Arsene to "rise above" fan nonsense

[Flavs]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16872145

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16872145)What a cunt

[Flavs]

And for those who cant work a computer


Arsenal boss Arsene Wenger insists he will rise above a protest planned by fans upset by recent performances.
Arsenal have taken just one point from their last four Premier League matches.
Some fans intend to cover empty seats with black bin liners at Saturday's match against Blackburn to highlight falling attendances at home matches.
"I feel we have to be above that and show our quality on the football pitch and not respond to every individual provocation," said Wenger.
Arsenal's last six Premier League games
Won: 1
Drawn: 2
Lost: 3
Goals scored: 6
Goals against: 8
Arsenal finished fourth in the Premier League in 2010-11, but they currently sit seventh - outside Champions League qualification and 17 points off the top.
Wenger himself has come in for criticism, most notably when he replaced Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain with Andrey Arshavin before Manchester United's winning goal in the 22 January league clash.
But the Frenchman, who has won the Premier League title three times since he was appointed in October 1996 and whose contract runs until June 2014, called on fans to maintain a sense of perspective.
"I believe we played 15 years on the trot in the Champions League, and we play in 10 days in the last 16 of the Champions League," he added.
"Ideally I want everybody to be completely happy and over the moon, but we live in a world where you have to accept that not everybody reacts the same."
Arsenal have claimed that attendances at their last three home league games have been in excess of 60,000, only marginally short of the 60,432 capacity.

[GP]

No one gives a shit what happened in the past.

He's a worse human being that Joseph Fritzl.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsene Wenger:

http://www.wwechamps.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/wwe2.jpg

[PGFC]

Is he going to get himself sent into the stands again then?

[Letters]

No one gives a shit what happened in the past.

He's a worse human being that Joseph Fritzl.

I'll be shouting Boo-urns.

WUMger :bow:

[Flavs]

Is he going to get himself sent into the stands again then?

At least there would be plenty of spare seats at the emirates

[Letters]

At least there would be plenty of spare seats at the emirates

So I was at the Emirates and I said to the bloke next to me.
OI!

:jaspercarrottwhobythewayisthatbirdfromtheoffice's dadyouknowthesecretaryonelucysomething:

[Flavs]

So I was at the Emirates and I said to the bloke next to me.
OI!

:jaspercarrottwhobythewayisthatbirdfromtheoffice's dadyouknowthesecretaryonelucysomething:


Shouting isn't allowed at the emirates you peasant

[LDG]

Black binliners is an awful idea.

They're probably just laughing at it...as most of the empty seats will be people who have already paid for a season ticket.

The only way to deal with "their sort", is to hit them where it hurts.


Right in the fucking testicles. VITA!!!!!!!

[LDG]

Or!!! And this is a good one....

A banner:

"We'll riot, blacken the name, and get you chucked out of Europe for good".

[Flavs]

Or!!! And this is a good one....

A banner:

"We'll riot, blacken the name, and get you chucked out of Europe for good".

Jesus christ man we arent scousers

[Niall_Quinn]

You're all just pathetic haters!

I hate haters!

[LDG]

I'm as bored as one at the moment.

EDIT: @Falvs

[Champagne Charlie]

Black binliners is an awful idea.



Agreed.

Although I am looking forward to watching the confusion of all the people who turn up 5 minutes after kickoff to find their seat covered by a binliner!

[LDG]

Agreed.

Although I am looking forward to watching the confusion of all the people who turn up 5 minutes after kickoff to find their seat covered by a binliner!

Especially the toff's who prefer heavy duty garden sacks.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Is he going to get himself sent into the stands again then?

Those that are actually in the stands will rip him to pieces. . .so you'd think he do best to stand on the touchline

[Flavs]

Especially the toff's who prefer heavy duty garden sacks.

"Did Ted leave this here? I thought he was fixing the drainage in the lower fields"

[LDG]

:lol:

[Fist of Lehmann]

Silly Wenger. The AST have already made an unequivocal statement regarding their line on the manager. Their bin liner protest is not about him, it's in protest of how the club is run.

Still, it hasn't stopped the media painting in that light, for the clicks.
Wouldn't be surprised if the protest has been framed to him in that way either.

[Letters]

We should make T-shirts, tbh

[LDG]

Silly Wenger. The AST have already made an unequivocal statement regarding their line on the manager. Their bin liner protest is not about him, it's in protest of how the club is run.

Still, it hasn't stopped the media painting in that light, for the clicks.
Wouldn't be surprised if the protest has been framed to him in that way either.

Have you got a copy of the statement FoL?? Just be interested to read it....

[Fist of Lehmann]

Check the news on the AST website:

http://arsenaltrust.org/home

[Marc Overmars]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16872145

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16872145)What a cunt

http://i.thisislondon.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/Arsene_415.jpg

[LDG]

Check the news on the AST website:

http://arsenaltrust.org/home

:good:

[Fist of Lehmann]

:good:You know what?

Reading further, I'm not sure this is an AST affliated protest at all.
In which case it may well be protest against the manager, organised by randoms. In lieu of any proper statement, how can you tell?

[Niall_Quinn]

Those bags should be filled with shit and thrown on the pitch. Theo needs some competition.

[alexander]

jesus if I hear Wenger banging on about quality anymore I will kick him in his French nuts. Christ change the record man, we have a serious lack of quality, thats why we cant win for shit. He is really getting on my tits now.

[fakeyank]

Finally some fans doing 'something' for a change! Wonder when the rest of the fans will grow some sort of balls! And some here wonder why AW is called a cunt.. :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There is only one way to deal with it, hostage taking, wait to the next board meeting, slip in undetected and hold the place up , hand in their resignations or enjoy a lead salad.

[Cripps_orig]

Nothing wrong with calling a cunt a cunt and dont let anyone tell you different

[Xhaka Can’t]

Finally some fans doing 'something' for a change! Wonder when the rest of the fans will grow some sort of balls! And some here wonder why AW is called a cunt.. :lol:

I don't wonder about that at all.

A mong's gonna be a mong.

[Özim]

The guy is like a broken record, we know he doesn't give a sh*t about the fans but the tw*t has the audacity to tell the f*cking papers as well.

It's unbelievable that's he's in such a comfortable position that the fans opinions realy don't matter to him at all.

As for the CL sh*t ::blah: who gives the toss about qualifying for the CL, not having a chance of winning it and then getting battered by the 1st decent team we meet, he really needs to get his head out of the clouds.

[Joker]

Wenger should stop acting the victim. He gets paid £6M a year and has clearly failed in doing his job properly as a manager, which is why we're languishing in 7th place this season. The fans have a right to protest, and I hope Wenger and the board get the message loud and clear.

[Fats]

I think Wenger understands that this is the end for him and he does not like it. He should have retired and moved on but his ego wont let him.

Any manager with a brain knows when you have lost the fans its only a matter of time.

A lot of people have given him time and IMO he has wasted so many opportunities to create something special.

Im lost to the way he thinks, he has become a robot, unwilling to move and grow like all of us have to do. Nobody in football deserves the amount of loyalty he has had without critisism to his failings. Even AF had it when Manu didnt win the league for 4 years and he changed.

I think Wenger is lost in all this and has not the intelligence to put things right.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I simply can't see Wenger recovering from this.

[Fats]

I simply can't see Wenger recovering from this.

He wont, and its a real shame. Wenger could have moved on a legend. He is now known as a stubborn dreamer.

He must leave at the end of this season or he will be regarded as badly as a lot of greedy players that see week in week out in the league. Here for the 6 million a season he gets and not for the club.

[Marc Overmars]

I think January was probably a resignation of sorts. We clearly needed to bolster the squad but once again we got nothing, maybe he knows he doesn't have long left therefore couldn't possibly invest the time and money in a big name.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Then we have already endured a few 'resignations'.

[Marc Overmars]

Then we have already endured a few 'resignations'.

Possibly, but we've always taken 4th for granted and that's something we can't do anymore.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Possibly, but we've always taken 4th for granted and that's something we can't do anymore.

I take it for granted on so far as I take it for granted it isn't happening despite the team eventually finishing 4th being by far, the weakest team to have done so in over ten years.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger should stop acting the victim. He gets paid £6M a year and has clearly failed in doing his job properly as a manager, which is why we're languishing in 7th place this season. The fans have a right to protest, and I hope Wenger and the board get the message loud and clear.

He's not playing the victim, never has. In your opionion and mine he has failed as a manger in the last 4 years but to his employers he has not hence why he is still in the job.



The guy is like a broken record, we know he doesn't give a sh*t about the fans but the tw*t has the audacity to tell the f*cking papers as well.

It's unbelievable that's he's in such a comfortable position that the fans opinions realy don't matter to him at all.

As for the CL sh*t ::blah: who gives the toss about qualifying for the CL, not having a chance of winning it and then getting battered by the 1st decent team we meet, he really needs to get his head out of the clouds.

Rubbish, he clearly loves the fans, just stubborn in his ways. I suppose he feels if people want to abuse me why should i give a shite about them. Say alot of things about aw but not caring about the fans is one thing you can never say.

As for who cares about the CL alot of fans do, no one wants to see us in the Europa league if their honest, nothing to say we will win it, id rather be in the CL with the best even if we get knocked out by the top teams.


I think Wenger understands that this is the end for him and he does not like it. He should have retired and moved on but his ego wont let him.

Any manager with a brain knows when you have lost the fans its only a matter of time.

A lot of people have given him time and IMO he has wasted so many opportunities to create something special.

Im lost to the way he thinks, he has become a robot, unwilling to move and grow like all of us have to do. Nobody in football deserves the amount of loyalty he has had without critisism to his failings. Even AF had it when Manu didnt win the league for 4 years and he changed.

I think Wenger is lost in all this and has not the intelligence to put things right.

Rubbish he is not even of retirment age silly thing to say, he could still be a top manager in a number or european clubs. His problem is he needs a new challenge and a bit of freshness in his life for the good of him.

To say he has not got the intelligence is nonsense, the man is clever, problem is too clever for his own good sometimes you feel. His cleverness use to be funny, we'd all get behind it, now its frustating some deem it piss taking.

Will he go end of the season, who knows. IMO i think he may go if he finishes the season without 4th and a trophy tbh.

[Fats]

Charlie before your childish attemp to dissmiss peoples opinions, why dont you look at the reasons for these rather than being a WUM. Your not even that good at it and personally I wouldnt debate with you because of the immature nature of them.

A couple of points though

1.Explain why Wenger is not playing the victim

2. Can you give me an example as to when Wenger has shown the fans any love and/or contempt?

3. Explain the concept of retirement and any age deemed?

4. Explain, or give an example of Wengers intelligence, and one of downright stupidity(the later will be easier to find)

Cheers

[Unai Tea]

Fans are generally a bunch of dickheads. Sport/competition is not played for fans. Fans allow the rewards of sport/competition to be higher (in some sports) but no athlete plays for the fans, they play for the competitive drive within them. Personally, fans should either support or fuck off. They are not part of the equation and never should be.

[Power n Glory]

Did Wenger say anything wrong in this interview? Noticed the title said 'nonsense' but that's not a quote from him. Just said the team needs to rise above it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Charlie before your childish attemp to dissmiss peoples opinions, why dont you look at the reasons for these rather than being a WUM. Your not even that good at it and personally I wouldnt debate with you because of the immature nature of them.

A couple of points though

1.Explain why Wenger is not playing the victim

2. Can you give me an example as to when Wenger has shown the fans any love and/or contempt?

3. Explain the concept of retirement and any age deemed?

4. Explain, or give an example of Wengers intelligence, and one of downright stupidity(the later will be easier to find)

Cheers

So because i never agreed with you and said nothing bad about Wenger, i'm a wum, I have never ever come on here with the intention to wind up anybody, if i offended you then i aoplogise.

[Özim]

Fans are generally a bunch of dickheads. Sport/competition is not played for fans. Fans allow the rewards of sport/competition to be higher (in some sports) but no athlete plays for the fans, they play for the competitive drive within them. Personally, fans should either support or fuck off. They are not part of the equation and never should be.
Sorry but that's totally wrong, without the fans there is no club, they pay for the tickets, buy the merchandise and the TV money comes from them....they are VERY important...to dismiss them is foolish and dangerous.

As for athletes playing for themselves and fans having no importance, explain why hoem games are easier if that's the case....if fans didn't matter away games would be just as easy to win. I agree players do play for themslves more these days, but fans have an impact, a bad reaction or positive open has an effect.......besides out players lack a competitive drive anyway on the whole.

[GP]

Fans are generally a bunch of dickheads. Sport/competition is not played for fans. Fans allow the rewards of sport/competition to be higher (in some sports) but no athlete plays for the fans, they play for the competitive drive within them. Personally, fans should either support or fuck off. They are not part of the equation and never should be.

Exactly

[Unai Tea]

Sorry but that's totally wrong, without the fans there is no club, they pay for the tickets, buy the merchandise and the TV money comes from them....they are VERY important...to dismiss them is foolish and dangerous.

As for athletes playing for themselves and fans having no importance, explain why hoem games are easier if that's the case....if fans didn't matter away games would be just as easy to win. I agree players do play for themslves more these days, but fans have an impact, a bad reaction or positive open has an effect.......besides out players lack a competitive drive anyway on the whole.

It's not totally wrong. The essence of sport is what goes on by those participating, not by those watching. Fans are peripheral. Without fans, there is football, without football there is just a bunch of people standing around for no apparent reason.

Do fans impact the play? Yes. Does having more fans paying more money mean more of a chance of making profits? Yes. But you don't organise your team and play in order to please fans. That's x-factor and big brother and all that shite. We don't vote to see who gets subbed every week (thank god). I don't want Wenger to alter the way he does business or picks his team to please fans. You don't run a club by pandering to public opinion. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he chooses to do or not do, but that's his job. He is central, I am peripheral. I can complain, wage a hate campaign online, boo at the games, but that should be water off a duck's back to what goes on at the centre. They should strive to win/suceed with whatever constraints they may have to deal with, whether financial, philosophical, imposed from without or self-imposed.

And players don't play for the fans. That's nonsense and has always been nonsense. Players play because they have it in them to compete and to strive for success. You think people who train their whole lives to be in the olympics in a completely irrelevant sport without any public interest do it for the fans? You compete because you can and because it's personally rewarding, if not enriching.

[Joker]

Football shouldn't be seen as simply a business, with the fans as consumers who don't feel any particular affiliation to the business other than to enjoy the product on display. Football clubs are embedded in communities, and many fans have supported their clubs for decades. Moreover, if you're disappointed with your football club, you don't just switch to another club, in the same way that you'd switch to an Apple iPhone if you're unhappy with your Blackberry. The club hierarchy should realise that show us some more respect.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It's not totally wrong. The essence of sport is what goes on by those participating, not by those watching. Fans are peripheral. Without fans, there is football, without football there is just a bunch of people standing around for no apparent reason.

Do fans impact the play? Yes. Does having more fans paying more money mean more of a chance of making profits? Yes. But you don't organise your team and play in order to please fans. That's x-factor and big brother and all that shite. We don't vote to see who gets subbed every week (thank god). I don't want Wenger to alter the way he does business or picks his team to please fans. You don't run a club by pandering to public opinion. That doesn't mean I agree with everything he chooses to do or not do, but that's his job. He is central, I am peripheral. I can complain, wage a hate campaign online, boo at the games, but that should be water off a duck's back to what goes on at the centre. They should strive to win/suceed with whatever constraints they may have to deal with, whether financial, philosophical, imposed from without or self-imposed.

And players don't play for the fans. That's nonsense and has always been nonsense. Players play because they have it in them to compete and to strive for success. You think people who train their whole lives to be in the olympics in a completely irrelevant sport without any public interest do it for the fans? You compete because you can and because it's personally rewarding, if not enriching.

Too right.

[Marc Overmars]

Jam Persie has a rather depressing but also valid point.

[Fats]

So because i never agreed with you and said nothing bad about Wenger, i'm a wum, I have never ever come on here with the intention to wind up anybody, if i offended you then i aoplogise.

Nobody cares who you agree with. However to call their opinion "rubbish" is disrespectful and uncalled for. If your opinion is different thats cool.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Nobody cares who you agree with. However to call their opinion "rubbish" is disrespectful and uncalled for. If your opinion is different thats cool.

Like i said if i offended you i apologise

[Unai Tea]

Jam Persie has a rather depressing but also valid point.

Its the kernel of a valid point taken to its logical extreme. It's the counter-point to the 'fan entitlement' line of argumentation. There is a happy medium. But I disagree vehemently with the notion of 'I spent a tenner on a arsenal hat therefore I demand respect and that my views are fully taken on board in terms of how the team plays, who plays, who gets sold and who gets brought in. Who do those monkeys running the club think they are?' I don't really see the sports team/fan relationship as a wholly sterile one either and there is often a symbiotic interaction and fans can play an important role. But one has to maintain a reasonable level of perspective.

The bottom line is that I think Wenger is right to focus on his team and do everything he feels is right to succeed, rather than worrying too much about fans' opinions or opprobrium. That doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to throttle him when he subbed Chamberlain off against Man Utd but there you go. And the premise of this thread, i..e how dare Wenger express the notion that his job is to get the best out of his team and not necessarily worry about fan opinion, is largely moot.

[Özim]

Whilst I agree with what you say, if the fans don't turn up, or watch the team on telly etc...there is no club, Arsenal would not exist without the fans and that's a fact.

I guarantee that if people stopped turning up you'd see changes, they're only able to be so dismissive because people keep turning up regardless. Wenger has his ideas of what is right etc, but it's been proven wrong for 6 years with failure after failure, the results don't lie and just because he's too stubborn to admit it it doesn't mean it isn't true.

A manager should be adaptable and react to failure and changes in the game, he fails to and thus whatever he may or may not think he's wrong. If someone who ignores everything around him thinks he's right, that does not make him so.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Six years of failure, blah blah blah.

It has not been six years of failure.

[Power n Glory]

It's no end product, that's for sure.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Whilst I agree with what you say, if the fans don't turn up, or watch the team on telly etc...there is no club, Arsenal would not exist without the fans and that's a fact.

I guarantee that if people stopped turning up you'd see changes, they're only able to be so dismissive because people keep turning up regardless. Wenger has his ideas of what is right etc, but it's been proven wrong for 6 years with failure after failure, the results don't lie and just because he's too stubborn to admit it it doesn't mean it isn't true.

A manager should be adaptable and react to failure and changes in the game, he fails to and thus whatever he may or may not think he's wrong. If someone who ignores everything around him thinks he's right, that does not make him so.

Depends what you define as Failure, Most wil say its only be 2-3 seasons of failure.

[Marc Overmars]

Doesn't matter what it is, 3, 4, 5 years.

We're all disappointed with the club and that's what needs to turn around.

[Cripps_orig]

When did he start this Youth Project crap? cos thats been a failure

[Özim]

Six years of failure, blah blah blah.

It has not been six years of failure.
I see it as 6 years of failure, we've not picked up any trophies in that time....that's failure for this club.

[Özim]

When did he start this Youth Project crap? cos thats been a failure
Pretty much.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I see it as 6 years of failure, we've not picked up any trophies in that time....that's failure for this club.

But GB is not classing not winning a trophy as Failure, As the target was top 4 for at leat 4 years andwe achived that, it was sucess.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It is not all about winning trophies - but that is the ambition. During the earlier part of this 6 years of 'failure', I've seen us play some great football, which if built on, should have been resulting in a successful side today.

[Marc Overmars]

Reaching the CL was an awesome achievement so that wasn't a failure. We bombed in the league of course to focus on that, but at least we had players back then who were capable of defying the odds like that in Europe, to potentially put a silver lining on a dismal season.

Does anyone expect a silver lining from the FA Cup or CL this year? No because we'll probably go out in the first difficult tie we face.

[Unai Tea]

Whilst I agree with what you say, if the fans don't turn up, or watch the team on telly etc...there is no club, Arsenal would not exist without the fans and that's a fact.

I guarantee that if people stopped turning up you'd see changes, they're only able to be so dismissive because people keep turning up regardless. Wenger has his ideas of what is right etc, but it's been proven wrong for 6 years with failure after failure, the results don't lie and just because he's too stubborn to admit it it doesn't mean it isn't true.

A manager should be adaptable and react to failure and changes in the game, he fails to and thus whatever he may or may not think he's wrong. If someone who ignores everything around him thinks he's right, that does not make him so.

Did you ever think to ask yourself why people keep turning up regardless? Is it because they feel the team requires their presence or is it because they desperately desire to continually be plugged in to a hyperreality centred around a sports club in order to find some manner of fulfillment/entertainment? Why do Stoke and other pub teams have fans? They obviously lack ambition and have been mired in a near century of dismal failure. Why do those silly feckers who support them keep showing up? Is it for the quality of their football or is it to be a part of something, however shitty and pathetic, which offers an interlude from normal reality. You should consider yourself lucky to at least get to watch half-decent football on occassion in these interludes from your own personal reality.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Did you ever think to ask yourself why people keep turning up regardless? Is it because they feel the team requires their presence or is it because they desperately desire to continually be plugged in to a hyperreality centred around a sports club in order to find some manner of fulfillment/entertainment? Why do Stoke and other pub teams have fans? They obviously lack ambition and have been mired in a near century of dismal failure. Why do those silly feckers who support them keep showing up? Is it for the quality of their football or is it to be a part of something, however shitty and pathetic, which offers an interlude from normal reality. You should consider yourself lucky to at least get to watch half-decent football on occassion in these interludes from your own personal reality.

:gp:

[Tipsychubbs]

Did you ever think to ask yourself why people keep turning up regardless? Is it because they feel the team requires their presence or is it because they desperately desire to continually be plugged in to a hyperreality centred around a sports club in order to find some manner of fulfillment/entertainment? Why do Stoke and other pub teams have fans? They obviously lack ambition and have been mired in a near century of dismal failure. Why do those silly feckers who support them keep showing up? Is it for the quality of their football or is it to be a part of something, however shitty and pathetic, which offers an interlude from normal reality. You should consider yourself lucky to at least get to watch half-decent football on occassion in these interludes from your own personal reality.


I think the problem is one of complacency. If you're a club with few resources and you're not very good, at least if you put the effort in to be all that you can be, then the fans will appreciate that.

If you're a club with good resources and you don't use them effectively to be all that you can be, then fans will be frustrated. We're a big club in a good position, but have allowed ourselves to be complacent, ever since those champions league places started increasing. Suddenly the bare minimum became all that was necessary, as long as the money kept rolling in. The finances have been managed in a way that sidelines success on the pitch, or at least puts It on the back burner. With a balanced point of view, of course the club needs and does well to be well run, self-sustaining and financially responsible. But we've gone too far in this direction without putting enough back onto the pitch; the same fans that are turning up each week with their hard earned dosh are being simply treated as consumers with no say in how they want the club to move forward. Being in a good position and being complacent is worse than being in a bad position and giving it your all.

Someone recently on this board made the comparison of AW to brain surgeon who was an alcoholic, and that applies to the club in general as well. In a great position, with superb potential to do great things, but instead of making the most of that position, sabotages itself with a weakness that destabilises itself from reaching its full potential.

This club with judicious, shrewd investment could be challenging for the league, aiming higher but it does not strive to at the moment. The fans want of course want to be entertained and to escape reality, but they do turn up to support a football team and a football manager, not to support a bank and a bank manager. If you're not giving back to the fans in striving to be all that you can be football wise, then understandably a good proportion of those fans will get jaded, and roll their eyes at the marketed “brand” of beautiful football and Champions League football (without the necessary investment to aim to win it), as having seen it all before but with no end product, in trying to be the best that you can be. If it was clear that serious effort was being made then I'm sure less people would complain, but rather, support those efforts.

[Unai Tea]

I think the problem is one of complacency. If you're a club with few resources and you're not very good, at least if you put the effort in to be all that you can be, then the fans will appreciate that.

If you're a club with good resources and you don't use them effectively to be all that you can be, then fans will be frustrated. We're a big club in a good position, but have allowed ourselves to be complacent, ever since those champions league places started increasing. Suddenly the bare minimum became all that was necessary, as long as the money kept rolling in. The finances have been managed in a way that sidelines success on the pitch, or at least puts It on the back burner. With a balanced point of view, of course the club needs and does well to be well run, self-sustaining and financially responsible. But we've gone too far in this direction without putting enough back onto the pitch; the same fans that are turning up each week with their hard earned dosh are being simply treated as consumers with no say in how they want the club to move forward. Being in a good position and being complacent is worse than being in a bad position and giving it your all.

Someone recently on this board made the comparison of AW to brain surgeon who was an alcoholic, and that applies to the club in general as well. In a great position, with superb potential to do great things, but instead of making the most of that position, sabotages itself with a weakness that destabilises itself from reaching its full potential.

This club with judicious, shrewd investment could be challenging for the league, aiming higher but it does not strive to at the moment. The fans want of course want to be entertained and to escape reality, but they do turn up to support a football team and a football manager, not to support a bank and a bank manager. If you're not giving back to the fans in striving to be all that you can be football wise, then understandably a good proportion of those fans will get jaded, and roll their eyes at the marketed “brand” of beautiful football and Champions League football (without the necessary investment to aim to win it), as having seen it all before but with no end product, in trying to be the best that you can be. If it was clear that serious effort was being made then I'm sure less people would complain, but rather, support those efforts.

I don't disagree with any of that. We're underperforming as a club and that's disappointing. The operating model is sound but it can be and should be tweaked a little to add more to the squad sooner. But it could just be a matter of timing. This season was going to be a wreck from the word go, and despite some highlights, hasn't been stellar. Maybe the progress made this year in certain areas can be built upon in the summer to put us in a better position to succeed next year. One can only hope.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Did you ever think to ask yourself why people keep turning up regardless? Is it because they feel the team requires their presence or is it because they desperately desire to continually be plugged in to a hyperreality centred around a sports club in order to find some manner of fulfillment/entertainment? Why do Stoke and other pub teams have fans? They obviously lack ambition and have been mired in a near century of dismal failure. Why do those silly feckers who support them keep showing up? Is it for the quality of their football or is it to be a part of something, however shitty and pathetic, which offers an interlude from normal reality. You should consider yourself lucky to at least get to watch half-decent football on occassion in these interludes from your own personal reality.

Utter rubbish, akin to saying why would a rational person stick with a relationship when the other person fails to meet standards. I mean with this sort of reasoning we all should ditch our girlfriends who have now become fat and friends who've always been alcoholics.

I hate it when the totality o"f fandom are demeaned as mere zombies and that's the simplistic picture your unnecessarily condescending verbose post paints.

[Kano]

Utter rubbish, akin to saying why would a rational person stick with a relationship when the other person fails to meet standards. I mean with this sort of reasoning we all should ditch our girlfriends who have now become fat and friends who've always been alcoholics.

I hate it when the totality o"f fandom are demeaned as mere zombies and that's the simplistic picture your unnecessarily condescending verbose post paints.

no it doesn't

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

no it doesn't

Oh then Tom please tell me what Dick actually meant?

[Unai Tea]

Oh then Tom please tell me what Dick actually meant?

What I meant was that fans support clubs, good and bad, because it fills a need they have to participate in something outside their normal reality. That's why they tend to stick around, even when things aren't necessarily so great, aka fat girlfriend and alcoholic friend in your analogy.

And my name's not Richard btw.

[fakeyank]

Wenger doesnt need to rise above fan nonsense. He needs to rise above his own nonsense first.

[Letters]

Do you think that's a clever post?
It isn't.

[fakeyank]

Do you think that's a clever post?
It isn't.

I think its very clever..

[Letters]

You live in America. The bar is very low.

[fakeyank]

You live in America. The bar is very low.

Its still higher than the UK..

[Letters]

QED.

The correct answer was "So is your face"

Thanks for playing though.

[IBK]

Its still higher than the UK..

See you were competing at least but I'm afraid that isn't good....

[Olivier's xmas twist]

FY :rose:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

What I meant was that fans support clubs, good and bad, because it fills a need they have to participate in something outside their normal reality. That's why they tend to stick around, even when things aren't necessarily so great, aka fat girlfriend and alcoholic friend in your analogy.

And my name's not Richard btw.

Yup and that's what I kind of have a problem with, the idea that supporting a team is that simplistic. For example the first point you made about people feeling the team needs their presence in order to progress is to me quite valid. I know a lot of gooners and more so other fans of other clubs who believe if they don't attend every game or watch it live their team is immediately at a disadvantage. Same way I know fans who use their weekends supporting their teams as escapism from reality as you pointed out. But I know far more people who combine both and far more complex reasons for supporting their clubs- which was why I brought the analogy of the fat girlfriend- so again, if I had a fat girlfriend, an alcoholic best friend or an invalid dad, would you really ask me why I kept pursuing a relationship with any/all three of them? I don't think you would and I don't think anyone needs to to pigeonhole fans or disrespect the experience by trying to compartmentalize it. It's complex and explaining why I am a fan would probably come out as unintelligible as me explaining why I loved someone.
Also the point you made that I as a gooner, should consider myself lucky or grateful that I don't support a smaller club that plays shit football, sorry, but f*ck that. He took his club for better or worse, I did the same, end of. Again if my girlfriend happened to be really pretty/rich you don't think constantly reminding me to appreciate those facts could go down the wrong way with me? Yes there is banter and animosity between fans but that should never becloud the mutual respect we should have for one another.
I am sorry if I came at you too strong but f*ck it, I do not in ANYWAY feel fortunate or privileged to be a fan, let alone an Arsenal fan. I do not feel fortunate to have witnessed some good football under AW, because even if it had been painful to watch, as it has been personally for me for a while now, I'd still be doing my thing as a fan. I do however feel fortunate to share this passion with so many others. Pre-Wenger I don't remember ever hearing this smug shit of being fortunate to be an Arsenal fan, and this kind of reasoning among a majority of the fans IMO is what has allowed the board and AW to successfully take us for such a mediocre ride for so long.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

And just so I don't get accused of inventing stuff:

"Perhaps we gave our fans
too much by winning the
Double. Once you've eaten
caviar, it is difficult to go
back to sausages."

Arsene Wenger, Arsenal
manager, after the
Arsenal fans booed a 1-1 draw
with Middlesbrough in
November 1998

www.independent.co.uk/sport/quotes-of-the-week-1189408.html

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Its still higher than the UK..

It's.

[Marc Overmars]

:rimshot:

[Coney]

It's.

... Monty Python's Flying Circus.

[Unai Tea]

Yup and that's what I kind of have a problem with, the idea that supporting a team is that simplistic. For example the first point you made about people feeling the team needs their presence in order to progress is to me quite valid. I know a lot of gooners and more so other fans of other clubs who believe if they don't attend every game or watch it live their team is immediately at a disadvantage. Same way I know fans who use their weekends supporting their teams as escapism from reality as you pointed out. But I know far more people who combine both and far more complex reasons for supporting their clubs- which was why I brought the analogy of the fat girlfriend- so again, if I had a fat girlfriend, an alcoholic best friend or an invalid dad, would you really ask me why I kept pursuing a relationship with any/all three of them? I don't think you would and I don't think anyone needs to to pigeonhole fans or disrespect the experience by trying to compartmentalize it. It's complex and explaining why I am a fan would probably come out as unintelligible as me explaining why I loved someone.
Also the point you made that I as a gooner, should consider myself lucky or grateful that I don't support a smaller club that plays shit football, sorry, but f*ck that. He took his club for better or worse, I did the same, end of. Again if my girlfriend happened to be really pretty/rich you don't think constantly reminding me to appreciate those facts could go down the wrong way with me? Yes there is banter and animosity between fans but that should never becloud the mutual respect we should have for one another.
I am sorry if I came at you too strong but f*ck it, I do not in ANYWAY feel fortunate or privileged to be a fan, let alone an Arsenal fan. I do not feel fortunate to have witnessed some good football under AW, because even if it had been painful to watch, as it has been personally for me for a while now, I'd still be doing my thing as a fan. I do however feel fortunate to share this passion with so many others. Pre-Wenger I don't remember ever hearing this smug shit of being fortunate to be an Arsenal fan, and this kind of reasoning among a majority of the fans IMO is what has allowed the board and AW to successfully take us for such a mediocre ride for so long.

You confuse what is essentially a real relationship with a fat girlfriend, alcoholic friend and invalid dad with a simulacrum of reality. You participate in 'arsenal football club' but there is no real relationship other than supplier and consumer. You can dress it up in any number of ways but that's what it is and why some people can't get their heads around the fact that the club seems to lack respect for its fans. How much respect should McDonald's show to its consumers? Why is Arsenal any different? The only real difference is probably you feel less emotionally attached to your Big Mac than to the players of the team and the various trappings, paraphenalia and regalia that come with the 'Arsenal Football Club' hyperreality. At McDonald's you pay for food, at Arsenal (or any other club) you pay for a spectacle and the emotions you feel, good or bad, are what you pay for to a varying degree.

In short, Arsenal is not your fat girlfriend and never will be. It may 'feel' similar - and you may get a stiffy at the thought of the fat russian disrobing - but that's not really the case. The reality of Arsenal Football Club is the team and manager and staff who create the spectacle and the activity we all choose to participate in. And I'm saying that the true, inner reality of Arsenal Football Club shouldn't concern itself with the fans and making the simulacrum seem more real, but rather they should get on with trying to achieve succcess on the pitch. In essence, Wenger says that the team should rise above fan displeasure at what they see as being a poor product or a failing relationship but instead, concern themselves with themselves and focus on the inner reality of what the club is about, i.e. what happens on the pitch. Basically, your feelings, real or imagined, shouldn't come into it for the team. They should win because they're athletes focussed on winning not because fans have boo'd or cheered.

And I never said anyone should feel fortunate or blessed to be an Arsenal fan. We all pay our way, to a greater or lesser extent, and generally we could have been stuck with worse clubs. But good or bad club, football or cricket, the general relationship between fan and sportsclub s essentially the same - there's an inner reality and there's a more accesible hyperreality which caters to viewing participants/consumers of the spectacle.

[Power n Glory]

You confuse what is essentially a real relationship with a fat girlfriend, alcoholic friend and invalid dad with a simulacrum of reality. You participate in 'arsenal football club' but there is no real relationship other than supplier and consumer. You can dress it up in any number of ways but that's what it is and why some people can't get their heads around the fact that the club seems to lack respect for its fans. How much respect should McDonald's show to its consumers? Why is Arsenal any different? The only real difference is probably you feel less emotionally attached to your Big Mac than to the players of the team and the various trappings, paraphenalia and regalia that come with the 'Arsenal Football Club' hyperreality. At McDonald's you pay for food, at Arsenal (or any other club) you pay for a spectacle and the emotions you feel, good or bad, are what you pay for to a varying degree.

In short, Arsenal is not your fat girlfriend and never will be. It may 'feel' similar - and you may get a stiffy at the thought of the fat russian disrobing - but that's not really the case. The reality of Arsenal Football Club is the team and manager and staff who create the spectacle and the activity we all choose to participate in. And I'm saying that the true, inner reality of Arsenal Football Club shouldn't concern itself with the fans and making the simulacrum seem more real, but rather they should get on with trying to achieve succcess on the pitch. In essence, Wenger says that the team should rise above fan displeasure at what they see as being a poor product or a failing relationship but instead, concern themselves with themselves and focus on the inner reality of what the club is about, i.e. what happens on the pitch. Basically, your feelings, real or imagined, shouldn't come into it for the team. They should win because they're athletes focussed on winning not because fans have boo'd or cheered.

And I never said anyone should feel fortunate or blessed to be an Arsenal fan. We all pay our way, to a greater or lesser extent, and generally we could have been stuck with worse clubs. But good or bad club, football or cricket, the general relationship between fan and sportsclub s essentially the same - there's an inner reality and there's a more accesible hyperreality which caters to viewing participants/consumers of the spectacle.

Too much French philosophy, my friend. :lol:

But you're right and on the money.

[LDG]

You confuse what is essentially a real relationship with a fat girlfriend, alcoholic friend and invalid dad with a simulacrum of reality. You participate in 'arsenal football club' but there is no real relationship other than supplier and consumer. You can dress it up in any number of ways but that's what it is and why some people can't get their heads around the fact that the club seems to lack respect for its fans. How much respect should McDonald's show to its consumers? Why is Arsenal any different? The only real difference is probably you feel less emotionally attached to your Big Mac than to the players of the team and the various trappings, paraphenalia and regalia that come with the 'Arsenal Football Club' hyperreality. At McDonald's you pay for food, at Arsenal (or any other club) you pay for a spectacle and the emotions you feel, good or bad, are what you pay for to a varying degree.

In short, Arsenal is not your fat girlfriend and never will be. It may 'feel' similar - and you may get a stiffy at the thought of the fat russian disrobing - but that's not really the case. The reality of Arsenal Football Club is the team and manager and staff who create the spectacle and the activity we all choose to participate in. And I'm saying that the true, inner reality of Arsenal Football Club shouldn't concern itself with the fans and making the simulacrum seem more real, but rather they should get on with trying to achieve succcess on the pitch. In essence, Wenger says that the team should rise above fan displeasure at what they see as being a poor product or a failing relationship but instead, concern themselves with themselves and focus on the inner reality of what the club is about, i.e. what happens on the pitch. Basically, your feelings, real or imagined, shouldn't come into it for the team. They should win because they're athletes focussed on winning not because fans have boo'd or cheered.

And I never said anyone should feel fortunate or blessed to be an Arsenal fan. We all pay our way, to a greater or lesser extent, and generally we could have been stuck with worse clubs. But good or bad club, football or cricket, the general relationship between fan and sportsclub s essentially the same - there's an inner reality and there's a more accesible hyperreality which caters to viewing participants/consumers of the spectacle.

Hmmm. Not so sure mate. Arsenal have McDonald'sed it up over the last 20 years, but prior to that, being a football club wasn't ALL about making money and business. You paid your entrace fee, yes, but it didn't go on transfers and wages and super-stadia. Local communities set up the club, and participated in activities WITH the club, WITH the players, be it at the pub, watching them play etc. The gate money was part of your membership to keep the club running.

It's called a club for a reason. It's like local sports and social clubs we go to, to watch our kids play, to have a game of snooker, to socialise.

Arsenal Football Club was built with that purpose in mind. It's more tribal than it is a hyperreality. Your Hyperreality is all about todays game, in the here and now, and what football is as a global brand.

You pay no heed to tribal instincts, like it is to be a patriot for example. And you ignore how the club has been built, how communities come together, how friends are made, and also how players react to that. It's only players of the last few years who have no concept of what it was to be part of a club, are money and trophy obsessed that back your view up. Not the teams gone by who lived and breathed their club, often staying for their career, and interacting with local communities.

It is a real relationship. A social one and a tribal one. Maybe not to the tourist of today's game, but certainly fromyears gone by....and that element still remains.

[Unai Tea]

Hmmm. Not so sure mate. Arsenal have McDonald'sed it up over the last 20 years, but prior to that, being a football club wasn't ALL about making money and business. You paid your entrace fee, yes, but it didn't go on transfers and wages and super-stadia. Local communities set up the club, and participated in activities WITH the club, WITH the players, be it at the pub, watching them play etc. The gate money was part of your membership to keep the club running.

It's called a club for a reason. It's like local sports and social clubs we go to, to watch our kids play, to have a game of snooker, to socialise.

Arsenal Football Club was built with that purpose in mind. It's more tribal than it is a hyperreality. Your Hyperreality is all about todays game, in the here and now, and what football is as a global brand.

You pay no heed to tribal instincts, like it is to be a patriot for example. And you ignore how the club has been built, how communities come together, how friends are made, and also how players react to that. It's only players of the last few years who have no concept of what it was to be part of a club, are money and trophy obsessed that back your view up. Not the teams gone by who lived and breathed their club, often staying for their career, and interacting with local communities.

It is a real relationship. A social one and a tribal one. Maybe not to the tourist of today's game, but certainly fromyears gone by....and that element still remains.

There is an issue of scale and level of commercialisation here. Those who theorise about hyperreality provide examples of what it is...disneyland being a common example. But between Disneyland and taking your kid to the park to have a go at the swings there is a middle ground. Where the relationship between fans and a sporting club lie on that scale is hard to know really. The more removed one is from the actual preparation and putting on an event/spectacle and the more one is a consumer held at arm's length, the more it looks like a hyperreality. As you suggest there are also other things to weigh up - tradition, history, tribalism/regionalism etc. There are a lot of different elements and there really isn't a simple answer nor is it simple to unravel the relationship/dialogue that goes on between a saint/demogogue/icon/sports star/sports club, etc and their adherents.

The only reason I threw that concept out there was to provide counterbalance to the perspective that we, the fans, are somehow at the centre of it all and should have, or have a right to have, a say about how things go. We are not unimportant but by the same token, we are not all important either. And while we are essentially consumers and choose to be so, although we'd not necessarily characterise it as such, most of us also do have a real emotional investment. Having said that I also have real emotional investment in some books, video games, films etc.

[LDG]

There is an issue of scale and level of commercialisation here. Those who theorise about hyperreality provide examples of what it is...disneyland being a common example. But between Disneyland and taking your kid to the park to have a go at the swings there is a middle ground. Where the relationship between fans and a sporting club lie on that scale is hard to know really. The more removed one is from the actual preparation and putting on an event/spectacle and the more one is a consumer held at arm's length, the more it looks like a hyperreality. As you suggest there are also other things to weigh up - tradition, history, tribalism/regionalism etc. There are a lot of different elements and there really isn't a simple answer nor is it simple to unravel the relationship/dialogue that goes on between a saint/demogogue/icon/sports star/sports club, etc and their adherents.

The only reason I threw that concept out there was to provide counterbalance to the perspective that we, the fans, are somehow at the centre of it all and should have, or have a right to have, a say about how things go. We are not unimportant but by the same token, we are not all important either. And while we are essentially consumers and choose to be so, although we'd not necessarily characterise it as such, most of us also do have a real emotional investment. Having said that I also have real emotional investment in some books, video games, films etc.

:good:

[Özim]

I think what people might find is that if these sorts of policies and ideas continue the stadium will no longer be close to full, you can't keep insulting people's intelligence and treating them like meaningless idiots forever when they're hundreds or thousands of pounds to watch a game.

The fact is if the fans voted with their feet and didn't pay to go an watch matches you'd be seeing changes I guarantee it and by that token they are all important. We don't play great football, we don't have many top players, we don't spend on quality players and we don't achieve any success, when you're paying the kind of money the club demands after a while these issues will lead to people turning away.

It's the fans that let the club get away with this sh*t at the end of the day, it's sad that the board and manager can be so patronising and insulting to the people who put money in their pocket really.

You want to see what happens to clubs without many fans who turn up to game, look at MK Dons or Wimbledon as they use to be, they had to sell alll their best players to survive until they got relegated, now they're in a lower league with next to no money and next to no chance of ever getting back into the PL.

[Xhaka Can’t]

que?

[Özim]

que?
quoi?

[Xhaka Can’t]

quoi?

si, I mean oui.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think what people might find is that if these sorts of policies and ideas continue the stadium will no longer be close to full, you can't keep insulting people's intelligence and treating them like meaningless idiots forever when they're hundreds or thousands of pounds to watch a game.

The fact is if the fans voted with their feet and didn't pay to go an watch matches you'd be seeing changes I guarantee it and by that token they are all important. We don't play great football, we don't have many top players, we don't spend on quality players and we don't achieve any success, when you're paying the kind of money the club demands after a while these issues will lead to people turning away.

It's the fans that let the club get away with this sh*t at the end of the day, it's sad that the board and manager can be so patronising and insulting to the people who put money in their pocket really.

You want to see what happens to clubs without many fans who turn up to game, look at MK Dons or Wimbledon as they use to be, they had to sell alll their best players to survive until they got relegated, now they're in a lower league with next to no money and next to no chance of ever getting back into the PL.

Wrong, the fans are putting money into the club they love, thats why they continue to go and support their team instead of slamming them on MB's.

[Özim]

si, I mean oui.
Nein :sulk:

[Özim]

Wrong, the fans are putting money into the club they love, thats why they continue to go and support their team instead of slamming them on MB's.
I'm sorry but there comes a point when people are taking the p*ss out of you that if you have an ounce of intelligence you react to that. Fans won't keep turning up if things continue, regardless of the love for the club, money doesn't grow on trees.

[Coney]

Nein :sulk:

Da

[Coney]

I'm sorry but there comes a point when people are taking the p*ss out of you that if you have an ounce of intelligence you react to that.

So when will you react?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Da

Da da da.

[Özim]

So when will you react?
I'm waiting for the full moon.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I'm sorry but there comes a point when people are taking the p*ss out of you that if you have an ounce of intelligence you react to that. Fans won't keep turning up if things continue, regardless of the love for the club, money doesn't grow on trees.

Fans will still go regardless, it may not be the current fans but a new bunch, and the TPTB know it,our waiting lists are full so even if we lost a full fans the they know numbers can be made up.

[Coney]

I'm waiting for the full moon.

http://209.85.48.11/3304/191/emo/moon2.gif

[Özim]

Fans will still go regardless, it may not be the current fans but a new bunch, and the TPTB know it,our waiting lists are full so even if we lost a full fans the they know numbers can be made up.
Waiting lists disappear quickly especially when the prices are that high and you're delivering sh*t on the pitch and achieving nothing. Fans of other clubs have made a stand before successfully, people power is very effective.

It's getting much easier to get tickets these days what does that tell you?

[IBK]

There is an issue of scale and level of commercialisation here. Those who theorise about hyperreality provide examples of what it is...disneyland being a common example. But between Disneyland and taking your kid to the park to have a go at the swings there is a middle ground. Where the relationship between fans and a sporting club lie on that scale is hard to know really. The more removed one is from the actual preparation and putting on an event/spectacle and the more one is a consumer held at arm's length, the more it looks like a hyperreality. As you suggest there are also other things to weigh up - tradition, history, tribalism/regionalism etc. There are a lot of different elements and there really isn't a simple answer nor is it simple to unravel the relationship/dialogue that goes on between a saint/demogogue/icon/sports star/sports club, etc and their adherents.

The only reason I threw that concept out there was to provide counterbalance to the perspective that we, the fans, are somehow at the centre of it all and should have, or have a right to have, a say about how things go. We are not unimportant but by the same token, we are not all important either. And while we are essentially consumers and choose to be so, although we'd not necessarily characterise it as such, most of us also do have a real emotional investment. Having said that I also have real emotional investment in some books, video games, films etc.

:good:

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

@ Jam Persie

It's clear we're not going to get close to any form of understanding with this back and forth as we clearly see the world in different ways. Appreciating that allows me to recognise the honesty in your stance so I'll leave it at that :good: (also not hindered by your posts being a completely depressing motherf****r) :)

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Waiting lists disappear quickly especially when the prices are that high and you're delivering sh*t on the pitch and achieving nothing. Fans of other clubs have made a stand before successfully, people power is very effective.

It's getting much easier to get tickets these days what does that tell you?

Few fans are upset, nothing the club can handle, so as we win a cup or start playing beautiful footie again, it will be much harder to go to games.

[fakeyank]

Few fans are upset, nothing the club can handle, so as we win a cup or start playing beautiful footie again, it will be much harder to go to games.

Under Vinegar, we are not going to win anything.. might get back to playing a better version of the tippy tappy bollocks but even thats not going to bring the fans back..

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Under Vinegar, we are not going to win anything.. might get back to playing a better version of the tippy tappy bollocks but even thats not going to bring the fans back..

Thats why we had high numbers a couple of seasons ago, people are happy to see us play beautiful football, its only a few fans who despreately wanted a trophy.

[LDG]

Thats why we had high numbers a couple of seasons ago, people are happy to see us play beautiful football, its only a few fans who despreately wanted a trophy.

Nah.

Peoepl carried on coming along, a) because you could see the potential in the team and b) because people trusted in Wenger and his "Nose"

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Nah.

Peoepl carried on coming along, a) because you could see the potential in the team and b) because people trusted in Wenger and his "Nose"

Maybe, but from Phone in's variours forums, talking to mates who had season tickets, it seems people went because we played te best footie and it was worth the ticket etc.

Its only recently that gooners have been desperate for us to win a trophy because 4 years ago who wanted us to win the cc, now we all want to.

I agree with point b though.

[Özim]

Best football? That's a fallacy, we haven't been one of the best footballing teams for years....people still harp on about our great football but in reality it's really not that good, it's predictable, ineffective and not direct enough and often ends in us wasting chances of creating goals (or missing them of course).

I cringe when I hear people say we play the best football, have they actually watched us in the last few years? Pre 2005 we were fantastic, but it's been downhill from then on and we're not in the least bit entertaining most of the time these days. Unfortunately Wenger still lives in this little bubble where he thinks he's entertaining everyone and giving them value for money.

There's nothing entertaining about watching a largely brainless bunch overpassing the ball and picking the wrong option time and time again, nor it is entertaining to watch a defence so prone to errors.

[LDG]

Best football? That's a fallacy, we haven't been one of the best footballing teams for years....people still harp on about our great football but in reality it's really not that good, it's predictable, ineffective and not direct enough and often ends in us wasting chances of creating goals (or missing them of course).

I cringe when I hear people say we play the best football, have they actually watched us in the last few years? Pre 2005 we were fantastic, but it's been downhill from then on and we're not in the least bit entertaining most of the time these days. Unfortunately Wenger still lives in this little bubble where he thinks he's entertaining everyone and giving them value for money.

There's nothing entertaining about watching a largely brainless bunch overpassing the ball and picking the wrong option time and time again, nor it is entertaining to watch a defence so prone to errors.

I think what Charlie means, is that people were going along post-2005 because of what Wenger had done with the side for the previous 8 years.

i.e they'd been wined and dined on Henry, Bergkamp etc, and naturally assumed the teams would on producing football of that standard.

Tourists came to see the new stadium, and what all the fuss was about....and because many people were unable to get tickets at Highbury, demand was so high.

The drop off has happened in the last couple of years, mainly because:

i) Ticket prices - People can't afford it during a recession, especially with a 6% hike
ii) Our unfailing ability to seem like we're going places, top of league, in four comps....and bang, we implode

People were still going before that because:

i) Fabregas, RVP, Arshavin, Walcott, Nasri to name a few. Big name players, in a big shiny stadium, at a big club
ii) The football, is better than you see at most grounds in the country (Though I agree with you, tippy tappy was boring...prefer the cut and thrust and pace which we have a bit more of now). But to the neutral, or to kids, to families etc, it was still entertaining.

And the people that still go, are not mugs. They go because they support the team through thick and thin :shrug:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I think what Charlie means, is that people were going along post-2005 because of what Wenger had done with the side for the previous 8 years.

i.e they'd been wined and dined on Henry, Bergkamp etc, and naturally assumed the teams would on producing football of that standard.

Tourists came to see the new stadium, and what all the fuss was about....and because many people were unable to get tickets at Highbury, demand was so high.

The drop off has happened in the last couple of years, mainly because:

i) Ticket prices - People can't afford it during a recession, especially with a 6% hike
ii) Our unfailing ability to seem like we're going places, top of league, in four comps....and bang, we implode

People were still going before that because:

i) Fabregas, RVP, Arshavin, Walcott, Nasri to name a few. Big name players, in a big shiny stadium, at a big club
ii) The football, is better than you see at most grounds in the country (Though I agree with you, tippy tappy was boring...prefer the cut and thrust and pace which we have a bit more of now). But to the neutral, or to kids, to families etc, it was still entertaining.

And the people that still go, are not mugs. They go because they support the team through thick and thin :shrug:

This, yep you got it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Best football? That's a fallacy, we haven't been one of the best footballing teams for years....people still harp on about our great football but in reality it's really not that good, it's predictable, ineffective and not direct enough and often ends in us wasting chances of creating goals (or missing them of course).I cringe when I hear people say we play the best football, have they actually watched us in the last few years? Pre 2005 we were fantastic, but it's been downhill from then on and we're not in the least bit entertaining most of the time these days. Unfortunately Wenger still lives in this little bubble where he thinks he's entertaining everyone and giving them value for money.

There's nothing entertaining about watching a largely brainless bunch overpassing the ball and picking the wrong option time and time again, nor it is entertaining to watch a defence so prone to errors.

Im like you, i prefer the fast attacking counter stuff we used to play, id love how we'd be in one box to another in a short time, so like PNG said in another thread, we should go back to that Philsophy.

Others however seem to think we were the best ticket in town 18 months ago, it was all "if i could want any team it would be Arsenal". Even Barca players said we were the next best team to them tbh.