Is it terminal?

[IBK]

We all know what our problems are, and most ask questions about the club's goals. It hurts seeing us consolidate our status as also rans each year, when we were with the best not so long ago, and this is why it seems so negative all the time now.

But I wonder whether a fresh way to look at it is whether we think this is a temporary, rather than terminal, decline? Are we gambling everything on rigorous application of FFP? Could we win a cup and turn it around? Do you still have hope that a change of heart/regime will get us back to the top of English football?

[Letters]

We're not in decline, we're stagnating.
I do think we're looking longer term and IMO being too conservative. On the other hand we have to live within our means, City and Chelsea can do what they like and FFP is unlikely to have much effect. It's very hard to compete in the current football climate. Can Wenger do it? Doesn't seem so. Can anyone? Highly doubtful IMO.
7 years without a trophy isn't good enough for the modern Arsenal. 3rd place behind a team who have spent a billion quid to buy the title and another with arguably the best manager of all time is hardly a disaster though.

[Cripps_orig]

We've stood still for years and if we keep doing that then we will eventually go backwards.

We finished 3rd in a car crash of a season so imagine how good we'd be if we gave a toss during a season. We'd win the league at a canter

[Letters]

Rubbish.

[Ollie the Optimist]

the club have been banking on ffp working, but they have to change that as this summer has given the final proof it will never work.

[Cripps_orig]

I must say, i am intrigued in what our excuse will be to being shit when FFP is in use.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

the club have been banking on ffp working, but they have to change that as this summer has given the final proof it will never work.

care to explain why?

[Ollie the Optimist]

care to explain why?

well given there have been about four players signed this window, and half a billion quid spent on them says to me they dont give a shit.

you have city selling adesawhore to spurs, and then subsidising his wages. you ahve hazard going to chelsea, costing them 70 million including fee and wages, ibrahimovics and silvas deal, fees and wages together will cost 170 million for psg.

proof it wont work because no one gives a fuck about it

[Letters]

I must say, i am intrigued in what our excuse will be to being shit when FFP is in use.
Finishing 3rd behind the two Manchester sides, one of whom is only above us because they threw a billion quid around is 'shit'?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

well given there have been about four players signed this window, and half a billion quid spent on them says to me they dont give a shit.

you have city selling adesawhore to spurs, and then subsidising his wages. you ahve hazard going to chelsea, costing them 70 million including fee and wages, ibrahimovics and silvas deal, fees and wages together will cost 170 million for psg.

proof it wont work because no one gives a fuck about it

if anything that proves it will work because teams are going for one last splash in the sea before the rules are tightened. why are chelsea all of a sudden going all out to replace an ageing team? because roman fears ffp will actually work. of course whether it does or not is something we have to wait and see.

theoretically speaking, it should put clubs like chelsea in the shitter. they can spend bucket loads on players (like they have been this summer) in order to clear the dead wood out, but what happens in 8-10 years time when hazard, marin, oscar all retire? they'll have the same problems. chelsea aren't exactly renowned for their academy so that puts even more pressure on them once ffp is implemented; at least teams like city have always had a good academy to rely on so can go down the path of investing in youth. chelsea haven't got the patience for that; over the past decade they've invested a shit load into the academy with little success. frank arnesen was supposed to be this holy revolutionary figure but he pissed off to hamburg last summer and gave up.

in 10 years time teams like chelsea (hopefully) won't be able to spend big money to replace an ageing squad, so hypothetically speaking, that should spell the end of them. obviously it's never as easy as that but one can hope.

the problem will be loopholes such as bumping up merchandise figures to compensate for higher spending, or abramovich sponsoring chelsea- a bit like man city and their 'lucrative' shirt deal last year; only the lucrative deal was sheikh mansour linking city up with his own company, effectively allowing unlimited investment into the club with little red tape preventing it.

this is where governing bodies must step in to prevent opportunistic behaviour.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It has seemed fairly clear that the limit of our ambitions now is to make money. Everything this Club has strived for over the past 10 years or so has been geared towards increasing the worth of shareholdings with the bare minimum of the Club's playing resources used to achieve that.

Consequently we are stagnating, but have been stagnating at a level easily acceptable for those running and owning the Club to profit from it at levels that probably haven't occurred anywhere else in the entire history of football in this country. Every resource at this Club has been employed to ensure that.

The best I can see us doing in future as things stand, is stagnating. But really, what do the Board care? They've taken the bulk of all they can take out of the Club and now it's Stan's turn.

[IBK]

Interesting points.

Re FFP - I think I'd agree that the financially doped clubs are hedging their bets - and that the model is to go for one last mega-splurge just in case.

As to whether we are stagnating or going backwards. From our league position we are stagnating, but given our patetrn of losing our best players (and consequently our ability to attract real quality), its hard to escape the feeling that we are in reality drifting backwards. Also, there used to be a fairly defined gap between top four and the rest - now Citeh and Spurs have gatecrashed the top 4 party, and it's more of a fight for us to stay there.

GB's point about equilibrium is very hard to argue with. All our transfer dealings (or lack of them) over the past 7 years point to the club insisting on the finest of balances between investment and CL football, and boy have we come near to fucking it up a couple of times. And this is simply not an approach that will deliver success.

And whatever his personal ambitions are (I would say that he remains driven to win things but misguided about his ability to do so, rather than having thrown in the towel), our manager has been both an asset and a liabilty in the club's situation. Asset because I doubt anyone could have kept us top 4 with the resources he has. Liabilty because paradoxically for someone so dedicated to being thrifty he has gambled too much of the club's income on rewarding sub-standard players.

A risky business. But I worry about the result. because reputations change, and our club's reputation is, and is not likely to become one of a team on the up.

[LDG]

Honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Any thoughts or feelings about what I think is going on, are all just conjecture, and whenever I feel like we're going in the right direction, the club go and piss all over my flame.

The only thing that is abundently clear nowadays, is that football is completely and utterly crooked. The "game" is still there, but the tradition and passion has been lost. It's that horrible stench of "celebrity" and Disneyland that seems to fester around every turn.

If it wasn't for the attachment with the club, I would ignore it, like I ignore the X-factor and pretty much anything else cooked up to brainwash the public. It's like finding out you've been adopted. The love is still there, but you feel like nothing is real anymore.

We'll never know what's really going on. It's politics, media and money. There is very little "football" left in the whole thing.

I just hope that the likes of Wilshere, Frimpong, Chesney and some of the other young lads coming on, have a bit more loyalty in them, else it's all for bollocks anyway. They're the only ones who can stop the rot. The players. They have the ability, and they also hold pretty much all of the cards.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Wonderful post LDG, wonderful and sad.

[Letters]

Honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Any thoughts or feelings about what I think is going on, are all just conjecture, and whenever I feel like we're going in the right direction, the club go and piss all over my flame.

The only thing that is abundently clear nowadays, is that football is completely and utterly crooked. The "game" is still there, but the tradition and passion has been lost. It's that horrible stench of "celebrity" and Disneyland that seems to fester around every turn.

If it wasn't for the attachment with the club, I would ignore it, like I ignore the X-factor and pretty much anything else cooked up to brainwash the public. It's like finding out you've been adopted. The love is still there, but you feel like nothing is real anymore.

We'll never know what's really going on. It's politics, media and money. There is very little "football" left in the whole thing.

I just hope that the likes of Wilshere, Frimpong, Chesney and some of the other young lads coming on, have a bit more loyalty in them, else it's all for bollocks anyway. They're the only ones who can stop the rot. The players. They have the ability, and they also hold pretty much all of the cards.
:good: I very specifically follow Arsenal these days, not football. I couldn't give a monkeys about the hoopla surrounding the game these days, I pretty much never watch neutral games. I just don't care which billionaire's team beats which other billionaire's team. Probably should give it all up and follow Barnet. It'll be crap but at least it'll be a bit more real.

[Power n Glory]

We're still in the top 4 and Wenger gets a lot of credit for that but in my opinion, we're in the top four because clubs like Spurs, Liverpool and Villa keep shooting themselves in the foot with management changes and internal problems. They can never sustain consistent run for the top four each season because they keep changing managers and that has kept us alive. Spurs are complete fools. If they'd have kept Harry, we'd have had a serious challenge on our hands next season because they'd all know what they're capable of. But now, firing Harry puts them back into a tranisition period and nobody knows exactly what to expect from them under under AVB.

The same goes for Liverpool. They have the resources to overtake us but keep appointing useless managers and going for wild cards. It also helps that they've had ownership squabbles. But I they showed common sense and appointed a manager that has some real credentials and has actually won a league title in a major European league, they would have been our main threats by now. Let's hope they keep doing what they're doing.

Villa was another team that looked to be challenging but they dropped off because of management and ownership changes as well. They looked like a team on the up at one point but have fallen off badly in recent seasons.

It's a good thing we've had stability here at Arsenal and it's helped to keep us afloat. But if we don't want to end up like the above mentioned teams then we seriously need to think about Wenger's replacement soon, make sure the new boss is given enough time to build a proper squad and also get our house in order regarding ownership. We really can't afford to have a moment of uncertainty in 2-3 years time because I can see Spurs and Liverpool finally overtaking us if they stick with their current managers and we continue to bleed players. Also, Wenger might not be here in the near future. This may be his last contract with us. We need to prepare because he'd be going when we're most vulnerable and while our rivals are on the rise.

[Joker]

As others have said, the sole purpose of Arsenal seems to be to maximise shareholder value, with the football side of things just a means to achieve this end. This is why the club is struggling to sell season tickets. Most football fans aren't coming to the match to see an investment, they're coming to watch the football team they've supported throughout their life, and getting patronising drivel from PHW about how we shouldn't complain because we haven't been relegated just shows how out of touch the board are. Then there's Stan's complete silence and hands off approach which suggests someone uninterested in the club and treating it just as another investment. If we can get some people in who are football men into the board, maybe the decline is not terminal. However, the way shares are distributed is such a closed shop, I think this will be next to impossible unless Usmanov takes over.

[Power n Glory]

Honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Any thoughts or feelings about what I think is going on, are all just conjecture, and whenever I feel like we're going in the right direction, the club go and piss all over my flame.

The only thing that is abundently clear nowadays, is that football is completely and utterly crooked. The "game" is still there, but the tradition and passion has been lost. It's that horrible stench of "celebrity" and Disneyland that seems to fester around every turn.

If it wasn't for the attachment with the club, I would ignore it, like I ignore the X-factor and pretty much anything else cooked up to brainwash the public. It's like finding out you've been adopted. The love is still there, but you feel like nothing is real anymore.

We'll never know what's really going on. It's politics, media and money. There is very little "football" left in the whole thing.

I just hope that the likes of Wilshere, Frimpong, Chesney and some of the other young lads coming on, have a bit more loyalty in them, else it's all for bollocks anyway. They're the only ones who can stop the rot. The players. They have the ability, and they also hold pretty much all of the cards.

A bit strong to lay this all at the players feet. This is something for UEFA, Fifa and the clubs to sort out. They're the biggest whores in the game and most corrupt as seen by the way Fifa reps whore themselves out for World Cup bids. Qatar is a key example. It's not even fucking possible to host a World Cup there but Fifa went with it anyway because money talks.

Our club...look how they've all sold out to Stan. The way we're going after the big marketing bucks. The clubs have to get their priorities straight too. How the hell have they put the burden on the fans to financially sustain our club while pocketing record profits through shares? Why is a wage structure in place for the players and the burdens on them to accept less and go without accolades while they're all enjoying the gravy train? I include Wenger on that as well because he preaches equality and gives this false notion of a football eutopia while watching what goes on at the top level and saying nothing. The players are powerless to change things and there are people and organisations in better positions best suited to address the problem.

[LDG]

A bit strong to lay this all at the players feet. This is something for UEFA, Fifa and the clubs to sort out. They're the biggest whores in the game and most corrupt as seen by the way Fifa reps whore themselves out for World Cup bids. Qatar is a key example. It's not even fucking possible to host a World Cup there but Fifa went with it anyway because money talks.

Our club...look how they've all sold out to Stan. The way we're going after the big marketing bucks. The clubs have to get their priorities straight too. How the hell have they put the burden on the fans to financially sustain our club while pocketing record profits through shares? Why is a wage structure in place for the players and the burdens on them to accept less and go without accolades while they're all enjoying the gravy train? I include Wenger on that as well because he preaches equality and gives this false notion of a football eutopia while watching what goes on at the top level and saying nothing. The players are powerless to change things and there are people and organisations in better positions best suited to address the problem.

Hold up son.

I know you like disagreeing with me, but read what I've said will you.

My hope rests with our young players is all I'm saying. They're the only ones I believe in, and HOPE can move this club on. By not selling out, and playing football because they want to play football. I believe in their talent, and I believe it can form part of a winning team.

Purely and simply because I don't trust any other c.u.n.t at this club to do it.

[Power n Glory]

Hold up son.

I know you like disagreeing with me, but read what I've said will you.

My hope rests with our young players is all I'm saying. They're the only ones I believe in, and HOPE can move this club on. By not selling out, and playing football because they want to play football. I believe in their talent, and I believe it can form part of a winning team.

Purely and simply because I don't trust any other c.u.n.t at this club to do it.

I've read your post and that part about showing loyalty is the sticking point. Why would our young players show loyalty when they're in this crooked system and none of the main decision makers have an ounce of loyalty to the game? I hear what you're saying but the burden IMO is always on the players. The top men have to lead by example.

[LDG]

I've read your post and that part about showing loyalty is the sticking point. Why would our young players show loyalty when they're in this crooked system and none of the main decision makers have an ounce of loyalty to the game? I hear what you're saying but the burden IMO is always on the players. The top men have to lead by example.

They do have quite a bit of pull power tbf. You only have to look at Ade, Rooney, Ronaldo, Torres, Nasri etc etc to see how they can engineer moves themselves.

But that's still not my point.

This was Arsenal specific, as the OP was being Arsenal specific. It's about the clubs goals. And what I'm saying, is that our players (in the short term at least) are the only ones that can, IMO, influence how we move on over the next few years. Because it's as clear as mud, nothing else is going to change.

[Power n Glory]

That's still too much of a burden on the players and it's about time the focus went on the organisations. It's like constantly blaming refs for making wrong decisions while idiots in Uefa like Platini have the power to introduce technology to help progression but refuse to.

The focus has to go on the Board and manager. As I said in a previous post, what did Gazidsi and Wenger say to RVP in that meeting for him to believe that we're going in the wrong direction? Why isn't anyone concerned with that?

[LDG]

Of course we're concerned with that! OR. I just don't give a fuck anymore, because I'm sick of the politics (see my original post), and all I'm concerned with now, is seeing football.

Like I said in my original post, I want to see the players going out there and playing like their lives depended on it, because they love the game, and they love the club. THAT'S ALL I WANT. And it's not too much to fucking ask, because they earn enough, and it comes out of my fucking pocket!!

Yet I still have hope and faith in Wilshere and Frimpong and Chezzer (like I said in my original post) because I have to believe that something can change at this club, because (ARSENAL SPECIFIC) nothing else is going to change over the next few years (as I said in my second post, after my original post).


/GRRRRRRR

[IBK]

Honestly, I don't know what to think anymore. Any thoughts or feelings about what I think is going on, are all just conjecture, and whenever I feel like we're going in the right direction, the club go and piss all over my flame.

The only thing that is abundently clear nowadays, is that football is completely and utterly crooked. The "game" is still there, but the tradition and passion has been lost. It's that horrible stench of "celebrity" and Disneyland that seems to fester around every turn.

If it wasn't for the attachment with the club, I would ignore it, like I ignore the X-factor and pretty much anything else cooked up to brainwash the public. It's like finding out you've been adopted. The love is still there, but you feel like nothing is real anymore.

We'll never know what's really going on. It's politics, media and money. There is very little "football" left in the whole thing.

I just hope that the likes of Wilshere, Frimpong, Chesney and some of the other young lads coming on, have a bit more loyalty in them, else it's all for bollocks anyway. They're the only ones who can stop the rot. The players. They have the ability, and they also hold pretty much all of the cards.

You know - this is what I beat myself up most about. I agree 100% with you - and its really sad that these days, unless you follow the natural resources billions then you are almost bound to decline as a football club.

But would we feel the same feelings of depression if Kroenke wasn't such a tight-fisted ****? Its easy to take the moral ground and say yes - but the problem is that ultimately football is about what happens for 90 minutes on the pitch, and when you have the best striker in the country scoring the winning goal over your main rivals in the 90th minute the last thing on your mind is going to be how you reached that point. I like to think that I care about morals/ethics, but when we were winning titles 10 years ago, I wasn't thinking about the finacial constraints on Coventry or Southampton.

Its the same in football as it is becoming in any other walk of life. A melting pot of avarice; short term-ism and lack of real values. Are the players themselves ultimately responsible? Most of them are thick as pig shit and morally stunted. I blame the money men more. The agents; the lawyers; the sell out shareholders...and to an extent we fans are to blame as well. We keep buying the over-priced tickets to see something more resembling WWF by the day, and lapping up the football celebrity gossip on the back pages.

[LDG]

You know - this is what I beat myself up most about. I agree 100% with you - and its really sad that these days, unless you follow the natural resources billions then you are almost bound to decline as a football club.

But would we feel the same feelings of depression if Kroenke wasn't such a tight-fisted ****? Its easy to take the moral ground and say yes - but the problem is that ultimately football is about what happens for 90 minutes on the pitch, and when you have the best striker in the country scoring the winning goal over your main rivals in the 90th minute the last thing on your mind is going to be how you reached that point. I like to think that I care about morals/ethics, but when we were winning titles 10 years ago, I wasn't thinking about the finacial constraints on Coventry or Southampton.

Its the same in football as it is becoming in any other walk of life. A melting pot of avarice; short term-ism and lack of real values. Are the players themselves ultimately responsible? Most of them are thick as pig shit and morally stunted. I blame the money men more. The agents; the lawyers; the sell out shareholders...and to an extent we fans are to blame as well. We keep buying the over-priced tickets to see something more resembling WWF by the day, and lapping up the football celebrity gossip on the back pages.

For me it just comes down to who's kicking the ball on the pitch at the end of it I guess. That's what it's all about.

Of course I blame the money men for ruining the game.

But like you say, regardless of money, if Jack smacks one home against Spurs on 90 mins, that's all I give a fuck about....and it's why I have my hope invested in the players.

[Globalgunner]

The future i think will very much resemble the present, if nothing changes. If the management of the team thinks that striving to win things is either unattainable and/or uneconomic, then who among the players is going to hang around for the long term. Its a charade. The kids of today will be the RVPs of tommorrow. The manager`s ONLY focus must be to win, it is the constant broadening of Wengers portfolio to include even the napkins used at the upper level diner, that has left us in limbo. True we cannot pay the astronomic wages paid by City and Real Madrid, and now PSG, but this cannot be our barometer, nor our crutch to explain failure. If we were winning titles fewer players would leave. No player is worth more than 120k per week, but we pay our manager 140k. How so, Only at RM does the manager earn more than the players and they are a basketcase organisation. We need to get our priorities right, balance our salaries better across the playing staff. and then change the mentality on the pitch. If we were really playing well for 80-90% of the season and not getting regularly dicked by the likes of Swansea and Wigan, amidst beating ManCity and Lpool, we would not be in such a sorry state.

The solutions to our woes lie within our means to rectify. We simply do not seem willing to do it.

May I also reiterate that we must have the worst medical staff in all professional sport. Our track record of rehabilitating players is atrocious. just look at it, Diaby, never the same, Eduardo, never the same, Ramsey, hobbled for life, Wilshire, gone for almost 18 months. WTF is going on?, either physically or psychologically our players never seem to come back whole. The hamstring troubles that dogged Fabregas for his last 2 seasons here have not reoccurred at Barca. Look at the terrible injuries suffered by Jibril Cisse and Alan Smith, they still made full recoveries and seem to have completely put them behind in their careers, Some people need sacking,

[IBK]

The future i think will very much resemble the present, if nothing changes. If the management of the team thinks that striving to win things is either unattainable and/or uneconomic, then who among the players is going to hang around for the long term. Its a charade. The kids of today will be the RVPs of tommorrow. The manager`s ONLY focus must be to win, it is the constant broadening of Wengers portfolio to include even the napkins used at the upper level diner, that has left us in limbo. True we cannot pay the astronomic wages paid by City and Real Madrid, and now PSG, but this cannot be our barometer, nor our crutch to explain failure. If we were winning titles fewer players would leave. No player is worth more than 120k per week, but we pay our manager 140k. How so, Only at RM does the manager earn more than the players and they are a basketcase organisation. We need to get our priorities right, balance our salaries better across the playing staff. and then change the mentality on the pitch. If we were really playing well for 80-90% of the season and not getting regularly dicked by the likes of Swansea and Wigan, amidst beating ManCity and Lpool, we would not be in such a sorry state.

The solutions to our woes lie within our means to rectify. We simply do not seem willing to do it.

May I also reiterate that we must have the worst medical staff in all professional sport. Our track record of rehabilitating players is atrocious. just look at it, Diaby, never the same, Eduardo, never the same, Ramsey, hobbled for life, Wilshire, gone for almost 18 months. WTF is going on?, either physically or psychologically our players never seem to come back whole. The hamstring troubles that dogged Fabregas for his last 2 seasons here have not reoccurred at Barca. Look at the terrible injuries suffered by Jibril Cisse and Alan Smith, they still made full recoveries and seem to have completely put them behind in their careers, Some people need sacking,

Aye - the eternal quandry. The only way to stop the second main cause of our problems (after not winning silverware) - namely spunking far to much on gambles/substandard players, we would have to get rid of AW - 'cos he ain't going to change/be able to change things with the time he has left. But in order to do so means throwing the baby our with the bathwater, and getting rid of the only manager around likely to be able to keep us in the CL with the resoources we are willing to commit to the cause.

And re injuries - I am beginning to think that its not so much the medical staff, but the regime in which they operate. Our players are overplayed, and over-trained.

[Power n Glory]

You know - this is what I beat myself up most about. I agree 100% with you - and its really sad that these days, unless you follow the natural resources billions then you are almost bound to decline as a football club.

But would we feel the same feelings of depression if Kroenke wasn't such a tight-fisted ****? Its easy to take the moral ground and say yes - but the problem is that ultimately football is about what happens for 90 minutes on the pitch, and when you have the best striker in the country scoring the winning goal over your main rivals in the 90th minute the last thing on your mind is going to be how you reached that point. I like to think that I care about morals/ethics, but when we were winning titles 10 years ago, I wasn't thinking about the finacial constraints on Coventry or Southampton.

Its the same in football as it is becoming in any other walk of life. A melting pot of avarice; short term-ism and lack of real values. Are the players themselves ultimately responsible? Most of them are thick as pig shit and morally stunted. I blame the money men more. The agents; the lawyers; the sell out shareholders...and to an extent we fans are to blame as well. We keep buying the over-priced tickets to see something more resembling WWF by the day, and lapping up the football celebrity gossip on the back pages.


That's where I stand on the situation and as long as us fans keep looking in the wrong direction and blaming the players, our pockets will continue to get pinched. The burden is all on the players and they're paid well, but they're pawns in this. Or small pieces at least.

Gossip rags like The Sun are all too concerned about the lifestyle players lead and the spotlight is firmly on them when it comes to football. When it all goes wrong it falls on their shoulders and fans get on their back. What about the faceless agents that are ruining the game. What about the crooked owners and why aren't journalists doing more to do look into the background of the people that run our clubs and what they do to make money? We've seen how bloody crooked Fifa are and more should be done to clean up the game and get it back to being about the grassroots. I've grown tired of blaming the players all the time. Would anyone or us here stay loyal to company so tight fisted and crooked? It doesn't happen, even if you love what you do.

[IBK]

That's where I stand on the situation and as long as us fans keep looking in the wrong direction and blaming the players, our pockets will continue to get pinched. The burden is all on the players and they're paid well, but they're pawns in this. Or small pieces at least.

Gossip rags like The Sun are all too concerned about the lifestyle players lead and the spotlight is firmly on them when it comes to football. When it all goes wrong it falls on their shoulders and fans get on their back. What about the faceless agents that are ruining the game. What about the crooked owners and why aren't journalists doing more to do look into the background of the people that run our clubs and what they do to make money? We've seen how bloody crooked Fifa are and more should be done to clean up the game and get it back to being about the grassroots. I've grown tired of blaming the players all the time. Would anyone or us here stay loyal to company so tight fisted and crooked? It doesn't happen, even if you love what you do.

I guess our press had a go when we didn't land the World Cup and look how that ended up? Money will always win in the end because human beings are by their very nature venal, self-serving and greedy...

[LDG]

I guess our press had a go when we didn't land the World Cup and look how that ended up? Money will always win in the end because human beings are by their very nature venal, self-serving and greedy...

:gp:

[Dennis Bendtner]

Maybe the other thing to note is how much the club are putting on negotiating lucrative sponsorship deals after 2014, when some of the front-loaded ones to pay for the stadium are apparently up. That'd have to give us more freedom, Arsenal are a way behind even non-CL clubs in this regard.

[Coney]

That's still too much of a burden on the players and it's about time the focus went on the organisations. It's like constantly blaming refs for making wrong decisions while idiots in Uefa like Platini have the power to introduce technology to help progression but refuse to.

The focus has to go on the Board and manager. As I said in a previous post, what did Gazidsi and Wenger say to RVP in that meeting for him to believe that we're going in the wrong direction? Why isn't anyone concerned with that?

I did notice what RvP said, but the problem is that he has just said that they want to go in different directions without saying what those directions are. Clearly, he wants the club to get the players needed to win trophies right now. It could be that Wenger/Gazidis want to do it too but over a longer period or with less financial exposure. Maybe they are waiting for Fair Play to kill the Citehs and Chavs (which would work if FIFA and UEFA enforce it properly - they won't, of course). But some statement other than the usual vague stuff would help here.

Having said that, regardless of Wenger's or Gazidis' intent on that way, what I want to see is a team who REALLY show spirit each game by going for it rather than sitting back with tippy-tappy and not shooting. A bit more grind and drive and a bit less pissing about would make the difference in terms of match enjoyment.

[IBK]

I did notice what RvP said, but the problem is that he has just said that they want to go in different directions without saying what those directions are. Clearly, he wants the club to get the players needed to win trophies right now. It could be that Wenger/Gazidis want to do it too but over a longer period or with less financial exposure. Maybe they are waiting for Fair Play to kill the Citehs and Chavs (which would work if FIFA and UEFA enforce it properly - they won't, of course). But some statement other than the usual vague stuff would help here.

Having said that, regardless of Wenger's or Gazidis' intent on that way, what I want to see is a team who REALLY show spirit each game by going for it rather than sitting back with tippy-tappy and not shooting. A bit more grind and drive and a bit less pissing about would make the difference in terms of match enjoyment.

The sad thing is that for the first time in years the team were showing some spirit last season - with RVP as a captain. This seemed to be different than in Cesc's last 2 years when it was obvious that he wanted away. Now RVP's off too - I expect the spirit to suffer again.

[Power n Glory]

We showed some great spirit during the season but it also started to trail off towards the end and the frustration and fatigue started to get to the fans and players. I still think of the day the crowd turned on Wenger for taking off the Ox and RVP throwing his hands up in disbelief. Once again, I can't understand why we didn't strengthen in January? Instead of loaning out Arshavin, we should have signed someone that could have given us that extra boost. Henry was great for us while he was here, but he was only here for a very short period. That one move may have changed the way things panned out for us this summer.

[LDG]

We showed some great spirit during the season but it also started to trail off towards the end and the frustration and fatigue started to get to the fans and players. I still think of the day the crowd turned on Wenger for taking off the Ox and RVP throwing his hands up in disbelief. Once again, I can't understand why we didn't strengthen in January? Instead of loaning out Arshavin, we should have signed someone that could have given us that extra boost. Henry was great for us while he was here, but he was only here for a very short period. That one move may have changed the way things panned out for us this summer.

True. True.

Thats always narks me actually. The January transfer period seems to be Wengers ultimate WUM card.

[Letters]

There are some things about the way Arsenal are run. I honestly think Wenger's ability to get us finishing top 4 every year is borderline genius - witness how many other managers have spent big money and failed - but some of the decisions not to strengthen when it's so painfully obvious we need to are baffling.
I just refuse to believe that Wenger, whatever his rhetoric, can't see our weaknesses. The idea that a man of his ability can't see what every fan and pundit can is ludicrous. So what's going on?

:shrug:

[GP]

There are some things about the way Arsenal are run. I honestly think Wenger's ability to get us finishing top 4 every year is borderline genius

No. It's only because other clubs have failed. PnG said so.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No. It's only because other clubs have failed. PnG said so.

The only thing that has failed is your face.

[IBK]

There are some things about the way Arsenal are run. I honestly think Wenger's ability to get us finishing top 4 every year is borderline genius - witness how many other managers have spent big money and failed - but some of the decisions not to strengthen when it's so painfully obvious we need to are baffling.
I just refuse to believe that Wenger, whatever his rhetoric, can't see our weaknesses. The idea that a man of his ability can't see what every fan and pundit can is ludicrous. So what's going on?

:shrug:

I agree with this. And the only conclusion to draw is that both AW and the board understand the situation, but are playing the long game and had concluded that losing players to mega bucks clubs is the only way to roll at present, and that we are deliberately treading water until a)FFP rules come in and b) we renegotiate our sponsorship deals.

[LDG]

There are some things about the way Arsenal are run. I honestly think Wenger's ability to get us finishing top 4 every year is borderline genius - witness how many other managers have spent big money and failed - but some of the decisions not to strengthen when it's so painfully obvious we need to are baffling.
I just refuse to believe that Wenger, whatever his rhetoric, can't see our weaknesses. The idea that a man of his ability can't see what every fan and pundit can is ludicrous. So what's going on?

:shrug:

I don't know.

But I'll tell you something for nothing.

Wenger is not a bumbling idiot.

[GP]

The only thing that has failed is your face.

And Spurs.

And your face.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He isn't a bumbling idiot, but he needs to stfu about other clubs when we are the ones selling our best talent to them in order to fund whatever it is that gets done with the proceeds.

No other team has complained more vociferously about City. Yet half the nucleus of our first team is now on their bench.

[Power n Glory]

There are some things about the way Arsenal are run. I honestly think Wenger's ability to get us finishing top 4 every year is borderline genius - witness how many other managers have spent big money and failed - but some of the decisions not to strengthen when it's so painfully obvious we need to are baffling.
I just refuse to believe that Wenger, whatever his rhetoric, can't see our weaknesses. The idea that a man of his ability can't see what every fan and pundit can is ludicrous. So what's going on?

:shrug:

I think Wenger has too much faith in his players to show resilience when up against the odds. I think it's part of his development plan. To show faith in players and give them a chance to perform. But when we're dealing with fatigue, injuries and players lacking confidence, he has to do something about it and place winning over development. For example, I can understand why he constantly plays Walcott down the right and on his weaker side. It was the same for Jack. I couldn't understand why he had him playing in a deep defensive position when he'd best suited playing further up. When you listen to his comments and interviews about that sort of thing, he says he wants them to develop their weak areas and not do the easy things that come as second nature to them. It's great development and really good philosophy and I like to hear his thoughts and that sort of thing, but it also drives me nuts that we sacrifice so much for it.

[Power n Glory]

No. It's only because other clubs have failed. PnG said so.

Yeah, I said it bitch! Do something. :lol:

It's a combination of both.

[Letters]

Your face is a bumbling idiot :angry:

[LDG]

Harsh on PnG, but I'll go with it.

[GP]

Yeah sounds about right.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Your face is a bumbling idiot :angry:

How long did it take you to type that sentence?

[IBK]

Back on topic - how ironic that in today's Forbes list, we are the 10th most valuable sports team in the world!

1. Manchester United (football) - $2.23 billion

2. Real Madrid (football) - $1.88 billion

3. New York Yankees (MLB) - $1.85 billion

3. Dallas Cowboys (NFL) - $1.85 billion

5. Washington Redskins (NFL) - $1.56 billion

6. Los Angeles Dodgers (MLB) - $1.40 billion

6. New England Patriots (NFL) - $1.40 billion

8. Barcelona (football) - $1.31 billion

9. New York Giants (NFL) - $1.30 billion

10. Arsenal (football) - $1.29 billion

[Xhaka Can’t]

How is it ironic?

[IBK]

How is it ironic?

Its ironic because the tread is debating whether we are in terminal decline. Don't you think its ironic that a club in our position in terms of global value may well be in terminal decline?

[Letters]

I was at lunch today and I needed a fork, right, and all they had was spoons.

[IBK]

I was at lunch today and I needed a fork, right, and all they had was spoons.

Sometimes you are mildly funny. This isn't one of them.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Its ironic because the tread is debating whether we are in terminal decline. Don't you think its ironic that a club in our position in terms of global value may well be in terminal decline?

http://www.isitironic.com/

[Xhaka Can’t]

Sometimes you are mildly funny. This isn't one of them.

THIS is ironic.

[IBK]

http://www.isitironic.com/

One definition of irony from that website is incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.

I think its incongrous that we have been in decline as a football force for the better part of a decade (and might be expected therefore to be less valuable than we were) yet in fact remain one of the world's most valuable clubs.

:shrug:

[IBK]

THIS is ironic.

YOU are moronic.

[Letters]

:lol:


GW :bow:

[Xhaka Can’t]

YOU are moronic.

So's your face.

[IBK]

So's your face.

Oh dear.

[LDG]

Oh dear.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwZVOZ1bh1yb-jEzMN8Y_1F2hLUo7-2zSor--JFTvG7P_WyHgo

[Xhaka Can’t]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwZVOZ1bh1yb-jEzMN8Y_1F2hLUo7-2zSor--JFTvG7P_WyHgo

How ironic.

He means expensive.

[GP]

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQwZVOZ1bh1yb-jEzMN8Y_1F2hLUo7-2zSor--JFTvG7P_WyHgo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_7_aJnQ1Uk

[Joker]

One definition of irony from that website is incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs.

I think its incongrous that we have been in decline as a football force for the better part of a decade (and might be expected therefore to be less valuable than we were) yet in fact remain one of the world's most valuable clubs.

:shrug:

I agree, and this is why questions need to be asked about the men upstairs. Of course it doesn't help when you have some Arsenal bloggers like Arseblogger who seems to act as chief propagandist for Gazidis and Kroenke; the most scrutiny he gives them is to put in a one line about how "Kroenke needs to make his vision clearer" and never critiquing all the BS that comes out of the mouths of Gazidis, PHW etc.

The board have placed financial needs over football needs, and are treating the club as a private sector enterprise, with the profit motive above all else. I can understand some people saying Wenger is a victim in this, and we can't know for sure, but I have had the impression over the last 5 years that Wenger has come round to their way of thinking, especially with his comments about needing to make the club a profit every year, criticising those who don't adhere to the dictats of the market, etc. I know I get ridiculed for calling Wenger a free market fundamentalist, but I'm not the only one who's said it:

http://gingers4limpar.com/?p=598

[LDG]

How ironic.

He means expensive.

As in, a lot of Doe?

Haaaaaaaaaa!!

[bignev]

I agree, and this is why questions need to be asked about the men upstairs. Of course it doesn't help when you have some Arsenal bloggers like Arseblogger who seems to act as chief propagandist for Gazidis and Kroenke; the most scrutiny he gives them is to put in a one line about how "Kroenke needs to make his vision clearer" and never critiquing all the BS that comes out of the mouths of Gazidis, PHW etc.



Admit it. You've never actually read arseblog have you?

[IBK]

I agree, and this is why questions need to be asked about the men upstairs. Of course it doesn't help when you have some Arsenal bloggers like Arseblogger who seems to act as chief propagandist for Gazidis and Kroenke; the most scrutiny he gives them is to put in a one line about how "Kroenke needs to make his vision clearer" and never critiquing all the BS that comes out of the mouths of Gazidis, PHW etc.

The board have placed financial needs over football needs, and are treating the club as a private sector enterprise, with the profit motive above all else. I can understand some people saying Wenger is a victim in this, and we can't know for sure, but I have had the impression over the last 5 years that Wenger has come round to their way of thinking, especially with his comments about needing to make the club a profit every year, criticising those who don't adhere to the dictats of the market, etc. I know I get ridiculed for calling Wenger a free market fundamentalist, but I'm not the only one who's said it:

http://gingers4limpar.com/?p=598

Interesting question - why Wenger and the Board seem to have fallen into line - because I refuse to believe that Wenger's principal aim is not to win things, or that his principal aim is making money for the club. In fact I think that there are 3 players here.

Kroenke - he is in the business of making money, a lot of money, from his shares over the long term. He doesn't give a flying fuck about us winning silverware - not if doing so will mean that the club needs to borrow money, and not as long as the value of the club continues to increase. He probably cares about CL football because without that the value of the club (potential for sponsors etc) will inevitably start to diminish.

Board - do care about prestige/success - but care more about the long term stability of the club, and are conservative with a capital C. Thus borrowing to spend on transfers/wages - particularly at the level the club would need to do to have 3 Cesc/RVP quality players in the team - is not an option, and they have accepted that without this kind of investment, silverware is unlikely but Wenger will probably be able to keep the CL grevy train running.

Wenger - cares deeply about winning things, but is a slave to his philosophical beliefs which are that clubs should live within their means, and should not be beholden to over-inflated player prices and wages. To win while betraying these tenets is an empty win.

Strangely, all three approaches are served by the stagnation that now characterises our club. Another common thread is that none of the camps could give a toss about what the fans think. And all think either that we are simple commodities, fortunate with what we have.

[Coney]

The sad thing is that for the first time in years the team were showing some spirit last season - with RVP as a captain. This seemed to be different than in Cesc's last 2 years when it was obvious that he wanted away. Now RVP's off too - I expect the spirit to suffer again.

Wenger seemed to have got a decent captain (in RvP) more by accident, judging by his previous choices. Hopefully whoever replaces him will be forceful enough to be respected by the other players, as must have been the case with PV. Not sure who it should be. I thought Verm until this year but now I am not sure.

[Coney]

:lol:


GW :bow:

For a brief moment, GW was great again. :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The problem hasn't been the self-sufficiency model, it's that the club is run by incompetents....most namely Ivan Gazidis.

The club has allowed Wenger too much control, and like any manager given too much control he's going to make dreadful mistakes such as with wages, where he has allowed players to earn riduculous salaries based on potential and not much else.....he seems to believe in equality of wages at the club where when the matter was handled by Dein there was a clear hierarchical structure.
We make ourselves look like amateurs (such as the tapping up of a russian phone company owned by Usmanov, a mistake so embarassing that someone's head should have rolled) and we have brought the situation upon ourselves of players with one year left on their contract because Wenger or someone at the club has made the mistake of treating them as mature adults instead of forcing them to sit down and negotiate a new contract or being sold when the contract runs down to two years.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Back on topic - how ironic that in today's Forbes list, we are the 10th most valuable sports team in the world!

1. Manchester United (football) - $2.23 billion

2. Real Madrid (football) - $1.88 billion

3. New York Yankees (MLB) - $1.85 billion

3. Dallas Cowboys (NFL) - $1.85 billion

5. Washington Redskins (NFL) - $1.56 billion

6. Los Angeles Dodgers (MLB) - $1.40 billion

6. New England Patriots (NFL) - $1.40 billion

8. Barcelona (football) - $1.31 billion

9. New York Giants (NFL) - $1.30 billion

10. Arsenal (football) - $1.29 billion

I see the Bar****s have now overtaken us, and Man U and especially Real have increased the gap. Oh well, now AW has another top 4 table to worry about.

[Özim]

I don't think money it the only problem, for me the way we do things just isn't inspiring....as a fan you want to have something to look forward to but every season we're served up with the same thing, I'd love us to be more unpredictable in the way we play as I think every game we play is so samey and lacks excitement on the whole.

I just think the manager has been here so long everything is very stale, we know what we're going to get and to be honest it's boring. I'd rather get a new manager in and have some unpredictability back, different types of players, different style, different way of doing things.

[IBK]

I don't think money it the only problem, for me the way we do things just isn't inspiring....as a fan you want to have something to look forward to but every season we're served up with the same thing, I'd love us to be more unpredictable in the way we play as I think every game we play is so samey and lacks excitement on the whole.

I just think the manager has been here so long everything is very stale, we know what we're going to get and to be honest it's boring. I'd rather get a new manager in and have some unpredictability back, different types of players, different style, different way of doing things.

So you think we're only in decline because of Wenger?

[Power n Glory]

I think Wenger has run out of ideas. It will be interesting to see how we look this season with new players and a new coaching staff.

[IBK]

Thing is - I find it quite hard to believe that AW has run out of ideas. If what we hear is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), Wenger is the biggest nerd in football when it comes to studying the game - and its difficult to imagine that such an avid student of the game has no ideas about what makes a team work.

I think its more likely that he has a blind spot over his ability to put his ideas into practice with developmental players. Its not so much a blind spot about his ability - because he does have the ability to make good players world class. More about his ability to develop and keep them.

I honestly think that if he had managed to keep his top players together over the past 5 years we would have won the league with Barca style football - afetr all, he was the pioneer of this style in this country. Its his inflexibility about paying too much in transfers, while over-committing on developmental players' wages that seems to be the main problem.

[LDG]

Thing is - I find it quite hard to believe that AW has run out of ideas. If what we hear is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), Wenger is the biggest nerd in football when it comes to studying the game - and its difficult to imagine that such an avid student of the game has no ideas about what makes a team work.

I think its more likely that he has a blind spot over his ability to put his ideas into practice with developmental players. Its not so much a blind spot about his ability - because he does have the ability to make good players world class. More about his ability to develop and keep them.

I honestly think that if he had managed to keep his top players together over the past 5 years we would have won the league with Barca style football - afetr all, he was the pioneer of this style in this country. Its his inflexibility about paying too much in transfers, while over-committing on developmental players' wages that seems to be the main problem.

It's a weird conundrum with the spending part. He believes in value for money, and in financial prudence. That much is clear. Yet he has taken too many gambles on unknown quanities. Prudence and gambling don't go hand in hand for me.

That said, seems he's taking a more calculated look at players now. See Arteta, Podolski etc. Proven quality at a reasonable price.

I don't envy him having those financial constraints. He's still the best on the business at it though.

His major weakness is his reliance on players that aren't cutting it. During games, but also during a season. Where it goes wrong over a season, can been seen in microcosm during a game. Too late, and unwilling to change something fo rthe good of the team.

Tactically he has been woeful the last five years.

[Letters]

So you think we're only in decline because of Wenger?
I think we're only not in decline because of him.
We are stagnating though.

[selassie]

I think Wenger has too much faith in his players to show resilience when up against the odds. I think it's part of his development plan. To show faith in players and give them a chance to perform. But when we're dealing with fatigue, injuries and players lacking confidence, he has to do something about it and place winning over development. For example, I can understand why he constantly plays Walcott down the right and on his weaker side. It was the same for Jack. I couldn't understand why he had him playing in a deep defensive position when he'd best suited playing further up. When you listen to his comments and interviews about that sort of thing, he says he wants them to develop their weak areas and not do the easy things that come as second nature to them. It's great development and really good philosophy and I like to hear his thoughts and that sort of thing, but it also drives me nuts that we sacrifice so much for it.

Yep top post. I think Wenger places player development and intelligence above anything else. I once read an article, cant remember what rag it was in, maybe the Independent where those close to Wenger pretty much said he lets the players work it out for themselves, he places a big emphasis on player development.

When we had a team full of experienced pros in the invincible era giving players the freedom to learn from their mistakes was fine because we had a set of experienced pros, using this method with a team of developing and largely inexperienced players is where Wenger has got it wrong.

None of this has anything to do with money, FFP or Man City, it's to do with coaching players and drilling them to learn, if a player is intelligent they will develop quickly on their own but they will most certainly develop a lot quicker if given direction.

I often say that Wenger makes it hard for himself, it's almost like he's trying to be too smart, many highly intellectual people are like this.

[IBK]

I think we're only not in decline because of him.
We are stagnating though.

I was going to make a similar point!

[IBK]

Yep top post. I think Wenger places player development and intelligence above anything else. I once read an article, cant remember what rag it was in, maybe the Independent where those close to Wenger pretty much said he lets the players work it out for themselves, he places a big emphasis on player development.

When we had a team full of experienced pros in the invincible era giving players the freedom to learn from their mistakes was fine because we had a set of experienced pros, using this method with a team of developing and largely inexperienced players is where Wenger has got it wrong.

None of this has anything to do with money, FFP or Man City, it's to do with coaching players and drilling them to learn, if a player is intelligent they will develop quickly on their own but they will most certainly develop a lot quicker if given direction.

I often say that Wenger makes it hard for himself, it's almost like he's trying to be too smart, many highly intellectual people are like this.

I'd buy that.

[Power n Glory]

Thing is - I find it quite hard to believe that AW has run out of ideas. If what we hear is true (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), Wenger is the biggest nerd in football when it comes to studying the game - and its difficult to imagine that such an avid student of the game has no ideas about what makes a team work.

I think its more likely that he has a blind spot over his ability to put his ideas into practice with developmental players. Its not so much a blind spot about his ability - because he does have the ability to make good players world class. More about his ability to develop and keep them.

I honestly think that if he had managed to keep his top players together over the past 5 years we would have won the league with Barca style football - afetr all, he was the pioneer of this style in this country. Its his inflexibility about paying too much in transfers, while over-committing on developmental players' wages that seems to be the main problem.

Maybe run out of ideas is harsh. He's just being very dogmatic with his philosophy and he's not going to move away from this 'total football' 'tika taka' style. The Ajax model and Cryuff have been a big influence on his style and that's what he wants to recreate. I don't have a problem with that. Yeah, the instability in the squad has really been killing us and maybe we could have won a title if the team had stuck together and we'd done more as a club to buy players.

But over the past couple of seasons, Wenger has made some bad tactical calls and I've really started to doubt him as a manager. For example our defensive situation hasn't improved. It's gotten worse each season with more goals being leaked. He seems to think an attacking style of football means we're bound to leak more goals than other teams. But that's simply not true. Barca have a great defensive record and also work their socks off to win the ball back. For the past 3 seasons we've seen fans, players and ex players saying we need to defend from the back and as unit, like how Barca does, but we never do it. Seeing us do it against Chelsea was beautiful but it never lasts and it seems like a player lead strategy more than the managers call to press teams.


Yep top post. I think Wenger places player development and intelligence above anything else. I once read an article, cant remember what rag it was in, maybe the Independent where those close to Wenger pretty much said he lets the players work it out for themselves, he places a big emphasis on player development.

When we had a team full of experienced pros in the invincible era giving players the freedom to learn from their mistakes was fine because we had a set of experienced pros, using this method with a team of developing and largely inexperienced players is where Wenger has got it wrong.

None of this has anything to do with money, FFP or Man City, it's to do with coaching players and drilling them to learn, if a player is intelligent they will develop quickly on their own but they will most certainly develop a lot quicker if given direction.

I often say that Wenger makes it hard for himself, it's almost like he's trying to be too smart, many highly intellectual people are like this.

Which leads us to this. He will have to betray his philosophy in order to get the best of the team. Developing players and developing a team are two different things. One or two players learning a new role and developing is okay, but from the goal keeper, to defenders, midfield and attack....it's too much. Plus they have nobody to learn from. Cesc's development stopped as soon as became one of the most senior players in the squad. I hope we get that balance back and it's looking promising with the players we've just signed.

[Globalgunner]

wenger as one ofv football`s great thinkers is nothing but a delusion. He studies the game from the expanse of his mind. When last did you see or hear of wenger going to study the opposition before a match. Never does, every other manager does it From SAF to Oneill to allardyce to mancini, but not our prof. Player development, HAH!, which player has made strides under his watch?, Djourou,(10 yrs) still shite, Walcott, still as raw as he was in 2006. Wenger is better than the chap in that film, Keyser Soze. His greatest trick was to make people believe that he knows shit.

[GP]

wenger as one ofv football`s great thinkers is nothing but a delusion. He studies the game from the expanse of his mind. When last did you see or hear of wenger going to study the opposition before a match. Never does, every other manager does it From SAF to Oneill to allardyce to mancini, but not our prof. Player development, HAH!, which player has made strides under his watch?, Djourou,(10 yrs) still shite, Walcott, still as raw as he was in 2006. Wenger is better than the chap in that film, Keyser Soze. His greatest trick was to make people believe that he knows shit.

:haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Is fuck-a-doodle-doo appropriate?

[Letters]

I think that about covers it, yes.

[Cripps_orig]

wenger as one ofv football`s great thinkers is nothing but a delusion. He studies the game from the expanse of his mind. When last did you see or hear of wenger going to study the opposition before a match. Never does, every other manager does it From SAF to Oneill to allardyce to mancini, but not our prof. Player development, HAH!, which player has made strides under his watch?, Djourou,(10 yrs) still shite, Walcott, still as raw as he was in 2006. Wenger is better than the chap in that film, Keyser Soze. His greatest trick was to make people believe that he knows shit.
A good point.

Never see him at other games as we do other managers. Its well known he doesnt study the weaknesses or strengths of opposition teams and just concentrates on our one which as can see has been a failure. His blind faith in our team is his biggest weakness

[Power n Glory]

I think that about covers it, yes.

You have to admit, it's harsh but he has a point. Having and studying an ideal or principle is one thing but studying the opposition is a part or the game. And a lot of the players he's had from reserve teen age haven't really turned out all that well. It's a harsh criticism but I wouldn't dismiss it.

[Letters]

There is a reasonable point in there somewhere about Wenger not being a great tactician - not adjusting the way we play enough to account for opposition teams. A quick Google gave me this which is a Manc's perspective:

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/arsenals-bizarre-preparation-exposed/

[Power n Glory]

There is a reasonable point in there somewhere about Wenger not being a great tactician - not adjusting the way we play enough to account for opposition teams. A quick Google gave me this which is a Manc's perspective:

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/arsenals-bizarre-preparation-exposed/

And that's the sad truth. It's why we still struggle to beat certain styles. Teams that used to once park the bus have know realised they can counter as seen from earlier seasons when both Manchester teams ripped us open. Hughes used the same tactics against us last season as he did when coaching City. It's probably why we still have shit wingbacks and defenders. How can you not study your opponent?

Same logic works with our stale attack as well. When teams double mark our players or try to force them wide, we have no clue how to react except more of the same. If we want our players to develop, hs has to get them studying the opposition. Pisses me off to read that and the original poster has a point on that respect.

[Maestro]

Yep top post. I think Wenger places player development and intelligence above anything else. I once read an article, cant remember what rag it was in, maybe the Independent where those close to Wenger pretty much said he lets the players work it out for themselves, he places a big emphasis on player development.

When we had a team full of experienced pros in the invincible era giving players the freedom to learn from their mistakes was fine because we had a set of experienced pros, using this method with a team of developing and largely inexperienced players is where Wenger has got it wrong.

None of this has anything to do with money, FFP or Man City, it's to do with coaching players and drilling them to learn, if a player is intelligent they will develop quickly on their own but they will most certainly develop a lot quicker if given direction.

I often say that Wenger makes it hard for himself, it's almost like he's trying to be too smart, many highly intellectual people are like this.

[/QUOTE]wenger as one ofv football`s great thinkers is nothing but a delusion. He studies the game from the expanse of his mind. When last did you see or hear of wenger going to study the opposition before a match. Never does, every other manager does it From SAF to Oneill to allardyce to mancini, but not our prof. Player development, HAH!, which player has made strides under his watch?, Djourou,(10 yrs) still shite, Walcott, still as raw as he was in 2006. Wenger is better than the chap in that film, Keyser Soze. His greatest trick was to make people believe that he knows shit.[/QUOTE]

This is our real problem, very close to home. I find these two posts very strangely related and an accurate account of our predicament. Fantastic shit.

[Letters]

And that's the sad truth. It's why we still struggle to beat certain styles. Teams that used to once park the bus have know realised they can counter as seen from earlier seasons when both Manchester teams ripped us open. Hughes used the same tactics against us last season as he did when coaching City. It's probably why we still have shit wingbacks and defenders. How can you not study your opponent?

Same logic works with our stale attack as well. When teams double mark our players or try to force them wide, we have no clue how to react except more of the same. If we want our players to develop, hs has to get them studying the opposition. Pisses me off to read that and the original poster has a point on that respect.
I don't think this has changed though. Wenger has always wanted us to play football in a certain way. Back in the day it didn't matter though because we had better players than everyone else and we were fitter than everyone else. Other teams could do what they liked and most of the time it didn't matter. Now we're still (contrary to popular belief on here) better than most teams but the gap is less and there are better teams around. We do on occasion need to change it and be more pragmatic and I do think one of Wenger's failings is a stubborn sticking to his principles regardless.

[Power n Glory]

Better teams, better coaches, better resources and i'm just talking about money. Teams have better scouting networks, access to information and videos on players, fitness has gone up..etc. The league has adapted and improved but Wenger hasn't. That's his downfall and why i can't rate him that much. He's able to take advantage of the league when it's weak, but now it's getting stronger he's really struggling. Before he leaves us, i want him to prove me wrong and have a period of domination cause at this moment, his legacy isn't looking as Grande.

It's like Button winning the F1 Championship with that suped up Brawn car. Or when Lennox Lewis was dominating the Heavyweight division. I can't respect it as much if you haven't faced real tough competitors that are also capable of domination.

[IBK]

Very good debate here. I can see both sides, really. One the one hand, Wenger will have very far-sighted ideas about how the game should be played - and its testament to his genius in this respect that he is regarded as one of the games greatest developmental managers, and still manages to achievetop four football despite his shortcomings.

But on the other hand, he is over philosophical, and ignores the basics. I've said before that he makes the game harder than it should be. And that permeates so many aspects of our game - our apparent disdain for set-pieces; failure to shoot from distance; lack of set up for how other teams play etc. What's more, I think that he is obsessed about development of individual players' technical skills - while at the same time often neglecting how we function as a team.

It is frustrating, because surely the 'easier' aspects of the game would neither detract from, nor be a massive burden on top of the things that the manager does well.

And in the context of the tread title, where does that leave us? Could another manager who does do the basics but doesn't have AW's genius at finding/developing cheap talent keep us where we are? Because as Dalglish; Redknapp; AVB and successive Chelsea managers have shown - its not an easy trick to pull off.

From where I'm standing, much as its eay to find fault in what he does - few if any managers would be able to achieve what Wenger does on a similar budget. So it might be a stark choice - stagnation at best. Inexorable decline at worst.

[Flavs]

Arsenal fans who think being the 3rd best team in league is shit :lol:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Third does rhyme with turd tbf.

[Joker]

Arsenal fans who think being the 3rd best team in league is shit :lol:

It's not shit but we have definitely stagnated. We haven't had a 2nd place finish since 2004-2005, and haven't won a trophy since that season. In the period from 1997/98 to 04/05, we had won 7 trophies. You can't deny it has been a deep stagnation, and we haven't been able to kick on the way we should have.

[Flavs]

It's not shit but we have definitely stagnated. We haven't had a 2nd place finish since 2004-2005, and haven't won a trophy since that season. In the period from 1997/98 to 04/05, we had won 7 trophies. You can't deny it has been a deep stagnation, and we haven't been able to kick on the way we should have.

Well of course i disagree we are now behind the biggest football club with the greatest manager ever and a club with the ultimate money cheat on. Yes we have stopped winning things but we have been to cup finals and short of the late season debacles of late we have been close to the league a couple of times. Wenger's teams have always been fragile mentally but before we had the individual quality to overcome such things, how many times did Henry or Vieira have to drag us to a result, even in the invincibles season. Players like that nowadays go to the money rather than to us simple as that, that's not Wenger's fault however.

Yes we make schoolboy errors on the pitch but find me a team that dont? Yes we make errors in the transfer market and in the corporate department we still bury 96% of teams in this nation however.

People always focus on the negative but we finished 3rd after being dire at times and getting our arses handed to us a couple of times. That is something to be proud of not angry about. The people who became arsenal fans during the invinceable season are essentially spoiled by a ridiculously high bar that no-one will get close to again and i notice on here that the younger posters tend to be the ones who moan endlessly about lack of trophies rather than accept it and try and focus on the good news. That isn't a "I'm a better fan than you" statement I just think we have seen previous troughs and therefore appreciate the peaks a little more.

[GP]

Well of course i disagree we are now behind the biggest football club with the greatest manager ever and a club with the ultimate money cheat on. Yes we have stopped winning things but we have been to cup finals and short of the late season debacles of late we have been close to the league a couple of times. Wenger's teams have always been fragile mentally but before we had the individual quality to overcome such things, how many times did Henry or Vieira have to drag us to a result, even in the invincibles season. Players like that nowadays go to the money rather than to us simple as that, that's not Wenger's fault however.

Yes we make schoolboy errors on the pitch but find me a team that dont? Yes we make errors in the transfer market and in the corporate department we still bury 96% of teams in this nation however.

People always focus on the negative but we finished 3rd after being dire at times and getting our arses handed to us a couple of times. That is something to be proud of not angry about. The people who became arsenal fans during the invinceable season are essentially spoiled by a ridiculously high bar that no-one will get close to again and i notice on here that the younger posters tend to be the ones who moan endlessly about lack of trophies rather than accept it and try and focus on the good news. That isn't a "I'm a better fan than you" statement I just think we have seen previous troughs and therefore appreciate the peaks a little more.

That's a good post.

[I_Killed_Kenny]

:gp:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Great post Flavs.

[LDG]

Same.

Falvs :bow:

[Letters]

Better teams, better coaches, better resources and i'm just talking about money. Teams have better scouting networks, access to information and videos on players, fitness has gone up..etc. The league has adapted and improved but Wenger hasn't. That's his downfall and why i can't rate him that much. He's able to take advantage of the league when it's weak, but now it's getting stronger he's really struggling. Before he leaves us, i want him to prove me wrong and have a period of domination cause at this moment, his legacy isn't looking as Grande.
You understand that Wenger was one of the first to introduce new training and fitness methods and a knowledge of the global game?
It's others who have caught up with him in response. And billionaires have come along and made it damn near impossible to compete anyway.

His legacy is the new stadium and the best period of success in our history. We're not going to have another period of dominance under him (or anyone else) while City and Chelsea are able to throw as much money as they want around (FFP won't change that IMO). Wenger came along and took a decent but not exceptional side and made them exceptional. He made us better than the rest at the time using the methods I've mentioned above. To dismiss that because the other competitors weren't 'tough' is revisionism. Utd had won every PL title bar one till Wenger came along, the only other teams to stop them are Blackburn, Chelsea and now City. All fueled by big money men. We only had one exceptional team to beat but you could argue runners in the 100m this summer only have one exceptional athelete to beat in Bolt. That wouldn't make it any less of an achievement if they do.

[Power n Glory]

Very good debate here. I can see both sides, really. One the one hand, Wenger will have very far-sighted ideas about how the game should be played - and its testament to his genius in this respect that he is regarded as one of the games greatest developmental managers, and still manages to achievetop four football despite his shortcomings.

But on the other hand, he is over philosophical, and ignores the basics. I've said before that he makes the game harder than it should be. And that permeates so many aspects of our game - our apparent disdain for set-pieces; failure to shoot from distance; lack of set up for how other teams play etc. What's more, I think that he is obsessed about development of individual players' technical skills - while at the same time often neglecting how we function as a team.

It is frustrating, because surely the 'easier' aspects of the game would neither detract from, nor be a massive burden on top of the things that the manager does well.

And in the context of the tread title, where does that leave us? Could another manager who does do the basics but doesn't have AW's genius at finding/developing cheap talent keep us where we are? Because as Dalglish; Redknapp; AVB and successive Chelsea managers have shown - its not an easy trick to pull off.

From where I'm standing, much as its eay to find fault in what he does - few if any managers would be able to achieve what Wenger does on a similar budget. So it might be a stark choice - stagnation at best. Inexorable decline at worst.

Easier said than done, be we need a manager that can do both. Someone that comes from the school of 'Total football' but also believes in discipline and the basics. I hope Bergkamp one days becomes a successful manager at Ajax and then comes here.

Wenger's philosophy is great but I can't see why he doesn't focus on the basics and opposing teams. If you check the comments from Fabregas regarding Spain's preparation, they're able to study their opponents as well as play attractive football. I'm sure it's the same at Barca and they have an awesome defensive method as well as having the 'tika taka' style.

[Joker]

...And billionaires have come along and made it damn near impossible to compete anyway.

Not according to Wenger

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/07/19/3252777/wenger-arsenal-can-still-battle-for-title-without-competing

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Not according to Wenger

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/07/19/3252777/wenger-arsenal-can-still-battle-for-title-without-competing

Most of the time you say he talks rubbish though.

[Flavs]

Oh you can compete but when a team can essentially buy a 25 man squad made up of world class players and essentially bully all the other teams into giving you there players. Citeh and Chelsea before them are doing what Bayern and Lyon did for years but on a far greater and more garish scale.

No longer will things like Cloughie's Forest happen because as soon as hidden gem type players get marketed by the Sky machine they will get snapped up by the big boys.

I had a thought the other day about how the draft system in the NBA and thought that the teams who reveal the highest revenue should get the least TV/Premiership monies at the start of every season. So Citeh, Chelsea, us and Manyoo would get 15-20mil and the likes of Reading, QPR etc would get 25-30mil of it, that might help bridge the gap and remove the funding issues we have.

Joker mentioned in another thread that we are mainly backing the FFPR because its good for us, however when i see Citeh paying a player £160k a week and then loaning him out while teams like Portsmouth and Doncaster are selling everything that isn't bolted down to stay afloat the state of modern football disgusts me.

[Joker]

Most of the time you say he talks rubbish though.

LOL fair point. But on this occasion he's correct, and if he does at least compete against the likes of City and Chelsea this season (doesn't mean we have to win the league), then I'll hold my hands up and say he's lived up to his word. Otherwise, given what he's said in that article, he must take responsibility.

[Power n Glory]

You understand that Wenger was one of the first to introduce new training and fitness methods and a knowledge of the global game?
It's others who have caught up with him in response. And billionaires have come along and made it damn near impossible to compete anyway.

His legacy is the new stadium and the best period of success in our history. We're not going to have another period of dominance under him (or anyone else) while City and Chelsea are able to throw as much money as they want around (FFP won't change that IMO). Wenger came along and took a decent but not exceptional side and made them exceptional. He made us better than the rest at the time using the methods I've mentioned above. To dismiss that because the other competitors weren't 'tough' is revisionism. Utd had won every PL title bar one till Wenger came along, the only other teams to stop them are Blackburn, Chelsea and now City. All fueled by big money men. We only had one exceptional team to beat but you could argue runners in the 100m this summer only have one exceptional athelete to beat in Bolt. That wouldn't make it any less of an achievement if they do.

It's not revisionism because I've been having the same debates with rival fans for years. My Man Utd mates who also watched Serie A when at its strongest and La Liga would always say our team was too good for the Premier League, their aren't that many great teams/coaches/players and that's why we have our way so easily. They never rated the English league that much. Almost team played 4-4-2, long ball football and their wasn't a great deal of attacking teams. I'd tell them it's BS and defend the team but they'd point to our none performances in the Champions League and that would always be the sticking point. We could never produce the same sort of performance on the big stage with that team and used to go out of the competition early every time.

I'm not saying Wenger hasn't introduced new training methods to the league and transformed the English game, but when your players have bad diets and drink alcohol during the season and think it's ok, sorry but that's pretty poor league. A coach telling them to stop all that crap should have been bog standard because he's training professional athletes. Forget football for a second, every sport, besides darts maybe, should be encouraging healthy eating and no alcohol. Wenger was one of the first foreign coaches to come over here but he's not the only coach with a philosophy on how the game should be played and training methods. He got it from the Dutch. But he's done well to change things here.

Also, it would be worth you reading Wenger's recent comments about the billionaire boys. It's not impossible to compete with these guys on the pitch because we've beaten them on the field. That's no excuse. As for the Athletics comparison, Bolt is an exceptional athlete but there are plenty of runners out there that have beaten him this year, so it won't be a walk in the park for him.

[Letters]

Not according to Wenger

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896/premier-league/2012/07/19/3252777/wenger-arsenal-can-still-battle-for-title-without-competing
Do you agree with him? I don't.

[IBK]

Arsenal fans who think being the 3rd best team in league is shit :lol:

You've missed the point, my man.

The debate is about whether we're declining or not, not whether being third is shit or not. We have declined in the past 8 years. Will we decline further? Is all.

[Power n Glory]

Real Madrid went through a title drought when they had the Galatico era. Dortmund have done it in Germany and it's happend again in France. It's possible and we don't play the top 3 week in week out. We've come close to winning the league but Wenger's stubbornness during the January transfer window has hampered us.

[Kano]

Real Madrid went through a title drought when they had the Galatico era. Dortmund have done it in Germany and it's happend again in France. It's possible and we don't play the top 3 week in week out. We've come close to winning the league but Wenger's stubbornness during the January transfer window has hampered us.

more do do with our injury problems than any transfer windows.

[Flavs]

You've missed the point, my man.

The debate is about whether we're declining or not, not whether being third is shit or not. We have declined in the past 8 years. Will we decline further? Is all.

Well no, i understood the thread I just think it's funny people see us being the 3rd best team in Britain as a bit wanky

[IBK]

Well no, i understood the thread I just think it's funny people see us being the 3rd best team in Britain as a bit wanky

Oh I agree - some of the over-egging is OTT. I guess it just smarts a bit that we've been out-muscled in recent times - and it really stings to see our best players leavign year on year. Objectively I'd agree - we're coming off a pretty good season.

[Power n Glory]

more do do with our injury problems than any transfer windows.

Yeah, it's both. Too many injuries to key players but we don't do anything in the January transfer window to give us that extra belief and push. Look what Arshavin and Ade did for us when bought in the January window when struggling for 4th.

[Letters]

It's not revisionism because I've been having the same debates with rival fans for years. My Man Utd mates who also watched Serie A when at its strongest and La Liga would always say our team was too good for the Premier League, their aren't that many great teams/coaches/players and that's why we have our way so easily. They never rated the English league that much. Almost team played 4-4-2, long ball football and their wasn't a great deal of attacking teams. I'd tell them it's BS and defend the team but they'd point to our none performances in the Champions League and that would always be the sticking point. We could never produce the same sort of performance on the big stage with that team and used to go out of the competition early every time.

I'm not saying Wenger hasn't introduced new training methods to the league and transformed the English game, but when your players have bad diets and drink alcohol during the season and think it's ok, sorry but that's pretty poor league. A coach telling them to stop all that crap should have been bog standard because he's training professional athletes. Forget football for a second, every sport, besides darts maybe, should be encouraging healthy eating and no alcohol. Wenger was one of the first foreign coaches to come over here but he's not the only coach with a philosophy on how the game should be played and training methods. He got it from the Dutch. But he's done well to change things here.

Also, it would be worth you reading Wenger's recent comments about the billionaire boys. It's not impossible to compete with these guys on the pitch because we've beaten them on the field. That's no excuse. As for the Athletics comparison, Bolt is an exceptional athlete but there are plenty of runners out there that have beaten him this year, so it won't be a walk in the park for him.
Before Heysel and the ban English clubs won the European Cup 7 years out of 8 in the late 70s and eary 80's. And that was when the real big drinking schools in clubs were around. Hardly a 'pretty poor league'. After the break they struggled a bit but English sides have been involved in 7 of the last 8 finals and won 3 times.

It's interesting that people who usually dismiss Wenger's comments as nonsense are now using them to back up their stance that we should be able to compete with City. What's he supposed to say? "We've got no chance, we might as well give up now"? Of course he's going to say he thinks we can compete. Maybe he even believes it. In practise it's incredibly difficult to do.

We beat City on the field in a one off game but over a long season when they can expensively assemble a squad far better than ours, buy our best players to make us weaker while they strengthen and buy such a large squad that injuries and fatigue are an irrelevance then it's very hard to compete. Utd have the best manager around, arguably the best manager ever, and they ultimately failed. They should have beaten them this year but it was only because of Ferguson they were anywhere near. City have a better squad than anyone and they'll spend again. Chelsea, despite their silverware, won't be happy with their league finish so they'll be spending big again. Utd doubtless will too and they have the best manager around. Is it really such a failure to finish below these sides?

I do think we can be pushing harder but it's not a failure to finish below a side like City and to beating them in a one off game is no indication that we can do so over the course of a long season when they can buy a far better squad than we can ever hope to, even if we could be doing more.

[Power n Glory]

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. Saying it's impossible for us to win the league is pathetic talk quite frankly. You point at Man United every time and ignore the fact that they were level on points with City this season and won the title the season before last when they spent millions again.

Also, the league is one thing, but teams that might not have the stamina to win it are still able to pick up a cup win. We lost our Cup final against Birmingham. As already discussed, there are fundamental problems with the way Wenger sets his teams up and there is room for improvement. Tactics, training methods, injuries, how we use our resource, we can improve in all areas. We should be aspiring to improve but you're talking as if it's over and we can't go any further.

I'm not talking about the 70s and 80s either and I'm not talking about recent Champions League history where English teams have more foreign players than ever. Tactically and technically, English players are behind the other top leagues and it's improves because more overseas managers and players are coming over. Take all that away and it's poor. Look at the English national team as an example. Wenger brought an international style of football to the league and it was a revelation. He was the pioneer but now the competition is a lot tougher.