When's the last time you've been this pessimistic before a game?

[Letters]

The general consensus about tomorrow seems to be: :ilt:

It's very rare I'm this certain we'll lose a game. When's the last time you felt like this before a game (if you do?)
For me it's Barca away the other year when we got the predictable battering (although but for the ref and Bentner not living up to his own hype we might just have gone through that night)

[Marc Overmars]

United away last year.

I hate the fixture, we very rarely get results there. We either get battered or play well and still lose. Gah.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Where have you been? This has been the norm for a minute now.

[IBK]

I can't remember, but I will have felt so more times in the past - simply because I cared more then. Now its just 'meh'. I think we'll lose and I'm not going to beat myself up about it when we do.

[Letters]

I can't remember the last time I felt this bad going to Old Trafford.
Usually I think we might get something up there (and usually I'm wrong).
Not this time.
ManYoo will win. RvP will score. These are known knowns.
:ilt:

[Marc Overmars]

I can't remember, but I will have felt so more times in the past - simply because I cared more then. Now its just 'meh'. I think we'll lose and I'm not going to beat myself up about it when we do.

Can I beat you up when we lose?

[Syn]

When it seems things can't get any worse, I usually think we'll pull off a miracle. But now we've seen it enough times to know we don't do that - we just sink to newer lows. Absolutely certain of a Man Utd win. And what IBK said...won't be getting annoyed about the result. Hope we get Gibbs and others back for a game after that we can win in the battle for CL qualification.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

An utter disgrace and nothing short of a travesty that this legacy will be attached to out greatest manager yet.

[Globalgunner]

If Ramsinho and santos play and or if Dowd or the bald copper are on Fergies teamsheet, then you can forget it. The only silver lining is that its just 3 points, just like getting smothered at Norwich. If this was a CL fixture or Fa cup 1/4 them maybe I would wake up 2mrw wishing it was the day after. But hey, if wenger csn shrug off crap displays, so can I.

[Niall_Quinn]

Last time I felt this consigned to a loss was before the QPR game.

Everything depends on the team selection tomorrow. Chamakh is back to his very best - so he's still not good enough to play. Giroud up top then, but we must make sure we isolate him or else he might score. If our players can each run 14.2 kilometres in 93 minutes then statistically we deserve to win, although we may not actually win. Keeping the ball will be vitally important, if we hide it then Utd can't score.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The general consensus about tomorrow seems to be: :ilt:

It's very rare I'm this certain we'll lose a game. When's the last time you felt like this before a game (if you do?)
For me it's Barca away the other year when we got the predictable battering (although but for the ref and Bentner not living up to his own hype we might just have gone through that night)

Spurs at home last season.

[Ernesto]

That Barcelona game, away, after we'd taken a 2-1 first leg lead to the Nou Camp.

Everything about the pre-match build-up was pessimistic.

[Özim]

I'm indifferent nowadays, we lose games pretty often so you get use to it. I don't really see us up there anymore, even though I'd love us to be so losing to the top clubs is just confirmation of that.

If we lose at the weekend we lose, if we win great, it won't mean much as we won't be anywhere come the end of the season. Either way Wenger needs to be on his merry way for me to truly believe we can move forward, until then we'll just stagnate as we have done for years now.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I'm indifferent nowadays, we lose games pretty often so you get use to it. I don't really see us up there anymore, even though I'd love us to be so losing to the top clubs is just confirmation of that.

If we lose at the weekend we lose, if we win great, it won't mean much as we won't be anywhere come the end of the season. Either way Wenger needs to be on his merry way for me to truly believe we can move forward, until then we'll just stagnate as we have done for years now.

Yet if we lose you'll be in the match thread moaning about how we should be doing better etc. Though tbf your not the only one.

[Joker]

We're no longer competing with the likes of United so any defeat is no longer as significant as it used to be.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We're no longer competing with the likes of United so any defeat is no longer as significant as it used to be.

Might as well not turn up, give the, the 3 points now.

[mkkreuk]

we are gonna win, and win well!

1-3

man up

[Ollie the Optimist]

pretty sure we will lose but as always no matter how pessimistic i am feeling, there is always a part of me that believes we will do it. just like on tuesday night, i couldnt turn the tv off even though i wanted to because i didnt want to see us lose because there was still part of me that believed. i hate that bit of hope i always have. makes every defeat so much worse.


all wenger should say tomorrow in his team talk is "van persie said you were shit and not good enough to play with him. go prove him wrong"

[Niall_Quinn]

pretty sure we will lose but as always no matter how pessimistic i am feeling, there is always a part of me that believes we will do it. just like on tuesday night, i couldnt turn the tv off even though i wanted to because i didnt want to see us lose because there was still part of me that believed. i hate that bit of hope i always have. makes every defeat so much worse.


all wenger should say tomorrow in his team talk is "van persie said you were shit and not good enough to play with him. go prove him wrong"

But in reality he'll say, Podolski you are a little bit substituted after 68 minutes. Walcott you are little bit coming on after 72 minutes.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

pretty sure we will lose but as always no matter how pessimistic i am feeling, there is always a part of me that believes we will do it. just like on tuesday night, i couldnt turn the tv off even though i wanted to because i didnt want to see us lose because there was still part of me that believed. i hate that bit of hope i always have. makes every defeat so much worse.


all wenger should say tomorrow in his team talk is "van persie said you were shit and not good enough to play with him. go prove him wrong"

Problem is this lot would probs cry and bottle it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

But in reality he'll say, Podolski you are a little bit substituted after 68 minutes. Walcott you are little bit coming on after 72 minutes.

Your face is a little bit substituted :coffee:

[Kano]

Strangely optimistic about this one. Their defence is a joke at the moment but we have to be far sharper and quicker in how we move the ball along. Anyone worrying about a similar scoreline to last season needs to stop being a fanny and sort it out tbh.

Winning would be just the sort of fucked up way we approach things, as we then disappear for a disaster out in Germany next week.

[GP]

Your face is a little bit substituted :coffee:

Substituted for poop.

lolz

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Substituted for poop.

lolz

Disgusting the way Cripps is treated on here.



Well no really :coffee.

[Özim]

Yet if we lose you'll be in the match thread moaning about how we should be doing better etc. Though tbf your not the only one.
I won't feel any different if we won to be honest, we're not a great team and one win won't change that. I don't want to see one good win, I'd rather see us challenging for stuff. It seems to change other people's opinions but not mine, people were raving about our start but I always felt we'd come unstuck eventually and it didn't take too long. This team under the current setup doesn't have it in them to be up there with the big boys.

I don't really rate us and it's clear to me we lack quality in many areas.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I won't feel any different if we won to be honest, we're not a great team and one win won't change that. I don't want to see one good win, I'd rather see us challenging for stuff.

I don't really rate us and it's clear to me we lack quality in many areas.

Yet it won't stop you and other's moaning after the game or even watching the game.

[Özim]

Might as well not turn up, give the, the 3 points now.
Yeah why not, I suppose if we win it will help us in our quest for the 4th place trophy?

[Özim]

Yet it won't stop you and other's moaning after the game or even watching the game.
Very true, but I'll keep doing that until the old man leaves tbh, because it's been clear to me we were on the way down under his management for years now.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yeah why not, I suppose if we win it will help us in our quest for the 4th place trophy?

Did i say that.

[Özim]

Did i say that.
No you said we may as well not bother turning up, fair point, look what happened last season when we did, I'd rather give them the 3 points now personally.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I won't feel any different if we won to be honest, we're not a great team and one win won't change that. I don't want to see one good win, I'd rather see us challenging for stuff. It seems to change other people's opinions but not mine, people were raving about our start but I always felt we'd come unstuck eventually and it didn't take too long. This team under the current setup doesn't have it in them to be up there with the big boys.

I don't really rate us and it's clear to me we lack quality in many areas.

lets put another hypothetical spin on this. if we win (i did say hypothetical) tomorrow, and beat spurs in two weeks time. it means we will have beaten liverpool away, united away, spurs at home, drawn away at the champions and lost to chelsea.

that puts us up there with the big boys in terms of playing them, we lose ground by failing to beat the small teams. what do you say to that? i know its hypothetical but if it happens, there is a chance (small i know) or even a draw at united. says a lot to me

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No you said we may as well not bother turning up, fair point, look what happened last season when we did, I'd rather give them the 3 points now personally.

Well if the team had your attitude id hope they never play again this season. Might as well ending now, infact might as well shut the club down and pull out of football all together.

[Özim]

lets put another hypothetical spin on this. if we win (i did say hypothetical) tomorrow, and beat spurs in two weeks time. it means we will have beaten liverpool away, united away, spurs at home, drawn away at the champions and lost to chelsea.

that puts us up there with the big boys in terms of playing them, we lose ground by failing to beat the small teams. what do you say to that? i know its hypothetical but if it happens, there is a chance (small i know) or even a draw at united. says a lot to me
Let's be honest here, Liverpool have got barely a striker and are sh*t at the moment.

Spurs are OK but I'm not a fan of Villas-Boas, I don't think he's much cop as he proved at Chelsea.

Man U are better but aren't the side they once were, they got a lucky win last weekend (and it was lucky), but the best two sides are clearly Chelsea and City, Ferguson is the only thing that sets them apart from rest of us, that and the fact they signed one of the best strikers in the league last summer. Their defence is appalling.

Even if we won both those games (and it's a big if), we'd screw it up, we always do, challenging isn't about winning the odd big game it's about consistency and building on good wins without bottling when times get tough.

[Özim]

Well if the team had your attitude id hope they never play again this season. Might as well ending now, infact might as well shut the club down and pull out of football all together.
They don't really give a sh*t so they're not far off, they never come out with any desire and real intent, when it matters most they rollover and get beaten, you can't believe in sh*t like that.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Let's be honest here, Liverpool have got barely a striker and are sh*t at the moment.

Spurs are OK but I'm not a fan of Villas-Boas, I don't think he's much cop as he proved at Chelsea.

Man U are better but aren't the side they once were, they got a lucky win last weekend (and it was lucky), but the best two sides are clearly Chelsea and City, Ferguson is the only thing that sets them apart from rest of us, that and the fact they signed one of the best strikers in the league last summer. Their defence is appalling.

Even if we won both those games (and it's a big if), we'd screw it up, we always, challenging isn't about winning the odd big game it's about consistency and building on good wins without bottling when times get tough.

Ollie never said we were challenging. We all know we are the best of the rest.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

They don't really give a sh*t so they're not far off, they never come out with any desire and real intent, when it matters most they rollover and get beaten, you can't believe in sh*t like that.

Theo Walcott Celebrating when he made it 6-5 in the CC shoed he cares very much. And he's not the only one.

The way the team Celebrated after we beat city, although a bit cringy, showed they care a hell of alot.

[Cripps_orig]

Theo Walcott Celebrating when he made it 6-5 in the CC shoed he cares very much. And he's not the only one.We didnt play in the CC

[Özim]

Ollie never said we were challenging. We all know we are the best of the rest.
It doesn't put us up with the big boys then, we all know that if we played them in a must win match for both sides we'd come out on the losing side, better manager, better mentality, more desire and better players.

You can't win with so little going for you.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We didnt play in the CC

COC then.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It doesn't put us up with the big boys then, we all know that if we played them in a must win match for both sides we'd come out on the losing side, better manager, better mentality, more desire and better players.

You can't win with so little going for you.

Maybe.

[Özim]

Theo Walcott Celebrating when he made it 6-5 in the CC shoed he cares very much. And he's not the only one.

The way the team Celebrated after we beat city, although a bit cringy, showed they care a hell of alot.
It was a good comeback after being 4-0 down, of course they're going to celebrate a lot, that doesn't happen very often.

They won't be too downbeat when we lose though, they can go back to their expensive homes, in their expensive cars, with their expensive wags and go eat out or go shopping for designer gear.

Even the kids who haven't played in the 1st team are driving around in performance cars.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Let's be honest here, Liverpool have got barely a striker and are sh*t at the moment.

Spurs are OK but I'm not a fan of Villas-Boas, I don't think he's much cop as he proved at Chelsea.

Man U are better but aren't the side they once were, they got a lucky win last weekend (and it was lucky), but the best two sides are clearly Chelsea and City, Ferguson is the only thing that sets them apart from rest of us, that and the fact they signed one of the best strikers in the league last summer. Their defence is appalling.

Even if we won both those games (and it's a big if), we'd screw it up, we always do, challenging isn't about winning the odd big game it's about consistency and building on good wins without bottling when times get tough.

ok
1. liverpool being shit - fair point, to me its still a big game because it is liverpool at anfield but lets move on

2. true, villas boas isnt the best, however he did manager to get a win at OT a few weeks ago. and imo, it never matters how spurs play before a derby, they always make it tough on the day so any win over them is a good won. just because it is the derby game

3. united, not great as they were once were but still a very good team. however, could ferguson be losing his touch? he failed to get them motivated enough against basel and they were knocked out the CL, and the fact they fucked up an 8 point lead over their rivals?

4. city and chelsea - yes they are streets ahead of us. wont be challenging them over a season but in a game, i think we can compete with them. hopefully the racism row will fuck chelsea up

[Olivier's xmas twist]

It was a good comeback after being 4-0 down, of course they're going to celebrate a lot, that doesn't happen very often.

They won't be too downbeat when we lose though, they can go back to their expensive homes, in their expensive cars, with their expensive wags and go eat out or go shopping for designer gear.


Like the modern they footballer then.

[Özim]

Like the modern they footballer then.
Yup, difference is ours seem to lack any desire whatsoever to succeed, at least at some of the other top teams a few players seem genuinely bothered by losses or failures to win.

I don't see any real desire in our team, defeat just seems to be one of those things for them. If you don't have desire you'll never win anything.

Sometimes that desire comes from within a player, when it doesn't it comes from the manager...sadly we don't have a manager who can motivate players to show that level of hunger on the pitch.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yup, difference is ours seem to lack any desire whatsoever to succeed, at least at some of the other top teams a few players seem genuinely bothered by losses or failures to win.

I don't see any real desire in our team, defeat just seems to be one of those things for them. If you don't have desire you'll never win anything.

Sometimes that desire comes from within a player, when it doesn't it comes from the manager...sadly we don't have a manager who can motivate players to show that level of hunger on the pitch.

Thats why you have a Captain the lead the players on the pitch.

t least at some of the other top teams a few players seem genuinely bothered by losses or failures to win.

Whats to say ours don't. let me guess cause Santi came off laughing after that defeat he must not care. Our players Obviouly care about loosing hence why most keep leaving.

Football has changed at least 1 player has mates on the other teams, well least in the top games. So its understandable they be polite to them after a game, even if we have just lost.

[Özim]

Thats why you have a Captain the lead the players on the pitch.


Whats to say ours don't. let me guess cause Santi came off laughing after that defeat he must not care. Our players Obviouly care about loosing hence why most keep leaving.
Wenger doesn't believe in captains, we haven't had a decent on since Vieira to be honest.

Their performances on the pitch when it really matters, the way they disappear when the going gets tough, no stomach for the fight? When do you see our players closing down teams, chasing every ball and making the opposition work hard just to keep hold of the ball?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Yup, difference is ours seem to lack any desire whatsoever to succeed, at least at some of the other top teams a few players seem genuinely bothered by losses or failures to win.

I don't see any real desire in our team, defeat just seems to be one of those things for them. If you don't have desire you'll never win anything.

Sometimes that desire comes from within a player, when it doesn't it comes from the manager...sadly we don't have a manager who can motivate players to show that level of hunger on the pitch.

i disagree with this. we have some too, apparently santi was in bits after the loss to norwich. but do you think superstars like hazard at chelsea or aguero at city give a shit about losing?

very few players will care, with us, i can think of a few, arteta, jenkinson, jack with city, united, chelsea it will be jsut the same, one or two.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger doesn't believe in captains, we haven't had a decent on since Vieira to be honest.

Their performances on the pitch when it really matters, the way they disappear when the going gets tough, no stomach for the fight? When do you see our players closing down teams, chasing every ball and making the opposition work hard just to keep hold of the ball?

Clearly Rubbish as Cesc and RVP were excellent. And led the team and motivated them well.

[Cripps_orig]

Clearly Rubbish as Cesc and RVP were excellent. And led the team and motivated them well.

:blink:

[Marc Overmars]

Cesc wasn't a good captain. He was weak and could rarely lift the team when things went wrong.

RVC was good but he would have still carried us armband or not.

[GP]

The concept of a captain in football is massively overrated anyway. In rugby a captain has a purpose in organising scrums and lineouts and such. What does he do in football? Call the coin toss? Big whoop.

[Özim]

i disagree with this. we have some too, apparently santi was in bits after the loss to norwich. but do you think superstars like hazard at chelsea or aguero at city give a shit about losing?

very few players will care, with us, i can think of a few, arteta, jenkinson, jack with city, united, chelsea it will be jsut the same, one or two.
I'm really not convinced, players who really care show real annoyance when they lose, they don't hang around and have a laugh with their mates.

[Özim]

Cesc wasn't a good captain. He was weak and could rarely lift the team when things went wrong.

RVC was good but he would have still carried us armband or not.
Totally agree.

A good captain, holds the team together when things are tough, leads by example and gets players going when they're not performing or giving 100%. The importance of a good captain can not be understated.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I'm really not convinced, players who really care show real annoyance when they lose, they don't hang around and have a laugh with their mates.

true but we all show annoyance in different ways. some people will laugh at the time, go home and be annoyed there. some will be annoyed on the pitch etc etc

[Özim]

true but we all show annoyance in different ways. some people will laugh at the time, go home and be annoyed there. some will be annoyed on the pitch etc etc
I don't know anyone who shows their annoyance but smiling and laughing tbh.

[Grebbo]

I haven't been optimistic before any game for about 2yrs. Against the big boys it's a case of praying for a miracle.

This team is a million miles away from Chavs/City/Manure

[Özim]

This team is a million miles away from Chavs/City/Manure
That's very optimistic tbh.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I'm really not convinced, players who really care show real annoyance when they lose, they don't hang around and have a laugh with their mates.

Who cares if they don't look pissed after the whistle goes. So what if they talk to their mates after the game. If they just cause a player don't look upset don't mean he is not. Not everyone shows it. You have no idea what goes on when they go in the dressing room.

End of the day Football has changed, players have changed. The way players greet each other in the tunnel before a game and have jokes. You never saw that in the old days. When we used to play the manc, we saw the players at it before they went on the field. now its all hugs and kisses.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The concept of a captain in football is massively overrated anyway. In rugby a captain has a purpose in organising scrums and lineouts and such. What does he do in football? Call the coin toss? Big whoop.

:lol:


i disagree with this. we have some too, apparently santi was in bits after the loss to norwich. but do you think superstars like hazard at chelsea or aguero at city give a shit about losing?

very few players will care, with us, i can think of a few, arteta, jenkinson, jack with city, united, chelsea it will be jsut the same, one or two.

Pretty much, like most players these days, might care for an hour then you'll see then in the clubs laughing it off.

Cesc wasn't a good captain. He was weak and could rarely lift the team when things went wrong.

RVC was good but he would have still carried us armband or not.

Well he was not a Terry or a Keane or a PV4. But with the players he had to work with he did fine.

Vieira was a great captain and let by example, but with him he had leaders on the pitch, he had winners, who knew how to win, so its easy to motivate a team like that.

Cesc was pretty much running the show and at a young age too.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

every week tbh

with this pile of shit you never know how low they will stoop once they step foot on that pitch

in terms of tomorrow, it'll be the same tactics fergie has been using for years; overload central midfield to stop our creativity then use wide men to hit our full backs.

works every time.

[Letters]

The concept of a captain in football is massively overrated anyway. In rugby a captain has a purpose in organising scrums and lineouts and such. What does he do in football? Call the coin toss? Big whoop.
I don't agree. Adams was a great captain and I remember reading Dixon saying how before his first North London Derby Adams had him up against the wall ( ## ) making it very clear to him how important the game was. It's more than leading by example (which our recent captains have done), it's about leading the team on the pitch.
A for example was vs QPR, Santos' positional sense is all over the shop but I didn't once see Vermaelan yelling at him, telling him to sort himself out. I do think it's quite important and something which we've lacked at times in the last few years. When things aren't going well out there you need a strong captain to gee them up and sort it out.

That said, things like "Wenger doesn't believe in captains" and the idea that our players don't care about losing is pure Zimmshit.

[Özim]

That said, things like "Wenger doesn't believe in captains" and the idea that our players don't care about losing is pure Zimmshit.
That's plainly untrue, Wenger has actually been quoted as saying captains are not that important in his eyes, so please get your facts right.

As for players not caring about losing, well there's different degrees, some will be angry about it, others will just brush it off as another loss, our players seem to fall in the latter category IMO, you wouldn't have seen Adams and co laughing and happy after a defeat that's for sure!

[Cripps_orig]

Pretty much.

Players going out clubbing after a defeat etc

Real signs of caring

[Olivier's xmas twist]

you wouldn't have seen Adams and co laughing and happy after a defeat that's for sure!

Thats because football has changed. Not all footballers are the same. Some of the way players go down, you'd not see the old school players do that. You'd never see a Vinnie Jones Go down like he was hit by a tone of bricks.

The game has moved on. Players are diffrent. You even see Barca players smiling after they loose games. its just the way it is.

Poldoski, has been saying he wants to win trophies with us, before he got here and has been saying it ever since, im sure he is cut up when we lose.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Pretty much.

Players going out clubbing after a defeat etc

Real signs of caring

All players do it not just ours.

[GP]

All players fo it not just ours.

No.

Unless players jump off the roof after a defeat, they don't care.

[Letters]

Quoted? But you say everything he says is bullshit. When anyone else points to anything he says you dismiss it.
When it backs up your argument you use it.
Goalpost shifting, much?

We haven't had a great captain since Vieira but I doubt that's because Wenger doesn't think the role is important.
I'm sure for all his rhetoric he doesn't think our squad is good enough but he's not going to come out and say that, if we don't have a strong captain then better to underplay it than highlight it as a problem.

I don't expect our players to be slitting their wrists after defeats but they don't exactly look happy about it.
What are you criticising, that they might go out that evening and have a good time.
What are they supposed to do that evening, sit at home crying? Do you think players of other teams do that? I seriously doubt it.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No.

Unless players jump off the roof after a defeat, they don't care.

True very true.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I don't agree. Adams was a great captain and I remember reading Dixon saying how before his first North London Derby Adams had him up against the wall ( ## ) making it very clear to him how important the game was. It's more than leading by example (which our recent captains have done), it's about leading the team on the pitch.
A for example was vs QPR, Santos' positional sense is all over the shop but I didn't once see Vermaelan yelling at him, telling him to sort himself out. I do think it's quite important and something which we've lacked at times in the last few years. When things aren't going well out there you need a strong captain to gee them up and sort it out.

That said, things like "Wenger doesn't believe in captains" and the idea that our players don't care about losing is pure Zimmshit.

Problem is, Verms himself is a bit shit which makes it almost impossible for him to lead by example. He's probably cognizant of this and it possibly makes him think twice about barking at a total fuck up like Santos.

We need to select a player with some grit and determination combined with knowing what the fuck he's doing on the pitch, for the captains role. Sadly, we haven't had one since Vierra.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Quoted? But you say everything he says is bullshit. When anyone else points to anything he says you dismiss it.
When it backs up your argument you use it.
Goalpost shifting, much?

We haven't had a great captain since Vieira but I doubt that's because Wenger doesn't think the role is important.
I'm sure for all his rhetoric he doesn't think our squad is good enough but he's not going to come out and say that, if we don't have a strong captain then better to underplay it than highlight it as a problem.

I don't expect our players to be slitting their wrists after defeats but they don't exactly look happy about it.
What are you criticising, that they might go out that evening and have a good time.
What are they supposed to do that evening, sit at home crying? Do you think players of other teams do that? I seriously doubt it.

Don't worry if that was Chelsea players doing that, he'll be telling us how fine it is and what do you expect them to do cry etc.

[Letters]

Problem is, Verms himself is a bit shit which makes it almost impossible for him to lead by example. He's probably cognizant of this and it possibly makes him think twice about barking at a total fuck up like Santos.

We need to select a player with some grit and determination combined with knowing what the fuck he's doing on the pitch, for the captains role. Sadly, we haven't had one since Vierra.
I don't agree with that. I rate Vermaelan and I thought he'd be a good captain, but now he is I think I was probably wrong.

Wilshere, maybe?

[GP]

I don't agree with that. I rate Vermaelan and I thought he'd be a good captain, but now he is I think I was probably wrong.

Wilshere, maybe?

Arteta, if anyone.

[Özim]

Thats because football has changed. Not all footballers are the same. Some of the way players go down, you'd not see the old school players do that. You'd never see a Vinnie Jones Go down like he was hit by a tone of bricks.

The game has moved on. Players are diffrent. You even see Barca players smiling after they loose games. its just the way it is.

Poldoski, has been saying he wants to win trophies with us, before he got here and has been saying it ever since, im sure he is cut up when we lose.
I don't agree, the game has changed but a winner is a winner...and those players hate losing. Barca hate losing you can see it from their reaction when their behind, likewise Real, Man City, Chelsea.....they react badly to losing and sometimes react stupidly (we use to).

Nowadays we really don't seem overly bothered, there's no fight, non show of annoyance or anger....nothing really.

[Dennis Bendtner]

I don't think Wenger sees the captaincy as important. Well, aside from in the sense of massaging the ego of players that want out. But that's the largely continental view of most bar the British, and I agree really. Look at the successes of those who just give the captaincy to the goalkeeper or default to the most experienced player e.g. Spain for the last four years. The character of the collective will ultimately determine how successful you are, rather than someone wearing an armband. Man Utd's captaincy has been shared between four or five players (if we're talking in the sense of only the Arsenal captaincy being a hot potato), generally just dictated by experience. A lot of people on here liked whatever Van Persie was doing as captain, which was ultimately scoring a shitload of goals. Hardly the conventional shouter.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't agree with that. I rate Vermaelan and I thought he'd be a good captain, but now he is I think I was probably wrong.

Wilshere, maybe?

The problem is, when Santi comes out and says, everyone listen's to Arteta more, or he is the real captain, it sort of says they don't take TV5 seriously.

And maybe he feels they don't. I don't think Jack needs that pressure now. TV5 has had shockers this season, but i guess as being vice captain it had to be him who got it.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I don't agree with that. I rate Vermaelan and I thought he'd be a good captain, but now he is I think I was probably wrong.

Wilshere, maybe?

What exactly don't you agree with?


Wilshere seems a good pick. Always heading in the right direction when he gets the ball, the kind of player others would probably look up to, a quality player who can only get better - my only fear is that we'll lose him as soon as that band is strapped around arm.

[Cripps_orig]

All players do it not just ours.

Probably but we are talking about our players here

[Özim]

Quoted? But you say everything he says is bullshit. When anyone else points to anything he says you dismiss it.
When it backs up your argument you use it.
Goalpost shifting, much?

We haven't had a great captain since Vieira but I doubt that's because Wenger doesn't think the role is important.
I'm sure for all his rhetoric he doesn't think our squad is good enough but he's not going to come out and say that, if we don't have a strong captain then better to underplay it than highlight it as a problem.

I don't expect our players to be slitting their wrists after defeats but they don't exactly look happy about it.
What are you criticising, that they might go out that evening and have a good time.
What are they supposed to do that evening, sit at home crying? Do you think players of other teams do that? I seriously doubt it.
Yeah he's really going to BS about that isn't he.

He talks a helluvah lot of BS no doubt, but obviously not everything he says is, his personal feelings about how a team should be obviously aren't, those are just his opinions (wrong perhaps but opinions nonetheless).

Like I said Wenger has said as much, in addition look at the players he signs, do you see any leaders in there? Sometimes when you lack leadership you buy a player (or several) who can offer that in addition to other things obviously.

I really don't think we're that bothered, I watched Cazorla after our loss the other week and the guy was laughing with his pal, he's not the only one how many of our players actually look dejected after defeat? I expect some annoyance at losing, not the "we lost oh well" attitude we seem to have.

[Letters]

I don't agree, the game has changed but a winner is a winner...and those players hate losing. Barca hate losing you can see it from their reaction when their behind, likewise Real, Man City, Chelsea.....they react badly to losing and sometimes react stupidly (we use to).

Nowadays we really don't seem overly bothered, there's no fight, non show of annoyance or anger....nothing really.You always moan about what a bad loser Wenger is and what a dick he makes of himself when we lose (which he does). When it suits your argument you say we don't care. Clearly our players care. Do they sit around for days afterwards in tears, not wanting to see anyone? No. Do players of any club do that? No.

I think our players care enough, they're just not good enough (to compete with the top few, we're better than most other teams)

[Özim]

I don't agree with that. I rate Vermaelan and I thought he'd be a good captain, but now he is I think I was probably wrong.

Wilshere, maybe?
Vermaelen isn't even a well disciplined defender so why the hell you would make him captain I don't know. A captain should not only be a player who is going to be a regular (and deserves to be) but also someone who clearly shows leadership ability, I'm not sure Vermaelen ever has. The problem is we don't really have any leaders as Wenger doesn't seem to think it's an important trait to have for a player.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I don't agree, the game has changed but a winner is a winner...and those players hate losing. Barca hate losing you can see it from their reaction when their behind, likewise Real, Man City, Chelsea.....they react badly to losing and sometimes react stupidly (we use to).

Nowadays we really don't seem overly bothered, there's no fight, non show of annoyance or anger....nothing really.

Not games i have watched. I have seen yaya toure simile after losses, Seen few Barca players do the same, see a few madrid players too. it happens maybe its a foreign thing but it happens.

Who cares if they smile on camera its what they do in the next game thats important. So they don't look dissapointed when the come off so what. their reaction is not for the fans its for themselves. they don't need to show anything to the fans.

As long as they get in the dressing room and done wrong thats enough for them.

[Letters]

Yeah he's really going to BS about that isn't he.
So you decide whether he's BSing or not depending on whether he's saying something you've already decided he believes. Fair enough

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You always moan about what a bad loser Wenger is and what a dick he makes of himself when we lose (which he does). When it suits your argument you say we don't care. Clearly our players care. Do they sit around for days afterwards in tears, not wanting to see anyone? No. Do players of any club do that? No.

I think our players care enough, they're just not good enough (to compete with the top few, we're better than most other teams)

Exactly their is a diffrence in not been good enough and not caring.

[GP]

Logic :lol:

[Özim]

You always moan about what a bad loser Wenger is and what a dick he makes of himself when we lose (which he does). When it suits your argument you say we don't care. Clearly our players care. Do they sit around for days afterwards in tears, not wanting to see anyone? No. Do players of any club do that? No.

I think our players care enough, they're just not good enough (to compete with the top few, we're better than most other teams)
He's a bad loser alright, however he never does jack sh*t about it....so it's pretty meaningless...it's OK stamping your little feet however if you then don't react to the issues either you've got a short term memory or it doesn't bother you enough.

I'm sorry but the guy is a loser in my eyes, he settles for 4th place every season and is thrilled with it, that's a losers mentality if ever I've seen one.

Our players are not good enough that's true, but then the Graham teams weren't filled with stars and yet they beat superior teams and won stuff due to sheer desire and leadership.

[Letters]

Vermaelen isn't even a well disciplined defender so why the hell you would make him captain I don't know. A captain should not only be a player who is going to be a regular (and deserves to be) but also someone who clearly shows leadership ability, I'm not sure Vermaelen ever has. The problem is we don't really have any leaders as Wenger doesn't seem to think it's an important trait to have for a player.
Before we appointed him I thought he'd be a decent captain. Plenty on here agreed.
As for the players Wenger signs, a few of them are or have been captains for their countries...

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I really don't think we're that bothered, I watched Cazorla after our loss the other week and the guy was laughing with his pal, he's not the only one how many of our players actually look dejected after defeat? I expect some annoyance at losing, not the "we lost oh well" attitude we seem to have.

So what. Who cares. End of the day Santi will deliver and excellent performance in his next game thats all that matters, who care he did not cry cause we lost.

[Özim]

Not games i have watched. I have seen yaya toure simile after losses, Seen few Barca players do the same, see a few madrid players too. it happens maybe its a foreign thing but it happens.

Who cares if they smile on camera its what they do in the next game thats important. So they don't look dissapointed when the come off so what. their reaction is not for the fans its for themselves. they don't need to show anything to the fans.

As long as they get in the dressing room and done wrong thats enough for them.
Well they never react to defeat so they're hardly that bothered, you don't see them chasing every ball in the next game or working even harder...it's the same old sh*t every match.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He's a bad loser alright, however he never does jack sh*t about it....so it's pretty meaningless...it's OK stamping your little feet however if you then don't react to the issues either you've got a short term memory or it doesn't bother you enough.

I'm sorry but the guy is a loser in my eyes, he settles for 4th place every season and is thrilled with it, that's a losers mentality if ever I've seen one.

Our players are not good enough that's true, but then the Graham teams weren't filled with stars and yet they beat superior teams and won stuff due to sheer desire and leadership.

Yeah because Wenger never won stuff :doh:

[Özim]

Before we appointed him I thought he'd be a decent captain. Plenty on here agreed.
As for the players Wenger signs, a few of them are or have been captains for their countries...
Just because they are captain for their countries it doesn't mean that much, if they are captains for big nations that have a large choice fair enough, but for smaller nations with few quality players the better known players playing in bigger leagues are usually captains but not necessarily on merit.

[Özim]

Yeah because Wenger never won stuff :doh:
Not for 7 years no

Adams and Vieira did the jobs for him before that, kinda inherited some of that form Graham tbh.

[Letters]

Just because they are captain for their countries it doesn't mean that much.
:lol:

:ilt:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Well they never react to defeat so they're hardly that bothered, you don't see them chasing every ball in the next game or working even harder...it's the same old sh*t every match.

Well if they win the next game who cares, every game is diffrent. So because they never chased the ball down but won the game they should be ashamed of themselves.

[Özim]

So what. Who cares. End of the day Santi will deliver and excellent performance in his next game thats all that matters, who care he did not cry cause we lost.
He's not really been that great to be honest, good in a few matches but hardly been setting the matches on fire recently in our bad run.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not for 7 years no

Adams and Vieira did the jobs for him before that, kinda inherited some of that form Graham tbh.

You said Graham's team won stuff, So did Wengers has nothing to do with this 7 years or last 7 years, he has won stuff with his teams, maybe not this croppm but still won stuff.

[Özim]

:lol:

:ilt:
Here we go, the usual reaction from you, you run out of things to say so start doing sh*t like this.

Senderos was captain of Switzerland was he not....there's plenty of other examples...as usual you don't have a clue.

Like I said if you've got plenty of quality and players with leadership skills to choose from then it obviously means something, but many smaller International teams don't so they appoint their most famous player...plenty of examples of that, thus being captain of your country doesn't necessarily mean you're a good captain.

[Özim]

Well if they win the next game who cares, every game is diffrent. So because they never chased the ball down but won the game they should be ashamed of themselves.
The didn't though did they? The lost to Schalke.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The didn't though did they? The lost to Schalke.

Twisting things as ususal.

[Özim]

You said Graham's team won stuff, So did Wengers has nothing to do with this 7 years or last 7 years, he has won stuff with his teams, maybe not this croppm but still won stuff.
7 years since he won stuff like I said and in that time he's had no real captains, no real fight in the team and that hasn't helped. We haven't won anything as he changed the style of play to this stupid tippy tappy cr*p, starting signing players who were the polar opposite of what we had and chose kids over quality.

[Özim]

Twising things as ususal.
Not really, you mentioned winning the next game, I pointed out that after Norwich we lost another game...and that was on the back of a defeat by Chelsea not so long before as well...so there you go it seems they don't care :lol:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Fact of the matter is Verm was never good enough to be a consistent 1st teamer, something which the captain band has now mandated.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We haven't won anything as he changed the style of play to this stupid tippy tappy cr*p, starting .

Yeah thats why we have not won things cause of the football we play :haha:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not really, you mentioned winning the next game, I pointed out that after Norwich we lost another game...and that was on the back of a defeat by Chelsea not so long before as well...so there you go it seems they don't care :lol:

Read my post again, never mentiond the norwich game. But they use what you want to suit your argument.


Well if they win the next game who cares, every game is diffrent. So because they never chased the ball down but won the game they should be ashamed of themselves.

Was not talking about the Norwich game was talking about in general, but only you could twist it into something else.

[Özim]

It's certainly one of the reasons, only Barca can pull it off and they are a million miles better than us....and even they struggle against teams like Chelsea who are organised defensively.

If you analyse things, we had a winning formula, with the style, type of players etc etc and Wenger changed everything to almost the polar opposite...on that basis he looks a bit of a tool right now.

[Özim]

Read my post again, never mentiond the norwich game. But they use what you want to suit your argument.
You mentioned the next game but I was pointing out an example of this where we didn't react. Who cares if you mention the Norwich game, we didn't lose our last match so your point is pointless basically.

As for winning our next game, highly unlikely I'd say.

[Özim]

Was not talking about the Norwich game was talking about in general, but only you could twist it into something else.
In general we react badly to defeat and lose or draw further games after this so your point is incorrect.

We never react to defeats by trying harder, if anything we go missing even more.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

We don't win things because we don't have top draw players. I'll give you that, you'll be biased to tippy tappy, cause you hate when Barca do it you said as much. And if you don't like it fair play its your point. i agree its not the most exciting to watch.

We don't win, becuase yeah Wenger gets his tactics wrong alot of the time, or puts players like Gev up top when he is not a striker.

Way i see it, it don't matter what formation you play, if you don't have the players, it won't work anyways. Teams like City and Real can play 442 they have the players to do it. So it works for them. I agree AW is stubborn and likes to do things his way.

I don't mind 433 when you have the right players to do it and i think Barca play the best football in the world, but as you saw, in the CL last season its not always effective. But people like Cryuff and Wenger will insist on it cause they love it.

Heck Cryuff said he'd rather lose with it, then win with something else.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

We don't win things because we don't have top draw players. I'll give you that, you'll be biased to tippy tappy, cause you hate when Barca do it you said as much. And if you don't like it fair play its your point. i agree its not the most exciting to watch.

We don't win, becuase yeah Wenger gets his tactics wrong alot of the time, or puts players like Gev up top when he is not a striker.

Way i see it, it don't matter what formation you play, if you don't have the players, it won't work anyways. Teams like City and Real can play 442 they have the players to do it. So it works for them. I agree AW is stubborn and likes to do things his way.

I don't mind 433 when you have the right players to do it and i think Barca play the best football in the world, but as you saw, in the CL last season its not always effective. But people like Cryuff and Wenger will insist on it cause they love it.

Heck Cryuff said he'd rather lose with it, then win with something else.

Got a feeling that NQ has hacked Charlie's account

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Got a feeling that NQ has hacked Charlie's account

NQ, Top, poster, Legend, Leader. :bow:

[Ernesto]

If we can grab a draw at Man City, and give a good account of ourselves, then we can do the same at Old Trafford. They're inferior to Man City.

The major problem is the game-raising ability of Manchester United. They always seem to do it against it. I'm not knocking it, not by any means, but if we're expecting a sleepy, off-the-boil Manchester United as they were against Spurs earlier this season, then I think we're in for yet another rude awakening.

Marry that up with the RVC factor, who'll undoubtedly want to do well against his former club, and it's easy to be filled with trepidation....