is there a scenario for wenger to stay?

[Ollie the Optimist]

lets face the fact that we wont get a new manager till next summer at the earliest. is there a way you would like wenger to stay, or rather feel he deserves to stay based on what he does from now to end of season.

if he won the COC and thats it, should he stay or go?

if he won the cup double would that be good enough?

if he won the champions league?

if we put up a dam good fight from now to the end and lose in finals to the better team?

or is this it, he can go no further with us no matter what he does? these are scenarios, so lets not argue about wehter they can happen etc, just interested to see whether something would make you consider him staying.

[LDG]

For me. It isn't about silverware at all. It's purely about the decisions we make as a club, Wengers part in those decision, and now more than ever, his inability to focus and drill a team of half decent players to beat Norwich.

I would perhaps get back on his side again if he showed willing to rectify his disgustingly basic errors. Make the board a footballing ultimatum, and spend what he has to imrpove the side.

But he won't. He's too stubborn. His priority isn't toward the fans, who ARE the club. His priority is toward the owner of bricks and motar, to his prima donna crew of overpaid pussy's, and to his failed method of playing football.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You have asked similar questions in previous seasons.

I don't mean this in a bad way towards you, but I'm done answering this question - Wenger has become what he has become. He is not going to change so neither will the ethos and performance of the team. We will just see the same results and frustrations, and I'm sick of that.

[Letters]

It's very difficult to make a case for him now. If we did somehow miraculously win the CL then it would of course be stupid to fire him, but that's not going to happen so it's a moo point.

He's not the clueless idiot some of the WUMs on here make out but he is a stubborn fool who is increasingly unable or unwilling to compete at the highest level. I applauded his attempts to win things the 'right' way and he was that close to succeeding. The last 7 years have not been the abject failure the WUMs make out. But some pragmatism is needed now. We can't throw money around like City do but we have the money to compete a lot better than we are right now.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

End of the day, everyone has the time to do things. For me Wenger has done alot for this club, but i feel his part is up. Time for someone else to start their chapter etc. As much as i think its time for change, does not mean i will insult him willy nilly.

Sometimes you have to say thanks for evrything but its time to move on. Id say he is still a good manager, just not what we need anymore. I think he needs a change, somewhere maybe he can get that motivation back.

If he were to stay here then he'd need to slap the board down to size and back the fans or hope the board sell and he gets an owner that will push him. This won't happen anytime soon though.

[Ollie the Optimist]

You have asked similar questions in previous seasons.

I don't mean this in a bad way towards you, but I'm done answering this question - Wenger has become what he has become. He is not going to change so neither will the ethos and performance of the team. We will just see the same results and frustrations, and I'm sick of that.

yeah i know i seem to ask it every season and im sorry if that annoys people, just feel its question that never changes the answer does or at least from some people.

i agree wit LDG, if wenger can cut the crap out and give us a team that fights, doesnt make mistakes and actually tries to win, even if they dont, then thats all i want. 11 carl jenkinsons giving everything they have in every game for Arsenal means more to me then any trophy

[Ollie the Optimist]

however i do think its time for him to go, gutted its ended this way, but honoured to have had him as manager

[Letters]

End of the day, everyone has the time to do things. For me Wenger has done alot for this club, but i feel his part is up. Time for someone else to start their chapter etc. As much as i think its time for change, does not mean i will insult him willy nilly.

Sometimes you have to say thanks for evrything but its time to move on. Id say he is still a good manager, just not what we need anymore. I think he needs a change, somewhere maybe he can get that motivation back.

If he were to stay here then he'd need to slap the board down to size and back the fans or hope the board sell and he gets an owner that will push him. This won't happen anytime soon though.
Agree with all that. Unfortunately I don't think Wenger going will be the end of our problems as IMO the board are far from blameless in all this and while they're still around I think it'll be a bumpy ride when Wenger goes. It might lead us to a better place long term though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger has traded in his goodwill and then some. He backed the board over the fans and the two are mutually exclusive which leaves no room for Wenger. By Wenger I mean any manager who backs our board. So to solve this seemingly impossible situation the board has to go as well. I prefer violence as the means to remove them but accept I may still be in a slight minority. Good luck to anyone trying to talk them into submission.

[Xhaka Can’t]

yeah i know i seem to ask it every season and im sorry if that annoys people, just feel its question that never changes the answer does or at least from some people.

i agree wit LDG, if wenger can cut the crap out and give us a team that fights, doesnt make mistakes and actually tries to win, even if they dont, then thats all i want. 11 carl jenkinsons giving everything they have in every game for Arsenal means more to me then any trophy

It aint you annoying people, it is Wenger and the Board.

I applaud the loyalty you have shown, and if you have come round to the idea that the end of the road has been reached, it really is terminal. :lol:

[Ollie the Optimist]

No he's done, tactically inept, unable to adapt, unable to spot and sort out problems areas in the team, too reliant on crocks season after season, too content with getting 4th and nothing else and has had chance after chance after chance.

It's over for him, there's no way back now, 7 years was much leeway, should have gone years ago and we'd be in a better place right now.

Ollie must be Wenger's illegitimate lovechild or something, I can't think of any other reason he sucks his c*ck everyday :lol:

if you read the post above yours, you will see i said its time for him to go.

[Ollie the Optimist]

It aint you annoying people, it is Wenger and the Board.

I applaud the loyalty you have shown, and if you have come round to the idea that the end of the road has been reached, it really is terminal. :lol:

i think part of the reason i am so loyal is because i only know Arsenal with wenger, and i think part of me is scared of something differet, unlike people like you who have seen change before etc. at the moment i think his time is up, however it wont stop me singing his name on saturday, or gennuinely being in awe of the man, he is an idol of mine. that wont ever change

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Agree with all that. Unfortunately I don't think Wenger going will be the end of our problems as IMO the board are far from blameless in all this and while they're still around I think it'll be a bumpy ride when Wenger goes. It might lead us to a better place long term though.

Oh no im not one of those deluded lot on here who think Wenger going means, we'd win trophies that season. Like NQ says. well its common sense really. Any manager coming in will be a puppet for this board. If the board leaves its a diffrent issue. While these lot are still around not much will change.

Maybe on the pitch maybe, depending on who'd brought in. Don't be shocked to see its Bould tbh can see that happening.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

if you read the post above yours, you will see i said its time for him to go.

:lol:

Zimm just keeps on having those shockers. The new King of Cringe tbh, well was the old one too :haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

i think part of the reason i am so loyal is because i only know Arsenal with wenger, and i think part of me is scared of something differet, unlike people like you who have seen change before etc. at the moment i think his time is up, however it wont stop me singing his name on saturday, or gennuinely being in awe of the man, he is an idol of mine. that wont ever change

I never thought of it like that - you only knowing Arsenal under Wenger.

While I'm sure his time is up - it was a while ago tbh, his early teams have provided me with the best football I've witnessed in my life. I hope to one day be boring the shit out of my grandchildren talking about the teams he put out. We were privileged to witness that - and to just be there, witnessing the Invincibles, I'll never forget that.

I'll always be grateful for what he has done, but his day has passed.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I never thought of it like that - you only knowing Arsenal under Wenger.

While I'm sure his time is up - it was a while ago tbh, his early teams have provided me with the best football I've witnessed in my life. I hope to one day be boring the shit out of my grandchildren talking about the teams he put out. We were privileged to witness that - and to just be there, witnessing the Invincibles, I'll never forget that.

I'll always be grateful for what he has done, but his day has passed.

its easy to forget that i only know one manager. same with united fans my age, they only know one manager.

his time is up, for you was a while ago, for me was this year thats a moot point. we can never forget what he has given us, cheering his departure will be a stupid thing to do, yes most of us will be glad for change, this club needs and while we are happy for change, i bet every single one of us will be gutted to see the back of wenger.

i will never forget what he has done, i will never forget the day i met him, one of my best experiences ever but above i wont forget the joy he gave me in watching his teams.

[Kano]

lets face the fact that we wont get a new manager till next summer at the earliest. is there a way you would like wenger to stay, or rather feel he deserves to stay based on what he does from now to end of season.

if he won the COC and thats it, should he stay or go?

if he won the cup double would that be good enough?

if he won the champions league?

if we put up a dam good fight from now to the end and lose in finals to the better team?

or is this it, he can go no further with us no matter what he does? these are scenarios, so lets not argue about wehter they can happen etc, just interested to see whether something would make you consider him staying.
unfortunately if he hasn't done it already none of the above will be happening this season.

it's best for everyone, including wenger, for him to leave at the end of the season.

thing is ollie, most fans are a little worried what will come next. some of us have seen before him and some, like yourself, haven't. but none of us have ever had a manager stay so long and take us through so many highs. so there is a huge grey area for all of us to come, used to sitting in the comfy 4th spot wenger zone and in that exclusive top four bracket.

but when things have taken a turn for the worse and nothing is on the horizon to change it, its time to give up the ghost and try something new before it really is too late.

[Marc Overmars]

It's not as cut and dry as us winning some silverware. I want to feel like we have a genuine challenge in us, which I don't think we have and haven't had for a long time. I don't want to go into games against tin pot opposition thinking there's every chance we'll stink the place out.

For me Wenger is done, only a dramatic turnaround will see my faith restored in him now, by dramatic I mean getting close to winning the league or CL, neither of which is likely to happen.

I don't get what he's trying to achieve with this team anymore, you can't just buy anyone and expect them to play in a certain way. Managment is about getting the best out of what you have and I don't think he's anywhere close to doing that. That is my biggest issue, he's so blinded by his philosophy he's lost sight of what he actually has at his disposal.

[Power n Glory]

I knew as soon as reality started to set in we'd get back to this sort of conversation. What pisses me off most now is that a lot of the people now complaining about our transfer policy and Wenger's stubborn ways were quite happy to advocate the sale of two of our best players this summer and buying into the bullshit hype machine. You guys need to check yourself!

[gooners]

What pisses me off most now is that a lot of the people now complaining about our transfer policy and Wenger's stubborn ways were quite happy to advocate the sale of two of our best players this summer and buying into the bullshit hype machine. You guys need to check yourself!

relax, was just a severe case of jilted lover syndrome ;)

[Xhaka Can’t]

I knew as soon as reality started to set in we'd get back to this sort of conversation. What pisses me off most now is that a lot of the people now complaining about our transfer policy and Wenger's stubborn ways were quite happy to advocate the sale of two of our best players this summer and buying into the bullshit hype machine. You guys need to check yourself!

I wanted RvP to see out his contract and whatever he decided to do as a free agent was up to him - we may even have won something this season. But I don't recall a majority of posters here WANTING Van Persie to be sold - and to Manchester United at that.

But discussion on that is for a different thread I guess.

[Özim]

I knew as soon as reality started to set in we'd get back to this sort of conversation. What pisses me off most now is that a lot of the people now complaining about our transfer policy and Wenger's stubborn ways were quite happy to advocate the sale of two of our best players this summer and buying into the bullshit hype machine. You guys need to check yourself!
Pretty much, this is a BS thread anyway because after three wins half these people will go back to their old ways.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Can we keep the 'who owned who' discussion over on the Redknapp thread please?

Thanks.

[gooners]

Pretty much, this is a BS thread anyway because after three wins half these people will go back to their old ways.

stockholm syndrome :good:

[gooners]

Can we keep the 'who owned who' discussion over on the Redknapp thread please?

Thanks.

disgusting how redknapp is treated on here

[Ollie the Optimist]

Pretty much, this is a BS thread anyway because after three wins half these people will go back to their old ways.

in back to their old ways, do you mean being happy because their team won? you know, that thing fans do ?

[Xhaka Can’t]

disgusting how redknapp is treated on here

I figure it is what he would have wanted.

[Özim]

in back to their old ways, do you mean being happy because their team won? you know, that thing fans do ?
No I mean stuck up Wenger's arse as usual.....he's like the Arsenal pied piper

[Xhaka Can’t]

Last time.

Take the bitching over to the Redknapp thread.

[V-Pig]

however i do think its time for him to go, gutted its ended this way, but honoured to have had him as manager

This is huge. Is there anyone left in the "Wenger in" brigade?

[Power n Glory]

I wanted RvP to see out his contract and whatever he decided to do as a free agent was up to him - we may even have won something this season. But I don't recall a majority of posters here WANTING Van Persie to be sold - and to Manchester United at that.

But discussion on that is for a different thread I guess.

On this thread and others that have cropped up over the past few weeks. I did say we'd be back to square one when the shit hits the fan and we're struggling.

It's not just RVP. It's Song and it's Walcott.

In fact, with RVP, it's now pretty clear that the club didn't but Podolski and Giroud as additions but replacements. A lot of people were arguing against that and said RVP was out of order for saying we lacked ambition because we signed players. Now look. I won't say much more.

[Kano]

I knew as soon as reality started to set in we'd get back to this sort of conversation. What pisses me off most now is that a lot of the people now complaining about our transfer policy and Wenger's stubborn ways were quite happy to advocate the sale of two of our best players this summer and buying into the bullshit hype machine. You guys need to check yourself!
i actually think you are way out of step with most fans with this post. it really doesn't matter who was ahead of who when it came to giving up on wenger/the board because we are all here for one thing. i'm not sure when it was you realised things needed to drastically change but i can bet there was someone else who was ahead of you in thinking the same; when you realised, did you want to hear smugness from that other guy?

the divide driven between fans by wenger/board over the past 4/5 years is just as dangerous as the problems in the boardroom and on the pitch. but fans can't be blamed for sticking with wenger because none of us have seen anything like him during our time supporting arsenal and i don't mean in the sense of lauding him for success or any failures. the huge amount of affection toward wenger is not to be underestimated and for all of us it is a big step into the unknown. some are more eager for it and others more fearful but we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's the only thing that matters especially when its the bad times like this.

[Xhaka Can’t]

On this thread and others that have cropped up over the past few weeks. I did say we'd be back to square one when the shit hits the fan and we're struggling.

It's not just RVP. It's Song and it's Walcott.

In fact, with RVP, it's now pretty clear that the club didn't but Podolski and Giroud as additions but replacements. A lot of people were arguing against that and said RVP was out of order for saying we lacked ambition because we signed players. Now look. I won't say much more.

It probably is worth starting a thread on it.

[Özim]

In fact, with RVP, it's now pretty clear that the club didn't but Podolski and Giroud as additions but replacements. A lot of people were arguing against that and said RVP was out of order for saying we lacked ambition because we signed players. Now look. I won't say much more.
Spot on, it was clear they were replacements...the club planned it all along, it's amazing fans turned on him claiming we were showing ambition...total BS.

I was gutted he moved as he was a great player, but I'm not surprised...as for moving to Man U, not ideal but then people always said moving to Man U would be a move for ambition......as soon as he does...they say he's going there for money....total hypocrites to be honest.

[gooners]

This is huge. Is there anyone left in the "Wenger in" brigade?

wenger, PHW, kroenke, gazidis and their coffers --- i.e. all those who matter :good:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

A Thread that started so well turned to shit only on GW eh :coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

I knew as soon as reality started to set in we'd get back to this sort of conversation. What pisses me off most now is that a lot of the people now complaining about our transfer policy and Wenger's stubborn ways were quite happy to advocate the sale of two of our best players this summer and buying into the bullshit hype machine. You guys need to check yourself!

People were happy at the sale of RvC and Sung? Not many surely?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is huge. Is there anyone left in the "Wenger in" brigade?

Oh go on then, Wenger :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

i actually think you are way out of step with most fans with this post. it really doesn't matter who was ahead of who when it came to giving up on wenger/the board because we are all here for one thing. i'm not sure when it was you realised things needed to drastically change but i can bet there was someone else who was ahead of you in thinking the same; when you realised, did you want to hear smugness from that other guy?

the divide driven between fans by wenger/board over the past 4/5 years is just as dangerous as the problems in the boardroom and on the pitch. but fans can't be blamed for sticking with wenger because none of us have seen anything like him during our time supporting arsenal and i don't mean in the sense of lauding him for success or any failures. the huge amount of affection toward wenger is not to be underestimated and for all of us it is a big step into the unknown. some are more eager for it and others more fearful but we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's the only thing that matters especially when its the bad times like this.

Good posting and well said. If Wenger ends up going then let him go with thanks for what he delivered in his time here, and it wasn't just the football. His departure on the back of the last few years will surely be enough without fans rubbing it in and cheering him out the door.

[Power n Glory]

i actually think you are way out of step with most fans with this post. it really doesn't matter who was ahead of who when it came to giving up on wenger/the board because we are all here for one thing. i'm not sure when it was you realised things needed to drastically change but i can bet there was someone else who was ahead of you in thinking the same; when you realised, did you want to hear smugness from that other guy?

the divide driven between fans by wenger/board over the past 4/5 years is just as dangerous as the problems in the boardroom and on the pitch. but fans can't be blamed for sticking with wenger because none of us have seen anything like him during our time supporting arsenal and i don't mean in the sense of lauding him for success or any failures. the huge amount of affection toward wenger is not to be underestimated and for all of us it is a big step into the unknown. some are more eager for it and others more fearful but we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's the only thing that matters especially when its the bad times like this.

To be honest, I don't care if I'm out of step with most fans. I'm pissed off and tired of having these sort of debates each season. It's a wake up call. We had the exact same discussions after Cesc and Nasri left and it's déjà vu. I'm pissed off with Wenger repeating the same steps, players repeating the same shitty performances and pissed off with the discussions on here too. We've still got people advocating the sale of our top goal scorer now! It was the same discussion with RVP and the same with Cesc. Fans deluding themselves into thinking we'd be better off or ok without them. Call it smugness if you like, but I don't care. I'm just pissed off because last season we had the same sort of in depth discussions. It's not just Wenger that's on a loop.

[Niall_Quinn]

Spot on, it was clear they were replacements...the club planned it all along, it's amazing fans turned on him claiming we were showing ambition...total BS.

I was gutted he moved as he was a great player, but I'm not surprised...as for moving to Man U, not ideal but then people always said moving to Man U would be a move for ambition......as soon as he does...they say he's going there for money....total hypocrites to be honest.

RvC moved from Arsenal to Man Utd. Case closed, the rest pales into insignificance beside that act of betrayal. Really, end of story.

[Özim]

RvC moved from Arsenal to Man Utd. Case closed, the rest pales into insignificance beside that act of betrayal. Really, end of story.
The club sold him, I'd say they are guiltier of betrayal....they took the money and were happy to sell him, they didn't give a sh*t about the fans either. That's the bottom line.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

The club sold him, I'd say they are guiltier of betrayal....they took the money and were happy to sell him, they didn't give a sh*t about the fans either. That's the bottom line.

Yes because Van persie really gives a shit about you.

[Ollie the Optimist]

The club sold him, I'd say they are guiltier of betrayal....they took the money and were happy to sell him, they didn't give a sh*t about the fans either. That's the bottom line.

you would be right, if he hadnt realsed that statement which made it impossible for him to stay leaving us with no option but to sell. he didnt care about us either

[Xhaka Can’t]

i actually think you are way out of step with most fans with this post. it really doesn't matter who was ahead of who when it came to giving up on wenger/the board because we are all here for one thing. i'm not sure when it was you realised things needed to drastically change but i can bet there was someone else who was ahead of you in thinking the same; when you realised, did you want to hear smugness from that other guy?

the divide driven between fans by wenger/board over the past 4/5 years is just as dangerous as the problems in the boardroom and on the pitch. but fans can't be blamed for sticking with wenger because none of us have seen anything like him during our time supporting arsenal and i don't mean in the sense of lauding him for success or any failures. the huge amount of affection toward wenger is not to be underestimated and for all of us it is a big step into the unknown. some are more eager for it and others more fearful but we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's the only thing that matters especially when its the bad times like this.

This is the best post I've read today.

[gooners]

The club sold him, I'd say they are guiltier of betrayal....they took the money and were happy to sell him, they didn't give a sh*t about the fans either. That's the bottom line.

perhaps rvp should have moved to juventus even though it wasn't the best move for his career; or

moved to city and given the jilted fans ammo for their 'greedy' rants

[Niall_Quinn]

To be honest, I don't care if I'm out of step with most fans. I'm pissed off and tired of having these sort of debates each season. It's a wake up call. We had the exact same discussions after Cesc and Nasri left and it's déjà vu. I'm pissed off with Wenger repeating the same steps, players repeating the same shitty performances and pissed off with the discussions on here too. We've still got people advocating the sale of our top goal scorer now! It was the same discussion with RVP and the same with Cesc. Fans deluding themselves into thinking we'd be better off or ok without them. Call it smugness if you like, but I don't care. I'm just pissed off because last season we had the same sort of in depth discussions. It's not just Wenger that's on a loop.

We'll be better off without Wilshere, wait and see.

[Niall_Quinn]

The club sold him, I'd say they are guiltier of betrayal....they took the money and were happy to sell him, they didn't give a sh*t about the fans either. That's the bottom line.

Don't care, la, la, la, not listening. RvC is a ****.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i actually think you are way out of step with most fans with this post. it really doesn't matter who was ahead of who when it came to giving up on wenger/the board because we are all here for one thing. i'm not sure when it was you realised things needed to drastically change but i can bet there was someone else who was ahead of you in thinking the same; when you realised, did you want to hear smugness from that other guy?

the divide driven between fans by wenger/board over the past 4/5 years is just as dangerous as the problems in the boardroom and on the pitch. but fans can't be blamed for sticking with wenger because none of us have seen anything like him during our time supporting arsenal and i don't mean in the sense of lauding him for success or any failures. the huge amount of affection toward wenger is not to be underestimated and for all of us it is a big step into the unknown. some are more eager for it and others more fearful but we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's the only thing that matters especially when its the bad times like this.

Top post.

[Özim]

Yes because Van persie really gives a shit about you.
No and neither does Wenger or the club.

[Özim]

you would be right, if he hadnt realsed that statement which made it impossible for him to stay leaving us with no option but to sell. he didnt care about us either
That's a cop out, you'd always find some excuse to blame the player rather than the club....fact is we've been doing this for years, it our own fault, we chose to sell all those players.

The club do it over and over again and somehow it's always the players fault.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No and neither does Wenger or the club.

Neither would any manager coming in.

[gooners]

i actually think you are way out of step with most fans with this post. it really doesn't matter who was ahead of who when it came to giving up on wenger/the board because we are all here for one thing. i'm not sure when it was you realised things needed to drastically change but i can bet there was someone else who was ahead of you in thinking the same; when you realised, did you want to hear smugness from that other guy?

the divide driven between fans by wenger/board over the past 4/5 years is just as dangerous as the problems in the boardroom and on the pitch. but fans can't be blamed for sticking with wenger because none of us have seen anything like him during our time supporting arsenal and i don't mean in the sense of lauding him for success or any failures. the huge amount of affection toward wenger is not to be underestimated and for all of us it is a big step into the unknown. some are more eager for it and others more fearful but we all want the same thing at the end of the day and that's the only thing that matters especially when its the bad times like this.

I think what zimm & png are perhaps getting at, is the summary dismissal and beatdown of what was considered such contrarian views and opinions back then. A moment of silence for Rkane --- one of those that fell for the cause. :rose:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think what zimm & png are perhaps getting at, is the summary dismissal and beatdown of what was considered such contrarian views and opinions back then. A moment of silence for Rkane --- one of those that fell for the cause. :rose:

Assuming they were right that Wenger should have gone years ago, but that's a different debate.

[Ollie the Optimist]

That's a cop out, you'd always find some excuse to blame the player rather than the club....fact is we've been doing this for years, it our own fault, we chose to sell all those players.

The club do it over and over again and somehow it's always the players fault.

just like you will always find some excuse to blame wenger rather then board or the player :coffee:

[Özim]

Neither would any manager coming in.
There's different degrees, Wenger makes it pretty clear he doesn't give a toss, most managers don't..... he's at the higher end of I don't give a sh*t if I don't please the fans.

[gooners]

Assuming they were right that Wenger should have gone years ago, but that's a different debate.

7,6,5,4,3,2,1 years ago? ;)

[Özim]

just like you will always find some excuse to blame wenger rather then board or the player :coffee:
Wrong.

I blame the board, I've always said I wanted them out....Wenger is part and parcel of that, I've come to realise that when every player says the same thing it can't be wrong all the time....this club is engulfed in greed and football comes a distant 2nd, it's all about making money at the fans expense whilst selling off it's best players to make even more and fool the fans into thinking money is being spent by signing a couple players with the money acquired from players sales.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

There's different degrees, Wenger makes it pretty clear he doesn't give a toss, most managers don't.. some he's at the higher end of I don't give a sh*t if I don't please the fans.

No manager gives a shit about the fans. Don't be deluded to think they do. im not Excusing Wenger in that.

Managers, players have no connection to fans since the game has changed its just the way it is.

I did not want RVP to go, no one who supports the club would. If he did not want to be at the club and feels in his best intrest he has to leave then fine he should go.

[Power n Glory]

I think what zimm & png are perhaps getting at, is the summary dismissal and beatdown of what was considered such contrarian views and opinions back then. A moment of silence for Rkane --- one of those that fell for the cause. :rose:

Thank you!

[Niall_Quinn]

7,6,5,4,3,2,1 years ago? ;)

Not that simple though, is it? Don't forget the board was having backstabbing competitions upstairs. Who's to say the whole place wouldn't have fallen apart if we'd introduced further instability by changing the manager. We could be Liverpool by now with a new manager every year and nothing to show for it. It's all just speculation whichever side of the fence you are on.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Not that simple though, is it? Don't forget the board was having backstabbing competitions upstairs. Who's to say the whole place wouldn't have fallen apart if we'd introduced further instability by changing the manager. We could be Liverpool by now with a new manager every year and nothing to show for it. It's all just speculation whichever side of the fence you are on.

:gp:

Yep the board were all fighting over who should sale who's shares to him. All both Stan and the Russian cared about who could buy the most shares. None of them were bothered about the club.

[Özim]

No manager gives a shit about the fans. Don't be deluded to think they do. im not Excusing Wenger in that.

Managers, players have no connection to fans since the game has changed its just the way it is.

I did not want RVP to go, no one who supports the club would. If he did not want to be at the club and feels in his best intrest he has to leave then fine he should go.
I'd say Wenger is more dismissive than most, all that matters is what he thinks, he doesn't even consider anyone else's opinions however logical even when his team though his team has the same failings every season.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I'd say Wenger is more dismissive than most, all that matters is what he thinks, he doesn't even consider anyone else's opinions however logical even when his team though his team has the same failings every season.

No manager is the same in how they do things. None go home thinking about the fans that turned up that day. They even laugh and joke with the opposing manager they just played against. Sit down and share a glass of whine. They don't think of fans.

Never said Wenger is not what you said he is.

[gooners]

Not that simple though, is it? Don't forget the board was having backstabbing competitions upstairs. Who's to say the whole place wouldn't have fallen apart if we'd introduced further instability by changing the manager. We could be Liverpool by now with a new manager every year and nothing to show for it. It's all just speculation whichever side of the fence you are on.


it is the summary dismissal and beatdown of what was considered such contrarian views and opinions back then.

Shortly stated, the shit we see on the pitch and during transfer windows did not happen overnight; it has been happening over and over again for years. THERE WAS A CASE TO BE MADE --- and it was made :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

Shortly stated, the shit we see on the pitch and during transfer windows did not happen overnight; it has been happening over and over again for years. THERE WAS A CASE TO BE MADE --- and it was made :good:

What happened in the transfer windows is hardly cut and dried. And of course the knock-on effect of that policy killed us on the pitch in addition to the strange decisions made by Wenger. The whole does he or doesn't he have money debate has raged for years. We spent years saying, just a couple more players and we are there. And in several cases it was true. Just a little bit more investment could have made a huge difference. If this was a case of Wenger penny pinching then sure, he did the club a disservice. But as things stand none of us know the real story.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What happened in the transfer windows is hardly cut and dried. And of course the knock-on effect of that policy killed us on the pitch in addition to the strange decisions made by Wenger. The whole does he or doesn't he have money debate has raged for years. We spent years saying, just a couple more players and we are there. And in several cases it was true. Just a little bit more investment could have made a huge difference. If this was a case of Wenger penny pinching then sure, he did the club a disservice. But as things stand none of us know the real story.

Wenger's book shall tell all.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger's book shall tell all.

With him I doubt it. I suspect his book could already be culled from the various interviews he's given over the years.

[gooners]

What happened in the transfer windows is hardly cut and dried. And of course the knock-on effect of that policy killed us on the pitch in addition to the strange decisions made by Wenger. The whole does he or doesn't he have money debate has raged for years. We spent years saying, just a couple more players and we are there. And in several cases it was true. Just a little bit more investment could have made a huge difference. If this was a case of Wenger penny pinching then sure, he did the club a disservice. But as things stand none of us know the real story.

Yes we do --- wenger has said it himself; the board member who passed away also said it --- that is why they love wenger.

Wenger: 'i know what I am doing, and i will do it my way' RE: project yoof


In fact, this conversation has also been had before --- it is so 5yrs ago.

By the way, never did anyone in the past or present say he had chelsea style billions to spend and should have. But he had money --- he almost bought alonso for 20 something mil and baulked at an extra couple mil.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes we do --- wenger has said it himself; the board member who passed away also said it --- that is why they love wenger.

Wenger: 'i know what I am doing, and i will do it my way' RE: project yoof


In fact, this conversation has also been had before --- it is so 5yrs ago.

Not sure if we are having a discussion or if I have inadvertently stumbled into some gripe you have with somebody else. But what of project youth? It could have been instigated as a desire for Wenger to prove everyone in football wrong. It could have been instigated as an alternative to purchasing established quality. It could have served both purposes or maybe neither. We speculate. We don't know.

[Kano]

Wenger's book shall tell all.
it would be great if that was the case but he's such a master politician that any truth will get lost amongst all his double speak. i'll still buy it though.

[gooners]

What is there to speculate about?

Wenger has had money to spend; not chelsea billions but he always has, way before even city came into the equation too. He has said this himself. Rick edelman quoted wenger as saying 'i'll give it back, i dont want to bankrupt your club' when he asked wenger what he would do if he was given a hypothetical 100mil to spend!

Wenger has clearly stated the youth project was his project. See the quote in the above post.

There is nothing to speculate about. No one in wengers position will last that long if they are not calling major shots.

[Kano]

I meant more about his general time there and stories we've never even heard.

[Niall_Quinn]

What is there to speculate about?

Wenger has had money to spend; not chelsea billions but he always has, way before even city came into the equation too. He has said this himself. Rick edelman quoted wenger as saying 'i'll give it back, i dont want to bankrupt your club' when he asked wenger what he would do if he was given a hypothetical 100mil to spend!

Wenger has clearly stated the youth project was his project. See the quote in the above post.

There is nothing to speculate about. No one in wengers position will last that long if they are not calling major shots.

"Hypothetical" money. What did you want him to do, start naming names? You can't seriously base any analysis on such a flimsy quote? And yes, the youth project was his. But not in isolation from the rest of the club. That's not how decisions are made in a large business. How many times did we hear the rumours of in-fighting in the boardroom? How could this have been if multiple individuals weren't involved in setting the direction of the club? I didn't say the youth policy wasn't his. I said we don't know for sure what the thinking behind or purpose of that policy was. And we don't, which is why there is something to speculate about. Most things in fact, until the day we get inside the boardroom.

[gooners]

I meant more about his general time there and stories we've never even heard.

:lol: was in reply to nq's post

[Boss]

He continues his top four finishes, he stays.

/thread

[Niall_Quinn]

He continues his top four finishes, he stays.

/thread

He finishes 5th he stays too. They have all said as much. Unless the fans make it too hot for them I suppose, or Wenger decides enough is enough. But I think he identified that point as 15th place.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He continues his top four finishes, he stays.

/thread

:haha:

Boss :bow:

[gooners]

"Hypothetical" money. What did you want him to do, start naming names? You can't seriously base any analysis on such a flimsy quote? And yes, the youth project was his. But not in isolation from the rest of the club. That's not how decisions are made in a large business. How many times did we hear the rumours of in-fighting in the boardroom? How could this have been if multiple individuals weren't involved in setting the direction of the club? I didn't say the youth policy wasn't his. I said we don't know for sure what the thinking behind or purpose of that policy was. And we don't, which is why there is something to speculate about. Most things in fact, until the day we get inside the boardroom.

Yes, i can.

It is wenger's modus operandus. And those of us that avidly observed the trend way back when predicted the current malaise that surrounds the club. It is why this tete-a-tete with you in this thread started --- that there was this case to be made EVEN back then that Wenger had to go, and it was made.

That is the point of this discussion.

[gooners]

He continues his top four finishes, he stays.

/thread

Of course. That is the sad part.

As Zimm said, 3 wins on the trot and we'll have PHW and half the posters in the thread calling the other half idiots!

[Boss]

If he makes top four again he deserves to stay.

[gooners]

If he makes top four again he deserves to stay.

if i shoot myself in the head repeatedly and i dont die, i deserve to live ;)

[hobson's choice]

I think the thing we are all learning about Wenger now, is that maybe he truly didn't make any player great, but the players made him look great.

We are now learning that Wenger like most managers/coaches, is as good as the talent he has. What Wenger was and still is, is a great talent evaluator. But as a tactician, and what not, he's lacking in that department.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

I think the thing we are all learning about Wenger now, is that maybe he truly didn't make any player great, but the players made him look great.

We are now learning that Wenger like most managers/coaches, is as good as the talent he has. What Wenger was and still is, is a great talent evaluator. But as a tactician, and what not, he's lacking in that department.

Some of his signings a few minutes ago, have really thrown this particular sentiment into sharp focus.

[gooners]

Some of his signings a few minutes ago, have really thrown this particular sentiment into sharp focus.

denilson? --- what a fraud.

i cant believe wenger called him our great passer.

but then again, he called eboue a passmeister! :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, i can.

It is wenger's modus operandus. And those of us that avidly observed the trend way back when predicted the current malaise that surrounds the club. It is why this tete-a-tete with you in this thread started --- that there was this case to be made EVEN back then that Wenger had to go, and it was made.

That is the point of this discussion.

Is it? Surely your underlying point is the fact you are pissed because people jumped all over you back then for suggesting he should go? Did I answer that in this thread or another of the ongoing threads that are focused on the same issue? Can't recall. But in brief I asked what does it matter who said what when? It was never going to be the case everyone would reach agreement simultaneously. It seems to me that everyone is now on the same page. If we were all fighting back then then great, I love a good fight. Now we are not fighting, we agree. So what's the issue?

[selassie]

lets face the fact that we wont get a new manager till next summer at the earliest. is there a way you would like wenger to stay, or rather feel he deserves to stay based on what he does from now to end of season.

if he won the COC and thats it, should he stay or go?

if he won the cup double would that be good enough?

if he won the champions league?

if we put up a dam good fight from now to the end and lose in finals to the better team?

or is this it, he can go no further with us no matter what he does? these are scenarios, so lets not argue about wehter they can happen etc, just interested to see whether something would make you consider him staying.

Ollie, it's over, Wenger is finished.

Anyway, I wanted him gone 2 seasons ago, he's damaging his reputation beyond belief and it's sad to see a guy who use to win things and has been a great servant to the club doing this.

He's not proving anybody wrong, he's just digging himself deeper into a hole.

[LDG]

Ollie, it's over, Wenger is finished.

Anyway, I wanted him gone 2 seasons ago, he's damaging his reputation beyond belief and it's sad to see a guy who use to win things and has been a great servant to the club doing this.

He's not proving anybody wrong, he's just digging himself deeper into a hole.

Agreed.

Though. There is still this part of me that wants him to go and win something. Stick it up everyone who doubted him (including me now), and give it one big last ultimate WUMger.

I don't care what anyone says (and people are always entitled to think what they want of others), I will always treasure watching his teams from 96 to 2006 espcially.

What's wierd, is that I'm falling out of love with football, just as much as Arsene is falling out of favour with me. The two aren't directly linked....but they are by a few degrees of separation.

[Letters]

If he makes top four again he deserves to stay.
I dunno. I actually think he will do that and I accept we don't have the resources of the top 3 and that makes it hard to compete but we should be able to do better than the teams we seem to now be competing with.
Right now it's the top 3 and 'the rest'. We are the rest, possibly the best of the rest but way below the top 3.
IMO with our resources we should be part of a top 4. Bottom of the top 4, maybe, but the gap should be between us and 'the rest', not between the top 3 and us.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Agreed.

Though. There is still this part of me that wants him to go and win something. Stick it up everyone who doubted him (including me now), and give it one big last ultimate WUMger.

I don't care what anyone says (and people are always entitled to think what they want of others), I will always treasure watching his teams from 96 to 2006 espcially.

What's wierd, is that I'm falling out of love with football, just as much as Arsene is falling out of favour with me. The two aren't directly linked....but they are by a few degrees of separation.

This. Like i said he is still a good manager, but I just don't think he and this club are good for each other anymore.

And i think as much as we needs a new challenge.


What's wierd, is that I'm falling out of love with football,

Your not the only one, football is not the game it once was.

[Power n Glory]

This. Like i said he is still a good manager and its dumb for anyone to question that, because he has not won a thing in 7 years. But I just don't think he and this club are good for each other anymore.

And i think as much as we needs a new challenge.



Your not the only one, football is not the game it once was.

:doh:

[IBK]

@ the OP. I'm afraid not.

Some thoughts...I feel strongly that the difference between formerly AKB Gooners and those who have been calling for Wenger's head for some time does not represent any blindness or difference in insight between the 2. Generally speaking, up until relatively recently it has been a debate between those who feel that we should have won silverware/shown more ambition as a club and those who have been more prepared to take into account the disparity in spending power between us an the new rich clubs and the stadium project/rebuilding/development that the club was going through.

Both views were equally justifiable - and it is no surprise that many fans felt that Wenger had earnt the right to be given time, not just because of what he has given the club in terms of the success years and the stadium - but because he had consistently delivered CL football in some sense against the odds. This is not a 'trophy' in itself - but is certainly a reason to stand by a manager.

But it now feels as though something fundamental has changed. What we are seeing now does not feel like a loss of form, a slump like we have seen so many times over the years. It feels as though something rotten in Wenger's methods and approach to the game is being exposed. Its not a question of silverware. Its a question of seeing your team with a purpose; of seeing the basics of character and application. We are not seeing this - and fans are rightly questioning whether a team so lacking in these basic attributes can ever be successful.

Wenger's training methods; his misguided obsession with wage parity; his lax attitude towards discipline on the pitch (presumably at the training ground); his tactical blind spots and his refusal to set his teams up to play the opposition appear to have resulted now in a team pretty much in freefall (an exaggeration perhaps - but not interms of our relationship with the top 3 teams in the league). With the stellar talent now sold off, there is little to paper over the cracks - yet the talent we still have is woefully underperforming. This is down to the manager. Not the board. Not the opposition. And it is naive to think that a proud and stubborn man who has done it his way for 17 years will change. He won't. All leaders have their time, and Wenger's is clearly up.

But - and here's the frightening thing. The club structure that he has been so loyal in defending is a shambles. An American majority shareholder in open dispute with an Uzbek billionaire. A chief executive who appears unfit for purpose. Noone seemingly able to challenge or influence the manager. Do we really think that this is an organisation able to demonstrate the clarity of purpose and good judgment to appoint a more illustrious successor to Wenger? I am very afraid of what is going to happen in the power vaccuum of Wenger leaving. I can see us being a Liverpool or an Aston Villa. I'm afraid that the bad times may only just be beginning.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:doh:

Well he is, never said he was worldclass etc. He is still a good manager, just cause you don't believe it don't meant its no true.

[selassie]

Agreed.

Though. There is still this part of me that wants him to go and win something. Stick it up everyone who doubted him (including me now), and give it one big last ultimate WUMger.

I don't care what anyone says (and people are always entitled to think what they want of others), I will always treasure watching his teams from 96 to 2006 espcially.

What's wierd, is that I'm falling out of love with football, just as much as Arsene is falling out of favour with me. The two aren't directly linked....but they are by a few degrees of separation.

Me too LDG. I would love him to win something for us.

Wenger use to build brilliant teams, there is no question about. He also had us playing superb football up until a few seasons ago IMHO, not now...we've been struggling for a while if i'm honest.

I really do think he's lost his way now, time for a change.

[Power n Glory]

Well he is, never said he was worldclass etc. He is still a good manager, just cause you don't believe it don't meant its no true.

Again....:doh:

The clue was there in bold.

[Xhaka Can’t]

IBK, that is an excellent post.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Olivier's xmas twist]

@ the OP. I'm afraid not.

Some thoughts...I feel strongly that the difference between formerly AKB Gooners and those who have been calling for Wenger's head for some time does not represent any blindness or difference in insight between the 2. Generally speaking, up until relatively recently it has been a debate between those who feel that we should have won silverware/shown more ambition as a club and those who have been more prepared to take into account the disparity in spending power between us an the new rich clubs and the stadium project/rebuilding/development that the club was going through.

Both views were equally justifiable - and it is no surprise that many fans felt that Wenger had earnt the right to be given time, not just because of what he has given the club in terms of the success years and the stadium - but because he had consistently delivered CL football in some sense against the odds. This is not a 'trophy' in itself - but is certainly a reason to stand by a manager.

But it now feels as though something fundamental has changed. What we are seeing now does not feel like a loss of form, a slump like we have seen so many times over the years. It feels as though something rotten in Wenger's methods and approach to the game is being exposed. Its not a question of silverware. Its a question of seeing your team with a purpose; of seeing the basics of character and application. We are not seeing this - and fans are rightly questioning whether a team so lacking in these basic attributes can ever be successful.

Wenger's training methods; his misguided obsession with wage parity; his lax attitude towards discipline on the pitch (presumably at the training ground); his tactical blind spots and his refusal to set his teams up to play the opposition appear to have resulted now in a team pretty much in freefall (an exaggeration perhaps - but not interms of our relationship with the top 3 teams in the league). With the stellar talent now sold off, there is little to paper over the cracks - yet the talent we still have is woefully underperforming. This is down to the manager. Not the board. Not the opposition. And it is naive to think that a proud and stubborn man who has done it his way for 17 years will change. He won't. All leaders have their time, and Wenger's is clearly up.

But - and here's the frightening thing. The club structure that he has been so loyal in defending is a shambles. An American majority shareholder in open dispute with an Uzbek billionaire. A chief executive who appears unfit for purpose. Noone seemingly able to challenge or influence the manager. Do we really think that this is an organisation able to demonstrate the clarity of purpose and good judgment to appoint a more illustrious successor to Wenger? I am very afraid of what is going to happen in the power vaccuum of Wenger leaving. I can see us being a Liverpool or an Aston Villa. I'm afraid that the bad times may only just be beginning.

Spot on.

[Kano]

Well he is, never said he was worldclass etc. He is still a good manager, just cause you don't believe it don't meant its no true.
well of course you are right, you still have to be a good manager to be anywhere in this league.

it's just that 'good' isn't 'good enough' for arsenal football club.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Again....:doh:

The clue was there in bold.

Dpenends if you think Trophies are the be all and end all.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

well of course you are right, you still have to be a good manager to be anywhere in this league.

it's just that 'good' isn't 'good enough' for arsenal football club.


Which was my point.

He is not the bad manager that everyone makes him out to be. Or some guy the likes of Coyle can do better then etc.

[Niall_Quinn]

The RvC sale. Final straw. Everyone out!

[Power n Glory]

Dpenends if you think Trophies are the be all and end all.

As pointed out, he hasn't won anything in 7 years yet it is dumb for people to question whether or not he's still up to scratch? Really?

[IBK]

As pointed out, he hasn't won anything in 7 years yet it is dumb for people to question whether or not he's still up to scratch? Really?

In itself - probably. CL football throughout is IMO and those of others at least equivalent to a CC or FA Cup. Not in terms of that glowing feeling, but in terms of footballing achievement. It is harder to finish top 4 year in year out than it is to win the odd cup competition.

So yes - I'd say that in our circumstances basing the question solely on silverware - particularly when we have had 3 very near misses in the period - is wide of the mark. There's a lot more than mere lack of silverware to base the question on now, though!

[LDG]

@ the OP. I'm afraid not.

Some thoughts...I feel strongly that the difference between formerly AKB Gooners and those who have been calling for Wenger's head for some time does not represent any blindness or difference in insight between the 2. Generally speaking, up until relatively recently it has been a debate between those who feel that we should have won silverware/shown more ambition as a club and those who have been more prepared to take into account the disparity in spending power between us an the new rich clubs and the stadium project/rebuilding/development that the club was going through.

Both views were equally justifiable - and it is no surprise that many fans felt that Wenger had earnt the right to be given time, not just because of what he has given the club in terms of the success years and the stadium - but because he had consistently delivered CL football in some sense against the odds. This is not a 'trophy' in itself - but is certainly a reason to stand by a manager.

But it now feels as though something fundamental has changed. What we are seeing now does not feel like a loss of form, a slump like we have seen so many times over the years. It feels as though something rotten in Wenger's methods and approach to the game is being exposed. Its not a question of silverware. Its a question of seeing your team with a purpose; of seeing the basics of character and application. We are not seeing this - and fans are rightly questioning whether a team so lacking in these basic attributes can ever be successful.

Wenger's training methods; his misguided obsession with wage parity; his lax attitude towards discipline on the pitch (presumably at the training ground); his tactical blind spots and his refusal to set his teams up to play the opposition appear to have resulted now in a team pretty much in freefall (an exaggeration perhaps - but not interms of our relationship with the top 3 teams in the league). With the stellar talent now sold off, there is little to paper over the cracks - yet the talent we still have is woefully underperforming. This is down to the manager. Not the board. Not the opposition. And it is naive to think that a proud and stubborn man who has done it his way for 17 years will change. He won't. All leaders have their time, and Wenger's is clearly up.

But - and here's the frightening thing. The club structure that he has been so loyal in defending is a shambles. An American majority shareholder in open dispute with an Uzbek billionaire. A chief executive who appears unfit for purpose. Noone seemingly able to challenge or influence the manager. Do we really think that this is an organisation able to demonstrate the clarity of purpose and good judgment to appoint a more illustrious successor to Wenger? I am very afraid of what is going to happen in the power vaccuum of Wenger leaving. I can see us being a Liverpool or an Aston Villa. I'm afraid that the bad times may only just be beginning.

Spot on mate.

End of debate really.

[LDG]

In itself - probably. CL football throughout is IMO and those of others at least equivalent to a CC or FA Cup. Not in terms of that glowing feeling, but in terms of footballing achievement. It is harder to finish top 4 year in year out than it is to win the odd cup competition.

So yes - I'd say that in our circumstances basing the question solely on silverware - particularly when we have had 3 very near misses in the period - is wide of the mark. There's a lot more than mere lack of silverware to base the question on now, though!

Quite.

Didn't Pompey win a trophy not too long ago?? Were they better than us?

[Kano]

Quite.

Didn't Pompey win a trophy not too long ago?? Were they better than us?

harry redknapp is.

[LDG]

harry redknapp is.

:ninja:

[Power n Glory]

In itself - probably. CL football throughout is IMO and those of others at least equivalent to a CC or FA Cup. Not in terms of that glowing feeling, but in terms of footballing achievement. It is harder to finish top 4 year in year out than it is to win the odd cup competition.

So yes - I'd say that in our circumstances basing the question solely on silverware - particularly when we have had 3 very near misses in the period - is wide of the mark. There's a lot more than mere lack of silverware to base the question on now, though!

You're actively questioning Wenger's managerial skills now! You have also posed the question of whether or not Wenger has gone stale. Are you dumb for questioning Wenger?

[Kano]

i think you need a break. this all seems to be getting to you.

[Power n Glory]

i think you need a break. this all seems to be getting to you.

Don't start wumming if you have nothing to add.

[LDG]

You're actively questioning Wenger's managerial skills now! You have also posed the question of whether or not Wenger has gone stale. Are you dumb for questioning Wenger?

Mate, read his last sentence....

[Kano]

Don't start wumming if you have nothing to add.
you're determined to show everyone how far ahead you were with your thoughts. so you smug along and i'll wum.

[Power n Glory]

Mate, read his last sentence....

Noted and I'm aware of the last sentence but Sub doesn't need your help when it comes to answering replies. I'd prefer for him to respond.

[LDG]

:lol:

[Power n Glory]

you're determined to show everyone how far ahead you were with your thoughts. so you smug along and i'll wum.

Terry, it's obvious you have a personal problem. Take it somewhere else and stop being bitter.

[Kano]

the irony is staggering.

but yes, i'll jog on for now.

[Power n Glory]

the irony is staggering.

but yes, i'll jog on for now.

It is. We probably agree on quite a few issues with the club but yet you still feel the need to be hostile because you have a problem with the way i post and it probably stems back to disagreement in the past. Get over it.

[IBK]

You're actively questioning Wenger's managerial skills now! You have also posed the question of whether or not Wenger has gone stale. Are you dumb for questioning Wenger?

No I'm not dumb for questioning Wenger, because there's a lot more to base the question on than mere lack of silverware - and I've gone into quite a lot of detail as to why.

[Kano]

It is. We probably agree on quite a few issues with the club but yet you still feel the need to be hostile because you have a problem with the way i post and it probably stems back to disagreement in the past. Get over it.
no, we talked about it last night. you are completely smug and happy to rub it in any fans face that you have been ahead of some people in questioning the club. what you get from it i don't know. everyone is unhappy about it now, so do you get a prize for saying it first?

[Power n Glory]

No I'm not dumb for questioning Wenger, because there's a lot more to base the question on than mere lack of silverware - and I've gone into quite a lot of detail as to why.

Exactly and the past 7 years without winning anything just represents the decline. It goes way beyond silverware and anyone that tries to simplify it down to the fact is missing the point. We've all been on here for years discussing the decline and when we say 7/8 years it just represents the point at which we started to fall apart.

[Power n Glory]

no, we talked about it last night. you are completely smug and happy to rub it in any fans face that you have been ahead of some people in questioning the club. what you get from it i don't know. everyone is unhappy about it now, so do you get a prize for saying it first?

If I really wanted to go all out, I'd name names and I won't apologies for airing it out because there have been some smug posters on here that have been kicking guys like Zimm down for years on end. Totally taking the piss. I should rub it back in peoples faces and few others have the right to do so as well. Don't preach to me about unity now.

Call it smug if you like, but as said, I am pissed off with all the talk and the constant loops and I'm calling it out. This is deja vu. These debates on new management, board and Wenger, players and Wenger...they have been done to death. Last year we had in-depth discussions about this. The lack of ambition, the selling off of key players and the underhand tactics employed by the manager and board. But what really grinds my gears is that after all such talk last year, a lot of fans fell into the same pattern of thinking and backed Wenger and the Board to sell more of our key players. Justified it. How does that old quote go...'fool me once, shame on you....' Call it smug if you like, you don't know me from Adam, but this is a wake up call.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If I really wanted to go all out, I'd name names and I won't apologies for airing it out because there have been some smug posters on here that have been kicking guys like Zimm down for years on end. Totally taking the piss. I should rub it back in peoples faces and few others have the right to do so as well. Don't preach to me about unity now.

Call it smug if you like, but as said, I am pissed off with all the talk and the constant loops and I'm calling it out. This is deja vu. These debates on new management, board and Wenger, players and Wenger...they have been done to death. Last year we had in-depth discussions about this. The lack of ambition, the selling off of key players and the underhand tactics employed by the manager and board. But what really grinds my gears is that after all such talk last year, a lot of fans fell into the same pattern of thinking and backed Wenger and the Board to sell more of our key players. Justified it. How does that old quote go...'fool me once, shame on you....' Call it smug if you like, you don't know me from Adam, but this is a wake up call.

Well it sure is nice to see someone getting great joy out of our predicament.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Kano]

If I really wanted to go all out, I'd name names and I won't apologies for airing it out because there have been some smug posters on here that have been kicking guys like Zimm down for years on end. Totally taking the piss. I should rub it back in peoples faces and few others have the right to do so as well. Don't preach to me about unity now.

Call it smug if you like, but as said, I am pissed off with all the talk and the constant loops and I'm calling it out. This is deja vu. These debates on new management, board and Wenger, players and Wenger...they have been done to death. Last year we had in-depth discussions about this. The lack of ambition, the selling off of key players and the underhand tactics employed by the manager and board. But what really grinds my gears is that after all such talk last year, a lot of fans fell into the same pattern of thinking and backed Wenger and the Board to sell more of our key players. Justified it. How does that old quote go...'fool me once, shame on you....' Call it smug if you like, you don't know me from Adam, but this is a wake up call.
what do you get from 'calling it out'? its the internet after all. no one can be called to account. it all seems pretty ludicrous. but if it makes you happy, it makes you happy.

[LDG]

Fuck! I thought this was real life!!

[Power n Glory]

Well it sure is nice to see someone getting great joy out of our predicament.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

Typical response...the lesser fan type snipe and bound to come from those slightly more embarrassed than others.

It's not enjoyment just disappointment with a few good posters that are usually on the ball.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

If I really wanted to go all out, I'd name names and I won't apologies for airing it out because there have been some smug posters on here that have been kicking guys like Zimm down for years on end. Totally taking the piss. I should rub it back in peoples faces and few others have the right to do so as well. Don't preach to me about unity now.

Call it smug if you like, but as said, I am pissed off with all the talk and the constant loops and I'm calling it out. This is deja vu. These debates on new management, board and Wenger, players and Wenger...they have been done to death. Last year we had in-depth discussions about this. The lack of ambition, the selling off of key players and the underhand tactics employed by the manager and board. But what really grinds my gears is that after all such talk last year, a lot of fans fell into the same pattern of thinking and backed Wenger and the Board to sell more of our key players. Justified it. How does that old quote go...'fool me once, shame on you....' Call it smug if you like, you don't know me from Adam, but this is a wake up call.

You say your upset, yet you keep on debating everytime this threads are started. Would it not be better for you not to even enter these threads if you feel its same old same old.?

[LDG]

PnG, forget all the bollocks about who was right, who was wrong, when, and why.

It is very difficult, sometimes in the heat of a result, to tell who is on the wind-up and who isn't. Especially when certain posters will only come on to post when we lose. If we get a good result, the plaudits, or even shared happiness in 3 points, is often distinctly lacking from some posters, who are more than happy to laugh (YES, even laugh) and rub it in when we lose.

That is why some people get called out on it.

Nothing to do with the AKB brigade whatsoever.

All to do with supporting your club first and foremost, come what may.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

As pointed out, he hasn't won anything in 7 years yet it is dumb for people to question whether or not he's still up to scratch? Really?

I've changed my post. My point was inspite of him not winning anything, i don't think it makes him a bad manager. Though like i said it depends if you think Trophies are the be all and end all.
If thats the case the David Moyes must be really poor. Has not won anything with Everton.

And don't tell me he has not had the resources too. With the teams he has won, could have won the COC or FA cups.

[Power n Glory]

You say your upset, yet you keep on debating everytime this threads are started. Would it not be better for you not to even enter these threads if you feel its same old same old.?

It's an attempt to switch things up because we can all clearly see we're not moving in the right direction. And no, I won't stop posting.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Typical response...the lesser fan type snipe and bound to come from those slightly more embarrassed than others.

It's not enjoyment just disappointment with a few good posters that are usually on the ball.

No, I've made my substantive response earlier in this and the Redknapp thread. And had a pretty decent discussion with Zim about it as well.

Your posting and the manner of it indicate you are getting a kick out of this.

And for the record, I have never called into question your support of Arsenal.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Power n Glory]

No, I've made my substantive response earlier in this and the Redknapp thread. And had a pretty decent discussion with Zim about it as well.

Your posting and the manner of it indicate you are getting a kick out of this.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

You've read my posts long enough to know I don't do the whole wumming thing. My username and style hasn't changed since the original GW and there has never been an occasion where I've been happy to see us lose or make such blunders. The constant fuck ups pisses me off. From the board room, to the field, management and now it's the same for us fans. It's a constant loop and as predictable as Wenger's team selection has become, it's the same for us fans. I'm just calling it out like I usually would.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You've read my posts long enough to know I don't do the whole wumming thing. My username and style hasn't changed since the original GW and there has never been an occasion where I've been happy to see us lose or make such blunders. The constant fuck ups pisses me off. From the board room, to the field, management and now it's the same for us fans. It's a constant loop and as predictable as Wenger's team selection has become, it's the same for us fans. I'm just calling it out like I usually would.

You may have missed the late edit, where I state that I've never called into question your support oft Arsenal. It probably means fuck all, but I wanted to say that.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[Power n Glory]

That's fair play, GB. Thanks.

[IBK]

For me, as usual the real issues about the club and Wenger probably lie somewhere in the middle of the past 7 years. It shouldn't be about who is right and who is wrong, because I am certain that Zimm and PNG care as passionately about our club as the rest of us and take no pleasure from Wenger failing - its about whether a view is justified at a certain time.

I think the difference between then and now is that the majority of Gooners accepted that up until say 2009, the club had to be cautious while the stadium project was completed and Highbury Square sold. Most people accepted that a period of rebuilding was required, and that project youth had been decided upon, rightly or wrongly, as an alternative to the petro billionaires. It came fairly close to working, too. So in a sense the jury was rightly out - even though some Gooners have always felt that we should not have been so spending averse - even then.

For me, the next real crux point came when Fabregas and Narsi were sold - not just because the team since 2006 had been built around Fabregas - but because it showed that even in Fabregas' case growing up with the club and loyalty to Wenger were not sufficient to persuade him to stay. It became clear that our best players no longer believed in the Wenger project. With Nasri - selling him to a direct rival team suggested that the club had thrown in the towel.

So more justification in questioning Wenger, but I don't think those that didn't can be judged too harshly for being patient even then and seeing whether the manager could re-build a team based on proven track records rather than youthfrul punts. Like I say it was not unreasonable to point out that AW had consistently delivered CL football - and that this was more difficult than delivering the odd cup win.

The shambles that we are now in justifies those who were calling for regime change long ago - and the reason why even those who wondered whether getting rid of Wenger was best for the club are now in the same camp is that the sales of Song and RVP with no adequate replacements signed were near-suicidal, and teh manager has shown that project youth or no project youth - the failings that affected his earlier teams are not just still present - they have worsened! There are no longer any excuses left for the manager - but that does not mean that those who were prepared to give the manager the benefit of the doubt were unjustified in doing so at the time.

[Power n Glory]

I don't even feel there is need to even split hairs about who said what and which camp you reside in, even if there is such a thing. We've arrived at this point now and we need to keep our eyes open. That's what I'm getting at. As said, it's a shame that we're having the same sort debates about player loyalty and conduct since the whole Henry saga. It's disappointing to see us head down the same tunnel each year after we hit this point. That's why I say the focus needs to be directed elsewhere. The club has been rotting from the inside for years now and there is no point in directing that focus at the pieces that drop off. RVP, Song, Nasri, Cesc, Walcott....they can all see what's going on with the club and want out.

Been thinking about this for a while now but how are things going to change with the club when the manager is accountable to nobody? We all thought things would change once we've paid more of the debt down. No change years since. We all thought maybe Gazidis would help and challenge Wenger, put more pressure on him to buy and challenge for silverware like Dein did. No change. We were all optimistic when Stan took control of the club and thought he'd apply more pressure. No change. The players that have come and gone have tried to talk to Wenger and get him to be more ambitious. We have seen it the RVP talks, Cesc and it even goes as far back to Henry. Our players publicly putting pressure on our manager to sign new talent. Still no change.

The only thing left is for the fans to make some noise about the way we're being run. I put a lot of the blame on Wenger's shoulder because despite us repeating the same nonsense, we've seen new players come in, a new Chief Director has stepped in so Wenger isn't doing everything, a new owner, what more needs to change? There are no excuses left for the manager. If the Board depend on Wenger's vision and philosophy so much, I can only hope they'd be willing to listen to manager with superior knowledge and management skills over Wenger. We need a change of management. How that is to come about and when....no idea. But we're getting to the point where fan discontent will reach a boiling point. If the Spurs game goes belly up then it may be the final straw before everyone hits the roof and I can only see things getting ugly.

Like so many players that have boiled over in frustration and publicly voiced their concerns about the club, I feel we're going in that same direction as fans. It's not something I look forwards to because we're going to look so bad in the press if it gets to that point but it looks like it's inevitable. The only way Wenger is going is if he's hounded out.

[Letters]

@ the OP. I'm afraid not.

Some thoughts...I feel strongly that the difference between formerly AKB Gooners and those who have been calling for Wenger's head for some time does not represent any blindness or difference in insight between the 2. Generally speaking, up until relatively recently it has been a debate between those who feel that we should have won silverware/shown more ambition as a club and those who have been more prepared to take into account the disparity in spending power between us an the new rich clubs and the stadium project/rebuilding/development that the club was going through.

Both views were equally justifiable - and it is no surprise that many fans felt that Wenger had earnt the right to be given time, not just because of what he has given the club in terms of the success years and the stadium - but because he had consistently delivered CL football in some sense against the odds. This is not a 'trophy' in itself - but is certainly a reason to stand by a manager.

But it now feels as though something fundamental has changed. What we are seeing now does not feel like a loss of form, a slump like we have seen so many times over the years. It feels as though something rotten in Wenger's methods and approach to the game is being exposed. Its not a question of silverware. Its a question of seeing your team with a purpose; of seeing the basics of character and application. We are not seeing this - and fans are rightly questioning whether a team so lacking in these basic attributes can ever be successful.

Wenger's training methods; his misguided obsession with wage parity; his lax attitude towards discipline on the pitch (presumably at the training ground); his tactical blind spots and his refusal to set his teams up to play the opposition appear to have resulted now in a team pretty much in freefall (an exaggeration perhaps - but not interms of our relationship with the top 3 teams in the league). With the stellar talent now sold off, there is little to paper over the cracks - yet the talent we still have is woefully underperforming. This is down to the manager. Not the board. Not the opposition. And it is naive to think that a proud and stubborn man who has done it his way for 17 years will change. He won't. All leaders have their time, and Wenger's is clearly up.

But - and here's the frightening thing. The club structure that he has been so loyal in defending is a shambles. An American majority shareholder in open dispute with an Uzbek billionaire. A chief executive who appears unfit for purpose. Noone seemingly able to challenge or influence the manager. Do we really think that this is an organisation able to demonstrate the clarity of purpose and good judgment to appoint a more illustrious successor to Wenger? I am very afraid of what is going to happen in the power vaccuum of Wenger leaving. I can see us being a Liverpool or an Aston Villa. I'm afraid that the bad times may only just be beginning.
:gp:

Spot on.

[Letters]

PnG, forget all the bollocks about who was right, who was wrong, when, and why.

It is very difficult, sometimes in the heat of a result, to tell who is on the wind-up and who isn't. Especially when certain posters will only come on to post when we lose. If we get a good result, the plaudits, or even shared happiness in 3 points, is often distinctly lacking from some posters, who are more than happy to laugh (YES, even laugh) and rub it in when we lose.

That is why some people get called out on it.

Nothing to do with the AKB brigade whatsoever.

All to do with supporting your club first and foremost, come what may.

:gp:

Those who have been doom-mongering for years now being smug about us being in serious decline now is like two brothers one of whom thinks their mum is just under the weather, the other thinking she has terminal cancer, them finding out the latter was right and him laughing in the former's face and saying "Ha! See? Told ya!"

A little over-dramatic, perhaps, but FFS, we're all supposed to be Arsenal fans here. We're all supposed to want what's best for the club.

Those who thought things were going wrong from 2006 onwards and are now smug are giving themselves a bit too much credit.
When Utd struggled for a few seasons a load of spoilt Utd fans were calling for Fergie's head, they look pretty stupid now. The fact is the last 7 years have not been an abject failure, they've not been a straight decline. There have been better seasons and worse seasons. Those moaning 5 years ago were premature, it's only the last couple of years where the rot has started to seriously set in.

I'm less bothered that I was about Wenger leaving, there's less to lose and it's increasingly looking like it's the only way for the club to move forward but it's not a magic bullet and it will IMO cause more short term pain even if longer term it gets us where we want to be.

[Power n Glory]

You've got some nerve talking about smugness and talking about us all being Arsenal fans with the way you've carried on over the years. You have a band of followers that regularly take the piss and act smug whenever Zimm posts and have shouted down a load of valid opinions. The very phrase 'doom mongering' pisses me off and has been used countless times to draw a divide on here.

I'm not being smug and you among others have got to be one of the worst culprits when it comes to the 'I told you so' rubbish after a good run of results. Don't try it.

[Letters]

I'm happy when Arsenal are doing well. Some people on here seem happy when we're not. Odd, frankly.

[Power n Glory]

There you go with that simplistic, devisive and insulting 'lesser fan' rhetoric and then have the nerve to talk about us all being Arsenal fans in your previous post. Hypocrit.

[Joker]

Who do you think is happy when we lose? And IMO the people who bump old posts critical of Wenger/certain players when we have a good result are more guilty of smugness than the so called doom mongers.

[Ollie the Optimist]

There you go with that simplistic, devisive and insulting 'lesser fan' rhetoric and then have the nerve to talk about us all being Arsenal fans in your previous post. Hypocrit.

the problem is, when we win, the match reaction thread will contain about 3 posts, and certain posters are no where to be seen. when we lose the threads are much larger and certain posters appear again.

you can see why people think these certain posters appear to be happy when we lose

[Joker]

Who are these certain posters?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Who are these certain posters?

i think its fairly obvious who they are

[Olivier's xmas twist]

i think its fairly obvious who they are

Why even reply for.

[Joker]

i think its fairly obvious who they are

Well not really, because the posters I assume you're talking about (myself, Zim, PnG, Wiltord's Winner, gooners) have all posted both in threads after we've won and lost.

[Power n Glory]

the problem is, when we win, the match reaction thread will contain about 3 posts, and certain posters are no where to be seen. when we lose the threads are much larger and certain posters appear again.

you can see why people think these certain posters appear to be happy when we lose

Consider the fact that most people like to moan on the Internet but celebrate with their mates after a victory. That's one possibility. Also, there have been too many occasions where people will try to score points with other posters after a victory and that can be a cause of avoiding the thread. I know who you mean and I've seen them around for wins and losses but also seen groups of posters take opportunity to take cheap shots as well.

[Globalgunner]

All sides of the debate have been on this board loud and clear for a while back. While no one likes a smug "I told you so" once realisation has dawned on everyone. Only an absolute revisionist would deny that there have been a set of posters here who took their defence of Wenger to the hieghts of deism. they would brook no counter argument and would descend on such poster with a pack mentality and unremitting ferocity. The lauging emoticon was their weapon of choice.
I muself posted about 3 years ago that our wage structure was killing us and that it borderd on socialism......Cue paroxyms of laughter. Sir Norris would bury anyone who ever mentioned the word within our hallowed walls they said. I once said that Wenger was done after 2004 because he didnt have what it takes to win the big cup....same thing. how dare you criticise a double winning manager. its easy for one side to forget but less so for the others on the recieving end. Its a moot point because no one wants to be right about predicting a train wreck, but the cues have been obvious for years. The optimists rightly in their minds chose to ignore it, but heck, we are where we are. We need to find a graceful exit for Wenger because personally, i dont think he has it in him, i believe, to be self critical and analyse dispassionately whether he is doing the best job possible for this club. The club has for too long been built around him and made in his image. We are where we are because of him and will stay this way as long as he stays. It will be hard for him as I fear he will be unable to feel as comfortable at any other club, but the club has also been good to him and frankly management is a young mans sport. He needs to let someone else lead us in another direction, wherever that may take us.
Peace.

[IBK]

:gp:

Those who have been doom-mongering for years now being smug about us being in serious decline now is like two brothers one of whom thinks their mum is just under the weather, the other thinking she has terminal cancer, them finding out the latter was right and him laughing in the former's face and saying "Ha! See? Told ya!"

A little over-dramatic, perhaps, but FFS, we're all supposed to be Arsenal fans here. We're all supposed to want what's best for the club.

Those who thought things were going wrong from 2006 onwards and are now smug are giving themselves a bit too much credit.
When Utd struggled for a few seasons a load of spoilt Utd fans were calling for Fergie's head, they look pretty stupid now. The fact is the last 7 years have not been an abject failure, they've not been a straight decline. There have been better seasons and worse seasons. Those moaning 5 years ago were premature, it's only the last couple of years where the rot has started to seriously set in.

I'm less bothered that I was about Wenger leaving, there's less to lose and it's increasingly looking like it's the only way for the club to move forward but it's not a magic bullet and it will IMO cause more short term pain even if longer term it gets us where we want to be.

:gp: My sentiments exactly. And I have never seen myself as an AKB. I have always just tried to be rational about what's going on.

[Özim]

the problem is, when we win, the match reaction thread will contain about 3 posts, and certain posters are no where to be seen. when we lose the threads are much larger and certain posters appear again.

you can see why people think these certain posters appear to be happy when we lose
I can tell you why though, it's pretty clear that the wins these days paper over the cracks and mean there's no hope of change...which is what many of us want. Rarely am I excited by wins these days, I generally don't find us enjoyable to watch and when we win it gives Wenger all the ammunition to stick to his guns and change nothing (he'd probably do that anyway but it's even more likely then).

[Özim]

:gp:

Those who have been doom-mongering for years now being smug about us being in serious decline now is like two brothers one of whom thinks their mum is just under the weather, the other thinking she has terminal cancer, them finding out the latter was right and him laughing in the former's face and saying "Ha! See? Told ya!"

A little over-dramatic, perhaps, but FFS, we're all supposed to be Arsenal fans here. We're all supposed to want what's best for the club.

Those who thought things were going wrong from 2006 onwards and are now smug are giving themselves a bit too much credit.
When Utd struggled for a few seasons a load of spoilt Utd fans were calling for Fergie's head, they look pretty stupid now. The fact is the last 7 years have not been an abject failure, they've not been a straight decline. There have been better seasons and worse seasons. Those moaning 5 years ago were premature, it's only the last couple of years where the rot has started to seriously set in.

I'm less bothered that I was about Wenger leaving, there's less to lose and it's increasingly looking like it's the only way for the club to move forward but it's not a magic bullet and it will IMO cause more short term pain even if longer term it gets us where we want to be.
That's untrue to be honest, what leads to the I told you so post is gangs of posters trying to make a running joke of other posters, it happened in the old days as well it's just that in those days Wenger had many more supporters so those who questioned him were easy targets.

As for all being Arsenal fans that is all well and good, I don't remember anyone saying that when someone disagreed about Wenger in the past, it would just be a case of "WUM", "Spud", let's all laugh at the people who dare to question the mighty Arsene Wenger.

Some people just spotted the signs earlier than others, the Fergie example is all well and good but he turned it around...Wenger hasn't in a much longer period...this was always an argument in the past, that Ferguson went 3 years without success, but when that period went past for Wenger he was still given chance after chance despite showing absolutely no flexibility or willingess to change.

Had he shown himself open to change, I'd have supported him more, but for me his rigid policies when things weren't working were mystifying.

I take no pleasure from Arsenal failures whatever anyone might think, watching the club going into decline, losing all it's best players and doing nothing about it is sad, as is the fact I really don't enjoy watching the team as before (even pre Wenger).

Right now I've given up hope that we'll change and given up hope we can upset anyone.

[Chuck Felsea]

If Wenger does step down, the board will probably replace him with Steve Bruce...

[Kano]

yes that is definitely going to happen.

[Niall_Quinn]

They will replace him with the juice man from Del Monte.

[Xhaka Can’t]

yes that is definitely going to happen.

Well it's better than Harry facking Redknapp.

Literally.

[Xhaka Can’t]

They will replace him with the juice man from Del Monte.

Well it's better than Harry Facking Redknapp.

Literally.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

:lol:

[Japan Shaking All Over]

They will replace him with the juice man from Del Monte.

Another 'yes man' - no thanks!

[Gervinho's Forehead]

Another 'yes man' - no thanks!

:lol:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Well it's better than Harry Facking Redknapp.

Literally.

wenger's managerial record is better than redknapp's but i think redknapp is far superior.

wenger's overrated.

[Xhaka Can’t]

That is the one thing you can say about Redknapp. He has never been overrated.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

true. i think we can attribute that to his great dribbling.

[Özim]

I guess that must mean he first and foremost has strength and pace.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

true. more balance though.

[LDG]

I guess that must mean he first and foremost has strength and pace.

Strwengff, is how the great man says it :sulk:

WUMger :bow:

[Letters]

Racist <_<

[LDG]

Racist <_<

So's N_Q :angry:

[Niall_Quinn]

So's N_Q :angry:

I'm studying to become a black lawyer so I can put an end to these slurs once and for all!

[LDG]

Wenger can stay if we beat Spurs on Saturday :good:

[GP]

And if we lose?

[Letters]

And if we lose?GWmageddon

[LDG]

And if we lose?

We won't.

[GP]

:patrice:

[GP]

http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1160625/spurs-crying-o.gif

[GP]

http://nsa27.casimages.com/img/2011/08/26/110826112337257475.gif

[GP]

http://gifsoup.com/webroot/animatedgifs/231271_o.gif

[LDG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOvaxECYrrw

[LDG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvyxpdX7WRw&feature=related

:haha: :haha: :haha:

[Marc Overmars]

Love that Bergkamp goal.

Spufs. :pal:

[GP]

Spufs :haha:

They were proper shit then,

And still are.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Spufs :haha:

They were proper shit then,

And still are.

:gp:

[Japan Shaking All Over]

:gp:

Second that. . .

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Spufs :haha:

They were proper shit then,

And still are.

Top post.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Arsene Wenger has won more points in the premier league then tottenham have.


spurs :haha:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

/thread.

[LDG]

http://arseblog.com/2012/11/jacks-in-his-corset-jane-is-in-her-vest/


Time shows us that despite the dusty, oak panelled libraries of Arsenal history, the allusions of grandeur, the Marble Halls, the doorstop sized books with tales of trophy wins, Arsenal have always had an air of comedy about them. Slapstick lurks beneath the chapters of our voluminous encyclopedia.

The pages detailing Chapman’s successes contain a lesser thumbed paragraph on Dan Lewis’ brand new goalie shirt and how it cost Arsenal the 1927 F.A. Cup Final. Bertie Mee’s crowning moment may involve the iconoclastic image of Charlie George sprawled on the Wembley turf. Mee may choose to forget Ian Ure’s under hit backpass on the same patch of grass in 1969. Michael Thomas has an equal and opposite Nayim. “Would you belieeeeeeeve it?!” is genuflected by Barry Ferguson’s fringe furrowing fingers.

No Arsenal boss has been immune from the charms of farce. Even George Graham, the strict, po-faced stepfather of Arsenal managers, lost his trousers in an updraft against Luton in 1988. However, in Arsene’s reign, pub car park slugfest style affairs, such as the one against Fulham on Saturday, have become almost routine. 5-3, 4-4, 3-3, 5-2 and the like have become regular score lines.

The last few years have essentially been one manager’s struggle against the issue of balance. This season has been the perfect microcosm in that respect. We either tighten up in defence and sacrifice our scoring touch. Or else we become attacking free wheelers again and explode like rat bags at the back. I believe arse2mouse used the “whack-a-mole” analogy a few weeks ago, which is apposite.

Repeat showings of the same episode have led many to wonder if it is time for a new scriptwriter. The fanbase is still split fairly precariously between those that trust Arsene Wenger and those whose patience has expired. This division was neatly encapsulated in the stands on Saturday. As Berbatov rolled his penalty into the net, a large section of the North Bank began to sing “We want our Arsenal back!” only to be met with instant resistance in the shape of a camouflaging cry of “Come on Arsenal!”

It’s a combustible situation sitting amongst Arsenal fans nowadays, but I still think Wenger is highly thought of generally speaking, despite the maelstrom of opinions. He is rarely directly implicated in the choreographed howls of frustration. Which other Premier League club goes 2-0 down at Old Trafford and starts singing derogatory songs about the CEO in response?

There is a protest march against the club upcoming, the organisers of which are at pains to point out that the manager is not to be implicated in their disquiet. Surely the arch irony here is that when Kroenke first became involved with Arsenal, one of the chief anxieties revolved around him overly interfering with Wenger’s work! Orchestrated calls for the manager’s head have not occurred. Not inside the stadium at least.

A lot has changed in a short space of time at Arsenal. All of the popular suggestions for re-invigoration have been exhausted. Compared to 2008; the owner is different, the CEO is different, the playing staff is almost entirely refreshed, the backroom staff is different (from coaches to medical staff). Yet the same scenario persists in spite of Arsenal’s revolving door. There is only one constant.

The question as to whether you want the manager retained or replaced comes down to how you evaluate our recent performance. Are we overachieving, underachieving or about where we should be? To be honest, I’m not sure I even know anymore. However much I try to extricate myself from the tangled web of emotion and view it objectively, I find it difficult to get that perspective. I don’t think I truly will until Arsene’s successor has his feet under the table and we can assess his performance.

Ones spectacles become fogged by bored disillusionment when any individual has been in power for a long time. Personally, I don’t think much will change for the remainder of Arsene’s tenure, however long that is to be. We’re still seeing the same, basic defensive errors. We’re still lamenting injuries to Diaby, Rosicky and Gibbs like it’s some kind of unforeseen contretemps.

The question also arises around expectation. What can Arsenal fans reasonably demand? You have to apply soccernomics to the conundrum. Given the competitive environment, 3rd place is the most we can reasonably expect. To finish above both Manchester City and Chelsea consistently – even leaving United to one side – would require a managerial miracle. (To that end, it must also be said that finishing lower than 4th would constitute failure. How you apply performance in cup competitions to the formula is a contentious and ultimately subjective equation).

If there’s a managerial miracle worker out there, I’m all for signing him up. I’m just not convinced that, in the long term, a new man would achieve results in excess of the ones we’re experiencing. The journey may be different, but I am still to be convinced that the destination would change. For all the scepticism around Arsenal’s ‘prosperity is just around the corner’ bluster, the environment will alter soon.

Nobody knows how effective Financial Fair Play will be, but it doesn’t have to be enforced in a draconian fashion for the scales to swing N5-wards. Next season, each club will trouser around £35m upfront in overseas TV rights. Chelsea and Manchester City are going to have to bank it to comply with FFP. Make no mistake; neither club intends to flout the regulations wholesale. They both have strategies to meet it which will include shoving that money under a mattress. For Arsenal it will be almost entirely disposable.

I can already feel your eyes rolling, but this is the fact of the matter. Loopholes there may or may not be, but it’s reasonable to think FFP will have some effect, at least. The question then becomes whether you trust Arsene Wenger when those tectonic plates begin to shift. Will someone who has chosen to leave £70m gathering dust in a vault suddenly get itchy cheque book fingers? Has leaving that money been part of a deliberate strategy? Again, I’m just not really sure I know at the moment.

The debate is circular and complex, even if you have it with someone considered and reasonable. (i.e. Somebody that resists acronyms and insults). As you can probably tell by this sinuous rambling, I’m something of an Arsene agnostic at the moment. It’s an uncomfortable position for a habitual know-all like me. But there is no shame in being intellectually dissatisfied.

Not knowing precisely how the universe got here doesn’t mean you have to believe that a beardy man on a cloud conjured it from nothing. Who knows? Maybe there is a hirsute miracle worker out there who can cry “Let there be light!” and turn one of Chamakh’s ribs into a decent centre forward? But at this point, I’m minded of Lou Reed’s weary sign off in his 1967 signature piece ‘Heroin’, “And I guess, that I just don’t know. I guess, that I just don’t know.” LD



Stillman :bow: :bow:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

when talking about zlatan's goal:

"They say he’s a master in kung fu. You could see that on Wednesday night. You need some special flexibility, subtleness and physical strength to do that, apart from the fact that you have to realise what you have to do."

"When [England goalkeeper Joe] Hart headed the ball, he took a distance to eventually get the ball. There’s intelligence included as well. I’m an admirer of collective goals, but as an individual achievement, just you and the ball in the situation of the game, it is something exceptional.

has there ever been a manager in the history of football that speaks so much shit in his press conferences? subtleness? :lol:

pure wenget.