Armand Traore

[The Verminator]

If Clichy is sold could he be our new first choice left back?

[Niall_Quinn]

Don't see why not. He's average enough to hold down the role.

[Sirjackofwilshere]

He is mediocre ffs

[Cripps_orig]

Forgot we still had him

Another success of Wenger Youth Project

[AKBapologist]

Bartley would be better.

[AKBapologist]

And why do people believe that having a high number of *youth project* players dropping out or is a bad thing or suggests some sort of failure? From hundreds of academy players only 2-5 should made it for a club our ambition and compared to what we get in transfer fees (most of the time), the cost in wages and training is negligible IMO.

Problem is, were not getting the other 17-22, experienced players and relying on the youths too much.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

Forgot we still had him

Another success of Wenger Youth Project

:gp:

[Özim]

And why do people believe that having a high number of *youth project* players dropping out or is a bad thing or suggests some sort of failure?
The reason is it's been our whole focus for years and yet it's hard to tell if we're any better at finding young talent than anyone else who doesn't focus on a youth policy.

Considering the amount of money and players and time we've spent on the youth policy I'd say it's not been much of a success.

[Marc Overmars]

Another one we can flog to raise the monies.

[gunsofashburtongrove]

And why do people believe that having a high number of *youth project* players dropping out or is a bad thing or suggests some sort of failure? From hundreds of academy players only 2-5 should made it for a club our ambition and compared to what we get in transfer fees (most of the time), the cost in wages and training is negligible IMO.

Problem is, were not getting the other 17-22, experienced players and relying on the youths too much.

:gp: Barcelona is a good example of this, they have a good bunch of players promoted from the academy over the years Puyol, Xavi and Messi are all diffeerent batches of youth. They add Ibra, Ronaldinho, Henry, Mascherano, Villa, Alves etc to that mix where they cannot find quality in-house replacements

[Özim]

:gp: Barcelona is a good example of this, they have a good bunch of players promoted from the academy over the years Puyol, Xavi and Messi are all diffeerent batches of youth. They add Ibra, Ronaldinho, Henry, Mascherano, Villa, Alves etc to that mix where they cannot find quality in-house replacements
Barca's youngsters have been significantly better than ours in reality and they don't focus on the youth policy as we do.

They have and always will buy in top players (at very high prices though), the fact they bring through young players is pretty amazing considering the talent these players are up against, they're a good example of how you can bring through top young players without it being your sole focus.

The issue with our policy is that for years all we've card about is the kids, there's no balance and we've not repaed the rewards of the policy we've adopted.

With the amount of resources we've spent on youht I would have expected better results in terms of the quality coming through, there's 2-3 that have been good the rest are nothing special.

[server too busy!]

But look how long its taken Barcelona to be this good a team, it didn't happen over night. Xavi is well into his 30s and the team is ageing, its taken them many years to get to this level and I don't think they will again. Its just a golden era like the old Utd team.

[selassie]

If Clichy is sold could he be our new first choice left back?

He's garbage.

[Flavs]

But look how long its taken Barcelona to be this good a team, it didn't happen over night. Xavi is well into his 30s and the team is ageing, its taken them many years to get to this level and I don't think they will again. Its just a golden era like the old Utd team.

Barca are like AC milan in that they go in cycles brilliant and win everything and then drop off while they sell loads of players, buy a load of players and supplement it with youth and then wait while it all gels then come back strong again.

Think back to the teams of the past? The Stoichkov team, the Ronaldinho team and now this, what happened in betwen? Same for AC The Baresi, Gullit team, then the Maldini and Seedorf lot and now this new lot.

[The Verminator]

He's garbage.

I don't rate him either. I wouldn't rule out what I asked becoming true however. Probably not though...I hope! :o

[Darth Vela]

The reason is it's been our whole focus for years and yet it's hard to tell if we're any better at finding young talent than anyone else who doesn't focus on a youth policy.

Considering the amount of money and players and time we've spent on the youth policy I'd say it's not been much of a success.

It's about the development as much as simply spotting potential. Wilshere is the first of a new wave, the guys who've grown up the Arsene way, if none of the others are able to follow him then sure, it'll be a failure but until then I don't think you can class it as a complete failure.

Anyway, I don't think Traore will be back in the squad next season whether it's a loan or a permanent, Pedro will be coming in along with maybe other wingers and, if Clichy goes, we must replace him with someone who's ready, like Baines, so he won't gt a look in at LB either.

[Özim]

It's about the development as much as simply spotting potential. Wilshere is the first of a new wave, the guys who've grown up the Arsene way, if none of the others are able to follow him then sure, it'll be a failure but until then I don't think you can class it as a complete failure.

Anyway, I don't think Traore will be back in the squad next season whether it's a loan or a permanent, Pedro will be coming in along with maybe other wingers and, if Clichy goes, we must replace him with someone who's ready, like Baines, so he won't gt a look in at LB either.
To be fair when AW first arrived he had a 10 year plan regarding bringing youngsters through, whilst Wilshere has broken through and been very good he seems to be the only one so far, it wouldn't have been unfair to have expected a few more.

Not sure any of the other youngsters will make it either.

[Flavs]

To be fair when AW first arrived he had a 10 year plan regarding bringing youngsters through, whilst Wilshere has broken through and been very good he seems to be the only one so far, it wouldn't have been unfair to have expected a few more.

Not sure any of the other youngsters will make it either.

Why arent you including Theo, Cesc, Clichy, Bendtner, Djorou, Gibbs, James Harper, Steve Sidwell, Jay Bothroyd, Fabrice Muamba and so on?

[Darth Vela]

To be fair when AW first arrived he had a 10 year plan regarding bringing youngsters through, whilst Wilshere has broken through and been very good he seems to be the only one so far, it wouldn't have been unfair to have expected a few more.

Not sure any of the other youngsters will make it either.

Yep, Wilshere is the first as we've all witnessed his great talent (apologies for the hyperbole but it's true imo) so after one year of this 10 year mark, you're willing to write it off? One year? Really?

I'm not sure any of the others will make it either, that's a major part of youth development, you throw shit at the wall and see what sticks but we've got the stickiest shit...don't think I should carry this analogy any further but the point is we've brought a fair few youth guys into our team in this time, with varying success admittedly, but Cesc/Clichy/Bendtner/Flamini/Djourou have all come through and played regularly in our first team along with Muamba/Bentley/Pennant/Larsson/Sidwell who have all played in the Premiership to reasonable success (although Bentley's now in the Championship :pal:).

[Mr.Singh]

Implementing a youth policy is a long term thing.....you need to understand only 10 players out of 40 will have a future at the club.....barcas team has only a few la masia cadets.It takes years to develop class players look at united for example, have they produced class players expect the beckham and co.

[selassie]

I don't rate him either. I wouldn't rule out what I asked becoming true however. Probably not though...I hope! :o

Yeah, Arsene has form for promoting from within. I do personally think he should be very careful about doing this now given our lack of success over the past few seasons. If Clichy is to go then he needs to be replaced properly.

For me, Traore is like Denilson or Vela...a player that has lost there way, I've never really rated Traore that high in the first place anyway.

[selassie]

Implementing a youth policy is a long term thing.....you need to understand only 10 players out of 40 will have a future at the club.....barcas team has only a few la masia cadets.It takes years to develop class players look at united for example, have they produced class players expect the beckham and co.

Yep, there's nothing wrong with implementing a youth policy and investing a lot of money in it. Where we've gone wrong is that we've invested far too much money & time in players who are not capable of the standard we require, that's basically the bottomline. Our academy since Arsene has been around has produced some gems, namely Ashley Cole & Jack Wilshere, it's just Arsene has also invested way too much time in players like Denilson, Eboue & Vela who have effectively come through our own "self created" youth system. I understand the model he (Arsene) has created, the problem has been letting go when it's not working, not letting go of the system but the player.

[Özim]

Why arent you including Theo, Cesc, Clichy, Bendtner, Djorou, Gibbs, James Harper, Steve Sidwell, Jay Bothroyd, Fabrice Muamba and so on?
Well Sidwell, Bothroyd, Muamba, Harper never made it at the club so I don't see how they are successes (they could only really be deemed successes if they make it with us or are considered good enough to play for us at the end of the day).

Theo was bought in reality, another club developed him and we paid big money to sign him.

Bendtner hasn't made it judging from his displays and people's views on him. For me though a true youth product is one that comes through the ranks, because AW's 10 year policy surely can't include players we effectively snatch from other clubs when they are 17/18 and thus have already learnt a lot from their home clubs.

Gibbs is a true youth who's come through the ranks, he's still to prove good enough though thus far, not convinced he's the real deal as a full back, as a winger maybe.

Cesc you could argue came through.

The 10 year plan represents home grown players who have come through the ranks from a young age though IMO, not players we signed from other clubs in their late teens.

[Flavs]

Well Sidwell, Bothroyd, Muamba, Harper never made it at the club so I don't see how they are successes (they could only really be deemed successes if they make it with us or are considered good enough to play for us at the end of the day).

Theo was bought in reality, another club developed him and we paid big money to sign him.

Bendtner hasn't made it judging from his displays and people's views on him. For me though a true youth product is one that comes through the ranks, because AW's 10 year policy surely can't include players we effectively snatch from other clubs when they are 17/18 and thus have already learnt a lot from their home clubs.

Gibbs is a true youth who's come through the ranks, he's still to prove good enough though thus far, not convinced he's the real deal as a full back, as a winger maybe.

Cesc you could argue came through, though I reckon Barca knew how good he was but were powerless to stop him, thus he'd already learnt his trade with them.


This post smells of so much shit i cant even begin to answer it to be honest

Good work :good:

[dazthegooner]

The way i see it Wenger hasn't done much wrong with his youth policy apart from bringing too many in to quickly into the first team, we need a blend of youngsters and experience which hopefully he may now change.

[Özim]

This post smells of so much shit i cant even begin to answer it to be honest

Good work :good:
Nice reply, fact is anyone can go out and buy other people's best youngsters, you don't need a youth policy to do that.

[dazthegooner]

Yep doesn't make much sense to me either...


Though agree with Ferguson (please forgive me) English clubs are not allowed enough time with the youngsters as apposed to other European nations.

But then again that comes with having nobody with any football backround running the English game, would you trust a plumber to conduct a triple heart bypass?

[Darth Vela]

Nice reply, fact is anyone can go out and buy other people's best youngsters, you don't need a youth policy to do that.

Yeah, anyone can buy up the talent but providing the right direction and development as well as giving them the chances in the team requires a specific policy and careful planning, that's the trick.

[Özim]

Yeah, anyone can buy up the talent but providing the right direction and development as well as giving them the chances in the team requires a specific policy and careful planning, that's the trick.
If you sign up top talented young players from other club they've got as much chance of making it at any other top club as they do with us. I'd argue they have a better chance with other top clubs due to being able to learn from top experienced players, whereas at ours they are surrounded by other kids.

There's examples out there, Bale, Rooney, Ronaldo to name but a few of them.

Honestly believe our youth policy is vastly overrrated, be interesting to see if our % success rate is acutally any better than other clubs.

West Ham seem to have the best youth policy around over the years.

A lot of these guys have been around since 2005-2006 over 5 years, how many have actually really improved that much since then?

[AKBapologist]

Would messieurs Song, Gibbs, Waclott, Ramnsey, Bendtner, Djuorru and Fabregas not be considered as products of our youth system?

I always thought we had an abnormally high number of players in the senior team who where brought here before 21. Depends on how you slice this hair I suppose.

Sure, we all (I think) agree that not enough experienced players are retained/purchased but to suggest that the youth system is failing the club is a little silly.

Selling Bendtner and Denilson alone for 18mill combined I think more than compensates us for wages and resources spent on them whilst they where here.

[Özim]

Would messieurs Song, Gibbs, Waclott, Ramnsey, Bendtner, Djuorru and Fabregas not be considered as products of our youth system?

I always thought we had an abnormally high number of players in the senior team who where brought here before 21. Depends on how you slice this hair I suppose.

Sure, we all (I think) agree that not enough experienced players are retained/purchased but to suggest that the youth system is failing the club is a little silly.

Selling Bendtner and Denilson alone for 18mill combined I think more than compensates us for wages and resources spent on them whilst they where here.
Only if you consider players like Rooney and Ronaldo products of Man Utd's youth policy.

I personally don't, those two have improved, but generally footballers will when they have a lot of talent and are surrounded by other quality players. Rooney was initially discovered and developed by Everton and Ronaldo by Sporting.

I never said it was failing, just that it's not actually anything our of the ordinary.

[Darth Vela]

Yeah, West Ham probably have one of the best youth records around, Carrick/Lampard/Cole/Ferdinand (R, not A) all top class players imo and if we can match that with our crop then I'll be happy.

I can see your first point, that's pretty valid although I reckon the chances they get to play at the top level in actual matches outweigh any potential gain from having the older, mentor-type players around, after all we have coaches for a reason, right?

I don't see what the fact that other talented players developing into great players has to do with anything, I'm not claiming we have some kind of monopoly on developing good young players but that we have a bit of an advantage due to the way we're set up, younger players getting more chances are more likely to develop quicker and further, if we can't agree on that I ain't gonna ever agree with you on youth.

[AKBapologist]

Sure it is different/special/unusual, no other team has so many players under 23 with so many games behind them. At Arsenal, they simply get huge amounts of time to play. I don't think there are many other clubs in the EPL like that tbh.

[Özim]

I can see your first point, that's pretty valid although I reckon the chances they get to play at the top level in actual matches outweigh any potential gain from having the older, mentor-type players around, after all we have coaches for a reason, right?

I don't see what the fact that other talented players developing into great players has to do with anything, I'm not claiming we have some kind of monopoly on developing good young players but that we have a bit of an advantage due to the way we're set up, younger players getting more chances are more likely to develop quicker and further, if we can't agree on that I ain't gonna ever agree with you on youth.
I still think learning from other top players seems to be the best method, you often use to hear from other players how they'd idolise Henry for example and that they learnt so much from him. If you look at our team now, it could be coincidence but they don't seem to have the hunger or motivation to really deliver success.

Whilst our young players do get more chances, I believe the top youngsters will break through regardless, the players who have more chance with us in reality are those youngsters who are not so special, players like Denilson, Bendtner, Gibbs etc....players who maybe would get to play at other big clubs because they don't have the talent/desire to dislodge their more experienced 1st team members.

[Özim]

Sure it is different/special/unusual, no other team has so many players under 23 with so many games behind them. At Arsenal, they simply get huge amounts of time to play. I don't think there are many other clubs in the EPL like that tbh.
Very true, but it follows that they should be far in advance of their counterparts at other clubs, the problem is most of these guys are nothing special so their counterparts are often way ahead of them because they needed more talent to break through in the 1st place.

[Darth Vela]

I still think learning from other top players seems to be the best method, you often use to hear from other players how they'd idolise Henry for example and that they learnt so much from him. If you look at our team now, it could be coincidence but they don't seem to have the hunger or motivation to really deliver success.

Whilst our young players do get more chances, I believe the top youngsters will break through regardless, the players who have more chance with us in reality are those youngsters who are not so special, players like Denilson, Bendtner, Gibbs etc....players who maybe would get to play at other big clubs because they don't have the talent/desire to dislodge their more experienced 1st team members.

It is a useful thing to have older guys to learn from, I think that's why we welcome guys like Pires/Beckham back to train and wanted Sol to stay for another year but if it's a case of attitude and mentality (which I believe our main problem is) being at fault I'm not sure having those guys around makes a big difference for that, we've always had experience at the back and that didn't work out so well.

Also, if we're talking the top youngsters then in most cases they will force their way through (i.e. the guys like Messi/Ronaldo/Cesc/Pedro/Casillas) but the majority of guys that go onto become great players weren't at the top from the start, Zidane/Ronaldinho/Villa all needed to pay their dues to improve to the level they got to, or are at in Villa's case, if we can expedite this process by accelerated involvement when they're ready to play a part, we get better players, more quickly. That's the theory anyway, it hasn't been an unqualified success but we wouldn't have maintained this level if it was a failure, a reasonable number of our players are ahead of where they would have been otherwise imo; I'm fully aware that opinion is borderline nutty atm and completely unsubstantiated but I wouldn't bet against both Denilson and Bentdner doing well for their new teams, along with any other of our older first team youngsters that leave.

[Daniele]

he had a poor season here at Juventus what with injuries, inconsistent displays and so on. Better get rid of.

[fakeyank]

Even a blind chicken is better than Clichy, so yes, I'd love him here!

[selassie]

Even a blind chicken is better than Clichy, so yes, I'd love him here!

Traore is worse than Clichy.

In fact I'd go as far as to say he's hopeless, he's awful defensively and a complete headless chicken.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

The way i see it Wenger hasn't done much wrong with his youth policy apart from bringing too many in to quickly into the first team, we need a blend of youngsters and experience which hopefully he may now change.

although I agree with you in sense, I am not too sure about the bringing in too quickly part.......it's more like he has shown far too much reliance on it, like you said he overlooked the importance of blend in bits of experience and I am sorry Silvestre does not quantify that arguement!!!

[The Wengerbabies]

although I agree with you in sense, I am not too sure about the bringing in too quickly part.......it's more like he has shown far too much reliance on it, like you said he overlooked the importance of blend in bits of experience and I am sorry Silvestre does not quantify that arguement!!!
Yeah agreed not sure about bringing them in too quickly more getting rid of the old guard too quickly, the speed at which he dissolved the Invincible team so quickly was a mistake imo.

[The Verminator]

http://younggunsblog.co.uk/2011/06/loanee-analysis-armand-traore/?

[Injury Time]

Forgot we still had him
Me too! :ilt: