Chelsea v Arsenal 13:30 Sunday 20th January SS1

[Cripps_orig]

Chelsea have been awful at home. Would be just typical to win v us then

Sir Ches

Sagna Mert Verm Gibbs

Rosicky Wilshere Cazorla

Ox Theo Podolski

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

did sky have to put this humiliation live in front of the nation?

[Cripps_orig]

did sky have to put this humiliation live in front of the nation?

Our 9th televised game in a row this is. Only won 4 of the previous 8.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

i think we've only lost once when ive posted it in a match thread.

lets keep the good record going.

[Boss]

Man up lads.

We're twatting these twats.

[fakeyank]

i think we've only lost once when ive posted it in a match thread.

lets keep the good record going.

Looks like this will be the second..

[Letters]

did sky have to put this humiliation live in front of the nation?
I don't think we'll humiliate them. Loving the optimism though. C'mon Arsenal :patrice:

[Marc Overmars]

Hopefully agent Benitez is on top form for this one.

[Dennis Bendtner]

When do they tend to release news about possible postponements? Or is that just Arsenal being pussies for home games. I'm not sure I can be arsed to man up enough to go to this anyway.

[Niall_Quinn]

With the spuds up against the mancs and the potential to close the gap this is a huge game. The lads need to handle the pressure and put in a big performance.

Chav win.

[fakeyank]

Yup, IF we win and spurs win against Utd, we will only be 18 points behind Utd.

Title race is back on! :scarf:

[Niall_Quinn]

Yup, IF we win and spurs win against Utd, we will only be 18 points behind Utd.

Title race is back on! :scarf:

I was talking about catching the spuds. Utd are already long gone.

[fakeyank]

I was talking about catching the spuds. Utd are already long gone.

U gotta be optimistic :lol:

[Cripps_orig]

Chelsea v Arsenal (13:30 GMT)

Chelsea are struggling to win at home and I could not believe they surrendered a 2-0 half-time lead against Southampton on Wednesday.

Benitez has won just one of six domestic home games as interim Chelsea boss
For me, they cannot win the title now and the situation at Stamford Bridge is even more interesting now Pep Guardiola has agreed to take charge of Bayern Munich.
It is no good for the Blues fans to keep booing Rafael Benitez during home matches - yes, do that at the final whistle if you want to, but not during the game.
The Blues went to the Emirates Stadium and won in September but their home form makes this a cast-iron draw for me. I think it will be a very tight game.
Arsenal are six points off the top four, albeit with a game in hand, but I would still back them to finish in the Champions League positions. It will be interesting to see how their results compare with Tottenham in the next few weeks.
Lawro's prediction: 1-1


No chance

[Özim]

Yup, IF we win and spurs win against Utd, we will only be 18 points behind Utd.

Title race is back on! :scarf:
Just looked, we're closer to the relegation zone than to Man U.

Arsenal :rose:

[fakeyank]

Just looked, we're closer to the relegation zone than to Man U.

Arsenal :rose:

Be optimistic my friend. We have a shiny awesome stadium, a banker as manager, Theo just signed a new deal, Chakma is out on loan and Wilshere doesnt look likely to put in a transfer request in the next 2-3 years. The future is bright.. the future is red and white! VE VILL VIN BPL 2020-21! :scarf:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Just looked, we're closer to the relegation zone than to Man U.

Arsenal :rose:

however we are closer to champions league glory then manchester city. its a stupid point to make

[Özim]

however we are closer to champions league glory then manchester city. its a stupid point to make

Your point is nonsense yes, but mine isn't. It clearly shows how far we've fallen behind when the relegation places are closer to us than the league leaders. The CL is a cup competition and Man City had a ridiculously hard group, we'd have been knocked out as well had we been in their group.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's an argument that'll make more sense when we've all played the same amount of games although even then I don't really think it means anything revelatory, 21 points behind or 12 points behind, it'd still be far too much.

Citeh deserve no sympathy or understanding for their CL group, not least because of how much they have spent to improve their squad but it's their fault for not doing well enough in the Europa League last season and the same may well occur next season (in fact with dropping out completely from Europe it might be even worse next time).

[Özim]

It's an argument that'll make more sense when we've all played the same amount of games although even then I don't really think it means anything revelatory, 21 points behind or 12 points behind, it'd still be far too much.

Citeh deserve no sympathy or understanding for their CL group, not least because of how much they have spent to improve their squad but it's their fault for not doing well enough in the Europa League last season and the same may well occur next season (in fact with dropping out completely from Europe it might be even worse next time).
True but Man U have only played one game more than us and even if we added three points now we'd be 18 points behind then and 18 points ahead of the relegation zone.

The CL though doesn't at this stage reflect the quality of a side as one can have an easyish group (like us) and another team can get a much tougher group with quality teams like City, 2 of the teams in their group have got a decent chance of winning the whole thing.

Yes they've spent more money, but looking at it from a purely football side (ie quality of the team/squad) they are a better outfit, they've won more than us in recent years, wont he league last year and are above us this year as well. and of course beat us last week.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

True but Man U have only played one game more than us and even if we added three points now we'd be 18 points behind then and 18 points ahead of the relegation zone.

The CL though doesn't at this stage reflect the quality of a side as one can have an easyish group (like us) and another team can get a much tougher group with quality teams like City, 2 of the teams in their group have got a decent chance of winning the whole thing.

Yes they've spent more money, but looking at it from a purely football side (ie quality of the team/squad) they are a better outfit.

And Reading have played two games more than us. Also, you could say we finished 19 points behind Man Utd last season so the difference between the two sides is much the same as it was (in terms of relative to the two teams, it might be that other teams have superceded us).

I don't think Ollie was saying Citeh aren't better than us but just that looking at it from a points perspective doesn't tell you anything in isolation and is all rather arbitrary. All you're doing in 'defending' them is admitting they don't have enough to compete with the very best, in European competition which I presume is what you think of us too. That comes as a huge downer on their overall ability when it comes to evaluating them. Plus, we're closer to Citeh now than where we finished last season so are we also right to assume you think we've draw closer to them this season? I would suspect you don't think that, in spite of this points 'point'.

[Niall_Quinn]

City are gypo ****s.

[Kano]

The CL though doesn't at this stage reflect the quality of a side as one can have an easyish group (like us) and another team can get a much tougher group with quality teams like City, 2 of the teams in their group have got a decent chance of winning the whole thing.
oh i disagree with that, particularly when the margin between the two sides over two games is remarmably wide. both the madrid games, unsurprisingly, showed a gulf between the spanish and english champions and of course we saw dortmund absolutely embarrass city in their own ground, then beat them with their second team. ajax even run rings round them in holland and at the eithad. when the control over the opposition is so apparent (as we have seen ourselves in seasons past when arsenal walk over teams from much lesser leagues), it gives a clear indication of the quality of each team.

[Özim]

And Reading have played two games more than us. Also, you could say we finished 19 points behind Man Utd last season so the difference between the two sides is much the same as it was (in terms of relative to the two teams, it might be that other teams have superceded us).

I don't think Ollie was saying Citeh aren't better than us but just that looking at it from a points perspective doesn't tell you anything in isolation and is all rather arbitrary. All you're doing in 'defending' them is admitting they don't have enough to compete with the very best, in European competition which I presume is what you think of us too. That comes as a huge downer on their overall ability when it comes to evaluating them. Plus, we're closer to Citeh now than where we finished last season so are we also right to assume you think we've draw closer to them this season? I would suspect you don't think that, in spite of this points 'point'.
I think you need to look at the table as it stands as points in the bag are always worth more, tomorrows round of games may make the points difference worse. As for last season, well that was at the end of the season, we've still got another 3 1/2 months so you'd argue we're doing worse, if anything Man U tend to get better in the 2nd half of the season.

European competition is a bit hit and miss IMO, we had great teams that failed in Europe for some reason or other despite being arguably the best around....it's more of a lottery. We may be closer to City but again it's not the end of the season there's a long way to go and they it's true they have not been as good as they were last season this season either.

[Özim]

oh i disagree with that, particularly when the margin between the two sides over two games is remarmably wide. both the madrid games, unsurprisingly, showed a gulf between the spanish and english champions and of course we saw dortmund absolutely embarrass city in their own ground, then beat them with their second team. ajax even run rings round them in holland and at the eithad. when the control over the opposition is so apparent (as we have seen ourselves in seasons past when arsenal walk over teams from much lesser leagues), it gives a clear indication of the quality of each team.
As I said to Maccy the CL is a bit of a lottery (as we discovered in our hayday), the best teams don't always win. What I will say is that Madrid are an exceptional side with fantastic players and I'd expect them to beat City, Dortmund have been a surprise to all but clearly possess a lot of quality as well.

They didn't perform too well in Europe though they did run Madrid close in the away game, but then they're not as strong as last season either.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think you need to look at the table as it stands as points in the bag are always worth more, tomorrows round of games may make the points difference worse. As for last season, well that was at the end of the season, we've still got another 3 1/2 months so you'd argue we're doing worse, if anything Man U tend to get better in the 2nd half of the season.

European competition is a bit hit and miss IMO, we had great teams that failed in Europe for some reason or other despite being arguably the best around....it's more of a lottery. We may be closer to City but again it's not the end of the season there's a long way to go and they it's true they have not been as good as they were last season this season either.

Why do I need to look at the table any more than I already do? I've already said it doesn't make any difference to me if we're 12 or 21 behind, it's still far too much either way. And it's a myth Man Utd do that much better in the second half of the season, quite regularly they have gained more points in the first half of the season but only by a minimal amount - they usually do as well in both the first 19 and last 19 of the season.

It's not a lottery if the same outcome keeps emerging, we know that more than most, surely?

Basically you're saying make a judgement between us and Man Utd and us and relegation now but we need to wait to make a judgement on us and the team likely to finish second. Makes no sense at all.

[Özim]

Why do I need to look at the table any more than I already do? I've already said it doesn't make any difference to me if we're 12 or 21 behind, it's still far too much either way. And it's a myth Man Utd do that much better in the second half of the season, quite regularly they have gained more points in the first half of the season but only by a minimal amount - they usually do as well in both the first 19 and last 19 of the season.

It's not a lottery if the same outcome keeps emerging, we know that more than most, surely?

Basically you're saying make a judgement between us and Man Utd and us and relegation now but we neeed to wait to make a judgement on us and the team likely to finish second. Makes no sense at all.
When I said you I wasn't talking about you specifically, just that this has to be considered :lol:

I don't think it's a myth, over the years they come on very strong many times in the 2nd half of the season and caught teams ahead of them regularly.

Well just look at Chelsea last season, they weren't the best team, this wasn't even the best Chelsea team and yet they won it. The CL isn't always won by the best team, luck certainly plays it's part and because it's not played every week it's quite conceivable that when a game comes up you're out of form. There's also other factors such as being inhibited due to fear of conceding and being placed in a tough group, it's no like the league where you play week in week out and feel like mistakes can be erased by some good form.

Very good teams win the CL, but it's not always the best teams, the group stages as has been highlighted this season can be somewhat unfair, with some teams getting an easy ride and other getting a far harder time due to a ridiculous seeding system.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It is a myth Zim, I posted on GW two seasons ago a comparison of how many points Man Utd gain from the first 19 to the last 19 and it is a lot, lot closer than gets portrayed. What they are is consistent in keeping their level across a season when one team quite often falters and that gives the perception they are doing 'better' than they did in the first half. Of course that is a skill in itself, to be able to do that when the season is nearing the end but in terms of outright points comparison - multiple season they have got more at the start.

Yes Chelsea won the Champions League when they possibly should not have but they have for a long time been at the level of making it quite far in the competition. However you're just picking out one example and making it the trend - what about when Barcelona have won it three times and when Man Utd won it the most recent time? They were the best teams in Europe at that point and they went on to win it.

I don't think the seeding system is ridiculous at all, nor unfair.

[Özim]

It is a myth Zim, I posted on GW two seasons ago a comparison of how many points Man Utd gain from the first 19 to the last 19 and it is a lot, lot closer than gets portrayed. What they are is consistent in keeping their level across a season when one team quite often falters and that gives the perception they are doing 'better' than they did in the first half. Of course that is a skill in itself, to be able to do that when the season is nearing the end but in terms of outright points comparison - multiple season they have got more at the start.

Yes Chelsea won the Champions League when they possibly should not have but they have for a long time been at the level of making it quite far in the competition. However you're just picking out one example and making it the trend - what about when Barcelona have won it three times and when Man Utd won it the most recent time? They were the best teams in Europe at that point and they went on to win it.

I don't think the seeding system is ridiculous at all, nor unfair.
It's not a 1 off, there's Porto, Liverpool, Chelsea.

Barcelona seem to have got the hang of the CL however, before their last three victories however they'd only won it once when it was the European cup, I think it takes more than being the best team to win it, there's other factors perhaps style of play and an ability to play with freedom as you do in the league.

The seeing system basically seeds some weaker teams above stronger ones, this makes no sense at all, the best teams should always be seeded highest if you have a seeding system, that's how it works in other sports, seeing is based on the years performance generally.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Porto deserve more respect I think as they did win their league too, as did Barcelona, Man Utd and Inter. To go back to Porto and Liverpool is to go back from when we last won the league and FA Cup, which would seem quite a long time ago now.

I don't see what Barcelona only winning it once as the European Cup really matters.

Anyway, you talk about the system of it (the seeding) being unfair, the what would you do to make it fair?

I should split this in to another thread really.

[Özim]

The CL winners (if relevant) and the 4 league winners from the top 4 performing countries in Europe (the previous season) in the top seeds pot and then a points system based on league position and CL performance if you got to the QF or further in the CL the previous year to work out the rest of the teams in the top pot and 2nd pot etc etc (you get more points if you come from a major league obviously).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ah so it would still be four pots of eight then and with country proection still intact?

I dunno, there's still an inherent unfairness from your perspective by judging part of it for one performance in a season (away from domestic title winners) for what is, as you have said before is a competition that can be a bit of a lottery.

[Özim]

The pots can stay, it's just the way teams are classified in those pots that change.

The thing is you have to take into consideration the CL as that's the competition you're playing in, but what the system I propose does is reward the league winners with top seeding status (and CL winners) and then classifies the rest based on league performance and performance in the CL if they got past the group stages.

I agree it's not perfect, but I think you have to rewards progress in the CL somehow or else a semi finalist might deem it a little unfair. There is a lottery element which I mentioned incorporated, however since the league performance comes into it as well it's not as influential.

[Kano]

As I said to Maccy the CL is a bit of a lottery (as we discovered in our hayday), the best teams don't always win. What I will say is that Madrid are an exceptional side with fantastic players and I'd expect them to beat City, Dortmund have been a surprise to all but clearly possess a lot of quality as well.

They didn't perform too well in Europe though they did run Madrid close in the away game, but then they're not as strong as last season either.
this is why i was trying to be very clear about the margin of victory and performance in all of those games. fair enough, you have tough group and you give your best. however, when you play the same team twice and on both occasions the other team is far and above the better performer then that sends a clear message. city should have been buried in that first game at madrid and got what they deserved come the end - even a draw would have been unfair. dortmund are only a surprise to those who have not (or been able to) taken note of their rise under klopp, so i would say the real surprise in the group was ajax who man city could not cope with at all - home or away.

when arsenal beat sparta (i think it was them) 8-0 some years back, that gave a clear indication of the difference between the two teams, one that all of us agreed with. the same applies to city this season. when utd went out in the group stage last year they did not have their arse handed to them in every game, so you could pick out the other reasons why that happened. this year, after games against far superior opposition in their group, city could not claim to be unlucky or on an 'off' day. they were simply out of their depth and the point i am making is that when performances like that take place over the course of six games, against three other teams, then you can garner a clear idea of where the losing team stands.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Zim, for your system to work, that will mean changing the coefficients and in lieu of that, it also means you'll change what the top four leagues are, as those coeffiicients are based on what coefficient clubs attain over the last five seasons. For instance, Spain would've had huge contribution from Atletico Madrid to their current coefficient in order to be considered No.1 but if they qualify for the Champions League this season, they would be in a lower pot because they happened to not be in the Champions League that season.

What I am getting at is that you would need to work out another way of deciding as to what are the best four performing leagues are, which cannot use the current coefficient system.

As a note, interesting to check in answer to this that England are in danger of being the fifth best performing country in Europe this season. No surprises to see Spain and Germany at the top.

[Özim]

this is why i was trying to be very clear about the margin of victory and performance in all of those games. fair enough, you have tough group and you give your best. however, when you play the same team twice and on both occasions the other team is far and above the better performer then that sends a clear message. city should have been buried in that first game at madrid and got what they deserved come the end - even a draw would have been unfair. dortmund are only a surprise to those who have not (or been able to) taken note of their rise under klopp, so i would say the real surprise in the group was ajax who man city could not cope with at all - home or away.

when arsenal beat sparta (i think it was them) 8-0 some years back, that gave a clear indication of the difference between the two teams, one that all of us agreed with. the same applies to city this season. when utd went out in the group stage last year they did not have their arse handed to them in every game, so you could pick out the other reasons why that happened. this year, after games against far superior opposition in their group, city could not claim to be unlucky or on an 'off' day. they were simply out of their depth and the point i am making is that when performances like that take place over the course of six games, against three other teams, then you can garner a clear idea of where the losing team stands.
We're not just looking at City then, because they're a better side then us and ran Man U close recently (and won the league last season), they due to the seeding system found themselves in a much tougher group than the other two teams.

I agree the top Spanish and German sides are better than the English sides, but there's other factors that come into play in the CL that don't apply in the league.

[Özim]

Zim, for your system to work, that will mean changing the coefficients and in lieu of that, it also means you'll change what the top four leagues are, as those coeffiicients are based on what coefficient clubs attain over the last five seasons. For instance, Spain would've had huge contribution from Atletico Madrid to their current coefficient in order to be considered No.1 but if they qualify for the Champions League this season, they would be in a lower pot because they happened to not be in the Champions League that season.

What I am getting at is that you would need to work out another way of deciding as to what are the best four performing leagues are, which cannot use the current coefficient system.

As a note, interesting to check in answer to this that England are in danger of being the fifth best performing country in Europe this season. No surprises to see Spain and Germany at the top.
That's what I mean Maccy, the coefficient would need to be based on one year (just like other sports), so the top 4 countries from the previous year in Europe would get their 4 league winners top seeded.

The 5 season coefficient doesn't work for me, simply because in 5 years a team's strength can change considerably and the CL which protects the top seeded teams and makes it fairly easy for them to get through to the knockout stages and thus keep their position in the top pot.

[Kano]

We're not just looking at City then, because they're a better side then us and ran Man U close recently (and won the league last season), they due to the seeding system found themselves in a much tougher group than the other two teams.

I agree the top Spanish and German sides are better than the English sides, but there's other factors that come into play in the CL that don't apply in the league.
no but i think it's reflective of where the league standard is in terms of our 'best' teams against the big boys from overseas. city found themselves where they are because of non qualification the season before and were found extremely wanting when faced with teams who finished in similar positions in other countries.

it's the reason why no one believes utd will get close the final and of course why we will most likely go out in this round. in a complete knock out competition i'd agree that you'd struggle to get a clear picture of the dis/parity between countries but the extend nature of this competition does tell you something.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That's what I mean Maccy, the coefficient would need to be based on one year (just like other sports), so the top 4 countries from the previous year in Europe would get their 4 league winners top seeded.

The 5 season coefficient doesn't work for me, simply because in 5 years a team's strength can change considerably and the CL which protects the top seeded teams and makes it fairly easy for them to get through to the knockout stages and thus keep their position in the top pot.

If I have got this right then, Man Utd could theoretically benefit by us doing really well in the Champions League and stay as a top seed, whereas for us our ranking could worsen? I don't see how that is particularly fair (nor is it likely but it's a scenario that could be played out by any inferior team in a league).

Five years is a measure of consistency across two competitions given equal weighting but look at what has occured this and last season by your own admission, rock hard groups. In your scenario is it more likely or less likely to get rock hard groups? If the latter then there isn't really much benefit for being a top seed anyway.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

We're not just looking at City then, because they're a better side then us and ran Man U close recently (and won the league last season), they due to the seeding system found themselves in a much tougher group than the other two teams.

I agree the top Spanish and German sides are better than the English sides, but there's other factors that come into play in the CL that don't apply in the league.

And there are other factors that work the other way round - in domestic leagues there are a greater concentration of weaker teams for instance. In the Champions League you face greater threats to your chances of winning it a lot sooner. In a league you have a greater chance of being able to recover from defeats, therefore should domestic leagues be given such a strong weighting or should it just be on the European competitions where the quality is further spread?

[Özim]

no but i think it's reflective of where the league standard is in terms of our 'best' teams against the big boys from overseas. city found themselves where they are because of non qualification the season before and were found extremely wanting when faced with teams who finished in similar positions in other countries.

it's the reason why no one believes utd will get close the final and of course why we will most likely go out in this round. in a complete knock out competition i'd agree that you'd struggle to get a clear picture of the dis/parity between countries but the extend nature of this competition does tell you something.
I agree the league isn't as strong as it once was, however City won the league and we came 4th (and are above us again this year) and yet somehow according the CL seedings were considered better, that's a strange system...they underperformed in the CL last year for sure, but they still have shown themselves superior to us.

[Özim]

And there are other factors that work the other way round - in domestic leagues there are a greater concentration of weaker teams for instance. In the Champions League you face greater threats to your chances of winning it a lot sooner. In a league you have a greater chance of being able to recover from defeats, therefore should domestic leagues be given such a strong weighting or should it just be on the European competitions where the quality is further spread?
Yes there are but there's less anxiety about the league games as you have time to recover from blips and because you play week in week out it's easier to erase a poor performance.

The league should get the greater weight IMO and when you combine this with the CL performance you should get a fairly accurate seeding system (remember the league winners from the best countries are already top seeded).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yes there are but there's less anxiety about the league games as you have time to recover from blips and because you play week in week out it's easier to erase a poor performance.

The league should get the greater weight IMO and when you combine this with the CL performance you should get a fairly accurate seeding system (remember the league winners from the best countries are already top seeded).

Well if there is less anxiety in the league, does that not mean it's a safer, calmer environment for players to thrive in? If so then I would give more weighting to the competition that adds that pressure on to you with a greater concentration.

If the league winners from the top countries are already top seeded on the whole then why bother fiddling with the system at all? Because Citeh got a bit unlucky?

[Özim]

Well if there is less anxiety in the league, does that not mean it's a safer, calmer environment for players to thrive in? If so then I would give more weighting to the competition that adds that pressure on to you with a greater concentration.

If the league winners from the top countries are already top seeded on the whole then why bother fiddling with the system at all? Because Citeh got a bit unlucky?
Since it's there's less anxiety teams can hit form over an extended period and show their quality which is sometimes hard to do in the CL.

They're not, City were in the 2nd/3rd pot which considering they come from one of the best leagues and are better than some teams in the top pot isn't really fair.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Since it's there's less anxiety teams can hit form over an extended period and show their quality which is sometimes hard to do in the CL.

They're not, City were in the 2nd/3rd pot which considering they come from one of the best leagues and are better than some teams in the top pot isn't really fair.

You just said
(remember the league winners from the best countries are already top seeded). However though I will ignore that given Dortmund and Juventus won their leagues and they are not top seeds, although I am sure they soon will be. Funny how getting through their groups didn't provide any problems though, clearly Borussia Dortmund learnt.

This seems rather backwards. You'd give more weighting to the competition that gives the best teams the chance to prove they're the best teams, when they play against a greater deal of opponents that are much weaker. If we do finish fourth or even third would you really trust that league as a reliable index of quality within it?

I could back a coeffient across the Europa League and Champions League over the previous season with some reservations but to give domestic leagues the greater weighting I think isn't a very good idea at all.

[Cripps_orig]

Don't think there is much wrong with the seeding system. To be seeded in Europe, you have to be good in Europe. City are a bit shit.

[Özim]

You just said However though I will ignore that given Dortmund and Juventus won their leagues and they are not top seeds, although I am sure they soon will be. Funny how getting through their groups didn't provide any problems though, clearly Borussia Dortmund learnt.

This seems rather backwards. You'd give more weighting to the competition that gives the best teams the chance to prove they're the best teams, when they play against a greater deal of opponents that are much weaker. If we do finish fourth or even third would you really trust that league as a reliable index of quality within it?

I could back a coeffient across the Europa League and Champions League over the previous season with some reservations but to give domestic leagues the greater weighting I think isn't a very good idea at all.
I think you might have misunderstood, let me break it down

- Countries are rated according to performance in Europe of all their clubs the previous season
- The top 4 countries have their league winners automatically placed in the pot of top seeds (along with the CL winner if this is a different team)
- The rest of the seeding is worked out according to performance in the league (you'll get more points if you're from a top performing league) and CL performance providing you got past the group stages.


When I said league winners are top seeded I meant in my suggested system (but the only ones that would automatically be in the top pot would be the 4 league winners of the 4 best performing countries)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ok then, Borussia Dortmund could outperform Bayern Munich in the Champions League this season, like they've outperformed them in the league for the previous two seasons but still be rated lower than them (like they will anyway) because they didn't win the Bundesliga for a third season in a row.

How can there be a 'top four' countries when it could change so dramatically over the course of one month in a season? Premier League could be No.3 now but No.5 in a month; does that mean the French league is stronger? Man City could end up with exactly the same group they got this season!

[Özim]

Ok then, Borussia Dortmund could outperform Bayern Munich in the Champions League this season, like they've outperformed them in the league for the previous two seasons but still be rated lower than them (like they will anyway) because they didn't win the Bundesliga for a third season in a row.

How can there be a 'top four' countries when it could change so dramatically over the course of one month in a season? Premier League could be No.3 now but No.5 in a month; does that mean the French league is stronger? Man City could end up with exactly the same group they got this season!
If Bayern win the league then yes they will be rated about Dortmund and rightly so.

Top 4 countries are based on a countries previous seasons performance so it doesn't change, if you're clubs do well in Europe (including Europa league), you'll be placed higher than if your countries clubs do poorly.

Seedings are done before the start of the competition and don't change throughout.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Why rightly so? Borussia Dortmund would've qualified for the Champions League by being league champions and outperformed Bayern Munich in that competition on the back of it. It doesn't seem fair that's forgotten about, especially when you've always maintained the Champions League should be mainly for the league winners.

I meant it changing with regards to 'as it stands' - in the current system there is about a point seperating third, fourth and fifth. I don't know how you'll work out the point system either to be honest, it's going to be extremely complicated. Like I already said, you can't use UEFA's current ranking on that, for obvious reasons.

[fakeyank]

http://www.chelseafc.com/news-article/article/3046360/title/chelsea-v-arsenal-latest

:cold:

[Özim]

Why rightly so? Borussia Dortmund would've qualified for the Champions League by being league champions and outperformed Bayern Munich in that competition on the back of it. It doesn't seem fair that's forgotten about, especially when you've always maintained the Champions League should be mainly for the league winners.

I meant it changing with regards to 'as it stands' - in the current system there is about a point seperating third, fourth and fifth. I don't know how you'll work out the point system either to be honest, it's going to be extremely complicated. Like I already said, you can't use UEFA's current ranking on that, for obvious reasons.
Why? Because they're not Champions of their country, in the old days of the European cup only the winners of the league qualified and that was perfectly fair.

Just because Dortmund had won the title the season before last it doesn't mean they should be seeded higher, Bayern would be champions of Germany and thus would be a top seed automatically (providing Germany was one of the 4 countries that performed best in Europe the season before).

I'd go back to the European cup format personally, but that's not going to happen.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Poldi and Oxocube are out from illness, we're unchanged from the team that played against Citeh.

[Marc Overmars]

Kos. :rose:

[GP]

Arsenal: Szczesny, Sagna, Mertesacker, Vermaelen, Gibbs, Coquelin, Wilshere, Diaby, Cazorla, Walcott, Giroud

[Marc Overmars]

Arsenal team: Szczesny, Sagna, Mertesacker, Vermaelen, Gibbs, Coquelin, Wilshere, Diaby, Cazorla, Walcott, Giroud

Torres starts for Chelsea and not Ba. :lol:

[GP]

Subs: Mannone, Koscielny, Jenkinson, Santos, Frimpong, Ramsey, Arshavin

[Özim]

Poldi and Oxocube are out from illness, we're unchanged from the team that played against Citeh.
AKA snowed in and too busy making snowmen.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ok we're not unchanged then. BBC. :doh:

[Marc Overmars]

Ok we're not unchanged then. BBC. :doh:

Unchanged from Swansealona I guess they meant.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ah yeah, it has changed now. Unless I made little bit cock-up.

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Ah yeah, it has changed now. Unless I made little bit cock-up.

I saw that too maccy

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ah good!

[KSE Comedy Club]

Were loosing this.

[GP]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BBDYp9yCcAAgmPz.jpg

[Marc Overmars]

Torres has a GHELcut. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's twat these twats! Time for some good news at this club. Get it done you fuckers.

[Marc Overmars]

No Big Man moment today, thankfully.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Were loosing this.
Agreed.

Loosening up and playing with freedom of expression is the key to winning.

[Xhaka Can’t]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BBDYp9yCcAAgmPz.jpg

:haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Chelsea: Cech, Azpilicueta, Cahill, Ivanovic, Cole, Ramires, Lampard, Oscar, Hazard, Mata, Torres.
Subs: Turnbull, Ferreira, Marin, Terry, Ba, Bertrand, Ake.

Referee: Martin Atkinson (W Yorkshire)

[Niall_Quinn]

Mr Arsenal is being interviewed now :bow:

[Letters]

Wilshere :loveblush:


Love this kid.

[GP]

Wilshere :loveblush:


Love this kid.

:jimmysavile:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Wilshere :loveblush:


Love this kid.

he's going to be the new tony adams isnt he? commited, passionate, and best of all a gooner. i cant see him ever leaving the club

[GP]

Mr Arsenal is being interviewed now :bow:

Ashley Cole?

[Marc Overmars]

he's going to be the new tony adams isnt he? commited, passionate, and best of all a gooner. i cant see him ever leaving the club

Give it a few years and he'll be sold for sure.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Mr Arsenal is being interviewed now :bow:

Feo?

[Niall_Quinn]

He's tied up for 5 and a half years, that's infinity at Arsenal so we can relax for a while.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Shit.

[Niall_Quinn]

Feo?

No, Mr Arsenal Will Do Until Something Better Arrives hasn't been interviewed so far. Perhaps they couldn't agree an appearance fee?

[Ollie the Optimist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyjeVOTzRbA

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Come on Arsenal. :bow:

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Torres was aiming for his chin when he shaved his head!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Honest Frank goes for glory early on.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

BFG takes Torres out. :bow:

[GP]

Great dive from Torres.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Giroud drags it wide! Gah.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Girous with a massive miss.

Nice play on from Theo it was.

[Marc Overmars]

What a chance FFS.

Stick to the headers Giroud.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just fuck of Giroud. Not good enough.

[Özim]

Giroud that was totally sh*t.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-0 Mata.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Dear lord!

[Xhaka Can’t]

JUST FUCK OFF

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Coquelin is down injured from that build-up.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fucking fucking typical. Wasteful at one end, fucked at the other in seconds. Just fuck off Giroud.

[Maestro]

Big Sexy needs Big Shooting for that miss ...fucking hell here we fucking go again

[Özim]

Mata 1-0

Well done Giroud.

[Letters]

:ilt:

[fakeyank]

The fuck :(

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Shocker of a challenge from Ramires there.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Sagna caught out of position again

[Marc Overmars]

Should be winning, now we're losing.

Typical. :rolleyes:

[Niall_Quinn]

The biggest threat to us is us. We do it to ourselves over and over again. Sickening.

[Maestro]

we should have been 1-0 up here, fucking shit from Giroud

[Özim]

Our defence is hopeless...I don't care what the stats say!

[Niall_Quinn]

Diaby FFS

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Cazorla smacks it, Cech tips it away.

[Özim]

Walcott awful pass to Sagna and we lose the ball.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why is theo taking corners? Anyone know?

[Özim]

Cazorla great shot, good save.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Another wasted corner... When was the last time we scored from one?

[Özim]

We must be losing because of the fans tbf.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Hazard shoots, Sznnany saves!

[Niall_Quinn]

Well done ches. shit defending again. Luckily hazard is a greedy fuck.

[Power n Glory]

We're timid!

[Özim]

Hazard brilliant play, does our whole defence.

[Niall_Quinn]

Defence won't be able to keep them out so we need to out score them. Come on then Walcott, lets have it.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Torres. :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

Sagna having a mare so far.

[fakeyank]

Why is Sagna always being caught out!!?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Defence won't be able to keep them out so we need to out score them. Come on then Walcott, lets have it.

To be fair, he played Giroud through for us to take the lead...

[Niall_Quinn]

Why is Sagna always being caught out!!?

He's lost his pace and also his confidence by the look of it. Used to be an asset, now a liability.

[Power n Glory]

Cazorla has lost it!

[Xhaka Can’t]

Commentator mentions that we've been top 4 every year under Wenger.

Any guesses on when the '8 years' gets mentioned?

[Niall_Quinn]

To be fair, he played Giroud through for us to take the lead...

That's what I mean, don't rely on Giroud who couldn't score in a brothel, Walcott will have to do it himself if he's up for it.

[Özim]

Hazard brilliant backheel, he's making our defence look like schoolboys :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pelanty to Chelsea. Booked. Diaby you berk.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Fucking defending leads to a pel.

[Power n Glory]

Implode!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

Yellow, should have been red. Lucky but we are fucked because Diaby is total utter shit and always has been.

[Özim]

Penalty Chelsea.

[fakeyank]

Going to be a cricket score!

[Marc Overmars]

Well done Diaby.

FFS.

All our doing, again.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 Honest Frank.

[Maestro]

fucking bullshit, fuck you diaby, fuck you wenger

....just fuck you

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Disastrous! Fucking fans scaring the shit out of our players!

Fuck off fans

[Özim]

Diaby gives the ball away, defence was awful Chesney fouls his man.

[Xhaka Can’t]

This isn't going as well as we might have hoped.

[GP]

That's never a penalty in a million fucking years.

Jesus christ.

[Letters]

Oh just fuck off. Why do we do this to ourselves?
Diaby dwells on it and we're suddenly in all kinds of trouble when we weren't under any pressure

:ilt:

[Özim]

2-0 SOOOOO EASY.

F*ck off Wenger!!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Why didn't any of the defenders try to help Sznananay out? Insane.

[Niall_Quinn]

Actually ref got it right. Two men back on cover.

Diaby is so awful it's worth bringing Ramsey on.

[GP]

Fucked hard by the ref on both goals. Utter bullshit.

[Power n Glory]

Sagna needs to be dropped.

[Maestro]

i'm off to take my meds, back 2nd half later ..can't stand watching this right now

[Xhaka Can’t]

Another wonderful corner.

[Kano]

this is going well.

another slow, sluggish start and look what happens.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Snow to get the match abandoned. :pray:

[Özim]

Actually ref got it right. Two men back on cover.

Diaby is so awful it's worth bringing Ramsey on.
Pretty much, really bad play by us and a penalty all day long.

[Power n Glory]

What the fuck is Sagna doing? He wasn't even chasing back after losing the ball. Absolute fucker!

[Kano]

What the fuck is Sagna doing? He wasn't even chasing back after losing the ball. Absolute fucker!
caught out for the first goal too.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Snow to get the match abandoned. :pray:

Not too much snow, we don't want an avalanche to kill our players.

[fakeyank]

Where is Podolski these days?

Why is Diaby playing games and keeping a player like Cathorla on the wings?

Why is Wenger still at Arsenal?

[Niall_Quinn]

Jenks on for Sagna. Ramsey on for Diaby, just do it and stop the bleeding

[Letters]

this is going well.

another slow, sluggish start and look what happens.
It wasn't that slow a start though. Giroud should have put us 1-0 up. He cocks it up, a minute later the ball's in our net.
The 2nd goal was just stupidity from Diaby. We do it to ourselves

:ilt:

[fakeyank]

an avalanche to kill our players.

:pray:

[Letters]

Oh good. A corner. We always score from those.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sagnas crossing, unbelievable a professional can be that inept.

[Özim]

We can't cope with Chelsea speedy counter attacks.

If we're not careful we might end up getting a spanking!

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Fudge packing Benitez telling the 4th official that Chez should have been sent off... It wasn't even a foul ffs.

[fakeyank]

Jenks on for Sagna. Ramsey on for Diaby, just do it and stop the bleeding

Ramsey on?! :faint:

I'd move Cathorla there and bring on Oxlade

[Niall_Quinn]

Walcott, brilliant waste of a corner again. Pathetic.

[Letters]

And another one right into the hands of the 'keeper.
'king stop that you *****!

[Xhaka Can’t]

OH FUCK THE FUCK OFF YOU FUCKING FUCKS!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Defending with so much fear.

[Kano]

It wasn't that slow a start though. Giroud should have put us 1-0 up. He cocks it up, a minute later the ball's in our net.
The 2nd goal was just stupidity from Diaby. We do it to ourselves

:ilt:
in general our approach has been too slow, as it has far too many times. like it was against swansea before we woke up. all the opposition have to do then is get behind the ball and we're done.

i didn't see chelsea losing three in a row at home but i hoped for a draw. well, that's fucked.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ramsey on?! :faint:

I'd move Cathorla there and bring on Oxlade

Ox and pods are out.

[Niall_Quinn]

Defending with so much fear.

It comes naturally, they don't even need to try. Merts a joke defender, so static.

[fakeyank]

Ox and pods are out.

No way! Really?

Might as well concede the game then!

[Özim]

Chelsea with an Arsenal style corner there.

[Kano]

No way! Really?

Might as well concede the game then!

gracefully, we already have.

it was the gentlemanly thing to do.

[Niall_Quinn]

When you have a hundred things going wrong at least try to correct one of them. Bring Jenks on so we can get a few decent crosses in.

[Özim]

It comes naturally, they don't even need to try. Merts a joke defender, so static.
The whole defence is a joke, we don't have one decent player in there...get rid and start again these guys are no hopers.

[Niall_Quinn]

gracefully, we already have.

it was the gentlemanly thing to do.

The arsenal way TM

[fakeyank]

Chelsea playing rings around our whole team :lol:

[Özim]

Gibbs may as well not be there, he's nowhere to be seen whenever they go forward down his side.

[Özim]

Simple ball across, Cole free in the area :rolleyes:

[Özil's Panoramic View]

The quality between the two teams is distinctively striking. Hazard and Mata are miles ahead of anything we have on offering.

Now a shockingly one sided game.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What is Sajma doing?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Sagna needs to be shot - hopefully not by Giroud.

[Bury Da Bwoy]

someone give bacary a breathalyzer test at half time

[Kano]

will wenger tell us we are little bit afraid to play away from home too?

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the simple stuff we can't do. Easy passes, basic defending. Lets chuck a few back heels in and start singing ole.

[Özim]

Should have sent them out wrapped up in heated cotton wool, they clearly don't fancy the cold today.

[leaf]

Does anyone remember a time when we used to match the likes of chelsea

[Özim]

The quality between the two teams is distinctively striking. Hazard and Mata are miles ahead of anything we have on offering.

Now a shockingly one sided game.
Totally agree, as I said in another thread Walcott is nothing compared to these two.

[Niall_Quinn]

Theo having to play the who,e 100 yards on the right. Sagna? Who knows?

[Newguy]

Sagna is fucking shit

[Xhaka Can’t]

Another cutting ball by Sagna - what a useless **** he is.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Giroud should've hit it first time.

[Power n Glory]

He needs to hit that first time with his right.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sagan at it again.

[Kano]

Totally agree, as I said in another thread Walcott is nothing compared to these two.
it's all his fault we're losing from what i can see.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Giroud should've hit it first time.

Been a while since they had a goal kick.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Sweet Jesus! Someone shoot Sagna ffs!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Theo offside. Gah.

[Özim]

it's all his fault we're losing from what i can see.
No it isn't but that's not the point, he's sh*t compared to those two players.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ramires. :haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Sagna again - take him off ffs!

[Power n Glory]

Doesn't beat his first man and jogging back. Get that fucker Sagna off.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sagna has not put a foot right today. Walcott always fucks the simple stuff up. We're terrible on the right.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Sagna is injured.

[Kano]

No it isn't but that's not the point, he's sh*t compared to those two players.
you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who compares to their eleven at the moment.

[Newguy]

Please be injured

[fakeyank]

Thank fuck! Hope he is out!

[Niall_Quinn]

Sagna has just bottled it now. Get him off,he doesn't want to be here.

[Xhaka Can’t]

What an embarrassment.

[PGFC]

Sagna's hurt, good, I hope he dies.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ivanovic gives us a corner.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

The commentator saying sagna injured is not what AW needs... What a mong :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Actually Ivanovic gave Chelsea the chance to attack.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Sagna has just bottled it now. Get him off,he doesn't want to be here.

I bet he wants his fucking money.

[Niall_Quinn]

Walcotts a waste of time. Why doesn't he do the only thing he can do, use his pace and run at them?

[Power n Glory]

Giroud needs to come off. Cahill has him in his pocket. He can't slip him even if a good ball is played through.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Theo offside again.

[Niall_Quinn]

Theo only a yard offside. Fuck.

[Özim]

I bet he wants his fucking money.
Gotta keep everyone on the same money to keep the spirit and togetherness going.

[Niall_Quinn]

Long time since I've seen us this badly outplayed. At least a couple of weeks.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Gotta keep everyone on the same money to keep the spirit and togetherness going.

They do have the same spirit and togetherness tbf.

[RomfordPele]

Cheap freekick

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh come on ref, why is it a foul when we do it but not when they do it?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Torres. :haha:

[Özim]

Giroud is a total waste of space and a sorry excuse for a striker IMO, misses crucial chances and seems to do precious little.

Cazorla on the other hand is supremely talented but when he doesn't fancy it doesn't get involved at all.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Torres :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Torres :haha: good enough to play for us?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Theo offside again. Fuck sake.

[Özim]

Torres with a free shot in the penalty area.

Awful zonal marking, thank f*ck it came to Torres or it would have been 3.

[Globalgunner]

Chelsea players must be thinking: Southampton played much better than this lot.....and their manager was sacked the next day.

[Niall_Quinn]

Chavs still have Ba, another player we didn't sign.

another terrible miss by Walcott but offside anyway.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Che 2-0 Ars HT

Men against boys

And we all know boys' feelings get easily hurt if not pet and pampered

Hate our awful fans :fury:

[Letters]

WALCOTT
STOP BEING OFF-SIDE.
STOP IT!
STOP IT, STOP IT, STOP IT!
YOU OVERPAID ****

:fury:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-0 HT.

:rose:

[Özim]

Coquelin great ball...Walcott offside but misses anyway.

Sell him he's sh*t.

[RomfordPele]

Embarrassing. How many times do we have to be embarrassed by this shower?

[Power n Glory]

We're in terrible shape!

[Özim]

Half time 2-0.

Totally outclassed.

[Marc Overmars]

Giroud with a dreadful miss.

Diaby wanting ages on the ball.

Sagan incapable of crossing a ball.

Same shit, different day.

[Letters]

Chelsea players must be thinking: Southampton played much better than this lot.....and their manager was sacked the next day.

Southampton were 2-0 down at HT too.

It's on :scarf:


:(

[Niall_Quinn]

Terrible terrible terrible. You sell RvP and buy Giroud, this is what you get.

Sagna a disgrace. Diaby and Merts joke players, pure clowns. Theo needs to learn how to pass a ball. Wenger a fucking tool for just watching that develop and changing nothing. Jack isolated in a pointless role. Chav defence under zero pressure and easily handling that lump Giroud.

[Mr. Lahey]

that was awful...Sagna, Giroud, Diaby, Walcott, Cazorla just garbage. Coquelin is not a starter and its obvious we dont practice any kind of defence. we were dominated from the first minute...2nd half should be interesting.

[PGFC]

That's it, I'm done watching, there are a million other things I can be wasting my time doing.

[Globalgunner]

We're in terrible shape!

No were not. This is the best squad Wengit has ever seen

[Marc Overmars]

We really lack any sort of bottle and always end up freezing in these big games.

[Power n Glory]

Unless there is an injury...Diaby will come off for Ramsey....70minutes! Anyone want to take that bet?

[Newguy]

Sagna off for Jenkinson

Cazorla off for Arshavin, why Cazorla is getting a starting place with the performances he's been putting in for the past 3 weeks is beyond me, but then i could say the same for Sagna.

[Özim]

No were not. This is the best squad Wengit has ever seen
Spot on, it's not their fault they can't perform due to the fans.

[Niall_Quinn]

We really lack any sort of bottle and always end up freezing in these big games.

All the contracts have been signed now. No reason for them to try.