How Good Is Wenger?

[Letters]

Gaah! He makes my head spin, he really does.

We've had a £9m net spend on transfers over the last 10 years, built a new stadium and paid off a lot of the debt, continually asset stripped and prioritised profit over ambition, bought a load of mediocre players and paid them far too much and yet...he's done it again. Top 4 trophy every single year. This year it really looked like it was game over but a brilliant run over the last couple of months and he's done it again. Top 4 secured. More points than last year, far fewer goals conceded and only 2 fewer league goals scored than last year despite selling the PL's best striker.

No trophies again of course and 8 trophyless years for a club of our stature isn't good enough. But to finish top 4 every year despite some of the money other clubs are throwing around to try and achieve it, it's pretty impressive.

Will we push on now some of the financial restraints have apparently been eased? Do we trust Wenger to make the right signings any more? Would someone else do better? Plenty of other managers would do worse.

:blink:

[WMUG]

Let his contract run out, if we make a decent push at a trophy next season then renew it short term, if we push on, then keep it going.

Obviously, if it's same old, even without the financial restrictions that apparently existed and have now been lifted, then he has no excuse.

[Marc Overmars]

He's very good, particularly when you see how much clubs below us have spent in order to have a crack at the top 4 trophy. I don't know how he does it, his nack of keeping our heads above water is very baffling.

I'd like to think we'll make a splash in the transfer market but I'll believe that when I see it.

I'm hoping next year will be his last because while he's great at what he does, I really don't think he can move us up a level anymore. The current side is probably the least Wenger-like side he's ever had, barely able to string a decent passage of play together. One thing he's always managed to do is find the right players to suit his style but he's arguably losing a grasp on that now. He's not very flexible with his squad either, it took our season reaching it's nadir for him to bring in players we'd be calling for for months.

I want a change because I want to believe in something again, while Wenget is here I struggle to comprehend us being anything more than 4th place trophy contenders, CL also rans, and suckers for tame cup exits.

[Letters]

I want a change because I want to believe in something again, while Wenget is here I struggle to comprehend us being anything more than 4th place trophy contenders, CL also rans, and suckers for tame cup exits.
I think that's a good point. Most of us don't believe he can deliver trophies any more. The 4th place trophy isn't just coveted by Arsenal, you saw the Spurs' fans reactions when they missed out yesterday (although that was in part because they finished below us again), but it's not enough. Not for a club like Arsenal.

For about 4 years now we've said "this is a big summer for Wenger" and every year we've been disappointed. We need a marquee signing. The squad needs it, the fans need it. We need some belief back, something we can get excited about.

PS: It's "knack", dammit!

[LDG]

Well, he's not a bumbling idiot, if that's what you're getting at.

I don't believe for one second he thinks he has the prettiest wife, and I don't think he's stupid enough to think we don't need a higher quality squad.

The question has always been, "What is really going on behind the scenes", as nobody can say for sure whether he is restricted, financially, or choses to operate that way.

As the lines are very blurred, I would avoid that question entirely and look at his managerial performance over the last four years, in terms of the players he actually has had at his disposal.

I don't believe he has gotten tha best out of the players he had (see Nasri, Fabregas, RVP etc etc) when we should have won the league. Poor tactics, poor man-management and pure stubborness cost us a great deal, and that should have spelled the end for him, on a purely football basis.

What the last 10 games has shown us, is that he can motivate and drill a team to play above the level they are.

I think now that he only has the one year left, he should be allowed to see it through, and if he goes the right way, by all means give him a new contract (should he want it).

I don't think anyone is fooled anymore, therefore, he has to go big. I'd put a few quid on Cesc coming home.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Unlike Ferguson the core problem with Wenger is that he really hasn't adjusted well to the influx of money into the PL and rise of the billionaire clubs. He's too stuck in his old ways and isn't flexible enough.

He has his faults: teams with a shit defence (apart from this one), wage system that is a joke that rewards too many mediocre players and doesn't pay top talent enough, too stubborn, too reactive and not proactive, doesn't analyse opponents weaknesses, thinks games can be won simply by us doing our "thing", bringing through players with weak mentalitys that collapse when the slightest bit of pressure is on them, relying on injury prone players, not replacing players, etc etc etc

But despite all that he's done well considering the only teams we've finished behind are two teams artificially there due to heavy outside investment and one because they have the best manager in the world and are a giant of a global football club. This despite spending little to no money on transfers (wages are a different matter) and building and almost fully paying of a new stadium ensuring us a steady stream of revenue for the foreseeable future.

Now that it's almost confirmed that we have a shedload of money coming our way with the new sponsorship deals, there shouldn't be any excuse not to spend money and with the three teams above undergoing managerial changes it'd be very interesting to see whether we can finally push on and perhaps return to our previous glory days. I think he's capable of it - I mean he's a very intelligent man, he's just been too stubborn to change his ethos. But our team this season has been different, they've actually been quite good defensively and that's the foundation of any title winning team. Sure they've been dire up front, but that's more then easily rectified with a couple of quality attacking signings. So perhaps, finally he's realised it's not the worst thing in the world to try out different ideas?



Still, I wouldn't mind seeing a change but only and only if we can get someone clearly better or potentially as good. The last thing anyone wants is to replace Wenger with someone terrible .... like an Allardyce or heck I remember when people were suggesting Owen Coyle.

[Grebbo]

If he was 10 years younger he'd have been Man Utd's fist choice replacement for Fergie.

[Munchies]

He's perhaps one of the only managers who could get us top 4 with this mediocre squad, its a combination of Tottenham bottling it and our team going on a title-winning team run which they deserve credit for.

Our defence has shored up with kicking out Vermaelen, a bold move which should have happened earlier. See him leaving in the summer.

Not to sugar coat anything, but we've not beaten United/Cheslea/Man City this season, and we are pretty far behind them, I know we're close to Chelsea but thats because they didn't have a stable management due to a **** owner. Thing with Chelsea, is at their core, they have word-class players who are able to get results either way.

I hope we actually strengthen this squad, we've been on these forums for so many years crying out for certain signings, like a CDM since Flamini left, but what have we had ? Song promoted then shipped out, Diaby breaking down again, Arteta playing in the role when its clear as day he can't do it. And then putting in Oxlade (who has been shit this season tbf) into the spot, in one of the biggest games of our season, we've needed someone in this spot since Flamini left, around 5 years ago ! .

With Wenger , he might go out and say we're going to strengthen, but that could be a ploy to get season tickets renewed, and then do fuck all till the end. We need to do alot of rebuilding this summer, getting rid of players who don't want to be here, like Sagna,Vermaelen,Squilachi,Denilson,Bendtner,Chamak h,Santos. Those are from the top of my head, but every squad area needs to be looked at.


http://hikiculture.net/download/file.php?avatar=434_1304452697.gif

[selassie]

He's a good manager, a very good manager...but as stated his "principles" and "pride" IMHO get in ther way of him pushing on and being the very best.

There is no doubting that when push comes to shove Arsene is able to push this team to the limit, our end of season run to achieve top 4 was very very good, a championship winning run TBF and you would be hard pushed to find any other manager in Europe let alone the League that could of got this team on a run like we have just had.

We do have the basis of a very good team IMHO, it most definitely needs upgrading in places and the squad on the whole needs upgrading. However, if Funds are available and Arsene/The Board become more pragmatic in there approach to improving the team and I mean improving the team PROPERLY then we have the basis of a sound future.

It's all "ifs and buts" and I remain very skeptical given our past history.

Edited to add: Arsene organised the team very well post Spurs, we geninuely look pretty solid and well drilled, this needs to remain and he needs to supliment this with top top quality additions. Essentially our offence needs to improve, as does Central Midfield.

[Power n Glory]

Credit to Wenger but I think Steve Bould should have stepped in years ago. There has been a massive improvement to the defence and we haven’t looked as solid and focussed like that in years. I put that down to Bould’s presence and advise. If we’d have defenced like this years ago whilst we had Fab and RVP, we’d have surely won something. We’ve got to build on this foundation. It was good to see Wenger making a call on Verm too. He had to be dropped from the squad.

The medical staff have improved as well. We haven’t had as many injuries but Wenger really needs to use the team better and stop risking half fit players. Playing Arteta was unnecessary and he did the same with Wilshere. He needs to avoid doing that because it’s more costly than it’s worth.

We have a massive opportunity next season and if Wenger can pull it off, he’ll get serious plaudits. It’s all about the execution now.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Wenger is good enough for 3rd/4th, which is good enough for his bosses.

[Ollie the Optimist]

5 consecutive away wins for hte first time since 2004. 2 goals conceded from open play since losing to spurs. 26 points of 30 when we needed it most.

wenger is a dam good manager, just look at his cv and what he has done for this club and it tells you that. to keep us top four every year when spending 50p has been a miracle. this summer is huge for him and he knows it, fergie gone, mancini gone, chelsea will have a new manager too, spurs have been beaten again ( :haha: ) he knows this is his time if there ever was one. look at hte way we played the last ten games, drilled confident and secure. no panicking from the defence, no stupid mistakes. he made some brave decisions, dropping chesney for fabbianski which worked wonders. he was ruthless with vermaelen, dropped him, he came back because of suspension and played well but straight to the bench.
there has been a change in wenger recently, just look at hte last ten games to see that, i think he knew fergie was going, and he knew if we could get top four that we could really push on. lets see what he does now but this summer will be an interesting one.


also spurs :pal:

[LDG]

Spirwarls :bow:

[GP]

Ollie is the best poster on here, tbh.

At least, since Charlie left.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

i have no fucking clue tbh.

swings and roundabouts. how the fuck we've managed to finish top 4 again is beyond me.

at the same time, steve bould has been our biggest signing this season. i dont think its a coincidence that our defence is suddenly looking good (bar some suicidal defending at times but it seems to be the norm in the premier league nowadays) now bould is on the coaching staff.

but i give wenger credit for dropping verm and chez, although it makes me wonder, was bould behind it? not because i want to constantly have a go at wenger but because it seems like a bit of a coincidence that we're seeing everything we should have been seeing happen when bould has been on the coaching staff. dropping players, defence tightening up, more shape in our team etc. but thats a debate for another day.

i want wenger gone because he needs to be held accountable for his conveyor belt of fuck ups that have led to our demise. but im also realistic in the fact that the board would never sack someone who has done so much for the club. one more season of him i can take, and i hope we bloody win something next season because we deserve it after nearly a decade of shite.

but i will give him credit for turning yet another season around and ending 5 points behind city, who have splashed a shitload.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger out

[Seymour Butts]

Gaah! He makes my head spin, he really does.

We've had a £9m net spend on transfers over the last 10 years, built a new stadium and paid off a lot of the debt, continually asset stripped and prioritised profit over ambition, bought a load of mediocre players and paid them far too much and yet...he's done it again. Top 4 trophy every single year. This year it really looked like it was game over but a brilliant run over the last couple of months and he's done it again. Top 4 secured. More points than last year, far fewer goals conceded and only 2 fewer league goals scored than last year despite selling the PL's best striker.

No trophies again of course and 8 trophyless years for a club of our stature isn't good enough. But to finish top 4 every year despite some of the money other clubs are throwing around to try and achieve it, it's pretty impressive.

Will we push on now some of the financial restraints have apparently been eased? Do we trust Wenger to make the right signings any more? Would someone else do better? Plenty of other managers would do worse.

:blink:

I am not sure there are many other managers that could have achieved the level of consitency and have delivered what he has to the club as a whole. He has changed the face of AFC in terms of ground, training, brand. Having said that he needs to change and adapt.

I think that next season will be absolutely key. He needs to stay true to his word and use the end of the season as a springboard, change his philosophy, sign some real quality and really mount a challenge. If he makes the right additions next year really could be the best chance we have of getting back to the top - Rafa, Mancini and Fergie all gone..............no better opportunity than that

[Globalgunner]

If you like your seasons here on to look exactly like the ones of the last 5 years. Then Wenger`s your man. Mind boggling purchases, unbelievable tactics, criminal substitutions. Insipid capitulations in the cups. Yep. Wenger it is. Good thing about Wenger is he will help the worlds population by exponentially increasing the suicide rate amongst Arsenal fans, so he is not completely useless.

[Marc Overmars]

I am not sure there are many other managers that could have achieved the level of consitency and have delivered what he has to the club as a whole. He has changed the face of AFC in terms of ground, training, brand. Having said that he needs to change and adapt.

I think that next season will be absolutely key. He needs to stay true to his word and use the end of the season as a springboard, change his philosophy, sign some real quality and really mount a challenge. If he makes the right additions next year really could be the best chance we have of getting back to the top - Rafa, Mancini and Fergie all gone..............no better opportunity than that

I do think we have a good platform for success but I'm not banking on unrest at other clubs for it to happen. United will always be mentally strong enough to compete, City will spend a truck load and changing managers has never stopped Chelsea outperforming us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger seems to have taken it upon himself to be Atlas holding up the globe that is Arsenal, and no doubt whilst he obviously buckles under the strain he hasn't dropped the ball so to speak.

The club make North Korea seem transparent and open, so it's hard to judge the man fully without getting a real sense of what goes on at the club. I think the money is there to spend in terms of transfer fees, i think the problem is that he knows he has to get rid of players off the wage bill before he can sign anyone....and 2013 a lot of player's contracts are up so that should help exponentially....my worry is that players like Bendtner and Chamakh are still in contract until 2014 and they are never going to lower their wage demands in order to play for a smaller club.
We can blame Wenger for that but even assuming he was solely responsible for contract negotiations (which i highly doubt) it's only endemic of the modern game.

[Globalgunner]

Socialism is not the norm in the modern game. It is a notion conjured upo solely in Wengers mind, where it is quite okay to piss other peoples hard earned down the drain while delivering the bare minimum in return

[Ollie the Optimist]

Arsenal 2010/11 season: With Cesc, Nasri; 68 pts. Last season: With RVP, Song; 70 pts. This season, with this squad: 73 pts #OneArseneWenger


Just saw this on twitter. Didn't realise we had improved each year with a worse squad the the year before

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Socialism is not the norm in the modern game. It is a notion conjured upo solely in Wengers mind, where it is quite okay to piss other peoples hard earned down the drain while delivering the bare minimum in return

What's socialism got to do with the wage bill, the state of the wage bill is quite the opposite of socialism it shows the worst excesses of capitalism.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Just saw this on twitter. Didn't realise we had improved each year with a worse squad the the year before

It's all relative though....the points total is largely determined by the other teams around you.....when there is only ten points between 8th and 17th and then a gap of 12 points between 7th and 8th it doesn't speak highly for the quality of the league.

[Ollie the Optimist]

It's all relative though....the points total is largely determined by the other teams around you.....when there is only ten points between 8th and 17th and then a gap of 12 points between 7th and 8th it doesn't speak highly for the quality of the league.


It's not relative at all. He gets more points with worse squad each year. That's impressive

[Power n Glory]

It's not relative at all. He gets more points with worse squad each year. That's impressive

It goes to show that we've been top heavy for too long and the defence has always been a problem area. We had to grind out a lot of 1 nil results and hang on by a goal advantage. In previous years we'd buckle during injury time and we'd have lost if we're not up by 2 or 3 goals.

If it wasn't for the defence, we'd have been in serious trouble this year and after the Spurs debacle we needed to refocus and get the defence organised. It was neglected for far too long and the sort of mistakes we saw this year were common regardless of personnel. Impressive from Wenger but I also think he's working closely with Bould and their ironing things out.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's not relative at all. He gets more points with worse squad each year. That's impressive

My point being is that if you look at the teams in the premier league this season far fewer of them have been able to get a big scalp than in previous seasons. If you look at the sides in the top 5, they would go to teams outside the top 7 expecting to get all three points and more often than not they did.
We gained 10 away wins in the league, half of which came against in the last ten games most of which were teams in the lower half of the table....don't get me wrong i am not trying to belittle what Wenger has acheived with the average squad (without doubt the worst since he became manager) but these things need to be looked at in context.

[Marc Overmars]

A 5 point increase in 2 seasons is minimal improvement at best and we also finished a position lower this season. Taking into account our performance in other competitions over that time as well, I'm not sure I'd class anything we've done overall as an improvement.

What it is, is pure stagnation. However it does show Wenget is very good at getting his squad to be at a certain level despite losing his key men.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's not relative at all. He gets more points with worse squad each year. That's impressive

A league table is by definition, relative.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

I wonder if he's rated higher by opposition fans than he is by many Arsenal fans. If this place is anything to go by. Which is probably quite foolish.

[Marc Overmars]

I wonder if he's rated higher by opposition fans than he is by many Arsenal fans. If this place is anything to go by. Which is probably quite foolish.

How do you rate him?

All my mates who are rival fans love him, although I can't work out whether that's because they genuinely rate the work he does or that we don't compete for anything.

[GP]

As a great woman once said 'You don't know what you've got till it's gone'

[Kano]

opposition fans think he does a great job getting us into the top four every season but that is mostly fans of those outside of the top four. they also bang on about the stadium/money etc as the main factor without realising the massive mismanagement of our squad for quite a while that has ensured wenger damages our chances of success in any competition just as much as any factor outside of his control. for fans of those in it, they think this is the best he can achieve nowadays - and they're not wrong.

he's a very good manager, of course he is because no fool can place a team as the 3/4 highest in the country every season. but if we want better, then we have to freshen up the management side with new ideas.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I wonder if he's rated higher by opposition fans than he is by many Arsenal fans. If this place is anything to go by. Which is probably quite foolish.

Is Brendan Rodgers higher rated by Liverpool fans than he is by everyone else?....we think he's s**t

[LDG]

:haha:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

How do you rate him?

All my mates who are rival fans love him, although I can't work out whether that's because they genuinely rate the work he does or that we don't compete for anything.
Well short answer yes, long answer is tl;dr.

Well as far as consistently getting top 4 goes, it's pretty miraculous, considering the whole stadium thing, something clubs like us and Spurs still have to go through. It probably shouldn't be, but right now it is an achievement in of itself. To do that and still maintain a relative level is incredible, and probably won't be appreciated until he's gone. Especially if it turns out the grass isn't greener without him. Not to mention how he's done it. And whilst losing key players can fairly be put down to him, he has somehow managed to replace them enough to scrape by. We sold Alonso and completely fell apart. Wenger has done it time and again. He's not what he was, and don't think he ever will be, but even then he's still better than most. And frankly, you were spoilt rotten pre-2005, which probably makes it even harder.

But then at the same time I can appreciate the stagnation, bottling it at keys times and general malaise around the club would eat away, especially after 8 years of it. There have been numerous times where you've rightly felt you could kick on and win something or make a better fight for it and yet it's never quite happened. I might even be in the "it's probably time to go" camp since it's by no means inhabited by swivel-eyed loons. As far as the personal disrespect goes, though a lot of it is obviously tongue in cheek, that's too far. And the idea that he is happy with how things are and doesn't care is just ridiculous. Whether it's down to his own mismanagement that you haven't taken that extra step forward, and it'd be fair to say that's a part of it, he's still kept you at a certain level. A level that is ludicrously hard to get to, nevermind to stay there. And again, to accept he has moulded a weak squad, in an odd way it's even more of an achievement to better those with an apprently good squad and who have spent a truck load to do it. And yes, it is fans not in the top 4 who think it. But by definition these are the best 4 teams in the country, and for the last decade or so that has meant being in the top dozen in Europe. And to be in a position where 80-odd other clubs would bite your hand off for, well that's kinda the point. Winning the odd tin pot is nice, but it wears off pretty quickly.

I guess it depends on whether he was hamstrung by your board or through sheer stubbornness. I get the feeling it's a little of both. You can't have the massive change in infrastructure without it eating away a massive chunk of revenue, especially when your sponsorship deals have been pretty pitiful. I think I'm right in saying the stadium has all-but been paid off and the Emirates deals are coming to an end, as far as the business goes there is an incredible amount of potential money to be milked from it, United-style. If this is the case then there are no excuses not to push on. I don't know if he's the man to take you further, I think he probably will leave next summer, but then I don't think anyone else could have kept you where you are now in the same way. Something would have had to give.

He helped move football on and got left behind by it. And he was completely blown away with the influx of oil money. But when you look at other clubs, including mine, and you see how it can be fucked up so quickly then he's done a fantastic job for a long time. A level below what you came to expect from him pre-2005, but levels above the vast majority of clubs Europe-wide. Even looking at Spurs, talented manager, decent squad, decent resources, a monkey playing out of his banana skin and they still finished below you.

As for Rodgers, that was my point. Opposition fans denigrate opposition managers and usually fans swear blind by their manager, yet in this case it's probably the opposite.

This is too waffly now but I can't be fucked to go back through it.

[GP]

Awesome post.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Awesome post.

+1.

Some very sound and sensible arguments.


Gave me a good laugh as well with this bit:

"a monkey playing out of his banana skin and they still finished below you." :haha:

[Cripps_orig]

He has plenty of faults. His lack of desire to improve is arguably the biggest one.

Couldn't care less what the boards targets are. He himself should want to do better and he fails.

What he doesn't fail at is doing the bare minimum but for most fans, even that isn't enough.

For the resources he has available, he has done a piss poor job of using them.

All of us would accept not winning a trophy as long as we tried to win one. We don't.

[Edinburgh Gooner]

+1.

Some very sound and sensible arguments.


Gave me a good laugh as well with this bit:

"a monkey playing out of his banana skin and they still finished below you." :haha:


I just spat coffee everywhere when i read that bit.

[Master Splinter]

Sinclair Is Boss is the best poster on here, tbh.

At least, since Mr.Singh was unfairly thrown out left.

[LDG]

Well short answer yes, long answer is tl;dr.

Well as far as consistently getting top 4 goes, it's pretty miraculous, considering the whole stadium thing, something clubs like us and Spurs still have to go through. It probably shouldn't be, but right now it is an achievement in of itself. To do that and still maintain a relative level is incredible, and probably won't be appreciated until he's gone. Especially if it turns out the grass isn't greener without him. Not to mention how he's done it. And whilst losing key players can fairly be put down to him, he has somehow managed to replace them enough to scrape by. We sold Alonso and completely fell apart. Wenger has done it time and again. He's not what he was, and don't think he ever will be, but even then he's still better than most. And frankly, you were spoilt rotten pre-2005, which probably makes it even harder.

But then at the same time I can appreciate the stagnation, bottling it at keys times and general malaise around the club would eat away, especially after 8 years of it. There have been numerous times where you've rightly felt you could kick on and win something or make a better fight for it and yet it's never quite happened. I might even be in the "it's probably time to go" camp since it's by no means inhabited by swivel-eyed loons. As far as the personal disrespect goes, though a lot of it is obviously tongue in cheek, that's too far. And the idea that he is happy with how things are and doesn't care is just ridiculous. Whether it's down to his own mismanagement that you haven't taken that extra step forward, and it'd be fair to say that's a part of it, he's still kept you at a certain level. A level that is ludicrously hard to get to, nevermind to stay there. And again, to accept he has moulded a weak squad, in an odd way it's even more of an achievement to better those with an apprently good squad and who have spent a truck load to do it. And yes, it is fans not in the top 4 who think it. But by definition these are the best 4 teams in the country, and for the last decade or so that has meant being in the top dozen in Europe. And to be in a position where 80-odd other clubs would bite your hand off for, well that's kinda the point. Winning the odd tin pot is nice, but it wears off pretty quickly.

I guess it depends on whether he was hamstrung by your board or through sheer stubbornness. I get the feeling it's a little of both. You can't have the massive change in infrastructure without it eating away a massive chunk of revenue, especially when your sponsorship deals have been pretty pitiful. I think I'm right in saying the stadium has all-but been paid off and the Emirates deals are coming to an end, as far as the business goes there is an incredible amount of potential money to be milked from it, United-style. If this is the case then there are no excuses not to push on. I don't know if he's the man to take you further, I think he probably will leave next summer, but then I don't think anyone else could have kept you where you are now in the same way. Something would have had to give.

He helped move football on and got left behind by it. And he was completely blown away with the influx of oil money. But when you look at other clubs, including mine, and you see how it can be fucked up so quickly then he's done a fantastic job for a long time. A level below what you came to expect from him pre-2005, but levels above the vast majority of clubs Europe-wide. Even looking at Spurs, talented manager, decent squad, decent resources, a monkey playing out of his banana skin and they still finished below you.

As for Rodgers, that was my point. Opposition fans denigrate opposition managers and usually fans swear blind by their manager, yet in this case it's probably the opposite.

This is too waffly now but I can't be fucked to go back through it.

Top post.