Is "Chav" an offensive term?

[Joker]

There was a piece on the BBC's online magazine a few days ago about the word "chav", its origins, its implications and why it's controversial.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-13626046

What do you think about the usage of the word? Is it just harmless fun, or is there something more sinister in it, a way for the middle classes to demonise the "feckless" working classes, with suggestions that their plight is all their own making, and not the result of socioeconomic factors beyond their control?

Of course the biggest example of "chav bashing" was in Little Britain. It does stick in the throat a bit that the two writers of the programme both went to private schools, and there is evidence that the term has been used to fulfil a wider political role, to take attention away from the significant economic inequalities that have actually increased in the last twenty years, and to claim that it's the working class who are to blame for their predicament, and it's their laziness that has resulted in their deprivation.

[The Wengerbabies]

Chav's not acceptable but toff is I presume?

[Joker]

Chav's not acceptable but toff is I presume?

In many ways no it shouldn't be, because people don't choose into what family they are born in, or the privileged circumstances of their upbringing. If they go to private school, it's because their parents sent them there, not because they chose to. So we should be criticising the system of private education rather than the people who have benefited from that system itself.

However, it's less offensive than a campaign to demonise the least well off in society IMO, because toff is aimed at the powerful, and while I wouldn't use the term, its usage is in some ways understandable at people angry at the entrenched inequalities that we see in this country.

[Chrissie]

In many ways no it shouldn't be, because people don't choose into what family they are born in, or the privileged circumstances of their upbringing. If they go to private school, it's because their parents sent them there, not because they chose to. So we should be criticising the system of private education rather than the people who have benefited from that system itself.

However, it's less offensive than a campaign to demonise the least well off in society IMO, because toff is aimed at the powerful, and while I wouldn't use the term, its usage is in some ways understandable at people angry at the entrenched inequalities that we see in this country.

Chav has no relation to upbringing in my opinion. It refers to the way a person chooses to conduct themselves. Everyone has choices.

[The Wengerbabies]

However, it's less offensive than a campaign to demonise the least well off in society IMO, because toff is aimed at the powerful, and while I wouldn't use the term, its usage is in some ways understandable at people angry at the entrenched inequalities that we see in this country.

What about people angry at the way chavs sponging off taxpayers?

Your double standards are laughable tbh.

But back on topic, I think there are more important things to worry about then whether a word upsets the hyper-sensitive.

[Joker]

What about people angry at the way chavs sponging off taxpayers?

Your double standards are laughable tbh.

But back on topic, I think there are more important things to worry about then whether a word upsets the hyper-sensitive.

The problem of benefit fraud (which is I'm assuming part of what you mean when you say "sponging") is nowhere near as big a problem as the right wing media make out. There are significant checks especially with respect to unemployment insurance or JSA, making sure that individuals are actively looking for a job before they receive payments. See this:


Perhaps Iain Duncan Smith and his DWP spinners would benefit from some context. The £1.1 billion cost of fraud (a modest 0.7% of the total benefits spend) averages out to £59 across 18.5 million claimants.* In contrast, MPs were ordered to pay back £1.2 million in the wake of Thomas Legg’s inquiry into expenses, an average of £1,858 for the 646 members of the Commons.

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/05/mps-expenses-vs-benefit-fraud/

http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/benefit_fraud_vs_expenses1.jpg

[Letters]

Chav has no relation to upbringing in my opinion. It refers to the way a person chooses to conduct themselves. Everyone has choices.

Innit.

[Chrissie]

Innit.

Lolz

[MissHandbag]

The problem of benefit fraud (which is I'm assuming part of what you mean when you say "sponging") is nowhere near as big a problem as the right wing media make out. There are significant checks especially with respect to unemployment insurance or JSA, making sure that individuals are actively looking for a job before they receive payments. See this:



http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/05/mps-expenses-vs-benefit-fraud/

http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/benefit_fraud_vs_expenses1.jpg


Good point about the MP expenses but doesn't negate the fact there are a lot of 'Chav's sponging - I should know, I live on Chav street.

Recently whilst sitting on my patio (on a day off, not just chavving about) I over heard my next door neigbour bemoaning to another spongy neigbour how he had lost his job. Then listened to chavvy explain exactly how to claim benefits instead of working...then listened to his sister join in with tips. Their Mum is on benefits for supposedly being agaraphobic yet is the chair person of our housing co-op and travels at least once a year to a 2 day conference.

PS - yes I did poke my head over the garden fence and remind them how I'm paying to keep them in benefits - they didn't like it much.

[Nozza!]

Oi, mediocre Mods, I think it is offensive, so add it to the sweary filter. Please change "Chav" to "Burberry Ape"...

[dazthegooner]

Good point about the MP expenses but doesn't negate the fact there are a lot of 'Chav's sponging - I should know, I live on Chav street.

Recently whilst sitting on my patio (on a day off, not just chavving about) I over heard my next door neigbour bemoaning to another spongy neigbour how he had lost his job. Then listened to chavvy explain exactly how to claim benefits instead of working...then listened to his sister join in with tips. Their Mum is on benefits for supposedly being agaraphobic yet is the chair person of our housing co-op and travels at least once a year to a 2 day conference.

PS - yes I did poke my head over the garden fence and remind them how I'm paying to keep them in benefits - they didn't like it much.

Maybe they just think your a nosey bastard... ;)

[Chrissie]

Good point about the MP expenses but doesn't negate the fact there are a lot of 'Chav's sponging - I should know, I live on Chav street.

Recently whilst sitting on my patio (on a day off, not just chavving about) I over heard my next door neigbour bemoaning to another spongy neigbour how he had lost his job. Then listened to chavvy explain exactly how to claim benefits instead of working...then listened to his sister join in with tips. Their Mum is on benefits for supposedly being agaraphobic yet is the chair person of our housing co-op and travels at least once a year to a 2 day conference.

PS - yes I did poke my head over the garden fence and remind them how I'm paying to keep them in benefits - they didn't like it much.

Ha! So the label of chavs is well deserved! As I said people have choices.

[MissHandbag]

Maybe they just think your a nosey bastard... ;)

Might sound chavvy but 'bovvered!'

[dazthegooner]

Might sound chavvy but 'bovvered!'

Nah probably not :)

[V-Pig]

There's that book published recently by Owen Jones called "Chavs: The Demonisation of the Working Class".

I can see where the argument will lead, but I agree with Chrissie. When I call people "scum" or "chavtastic wankscum" or "chav", I refer to their behaviour, not their background.

---

Also, on clothes:
If it's been established that the chav-scum dress in a certain way, someone who dresses like them isn't necessarily scum themselves, but they're still choosing to associate themselves with the scum by dressing the same. They should be more aware of it. If every yobby cunt out there was wearing something, surely you'd wear something different.

[Marc Overmars]

Chav has no relation to upbringing in my opinion. It refers to the way a person chooses to conduct themselves. Everyone has choices.

Spot on.

[Letters]

The problem of benefit fraud (which is I'm assuming part of what you mean when you say "sponging") is nowhere near as big a problem as the right wing media make out. There are significant checks especially with respect to unemployment insurance or JSA, making sure that individuals are actively looking for a job before they receive payments. See this:



http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/05/mps-expenses-vs-benefit-fraud/

http://politicalscrapbook.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/benefit_fraud_vs_expenses1.jpg

Hmm. Thing is
1) Two wrongs don't make a right and
2) There are 650 MPs, how many menefit fraudsters are there?

[Chrissie]

There's that book published recently by Owen Jones called "Chavs: The Demonisation of the Working Class".

I can see where the argument will lead, but I agree with Chrissie. When I call people "scum" or "chavtastic wankscum" or "chav", I refer to their behaviour, not their background.

---

Also, on clothes:
If it's been established that the chav-scum dress in a certain way, someone who dresses like them isn't necessarily scum themselves, but they're still choosing to associate themselves with the scum by dressing the same. They should be more aware of it. If every yobby cunt out there was wearing something, surely you'd wear something different.

Chav! Lmao

[V-Pig]

Hmm. Thing is
1) Two wrongs don't make a right and
2) There are 650 MPs, how many menefit fraudsters are there?

Tax avoidance is worth 100 times what benefit fraud is. People who get angry at fraudsters should be much, much angrier at the wealthy elite not paying their taxes.

[The Wengerbabies]

Tax avoidance is worth 100 times what benefit fraud is. People who get angry at fraudsters should be much, much angrier at the wealthy elite not paying their taxes.
Nothing wrong with tax avoidance.

[Letters]

Tax avoidance is worth 100 times what benefit fraud is. People who get angry at fraudsters should be much, much angrier at the wealthy elite not paying their taxes.

Do you mean legal tax avoidance?
If so then while morally dubious if the loopholes exist then people are going to exploit them.
There's a difference between that and downright fraud, which I'm sure some tax avoidance is.

[The Wengerbabies]

Do you mean legal tax avoidance?
If so then while morally dubious if the loopholes exist then people are going to exploit them.
There's a difference between that and downright fraud, which I'm sure some tax avoidance is.
Tax avoidance is fine (not to mention perfectly legal) tax evasion is not.

[V-Pig]

That's just corporate tax avoidance, apparently.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/06/welfare-reform-employment

Not sure if that's better or worse. That'll be companies like Boots and Vodafone I guess.

[Letters]

That's just corporate tax avoidance, apparently.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/06/welfare-reform-employment

Not sure if that's better or worse. That'll be companies like Boots and Vodafone I guess.

That article is complete bullshit.
I couldn't be arsed reading most of it and I realise that weakens my case in rubbishing it but the entire premise is that it's people legitimately claiming disability or other benefits who are the target of people's annoyance.
And it isn't.
It's people who fraudulently claim or people who sit on benefits as a lifestyle choice. And while I agree that the press exaggerate how common that is, it irritates me far more than corporations using loopholes to avoid tax legally.
If there are loopholes which allow companies to do that then they should be closed but while they're there then they will be used and more fool the government for leaving those loopholes open.

[Letters]

Did just read the rest of it, I was nearly at the end of it anyway.
Like I said, the entire thing is built on a false premise.

[V-Pig]

Yeah, I don't subscribe to many of her views. I only linked to it for that stat.

The point is that benefit fraudster are such a small minority of claimants, and that if people are purely interested in money, they should be more agitated about the govt allowing tax avoidance. Maybe it's legal, but it shouldn't be. I hate the companies for doing it, although I realise that it makes economic sense, so it's up to the govt to step up and do something because we're being shafted out of money.

I'd still like to see benefit fraudsters suitably punished too, of course.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Hmm. Thing is
1) Two wrongs don't make a right and
2) There are 650 MPs, how many menefit fraudsters are there?

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it highlights the hypocracy of those demonising benefit claimants. But if we were to prioritise the tackling of fraud carried out in terms of materiality and directed the appropriate resources to it, we'd gain a lot more from tackling the tax evasion of the richest people in society.

[Toronto Gooner]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it highlights the hypocracy of those demonising benefit claimants. But if we were to prioritise the tackling of fraud carried out in terms of materiality and directed the appropriate resources to it, we'd gain a lot more from tackling the tax evasion of the richest people in society.
Absolutely correct, GB. My mother used to be a tax officer with the Inland Revenue, and everyone there knew that the overall tax rates could be dropped substantially if everyone paid their proper taxes. However, it is a classic example of the Prisoner's Dilemma from game theory. It is really interesting to view the difference in the words used to describe the two actions: Welfare fraud and tax evasion. In both situations, the government (and ultimately the tax payer) is having money stolen. But only in the former case is it considered a crime. In the latter, it is accepted to be good tax payer practice.

Going back to the term "chav", it seems to me, having read the comments here, that the term has morphed into a much broader concept. I always thought that it was a derogatory term applied to people from the working/chattering/lower class who by dint of having money pretended to be "higher class" by frequenting the higher classes establishments whilst still retaining the mentality, mannerisms and accent of their "upbringing".

[Letters]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it highlights the hypocracy of those demonising benefit claimants. But if we were to prioritise the tackling of fraud carried out in terms of materiality and directed the appropriate resources to it, we'd gain a lot more from tackling the tax evasion of the richest people in society.

I'm not sure there's any hypocricy. People were up in arms about MP's expenses too.
And, again, it's simplistic to say it's benefit claiments who are being demonised, it's people claiming fraudulently and people who claim as a lifestyle choice as opposed to people genuinely seeking work or unable to work.

Obviously tax evasion should be tackled across the board too. Tax avoidance should be tackled by closing loopholes which let it go on.

[Chrissie]

Two wrongs don't make a right, but it highlights the hypocracy of those demonising benefit claimants. But if we were to prioritise the tackling of fraud carried out in terms of materiality and directed the appropriate resources to it, we'd gain a lot more from tackling the tax evasion of the richest people in society.

Yes. I'm not saying the wrong people are targeted but it should be tackled on all levels as you rightly highlighted.

[Letters]

It is really interesting to view the difference in the words used to describe the two actions: Welfare fraud and tax evasion. In both situations, the government (and ultimately the tax payer) is having money stolen. But only in the former case is it considered a crime. In the latter, it is accepted to be good tax payer practice.

Isn't that because in the former case it IS a crime and in the latter it is exploiting a loophole legally?
Loopholes should be closed to stop that going on of course but while it's legal you can't really blame people for doing it if they can.

[V-Pig]

Absolutely correct, GB. My mother used to be a tax officer with the Inland Revenue, and everyone there knew that the overall tax rates could be dropped substantially if everyone paid their proper taxes. However, it is a classic example of the Prisoner's Dilemma from game theory. It is really interesting to view the difference in the words used to describe the two actions: Welfare fraud and tax evasion. In both situations, the government (and ultimately the tax payer) is having money stolen. But only in the former case is it considered a crime. In the latter, it is accepted to be good tax payer practice.

Going back to the term "chav", it seems to me, having read the comments here, that the term has morphed into a much broader concept. I always thought that it was a derogatory term applied to people from the working/chattering/lower class who by dint of having money pretended to be "higher class" by frequenting the higher classes establishments whilst still retaining the mentality, mannerisms and accent of their "upbringing".

I think your definition is a newer one, "working class done good" sort of thing.

I think, originally, chav or townie or scally or whatever was used, was just meant as the scum who wore certain clothes and behaved in certain ways.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I'm not sure there's any hypocricy. People were up in arms about MP's expenses too.
And, again, it's simplistic to say it's benefit claiments who are being demonised, it's people claiming fraudulently and people who claim as a lifestyle choice as opposed to people genuinely seeking work or unable to work.

Obviously tax evasion should be tackled across the board too. Tax avoidance should be tackled by closing loopholes which let it go on.

I meant the hypocracy of the MPs.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Isn't that because in the former case it IS a crime and in the latter it is exploiting a loophole legally?
Loopholes should be closed to stop that going on of course but while it's legal you can't really blame people for doing it if they can.

The latter is a crime.

Avoidance - exploiting loopholes and/or making full use of allowances is not.

[Chrissie]

Isn't that because in the former case it IS a crime and in the latter it is exploiting a loophole legally?
Loopholes should be closed to stop that going on of course but while it's legal you can't really blame people for doing it if they can.

Are you being serious?? You can't blame them for doing it cos it's a loophole. Yes you can blame them, it's called personal consience. It's wrong. Love to know where your religious beliefs slot into this! lol

[Toronto Gooner]

Isn't that because in the former case it IS a crime and in the latter it is exploiting a loophole legally?
Loopholes should be closed to stop that going on of course but while it's legal you can't really blame people for doing it if they can.
While some tax evasion can involve loopholes, I think that lot of it involves plain old fraud such as payment in cash, etc.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Are you being serious?? You can't blame them for doing it cos it's a loophole. Yes you can blame them, it's called personal consience. It's wrong. Love to know where your religious beliefs slot into this! lol

Not saying this about Letters, but I find the most vociferous Christians to be the least Christian people to walk the earth.

[Chrissie]

Not saying this about Letters, but I find the most vociferous Christians to be the least Christian people to walk the earth.

You can have a hug even if you don't want one LOL!

[Xhaka Can’t]

You can have a hug even if you don't want one LOL!

:hug:

[Letters]

While some tax evasion can involve loopholes, I think that lot of it involves plain old fraud such as payment in cash, etc.

Yes, sorry. I mixed up evasion with avoidance.

[Toronto Gooner]

Not saying this about Letters, but I find the most vociferous Christians to be the least Christian people to walk the earth.
Amen to that.:lol:

[GP]

Yes, sorry. I mixed up evasion with avoidance.

Avoision?

[Letters]

Avoision?

So's your face <_<

[Letters]

Are you being serious?? You can't blame them for doing it cos it's a loophole. Yes you can blame them, it's called personal consience. It's wrong. Love to know where your religious beliefs slot into this! lol

Not sure what my beliefs have to do with anything. If we're talking 'cash in hand' to avoid tax then of course that's not right or legal.
If by putting money in a certain account you can declare everything and pay less tax then I don't see a whole load wrong with that.
Depends what we're talking about.

[Chrissie]

Not sure what my beliefs have to do with anything. If we're talking 'cash in hand' to avoid tax then of course that's not right or legal.
If by putting money in a certain account you can declare everything and pay less tax then I don't see a whole load wrong with that.
Depends what we're talking about.

It's simple. Above board or a loophole? As a christian I know what i would do. After all, you are the one who talks about your religious beliefs on here. *shrugs*

[Jofnn]

Going back to the term "Chav"... which (rightly or wrongly) is an acronym for "Council Housed And Violent". Although the term is very stereotypical, you would only usually refer that particular term to someone you felt was like that... i.e. the tracksuit, joint, can of tennants export, tipped cap & a high pitched voice screaming for a fight! Calling them the name can be seen as a badge of honour, like the ASBO! In that sense, I wouldn't say it's offensive!

Also Chav doesn't refer to a person's financial status (as such) therefore most of the conversation about tax evasion/avoidance is pretty irrelevant... and IMHO is another topic in itself! That said, it angers me a hell of a lot that I'm out working all these hours and paying my taxes month in month out... and there's people out there, who CAN work, who are sitting on their arses all day doing naff all and claiming benefits... because they can! The people who have got used to popping down the job center every couple of weeks to get their dole money... maybe even pop another kid or two out so that they can get more!

[Marc Overmars]

My own notion of a chav has always been about looks and behaviour. ie, the scum who have nothing better to do than hang outside shops on their BMX's, either side of the entrance, wearing caps, beaten up tracksuits, sporting a fag tucked above their ear, and generally being loud and obnoxious.

[Young Guns 11]

Chav has no relation to upbringing in my opinion. It refers to the way a person chooses to conduct themselves. Everyone has choices.

Really?

It's my opinion that a kids upbringing is of the utmost importance to how they act.

[dazthegooner]

Really?

It's my opinion that a kids upbringing is of the utmost importance to how they act.

Sometimes doesn't always work that way.

[Young Guns 11]

Yeah I'm sure, but of the kids that went to my primary school with me, the ones who ended up down the road of being 'chavish' and layabouts were the ones who, imo, had the sort of parents who just didn't seem to give a shit. I'm sure it's not always like that, some kids are just bad I guess no matter how much the parents care. But I still think the parents are the biggest factor.

[Sirjackofwilshere]

http://direct.tesco.com/pi/Product/9/AW10208-9159TPS679111.jpg


This fun CHAV board game satirises modern stereotypes. The aim is to become king of the estate by trading your way around the board avoiding the police and the social. Collect your ''wages'' each week from the DSS and live life to the max.

The games requires 2-4 players. Age range 16 years+.

You can get it from Tesco

[fakeyank]

What does Chav mean?

[Özim]

My own notion of a chav has always been about looks and behaviour. ie, the scum who have nothing better to do than hang outside shops on their BMX's, either side of the entrance, wearing caps, beaten up tracksuits, sporting a fag tucked above their ear, and generally being loud and obnoxious.
Don't forget the chunky gold chains

[Niall_Quinn]

Remember when you could call a spade a spade? Things are so ridiculous now, even that saying would be branded as racist. The biggest outrage is it's still illegal to kill the politically "correct". Surely such an unjust law can't prevail for much longer?

[Cripps_orig]

No more offensive than calling someone gay tbh

[Jofnn]

What does Chav mean?

The acronym is for "Council Housed And Violent"

[Letters]

The acronym is for "Council Housed And Violent"

I think there are a few theories on the origin of the word, that is certainly not the only one.
I agree it's not about money, it's about a person's outlook on life.
And I agree with the above about parenting, it's obviously the biggest influence in anyone's life and while it doesn't neccessarily follow that bad parenting will lead to chavvish behaviour it will tend to.

[Toronto Gooner]

Here is a multitude of definitions from the Urban Dictionary: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chav

[Nozza!]

Oi, geezers, can be arsed to read the thread as I am sure it went along entirely predictable lines. However, have any of you paid cash in hand to tradesmen? If you have did you do so in the certain knowledge that tax may not have been paid on that sum of money...

Are all of you bitching about big business, avoiding these companies products? Have you switched to Co-Operative bank?...

And who amongst us haven't had cause to thank the state for some sort of financial or in kind assistance when in trouble or a victim of circumstance not of their making either personally or within the family...

Bottom line is there are very few people who won't attempt to get away with it if the chances are slim of getting caught...

[V-Pig]

I've never given cash-in-hand to anyone. That would mean tax breaks for dodgy white van men.

[MissHandbag]

Going back to the term "Chav"... which (rightly or wrongly) is an acronym for "Council Housed And Violent". Although the term is very stereotypical, you would only usually refer that particular term to someone you felt was like that... i.e. the tracksuit, joint, can of tennants export, tipped cap & a high pitched voice screaming for a fight! Calling them the name can be seen as a badge of honour, like the ASBO! In that sense, I wouldn't say it's offensive!

Also Chav doesn't refer to a person's financial status (as such) therefore most of the conversation about tax evasion/avoidance is pretty irrelevant... and IMHO is another topic in itself! That said, it angers me a hell of a lot that I'm out working all these hours and paying my taxes month in month out... and there's people out there, who CAN work, who are sitting on their arses all day doing naff all and claiming benefits... because they can! The people who have got used to popping down the job center every couple of weeks to get their dole money... maybe even pop another kid or two out so that they can get more!

And at least one staffi

[LDG]

I just call everyone cunts. Tar all with the same brush. Offensive? Yes. Single anyone out? No.

[Alan B'stard]

buys 2011 real stone island jacket, thinks anyone gives a shit - knob
buys 2011 fake stone island jacket, doesnt realise that most dont care and a certain few know its fake - chav.

offensive? yeah probably. Thats the idea anyway.

[milla]

what is Chav? :coffee:

[milla]

I just call everyone cunts. Tar all with the same brush. Offensive? Yes. Single anyone out? No.

Shut up cunt. :coffee:

[Chrissie]

The Chav's Prayer

Our Father who art in prison, even Mum knows not his name, thy chavdom come, u'll read The Sun, in Newport which is in Cardiff, give us this day our Welfare bread and forgive us our ASBO's as we happy slap those who got ASBO's against us, lead us not into employment but deliver us… free housing, for thine is the Chavdom, the Burberry and the WKD, forever and ever... Innit!...

[MissHandbag]

The Chav's Prayer

Our Father who art in prison, even Mum knows not his name, thy chavdom come, u'll read The Sun, in Newport which is in Cardiff, give us this day our Welfare bread and forgive us our ASBO's as we happy slap those who got ASBO's against us, lead us not into employment but deliver us… free housing, for thine is the Chavdom, the Burberry and the WKD, forever and ever... Innit!...

Hehe - I had no idea you'd been to my street

[LDG]

The Chav's Prayer

Our Father who art in prison, even Mum knows not his name, thy chavdom come, u'll read The Sun, in Newport which is in Cardiff, give us this day our Welfare bread and forgive us our ASBO's as we happy slap those who got ASBO's against us, lead us not into employment but deliver us… free housing, for thine is the Chavdom, the Burberry and the WKD, forever and ever... Innit!...

:haha:

Using that.

[Chrissie]

It make me chuckle lol