We need a sugar daddy to compete.

[AKBapologist]

Scouting is getting harder. Not only has the scouting systems of our rivals improved. News of our interest spreads faster, and rarely do we enter final negotiation without any rival bids - which results in us having to play inflated fees for unknowns...

Inflation in transfer fee's is insane - and It's not going to end. In the EPL, a greater distribution of wealth from TV money has meant that clubs no longer need to sell for as little as they did before. Lower league teams are also in a much more stable financial position - and can hold on to their stars shrugging off all but the most insane bids from the biggest clubs.

Inflation in wages has also followed. Not only does that make us a lot less attractive club for perspective targets to come too, it has a massive disruptive effect on our own squad with our stars looking else where whenever they underperform.

The top clubs are earning more and more. Yes, their debts are huge but it's likely that there'll be bringing in more revenue due to having recent success and competent marketing departments. It's likely even Liverpool will continue to outspend us without drawing attention to the Fair Play Rulings (which I don't think take into account current levels of debt)

AND these sugar daddies aren't going away, they'll be building bigger stadiums, improving their youth and scouting systems catching up on the framework we've already built, whilst achieving success... Yes, At a cost, but football was never suppose to be a business and I no longer think it's correct to believe that billionaire owners purchase clubs to make a few million pounds a year on dividends...

No, I'm not asking for a Glaizer style, debt driven take over, and no - I'd be less than thrilled if Usmanov with his questionable history or an Abramovich style meddling owner came in.

What I'm asking for however, is a honest look at the realities of the situation. For the club to able to match the aspirations of the fans, we must accept that sustainable financing will no longer be relevant given this new age where money = titles. Without an urgent change in course, it's more likely than ever that everything we've accomplished could collapse in an ever accelerating talent draining spiral, the likes of which we seem set to experience this summer.

[budesonide]

No we don't.

We need a manager who will address the deficiencies inherent in the team he has assembled.
We need a manager who will recognise youngsters as youngsters, squad players as squad players and pay them accordingly so that the money can be spent on players who are proven.

We need a manager who is not on a crusade to prove to whomever that refusing to pay the going rate (even on occasion) works. We need a manager who is not deluded.

We do not need a sugar daddy to prevent us from cocking up like we did against birming-fuck*king-ham in a mickey mouse cup final.

We need wenger to fark off.

[Marc Overmars]

It's Abramovich's fault Eboue went mental against Liverpool.

It's the Glazers fault Chez and Kos spazzed out at Wembley.

It's the Arabs fault teams fighting relegation displayed better form than us in the closing weeks of the season.

etc.

We're more than good enough to compete but we don't win anything because of the manager we have.

[Mr.Singh]

No we don't.

We need a manager who will address the deficiencies inherent in the team he has assembled.
We need a manager who will recognise youngsters as youngsters, squad players as squad players and pay them accordingly so that the money can be spent on players who are proven.





We need a manager who is not on a crusade to prove to whomever that refusing to pay the going rate (even on occasion) works. We need a manager who is not deluded.

We do not need a sugar daddy to prevent us from cocking up like we did against birming-fuck*king-ham in a mickey mouse cup final.

We need wenger to fark off.

I agree wenger should just go piss off

[LDG]

Nope.

We just need someone at the club who can manage a football team. The inherent problems at our club are not money orientated, they are deficiences within the management and playing staff which need addressing before we consider transfers.

Until the coaches, board, manager and players man the fuck up and realise that it's not all about pretty football, and actually about hard work, training, tactics and attitude, we'll continue to win fuck all.

Even if we sign 100mil quids worth of players, if the attitude on the training ground remains the same, we'll have the same fucking problems.

[Özim]

You're all wrong, it's just that we're a bit impatient.

[budesonide]

You're all wrong, it's just that we're a bit impatient.

your face is impatient tbh :)

[Flavs]

Nope.

We just need someone at the club who can manage a football team. The inherent problems at our club are not money orientated, they are deficiences within the management and playing staff which need addressing before we consider transfers.

Until the coaches, board, manager and players man the fuck up and realise that it's not all about pretty football, and actually about hard work, training, tactics and attitude, we'll continue to win fuck all.

Even if we sign 100mil quids worth of players, if the attitude on the training ground remains the same, we'll have the same fucking problems.

What he said

[Coney]

With Kronke now in charge the rigid wage structure which was probably imposed on Wenger by the old guard might go out of the window. I am sure that is why we lost people like Ashley Cole and Flamini and others who would have given some continuity like manu have had as they brought young players in. The experience has been missing for the last few years and is a likely cause of the collapses we keep seeing.

[selassie]

You're all wrong, it's just that we're a bit impatient.

:lol:

[AKBapologist]

It's Abramovich's fault Eboue went mental against Liverpool.

It's the Glazers fault Chez and Kos spazzed out at Wembley.

It's the Arabs fault teams fighting relegation displayed better form than us in the closing weeks of the season.

etc.

We're more than good enough to compete but we don't win anything because of the manager we have.

It's our fault we're still clinging on to Eboue, do you think that sort of dross would have made any of our Rivals defence?

It's our fault we signed Kos and Squillachi... Bargin basement signings instead of the type of quality our rivals could pry off EPL teams.

It's our fault we had to re-sign Jens, instead of stumping up the extra 1-2 mill for mark schwarzer last summer.

And in Winter, instead of meeting Blackburns evaluation of Samba, we thought the extra 2mill beyond our evaluation for potentially season defining cover wasn't good value.

I could go on... I think this summer will prove just how pathetic a force we've become during transfer windows.


Even with a shit manager, city have proven just how much money matters. If AW has to go, then he has to go, but the bottom line is that even a new manager would want/need more resources than what we have to build a competent team out of this lot.

[Xhaka Can’t]

LDG is right on the money (pardon the pun) with his post. We don't have a financial problem at this Club, we have a cultural problem.

[AKBapologist]

LDG is right on the money (pardon the pun) with his post. We don't have a financial problem at this Club, we have a cultural problem.

We have a cultural problem now? What does that even mean? SO you change the manager... Then what? Does anyone actually think things through?

[Flavs]

It's our fault we're still clinging on to Eboue, do you think that sort of dross would have made any of our Rivals defence?


Well as a 2nd choice right back he is better than Wes Brown dats fo shaw...

Eboue is a good example of a Wenger player in fact, brilliant physical attributes good technical attributes brain like a turnip. More an athlete than a footballer and not "In-lined" in the way another manager would make him be.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We have a cultural problem now? What does that even mean? SO you change the manager... Then what? Does anyone actually think things through?

We have had that problem for years. A culture in an organisational sense is what behaviours attributes and ethics exist within the organisation/team. The culture of an organisation and what is acceptable are generally determined by senior management within that orgaisation and filter down. If there is an ingrained culture, it can be very difficult to change unless you have a strong will amongst management that are prepared to take the actions necessary. This can be a very difficult task to achieve particularly the longer those attitudes and behaviours have existed.

The key people responsible for the culture we see at Arsenal are, the Board, the Manager and the Captain.

Throwing money at the problem while maintaining the same people responsible for where we are in this regard is likely to achieve nothing.

If you want a practical example, consider the work ethic and leadership within the team at Old Trafford, and compare that with ours. When you have done so, you'll see where our main problems lie.

[AKBapologist]

Throwing money at the situation doesn't preclude the notion that the same people in charge would stay in charge... Infact, quite the opposite. Silly argument.

The aspiration of the fans can't be served by our ownership/resource model. A change of this model would certainly induce a chance of ethos at all levels.

[budesonide]

We have had that problem for years. A culture in an organisational sense is what behaviours attributes and ethics exist within the organisation/team. The culture of an organisation and what is acceptable are generally determined by senior management within that orgaisation and filter down. If there is an ingrained culture, it can be very difficult to change unless you have a strong will amongst management that are prepared to take the actions necessary. This can be a very difficult task to achieve particularly the longer those attitudes and behaviours have existed.

The key people responsible for the culture we see at Arsenal are, the Board, the Manager and the Captain.

Throwing money at the problem while maintaining the same people responsible for where we are in this regard is likely to achieve nothing.

If you want a practical example, consider the work ethic and leadership within the team at Old Trafford, and compare that with ours. When you have done so, you'll see where our main problems lie.

when wenger first arrived, he was lucky -- the foundation was solid with the team he inherited.

He then struck even more luck with the sheer quality of players like anelka,henry and vieira. He probably mistook the sheer brilliance of these players to supercede anything else. But these players were some of the best of their generation -- and sometimes that alone got us out of sticky situations. How many times did henry bail us out. I remember he secured us the 4th spot as a sub against spurs in one of his last years with us.

There is also not wanting to pay over the odds and there is wanting to pay the same prices for top players you had to pay almost a two decades ago.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Throwing money at the situation doesn't preclude the notion that the same people in charge would stay in charge... Infact, quite the opposite. Silly argument.

The aspiration of the fans can't be served by our ownership/resource model. A change of this model would certainly induce a chance of ethos at all levels.

My argument is not silly, it is condsidered and long held. You want a sugar daddy and see this as a way of solving our competitive problems when in fact we should have no competitive problems with the personnel we have. You have completely failed to grasp the point I've made even when I have explained what lies behind the assertion made.

If you don't think our team is one that is talented but constrained by a poor work attitude and ethic, then you have not been paying attention or digging below the surface to think about what lies behind our failure to maintain a consistently high level of performance at varying times of the season - often against significantly weaker opposition.

Our problems can be solved without the pathetic solution you postulate - the resources already exist, the will sadly does not.

[Flavs]

Ah the old "Everthing bad is Wengers fault and everthing good is luck" technique.

I always preferred the hells wind staff myself

[AKBapologist]

My argument is not silly, it is condsidered and long held. You want a sugar daddy and see this as a way of solving our competitive problems when in fact we should have no competitive problems with the personnel we have. You have completely failed to grasp the point I've made even when I have explained what lies behind the assertion made.

If you don't think our team is one that is talented but constrained by a poor work attitude and ethic, then you have not been paying attention or digging below the surface to think about what lies behind our failure to maintain a consistently high level of performance at varying times of the season - often against significantly weaker opposition.

Our problems can be solved without the pathetic solution you postulate - the resources already exist, the will sadly does not.

Our second string squad isn't good enough, we're unable to buy the type of talent we used to be able to buy (bergkamp would be a +40mill player in this market). We are just not competitive in a financial sense, and that's one of the main things that has changed in recent times. Your blinkered if you feel otherwise.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Our second string squad isn't good enough, we're unable to buy the type of talent we used to be able to buy (bergkamp would be a +40mill player in this market). We are just not competitive in a financial sense, and that's one of the main things that has changed in recent times. Your blinkered if you feel otherwise.

You really haven't got a clue.

[Özim]

Our second string squad isn't good enough, we're unable to buy the type of talent we used to be able to buy (bergkamp would be a +40mill player in this market). We are just not competitive in a financial sense, and that's one of the main things that has changed in recent times. Your blinkered if you feel otherwise.
Bergkamp would have never cost 40 million, when we picked him up he'd just had an unsuccessful spell at Inter.

You can buy quality, they might not be dirt cheap, but they don't cost 40 million either.

[DJ Philosophe]

We keep holding onto, pardon my language, dumbass fucking players. Hardly any of them have a footballer's brain and are all athlete. Two perfect examples are Song & Eboue...every game they play they are due for one blatantly dumb mistake. As a coach/former player I can tell you that shit is cancerous, high quality players then know they have to be prepared for the short bus players to have a lapse and do something they have cover for.

That then cause two things, player apathy & lack of respect for the manager. As player you feel let down that the manager will not fix the problem, plus you get tired of covering for others mistakes. Which leads to where we are now with a lot of good players wanting to go.

[AKBapologist]

You really haven't got a clue.
Pretty much all i've heard from you is:

Ah the old "Everthing bad is Wengers fault and everthing good is luck" technique.

*Shrugs*

If you believe SAF coming here with our squad would win us the league, then AW should be given a huge amount of credit for putting together a champion winning size on an 8th the budget of everyone else (similar to the way Roiche and Bould are eulogised on here) - I don't think some of the players are good enough personality, and a manager in a club with high aspirations and resources wouldn't have put up with it for as long as we have.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Pretty much all i've heard from you is:


*Shrugs*

If you believe SAF coming here with our squad would win us the league, then AW should be given a huge amount of credit for putting together a champion winning size on an 8th the budget of everyone else (similar to the way Roiche and Bould are eulogised on here) - I don't think some of the players are good enough personality, and a manager in a club with high aspirations and resources wouldn't have put up with it for as long as we have.

No you haven't.

You heard a reasoned point, clearly explained but you just can't grasp it despite it being in front of your eyes for a number of years.

[AKBapologist]

Bergkamp would have never cost 40 million, when we picked him up he'd just had an unsuccessful spell at Inter.

You can buy quality, they might not be dirt cheap, but they don't cost 40 million either.

He was a well known talent, these days we'd either stay clear of a bidding war or we'd be forced to wait until the final year of the players contract. I can remember Milan quoting 30mill for Hunterhaar after his first season!

[AKBapologist]

No you haven't.

You heard a reasoned point, clearly explained but you just can't grasp it despite it being in front of your eyes for a number of years.

I really didn't mate. It's the 2% away nonsense in a different guise... "oh if only we had a different manager... because everything else is perfect."

[budesonide]

Ah the old "Everthing bad is Wengers fault and everthing good is luck" technique.

I always preferred the hells wind staff myself


Ah the old "Everthing bad is Wengers fault and everthing good is luck" technique.

I always preferred the hells wind staff myself

Far from it; it is quite a tangible argument to be made. If you look at the squad make-up since he arrived up to now, it is telling how striking the difference in personality and character are.

We can choose to blame the playing staff as much as we want, and claim they have "no passion" and what not -- but at the helm of that is a man being paid 6mil a year to get that right.

[LDG]

Our second string squad isn't good enough, we're unable to buy the type of talent we used to be able to buy (bergkamp would be a +40mill player in this market). We are just not competitive in a financial sense, and that's one of the main things that has changed in recent times. Your blinkered if you feel otherwise.

Bergkamp was cut-price because Inter had given up on him. Anelka was nothing, Vieira was nothing, Cesc was nothing. Henry was another who was at a cut-price at the time.

It's not about the money. It's about how Wenger is running the current team. It's about the way he hasn't addressed the problems within that team...a defence that leaks soft goals, the inability to get the right mental attitude within his group of players etc etc.

He refuses to think about outside influences. He will not make the tactical adjustments needed, and in essence does not pay the due respect to other teams that any other manager would.

It isn't money we need. He can go out and spend if he wants. As could any manager who came in. And therefore, throwing money and seeing if it sticks doesn't solve the problem.

We need him, or someone else to sort out the ethos at the club. We don't need a sugar daddy.

Therefore I don't see what your argument is about....why do we need a sugar daddy if we have money to spend??

[selassie]

Pretty much all i've heard from you is:


*Shrugs*

If you believe SAF coming here with our squad would win us the league, then AW should be given a huge amount of credit for putting together a champion winning size on an 8th the budget of everyone else (similar to the way Roiche and Bould are eulogised on here) - I don't think some of the players are good enough personality, and a manager in a club with high aspirations and resources wouldn't have put up with it for as long as we have.

I'm pretty sure SAF wouldn't put up with the rubbish Arsene does. Arsene is too passive, he's too wrapped up in his stupid failing project to see the wood through the trees.

SAF would be a lot more pragmatic & ruthless IMHO. I'm not saying SAF would win us the league with this squad but he would most definitely get more out of them.

[Flavs]

Pretty much all i've heard from you is:


*Shrugs*

If you believe SAF coming here with our squad would win us the league, then AW should be given a huge amount of credit for putting together a champion winning size on an 8th the budget of everyone else (similar to the way Roiche and Bould are eulogised on here) - I don't think some of the players are good enough personality, and a manager in a club with high aspirations and resources wouldn't have put up with it for as long as we have.

yes a more tactically aware manager could finish higher up the league than Wenger currently and yes Wenger deserves all the credit for putting together this squad on bugger all money while getting a brand new stadium and brand new training facilities and raisng our rep, improving scouting, diet, fitness and everything else he has done.

Could be better in the here and now but people are too quick to forget everything he has done because we died on our arse this past 2 years.

[LDG]

I'm pretty sure SAF wouldn't put up with the rubbish Arsene does. Arsene is too passive, he's too wrapped up in his stupid failing project to see the wood through the trees.

SAF would be a lot more pragmatic & ruthless IMHO. I'm not saying SAF would win us the league with this squad but he would most definitely get more out of them.

He definitely would have won the league this year with our squad.

The team is packed with talent.

But he wouldn't have stood for all the nonsence we've seen from our lot this year. There would have been rockets so far up arses, they wouldn't have had time to think about shipping four goals having been four up.

[AKBapologist]

Therefore I don't see what your argument is about....why do we need a sugar daddy if we have money to spend??
Are people thick or something?


I'll be proved right at the end of the summer me thinks. Either way, I'm not absolving Wenger from blame, but do you think Mancini would have won anything with our squad or budget? I guess if you do then there's no hope for any of us.

[IBK]

He definitely would have won the league this year with our squad.

The team is packed with talent.

But he wouldn't have stood for all the nonsence we've seen from our lot this year. There would have been rockets so far up arses, they wouldn't have had time to think about shipping four goals having been four up.

Agreed. And you are spot on with your original analysis too.

If Wenger buys experience this Summer, and lands a player with the stature, authority and leadership to address the attitude problem in the team then that may make a temporary difference, but I'm afraid that our manager ain't going to change his mentality or character now, and I fear that whatever purchases are made, the end result will be the same over time. The culture that has led to our players not playing to their full potential will only change with the manager.

[Flavs]

Are people thick or something?


I'll be proved right at the end of the summer me thinks. Either way, I'm not absolving Wenger from blame, but do you think Mancini would have won anything with our squad or budget? I guess if you do then there's no hope for any of us.

I dont understand how you will be "right" at the end of the summer? Mancini will spend silly money on silly players and we wont, how does that prove we need a sugar daddy? Wenger has money he just chooses to spend it when and where he wants, having a billionaire bankroller wont change that.

[IBK]

Are people thick or something?


I'll be proved right at the end of the summer me thinks. Either way, I'm not absolving Wenger from blame, but do you think Mancini would have won anything with our squad or budget? I guess if you do then there's no hope for any of us.

I don't think he would, no. But I think that a SAF or a Mourinho or a Hiddink would. But that is an issue to do with the manager, not the amount of money we do/don't have to spend.

[LDG]

Are people thick or something?




Eh?

Answer my question nobby. If we already have money to spend (got that part??), why do we need a sugar daddy??

[Cripps_orig]

Spending money would help obviously.

aving a manager who isnt a cunt and knows what hes doing would help even more

[AKBapologist]

I dont understand how you will be "right" at the end of the summer? Mancini will spend silly money on silly players and we wont, how does that prove we need a sugar daddy? Wenger has money he just chooses to spend it when and where he wants, having a billionaire bankroller wont change that.
Oh, so your one of those who think 30mill in the bank is "money to spend" - With signing on fees, first year of wages as well as agent and transfer fees it's precisely fuck all in this market. He's probably already spent 10 mill of that with the youngsters and he probably spent a similar amount all together on transfers last season.

[budesonide]

Are people thick or something?


I'll be proved right at the end of the summer me thinks. Either way, I'm not absolving Wenger from blame, but do you think Mancini would have won anything with our squad or budget? I guess if you do then there's no hope for any of us.

Yes; if mancini or any manager came in and decided he was not going to make excuses for poor performance and address the deficiencies in the team , then yes we coulfd have won the carling cup.

If the manager who comes in is going to take issue with players like bendtner,denilson,diably,eboue, etc all on huge salaries for nothing and invest the money in proven or experienced players, then we can win something or be able to beat teams like fulham.

If the manager who comes in decides to take set-pieces seriously so that we can score from corners as well and defend them too -- then yes our squad can win things.

That is the argument GB,LDG,myself and others have been making.

So you see, all those things do not require a sugar-daddy

[LDG]

Oh, so your one of those who think 30mill in the bank is "money to spend" - With signing on fees, first year of wages as well as agent and transfer fees it's precisely fuck all in this market. He's probably already spent 10 mill of that with the youngsters and he probably spent a similar amount all together on transfers last season.

Writers player of the year: Scott Parker
Players Player of the year: Monkey Welsh Spudcunt

Tell me. How much did they cost their respective clubs. And which of those teams had a sugar daddy.

[selassie]

Are people thick or something?


I'll be proved right at the end of the summer me thinks. Either way, I'm not absolving Wenger from blame, but do you think Mancini would have won anything with our squad or budget? I guess if you do then there's no hope for any of us.

No, you're just saying that we need billions to compete when that patently isn't the case.

We have a few problems right now.

1. Our Manager doesn't seem capable of rectifying some 'long term' issues in the Squad, namely the issues with Central Defence/Set Pieces. In addition to the Defence issues, we have a bloated squad now with a number of players who don't contribute anything to the team who are on over-inflated wages.

2. We seemingly have a cultural/attitude problem amongst members of the Squad.

3. Our Manager won't spend the necessary amount of money to bring in established quality.

You state we need a Sugar Daddy to compete, do you think exclusively throwing money at the problems highlighted will solve our problems? In fact it's a mute point anyway because I'm pretty certain that if Wenger was given Millions to spend he would still refuse to spend it.

[Flavs]

Oh, so your one of those who think 30mill in the bank is "money to spend" - With signing on fees, first year of wages as well as agent and transfer fees it's precisely fuck all in this market. He's probably already spent 10 mill of that with the youngsters and he probably spent a similar amount all together on transfers last season.

I dont wish to come across rude here, but what the fuck are you talking about??

[AKBapologist]

Yes; if mancini or any manager came in and decided he was not going to make excuses for poor performance and address the deficiencies in the team , then yes we coulfd have won the carling cup.

If the manager who comes in is going to take issue with players like bendtner,denilson,diably,eboue, etc all on huge salaries for nothing and invest the money in proven or experienced players, then we can win something or be able to beat teams like fulham.

If the manager who comes in decides to take set-pieces seriously so that we can score from corners as well and defend them too -- then yes our squad can win things.

That is the argument GB,LDG,myself and others have been making.

So you see, all those do not require a sugar-daddy

The season before last, we where beating all the lower league teams handily, and we where all complaining about not being able to beat our competitors. You've latched to a problem that's only really developed THIS season - and has come off the back of some SHOCKING individual performances from players WE ALL KNOW NEEDED TO BE REPLACED, but weren't replaced with the quality needed - or just weren't replaced at all.

Mancini without yaya toure this season would have gotten sacked. These days, players of that quality (for example) just aren't interested in joining us.

[budesonide]

In fact it's a mute point anyway because I'm pretty certain that if Wenger was given Millions to spend he would still refuse to spend it.

Spot on;

Wenger has said that much. And his track record proves it too.

[AKBapologist]

Spot on;

Wenger has said that much. And his track record proves it too.
And if we had an owner who didn't put up with that crap and demanded more, he's be gone. Why are you making this false argument, regurgitating GB's point about how this is all the managers fault?

[Flavs]

The season before last, we where beating all the lower league teams handily, and we where all complaining about not being able to beat our competitors. You've latched to a problem that's only really developed THIS season - and has come off the back of some SHOCKING individual performances from players WE ALL KNOW NEEDED TO BE REPLACED, but weren't replaced with the quality needed - or just weren't replaced at all.

Mancini without yaya toure this season would have gotten sacked. These days, players of that quality (for example) just aren't interested in joining us.

Thats Yaya who cost some 20mil and is on £140k a week? Thank god we didnt get him if thats what it costs.

[AKBapologist]

I dont wish to come across rude here, but what the fuck are you talking about??

You claim that we have the money to spend. In relative terms, we really don't. 30mil? 50mill? Compared to the 90-120mill Chelsea and United are about to spend?

[AKBapologist]

Thats Yaya who cost some 20mil and is on £140k a week? Thank god we didnt get him if thats what it costs.

He's actually on 200k a week, but thats the calibire of players we used to have in a team with "mentality" and all that other shit.

[LDG]

You claim that we have the money to spend. In relative terms, we really don't. 30mil? 50mill? Compared to the 90-120mill Chelsea and United are about to spend?

You may have missed this earlier :)

Writers player of the year: Scott Parker
Players Player of the year: Monkey Welsh Spudcunt

Tell me. How much did they cost their respective clubs. And which of those teams had a sugar daddy.

[Flavs]

He's actually on 200k a week, but thats the calibire of players we used to have in a team with "mentality" and all that other shit.

Ok so just as a posing question, how much do you think Fabregas should be on?

[budesonide]

The season before last, we where beating all the lower league teams handily, and we where all complaining about not being able to beat our competitors. You've latched to a problem that's only really developed THIS season - and has come off the back of some SHOCKING individual performances from players WE ALL KNOW NEEDED TO BE REPLACED, but weren't replaced with the quality needed - or just weren't replaced at all.

And whose fault is that? And whose fault was it that the situation couldn't even be arrested when the manager (on 6mil a year) came out to say we will fight till the end".

Individual performances? --- i don't think so! As a team we cannot defend; and it has been a problem for years now. We cannot even take corners properly. So i suppose what we need is a sugar-daddy to sign a 5o million player to take corners for us. Isn't wenger the one who professes technical football acumen?

[Joker]

We can't complain about sugar daddies when the major problems at this club stem from Wenger's poor managerial decisions in the last 5 years. Moreover, I don't think that Sunderland, Blackburn, West Brom, Bolton, Newcastle etc are richer than us, yet they all took points off us last season.
The problems are closer to home, and we cannot look at Man City or Chelsea and blame them for our failings. The problems inherent at the club have been around for many years, long before City were taken over.

[AKBapologist]

Ok so just as a posing question, how much do you think Fabregas should be on?

The going rates for marquee players in this league is about 200k-250k per week.

And LOL at LDG using the most overrated players in the league as an argument for anything.

[Kano]

Scouting is getting harder. Not only has the scouting systems of our rivals improved. News of our interest spreads faster, and rarely do we enter final negotiation without any rival bids - which results in us having to play inflated fees for unknowns...

Inflation in transfer fee's is insane - and It's not going to end. In the EPL, a greater distribution of wealth from TV money has meant that clubs no longer need to sell for as little as they did before. Lower league teams are also in a much more stable financial position - and can hold on to their stars shrugging off all but the most insane bids from the biggest clubs.

Inflation in wages has also followed. Not only does that make us a lot less attractive club for perspective targets to come too, it has a massive disruptive effect on our own squad with our stars looking else where whenever they underperform.

The top clubs are earning more and more. Yes, their debts are huge but it's likely that there'll be bringing in more revenue due to having recent success and competent marketing departments. It's likely even Liverpool will continue to outspend us without drawing attention to the Fair Play Rulings (which I don't think take into account current levels of debt)

AND these sugar daddies aren't going away, they'll be building bigger stadiums, improving their youth and scouting systems catching up on the framework we've already built, whilst achieving success... Yes, At a cost, but football was never suppose to be a business and I no longer think it's correct to believe that billionaire owners purchase clubs to make a few million pounds a year on dividends...

No, I'm not asking for a Glaizer style, debt driven take over, and no - I'd be less than thrilled if Usmanov with his questionable history or an Abramovich style meddling owner came in.

What I'm asking for however, is a honest look at the realities of the situation. For the club to able to match the aspirations of the fans, we must accept that sustainable financing will no longer be relevant given this new age where money = titles. Without an urgent change in course, it's more likely than ever that everything we've accomplished could collapse in an ever accelerating talent draining spiral, the likes of which we seem set to experience this summer.

so you want someone to come in, pay off all the debts and spend big too? it won't happen given the way we've financed the stadium.

we've got two huge potential investors but they won't spend big or pay off the debts as they can watch their share value rise and as the debt falls. every investor wants a significant return at any club

[budesonide]

And if we had an owner who didn't put up with that crap and demanded more, he's be gone. Why are you making this false argument, regurgitating GB's point about how this is all the managers fault?

what, so we just need a sugar-daddy just to tell wenger to wake the fuck up?

if so, then we are royally fuc*ked --

[AKBapologist]

And whose fault is that? And whose fault was it that the situation couldn't even be arrested when the manager (on 6mil a year) came out to say we will fight till the end".

Individual performances? --- i don't think so! As a team we cannot defend; and it has been a problem for years now. We cannot even take corners properly. So i suppose what we need is a sugar-daddy to sign a 5o million player to take corners for us. Isn't wenger the one who professes technical football acumen?


WHY do you keep on talking as if I'm trying to defend Wenger - totally indifferent on him as a manager at this point. You certainly need an owner to change manager, so please sit down and shut up.

[Flavs]

The going rates for marquee players in this league is about 200k-250k per week.

And LOL at LDG using the most overrated players in the league as an argument for anything.

You think that "marquee" players such as Yaya Toure should be on that amount? Then i am even more glad we dont have someone at the top sanctioning such moves and a manager who can keep us in the top 4 without joining such stupidity.

[Flavs]

so please sit down and shut up.

Hmm well debated :doh:

[AKBapologist]

so you want someone to come in, pay off all the debts and spend big too? it won't happen given the way we've financed the stadium.

we've got two huge potential investors but they won't spend big or pay off the debts as they can watch their share value rise and as the debt falls. every investor wants a significant return at any club

Abramovich has spunked +700mill into chelsea, City around 500mill they won't be getting that back in there life time (unless they ruined there clubs) even if they decided to stop spending tomorrow - which they won't.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger wouldn't be able to cope with the type of problems Mancini and Ancelotti had. He wouldn't be able to manage the big egos and wouldn't accept the owner interfering with his work. A Sugar Daddy would be like handing the guy a rope to hang himself with. It's a silly thread and hasn't really been thought through.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And if we had an owner who didn't put up with that crap and demanded more, he's be gone. Why are you making this false argument, regurgitating GB's point about how this is all the managers fault?

Stop confusing the voices in your head with the point I've been clearly making.

It's starting to piss me off.

[AKBapologist]

You think that "marquee" players such as Yaya Toure should be on that amount? Then i am even more glad we dont have someone at the top sanctioning such moves and a manager who can keep us in the top 4 without joining such stupidity.

Ok, so now AW is a hero. Make up your minds. Are you happy with CL qualification or do you want to win stuff?

Totally mental.

[AKBapologist]

Wenger wouldn't be able to cope with the type of problems Mancini and Ancelotti had. He wouldn't be able to manage the big egos and wouldn't accept the owner interfering with his work. A Sugar Daddy would be like handing the guy a rope to hang himself with. It's a silly thread and hasn't really been thought through.

Where did I say I didn't want the manager to be changed?

[AKBapologist]

You think that "marquee" players such as Yaya Toure should be on that amount? Then i am even more glad we dont have someone at the top sanctioning such moves and a manager who can keep us in the top 4 without joining such stupidity.

I'm not a free market fundimentalist, but I have to accept that this is the system that the football is based around. A player is worth however much a team wants to pay for him. Given teams are paying a certain amount, the question of "should" is irrelevant or at best, philosophical.

[Kano]

Abramovich has spunked +700mill into chelsea, City around 500mill they won't be getting that back in there life time even if they decided to stop spending tomorrow - which they won't.

this is abramovichs hobby, a personal fantasy to win the cl and live out his dream. he turned his debt into equity which will probably mean clawing that back through dividends and capital gains

and the city situation is completely unique to anyone else, pretty much in any sport.

[budesonide]

You certainly need an owner to change manager, so please sit down and shut up.

Eh?

why then have we got a board of directors? So companies without a single wealthy owner cannot tell their lower management to shape up or gtfo?

[budesonide]

Where did I say I didn't want the manager to be changed?

Here;


You certainly need an owner to change manager, so please sit down and shut up.

[LDG]

The going rates for marquee players in this league is about 200k-250k per week.

And LOL at LDG using the most overrated players in the league as an argument for anything.

Well what is your argument??? You haven't actually put one accross. You've just said we need a sugar daddy. And used Yaya Toure as an example.

You forget that in City's sugar daddy time, they have also bought absolute dogshite players for extortionate amounts, who have done jack shit for them.

We stuffed city at their gaff. And were all over them at ours. So why is it that they finished above us?? It certainly wasn't about money....it wasn't that their team had more quality...it was because we tripped over our arse, capitulated as per normal, and threw away needless points.

EVERYONE on this thread is saying the same thing to you. Whilst we could use some cash being spent in the RIGHT areas, we don't NEED to lavishly spend 250mil.

What we NEED, is for our manager to wake up and smell the fucking stink he has created, and rectify it.

We all KNOW Wenger is a decent manager. But we KNOW he has been given leave to try and build a team from scratch partly out of necessity, but also with good intention. Now that it has been proved over the last three years that it hasn't worked, he is being asked to sort the fucker out.

Practically no gooner wants our club to be fake. They just want their manager to get his head out of his fucking arse. Money has nothing to do with it.

[AKBapologist]

Eh?

why then have we got a board of directors? So companies without a single wealthy owner cannot tell their lower management to shape up?
Our board of directors are too busy selling out to Kronke and telling the fans that there either stupid or ungrateful. What are they doing to do anything about "lower management?"

[Power n Glory]

Where did I say I didn't want the manager to be changed?

So you want a change in ownership and manager? Cool.

We have a change in ownership. He just won't be a sugar daddy and we don't need that. The new rules that come into play won't allow us to spend beyond our means anyway. So that kills that idea.

[AKBapologist]

Here;
Because saying that you need an owner to change the manager means I didn't want the manager to change.


OK. I guess I've just got to accept the caliblire of people I'm dealing with here... /o\

[Flavs]

I'm not a free market fundimentalist, but I have to accept that this is the system that the football is based around. A player is worth however much a team wants to pay for him. Given teams are paying a certain amount, the question of "should" is irrelevant or at best, philosophical.

but you think Yaya is a marquee player and because his wages are £200k a week that is what similar players should be on? I would say that Parker is not ony a better player but had a better season despite being in the shower of shit that is west ham and yet you mock LDG above for using him as an example?

In fact we are very like man city in that we have a large portion of players who dont pull their weight and get paid irrelevant wages, we also have a manager who is under increasing pressure for his job and has lost a certain percentage of his players. The difference is we arent getting taken from behind by an arab and we dont have to pt up with teh likes of Tevez, Balotelli, Bellamy, Santa Cruz, Adebayor and so on being on £150k a week.

[LDG]

Because saying that you need an owner to change the manager means I didn't want the manager to change.


OK. I guess I've just got to accept the caliblire of people I'm dealing with here... /o\

As I, like everyone else, is so obviously thick and can't come up with an argument, I guess that gives me free reign to go for the juvenile option.

Shut up you fucking dick.

[AKBapologist]

So you want a change in ownership and manager? Cool.

We have a change in ownership. He just won't be a sugar daddy and we don't need that. The new rules that come into play won't allow us to spend beyond our means anyway. So that kills that idea.
My bet is on that fair play ruling being totally ignored, especially by the Spanish clubs.

Also, having a passive owner kinda kills the idea of anything else happening with our club on the pitch anyway.

[Flavs]

My bet is on that fair play ruling being totally ignored, especially by the Spanish clubs.

Also, having a passive owner kinda kills the idea of anything else happening with our club on the pitch anyway.

Nope because its run by UEFA not the individual FA's so after the 3 phase impelmentation it will become binding and anyone who doesnt comply is fined and docked 10 points. Basically Chelsea, Man city and Manpoo have a year to pay off all their debts or at least enugh that the repayment costs are covered by income.

[Power n Glory]

My bet is on that fair play ruling being totally ignored, especially by the Spanish clubs.

That's assured me. You've got my vote! :good:

[AKBapologist]

Nope because its run by UEFA not the individual FA's so after the 3 phase impelmentation it will become binding and anyone who doesnt comply is fined and docked 10 points. Basically Chelsea, Man city and Manpoo have a year to pay off all their debts or at least enugh that the repayment costs are covered by income.
Chelsea and City can just write down there debts if necessary, Barca and Real will carry on as per usual. United are still so much further ahead of us in terms of revenue generated that we'll never catch up. Even if the FFA works, that's exactly when those teams will do all the investment in infrastructure that we're now currently paying for, catching up to our level in that regard in less time whilst having a decent run of successes. I honestly see us fighting for scraps between Liverpool, City, and United - especially if AW is as bad a manager as we all currently believe him to be.

[Flavs]

Chelsea and City can just write down there debts if necessary, Barca and Real will carry on as per usual. United are still so much further ahead of us in terms of revenue generated that we'll never catch up. Even if the FFA works, that's exactly when those teams will do all the investment in infrastructure that we're now currently paying for, catching up to our level in that regard in less time whilst having a decent run of successes. I honestly see us fighting for scraps between Liverpool, City, and United - especially if AW is as bad a manager as we all currently believe him to be.

yes chelsea and city can write off debt this year but teh rules prevent that from 2012 onwards, Manyoo are lucky in the amountof revenue they bring in but are still some £400mil in debt and will struggle to shift that after this year is done.

Real are the same as manyoo but with less debt, currently Barca are fooked and i dont think its a surprise they have sigend a commercial sponsorhip this season instead of their UNICEF sponsor.

Seriously next summer will be dull as hell cos there wont be any huge deals as clubs just cant justify the spend against income. No-one is saying they cant have debt put you have to pay it off rather than just letting it continue endlessly

[Marc Overmars]

The way I see it is that it's almost irrelevant what our rivals do because we consistently make basic errors and show a worrying lack of a composure when dealing with pressure, it's been going on for many years and that is why I put the blame right at Wenger's door. He has his hands burnt every year by the players he's invested so much time and faith in, yet almost without fail, he overlooks the glaring problems and thinks their "spirit, maturity, character" etc will carry them through. He's a soft touch and I bet most of his players don't give a fuck about the purist ideology he tries to force on them.

This is why I don't take any notice of what others do. City and Chelsea can go and spend whatever they like, yet I guarantee we will match them blow for blow next season until we lose our bottle because the manager is not strong enough to get a reaction out of his players.

[Flavs]

I think come the first of July we are all going to be a little bit shocked to see how many of our players have already been sold. I think we will also sign a couple at that point and 1 maybe 2 more before the window closes.

I will judge Arsene at the end of this season and see if he genuinely can change what he does.

[Joker]

I just think this is going to be another summer of disappointments. Sure, some of the deadwood will be shifted out, but I doubt Wenger will make the necessary signings that will help break this cycle of underachievement that we've been in for the last 5 years. The early signs aren't exactly promising, with Jones (a player we were apparently interested in) having a medical at United, Nasri making noises about wanting to leave, etc.

[AKBapologist]

Looking at the number of players Arsenal use in a given season shows the team needs to do a better job of rotating the squad and building depth. Arsenal used 21 different outfield players as starters this past season, compared to 26 for the league champions, Manchester United, and 24 for their Champions League Final opponent Barcelona. Arsenal had 14 outfield players with ten starts or more in the league, compared to 17 for United. Especially with the added workload of playing into the Carling Cup Final as well as in several match replays, a team needs many more players than the 11 that take the pitch on a given night. Depth has been shown as a necessity this past season, potentially more than any in the recent past. Arsenal need to keep their players fresher throughout the year, take calculated risks on when players should be used as substitutes or on the bench, but still maintain a high level skill and continuity throughout the players who do start in any given match.
http://www.arsenal.com/usa/news/news-archive/if-i-was-manager...-part-1

Personally, you can argue about mentality this, composure that - but we started the league with less senior squad players than the limit. Beyond the first 11, our squad players where greatly over estimated which created significant tactical problems on the pitch on probably 4/5 of the occasions. And then there are the individual errors... more than any other season I can remember, it was a theme for the season sure, but over the last 6 years? No, the seasons before we lost due to not beating the teams around us, this season everyone dropped points at the lower league teams.

And stop trying to suggest that the specific problems we have had are independent from specific players in certain positions and it's ALL down to training and the manager - 50/50 at best.

[Power n Glory]

We've had defensive problems since Sol Campbell had that break down. From Kolo Toure and Senderos, Gallas and Toure, Gallas and Vermaelen, Kos and Djourou, Kos and Squallaci...regardless of the combo it's been a problem area. The lack of leadership and fight when the chips are down...that's a team problem that the manager has to correct. After the Birmingham game he said we'd fight to the end and the team didn't. This isn't the only season where we've collapsed either. It's not 50:50 in my eyes. We've seen Wenger build three different teams over the past 6 years and each of them had the same problem. From the Captain Henry years, Captain Gallas years to Captain Cesc. Same problems with all of them.

[IBK]

@ the OP

Do we need a sugar daddy to compete with the financially doped clubs going forward? No - provided that AFC maintains its current CL position, and chooses the right manager.

The reason why so many people are of this view is that we have, undoubtedly, had the quality of players to have won titles in the past 5 years - despite the likes of the Chavs; Manure; Citeh and even Spurs and Liverpool spunking far more than we have in the transfer market. It is the mentality that has been wrong, and not only might another manager have provided that mentality and addressed the obvious flaws in AW's regime, but he might have spent judisciously to address problem areas rather than gambling on 'proteges' delivering.

Going forwards, it is reasonable to believe that even with the relatively limited spending power that Arsenal has (compared to the teams listed above), an astute manager will be able to continue to compete - in the same way that AW has for the past 5 years, less perhaps some of his more inexplicable blind spots. We are a big club, in terms of revenue - and therefore almost uniquely equipped to compete with the doped clubs - particularly with teh Fair Play rules coming in.

Where we may find it a lot harder, though, is if AW continues down the route he is on and falls out of the CL places. Then we may find it difficult to attract the players needed to get back up there.

[LDG]

We've had defensive problems since Sol Campbell had that break down. From Kolo Toure and Senderos, Gallas and Toure, Gallas and Vermaelen, Kos and Djourou, Kos and Squallaci...regardless of the combo it's been a problem area. The lack of leadership and fight when the chips are down...that's a team problem that the manager has to correct. After the Birmingham game he said we'd fight to the end and the team didn't. This isn't the only season where we've collapsed either. It's not 50:50 in my eyes. We've seen Wenger build three different teams over the past 6 years and each of them had the same problem. From the Captain Henry years, Captain Gallas years to Captain Cesc. Same problems with all of them.

Spot on.

[Letters]

We're more than good enough to compete but we don't win anything because of the manager we have.

We're also more than good enough to compete because of the manager we have.
It is maddening combination but don't underestimate how well Wenger has done to assemble a squad this good without spending silly money.
The fact that they're so much less than the sum of their parts when push comes to shove is down to him too of course.

[AKBapologist]

Where we may find it a lot harder, though, is if AW continues down the route he is on and falls out of the CL places. Then we may find it difficult to attract the players needed to get back up there.

We're already finding it difficult to attract talents, beyond kids and a few french players, no one good wants to come here. If we dropped out of the top 4 we'd be truly fucked.

[budesonide]

http://www.arsenal.com/usa/news/news-archive/if-i-was-manager...-part-1

Personally, you can argue about mentality this, composure that - but we started the league with less senior squad players than the limit. Beyond the first 11, our squad players where greatly over estimated which created significant tactical problems on the pitch on probably 4/5 of the occasions. And then there are the individual errors... more than any other season I can remember, it was a theme for the season sure, but over the last 6 years? No, the seasons before we lost due to not beating the teams around us, this season everyone dropped points at the lower league teams.

And stop trying to suggest that the specific problems we have had are independent from specific players in certain positions and it's ALL down to training and the manager - 50/50 at best.


And whose fault is that?

Wenger says signing quality and experienced players will "kill" his youngsters. A sugar-daddy won't change that if the manager isn't willing to spend and buy and buy well where and where necessary!

So wanting a sugar-daddy is one thing; NEEDING one to compete (as club of our stature) is bollocks.

[Kano]

We're already finding it difficult to attract talents, beyond kids and a few french players, no one good wants to come here. If we dropped out of the top 4 we'd be truly fucked.

thats more to do with the wage structure. most fans despise the amounts these mugs earn so why shouldn't a club and/or manager make an issue of it and not just cave in

[AKBapologist]

And whose fault is that?

Wenger says signing quality and experienced players will "kill" his youngsters. A sugar-daddy won't change that if the manager isn't willing to spend and buy and buy well where and where necessary!

So wanting a sugar-daddy is one thing; NEEDING one to compete (as club of our stature) is bollocks.

Same retarded crap arguing a point that has little to do with the bottom line...

If want to change aspirations at the club, you'll need a sugar daddy. Someone with a signaleur vision, with lower tolerance for mediocrity and with the resources to fully support whatever manager we had at the club, whether that be AW or otherwise.

You keep on talking about how bad AW is as a manager, but when poorer managers can do better than we can with unlimited resources, you've got to wonder.

[budesonide]

thats more to do with the wage structure. most fans despise the amounts these mugs earn so why shouldn't a club and/or manager make an issue of it and not just cave in

But they have no reservations paying unproven and untested kids ridiculous sums just based on potential? That is what most fans also have issue with. Where is the sense in paying someone like bendtner all those sums the past half a decade for just his potential only to get nothing in return. I am no economics expert but that is stupid.

[LDG]

I am no economics expert but that is stupid.

That's alright. Neither is Syn.

[budesonide]

Same retarded crap arguing a point that has little to do with the bottom line...

If want to change aspirations at the club, you'll need a sugar daddy. Someone with a signaleur vision, with lower tolerance for mediocrity and with the resources to fully support whatever manager we had at the club, whether that be AW or otherwise.

You keep on talking about how bad AW is as a manager, but when poorer managers can do better than we can with unlimited resources, you've got to wonder.

your moronic lines of logic are actually starting to grate.

do you even know what a sugar-daddy means?

[Letters]

That's alright. Neither is Syn.

We need someone with an A level in economics tbh.

[AKBapologist]

thats more to do with the wage structure. most fans despise the amounts these mugs earn so why shouldn't a club and/or manager make an issue of it and not just cave in
When managers like SAF who know the value of keeping there stars, paying market rates for talent and getting players in who'd improve the squad independent of cost (and offering wages of +200K) whilst being rewarded for it with titles; proving this shit beyond doubt season after season... The choice we as fans have to make is whether we're satisfied with just CL qualification and a moral superiority complex or whether we want to win stuff.

To be honest, the ticket price rise made up my mind.

[Kano]

But they have no reservations paying unproven and untested kids ridiculous sums just based on potential? That is what most fans also have issue with. Where is the sense in paying someone like bendtner all those sums the past half a decade for just his potential only to get nothing in return. I am no economics expert but that is stupid.

investment in youth in line with the general policy. right or wrong, that's the way it's been but gladly they are not pay 200k etc for any

[Darth Vela]

investment in youth in line with the general policy. right or wrong, that's the way it's been but gladly they are not pay 200k etc for any

We need to do it this way as we can't afford to compete with the sugar-daddy backed clubs.

There is nothing weirder than those that slate our ambition and our youth policy in the same breath (don't think anyone here has done so in this thread but it happens a lot...), it's as if they don't understand the power of money in the modern game.

If you need something a little more substantial budesonside, We've got a decent goal return and we'll get a decent transfer fee for Bendtner, we've got something out of him footballistically AND financially, that's decent economic sense imo.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Reading through this thread, AKB apologist wants an owner that is a sugar daddy who:

-Spends hundreds of millions on players
-Pays our marquee players (the likes of Yaya) in excess of £200m per week
-Doesn't interfere like Abramovich
-Isn't passive like Kroenke
-Isn't of morally dubious persuasion like Usmanov
-Needs to be incredibly handsome

OK, I made the last one up, but while we are living in fucking la la land, could we change the last point to the owner being a gorgeous nymphomaniac blonde with big tits?

[budesonide]

We need to do it this way as we can't afford to compete with the sugar-daddy backed clubs.

There is nothing weirder than those that slate our ambition and our youth policy in the same breath (don't think anyone here has done so in this thread but it happens a lot...), it's as if they don't understand the power of money in the modern game.

If you need something a little more substantial budesonside, We've got a decent goal return and we'll get a decent transfer fee for Bendtner, we've got something out of him footballistically AND financially, that's decent economic sense imo.

We got something out of him? Really? Anything that made us competitive as a top club? I don't think so -- but that is your opinion. According to wenger he does not buy BECAUSE doing so will kill' the likes of bendtner,diaby,denilson etc. When thse players have bid their goodbyes after not being "killed" by AW, let's hope he actually buys and KEEPS HOLD of the quality and established players or "super super quality" players he chooses not to buy because of these so-called promising youngsters.


Brcelona haven't got a sugar-daddy, but they compete to win things and do win things. They also employ a youth policy --- a very good one at that --- but do break the bank to buy where necessary to make sure that they stay at the very top. And guess what, they do stay there or have for sometime now.

There is a balance to be had.

[Darth Vela]

Yeah, Barca are one of the biggest teams in the world who are able to afford to blow massive amounts of loans in players because the banks aren't willing to do shit against them, I don't think we can point at them as a marvel of modern football in that respect. Their academy is, however, better than ours which is something we can aspire to reach and as one of our youth products was on a par with theirs, we're not THAT far off imo.

We don't buy the top players at their peak because we can't afford them so instead of going the Spurs route of throwing money at mediocre players in the hope that something sticks (which it did, for one whole season, whooo), we develop the talented youngsters which requires a little more management than spending large amounts on players at the top the second echelon in the hope they push onto the higher level.

I do agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that there must be a balance in these things though, I think it was slightly off but given that we were financially hamstrung I can see why we erred in the favour of development, now we see if we can push on I guess by buying in experience and slightly older talents.

[budesonide]

Yeah, Barca are one of the biggest teams in the world who are able to afford to blow massive amounts of loans in players because the banks aren't willing to do shit against them, I don't think we can point at them as a marvel of modern football in that respect. Their academy is, however, better than ours which is something we can aspire to reach and as one of our youth products was on a par with theirs, we're not THAT far off imo.

We don't buy the top players at their peak because we can't afford them so instead of going the Spurs route of throwing money at mediocre players in the hope that something sticks (which it did, for one whole season, whooo), we develop the talented youngsters which requires a little more management than spending large amounts on players at the top the second echelon in the hope they push onto the higher level.
.

No; you missed my point.

Those are not the reasons why we are not buying where and when we need real quality.

[Darth Vela]

Why aren't we then?

[budesonide]

Why aren't we then?

[/QUOTE]According to wenger he does not buy BECAUSE doing so will 'kill' the likes of bendtner,diaby,denilson etc. When these players have bid their goodbyes after not being "killed" by AW, let's hope he actually buys and KEEPS HOLD of the quality and established players or "super super quality" players he chooses not to buy because of these so-called promising youngsters. [/QUOTE]

[Darth Vela]

Yes, and the reason for that is developing younger players is fricking pointless if you bring in mediocre guys and limit their chances, isn't that exactly what I said?

[budesonide]

Yes, and the reason for that is developing younger players is fricking pointless if you bring in mediocre guys and limit their chances, isn't that exactly what I said?

Eh?

Who said anything about bringing in mediocre players? You said that.

Weren't you claiming we don't have money to spend on top players? And that we are financially humstrung? While AW have been claiming for over 5 years that he doesn't sign top players or 'super super quality' players because it will kill his youngsters -- a self-imposed restriction.

[Özim]

Yes, and the reason for that is developing younger players is fricking pointless if you bring in mediocre guys and limit their chances, isn't that exactly what I said?
Let's be honest here, the vaste majority of these youngsters are mediocre, our youth policy really isn't anything special.

[Darth Vela]

Eh?

Who said anything about bringing in mediocre players? You said that.

Weren't you claiming we don't have money to spend on top players? And that we are financially humstrung? While AW have been claiming for over 5 years that he doesn't sign top players or 'super super quality' players because it will kill his youngsters -- a self-imposed restriction.

You did, although maybe not intentionally.

There are only two ways of doing this, if you can't pay for the top guys at the top of their game to pack out your squad then you need to either develop the youngsters or buy in mediocre players in the hope that they step up, those are the only two options to build a team.

If Wenger could pack out the team with top players I feel sure he would but we were unable to do so, hence the youth thing. Now we have a little more cash and the squad needs tweaking I'm sure he'll get in more experience, players closer to their peak and at a good quality.

[Darth Vela]

Let's be honest here, the vaste majority of these youngsters are mediocre, our youth policy really isn't anything special.

Well, we'll know a little better when this new batch comes through properly imo. The last lot that are no longer here have carved out decent careers around the Premiership and I'm pretty damn sure that Bendtner and Denilson will go to good teams, CL teams or those challenging for those spaces probably.

Whichever way you look at it, the closest guys to us who've used the alternative method have come up consistently short, that says something for our squad.

[AKBapologist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13679632

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2000993/Leos-London-Theo-Walcott-crazy-thinks-Wenger-break-bank.html?

[Coney]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2000993/Leos-London-Theo-Walcott-crazy-thinks-Wenger-break-bank.html?[/QUOTE]


Only 35 million? Wrong. It will be more because Wenger will sell some players (Arshavin, Bendtner and Clichy at least) so there will be more money for buying players. He won't break the bank because of the new UEFA rules. Any manager who does break the bank will have the chickens come back to roost next season when the financial fair play rules for Europe come into play.

[Kano]

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Arsenal

[AKBapologist]

The FFP rules kick in after this transfer window IIRC.

[Coney]

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Arsenal



Thats a good read.

[LDG]

http://swissramble.blogspot.com/search/label/Arsenal

Cracking read. Ta for that.

[AKBapologist]

Would rather the devils advocate than none at all...


Usmanov blasts Arsenal board for Gunners trophy drought
Published 12:03 12/06/11 By MirrorFootball

Recommend (3)


Uzbek billionaire Alisher Usmanov has laid the blame for Arsenal's failure to secure any silverware in the last six seasons squarely at the door of the club's board.

The 57-year-old, who is not an Arsenal director, even though he owns almost 30% of Arsenal Holdings, believes self-interest among the board members is stymieing the Gunners' chances of on-field success.

Usmanov also claimed there would need to be a switch in emphasis if he were to end up on the board.

He told the News of the World: "If the role of a board member is to oversee a trophyless period, while making significant personal profits and asking fans to pay inflation-busting ticket price increases then, no, I would not want to be on the board.



"If instead it is to try to deliver sustained success, to increase your personal investment in the club, to help develop the commercial position and to ensure the fans have a say in the running of the club then, yes, I think I certainly have something to contribute.

"In terms of doing things differently, let me give you a very clear example. Arsenal has all of its major commercial contracts coming up for renewal in the next couple of years.

"It's no secret that to maximise the value of those you want to have success on the field and be winning trophies. To do that you need to invest now in building a winning team. This is simple commercial logic. Whether it comes to pass, we shall see."

Arsenal's season collapsed in spectacular fashion following their Carling Cup final defeat to Birmingham in February, with their challenges in the Champions League, FA Cup and Premier League all crumbling in the wake of that Wembley reverse.

And Usmanov is of the opinion that manager Arsene Wenger needs to be given the financial backing to bring in experienced players to complement the crop of talented youngsters the club have at their disposal.

"There is a widely-held view among most commentators - and one that I agree with - that the club needs to stiffen the defensive spine of the team, with a dominant keeper, strong centre-halves and a powerful defensive midfielder in the mould of Claude Makelele," he said.

"The Premier League is one of the most competitive in the world and whilst we have consistently challenged for honours, the club needs to develop talent and buy top-class players to win the trophies we all crave. This requires greater investment which, I believe, has been lacking thus far.

"What however is not clear is whether the board shares this view. For too long they have seemed happy to sanction second, third and fourth as being acceptable, whilst at the same time they are planning to sell their shares."



Read more: http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Arsenal-news-Alisher-Usmanov-blasts-Gunners-board-for-trophy-drought-article746428.html#ixzz1P4AHquKM
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[fakeyank]

Even an Uzbek can see what our problems are.. but AW cant! :doh:

[fari]

wow, wow...usmanov spoke some truth there. i wonder if there will be any reaction from the board

[Toronto Gooner]

Can someone explain why he spoke to the News of the World rather than an actual newspaper?

If the NOTW was the only paper that reported Arsenal were going to sign a player, there would be hoots of derision and calls for verification from a real source.

[Boss]

Can someone explain why he spoke to the News of the World rather than an actual newspaper?

If the NOTW was the only paper that reported Arsenal were going to sign a player, there would be hoots of derision and calls for verification from a real source.

Not if NOTW had quotes from the player itself stating that he was going to sign.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I still think its pretty scandelous that Usmanov isnt on the board tbh.

He is the second largest shareholder and has absolutely no say whatsoever.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I still think its pretty scandelous that Usmanov isnt on the board tbh.

He is the second largest shareholder and has absolutely no say whatsoever.

He isn't wanted by any of the other shareholders, they have always made that clear. So if he doesn't like that, he can always sell up and fuck off.

[KSE Comedy Club]

He isn't wanted by any of the other shareholders, they have always made that clear. So if he doesn't like that, he can always sell up and fuck off.

Ok, but why?

Why is there any need for that stance/attitude towards him?

There is nothing really concrete about him, its all rumour, speculation and accusations.

Or do the board not want him there because he wants them to spend some money?

[Kano]

they can't stop dicks like dein selling out to him but they can keep as much distance as possible from these sort of allegations

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/2007/09/28/craig-murray-usmanov-allegations-in-official-record-of-european-parliament/

the board do not take money out of the club through dividends as he wants and it would be stupid to risk getting caught up with the mess he could bring.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Ok, but why?

Why is there any need for that stance/attitude towards him?

There is nothing really concrete about him, its all rumour, speculation and accusations.

Or do the board not want him there because he wants them to spend some money?

You would assume the board performed due dilligence, and really didn't like what they found.

First do some reading around, then decide whether you'd feel safe bending over in front of this man.

[Boss]

Not sure giving him a place on the board would be equivalent to 'bending over in front of' him.

Wouldn't want him in charge but don't see anything wrong with him getting a place on the board.

[IBK]

The fact that Usmanov is saying what just about every man and his dog are does not mean that this is not some cynical PR exercise by him.

[Özim]

It's funny how some seem to deny the obvious, that the board have made great personal gains from this policy (and they have, even if they don't get dividends then by share price alone), the lack of investment means they minimise the risk...if they truly wanted us to be successful on the football side they wouldn't have allowed the current policy to have lasted 6 years.

All we hear about is how the club is doing well financially, how share price is high, how 4th place is like a trophy and a wonderful achievement...stuff the fans don't really give a damn about or at least see as secondary to the on the pitch action.

[KSE Comedy Club]

they can't stop dicks like dein selling out to him but they can keep as much distance as possible from these sort of allegations

http://www.mattwardman.com/blog/2007/09/28/craig-murray-usmanov-allegations-in-official-record-of-european-parliament/

the board do not take money out of the club through dividends as he wants and it would be stupid to risk getting caught up with the mess he could bring.

More accusations, nothing fact at all.

[KSE Comedy Club]

It's funny how some seem to deny the obvious, that the board have made great personal gains from this policy (and they have, even if they don't get dividends then by share price alone), the lack of investment means they minimise the risk...if they truly wanted us to be successful on the football side they wouldn't have allowed the current policy to have lasted 6 years.

All we hear about is how the club is doing well financially, how share price is high, how 4th place is like a trophy and a wonderful achievement...stuff the fans don't really give a damn about or at least see as secondary to the on the pitch action.

Exactly, Usmanov is supposed to be the bad guy, and yet the board are virtually doing what people accuse him of wanting to do.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Also, to the op, I found this comment from an article that Nasri Scroreng posted a link to:



Those who continue to laughably claim that Wenger lacks the funds to compete with Man United, could look to the confirmation from Jones’ agent that Arsenal offered higher wages than Man United, and a slightly higher transfer fee also. Ye were saying?

[IBK]

Yes - and that it what's worrying me. It used to be that we missed out in the trasfer market by refusing to spend. Now it looks like we are missing out because our star is, frankly, waning.

[Joker]

It's funny how some seem to deny the obvious, that the board have made great personal gains from this policy (and they have, even if they don't get dividends then by share price alone), the lack of investment means they minimise the risk...if they truly wanted us to be successful on the football side they wouldn't have allowed the current policy to have lasted 6 years.

All we hear about is how the club is doing well financially, how share price is high, how 4th place is like a trophy and a wonderful achievement...stuff the fans don't really give a damn about or at least see as secondary to the on the pitch action.

Exactly right. The board is full of Old Etonian Conservatives who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

[Mr.Singh]

Usmanov may be a Uzbek Gangster/Warlord but he is very successful and if he ordered Russia to invade Georgia man that was a BOSS move...

[Kano]

More accusations, nothing fact at all.

and if you run a business you would be wise to steer clear of anything to do with someone who that lingering over them - im sure they have done their background research

[Kano]

It's funny how some seem to deny the obvious, that the board have made great personal gains from this policy (and they have, even if they don't get dividends then by share price alone).

can you explain how the have as I didn't know about that

[Özim]

can you explain how the have as I didn't know about that
I was referring to Usmanov's comments, but what's clear is that by not spending profits and being profitable they directly benefitting from increased share price. This means that whenever they choose to sell their shares they make a large amount of money, regardless of anything they may or may not get.

[Mr.Singh]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/08_04/PutinUsmanovES_468x386.jpg

[Dog Toffee]

We dont need a sugar dady to compete, we already do compete. We just dont win.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Not sure giving him a place on the board would be equivalent to 'bending over in front of' him.

Wouldn't want him in charge but don't see anything wrong with him getting a place on the board.


It was a metaphor for trust.

I wasn't suggesting you actually bend over in front of him. He'd probably shag you then eat you.

[Alan B'stard]

this week usmanov echoes fan criticisms of the board
last week he wanted arsenal to hire his boy the uzbeki national captain.

being a sugar daddy's plaything has its downsides too you know.

[Toronto Gooner]

this week usmanov echoes fan criticisms of the board
last week he wanted arsenal to hire his boy the uzbeki national captain.

being a sugar daddy's plaything has its downsides too you know.
Totally agree. Does anyone think that Chelsea wanted to buy Shevchenko?

[budesonide]

Totally agree. Does anyone think that Chelsea wanted to buy Shevchenko?

Abrahmovich is chelsea.

[AKBapologist]

:unsure:


No, I'm not asking for a Glaizer style, debt driven take over, and no - I'd be less than thrilled if Usmanov with his questionable history or an Abramovich style meddling owner came in.

[LDG]

:haha:

[Fist of Lehmann]

Totally agree. Does anyone think that Chelsea wanted to buy Shevchenko?

Or that Ancelotti wanted to play Torres? :sarcy:

[Alan B'stard]

Totally agree. Does anyone think that Chelsea wanted to buy Shevchenko?
or to lose ray wilkins shouting 'stay on your facking feet lads'

[Fist of Lehmann]

As long as Kroenke doesn't make us buy Americans we'll be fine. :good:

[LDG]

Bulldozer :bow:

[Toronto Gooner]

As long as Kroenke doesn't make us buy Americans we'll be fine. :good:
Like Freddie Adu?:)

[Kano]

exactly, he's shit

[Marc Overmars]

Freddy Adu. :lol:

I remember him.

[Cripps_orig]

Quality on FM though.

The old FMs that is.

[Marc Overmars]

On FM 05 I always used to poach him before he signed professional terms. He turned into an absolute beast when he hit 18. :bow:

[Cripps_orig]

On FM 05 I always used to poach him before he signed professional terms. He turned into an absolute beast when he hit 18. :bow:

We all did that i reckon. The new ones are shit tbh. That may be down to Arsenal being shit though

[Cripps_orig]

Alisher Usmanov has further increased his stake in Premier League giants Arsenal.
http://img.skysports.com/10/12/218x298/usmanov_2543492.jpgUsmanov: Looking to increase his influence at Arsenal

The Russian billionaire is looking to increase his influence at Arsenal (http://topics.skysports.com/arsenal/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif in the face of a takeover by rival investor Stan Kroenke. (http://topics.skysports.com/Stan+Kroenke/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif
Usmanov's Red & White vehicle, which he jointly owns along with business associate Farhad Moshiri, revealed it had raised its holding to more than 29 per cent.
Kroenke agreed a deal with Arsenal's main shareholders in April and executive management to take over the club and acquire a majority shareholding in Arsenal.
He now controls 67 per cent of the shares in the Gunners.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11670_6998258,00.html

[KSE Comedy Club]

Lets face it, he is the only chance we will ever get at having a 'sugar daddy'

[milla]

Lets face it, he is the only chance we will ever get at having a 'sugar daddy'

He is rich enough. :good:

[AKBapologist]

Tim Payton also made some interesting comments in the article as well, basically stating the self sustaining business model has made us uncompetitive with transfers and wages… he says,


‘It doesn’t seem right that fans are asked to dig ever deeper when we have two billionaires owning 95% of the club'

Bravo to that comment. Self sustaining for me is code for, ‘we stick it to the fans’. Too many people seem to have the idea that self sustaining is like solar panels for our clubs bank account. That money comes from us paying over the odds for tickets. I have no worries about a Billionaire taking over the club and running it their way. What would be the difference bar maybe less of a drive to squeeze every penny out of us? You know, and perhaps a shift in focus from the balance sheet to the starting 11?

From Legrove
http://le-grove.co.uk/2011/07/03/samir-gearing-us-up-to-leave-should-arsenal-be-self-sustaining/


Could anyone do a copy and paste job on the times article?

[AKBapologist]

wrong forum

[AKBapologist]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2010877/Arsenal-longer-attract-genuine-superstar-Martin-Samuel.html
We've got 2 months to prove this statement isn't true... :coffee:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Nothing that happens over the next two months will prove your assertion. We don't need a sugar daddy, just like we don't need a bunch of property developers sucking the lifeblood out of the Club.

We had the resources to easily avoid the clusterfuck this Company has become, we just never had the ambition to realise our potential on the football pitch.

[Boss]

Usmanov's bought another $1.5M worth of shares.

Not sure what the point of that is, really.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2011-07-07-953566244_x.htm?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

When you have $17 billion you don't need a point anymore.

[AKBapologist]

If he has 30% or more stake in the club, the board would be forced to turn over financial accounts to him if he so demanded. So far he has 29.9% or there abouts.

[GP]

He's also fat.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He's not fat, he's big boned!

And fat.

[Elreactor]

There´s always Stan Kroenke to save Arsenal FC and bring the best of the best. Solved!

:sleep:

[IBK]

There´s always Stan Kroenke to save Arsenal FC and bring the best of the best. Solved!

:sleep:

Kroenke: Worst Sugar Daddy ever!

[Mr. Lahey]

If there werent allegations of corrupt business practices and the fact that hes a big blob of shite I would have no problems with him owning the club.

I think hes a fan of football to be honest and its good to have owners like this as they always keep the interests of the fans in mind rather than having a group owning the company. It bothers me when people say "when the sugar daddy gets bored- insert team here- will be ruined. When has this ever happened?? These owners buy the clubs because they are fans of the sport not because they have tons of money and want to feck around with a professional football club.

Mark Cuban who owns the NBA champions Dallas Mavericks is a good example of this. He did everything in his power to bring the fans a championships. He bought the Mavs because he was a genuine fan not because he had so much money that he needed hobby.

Anyhow, thats my take on having a Sugar Daddy. Sadly for football its a game that relys on money to bring players in and out. They have created this with the rules they put in place. The sooner people realise the fact that this is how football is, the better.

[Boss]

We've been valued as the third most valuable football club in the world


Forbes magazine has rated Arsenal as the 7th most valuable sports franchise in the world assessing the club’s worth, following Stan Kroenke’s takeover, at $1.19 billion. Last year the Gunners placed 8th in the rankings valued at $1.18 billion.

Manchester United top the 2011 list valued at $1.86 billion, while Spanish giants Real Madrid, 5th, make up the third football club in the top ten.

German side Bayern Munich (19th), Champions League winners Barcelona (26th), Serie A champions AC Milan (34th), Roman Abramovich’s Chelsea (46th) and Italian giants Juventus (49th) are the only other football sides to make the top fifty.

The rest of the top fifty is made up predominantly of NFL sides although baseball’s New York Yankees place 3rd, while Formula 1 giants Ferrari (13th) and McLaren (37th) also break up the dominance of American Football sides.

Top Fifty Franchises

Manchester United / Football / $1.86 billion
Dallas Cowboys / NFL / $1.81 billion
New York Yankees / MLB / $1.7 billion
Washington Redskins / NFL / $1.55 billion
Real Madrid / Football / $1.45 billion
New England Patriots / NFL / $1.37 billion
Arsenal / Football / $1.19 billion
New York Giants / NFL / $1.18 billion
Houston Texans / NFL / $1.17 billion
New York Jets / NFL / $1.14 billion

http://news.arseblog.com/index.php/2011/07/forbes-rate-arsenal-as-7th-most-valuable-sports-franchise-in-world

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Barca. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

It's quite impressive that we're 7th really given the lack of success. It shows the potential here is huge, whether Wenger is the man to unleash is another matter.

[fakeyank]

It's quite impressive that we're 7th really given the lack of success. It shows the potential here is huge, whether Wenger is the man to unleash is another matter.

AW will do Feck all

:gp:

[Kano]

i guess based on assets, so the stadium probably accounts for huge part of that evaluation

[Master Splinter]

AW will do Feck all

:gp:

Just like he did Feck all to get us into this position in the first place

:gp:

[Letters]

Just like he did Feck all to get us into this position in the first place

:gp:

:gp:

(assuming you're being sarky)

[Mr.Singh]

Arsenal has potential its just a shame that Wenger is the HNIC