Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

[IBK]

The Times did a piece today, analysing how EPL teams have been affected by injury this season. It was entitled
Mourinho stays silent after Chelsea keep their casualties to a minimum
The article calculated how many player weeks each of the top teams have lost this season through injury. First, it looked at the loss of weeks from players likely to be first choice for a starting 11.

The data?


Chelsea’s first-choice team have been absent for a total of only 24 weeks this season, whereas Liverpool’s have missed a combined 57 weeks, Manchester City’s 69 and Arsenal’s 84.

It went further, and looked at the loss of teams' likely first 15.


For the record, by extending the analysis from each club’s leading 11 players to the top 15, the combined weeks missed through injury are 52 for Chelsea, 76 for City, 87 for Liverpool, 135 for United and 152 for Arsenal.

Of course, stats can be manipulated at will - but Arsenal's injury data is shocking - even if we are well used to key players being out.

My first reaction to our last few positive results has been that we have shown, recently, that we can perform against teams below the top 6, and that we know how to scrape top 4 - its doing better than that that is our problem.

But I freely admit that the above stats make me question whether my points of criticism of Wenger are accurate, and whether the question marks over him should be in relation to his fitness regime and his failure to back his first team up properly rather than his ability to read and understand the game.

Am I right to reconsider, or am I falling back into the Arsene 'brainwash' of always looking to explain our failure to win, rather than accepting that he is no longer a good enough football coach to win the league?

[Özim]

The injuries have been a problem, but there's been lots of other problems as well, in the transfer market, regarding tactics, substitutions, blind faith in too many players.

It's also taken him 9 years to look into the injuries, I find this mystifying, we've known about the injuries for years.

IMO he's not a manager for the modern game as he doesn't move with the times and adapt, his attitude towards 4th spot is over the top as well, his reaction is one of having won something major/or being on the verge of winning something major, it shouldn't be.....after 9 years he should be disappointed with 4th again if he gets it.

[IBK]

The injuries have been a problem, but there's been lots of other problems as well, in the transfer market, regarding tactics, substitutions, blind faith in too many players.

It's also taken him 9 years to look into the injuries, I find this mystifying, we've known about the injuries for years.

IMO he's not a manager for the modern game as he doesn't move with the times and adapt.

I agree with you - but the injury stats do make me wonder whether with Ramsey; Ozil and Walcott we would not have had our 2 month disaster? In other words - despite the failings that we know Wenger has (as all managers do) - would a 50% improvement in our fitness stats have meant that these failings would not have operated to sink our title ambitions?

[Özim]

I agree with you - but the injury stats do make me wonder whether with Ramsey; Ozil and Walcott we would not have had our 2 month disaster? In other words - despite the failings that we know Wenger has (as all managers do) - would a 50% improvement in our fitness stats have meant that these failings would not have operated to sink our title ambitions?

IMO I still think we would have collapsed, history shows it's a trait with the recent Wenger teams, we were looking tired in December and there was half a season to go then and since then we've scraped wins. The problem is we just haven't done the necessary in the transfer market, add to this poor tactical nous illustrated by the games against Liverpool and Chelsea where at 1 or 2 nil down we were being overrun and he sat there doing nothing, that's when a manager earns his stars by making changes that affect the flow of the game, he just doesn't

[LDG]

I don't think we would have had enough without that extra striker.

It seems pretty obvious to me that it is the major deficiency in the squad. Something that should have been addressed in the summer, and even with the benefit of doubt, should have been done in January.

The refusal to patch upbthe same problem witnessed against City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Everton, is also the reason.

The injuries have certainly played a part, and perhaps cost us 6 to 8 points? But I'm afraid you never win the league unless you take another couple of scalps from your main rivals.

[IBK]

Fair points both - but is it these reasons rather than Wenger having been left behind tactically that we should focus on?

[Marc Overmars]

I think we were lacking up front to begin with and the injuries just finished us off. Even when we were leading the table I never particularly thought our football was that good, more efficient than anything. Injuries are certainly a problem though, it happens every season. Pretty obvious something is not right with how fitness is handled.

Who knows, we might have a few more points had key players been fit, but injuries are something every club has to legislate for. Us more so than anyone.

Nothing will change my view that Wenger is yesterdays man now. Rodgers and Liverpool are certified proof of that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think we were lacking up front to begin with and the injuries just finished us off. Even when we were leading the table I never particularly thought our football was that good, more efficient than anything. Injuries are certainly a problem though, it happens every season. Pretty obvious something is not right with how fitness is handled.

Who knows, we might have a few more points had key players been fit, but injuries are something every club has to legislate for. Us more so than anyone.

Nothing will change my view that Wenger is yesterdays man now. Rodgers and Liverpool are certified proof of that.

Ugh i am sick of hearing that Rodgers is some kind of tactical genius, he has in Suarez the third best player in the world at the moment, he has pace in his team that allows them to overwhelm most defences and he is getting good performances (at times) from players in his side that are at best distinctly average and at worse...apalling.

He might shoehorn his team into slightly different formation, but the result is the same...that against a lot of sides they blitz them early on and shoot their bolt and look leggy and lethargic for the rest of the match (evidenced in the second half performances against city and norwich).

Their defence in terms of personnel and defensive set up is near on diabolical for a side that will win the title, don't get me wrong Rodgers has surpassed himself but i don't see anything about him that makes him a genius of any kind. This is not defending Wenger in any way, shape or form but if you are able to spend 100m on players since you joined the club and mount a title challenge in a season where there is a bit of a power vacum it makes you a good manager, not necessarily a great one.

Whilst fair play to him, he's proved to people that he's no longer an incompitent who is badly out of place as manager of that club, it still makes me shudder that he is thought of so highly....let's see where he is in a few seasons time.

[IBK]

Ugh i am sick of hearing that Rodgers is some kind of tactical genius, he has in Suarez the third best player in the world at the moment, he has pace in his team that allows them to overwhelm most defences and he is getting good performances (at times) from players in his side that are at best distinctly average and at worse...apalling.

He might shoehorn his team into slightly different formation, but the result is the same...that against a lot of sides they blitz them early on and shoot their bolt and look leggy and lethargic for the rest of the match (evidenced in the second half performances against city and norwich).

Their defence in terms of personnel and defensive set up is near on diabolical for a side that will win the title, don't get me wrong Rodgers has surpassed himself but i don't see anything about him that makes him a genius of any kind. This is not defending Wenger in any way, shape or form but if you are able to spend 100m on players since you joined the club and mount a title challenge in a season where there is a bit of a power vacum it makes you a good manager, not necessarily a great one.

Whilst fair play to him, he's proved to people that he's no longer an incompitent who is badly out of place as manager of that club, it still makes me shudder that he is thought of so highly....let's see where he is in a few seasons time.

I started my Rogers thread before seeing this. You may well agree with me...

[Marc Overmars]

Ugh i am sick of hearing that Rodgers is some kind of tactical genius, he has in Suarez the third best player in the world at the moment, he has pace in his team that allows them to overwhelm most defences and he is getting good performances (at times) from players in his side that are at best distinctly average and at worse...apalling.

He might shoehorn his team into slightly different formation, but the result is the same...that against a lot of sides they blitz them early on and shoot their bolt and look leggy and lethargic for the rest of the match (evidenced in the second half performances against city and norwich).

Their defence in terms of personnel and defensive set up is near on diabolical for a side that will win the title, don't get me wrong Rodgers has surpassed himself but i don't see anything about him that makes him a genius of any kind. This is not defending Wenger in any way, shape or form but if you are able to spend 100m on players since you joined the club and mount a title challenge in a season where there is a bit of a power vacum it makes you a good manager, not necessarily a great one.

Whilst fair play to him, he's proved to people that he's no longer an incompitent who is badly out of place as manager of that club, it still makes me shudder that he is thought of so highly....let's see where he is in a few seasons time.

I never said he was a genius or anything like that. In fact it shows Wenger up even more that Liverpool have not even had to be special to get the job done.

[IBK]

I never said he was a genius or anything like that. In fact it shows Wenger up even more that Liverpool have not even had to be special to get the job done.

I kind of feel the same...with qualifications.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I don't think we would have had enough without that extra striker.

It seems pretty obvious to me that it is the major deficiency in the squad. Something that should have been addressed in the summer, and even with the benefit of doubt, should have been done in January.

The refusal to patch upbthe same problem witnessed against City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Everton, is also the reason.

The injuries have certainly played a part, and perhaps cost us 6 to 8 points? But I'm afraid you never win the league unless you take another couple of scalps from your main rivals.

The findings are quite compelling. If we accept that having fewer injuries would have resulted in 6-8 points more, then that puts us quite comfortably in second place with a chance of winning the actual league with the run in being easier than Liverpool's.

So actually even without the extra striker, suggesting we would be 6-8 points better off with fewer injuries means we might have won the league in any case. All that is to say, maybe the familiarity with the horrendous injury situation has caused us to downplay its significance this season.

I still think Wenger's deficiencies are plain to see and the lack of quality in the forward position is a huge factor, like you or anyone else does, but perhaps we don't cut quite the hopeless sorry arse reflection we see looking back at us....

I do think it is high time Wenger read (or probably re-read) the art of war, borrowed a few mantras and got the edge back. Seek to crush your opponent, not simply defeat him. With that attitude we might be looking at his third double and very few would be campaigning for his beheading right now.

[Power n Glory]

I agree with you - but the injury stats do make me wonder whether with Ramsey; Ozil and Walcott we would not have had our 2 month disaster? In other words - despite the failings that we know Wenger has (as all managers do) - would a 50% improvement in our fitness stats have meant that these failings would not have operated to sink our title ambitions?

We keep having the same injury problems and I would have thought Wenger and the staff would have learned by now but here we are again. A couple of seasons ago, Wenger admitted to overplaying Wilshere and that caused his injury. When he was recovering, he said he wouldn't rush him back but he went against his judgement, rushed him back and he was injured again. This season he admits to overplaying Ramsey and Giroud causing the form drop in Giroud and injury to Ramsey. If you look at the form drop in Giroud and Ozil before he was injured, you have to wonder if we'd have burned out all the other players if they weren't injured. Something has to change in the way we train and I seriously doubt we'll see this because Wenger seems reluctant to adapt. I don't want to hear the word 'unlucky' when talking of our injury problems and that's what seems to be ringing out of the Arsenal camp to explain our title race end.

[Letters]

It does annoy me when people go overboard about Wenger and act like he's this imbecile who has no clue what he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager. But he obviously has his flaws. Tactics is one of them, he's not a manager of Ferguson's calibre who can win a title with a worse squad than his rivals. Our titles back in the day were won because we were better than everyone else. You don't need to be a tactical mastermind when you've got players like Henry and Bergkamp and a spine of Vieira, Campbell and Seaman. We were a fantastic side back then and with the billionaires sticking their beaks in I don't think we'll ever have a squad better than our rivals

IMO our collapse this season has been more a case of running out of steam and not having the depth to cope with injuries than 'bottling it'. We've won enough 'must win' games this year to suggest we can cope with some pressure and we've got to the Cup Final, you don't do that if you can't handle any pressure.

Liverpool have done brilliantly this year but they've not been in Europe this year and they've had one of the best players in world football stay fit all year, one injury to Suarez and they wouldn't be where they are right now and let's see if they sustain it next year with the added pressure of CL football, especially if someone manages to turn Suarez's head in the summer.

The injury problems need looking at, it kills us every year and it can't keep on being bad luck. And we obviously need more up front. The Ozil transfer and the big bid for Suarez last summer did suggest a new ambition and financial clout, continue that this summer and we could go very close next year. If we win the Cup then I think that could be a springboard to greater things, I'm not sure that's a great time to be changing manager. We should start preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal either way but if he keeps us top 4 again, as it looks like he will, then there's no rush to change managers. Things could be better but, as ManYoo are finding out, they could be a whole lot worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

All good points Letters, but you still can't escape the inevitable conclusion that if we want to match our rivals like the chavs and the gypos we really should be spending £90mill a year to lose. Right now we're losing at a profit. That's why Wenger needs to go and somebody like Mancini or Grant or Hughes or Eriksson or AVB or Benitez or Di Matteo or Kidd or Pellegrini or Mourinho or Viali or Scolari or Hiddink or Ranieri or Ancelotti or Wilkins need to come in, preferably one after the other once per year, or maybe twice. Or three time.

Or four.

[Özim]

We should keep our next manager for 40,000,001 years if possible.

[Özim]

It does annoy me when people go overboard about Wenger and act like he's this imbecile who has no clue what he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager. But he obviously has his flaws. Tactics is one of them, he's not a manager of Ferguson's calibre who can win a title with a worse squad than his rivals. Our titles back in the day were won because we were better than everyone else. You don't need to be a tactical mastermind when you've got players like Henry and Bergkamp and a spine of Vieira, Campbell and Seaman. We were a fantastic side back then and with the billionaires sticking their beaks in I don't think we'll ever have a squad better than our rivals

IMO our collapse this season has been more a case of running out of steam and not having the depth to cope with injuries than 'bottling it'. We've won enough 'must win' games this year to suggest we can cope with some pressure and we've got to the Cup Final, you don't do that if you can't handle any pressure.

Liverpool have done brilliantly this year but they've not been in Europe this year and they've had one of the best players in world football stay fit all year, one injury to Suarez and they wouldn't be where they are right now and let's see if they sustain it next year with the added pressure of CL football, especially if someone manages to turn Suarez's head in the summer.

The injury problems need looking at, it kills us every year and it can't keep on being bad luck. And we obviously need more up front. The Ozil transfer and the big bid for Suarez last summer did suggest a new ambition and financial clout, continue that this summer and we could go very close next year. If we win the Cup then I think that could be a springboard to greater things, I'm not sure that's a great time to be changing manager. We should start preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal either way but if he keeps us top 4 again, as it looks like he will, then there's no rush to change managers. Things could be better but, as ManYoo are finding out, they could be a whole lot worse.

I'm not sure you can go too overboard after 9 years of seeing the same things over and over again, you can literally disappear for a year without needing to worry you've missed anything as the same thing happens every season.

The collapse is a combination of a lack of desire for the fight and tiredness, but that's due to a poor transfer policy and over reliance on players who just aren't good enough.

As for Liverpool this excuse about best player etc is nonsense, we had RVP on fire one season and he didn't win us the title, Liverpool have got a number of players who have been weighing in, having a top player is part and parcel of that, we had several many years ago was that an excuse for us winning or was it just what winning teams have?

Liverpool have basically been the best team in the 2nd part of the season, Champions often come on strong in that time, we did in 98, that's usually when titles are won, whenever we are in a position though the pressure, injuries, lack of desire and tiredness lead to us collapsing, it's a mental thing due to a manager unable to instill desire in his players.

It's also been shown that Rodgers adapts to the opposition and sets his team up to deal with his opponents, that's what good managers should do and Wenger just doesn't.

We need a few more top quality players IMO, in big games we're just too lightweight and don't have enough worldies, we also really need a new manager with new ideas who actually does what a manager should do, use tactics, make changes to affect games, sign players the team needs in the position we need and doesn't rely on injury prone players for years on end.

As MO rightly pointed out, Rodgers success is a damning reflection on us, Wenger has tried and failed for 9 years to do what Rodgers has done in two, he's told us his teams are the best, 2% away and ready for big things, those have never materialised.

[Globalgunner]

It does annoy me when people go overboard about Wenger and act like he's this imbecile who has no clue what he's doing. He's clearly still a very good manager. But he obviously has his flaws. Tactics is one of them, he's not a manager of Ferguson's calibre who can win a title with a worse squad than his rivals. Our titles back in the day were won because we were better than everyone else. You don't need to be a tactical mastermind when you've got players like Henry and Bergkamp and a spine of Vieira, Campbell and Seaman. We were a fantastic side back then and with the billionaires sticking their beaks in I don't think we'll ever have a squad better than our rivals

IMO our collapse this season has been more a case of running out of steam and not having the depth to cope with injuries than 'bottling it'. We've won enough 'must win' games this year to suggest we can cope with some pressure and we've got to the Cup Final, you don't do that if you can't handle any pressure.

Liverpool have done brilliantly this year but they've not been in Europe this year and they've had one of the best players in world football stay fit all year, one injury to Suarez and they wouldn't be where they are right now and let's see if they sustain it next year with the added pressure of CL football, especially if someone manages to turn Suarez's head in the summer.

The injury problems need looking at, it kills us every year and it can't keep on being bad luck. And we obviously need more up front. The Ozil transfer and the big bid for Suarez last summer did suggest a new ambition and financial clout, continue that this summer and we could go very close next year. If we win the Cup then I think that could be a springboard to greater things, I'm not sure that's a great time to be changing manager. We should start preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal either way but if he keeps us top 4 again, as it looks like he will, then there's no rush to change managers. Things could be better but, as ManYoo are finding out, they could be a whole lot worse.


If you re read your post the first paragraph says everything and nullifys everything you've said after. He won titles when he had better players than everyone else and still IMO he grossly underperformed with those players who should have won back to back titles, who should have at least reached a CL final and won it. Wenger was the weak link even then and a bertter manager woukld have achieved those landmarks.

fast forward to 2008, a team with less physique but arguably as much talent technically, again the same crappy collapse.

2014. A much worse team with a deteriorating, stuck in a rut manager. You tell me what the way forward is?. Wenger may not be an imbecile and clueless. but he is grossly inadequate when it comes to top line management and basically not fit for purpose. Like a sports car for a family of 5 or a station wagon entered at Le Mans. Sentiments apart, he should just leave. We've had enough of his indulgent idiosyncracies. He will never tire of making the same mistakes year after year, I am fed up of it.

Next season City, Chelsea will improve, Pool will make the CL money count, United look like dumping Moyes, We will stay the same as Wenger has won us the FA cup so lets stick with him an FA cup won on the back of 4 straight home draws.

We will probably have to rely on the Ebola virus decimating our oppositions squads to ensure our top 4 place, cos we sure as hell wont win the league

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If you re read your post the first paragraph says everything and nullifys everything you've said after. He won titles when he had better players than everyone else and still IMO he grossly underperformed with those players who should have won back to back titles, who should have at least reached a CL final and won it. Wenger was the weak link even then and a bertter manager woukld have achieved those landmarks.

fast forward to 2008, a team with less physique but arguably as much talent technically, again the same crappy collapse.

2014. A much worse team with a deteriorating, stuck in a rut manager. You tell me what the way forward is?. Wenger may not be an imbecile and clueless. but he is grossly inadequate when it comes to top line management and basically not fit for purpose. Like a sports car for a family of 5 or a station wagon entered at Le Mans. Sentiments apart, he should just leave. We've had enough of his indulgent idiosyncracies. He will never tire of making the same mistakes year after year, I am fed up of it.

Next season City, Chelsea will improve, Pool will make the CL money count, United look like dumping Moyes, We will stay the same as Wenger has won us the FA cup so lets stick with him an FA cup won on the back of 4 straight home draws.

We will probably have to rely on the Ebola virus decimating our oppositions squads to ensure our top 4 place, cos we sure as hell wont win the league

In this game if you stand still you invariably end up going backwards, what made Wenger special was his ability to identify burgeoning talent at a young age and turn potential into achievement. But the problem is that ability is null and void when other clubs became wise to it and employed vast scouting networks to create the Wenger model on a giant scale and that's why potential used to be 500k, and now it costs you 20 million. The same with his approach to dietary requirements and coaching at the time revolutionary but now seemingly self evident and rather old hat.
The stagnancy is not just there in the same results and performances year in, year out its evident in how little the back room staff has changed in 17 years, the problem with Wenger is that he feels a loyalty to these people who have served him well once but now are spent and isn't ruthless and calculating enough to go back to the drawing board. It's the same with players, he has wasted too much time on players who are either perennially injured or not good enough out of a sense of loyalty and in many respects this loyalty has never been paid back to him.
Wenger does not seem to want to change his approach and that's why I want him to go, but at the same time as I have consistently said I want him to go with our gratitude not our contempt ringing in his ears.

[LDG]

In this game if you stand still you invariably end up going backwards, what made Wenger special was his ability to identify burgeoning talent at a young age and turn potential into achievement. But the problem is that ability is null and void when other clubs became wise to it and employed vast scouting networks to create the Wenger model on a giant scale and that's why potential used to be 500k, and now it costs you 20 million. The same with his approach to dietary requirements and coaching at the time revolutionary but now seemingly self evident and rather old hat.
The stagnancy is not just there in the same results and performances year in, year out its evident in how little the back room staff has changed in 17 years, the problem with Wenger is that he feels a loyalty to these people who have served him well once but now are spent and isn't ruthless and calculating enough to go back to the drawing board. It's the same with players, he has wasted too much time on players who are either perennially injured or not good enough out of a sense of loyalty and in many respects this loyalty has never been paid back to him.
Wenger does not seem to want to change his approach and that's why I want him to go, but at the same time as I have consistently said I want him to go with our gratitude not our contempt ringing in his ears.

Well said.

Whilst most of us agree that his time is at an end, it still disgusts me the vitriol, shit and internet spew being showered on him.

How can you call yourself a fan of a club, when your first priority is to slag off anything and everything about us?

Yes Wenger needs to go. Yes, he is guilty of stagnating. But he has also, lets not forget, kept us from slipping into a different part of the table, using the very strengths we praised him for in his early tenure.

Time for a fresh face to build on the solid foundations. But I can't tell you how nausiating it is to be associated with the filth who sit behind their keyboards throwing turds, with such little knowledge of football to back it up. Opinion is one thing. Being able to articulate it is another. And if you have nothing positive to say, just fuck off will ya.

[Letters]

He won titles when he had better players than everyone else and still IMO he grossly underperformed with those players who should have won back to back titles, who should have at least reached a CL final and won it. Wenger was the weak link even then and a bertter manager woukld have achieved those landmarks.

Er, you know those 'better players' didn't just fall out of the sky? Wenger assembled one of the best ever PL sides, certainly the best Arsenal side I've ever seen, and got them playing with fantastic style. A lot of the old guard credit his fitness regime with extending their careers. We won a sack of trophies and you're focussing on the fact that the side could have done more? Sheesh.


FA cup won on the back of 4 straight home draws.

And who were those some of those home draws against? Spurs - they're not a great side but they are our local rivals and will most likely finish top 6 this year. Everton - just the other day people were arguing that they're better than us, not that day they weren't and while I think we will finish above them it's going to be tight. Liverpool - champions elect.
As poor as we were in the semi-final we were playing the holders who had beaten City in last year's final and again in this season's quarter final. Beat them away too. We've hardly had an easy run, we've earned our place in the final.

You asked what the way forward is, I've said I think we need to start preparing for a post Wenger Arsenal. Whatever you think of him he's getting to the age where we need to think about a time he retires or moves upstairs. But if we win the FA Cup and finish 4th then that will have been a decent season. Not many managers would be getting sacked with that outcome. Utd have shown this year what replacing a top manager with a #decent one can do, we need to plan this carefully. Wenger is clearly still a top manager, yes he has failings but so does every manager.

[Globalgunner]

My question still remains unanswered. Do you at this stage still back Wenger to see us into top 4 next season or does that target as derisory as it is still not apply. Do we need to lower our targets every year as Wenger gets worse at his job.

And please dont pick and choose benchmarks. You agree that Spurs are a club bebeath us so why use them as a standard. Wigan beat City but city beat Bayern at home, does that make Wigan masters of Europe, This is the samer wigan that were humiliated by Millwall a few days before.

Is Wenger the future, I mean next seasons future

[Letters]

I'm not sure you can go too overboard after 9 years of seeing the same things over and over again

Well, you can and you do. Fine, you don't rate him. You think he should be replaced. A fairly reasonable opinion and one which is shared by an increasing number of Gooners. But the way you act is disgraceful, you post like a bitter ex, picking on everything he says or does. And you fawn over opposition managers and ignore the way they act (did you see Mourinho's interview on Saturday, it was embarrassing, had Wenger said anything like that you'd have been all over it).


As for Liverpool this excuse about best player etc is nonsense, we had RVP on fire one season and he didn't win us the title

You keep referring to the 'Suarez excuse'. I have no idea what you mean by that. All people have said is that he is the difference between them being champions elect and a top 4 side. No-one has said he is the only reason they're where they are, there are other factors which have been mentioned.
The season you're talking about we were an awful side. RvP did make a difference, on that occasion he was the difference between us finishing top 4 and being in mid-table. He's not as good as Suarez but even Suarez wouldn't have made that side champions. Of course you need other good players around. IMO this Arsenal side + Suarez would have won the title this year, or gone very close. The main thing we've lacked is a top class striker. Our defence an midfield have been fine. As well as Rodgers has done this year, they need to sustain that level and there are various reasons why I don't believe they will. Time will tell whether I'm right.

[Letters]

My question still remains unanswered. Do you at this stage still back Wenger to see us into top 4 next season or does that target as derisory as it is still not apply. Do we need to lower our targets every year as Wenger gets worse at his job.
In what way has Wenger got worse at his job? Others have arguably got better.
How many years have people been saying we'd drop out of the top 4?

[Power n Glory]

Moyes was never a decent manager. There is no evidence in his career to suggest he was capable of turning things around at Man Utd. They might as well have appointed Sam Allardyce. It was that much of gamble. I wouldn’t look at Man Utd as an example because that’s a rare case. Top clubs hardly get it so wrong that the Champions drop to 7th in the league.

[Globalgunner]

In what way has Wenger got worse at his job? Others have arguably got better.
How many years have people been saying we'd drop out of the top 4?

In his first 8 years we were always top 2
In the 2nd 8 years we are now struggling to make top 4.

If the opposition keeps getting better I humbly submit so should we

[Letters]

In his first 8 years we were always top 2
In the 2nd 8 years we are now struggling to make top 8.

If the opposition keeps getting better I humbly submit so should we

The opposition have billionaires fueling them now. And please don't reply to say Liverpool haven't, they haven't consistently been up there and they have spent a fair bit of money over the past couple of seasons. I don't believe they'll sustain their current level.

EDIT: Did you mean top 8? :blink:

[Globalgunner]

What you belive and reality are not always the same thing I have learnt.
Still waiting...top 4 next season Yes or no

[Letters]

What you belive and reality are not always the same thing I have learnt.
Have you learned that by predicting every year we'll not finish top 4? (You may not have, plenty have).
There are reasons I'm sceptical about Liverpoop sustaining this level, I have outlined them elsewhere
(I typed Liverpoop by accident but it made me laugh so I've decided to leave it :d)

Still waiting...top 4 next season Yes or no
Yes :good:

[Globalgunner]

Have you learned that by predicting every year we'll not finish top 4? (You may not have, plenty have).
There are reasons I'm sceptical about Liverpoop sustaining this level, I have outlined them elsewhere
(I typed Liverpoop by accident but it made me laugh so I've decided to leave it :d)

Yes :good:

The top 8 was a typo.

I have my doubts but at least Letters you are now on record

[Niall_Quinn]

Well said.

Whilst most of us agree that his time is at an end, it still disgusts me the vitriol, shit and internet spew being showered on him.

How can you call yourself a fan of a club, when your first priority is to slag off anything and everything about us?

Yes Wenger needs to go. Yes, he is guilty of stagnating. But he has also, lets not forget, kept us from slipping into a different part of the table, using the very strengths we praised him for in his early tenure.

Time for a fresh face to build on the solid foundations. But I can't tell you how nausiating it is to be associated with the filth who sit behind their keyboards throwing turds, with such little knowledge of football to back it up. Opinion is one thing. Being able to articulate it is another. And if you have nothing positive to say, just fuck off will ya.

Slagging Wenger has become a hobby, I'm waiting to see how creative the "yes, but..." crew can be if we win the cup.

[Letters]

There are some people on here who I genuinely believe hope we lose the final so they can say "See? See?" and high five themselves.


Twats.

[AKBapologist]

Liverpool played there 40th game this weekend. We played it in February. Think about that for a minute.

And yes, the op is right. His biggest failing is his inability to build a balanced squad. Despite its "tactical failings" (completely over blown) - when the man has had the right squad to choose from there are few better. Unfortunately, he can't be trusted to judge what that is any more.

[pakgunner]

The injuries have been a problem, but there's been lots of other problems as well, in the transfer market, regarding tactics, substitutions, blind faith in too many players.

It's also taken him 9 years to look into the injuries, I find this mystifying, we've known about the injuries for years.

IMO he's not a manager for the modern game as he doesn't move with the times and adapt, his attitude towards 4th spot is over the top as well, his reaction is one of having won something major/or being on the verge of winning something major, it shouldn't be.....after 9 years he should be disappointed with 4th again if he gets it.:gp: ground hog day

[Özim]

Well, you can and you do. Fine, you don't rate him. You think he should be replaced. A fairly reasonable opinion and one which is shared by an increasing number of Gooners. But the way you act is disgraceful, you post like a bitter ex, picking on everything he says or does. And you fawn over opposition managers and ignore the way they act (did you see Mourinho's interview on Saturday, it was embarrassing, had Wenger said anything like that you'd have been all over it).

I don't like the way he does thing that's a fact, he BS so much and as far as I can see doesn't give a toss about the fans all he seems to care about is his players and making a profit and I'm frankly sick of it and him, these people that bow to the very mention of his name like he's some sort of god are entitled to I just don't agree. He's had a great job earning a f*ck load of money, people treat him like he's been working for a pittance and out of the goodness of his heart and that we should owe him our lives or something. I respect the fact he built a great team for half his career with us and that was a great feat as a manager, but I don't see have the view that I should praise him left right and centre like he's some sort of messiah because IMO he's failed the fans in recent years, I'm sorry if you don't like it but that's the way it is.

You guys need to listen to yourselves, you think you're better than me because you do this or do that and it's IMO disgraceful the way you treat people who don't tow the line, people are entitled to their opinions without the need to be labelled idiots, I'd say more likely it's the people who choose to throw these random insults at people that are narrow minded and lack any sort of perspective.

As for other managers, for a start Wenger is more relevant to me, he affects how my team does so I will be more critical if I'm not happy, the managers I have praise for are those that deliver and win or at least doe everything then can to achieve this, something I'm sorry to say Mr Wenger doesn't and I don't want a manager like him around...as I've said before he's content with 4th place and won't ever do what we need to get better and that's not a great manager to me.



You keep referring to the 'Suarez excuse'. I have no idea what you mean by that. All people have said is that he is the difference between them being champions elect and a top 4 side. No-one has said he is the only reason they're where they are, there are other factors which have been mentioned.
The season you're talking about we were an awful side. RvP did make a difference, on that occasion he was the difference between us finishing top 4 and being in mid-table. He's not as good as Suarez but even Suarez wouldn't have made that side champions. Of course you need other good players around. IMO this Arsenal side + Suarez would have won the title this year, or gone very close. The main thing we've lacked is a top class striker. Our defence an midfield have been fine. As well as Rodgers has done this year, they need to sustain that level and there are various reasons why I don't believe they will. Time will tell whether I'm right.

Why mention it then, he's part of the team and he is there and there's no reason to think he'll leave now, they don't want to sell, he's going to be a title winner and he's signed a new contract. I think it's an excuse because you're trying to belittle their achievement, Sturridge has scored 23 odd goals as well and was scoring when Suarez wasn't, then there's Sterling who have been a revelation and Gerrard who has used his experience to run the show from midfield.

Your claim is like people saying yeah we won the title but we had Henry and without him we wouldn't have, that's obvious but it's kinda irrelevant, he's part of their team. Regardless of what happen now, Rodgers has won the title, I'm sure he'll continue to try and improve but the fact remains he's delivered a major trophy in two seasons in a day when you complain about the Billionaire clubs every other day.

[pakgunner]

Our style of football is no longer beautiful to the eye, we are a poor-man's version of Barcelona. The last Arsenal squad that was truly impressive was the 07/08 team that just lost the plot due to a horrific injury to Eduardo, in terms of balance that squad was the best since the invincibles era( maybe up to 04/05/06 ) At the moment this team hasn't competed against the top teams not even close, and until Wenger finds a more pro-active approach on how to play our main rivals he will never be seen as the manager to take this club forward regardless of the FA cup result.

[Özim]

In what way has Wenger got worse at his job? Others have arguably got better.
How many years have people been saying we'd drop out of the top 4?

Do you really need someone to answer that? Have you compared his record in the 1st half of his career and 2nd part, have you seen the players he signed then compared to now, have you seen the way they played football compared to now?

[Özim]

Slagging Wenger has become a hobby, I'm waiting to see how creative the "yes, but..." crew can be if we win the cup.

A cup he's lacked respect for and from what we've seen in the last 10 years not really cared about, likewise a lot of the fans.

I think the FA Cup is great incidentally, but I find it ironic that some people are suddenly rating it as a great achievement when all they've done is slag it off for years and belittled the achievement when the likes of Portsmouth etc won it.

[Marc Overmars]

And yes, the op is right. His biggest failing is his inability to build a balanced squad. Despite its "tactical failings" (completely over blown) - when the man has had the right squad to choose from there are few better. Unfortunately, he can't be trusted to judge what that is any more.

This is what I don't understand about him. Our squad is saturated with the same type of footballer and it's needed to be leveled out for some time now. He seems to have ignored signing the type of players that made him so successful in the first place.

[Power n Glory]

Why has this thread gone on attack other posters for their views? This has been done to death and it’s the same culprits that keep dragging it up. (LDG, Letters and NQ).

Whenever someone talks about the frustrating issues we see each season, you guys take issue with the poster or the harsh words for Wenger instead of the real crux of the issue. Threads get bogged down in this back and forth abuse, i.e calling fans ‘filth’, ‘twats’ sarcy comments as usual and it’s ironic that these same posters are calling for the abuse of Wenger to stop. Nobody on this thread has gone as far as that when talking about Wenger.

Back to IBK’s original post, the question is, has Wenger been left behind tactically or is it more of a case of injuries and training. Personally, I feel it’s both and we’ve seen the same issues over the past 9 years so I doubt things will change. He won’t buy to bolster the numbers and even when we’ve seen the effects fatigue can have on the squad, he won’t rotate and sub players when exhausted. It’s a catch 22 and we’re stuck in limbo with him.

[Özim]

This is what I don't understand about him. Our squad is saturated with the same type of footballer and it's needed to be leveled out for some time now. He seems to have ignored signing the type of players that made him so successful in the first place.

Absolutely, I find it strange how he achieved massive success then did the polar opposite with regards style, type of players, mentality etc.

It's just weird IMO, some claimed it was to win the CL, as it's turned out it's made no difference as he's failed to do so.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Slagging Wenger has become a hobby, I'm waiting to see how creative the "yes, but..." crew can be if we win the cup.

I think there are legitimate question marks over his future even with the fa cup, but AW and the "c" word are far too synonymous for my liking.
I'm of the elk, where i want the man to prove me wrong because i still like and respect him, but as time has gone on i have lost "belief" that he can.

[Marc Overmars]

Slagging Wenger has become a hobby, I'm waiting to see how creative the "yes, but..." crew can be if we win the cup.

Weren't you of the opinion winning the cup meant F all anyway?

[Letters]

Do you really need someone to answer that? Have you compared his record in the 1st half of his career and 2nd part, have you seen the players he signed then compared to now, have you seen the way they played football compared to now?
And you think the only explanation for that is Wenger getting worse at his job?
There are so many obvious other factors.

[Kano]

The Times did a piece today, analysing how EPL teams have been affected by injury this season. It was entitled
Mourinho stays silent after Chelsea keep their casualties to a minimum
The article calculated how many player weeks each of the top teams have lost this season through injury. First, it looked at the loss of weeks from players likely to be first choice for a starting 11.

The data?



It went further, and looked at the loss of teams' likely first 15.



Of course, stats can be manipulated at will - but Arsenal's injury data is shocking - even if we are well used to key players being out.

My first reaction to our last few positive results has been that we have shown, recently, that we can perform against teams below the top 6, and that we know how to scrape top 4 - its doing better than that that is our problem.

But I freely admit that the above stats make me question whether my points of criticism of Wenger are accurate, and whether the question marks over him should be in relation to his fitness regime and his failure to back his first team up properly rather than his ability to read and understand the game.

Am I right to reconsider, or am I falling back into the Arsene 'brainwash' of always looking to explain our failure to win, rather than accepting that he is no longer a good enough football coach to win the league?
I think the results away to the top four this seasons says it all when it comes to the discrepancy between his ability now and the teams ahead of us. Those hammerings were purely down to lack of preparation in terms of our set-up and approach. Of course, we had personnel missing for some of those matches but that still does not allow for how open we left ourselves. In fact, looking back at our record against the top four across the past few years shows us that in the games against the better prepared teams, we come up short.

You can roll out a group of good players like ours and let them play their game against outside the top six and we'll come up trumps on most occasions. Better players can generally figure out a way to beat those not on their level. Put them up against a team with players on an equal footing and you need to find that extra edge to give you an advantage.

He won't change his approach to games nor will he change our training methods at his age. He is still a good manager, just not good enough for what we need anymore.

[Özim]

And you think the only explanation for that is Wenger getting worse at his job?
There are so many obvious other factors.

I think that's a big part yes, he changed the style of player and the types of players signed and the result is there for all to see, our football isn't as good or as effective, we're predictable and seem to lack any real leaders or players who will take the game by the scruff of the neck or change the flow when things aren't working. Tactictally he's also been left wanting, this may not have been so relevant in the past as he had players that organised for him, but nowadays his lack of tactical nous is badly exposed.

Liverpool have pretty much shown you can compete, OK so they've played less matches, but you'll probably find they sign players in the summer to legislate for CL football.

[Letters]

these people that bow to the very mention of his name like he's some sort of god are entitled to I just don't agree.
Who does that?
Seriously. Who on here does that?
Stop being ridiculous.


people treat him like he's been working for a pittance and out of the goodness of his heart and that we should owe him our lives or something.
No. No they don't. Literally no-one has done that.


I should praise him left right and centre like he's some sort of messiah

Yes. Again. Literally no-one does that and no-one is suggesting you should either.
Are the only two options to praise everything he does or criticise everything he does and waste no opportunity to have a dig at him.
Like I said, it's like you're some bitter ex who can see no good in anything he does.


I think it's an excuse because you're trying to belittle their achievement

No I'm not. Liverpool have come from nowhere and suddenly look like they'll win the title. If they do it'll be a fantastic achievement.
But there have been discussions about how they've done it and I am others have responded to the "ZOMG! Rodgers is a genius!!!1!!1!!" comments by looking at factors which have led to their success this season. Suarez is one, there are others though which I've been over previously.

And yes, I do grumble about the billionaire clubs as should anyone who loves football and doesn't like how it's become a business.

[Letters]

I think that's a big part yes.
So the other clubs catching up with our fitness regime, creating global scouting networks to rival Wenger's knowledge of the game, bringing in better, foreign coaches and being fuelled by billionaires while we've been going through a huge stadium move and had poor commercial deals...you don't think any of those are factors as big as Wenger apparently getting worse.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Football has changed massively while he's been with us and IMO part of the problem with Wenger is that he hasn't changed.

[I am invisible]

...Am I right to reconsider, or am I falling back into the Arsene 'brainwash' of always looking to explain our failure to win, rather than accepting that he is no longer a good enough football coach to win the league?

Maybe it's neither mate? You are allowed to have an opinion that doesn't fall into one of these ridiculously polar camps that you're made to feel that you have to follow [where you have to either blindly support everything the manager does, or obstinately find fault with everything he does]. If you're opinion is that he does some things well, and some things badly - that he's been unlucky in some respects, whilst bringing other problems on himself - then that's fine. I imagine it's where a lot of posters on here sit...

[Özim]

Who does that?
Seriously. Who on here does that?
Stop being ridiculous.


No. No they don't. Literally no-one has done that.



Yes. Again. Literally no-one does that and no-one is suggesting you should either.
Are the only two options to praise everything he does or criticise everything he does and waste no opportunity to have a dig at him.
Like I said, it's like you're some bitter ex who can see no good in anything he does.

There's definitely people that do, I've lost that respect for Wenger I use to have and that's a lot in part to the way he treats the fans, nothing he says or does seems to consider the fans, it seems to be about his players and his targets...I'd have a lot more respect for him if he was more honest and instead of pretending we're fantastic admitting we're not there and then focussing on improving things.

I'm not bitter, I'm just tired of him, nothing changes, same comments, same methods, same praise, same style same everything and IMO he's also very patronising, his interviews might be shrugged off by people as media talk, however all of his words are also heard by the fans thus he should think more carefully before speaking about certain things.

So yeah I don't have much good to say about him, we're going nowhere with him in charge and he does a poor job of selling any kind of vision he has as well with his blinkered approach.



No I'm not. Liverpool have come from nowhere and suddenly look like they'll win the title. If they do it'll be a fantastic achievement.
But there have been discussions about how they've done it and I am others have responded to the "ZOMG! Rodgers is a genius!!!1!!1!!" comments by looking at factors which have led to their success this season. Suarez is one, there are others though which I've been over previously.

And yes, I do grumble about the billionaire clubs as should anyone who loves football and doesn't like how it's become a business.

Rodgers has done a great job to be honest, he's the guy that implemented the style and he stuck youngster in and gave them a chance to shine amongst seasoned professionals (Wenger use to this incidentally, a few youngsters amongst some quality experienced players), he changed tactics according to opposition and he signed played like Sturridge and got the best out of players like Henderson, Suarez etc

Suarez is undoubtedly a factor, but so is the man management of players like him, he could easily have been lumbered with a player who sulked his way to the end of the season, instead the player has performed majestically, signed a new contract and seemingly helped them to the title.

IMO what Rodgers has done is great management because he's displayed the traits good managers should and been adaptable.

[Letters]

There's definitely people that do.
Who?

[Özim]

So the other clubs catching up with our fitness regime, creating global scouting networks to rival Wenger's knowledge of the game, bringing in better, foreign coaches and being fuelled by billionaires while we've been going through a huge stadium move and had poor commercial deals...you don't think any of those are factors as big as Wenger apparently getting worse.

We'll have to agree to disagree about that. Football has changed massively while he's been with us and IMO part of the problem with Wenger is that he hasn't changed.

That's a factor, but IMO we have stagnated, instead of staying ahead of the competition we got complacent and just assumed we'd stay ahead, in a funny way this was the same when we won the title, instead of strengthening he's be happy enough with the squad, invariably we'd fail defend the title because of it.

The football world is an ever changing environment and you need to keep moving to stay ahead of the competition or you'll get left behind.

[Özim]

Who?

I don't want to name names because I don't want to involve people who aren't involved in this conversation, it'll only get their backs up and to be honest it's not my intention.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

the problem is that football isn't a business, when clubs are prepared to run at huge losses at the thrall of their plutocratic owners this is no kind of business model at all.
Liverpool are no exception because they have been running at huge losses as well, and if people think FPP will change anything they are kidding themselves.
However i think Arsenal and their manager will have you believe that they cannot compete against the rising tide and that you should be happy for their moral stance and paying for the pleasure of watching a mediocre side...the board keep Wenger because their objective is 4th spot and they want Wenger because to date he hasn't finished lower than 4th without spending much money on transfer fees (he has gone about it a different way by giving us a massive and long term unsustainable wage bill instead) and they are too risk adverse to be prepared to make short term losses for long term gains.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't want to name names because I don't want to involve people who aren't involved in this conversation, it'll only get their backs up and to be honest it's not my intention.

To be fair i don't think there is anyone on this board who views Wenger as deity like anymore, i think your so stultified in your hatred for the man i think you perceive anyone willing to say anything positive about him as a knee bender.

[Letters]

I don't want to name names.
:lol:

OK, you can PM me your imaginary list if you like.

[Fist of Lehmann]

A few weeks back Wenger promised a full and frank investigation into why our injury record is so bad.

The question that occurred to me was:

If the investigation concludes that it is Arsene's training methods, his selection policy, his style of play, his loyalty to injury prone players, basically any of the keystones of his philosophy, is causing the problem, does he have it in him to change?

Beyond tweaking, radically, I have my doubts.

The other question that occurs is: why wasn't this full and frank investigation carried out 4 years ago?

[Letters]

the problem is that football isn't a business, when clubs are prepared to run at huge losses at the thrall of their plutocratic owners this is no kind of business model at all.
Liverpool are no exception because they have been running at huge losses as well, and if people think FPP will change anything they are kidding themselves.
But how are they going to sustain that long term?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

A few weeks back Wenger promised a full and frank investigation into why our injury record is so bad.

The question that occurred to me was:

If the investigation concludes that it is Arsene's training methods, his selection policy, his style of play, his loyalty to injury prone players, basically any of the keystones of his philosophy, is causing the problem, does he have it in him to change?

Beyond tweaking, radically, I have my doubts.

The other question that occurs is: why wasn't this full and frank investigation carried out 4 years ago?

I don't want to be fisted by Lehmann, not Jens, Tom or Darren

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But how are they going to sustain that long term?

I didn't say they were....although i believe John Henry will probably have enough clout to allow them to cover their losses, but even if they win the league they need to hold an investigation as to how much value for money they are getting in the signings they have made....so much wastage.

[Bumble]

Arsenal are the 11th best paid sports team in the World. 9 places above Liverpool. Yet 10 points behind. Liverpool refused to sell their best player in the summer and now they are on the verge of winning the league. I really hope the board look at that and think perhaps had we kept Fabregas, Nasri, RvP etc for an extra season then know knows.

We finish where we should finish, Arsenal might not spend big in terms of net transfer fees but doesnt mean we dont spend big on wages. I wouldnt say Wenger has overachieved, consistency is difficult but with the CL as it is, it is easier to keep the others at bay when all football is about is playing CL football.

Next season I think will be more difficult, Liverpool would have the CL money to spend and also having won the league players will look to gravitate there. The Chavs and Citeh will buy a quality striker (chavs) and quality defender (citeh). United will bring in a good manager with a large warchest. So if we dont invest properly then we are only a long term injury to Ramsey away from struggling.

[Kano]

A few weeks back Wenger promised a full and frank investigation into why our injury record is so bad.

The question that occurred to me was:

If the investigation concludes that it is Arsene's training methods, his selection policy, his style of play, his loyalty to injury prone players, basically any of the keystones of his philosophy, is causing the problem, does he have it in him to change?

Beyond tweaking, radically, I have my doubts.

The other question that occurs is: why wasn't this full and frank investigation carried out 4 years ago?
It was 2/3 years ago and we're here yet again. Nothing has been learnt it seems or as you say, he cannot change enough to make a discernible difference.

[Power n Glory]

In the 2008 season where we collapsed it was the same problem. RVP, Rosicky and Eduardo picked up injuries, Hleb, Fabs and Adebayor started to lose form because of the amount of games they were playing and we didn't do what was necessary in January to ease the burden off an already stretched squad challenging for the title. It's deja vu.

[Globalgunner]

Please don't crticise Mr Wenger or question his methods. Or point out his deficiencies. You may upset some people. If not for Maccy, this place would long have been rechristened "the imaginarium of Dr Arsene". Devotees only allowed.

Hail Wenger beloved of the creator...sent down to lead us to the promised land......sometime in the year 2025 or thereabouts.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

No doubt whatsoever that our season has been adversely affected by injuries, but to be totally honest, I started to fear our season would turn out as it has now after we went to Old Trafford first half of the season, full strength and still lacked bottle.

That game kinda showed that we were still incapable of winning high pressure games, especially against the supposed big teams. Robbed us of our little momentum and belief, and we just never looked comfortable in the other big fixtures from that point on.

[Letters]

Please don't crticise Mr Wenger or question his methods. Or point out his deficiencies. You may upset some people. If not for Maccy, this place would long have been rechristened "the imaginarium of Dr Arsene". Devotees only allowed.

Hail Wenger beloved of the creator...sent down to lead us to the promised land......sometime in the year 2025 or thereabouts.
What the piss are you talking about?

[Özim]

To be fair i don't think there is anyone on this board who views Wenger as deity like anymore, i think your so stultified in your hatred for the man i think you perceive anyone willing to say anything positive about him as a knee bender.

That's blatantly not true, there's a number of people who won't hear a bad word said about him without reacting with a reason as to why he' great.

[Özim]

I didn't say they were....although i believe John Henry will probably have enough clout to allow them to cover their losses, but even if they win the league they need to hold an investigation as to how much value for money they are getting in the signings they have made....so much wastage.

John Henry made some American club successful again, so he has a record of bringing back success, I don't think Liverpool have anything to worry about.

[Globalgunner]

No doubt whatsoever that our season has been adversely affected by injuries, but to be totally honest, I started to fear our season would turn out as it has now after we went to Old Trafford first half of the season, full strength and still lacked bottle.

That game kinda showed that we were still incapable of winning high pressure games, especially against the supposed big teams. Robbed us of our little momentum and belief, and we just never looked comfortable in the other big fixtures from that point on.

Agreed but we always knew beating United has been Wengers biggest psychological hurdle, now he has added all other teams except seemingly the spuds, where good old fashioned hatred and the facts that the spuds refuse to use tactics against us always work in our favour ( if we remain the way we are and Totts get a manager who isnt a former player or a bellend like AVB or Redknapp, they will start getting the upper hand, as it is they always get carried away by the occasion)

For me the Everton game at home was the start of our downward spiral. We collapsed again in that game when we needed to inflict damage on them, but Wenger was in the middle of his "I want to defend all the time" phase. It was a bad result at the time, many of us said so.

[Letters]

That's blatantly not true, there's a number of people who won't hear a bad word said about him without reacting with a reason as to why he' great.
So you keep saying. Still waiting for that PM :tiphat:

[Özim]

Arsenal are the 11th best paid sports team in the World. 9 places above Liverpool. Yet 10 points behind. Liverpool refused to sell their best player in the summer and now they are on the verge of winning the league. I really hope the board look at that and think perhaps had we kept Fabregas, Nasri, RvP etc for an extra season then know knows.

We finish where we should finish, Arsenal might not spend big in terms of net transfer fees but doesnt mean we dont spend big on wages. I wouldnt say Wenger has overachieved, consistency is difficult but with the CL as it is, it is easier to keep the others at bay when all football is about is playing CL football.

Next season I think will be more difficult, Liverpool would have the CL money to spend and also having won the league players will look to gravitate there. The Chavs and Citeh will buy a quality striker (chavs) and quality defender (citeh). United will bring in a good manager with a large warchest. So if we dont invest properly then we are only a long term injury to Ramsey away from struggling.

Great post, totally agree.

[Globalgunner]

What the piss are you talking about?
I`m pointing out the fact that your a poor administrator. You cant be an administrator if your always on one side of the argument

[Letters]

I`m pointing out the fact that your a poor administrator.
At least my grammar is good.

And yes I can :good:. I haven't deleted any posts I disagree with. I think some people have ridiculous opinions but I'm allowed to hold my own. If I went around deleting posts I disagreed with you'd have a point, but I don't.

:good:

[Letters]

So you keep saying. Still waiting for that PM :tiphat:

:lol: OK, to be fair Zim did PM me a list. Only agree with one of them really.
In general I don't think anyone on here is as rabidly pro-Wenger as the tide of people rabidly anti.

[Globalgunner]

At least my grammar is good.

And yes I can :good:. I haven't deleted any posts I disagree with. I think some people have ridiculous opinions but I'm allowed to hold my own. If I went around deleting posts I disagreed with you'd have a point, but I don't.

:good:
Bully for you.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

At least my grammar is good.

And yes I can :good:. I haven't deleted any posts I disagree with. I think some people have ridiculous opinions but I'm allowed to hold my own. If I went around deleting posts I disagreed with you'd have a point, but I don't.

:good:

You just delete my light hearted musings regarding AW and the black hearted rumours that were made when he joined us and totally without substance, of his tendency towards pederasty.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol: OK, to be fair Zim did PM me a list. Only agree with one of them really.
In general I don't think anyone on here is as rabidly pro-Wenger as the tide of people rabidly anti.

Leak it damn you!

[WMUG]

:lol: OK, to be fair Zim did PM me a list. Only agree with one of them really.


Was it Ollie? It was Ollie, wasn't it?

[Letters]

Leak it damn you!
I would if I was a poor administrator.

[Niall_Quinn]

Weren't you of the opinion winning the cup meant F all anyway?

Two views aren't connected. I said the cup wouldn't be any sort of indicator and had been devalued as a prize. Doesn't mean I'll root out a way to slag Wenger if we win it.

[Niall_Quinn]

A cup he's lacked respect for and from what we've seen in the last 10 years not really cared about, likewise a lot of the fans.

I think the FA Cup is great incidentally, but I find it ironic that some people are suddenly rating it as a great achievement when all they've done is slag it off for years and belittled the achievement when the likes of Portsmouth etc won it.

That's where these arguments get tedious, when people make shit up and then wield it as the centrepiece. I don't rate the FA Cup, haven't done for years. But I do find it amusing how some fans are at their most critical when we win. I'm just wondering how far it will go if we win a cup.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why has this thread gone on attack other posters for their views? This has been done to death and it’s the same culprits that keep dragging it up. (LDG, Letters and NQ).

Whenever someone talks about the frustrating issues we see each season, you guys take issue with the poster or the harsh words for Wenger instead of the real crux of the issue. Threads get bogged down in this back and forth abuse, i.e calling fans ‘filth’, ‘twats’ sarcy comments as usual and it’s ironic that these same posters are calling for the abuse of Wenger to stop. Nobody on this thread has gone as far as that when talking about Wenger.

Back to IBK’s original post, the question is, has Wenger been left behind tactically or is it more of a case of injuries and training. Personally, I feel it’s both and we’ve seen the same issues over the past 9 years so I doubt things will change. He won’t buy to bolster the numbers and even when we’ve seen the effects fatigue can have on the squad, he won’t rotate and sub players when exhausted. It’s a catch 22 and we’re stuck in limbo with him.

I think it might be due to every thread on the forum ending up as a slag Wenger thread.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think there are legitimate question marks over his future even with the fa cup, but AW and the "c" word are far too synonymous for my liking.
I'm of the elk, where i want the man to prove me wrong because i still like and respect him, but as time has gone on i have lost "belief" that he can.

Absolutely. I don't think anyone has a problem listening to a reasoned argument, such as the type posed by the OP. But then it gets ridiculous, you hear the old shit about Wenger being tactically incompetent because he lost three away matches big - including one with corrupt officials, one where we were down to 10 and the other where admittedly we were smashed but beat the very same team in the home fixture (which is odd if the manager is so clueless). It's the frustration of listening to arguments that have no logic trotted out as if they are reasonable. Same with the fitness thing. We kill our players apparently - and yet Giroud plays all season, the one player we said we couldn't afford to lose, does he not train with the first team too? Or the pick a world class striker in Tesco, transfer debate. Or the Wilshere is a cunt get him out campaign. They gave up calling him foul names when they were picked up on it. So that was a result I suppose, not that you should have to tell your own fans not to call their manager what a spuds would happily call him.

But yes, in the world of reason there are issues with the tactics, issues with the injuries, , issues with the transfers, other issues in a subtle and complex environment that can't all be reduced to Wenger is shit. I'm still of the opinion there's no other manager who could have done what he's done over the last 8 years. Some will immediately say, true, he's a shit loser. They instantly ignore the huge potential that is bubbling under the surface at this club now. And even if another manager comes in and is a raving success, he'd better be gracious enough to kiss Wenger's feet for laying it on such a finely decorated and plentiful plate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I would if I was a poor administrator.

No that would just make you a poor confidant

[Niall_Quinn]

That's blatantly not true, there's a number of people who won't hear a bad word said about him without reacting with a reason as to why he' great.

Can't think of a single person over the last year who has claimed Wenger is infallible or correct in all his decisions. Confident nobody else can think of a name either. If you mean "won't hear a bad word" as won't listen to bullshit claiming he's incompetent or robbing the club and so on, that's probably true. But I don't think that's what you mean.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Absolutely. I don't think anyone has a problem listening to a reasoned argument, such as the type posed by the OP. But then it gets ridiculous, you hear the old shit about Wenger being tactically incompetent because he lost three away matches big - including one with corrupt officials, one where we were down to 10 and the other where admittedly we were smashed but beat the very same team in the home fixture (which is odd if the manager is so clueless). It's the frustration of listening to arguments that have no logic trotted out as if they are reasonable. Same with the fitness thing. We kill our players apparently - and yet Giroud plays all season, the one player we said we couldn't afford to lose, does he not train with the first team too? Or the pick a world class striker in Tesco, transfer debate. Or the Wilshere is a cunt get him out campaign. They gave up calling him foul names when they were picked up on it. So that was a result I suppose, not that you should have to tell your own fans not to call their manager what a spuds would happily call him.

But yes, in the world of reason there are issues with the tactics, issues with the injuries, , issues with the transfers, other issues in a subtle and complex environment that can't all be reduced to Wenger is shit. I'm still of the opinion there's no other manager who could have done what he's done over the last 8 years. Some will immediately say, true, he's a shit loser. They instantly ignore the huge potential that is bubbling under the surface at this club now. And even if another manager comes in and is a raving success, he'd better be gracious enough to kiss Wenger's feet for laying it on such a finely decorated and plentiful plate.

If we lost those matches 1-0 or 2-1 than i'd find the criticisms overwrought, but 6-3, 5-1, 6-0 and 3-0....to blame the officials of being corrupt without any evidence seems totally pointless as well. We lost those matches because we looked totally unprepared, totally lacking in discipline and game plan. When you have spaces between these fixtures and you have demonstrated that you have learnt nothing from any of these defeats it's rather troubling.....and whilst senseless abuse is unwarranted...i think the fans have the right to take the manager to task over it...because it appears no-one at the club save Steve Bould is.
And i think the reason Giroud hasn't broken down from an injury is more due to luck rather than judgement (although whether that's good or bad luck depends on how you view him).

[Power n Glory]

I think it might be due to every thread on the forum ending up as a slag Wenger thread.

Where has that happened on here?

[Niall_Quinn]

For me the Everton game at home was the start of our downward spiral. We collapsed again in that game when we needed to inflict damage on them, but Wenger was in the middle of his "I want to defend all the time" phase. It was a bad result at the time, many of us said so.

Same for me. The first Everton match answered the questions about confidence and bottle and ambition. People went OTT on Everton's performance, like they did in the 3-0 return. But both times we sat back and let them play, taking an entirely negative approach to the game against a team we used to slap around like a cheap whore. We were a lot poorer than Everton were good and we chose that option. Huge negativity and a key indicator we wouldn't have the guts to just go for it when the crunch period of the season came. That would be the second biggest criticism of Wenger this year, for me. Conservatism when we needed to take a few risks. Biggest criticism is the failure to land reinforcements in January.

[Power n Glory]

If we lost those matches 1-0 or 2-1 than i'd find the criticisms overwrought, but 6-3, 5-1, 6-0 and 3-0....to blame the officials of being corrupt without any evidence seems totally pointless as well. We lost those matches because we looked totally unprepared, totally lacking in discipline and game plan. When you have spaces between these fixtures and you have demonstrated that you have learnt nothing from any of these defeats it's rather troubling.....and whilst senseless abuse is unwarranted...i think the fans have the right to take the manager to task over it...because it appears no-one at the club save Steve Bould is.
And i think the reason Giroud hasn't broken down from an injury is more due to luck rather than judgement (although whether that's good or bad luck depends on how you view him).

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

Where has that happened on here?

Think the OP just got unlucky. LDG has probably been getting the same earache I've got from hearing the constant whining. Guess another Wenger thread caused a pressure valve to open. Could have happened anywhere.

[Kano]

I didn't say they were....although i believe John Henry will probably have enough clout to allow them to cover their losses, but even if they win the league they need to hold an investigation as to how much value for money they are getting in the signings they have made....so much wastage.
to be honest i'm not sure there has been an efficient winner of the league since we did many moons ago. so what liverpool have spent may not be a million miles away from what we've wasted over the years on useless squad players and their wages.

[Niall_Quinn]

If we lost those matches 1-0 or 2-1 than i'd find the criticisms overwrought, but 6-3, 5-1, 6-0 and 3-0....to blame the officials of being corrupt without any evidence seems totally pointless as well. We lost those matches because we looked totally unprepared, totally lacking in discipline and game plan. When you have spaces between these fixtures and you have demonstrated that you have learnt nothing from any of these defeats it's rather troubling.....and whilst senseless abuse is unwarranted...i think the fans have the right to take the manager to task over it...because it appears no-one at the club save Steve Bould is.
And i think the reason Giroud hasn't broken down from an injury is more due to luck rather than judgement (although whether that's good or bad luck depends on how you view him).

We were crap in all 3 matches, no argument, but two of the scorelines were inflated by at least partially artificial circumstances. LOL - the ref was corrupt as hell in the gypo match. Come on. My point some dwell exclusively on that and then concoct huge plot lines that don't tie up with the corresponding evidence from the reverse fixtures. If we are going to say Wenger is entirely incompetent then how are we 4th at all? Shouldn't we be bottom and on our way out? Many of the arguments against him are extreme and not supported by the evidence. The arguments expressed by rational posters I have no problem with at all. No escaping that Liverpool hammering. Wenger has to be criticised for that, of course. As do the players. I'd like to see a strong tactician come in to assist (actually take over) from Wenger in that role. Wenger doing less is not something I don't have any problems with. But the delight I think some would have if he was kicked out the door, that irks me. Not that it will happen, so I don't know why they keep doing everything in their power to belittle the man.

[Niall_Quinn]

I`m pointing out the fact that your a poor administrator. You cant be an administrator if your always on one side of the argument

Actually that's just about as wrong as it's possible to be about the role of a forum admin. Most forums are set up by people who have a particular passion. They open the doors to the opinions of others. Provided they don't shut people up for expressing an opposite opinion then they are at liberty and likely to express their passion. If they are good administrators they can have a right old argument where both sides are heard. Now I don't think anyone can say the two sides of the argument aren't presented on this forum. If anything, one side of the argument drenched the place.

[Power n Glory]

We were crap in all 3 matches, no argument, but two of the scorelines were inflated by at least partially artificial circumstances. LOL - the ref was corrupt as hell in the gypo match. Come on. My point some dwell exclusively on that and then concoct huge plot lines that don't tie up with the corresponding evidence from the reverse fixtures. If we are going to say Wenger is entirely incompetent then how are we 4th at all? Shouldn't we be bottom and on our way out? Many of the arguments against him are extreme and not supported by the evidence. The arguments expressed by rational posters I have no problem with at all. No escaping that Liverpool hammering. Wenger has to be criticised for that, of course. As do the players. I'd like to see a strong tactician come in to assist (actually take over) from Wenger in that role. Wenger doing less is not something I don't have any problems with. But the delight I think some would have if he was kicked out the door, that irks me. Not that it will happen, so I don't know why they keep doing everything in their power to belittle the man.

What irked you in this thread? You just jumped in with a chip on your shoulder after a page and a half in. There were no insults thrown Wenger’s way.

[Niall_Quinn]

What irked you in this thread? You just jumped in with a chip on your shoulder after a page and a half in. There were no insults thrown Wenger’s way.

:wacko:

I'm supporting a view expressed by another poster that I agree with. Internet forum. Discussion. Etc. The bleeding thread is titled "Are the Doubters Wrong about Wenger"

[Power n Glory]

:wacko:

I'm supporting a view expressed by another poster that I agree with. Internet forum. Discussion. Etc. The bleeding thread is titled "Are the Doubters Wrong about Wenger"

You didn't read it properly.

This is what IBK said in regard to the stats.


But I freely admit that the above stats make me question whether my points of criticism of Wenger are accurate, and whether the question marks over him should be in relation to his fitness regime and his failure to back his first team up properly rather than his ability to read and understand the game.

Your post here is well off the mark. Your not in agreement. You just read the headline.


Absolutely. I don't think anyone has a problem listening to a reasoned argument, such as the type posed by the OP. But then it gets ridiculous, you hear the old shit about Wenger being tactically incompetent because he lost three away matches big - including one with corrupt officials, one where we were down to 10 and the other where admittedly we were smashed but beat the very same team in the home fixture (which is odd if the manager is so clueless). It's the frustration of listening to arguments that have no logic trotted out as if they are reasonable. Same with the fitness thing. We kill our players apparently - and yet Giroud plays all season, the one player we said we couldn't afford to lose, does he not train with the first team too? Or the pick a world class striker in Tesco, transfer debate. Or the Wilshere is a cunt get him out campaign. They gave up calling him foul names when they were picked up on it. So that was a result I suppose, not that you should have to tell your own fans not to call their manager what a spuds would happily call him.

But yes, in the world of reason there are issues with the tactics, issues with the injuries, , issues with the transfers, other issues in a subtle and complex environment that can't all be reduced to Wenger is shit. I'm still of the opinion there's no other manager who could have done what he's done over the last 8 years. Some will immediately say, true, he's a shit loser. They instantly ignore the huge potential that is bubbling under the surface at this club now. And even if another manager comes in and is a raving success, he'd better be gracious enough to kiss Wenger's feet for laying it on such a finely decorated and plentiful plate.

[Niall_Quinn]

I wasn't responding to IBK - but otherwise a sturdy straw man you have there.

[LDG]

Why has this thread gone on attack other posters for their views? This has been done to death and it’s the same culprits that keep dragging it up. (LDG, Letters and NQ).

Whenever someone talks about the frustrating issues we see each season, you guys take issue with the poster or the harsh words for Wenger instead of the real crux of the issue. Threads get bogged down in this back and forth abuse, i.e calling fans ‘filth’, ‘twats’ sarcy comments as usual and it’s ironic that these same posters are calling for the abuse of Wenger to stop. Nobody on this thread has gone as far as that when talking about Wenger.

Back to IBK’s original post, the question is, has Wenger been left behind tactically or is it more of a case of injuries and training. Personally, I feel it’s both and we’ve seen the same issues over the past 9 years so I doubt things will change. He won’t buy to bolster the numbers and even when we’ve seen the effects fatigue can have on the squad, he won’t rotate and sub players when exhausted. It’s a catch 22 and we’re stuck in limbo with him.

Have a word pal.

Where have I slagged off any poster? Where in my post did I do that?

You're the one pointing fingers, so perhaps you need to have a look at yourself.

[Power n Glory]

Have a word pal.

Where have I slagged off any poster? Where in my post did I do that?

You're the one pointing fingers, so perhaps you need to have a look at yourself.


Well said.

Whilst most of us agree that his time is at an end, it still disgusts me the vitriol, shit and internet spew being showered on him.

How can you call yourself a fan of a club, when your first priority is to slag off anything and everything about us?

Yes Wenger needs to go. Yes, he is guilty of stagnating. But he has also, lets not forget, kept us from slipping into a different part of the table, using the very strengths we praised him for in his early tenure.

Time for a fresh face to build on the solid foundations. But I can't tell you how nausiating it is to be associated with the filth who sit behind their keyboards throwing turds, with such little knowledge of football to back it up. Opinion is one thing. Being able to articulate it is another. And if you have nothing positive to say, just fuck off will ya.


Sorry, bud! But why did the conversation have to go down that route for this thread?

[Power n Glory]

I wasn't responding to IBK - but otherwise a sturdy straw man you have there.

Where are the unreasonable posts in this thread? You’ve missed the point of the thread. IBK is shifting the focus and asking whether it’s the training and lack of first team back up that’s the problem and maybe some of us misjudging his tactical failings.


Absolutely. I don't think anyone has a problem listening to a reasoned argument, such as the type posed by the OP. But then it gets ridiculous, you hear the old shit about Wenger being tactically incompetent because he lost three away matches big - including one with corrupt officials, one where we were down to 10 and the other where admittedly we were smashed but beat the very same team in the home fixture (which is odd if the manager is so clueless). It's the frustration of listening to arguments that have no logic trotted out as if they are reasonable. Same with the fitness thing. We kill our players apparently - and yet Giroud plays all season, the one player we said we couldn't afford to lose, does he not train with the first team too? Or the pick a world class striker in Tesco, transfer debate. Or the Wilshere is a cunt get him out campaign. They gave up calling him foul names when they were picked up on it. So that was a result I suppose, not that you should have to tell your own fans not to call their manager what a spuds would happily call him.

This post shows how off the mark you are, especially that last part about the training and fitness because that’s what the thread is about. :doh:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey, i got called a wenger apologist when i have questioned (and still do) how much money this club actually has to spend, when you factor in how obscene transfer wages and player wages are in the modern game?.
What does that even have to do with AW's competence as manager would be my response?

[LDG]

Sorry, bud! But why did the conversation have to go down that route for this thread?

I dunno, but I was responding to a post someone else made, so why don't you ask them?

[Letters]

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey
Innit. It completely baffles me.

Most people are more anti-Wenger than pro these days but if you're not calling Wenger every name under the sun you're defending him to the hilt no matter what happens.

I can understand it a bit more in the heat of the moment during or immediately after a game but in the cold light of day it's pretty weird.

[IBK]

Why has this thread gone on attack other posters for their views? This has been done to death and it’s the same culprits that keep dragging it up. (LDG, Letters and NQ).


Whenever someone talks about the frustrating issues we see each season, you guys take issue with the poster or the harsh words for Wenger instead of the real crux of the issue. Threads get bogged down in this back and forth abuse, i.e calling fans ‘filth’, ‘twats’ sarcy comments as usual and it’s ironic that these same posters are calling for the abuse of Wenger to stop. Nobody on this thread has gone as far as that when talking about Wenger.


Back to IBK’s original post, the question is, has Wenger been left behind tactically or is it more of a case of injuries and training. Personally, I feel it’s both and we’ve seen the same issues over the past 9 years so I doubt things will change. He won’t buy to bolster the numbers and even when we’ve seen the effects fatigue can have on the squad, he won’t rotate and sub players when exhausted. It’s a catch 22 and we’re stuck in limbo with him.


:gp: Other than perhaps OTT emotional reactions on match/post match threads, I have simply not seen any prevelance on here of the anti Wenger 'bile' that some posters take exception to. I also feel that some posters' reactions to Zimm are well OTT. He is guilty of nothing more than pessimism as to Wenger's methods, and has never made an 'anti Wenger' statement without backing it up with an explanation for his views. I said on another thread that there seems to be a 'default' position amongst some Gooners of not seeing the wood for the trees when it comes to Wenger. This season it has been most marked in the debate about whether there has been any real improvement in this Arsenal side - and frankly - in relation to our results and performances - the sceptics have been proved right.


Personally, I have always tried to look at all angles of our team's performance - and while I have never to my knowledge indulged in infantile over-exaggeration, lately I have taken the view that far from being unjustly criticised, Wenger has had an easy ride from Gooners. He managed our transition to the Emirates, and in the first half of his reign he brought us success. But I think that for him personally, he has taken as much from Arsenal as he has given the club - perhaps even gaining more personal advantage than the advantages that he has given Arsenal and its fans.

The bottom line is that no matter how we have become used to dressing it up, the hallmark of a top manager is not balancing the books; making profits from player sales, or ensuring a sound financial footing. That is the job of a successful managing director, and should not really come into the reckoning for a football coach. One of Wenger's biggest deceptions has been to claim credit for a side of the club that he simply should not be involved in.

Anyways - back to the main issue of the thread. The reason I posted was that I have become convinced that Wenger's tactical approach, and the way that he has set up his teams has become outdated - and his footballing weaknesses are becoming increasingly easy for a new breed of bold young tactically astute managers to exploit. But having seen the extraordinary injury stats that I have posted, not to mention the huge and obvious difference that our key returning players have made I wonder whether Wenger is quite as far behind his rivals in this respect as it might have seemed. Put another way - with our 3 best players - Ramsey; Walcott and Ozil fit for even 90% of the season, would Wenger's methods have won us the league? It is fair to point out that this is what Chelsea; Liverpool, and even Everton have enjoyed - while Citeh, even though they have had key players injured for parts of the season, are (or should be) basically immune from the effect of injuries. Citeh away aside (and even then, we scored 3 goals against them), none of our shocking results this season have been with even 2 of our 3 best players on the pitch?

@ PNG - of course there are elements of footballing approach and injuries/training to blame for our predicament. But I just wonder whether the real criticism of Wenger should be the training/fitness methods that consistently rob him of the players essential to make his style of play work rather than his 'tactical' naivity. At the end of the day the distinction may be irrelevant, because our results over the season speak for themselves. But for debating purposes it is interesting to ask whether the manager's way of playing football is flawed in itself, or flawed because it only works with a level of player that is beyond his ability to keep fit for a season?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Innit. It completely baffles me.

Most people are more anti-Wenger than pro these days but if you're not calling Wenger every name under the sun you're defending him to the hilt no matter what happens.

I can understand it a bit more in the heat of the moment during or immediately after a game but in the cold light of day it's pretty weird.

I agree with everything you say other than Innit, that kind of vernacular is not becoming of a moderator

[Niall_Quinn]

Where are the unreasonable posts in this thread? You’ve missed the point of the thread. IBK is shifting the focus and asking whether it’s the training and lack of first team back up that’s the problem and maybe some of us misjudging his tactical failings.



This post shows how off the mark you are, especially that last part about the training and fitness because that’s what the thread is about. :doh:

I

Wasn't

Responding

Directly

to

IBK

I mentioned him as a reasonable poster in comparison to assholes that spend their whole time moaning about Wenger. I then gave examples of what these assholes tend to post. That qualifies the thread title - I'm saying some of the doubters are wrong beyond question because they haven't even managed to frame a rational argument.

I think you caught a reflection. Haven't a clue what you mean by "mark" - go on then, what's the correct opinion I should have?

[Globalgunner]

The failure to buy a proper striker at the start and at the crunch mid season period is a fatal flaw in Wengers approach. Plus his reluctance/unwillingness to get the best out of Podolski. Its all been beatern to death though, The only issue is will anything change if he is still here next season?

[Kano]

Anyways - back to the main issue of the thread. The reason I posted was that I have become convinced that Wenger's tactical approach, and the way that he has set up his teams has become outdated - and his footballing weaknesses are becoming increasingly easy for a new breed of bold young tactically astute managers to exploit. But having seen the extraordinary injury stats that I have posted, not to mention the huge and obvious difference that our key returning players have made I wonder whether Wenger is quite as far behind his rivals in this respect as it might have seemed. Put another way - with our 3 best players - Ramsey; Walcott and Ozil fit for even 90% of the season, would Wenger's methods have won us the league? It is fair to point out that this is what Chelsea; Liverpool, and even Everton have enjoyed - while Citeh, even though they have had key players injured for parts of the season, are (or should be) basically immune from the effect of injuries. Citeh away aside (and even then, we scored 3 goals against them), none of our shocking results this season have been with even 2 of our 3 best players on the pitch?
I posted this earlier in response to your thread opener but it got lost amongst other stuff.

I think the results away to the top four this seasons says it all when it comes to the discrepancy between his ability now and the teams ahead of us. Those hammerings were purely down to lack of preparation in terms of our set-up and approach. Of course, we had personnel missing for some of those matches but that still does not allow for how open we left ourselves. In fact, looking back at our record against the top four across the past few years shows us that in the games against the better prepared teams, we come up short.

You can roll out a group of good players like ours and let them play their game against outside the top six and we'll come up trumps on most occasions. Better players can generally figure out a way to beat those not on their level. Put them up against a team with players on an equal footing and you need to find that extra edge to give you an advantage.

He won't change his approach to games nor will he change our training methods at his age. He is still a good manager, just not good enough for what we need anymore.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

On a seperate topic, was it necessary to take out people's hearts and then display it to the gaping public when you defeated your oponents on Mortal Kombat?

[Letters]

I also feel that some posters' reactions to Zimm are well OTT. He is guilty of nothing more than pessimism as to Wenger's methods, and has never made an 'anti Wenger' statement without backing it up with an explanation for his views.
Oh come on!

We won 3-0 away at Hull, we should be winning up there but we did and it was a much improved performance than some of late, makes me wonder what could have been had Ramsey stayed fit (don't think we'd have won the league but we'd have been closer)

Anyway, someone posts the post-match interview with Wenger in which he was asked about the supposed foul by Arteta. He gave a completely reasonable response about how he didn't think it was a foul (which the MoTD pundits concurred with) and said it was 70 yards from goal anyway. Zimm's response:


The guy makes me laugh, re the supposed foul by Arteta he says it's 70 yards from the goal and had no effect and you could pick a few of these for each team, yet whenever this happens to his team he's unhappy about it even if it's 70 odd yards away, you don't hear him say it had no impact then

What's that? :o Wenger is biased towards his own team? OUTRAGEOUS! (There is a school of thought which says that people who call themselves Arsenal fans should be that way...) And note how Zim completely ignores the part where Wenger said he didn't think it was a foul anyway.

Zim never misses an opportunity to have a dig at Wenger. And if there isn't a real opportunity he makes one up. It goes way beyond pessimism, it's real bitter hatred. It's completely bizarre.

[Power n Glory]

:gp: Other than perhaps OTT emotional reactions on match/post match threads, I have simply not seen any prevelance on here of the anti Wenger 'bile' that some posters take exception to. I also feel that some posters' reactions to Zimm are well OTT. He is guilty of nothing more than pessimism as to Wenger's methods, and has never made an 'anti Wenger' statement without backing it up with an explanation for his views. I said on another thread that there seems to be a 'default' position amongst some Gooners of not seeing the wood for the trees when it comes to Wenger. This season it has been most marked in the debate about whether there has been any real improvement in this Arsenal side - and frankly - in relation to our results and performances - the sceptics have been proved right.


Personally, I have always tried to look at all angles of our team's performance - and while I have never to my knowledge indulged in infantile over-exaggeration, lately I have taken the view that far from being unjustly criticised, Wenger has had an easy ride from Gooners. He managed our transition to the Emirates, and in the first half of his reign he brought us success. But I think that for him personally, he has taken as much from Arsenal as he has given the club - perhaps even gaining more personal advantage than the advantages that he has given Arsenal and its fans.

The bottom line is that no matter how we have become used to dressing it up, the hallmark of a top manager is not balancing the books; making profits from player sales, or ensuring a sound financial footing. That is the job of a successful managing director, and should not really come into the reckoning for a football coach. One of Wenger's biggest deceptions has been to claim credit for a side of the club that he simply should not be involved in.

Anyways - back to the main issue of the thread. The reason I posted was that I have become convinced that Wenger's tactical approach, and the way that he has set up his teams has become outdated - and his footballing weaknesses are becoming increasingly easy for a new breed of bold young tactically astute managers to exploit. But having seen the extraordinary injury stats that I have posted, not to mention the huge and obvious difference that our key returning players have made I wonder whether Wenger is quite as far behind his rivals in this respect as it might have seemed. Put another way - with our 3 best players - Ramsey; Walcott and Ozil fit for even 90% of the season, would Wenger's methods have won us the league? It is fair to point out that this is what Chelsea; Liverpool, and even Everton have enjoyed - while Citeh, even though they have had key players injured for parts of the season, are (or should be) basically immune from the effect of injuries. Citeh away aside (and even then, we scored 3 goals against them), none of our shocking results this season have been with even 2 of our 3 best players on the pitch?

@ PNG - of course there are elements of footballing approach and injuries/training to blame for our predicament. But I just wonder whether the real criticism of Wenger should be the training/fitness methods that consistently rob him of the players essential to make his style of play work rather than his 'tactical' naivity. At the end of the day the distinction may be irrelevant, because our results over the season speak for themselves. But for debating purposes it is interesting to ask whether the manager's way of playing football is flawed in itself, or flawed because it only works with a level of player that is beyond his ability to keep fit for a season?

It’s worth checking out Le Grove. Over the course of the season, they’ve talked about our injury record, spoken to experts at the club, outside the club and it’s really got me thinking. It’s probably why I’m even more pessimistic. I just can’t see where we’ll improve if we don’t change the way we train and prepare for games.

I think Wenger is tactically outdated. Having read about the intense uninterrupted 5 aside sessions, his theory on players learning on the field and not giving instructions….it just doesn’t fill me with confidence. When the players look flat and lack that spark, I don’t believe that’s down to a lack of effort. I think they’re trying to go back to the basics even though confidence is low. If we had team full of great world class players, we’d probably fair better but we don’t and as Blink says, we need to box smarter to compensate.

When you take that into consideration along with our poor injury record, I think it’s too much of a mountain to climb. It’s made me lose hope completely. I’ve heard the arguments about Liverpool and having Suarez. It’s been a perfect storm for them, you’re right and I knew City and Chelsea wouldn’t walk away with the season. We really should have taken advantage of that this year. Suarez has been a beast for Liverpool. ‘Only if we had Suarez’, people say. Would we be able to maintain such a player with our fitness record? That should be the question. We’ve had RVP, Ade, Eduardo, Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott, Nasri….bags of talent in our squad. Goals galore but we’ve never been able to keep the energy levels up for the season or keep everyone fit. In the 2008, the team were left huffing and puffing in the same way this team seem gassed right now. It’s a combination of problems and I can’t see anything changing anytime soon. In his most recent interview he seemed reluctant to blame the staff or his methods but blamed the supplements players were using. Hair supplements. It’s the sort of stubborn soundbite that we’ve grown used to.

[IBK]

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey, i got called a wenger apologist when i have questioned (and still do) how much money this club actually has to spend, when you factor in how obscene transfer wages and player wages are in the modern game?.
What does that even have to do with AW's competence as manager would be my response?

I'm glad you have raised this point, because recent data has cast doubt on your financial observations about the club.

Only a fool would argue that Citeh and the Chavs do not have an overwhelming, and unfair advantage over everyone else when it comes to buying success. For all their debt - Manure have pretty much remained competitive with these 2 in terms of how much they can pay in transfer fees. But below that, I simply cannot accept that we have been operating at a significant financial disadvantage. This week's publication of the ESPN The Magazine and Sportingintelligence figures show us 11th in the list of highest salary payers in the world (figures given are average annual wage figures).

1 (1) Manchester City, EPL 8,109,912
2 (5) New York Yankees, MLB 8,031,948
3 (2) Los Angeles Dodgers, MLB 7,778,336
4 (3) Real Madrid, La Liga 7,586,438
5 (4) Barcelona, La Liga 7,446,562
6 (16) Brooklyn Nets, NBA 6,814,067
7 (9) Bayern Munich, Bundesliga 6,689,311
8 (12) Manchester United, EPL 6,566,775
9 (19) Chicago Bulls, NBA 6,055,463
10 (8) Chelsea, EPL 6,053,686
11 (15) Arsenal, EPL 5,928,172
12 (20) NY Knicks, NBA 5,867,808
13 (14) Detroit Tigers, MLB 5,824,233
14 (11) Philadelphia Phillies, MLB 5,791,002
15 (22) Boston Red Sox, MLB 5,717,792
16 (17) Miami Heat, NBA 5,568,543
17 (23) San Francisco Giants, MLB 5,490,339
18 (35) Juventus, Serie A 5,336,821
19 (7) LA Lakers, NBA 5,182,926
20 (21) Liverpool, EPL 5,171,351

As can be seen, we are only just behind Chelsea, and 800K ahead of Liverpool. Now I know that this ignores transfer spending - and that is where we have a more legitimate claim to have been relative paupers these past few years - but Rogers has spent 100M on transfers since he has been at Liverpool - and while I haven't checked, I would imagine that we have spent at least this much (for these purposes, net spend is irrelevant).

Bottom line is that IMHO our league position for the past decade has pretty much equated to our relative spend. For me, this simply does not justify the Wenger 'apologists' as you claim to have been labelled. Wenger has done no better than he could have been expected to given our club's spend. Clubs like Liverpool and Everton have undoubtedly exceeded expectations.

As for 'shades of grey' - yes I too find it a bit frustrating not so much that many posters on here see things in black and white ('extreme' positions make for lively debate) - but that relatively few people (not a reference to you as such), will never amend their views even when presented with really good arguments from others.

[IBK]

It’s worth checking out Le Grove. Over the course of the season, they’ve talked about our injury record, spoken to experts at the club, outside the club and it’s really got me thinking. It’s probably why I’m even more pessimistic. I just can’t see where we’ll improve if we don’t change the way we train and prepare for games.

I think Wenger is tactically outdated. Having read about the intense uninterrupted 5 aside sessions, his theory on players learning on the field and not giving instructions….it just doesn’t fill me with confidence. When the players look flat and lack that spark, I don’t believe that’s down to a lack of effort. I think they’re trying to go back to the basics even though confidence is low. If we had team full of great world class players, we’d probably fair better but we don’t and as Blink says, we need to box smarter to compensate.

When you take that into consideration along with our poor injury record, I think it’s too much of a mountain to climb. It’s made me lose hope completely. I’ve heard the arguments about Liverpool and having Suarez. It’s been a perfect storm for them, you’re right and I knew City and Chelsea wouldn’t walk away with the season. We really should have taken advantage of that this year. Suarez has been a beast for Liverpool. ‘Only if we had Suarez’, people say. Would we be able to maintain such a player with our fitness record? That should be the question. We’ve had RVP, Ade, Eduardo, Hleb, Rosicky, Walcott, Nasri….bags of talent in our squad. Goals galore but we’ve never been able to keep the energy levels up for the season or keep everyone fit. In the 2008, the team were left huffing and puffing in the same way this team seem gassed right now. It’s a combination of problems and I can’t see anything changing anytime soon. In his most recent interview he seemed reluctant to blame the staff or his methods but blamed the supplements players were using. Hair supplements. It’s the sort of stubborn soundbite that we’ve grown used to.

Yes - I agree - and I have read Le Grove. What is disturbing is that Wenger - such an intelligent and knowlegable man - sees what is happening year after year but does nothing to change his methods, and refuses even to bring in an expert to assist him to try to update his training methods and solve the problems that we have. He won't change now, and I do not believe that our team will progress any further under him, and may well regress. But I suppose that my position may have altered as regards why. I wonder now whether methods rather than tactics per se are to blame.

[Kano]

Yes - I agree - and I have read Le Grove. What is disturbing is that Wenger - such an intelligent and knowlegable man - sees what is happening year after year but does nothing to change his methods, and refuses even to bring in an expert to assist him to try to update his training methods and solve the problems that we have. He won't change now, and I do not believe that our team will progress any further under him, and may well regress. But I suppose that my position may have altered as regards why. I wonder now whether methods rather than tactics per se are to blame.
Blaming it on injuries/methods still allows some room to suggest part of the problem is out of his hands. Problems on the field, as well as off, have gone on too long to suggest it is not entirely the managers fault.

Despite missing key players there is no excuse to be pummelled as we have been numerous times. I'm not sure any team in the league can match such a poor record away to top four opposition this season. Going back further we have struggled to beat top four teams with more players available. It's clearly a tactical as well as training issue that needs to be resolved at our club. If we want to beat teams above us we need to do far more than just 'play our game'. Even with a weakened team at the very least we should be hard to beat but that has been ruthlessly exposed this season. Even with all those players available this season, they would need a proper game plan to overcome teams of similar ability. It's why we've never done that well in the CL too.

[Letters]

I'm not sure any team in the league can match such a poor record away to top four opposition this season.
Liverpool lost all 3 away games against the rest of the top 4.

#justsayin'

But yeah, we shouldn't be getting humped like we have.

[Power n Glory]

Yes - I agree - and I have read Le Grove. What is disturbing is that Wenger - such an intelligent and knowlegable man - sees what is happening year after year but does nothing to change his methods, and refuses even to bring in an expert to assist him to try to update his training methods and solve the problems that we have. He won't change now, and I do not believe that our team will progress any further under him, and may well regress. But I suppose that my position may have altered as regards why. I wonder now whether methods rather than tactics per se are to blame.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to impose our brand of football on the opposition. I can almost understand why Wenger would want to avoid get bogged down in man marking players like Messi because it can stop a players natural game and can be perceived as negative. In theory, I can understand it. But I have no idea if he recognises the weak areas in our team and why certain combinations of players work over others. He's an intelligent guy so he must know, but we still see this stubborn streak that almost defies all logic. I can only put it down to what Fergie said about his arrogance and refusing to believe his approach won't work. I think it's a combination of both.

[Power n Glory]

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey, i got called a wenger apologist when i have questioned (and still do) how much money this club actually has to spend, when you factor in how obscene transfer wages and player wages are in the modern game?.
What does that even have to do with AW's competence as manager would be my response?

That's an issue we disagree on. I think we're in a healthy position and should adjust our wage bill. But we've been over that and I know you're not a Wenger apologist. These labels shouldn't be thrown around even if we do disagree on certain aspects of the club.

[Kano]

Liverpool lost all 3 away games against the rest of the top 4.

#justsayin'

But yeah, we shouldn't be getting humped like we have.
You're second line is what I was getting at. Losing is one thing but getting humiliated like that across the season is exceptionally bad. Other teams can match the defeat record but even the poor ones realise they have to tighten up at times.

[Letters]

You're second line is what I was getting at. Losing is one thing but getting humiliated like that across the season is exceptionally bad. Teams can match the defeat record but even the poor ones realise they have to tighten up at times.

It happening 3 times in one season is pretty bad (arguably twice, I thought we played pretty well at City and could have been closer).
You'd have thought after the 2nd one we'd have approached the 3rd differently.

[Niall_Quinn]

As can be seen, we are only just behind Chelsea, and 800K ahead of Liverpool. Now I know that this ignores transfer spending - and that is where we have a more legitimate claim to have been relative paupers these past few years - but Rogers has spent 100M on transfers since he has been at Liverpool - and while I haven't checked, I would imagine that we have spent at least this much (for these purposes, net spend is irrelevant).

Other way around - gross spend irrelevant, net spend all important. A negative net spend shows talent going out, negative plus shows talent coming in. In the main. And you don't really need to examine the figures because it's self evident when you see who we sold compared to who we bought. The quality has ebbed away all over the pitch - consequence of funding business operations with player transfers. Should reverse now though, first signs of that being last summer.

[Özim]

Anyway, someone posts the post-match interview with Wenger in which he was asked about the supposed foul by Arteta. He gave a completely reasonable response about how he didn't think it was a foul (which the MoTD pundits concurred with) and said it was 70 yards from goal anyway. Zimm's response:



What's that? :o Wenger is biased towards his own team? OUTRAGEOUS! (There is a school of thought which says that people who call themselves Arsenal fans should be that way...) And note how Zim completely ignores the part where Wenger said he didn't think it was a foul anyway.

Zim never misses an opportunity to have a dig at Wenger. And if there isn't a real opportunity he makes one up. It goes way beyond pessimism, it's real bitter hatred. It's completely bizarre.

Yes I made that point for a good reason, as you well pointed out he is very biased and thus this gives his opinion little weight at all if he's unable to look at a situation impartially when asked about it, the point wasn't whether it was a foul or not but how objective he can be about situations (and that goes for his opinion on his team as well).

For me the point is Wenger irritates me with comments like this and if I'm honest his complete BS when we've collapsed rubs me up the wrong way, if we were losing and he was honest about it I'd have much more respect, but his patronising comments grate me and have for a long time.

So yes I'm sick of the tales, the empty promises and blind faith.

This lack of objectivity is actually a big problem for us, because he refuses to recognise the limitations of his team, the bad defeats are just unlucky and whatever happens he goes off praising his team, I don't want to hear the team praised when it collapses faster than a deck of cards on in a hurricane, I want honest views and comments about how we're not good enough.

It wasn't a dig at him so much as criticism of something he does which impacts our chances of progress.

[Letters]

Yes I made that point for a good reason
Blind, bitter hatred isn't a good reason.

Wenger is biased, of course. So are all managers. So are all (proper) fans.
Mourinho, who you fawn over, completely embarrassed himself on Saturday by sarcastically congratulating the referees for conspiring against him :lol:. Had Wenger said something that stupid you'd have had a field day. In this interview he was asked about the Arteta incident, Bruce (biased towards his own team) had said it was a foul and the resulting goal changed the game. Wenger pointed out it was miles from their goal - so they should have had time to get back and cover - and in any case he didn't think it was a foul (the MoTD pundits agreed so you can hardly say that opinion is a case of Wenger's bias.

Wenger irritates you just by breathing. It was a good performance, a good result and a perfectly reasonable comment. There was nothing negative to say so in desperation you made up something. It's pathetic.

EDIT: The irony it it's actually you who has lost all sense of objectivity. Your blind hatred of Wenger is so strong you can't tell the difference between Wenger making a perfectly reasonable comment and a stupid one (which he does sometimes, but I'd suggest no more than most managers)

[Power n Glory]

The other Mods need to have a word with you Letters. Why are you constantly stalking Zim and dragging old irrelevant crap from one thread to another? A pretty reasonable debate going on and somehow you guys are allowed to get away with calling other fans 'twats, filth, arseholes' and whatever else. Stop provoking BS.

[Letters]

The other Mods need to have a word with you Letters. Why are you constantly stalking Zim and dragging old irrelevant crap from one thread to another? A pretty reasonable debate going on and somehow you guys are allowed to get away with calling other fans 'twats, filth, arseholes' and whatever else. Stop provoking BS.

I've not stopped Zim having his say, I'm perfectly entitled to have mine.
As for the name calling, I don't think anyone has named names so there's no personal abuse.
Feel free to report posts if you think they've broken forum rules though.
:tiphat:

[Power n Glory]

I'll keep that in mind. :good:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'll keep that in mind. :good:

No you won't (points MIB style memory erasing stick at you)

[Özim]

Blind, bitter hatred isn't a good reason.

Wenger is biased, of course. So are all managers. So are all (proper) fans.
Mourinho, who you fawn over, completely embarrassed himself on Saturday by sarcastically congratulating the referees for conspiring against him :lol:. Had Wenger said something that stupid you'd have had a field day. In this interview he was asked about the Arteta incident, Bruce (biased towards his own team) had said it was a foul and the resulting goal changed the game. Wenger pointed out it was miles from their goal - so they should have had time to get back and cover - and in any case he didn't think it was a foul (the MoTD pundits agreed so you can hardly say that opinion is a case of Wenger's bias.

Wenger irritates you just by breathing. It was a good performance, a good result and a perfectly reasonable comment. There was nothing negative to say so in desperation you made up something. It's pathetic.

EDIT: The irony it it's actually you who has lost all sense of objectivity. Your blind hatred of Wenger is so strong you can't tell the difference between Wenger making a perfectly reasonable comment and a stupid one (which he does sometimes, but I'd suggest no more than most managers)

It doesn't seem like you read anything I posted.

Wenger lack of objectivity is the reason we are where we are, his blind faith and inability to see anything wrong with his team year after year prevents any progress.

Oh and it's not bitterness, I'm just sick of the guy after too many years seeing the same patterns repeated time and time again, it seems some of you are so in awe of him that he can fail and fail again without it really getting to you, it's almost like he's brainwashed fans into accepting his points of view.

Wenger is the manager of the club I support, so yes I would have my say, what Mourinho does and says doesn't affect me, it amazes me how much it affects other people though, why should it it has no impact on anything at our club?

[Letters]

'support' :lol:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Goonersweb :lol:

What a mess.

[GP]

Should rename it Goonersmess tbh

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Quiet you five year olds

[Letters]

Wenger lack of objectivity is the reason we are where we are

OK. That's a reasonable opinion. But was this an example of it? If it was a clear, blatant foul and Wenger's swearing black is white that he never touched him then you may have a point but it was a 50-50 decision. You see them given but you see them not too. Bruce, predictably, said it was a foul. Wenger said he didn't think it was. The MoTD pundits agreed with Wenger. It was a completely reasonable response, it didn't show a lack of objectivity. No-one else on here thought to pick him up on it because there was nothing to pick up. You, as always, couldn't help yourself. Good performance, good won, no real reason to have a go at Wenger so you manufacture one.

In terms of his overall objectivity, you have to separate what Wenger says in interviews and what he believes. All managers quite regularly spout a load of balls in the heat of the moment straight after a game, particularly a game where the result went the wrong way for them.
So yes, he does come out with some rubbish sometimes but so do all of them. And this wasn't an example.


it seems some of you are so in awe of him that he can fail and fail again without it really getting to you

You accuse me of not reading your posts, this comment indicates you aren't reading anyone else's posts. Literally no-one is posting like they're in awe of him. A lot of people still respect him, I am one of them. But I feel his time with us is coming to an end. I hope we win the FA Cup as much for him as for the club, I think he deserves one last success.

[Özim]

OK. That's a reasonable opinion. But was this an example of it? If it was a clear, blatant foul and Wenger's swearing black is white that he never touched him then you may have a point but it was a 50-50 decision. You see them given but you see them not too. Bruce, predictably, said it was a foul. Wenger said he didn't think it was. The MoTD pundits agreed with Wenger. It was a completely reasonable response, it didn't show a lack of objectivity. No-one else on here thought to pick him up on it because there was nothing to pick up. You, as always, couldn't help yourself. Good performance, good won, no real reason to have a go at Wenger so you manufacture one.

In terms of his overall objectivity, you have to separate what Wenger says in interviews and what he believes. All managers quite regularly spout a load of balls in the heat of the moment straight after a game, particularly a game where the result went the wrong way for them.
So yes, he does come out with some rubbish sometimes but so do all of them. And this wasn't an example.

It wasn't actually about the foul, it was the 70 yards comment, he was basically saying that even if it was it would have had no relation to the goal, but yet if it happens to us he says something different.

My point was that if something happens to us, bad luck plays a part etc, it's like it's never the teams fault and this is my issue, he deflects the heat off his team too much and it's not just in public, it's confirmed by his policies and the signings he does or doesn't make.

It was really about the situation on Saturday more about his general perspective when it comes to his team and events that occur in a match


You accuse me of not reading your posts, this comment indicates you aren't reading anyone else's posts. Literally no-one is posting like they're in awe of him. A lot of people still respect him, I am one of them. But I feel his time with us is coming to an end. I hope we win the FA Cup as much for him as for the club, I think he deserves one last success.

I dunno, there always seems to be some sort of excuse for Wenger, it's a case of "yes this didn't work out but, he has done this", if he's not doing the job well enough there's no need to soften a point with a counter argument in the same sentence IMO. It's pretty clear in my eyes, he's had 9 years experimenting and doing as he pleases with the team and it's not worked, he just won't recognise this or change and thus for me there's nowhere for him to go if he won't.

[Letters]

he was basically saying that even if it was it would have had no relation to the goal, but yet if it happens to us he says something different.
Like every other football manager.
In the history of football.

[Power n Glory]

OK. That's a reasonable opinion. But was this an example of it? If it was a clear, blatant foul and Wenger's swearing black is white that he never touched him then you may have a point but it was a 50-50 decision. You see them given but you see them not too. Bruce, predictably, said it was a foul. Wenger said he didn't think it was. The MoTD pundits agreed with Wenger. It was a completely reasonable response, it didn't show a lack of objectivity. No-one else on here thought to pick him up on it because there was nothing to pick up. You, as always, couldn't help yourself. Good performance, good won, no real reason to have a go at Wenger so you manufacture one.

In terms of his overall objectivity, you have to separate what Wenger says in interviews and what he believes. All managers quite regularly spout a load of balls in the heat of the moment straight after a game, particularly a game where the result went the wrong way for them.
So yes, he does come out with some rubbish sometimes but so do all of them. And this wasn't an example.



You accuse me of not reading your posts, this comment indicates you aren't reading anyone else's posts. Literally no-one is posting like they're in awe of him. A lot of people still respect him, I am one of them. But I feel his time with us is coming to an end. I hope we win the FA Cup as much for him as for the club, I think he deserves one last success.

What about this? It's the sort of thing that drives me up the wall and it's hard to just brush it off because we've done very little to sort out our injury problems so it worries me if this is his theory.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/apr/04/arsenal-injuries-supplements-arsene-wenger


Wenger said that the internal review had yet to yield any hard and fast conclusions but he advanced a personal theory. "Some of them [muscle injuries] are down to the medication that the players take that you don't even know about. Then you realise afterwards that they took this medication but that's not prudent."

He added that certain medication could affect the liver and then it "doesn't work as well ... the toxins don't go as quickly out of the body as they should and they [the players] get tired". Injuries are sometimes the result of lower levels of stamina; if a player is, to borrow a phrase from Wenger "in the red".

He was asked to give examples of the kind of medication he was referring to. "If you lose your hair and you've taken something to make your hair grow, it might not be good, especially for the rest of your body," he said. "Medication always pushes a part of your body and is sometimes detrimental to other parts of your body.

"At the moment, we have not come to any conclusion … every case can be very different and you need to analyse very deeply why things happen. I'm surrounded by people who want to enhance their performances because they have another problem in their life and it's not always necessarily a good thing to do."

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

That article :haha:

[Letters]

What about this? It's the sort of thing that drives me up the wall and it's hard to just brush it off because we've done very little to sort out our injury problems so it worries me if this is his theory.
Well, he says it's an ongoing investigation but yeah, I don't really buy it's supplements causing the problem.
They definitely need to sort this out, it's killed us again this year. Hopefully their investigation will yield some results.
It shouldn't have taken this long to look into it, it's happened too many times now.

[Kano]

Well, he says it's an ongoing investigation but yeah, I don't really buy it's supplements causing the problem.
They definitely need to sort this out, it's killed us again this year. Hopefully their investigation will yield some results.
It shouldn't have taken this long to look into it, it's happened too many times now.

nothing changes really

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-we-have-investigated-injury-problems

[Power n Glory]

"Sometimes we rush the players a bit back. For example, against Aston Villa, we had Cesc Fabregas on the bench. I knew before the game that I will not play him but, at some stage, I decided to play him, knowing that it [another injury] could happen.

Oh dear! You are right, nothing changes.

I remember he did the same for Wilshere and he's said the same recently about Ramsey and Giroud.

[IBK]

Other way around - gross spend irrelevant, net spend all important. A negative net spend shows talent going out, negative plus shows talent coming in. In the main. And you don't really need to examine the figures because it's self evident when you see who we sold compared to who we bought. The quality has ebbed away all over the pitch - consequence of funding business operations with player transfers. Should reverse now though, first signs of that being last summer.


No - for comparative purposes, I think that net spend is irrelevant. Look at it this way - Liverpool have funded player purchases without having to sell the crown jewels. Granted, the financial model is an alternative to ours. But without financial doping they have made effective use of their resources. For me, its where both clubs are now - in light of spending (not sales) that is a valid comparison of our respective achievements.

[Letters]

I dunno, there always seems to be some sort of excuse for Wenger, it's a case of "yes this didn't work out but, he has done this"
Well yes, there are always shades of grey. It's not excusing anything, it's just analysing things critically rather than taking a simple-minded black and white view of everything.

Literally no-one posts on here as if Wenger can do no wrong.
Some people do post as if everything he does is wrong.

We haven't won anything for 9 years, that doesn't mean the whole 9 years have been an abject failure.
Wenger clearly has some failings, that doesn't mean he's a complete incompetent who can't do anything right.

[IBK]

Well yes, there are always shades of grey. It's not excusing anything, it's just analysing things critically rather than taking a simple-minded black and white view of everything.

Literally no-one posts on here as if Wenger can do no wrong.
Some people do post as if everything he does is wrong.

We haven't won anything for 9 years, that doesn't mean the whole 9 years have been an abject failure.
Wenger clearly has some failings, that doesn't mean he's a complete incompetent who can't do anything right.

Zimm has wanted Wenger gone for 5 years but I'm not sure that he has claimed that Wenger is an abject failure? :unsure:

[Letters]

Zimm has wanted Wenger gone for 5 years but I'm not sure that he has claimed that Wenger is an abject failure? :unsure:
I seriously can't remember the last time I saw him say anything the slightest bit positive about him. As I've said in this thread he goes out of his way to find something to criticise him for even when there are, at best, very flimsy reasons for doing so.

[WMUG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prjhQcqiGQc

[Özim]

I seriously can't remember the last time I saw him say anything the slightest bit positive about him. As I've said in this thread he goes out of his way to find something to criticise him for even when there are, at best, very flimsy reasons for doing so.

I don't go out of my way, I have postive things to say about players and occasionally matches, but I'm underwhelmed with our displays on the whole, I don't even really like our football much, the few times we've played counter attack it's been much better though.

I don't have much positivity with regards Wenger though, that's what 9 years of the same thing does, he undoes most of the good work he does in the space of a few months IMO with strange and poor management decisions.

I've made it clear I want him out now, I'm not sure why I should be offering titbits of praise when I'd be contradicting what I feel. As a top level manager I just don't rate him anymore.

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prjhQcqiGQc

:lol:

Dental plan!

[Power n Glory]

I seriously can't remember the last time I saw him say anything the slightest bit positive about him. As I've said in this thread he goes out of his way to find something to criticise him for even when there are, at best, very flimsy reasons for doing so.

Wenger hasn’t made it easy for himself. In January 2010 he admits to overplaying Cesc and we’ll investigate the cause for so many injuries. 4 years down the line and he’s still mystified by our injury problem and has some wild theory about hair products. What are we to conclude from that? If he’s not incompetent (harsh words, I know) then what’s going on? I don’t know what else to conclude. He knows he’s overplaying players but won’t rest them or buy to ease the burden.

[Letters]

I don't go out of my way.
We won 3-0. It was a good result and performance. Wenger makes a perfectly reasonable comment and you take the opportunity to criticise him for being biased towards the team he manages :lol:
Every bloody manager is biased towards the team he manages.

So yeah, you really do.

[Özim]

We won 3-0. It was a good result and performance. Wenger makes a perfectly reasonable comment and you take the opportunity to criticise him for being biased towards the team he manages :lol:
Every bloody manager is biased towards the team he manages.

So yeah, you really do.

Again no, it was a decent result but let's not go over the top it wasn't like we were playing a top team, moreover we have dropped from 1st to 4th with no chance of any higher position in a short space of time so there results are somewhat underwhelming now (already said 4th is meaningless to me).

All he had to say was it wasn't a foul in his opinion, I'd have been fine with that, it's when he mentioned the 70 yard thing and thus this being totally unrelated to the goal it bugged me, simply because he says this but when it happens to him that's not an issue.

Yeah his interviews do irritate me, they're full of contradictions, blind faith and delusional statements about his team, the problem with this is that as a fan it's pretty tiresome to hear the manager of a team who have collapsed every season for as long as you can remember remain in complete denial, as long as this happens you know nothing will ever change and that is frustrating to say the least. People complain when other manager's/pundits say things about Wenger, but actually he does himself no favours with his post match comments.

IMO Wenger gets a really easy ride, he's had almost unparalled support from the club and fans over the years, he still does, there isn't another big club in the world he'd have lasted this long in the job.

[Letters]

:blah:

Aye, whatever.

[Ollie the Optimist]

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

[IBK]

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

A good point, and well made.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

Five points behind with three games to go?.....they would realistically have to hope that they beat Liverpool,that city drop points against palace and Everton and that Liverpoool lose to palace for them to win the title. I despise Mourinho but to be honest in his position I'd do exactly the same thing.

[Globalgunner]

Funny how this thread about Wenger has become all about 1 poster. Zimm isnt earning 8M p.a. and doing little to justify it, Winning sweet fa for almost 9 years

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Goonersmess :haha:

[GP]

http://i.imgur.com/taVQbOF.gif

[Dein-machine]

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

You're right Wenger as nothing like Mourinho - doesn't have the tactical ability to beat him or any of the other top teams, hasn't won a trophy in a decade & hasn't won the Champions league. Mourinho is a bad loser & comes across as a spoilt brat at times but some of the crap Wenger has come out with in recent years is actually more embarrassing. I don't give a f--k what Mourinho says or does, you only have to look at the way they set up against Madrid this week to see how his tactics work & the success they have brought him - when was the last time we were hailing our tactical genius of a manager. We should spend less time worrying about what these guys say after games & just look at what their teams do on the pitch.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Funny how this thread about Wenger has become all about 1 poster. Zimm isnt earning 8M p.a. and doing little to justify it, Winning sweet fa for almost 9 years

how do you know that?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're right Wenger as nothing like Mourinho - doesn't have the tactical ability to beat him or any of the other top teams, hasn't won a trophy in a decade & hasn't won the Champions league. Mourinho is a bad loser & comes across as a spoilt brat at times but some of the crap Wenger has come out with in recent years is actually more embarrassing. I don't give a f--k what Mourinho says or does, you only have to look at the way they set up against Madrid this week to see how his tactics work & the success they have brought him - when was the last time we were hailing our tactical genius of a manager. We should spend less time worrying about what these guys say after games & just look at what their teams do on the pitch.


I'm sorry but i don't want to hear about Mourinho, i think a club like Chelsea should be ashamed that their manager resorts to playing the way they did against a smaller club like Atletico Madrid with the infinite resources they have. It's bad enough that they have the kind of money they have to spend irradicating any sense of building a club up whilst remaining fiscally responsible, but you'd think at the very least there would be some element of entertainment in what they do.

Playing 11 men behind the ball doesn't make you a tactical genius, it makes you someone who is more afraid to lose than determined to win.

This isn't about defending Wenger, any half decent manager could tactically outsmart him....but don't try and make Mourinho out at this brilliant schemer able to adapt to any given situation...he's a man who acheives things with a generous cheque book and doesn't even have the guts to do so with flair and style...pernicious little coward.

[Letters]

some of the crap Wenger has come out with in recent years is actually more embarrassing.
More embarrassing than claiming the refs are conspiring to stop Chelsea win the league when it was actually his own team's failings?
:lol:

Not really.

[Power n Glory]

People on this board do the same thing when it comes to refs.

I also hate the way people use billionaire clubs to mask our failings.

Jose is a funny character. I don't pay him too much mind. His most shameful moment has to be the eye gouge incident with Barca.

[Bumble]

I'm sorry but i don't want to hear about Mourinho, i think a club like Chelsea should be ashamed that their manager resorts to playing the way they did against a smaller club like Atletico Madrid with the infinite resources they have. It's bad enough that they have the kind of money they have to spend irradicating any sense of building a club up whilst remaining fiscally responsible, but you'd think at the very least there would be some element of entertainment in what they do.

Playing 11 men behind the ball doesn't make you a tactical genius, it makes you someone who is more afraid to lose than determined to win.

This isn't about defending Wenger, any half decent manager could tactically outsmart him....but don't try and make Mourinho out at this brilliant schemer able to adapt to any given situation...he's a man who acheives things with a generous cheque book and doesn't even have the guts to do so with flair and style...pernicious little coward.

i agree, cant stand mourinho and he sucks the life out of football. what makes it worse is that he will probably succeed with the tactic and then we have to watch it again in the final when they spawn there way to a win on penalties.

[Power n Glory]

His brand of football is mind numbingly boring. His interviews are entertaining but I can't say the same about his football.

[Letters]

I also hate the way people use billionaire clubs to mask our failings.
It's hardly an irrelevance.

And yes yes, Liverpool. But let's see if they sustain it when they have a CL campaign and the pressure of being champions, especially if someone goes *yoink* and turns Suarez's head.

I do agree that it's not the only reason for our failings though.

[Globalgunner]

how do you know that?


Well I know for a fact that Zimm only earns. £7,999,999 and his Sunday league team are tops of the Cant stand Wenger, little league. I could be making it up though.

Zimm speaks to the truth.........Letters on the other hand...

[Globalgunner]

i agree, cant stand mourinho and he sucks the life out of football. what makes it worse is that he will probably succeed with the tactic and then we have to watch it again in the final when they spawn there way to a win on penalties.

Mourinho is proof positive to the hard up billions amongst us that Money doesnt usually make you a better person....Most often it amplifies your worst traits.

[Letters]

Zimm speaks to the truth.........Letters on the other hand...
Do carry on. I what?

:popcorn:

[Dein-machine]

More embarrassing than claiming the refs are conspiring to stop Chelsea win the league when it was actually his own team's failings?
:lol:

Not really.

Try - "one accident doesn't make you a bad driver" - that after our 3rd consecutive humiliation against a top 4 side.

Yes really.

[Letters]

You think that's as embarrassing as saying the whole football establishment is conspiring against you?

:lol:

OK. We'll agree to disagree about that :good:

[Dein-machine]

I'm sorry but i don't want to hear about Mourinho, i think a club like Chelsea should be ashamed that their manager resorts to playing the way they did against a smaller club like Atletico Madrid with the infinite resources they have. It's bad enough that they have the kind of money they have to spend irradicating any sense of building a club up whilst remaining fiscally responsible, but you'd think at the very least there would be some element of entertainment in what they do.

Playing 11 men behind the ball doesn't make you a tactical genius, it makes you someone who is more afraid to lose than determined to win.




This isn't about defending Wenger, any half decent manager could tactically outsmart him....but don't try and make Mourinho out at this brilliant schemer able to adapt to any given situation...he's a man who acheives things with a generous cheque book and doesn't even have the guts to do so with flair and style...pernicious little coward.

I doubt anyone on this site wants to discuss Mourinho but it was bought into this thread by someone else suggesting that our manager doesn't act like him - he does.
Like us he doesn't have quality forwards so he went into the modweek game against the current La Liga leaders with a game plan to win over 2 legs. I don't like the negativity either but its exactly what we did earlier this year at Dortmund & Napoli aswell as against Bayern when we needed to score goals - Mourinho wouldn't have been that negative.
Mourinho won the Champions league with Porto through tactical nous & NO cheque book along with stopping the Barca romp in Spain with their supposed unbeatable team by spending far less than his predecessors.

Mournho is a spoilt brat whom I would love to come across in a dark alley but he is a winner. He breeds that mentality. We have a manager who thinks 4th is wonderful & we should all be so grateful whilst showing his ambitious side by buying a 32 year old Swede with a bad back to save a crumbling season in Jan. Mourinho saw the same need & bought Matic back. Don't say because he had the money, this wasn't a Bale deal! - we should & could have paid that aswell.

[Dein-machine]

You think that's as embarrassing as saying the whole football establishment is conspiring against you?

:lol:

OK. We'll agree to disagree about that :good:

Its what football managers do - have you never heard Wenger whinge about how the league have favoured Man Utd with fixtures etc in the past. He has been one of the biggest *******s in football over the past half a dozen years - its why other fans name him Arsene *******. Wasn't doing it so much when he was winning things but then in recent years he's needed to find other excuses - which ofcourse is what Mourinho has done lately once he realised the league was gone. Those things I can live with even Sir Alex did the same at times but when you come out with quotes like the "one accident doesn't make you a bad driver" after the tactical disasters this man continues to conjure up- its actually embarrassing to think that he believes anyone with a brain, even Gooners, don't find it laughable.

[Power n Glory]

It's hardly an irrelevance.

And yes yes, Liverpool. But let's see if they sustain it when they have a CL campaign and the pressure of being champions, especially if someone goes *yoink* and turns Suarez's head.

I do agree that it's not the only reason for our failings though.

Liverpool may finally win the league this year but they have won cups and the CL I between that period. Don't forget that.

It's a factor but it's used to mask our failures way too much.

[I am invisible]

i agree, cant stand mourinho and he sucks the life out of football. what makes it worse is that he will probably succeed with the tactic and then we have to watch it again in the final when they spawn there way to a win on penalties.

What makes it even worse still is that other clubs will then see it as the blueprint for success and adopt the same tactic - then we'll have to watch it every week, in every game we play (just like the dog shit sandwich we were left with the first time Mourinho took charge of Chelsea)!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I used to blame the financial downturn of 29 for poor performances when I managed Arsenal

[Letters]

I used to blame the financial downturn of 29 for poor performances when I managed Arsenal
:haha:

[Letters]

Its what football managers do - have you never heard Wenger whinge about how the league have favoured Man Utd with fixtures etc in the past.
Of course, they all come out with a load of nonsense. I wouldn't saw Wenger any more than most although he is more high profile than most and, being Arsenal fans, we probably notice it with him more.

I don't think this is the biggest problem with Wenger, hardly worthy of comment at all really as they pretty much all do it. It seems to be used by those with an anti-Wenger agenda as another stick to beat him with though.

[Özim]

The amount of cringeworthy things Wenger has come out with over the years rivals any other manager, that's why people take the p*ss out of the "i did not see it" comments amongst other things, he does himself no favours.

You can get away with this to some extent if you're winning, but not if losing and after 9 years of it i've had enough of his patronising bs.

His comments reflect this blind faith he seems to have when it comes to his team as well.

[Power n Glory]

The amount of cringeworthy things Wenger has come out with over the years rivals any other manager, that's why people take the p*ss out of the "i did not see it" comments amongst other things, he does himself no favours.

You can get away with this to some extent if you're winning, but not if losing and after 9 years of it i've had enough of his patronising bs.

His comments reflect this blind faith he seems to have when it comes to his team as well.

That’s the part Letter’s fails to understand. When you haven’t won anything in 9 years, you can’t blame schedules, poor ref decisions or hair products for our ‘misfortunes’. You’ve got to delve deeper into the problems and come up with solid solutions. When you hear the same soundbites over and over again, followed by the same action or lack of action, I can only conclude there is some form of disconnect in Wenger’s mind to what’s really going on. You can’t argue the merits of consistently qualifying for the Champions League but pin the blame on luck and misfortune when we haven’t won anything for so long.

[Özim]

That’s the part Letter’s fails to understand. When you haven’t won anything in 9 years, you can’t blame schedules, poor ref decisions or hair products for our ‘misfortunes’. You’ve got to delve deeper into the problems and come up with solid solutions. When you hear the same soundbites over and over again, followed by the same action or lack of action, I can only conclude there is some form of disconnect in Wenger’s mind to what’s really going on. You can’t argue the merits of consistently qualifying for the Champions League but pin the blame on luck and misfortune when we haven’t won anything for so long.

Totally agree, if he said one thing and did another it wouldn't bother me so much, it's the fact his words echo what happens on the pitch which grate me, everytime he comes out with his usual comments it's confirmation he's not really going to be doing much to fix the problems as he see's them a minor glitches which will largely fix themselves.

I don't know why people fail to see this.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That’s the part Letter’s fails to understand. When you haven’t won anything in 9 years, you can’t blame schedules, poor ref decisions or hair products for our ‘misfortunes’. You’ve got to delve deeper into the problems and come up with solid solutions. When you hear the same soundbites over and over again, followed by the same action or lack of action, I can only conclude there is some form of disconnect in Wenger’s mind to what’s really going on. You can’t argue the merits of consistently qualifying for the Champions League but pin the blame on luck and misfortune when we haven’t won anything for so long.

I don't think anything Wenger says or doesn't say to the press has any bearing or significance to his performance as manager. If I was in his situation I'd give them the same bland robotic sound bytes that he does, plus even if you acknowledge that big defeats are your fault I don't see there is anything to be gained by admitting this to the media as if they are some impartial confidant who won't use your own words against you.

[Power n Glory]

Totally agree, if he said one thing and did another it wouldn't bother me so much, it's the fact his words echo what happens on the pitch which grate me, everytime he comes out with his usual comments it's confirmation he's not really going to be doing much to fix the problems as he see's them a minor glitches which will largely fix themselves.

I don't know why people fail to see this.

They say it's the Wenger smokescreen. He gets off lightly. He really should be taken to school on the injury record. What happened to the investigation in 2010? The more you look into it, the more you wonder.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think there is a difference between myself who thinks the club can only progress with a new manager at the helm and someone who actually has a pathological dislike for Wenger. I'm not going to comment on everything the man says and does, but I think Letters has a case that certain posters seem to look for anything as a tenuous excuse to put the boot in.
He hasn't won anything for nine years, his tactics don't work anymore, he is too stubborn to change....he should walk away. He's not Adolf Hitler, he's not the worst thing to happen to Arsenal football club, he's not the reason you broke up with your girlfriend, nor is he the reason you can't hold down a job or sustain an erection. It's like the Zealots who criticise this government, I despise George Osbourne and I think we could do better but people who say this government is the worst government we've ever had and Cameron is the worst prime minister we've ever had have very short memories.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think anything Wenger says or doesn't say to the press has any bearing or significance to his performance as manager. If I was in his situation I'd give them the same bland robotic sound bytes that he does, plus even if you acknowledge that big defeats are your fault I don't see there is anything to be gained by admitting this to the media as if they are some impartial confidant who won't use your own words against you.

But it’s not bland or robotic. He plays his hand when he talks about financial doping and that’s what he truly believes. He’s an idealist and speaks from the heart. Only when he’s really upset have I seen him resort to stinging sarcasm or he can get playful and witty when dodging awkward questions. When he says buying isn’t always the answer and that he has faith in his current crop of players, after 9 years, I don’t think he’s lying.

[fakeyank]

I doubt anyone on this site wants to discuss Mourinho but it was bought into this thread by someone else suggesting that our manager doesn't act like him - he does.
Like us he doesn't have quality forwards so he went into the modweek game against the current La Liga leaders with a game plan to win over 2 legs. I don't like the negativity either but its exactly what we did earlier this year at Dortmund & Napoli aswell as against Bayern when we needed to score goals - Mourinho wouldn't have been that negative.
Mourinho won the Champions league with Porto through tactical nous & NO cheque book along with stopping the Barca romp in Spain with their supposed unbeatable team by spending far less than his predecessors.

Mournho is a spoilt brat whom I would love to come across in a dark alley but he is a winner. He breeds that mentality. We have a manager who thinks 4th is wonderful & we should all be so grateful whilst showing his ambitious side by buying a 32 year old Swede with a bad back to save a crumbling season in Jan. Mourinho saw the same need & bought Matic back. Don't say because he had the money, this wasn't a Bale deal! - we should & could have paid that aswell.

That is a phenomenally awesome post. I despise Mourinho as a human being but that man is a tactical genius. People blaming him for playing boring football havent seen Arsenal play the last few years. We probably play one of the most boring form of football I can remember watching. I dont mind being bored if it was part of a tactical plan to something effective. It unfortunately is not... we have no plan B. Sometimes I wonder if we even have a Plan A!

[Özim]

But it’s not bland or robotic. He plays his hand when he talks about financial doping and that’s what he truly believes. He’s an idealist and speaks from the heart. Only when he’s really upset have I seen him resort to stinging sarcasm or he can get playful and witty when dodging awkward questions. When he says buying isn’t always the answer and that he has faith in his current crop of players, after 9 years, I don’t think he’s lying.

Yeah agree with this, the proofs in the pudding as they say and his words very much reflect what he does in these scenarios.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

When he says buying isn’t always the answer and that he has faith in his current crop of players, after 9 years, I don’t think he’s lying.

So you admit that's supposition rather than fact. Plus that's a very bland blanket statement, its a statement that doesn't offend anyone whose not looking to take offence.

[Özim]

I think there is a difference between myself who thinks the club can only progress with a new manager at the helm and someone who actually has a pathological dislike for Wenger. I'm not going to comment on everything the man says and does, but I think Letters has a case that certain posters seem to look for anything as a tenuous excuse to put the boot in.
He hasn't won anything for nine years, his tactics don't work anymore, he is too stubborn to change....he should walk away. He's not Adolf Hitler, he's not the worst thing to happen to Arsenal football club, he's not the reason you broke up with your girlfriend, nor is he the reason you can't hold down a job or sustain an erection. It's like the Zealots who criticise this government, I despise George Osbourne and I think we could do better but people who say this government is the worst government we've ever had and Cameron is the worst prime minister we've ever had have very short memories.

Pathological dislike?

That's not the case, maybe some of us aren't too keen on people who feed the fan lies whilst failing to deliver on the pitch time and time again and continuing to be in total denial about it.

I don't pathologically dislike him, I do however think his management ability based on what I've seen in the last 10 years is vastly overrated and I certainly don't appreciate his words regarding 4th place and his constant praise for a team that fails time and time again.

In reality he's had a pretty easy ride and despite 9 years with little success there are very few people questioning him other than some fans, many are still of the opinion that noone else can do the job he does and that he's a great manager, I'm not so sure.

[Power n Glory]

I think there is a difference between myself who thinks the club can only progress with a new manager at the helm and someone who actually has a pathological dislike for Wenger. I'm not going to comment on everything the man says and does, but I think Letters has a case that certain posters seem to look for anything as a tenuous excuse to put the boot in.
He hasn't won anything for nine years, his tactics don't work anymore, he is too stubborn to change....he should walk away. He's not Adolf Hitler, he's not the worst thing to happen to Arsenal football club, he's not the reason you broke up with your girlfriend, nor is he the reason you can't hold down a job or sustain an erection. It's like the Zealots who criticise this government, I despise George Osbourne and I think we could do better but people who say this government is the worst government we've ever had and Cameron is the worst prime minister we've ever had have very short memories.

Letter’s has a pathological dislike for Zimm and has gone about highlighting every negative post Zimm has written about Wenger. That to me seems personal and keeps getting whipped up. You’ve got to question that if we’re talking pathological dislike.

[Letters]

That’s the part Letter’s fails to understand.
I don't 'fail to understand' anything. Wenger doesn't wash his dirty linen in public. Maybe he should be a bit more honest sometimes but if I screw up I don't particularly want my manager bawling me out in public. The idea that we can see some of our player's failings and Wenger can't is laughable. He works with them every day, we only see them a couple of hours a week. Whether he's able to do anything about it is a different matter but if we finish 4th and win the Cup that will have been a decent season, hardly deserving of the vitriol which is still being thrown his way on here.

[Marc Overmars]

Sometimes I have a pathological dislike for GW.

[Letters]

I despise Mourinho as a human being but that man is a tactical genius.
On yeah. Parking 10 men behind the ball is brilliant. BRILLIANT!
Particularly impressive how he's lost to Palace, Sunderland and Villa in the run in too.

[Power n Glory]

So you admit that's supposition rather than fact. Plus that's a very bland blanket statement, its a statement that doesn't offend anyone whose not looking to take offence.

Come on, dude. Where do you think all that talk about football economics and policy comes from? After 18 years of watching Wenger, do you think he’s playing his cards close to his chest or is he fully displaying his ideals about the way football should be? He’s far from robotic and bland in his press conferences. Post-Match reactions he’ll keep it low key, but we’ve had years to hear him talk about the football and he’s never struck me as a guy too shy to talk about what he really feels when it comes to football.

[Özim]

I don't 'fail to understand' anything. Wenger doesn't wash his dirty linen in public. Maybe he should be a bit more honest sometimes but if I screw up I don't particularly want my manager bawling me out in public. The idea that we can see some of our player's failings and Wenger can't is laughable. He works with them every day, we only see them a couple of hours a week. Whether he's able to do anything about it is a different matter but if we finish 4th and win the Cup that will have been a decent season, hardly deserving of the vitriol which is still being thrown his way on here.

Not really, that's what blind faith is about, he's more like their Dad than their manager and seems to mollycoddle them. He's been known for persisting with players for far too long when clearly they weren't good enough plenty of times.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Pathological dislike?

That's not the case, maybe some of us aren't too keen on people who feed the fan lies whilst failing to deliver on the pitch time and time again and continuing to be in total denial about it.

I don't pathologically dislike him, I do however think his management ability based on what I've seen in the last 10 years is vastly overrated and I certainly don't appreciate his words regarding 4th place and his constant praise for a team that fails time and time again.

In reality he's had a pretty easy ride and despite 9 years with little success there are very few people questioning him other than some fans, many are still of the opinion that noone else can do the job he does and that he's a great manager, I'm not so sure.

I didn't mention you by name, but you open yourself up to such an accusation with your reaction to Wenger's inoccuous post match comments after Hull. I agree with your criticisms of the man, but i think there is a point where frustration boils over into antipathy. I want him to go, this is on record....i don't clench my fist every time he makes a statement in a press conference.

[Özim]

On yeah. Parking 10 men behind the ball is brilliant. BRILLIANT!
Particularly impressive how he's lost to Palace, Sunderland and Villa in the run in too.

It's not that simple though is it, you seem to make things out to be so simplistic.

It not just sticking 10 men behind the ball, it's about organising the team using tactics, making players adopt certain rolesm efficiency and nullifying the other teams strengths, he tends to do this pretty well in big games and in my book that's good management and better than just sending your players on their way and telling them to just pass it all day and play your own game and you'll win.

If it was as easy as you think everyone would be doing it and getting the results and success he does.

[Letters]

Letter’s has a pathological dislike for Zimm and has gone about highlighting every negative post Zimm has written about Wenger.
There seriously aren't enough hours in the day to do that.

But yes, I do have a problem with the way he (and he's not the only one, but he's by far the worst) constantly jumps on any opportunity, or invents one if there isn't one, to criticise the club he claims to support.

It's like the Daily Mail - there is a sensible debate to be had about immigration but that doesn't mean that all immigrants are ***** who are after our women and jobs. Wenger has his failings, many people feel it's time for him to move on. That doesn't mean that he's completely clueless and everything he does or says is ridiculous.
We could finish this season in 4th (as usual!) and with the FA Cup (which would be new, and very welcome). I'd have taken that at the start of the season, I think many of us would. Is a sense of perspective too much to ask rather than all this hyperbole?

[Power n Glory]

I don't 'fail to understand' anything. Wenger doesn't wash his dirty linen in public. Maybe he should be a bit more honest sometimes but if I screw up I don't particularly want my manager bawling me out in public. The idea that we can see some of our player's failings and Wenger can't is laughable. He works with them every day, we only see them a couple of hours a week. Whether he's able to do anything about it is a different matter but if we finish 4th and win the Cup that will have been a decent season, hardly deserving of the vitriol which is still being thrown his way on here.

It's not vitriol for starters. Stop taking segments of my posts without quoting the rest. You miss the most important parts.

He doens't have to say anything in public. It's the action on the pitch that matters and when you consider the fact that he said in 2010 that we were investigating the injury crisis then and 4 years later we're hearing the same lines, you have to wonder what in the world is going on. If his actions and words never lined up, then fair enough.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Come on, dude. Where do you think all that talk about football economics and policy comes from? After 18 years of watching Wenger, do you think he’s playing his cards close to his chest or is he fully displaying his ideals about the way football should be? He’s far from robotic and bland in his press conferences. Post-Match reactions he’ll keep it low key, but we’ve had years to hear him talk about the football and he’s never struck me as a guy too shy to talk about what he really feels when it comes to football.

He says what his opinion is but i am specifically refering to his post-match press conferences. I can predict with a fair degree of certainty what he will say, and that the words "belief", "quality" and "spirit" will feature heavily. He gives you his opinion on the economic statement of football (most of which i agree with) in press conferences but for me they are completley removed from his performance as manager. As you know i am still not convinced we have had any more to spend that we have actually spent, so my criticism of him is based on how well he has invested and what he has done with the player resources he already has rather than his footballing philosophies.
But as i say a lot of his statements to the press especially those that come after matches tend to be very generic.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

.

It's like the Daily Mail - there is a sensible debate to be had about immigration but that doesn't mean that all immigrants are ***** who are after our women and jobs. Wenger has his failings, many people feel it's time for him to move on. That doesn't mean that he's completely clueless and everything he does or says is ridiculous.

I agree

[Özim]

I didn't mention you by name, but you open yourself up to such an accusation with your reaction to Wenger's inoccuous post match comments after Hull. I agree with your criticisms of the man, but i think there is a point where frustration boils over into antipathy. I want him to go, this is on record....i don't clench my fist every time he makes a statement in a press conference.

I'm consistent whether we win or lose, you may not have mentioned my name but it's clear from this thread who was being referred to. My comments after the Hull game are largely pointing out double standards and how he always twists things in favour of his players which IMO is one of the problems, although not specifically related to his players in this instance I admit, he opens himself up to criticism by saying one thing one day and something completely different the next.

As I've said his interviews and post match conferences do annoy me because they just reinforce the fact we're not going to see any change, I find this hard to ignore, in many ways it would be better if he said nothing at all, at least he wouldn't rub the perceived failure in our faces.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not really, that's what blind faith is about, he's more like their Dad than their manager and seems to mollycoddle them. He's been known for persisting with players for far too long when clearly they weren't good enough plenty of times.

But as i've said your criticisms in that regard seem to be about how you perceive what the manager is doing, rather than what you know he is doing.

[fakeyank]

On yeah. Parking 10 men behind the ball is brilliant. BRILLIANT!
Particularly impressive how he's lost to Palace, Sunderland and Villa in the run in too.

I'll just leave this here... Mourinho: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/jose-mourinho/erfolge/trainer_781.html

[Özim]

I'd have taken that at the start of the season, I think many of us would. Is a sense of perspective too much to ask rather than all this hyperbole?

Yeah yeah, we know you'd have taken anything at the start of the season as you keep telling us. Some of us are tired of settling for 2nd best all the time because the manager has decided to lower our expectations.

If someone had asked me 9 years ago what I expected now, I'd be expecting titles and a CL or two, thanks to Wenger there's little hope of that, 4th place wasn't even a consideration then.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm consistent whether we win or lose, you may not have mentioned my name but it's clear from this thread who was being referred to. My comments after the Hull game are largely pointing out double standards and how he always twists things in favour of his players which IMO is one of the problems, although not specifically related to his players in this instance I admit, he opens himself up to criticism by saying one thing one day and something completely different the next.

As I've said his interviews and post match conferences do annoy me because they just reinforce the fact we're not going to see any change, I find this hard to ignore, in many ways it would be better if he said nothing at all, at least he wouldn't rub the perceived failure in our faces.

There is not a manager in the game who isn't hypocritical, applies double standards and who isn't extremely biased. It's par for the course, and has no real reflection on his failings as a manger. As if somehow he'd do better if he acknowledged (publically) that a 50/50 decision went in his favour and he got lucky.

You can comment on what you like, but i think it does seem like your reaching somewhat.

[IBK]

I'm sorry but i don't want to hear about Mourinho, i think a club like Chelsea should be ashamed that their manager resorts to playing the way they did against a smaller club like Atletico Madrid with the infinite resources they have. It's bad enough that they have the kind of money they have to spend irradicating any sense of building a club up whilst remaining fiscally responsible, but you'd think at the very least there would be some element of entertainment in what they do.

Playing 11 men behind the ball doesn't make you a tactical genius, it makes you someone who is more afraid to lose than determined to win.

This isn't about defending Wenger, any half decent manager could tactically outsmart him....but don't try and make Mourinho out at this brilliant schemer able to adapt to any given situation...he's a man who acheives things with a generous cheque book and doesn't even have the guts to do so with flair and style...pernicious little coward.

Pretty much...:good:

[Özim]

But as i've said your criticisms in that regard seem to be about how you perceive what the manager is doing, rather than what you know he is doing.

Is it perceived though, don't what we see on the pitch and the team selection and what former players say support this?

[Letters]

I'm consistent whether we win or lose.
Aye. And I think that's part of my problem with you.
Consistency in opinions no matter what happens isn't something to pat yourself on the back about. It's why you constantly move the goalposts and twist facts rather than reconsidering your opinions in the light of new evidence.

[Power n Glory]

He says what his opinion is but i am specifically refering to his post-match press conferences. I can predict with a fair degree of certainty what he will say, and that the words "belief", "quality" and "spirit" will feature heavily. He gives you his opinion on the economic statement of football (most of which i agree with) in press conferences but for me they are completley removed from his performance as manager. As you know i am still not convinced we have had any more to spend that we have actually spent, so my criticism of him is based on how well he has invested and what he has done with the player resources he already has rather than his footballing philosophies.
But as i say a lot of his statements to the press especially those that come after matches tend to be very generic.

Why? When he says he believes the players have given everything in a match but we lack sharpness, why is that removed when he can admit later down the line that he’s overplayed players like Ramsey and Giroud which results in fatigue and injuries? Why wouldn’t you connect the dots?

[Letters]

I'll just leave this here... Mourinho: http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/jose-mourinho/erfolge/trainer_781.html
Not quite sure how that's a response to my post but OK...
No-one is denying he's not a great manager, but parking the bus ain't tactical genius.

[Letters]

Yeah yeah, we know you'd have taken anything at the start of the season as you keep telling us.
Taken anything? Where have I said that?
Take your time :good:

[Power n Glory]

Aye. And I think that's part of my problem with you.
Consistency in opinions no matter what happens isn't something to pat yourself on the back about. It's why you constantly move the goalposts and twist facts rather than reconsidering your opinions in the light of new evidence.

Nope, because we haven't won a trophy in 9 years. I'm not going to start saying Wenger is a tactical genius if we all of a sudden win the FA Cup. That would be senseless.

[Letters]

Nope, because we haven't won a trophy in 9 years. I'm not going to start saying Wenger is a tactical genius if we all of a sudden win the FA Cup. That would be senseless.
Yes. It would be senseless. No-one thinks Wenger is a tactical genius.

You've basically ignored or missed the entire point of my post.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is it perceived though, don't what we see on the pitch and the team selection and what former players say support this?

Actually former players have said their is a lack of match preparation they have said nothing about a man who regards the players as his sons and is never critical of them. I think it only suggests that the previous players didnt really need much coaching as were good enough without it, and he hasn't got the ability to get the full potential out of his current crop. It tells you nothing about the relationship he has with the players, you are just filling in the gaps to fit your own narrative.
Who else used to do that?....fellow called David Irvin

[Power n Glory]

Yes. It would be senseless. No-one thinks Wenger is a tactical genius.

You've basically ignored or missed the entire point of my post.

I get the point but you're not going to adjust an opinion just after one game especially when weighing it up against an 18 year history. I get you point, it's just not a good one.

[Power n Glory]

Actually former players have said their is a lack of match preparation they have said nothing about a man who regards the players as his sons and is never critical of them. I think it only suggests that the previous players didnt really need much coaching as were good enough without it, and he hasn't got the ability to get the full potential out of his current crop. It tells you nothing about the relationship he has with the players, you are just filling in the gaps to fit your own narrative.
Who else used to do that?....fellow called David Irvin

Come on, plenty of players have said Wenger is like a father figure to them and also gone on record to say he rarely losses his cool.

[IBK]

That is a phenomenally awesome post. I despise Mourinho as a human being but that man is a tactical genius. People blaming him for playing boring football havent seen Arsenal play the last few years. We probably play one of the most boring form of football I can remember watching. I dont mind being bored if it was part of a tactical plan to something effective. It unfortunately is not... we have no plan B. Sometimes I wonder if we even have a Plan A!


The one thing you can't argue with Mourinho is his success. Everything else is up for debate. He is the world master at stopping other teams playing. He has created a cult around himself and has a management style that is incredibly effective if players buy into this (unlike they did at RM). But he is an enemy of football in the sense that his motivation begins and ends at himself. He clearly feels no responsibility towards the game that has given him success - and for a manager of his pedigree to play the way he does, and behave the way he does is inexcusable. Comparing Wenger to Mourinho in terms of custodianship of the game is like comparing Nelson mandela with Robert Mugabe.

[Letters]

I get the point but you're not going to adjust an opinion just after one game especially when weighing it up against an 18 year history. I get you point, it's just not a good one.
If you think I meant we should all adjust our opinions from game to game then you didn't get my point at all.

My point was some people rigidly stick to their opinions (not just about Wenger, about players and all kinds of things) no matter what happens and increasingly twist or ignore facts rather than reconsidering their stance.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Come on, plenty of players have said Wenger is like a father figure to them and also gone on record to say he rarely losses his cool.

Plenty of ex United players cited Ferguson as a father figure, so even using that as the premise in your argument doesn't hold water. The DPRK is more transparent about what goes on behind the scenes than Arsenal football club so its hard to draw specific conclusions from general points. I believe that there is something wrong there but I don't feel qualified to extrapolate something from that to criticise every asset of the man.

If I was going to state what I believe is the case is that you have a manager who has for too long been given free reign to indulge his ideology. I think the only pressure he is ever put on by the board is to achieve 4th so that's why he sets so much stall by it because its the only thing he knows he has to achieve.

Does it excuse him of anything? No but can you honestly tell me that if you were paid as well as he was and the bar was set so low for you that you'd have problems sleeping at night.

[Power n Glory]

If you think I meant we should all adjust our opinions from game to game then you didn't get my point at all.

My point was some people rigidly stick to their opinions (not just about Wenger, about players and all kinds of things) no matter what happens and increasingly twist or ignore facts rather than reconsidering their stance.

I know and it's a poor point because it's been 9 years of the same. There isn't much to go on to suggest we're improving or to flip views that dramatically. We're not judging from game to game. Just looking at how the season unravels each year and seeing the same patterns. That's why views will stay consistent and not flip flop from 'Wenger in' to 'Wenger out'.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Mourinho is such a tactical genius he is about to go two seasons in a row without winning a trophy. And spent close to £200 million to achieve that.


Genius

[fakeyank]

Not quite sure how that's a response to my post but OK...
No-one is denying he's not a great manager, but parking the bus ain't tactical genius.

If parking the bus and winning was such an easy job, Allardyce would have 20 CL's titles in the bag. Parking the bus away from home, playing to your strengths and analyzing the opposition is different than parking the bus and hoping to win. By just 'parking the bus', he has outscored us this season already by 5 goals.
And if anyone recalls his time at RM, I do not recall him parking the bus. He plays his best team to the best tactic, according to the situation. He has a Plan A, B, C, D, E & F. We have motivation, spirit and determination to pass the ball sideways. I know which one I'd pick as a football fan.

[Power n Glory]

Plenty of ex United players cited Ferguson as a father figure, so even using that as the premise in your argument doesn't hold water. The DPRK is more transparent about what goes on behind the scenes than Arsenal football club so its hard to draw specific conclusions from general points. I believe that there is something wrong there but I don't feel qualified to extrapolate something from that to criticise every asset of the man.

If I was going to state what I believe is the case is that you have a manager who has for too long been given free reign to indulge his ideology. I think the only pressure he is ever put on by the board is to achieve 4th so that's why he sets so much stall by it because its the only thing he knows he has to achieve.

Does it excuse him of anything? No but can you honestly tell me that if you were paid as well as he was and the bar was set so low for you that you'd have problems sleeping at night.

I'm not arguing anything about the father figure part, just clearly pointing out the facts. Players have gone on record to say Wenger is a like a father to them. What you said in your previous post was wrong.

[Letters]

If parking the bus and winning was such an easy job, Allardyce would have 20 CL's titles in the bag.
Well, not really. Having a billionaire-fuelled squad helps.

He's obviously a good manager and and a good tactician. I do think some of the fawning over him is OTT, but that might just be my blind hatred of him talking :lol:

[GP]

Well, not really. Having a billionaire-fuelled squad helps.

He's obviously a good manager and and a good tactician. I do think some of the fawning over him is OTT, but that might just be my blind hatred of him talking :lol:

To be fair he is a massive dick splat.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why? When he says he believes the players have given everything in a match but we lack sharpness, why is that removed when he can admit later down the line that he’s overplayed players like Ramsey and Giroud which results in fatigue and injuries? Why wouldn’t you connect the dots?

Because statements about financial doping and the transfer window have nothing to do with him overplaying Ramsey and Giroud perhaps.

What i am saying to you is he may opine about the rights and wrongs of football, but his post match statements are very dull and don't give a lot away win or lose. Just like "I didn't see it" is his refusal to engage publically about one of his player's on the pitch indiscretions without actually having to say i am not going to talk about it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not arguing anything about the father figure part, just clearly pointing out the facts. Players have gone on record to say Wenger is a like a father to them. What you said in your previous post was wrong.

My previous post actually stated that the comments from ex professionals gives nothing away about how he regards his own players. That there is nothing said that he regards the players as his own sons was what i said.
And like i said man united players said they regarded Fergie as a father figure and we know of his tendency towards verbally and sometimes physically abusing them, so it means very little.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The one thing you can't argue with Mourinho is his success. .

No-one does, but i argue that nothing he has achieved actually justifies the English media's fawning schoolgirl regard to him. There are plenty of successful managers out there, take Carlo Ancelotti who has acheived much the same throughout his career as Mourinho has but i've never heard him in press conferences refer to himself as "The Special One" and feel the need to belittle the acheivements of those around him. The reason being is that Ancelotti isn't a narcissistic sociopath, and Mourinho is.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And to be fair i'm not just saying that to be insulting to him, he meets a lot of criteria of both the narcassistic and psycopathic personality traits...self aggrandisement, glibness, superficial charm, lack of empathy

[fakeyank]

Well, not really. Having a billionaire-fuelled squad helps.

He's obviously a good manager and and a good tactician. I do think some of the fawning over him is OTT, but that might just be my blind hatred of him talking :lol:

I would buy that statement if he hadnt won trophies with Porto and Inter. I do not believe he had a 'billionaire fueled net spend' when at those teams.

[Power n Glory]

Because statements about financial doping and the transfer window have nothing to do with him overplaying Ramsey and Giroud perhaps.

What i am saying to you is he may opine about the rights and wrongs of football, but his post match statements are very dull and don't give a lot away win or lose. Just like "I didn't see it" is his refusal to engage publically about one of his player's on the pitch indiscretions without actually having to say i am not going to talk about it.

How can his views on the transfer window be unrelated to overplaying Ramsey and Giroud? For example.

Wenger on the Sanogo signing.

“We have signed Sanogo. He has not made the headlines. Why? Because he is not £50m to £100million but I am quite confident he will make them soon on the pitch, and that for me is the most important.”

Wenger comparing his signing to Anelka.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/9178541/arsene-wenger-says-yaya-sanogo-can-be-new-nicolas-anelka


"When I started to play Anelka, everybody said: 'Why are you starting with Anelka, why not buy a striker?'" claims Wenger.

What do you make of these sort of statements? You can't say these sort of things have no reflection on his actions. These are the sort of statements I'm talking about. He's wrongly placed his faith in young injury prone player and as a result we have to overplay Giroud.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How can his views on the transfer window be unrelated to overplaying Ramsey and Giroud? For example.

Wenger on the Sanogo signing.


Wenger comparing his signing to Anelka.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/9178541/arsene-wenger-says-yaya-sanogo-can-be-new-nicolas-anelka



What do you make of these sort of statements? You can't say these sort of things have no reflection on his actions. These are the sort of statements I'm talking about. He's wrongly placed his faith in young injury prone player and as a result we have to overplay Giroud.

Overplaying Giroud is a result of not signing a striker after being rebuffed in his effort to sign Suarez (who he bid for after signing Sanogo) so actually has nothing at all to do with his economic philosophies but more to do with his and the club's general ham fisted incompitence when it comes to the transfer market.
And Giroud isn't shit because he's been overplayed....i don't think it's fair to give him that kind of out, he's shit because he's shit, slow and lazy.
Other players are injured because they have been overplayed and this is despite there being squad depth to rotate more often than he has...(no need to play Ozil against Coventry for instance)

[Power n Glory]

My previous post actually stated that the comments from ex professionals gives nothing away about how he regards his own players. That there is nothing said that he regards the players as his own sons was what i said.
And like i said man united players said they regarded Fergie as a father figure and we know of his tendency towards verbally and sometimes physically abusing them, so it means very little.

What do you mean? Henry, Song and Cesc have all described Wenger as a father figure and that's after they've left the club. Players have also gone on to say that he'd hardly ever lose his temper and it was usually the big characters in the dressing room that handled the conflicts. This isn't made up stuff.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I would buy that statement if he hadnt won trophies with Porto and Inter. I do not believe he had a 'billionaire fueled net spend' when at those teams.

He did at Inter, whilst it wasn't in the same amount of what he spent at Chelsea and Real Madrid it certainly wasn't a shoe string budget he had.

Muntari, Motta, Sneijder, Eto'o, Lucio, Milito...net spending of about 60-70 million, gross spending of about 130million.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What do you mean? Henry, Song and Cesc have all described Wenger as a father figure and that's after they've left the club. Players have also gone on to say that he'd hardly ever lose his temper and it was usually the big characters in the dressing room that handled the conflicts. This isn't made up stuff.

Again you fail to appreciate what i'm saying...calling a manager a father figure is the kind of dressed up placating statement players tend to make especially when they are leaving the club to another big club, it tells you literally nothing.
And what i am saying is, they may have regarded him as a father figure, it's a stretch to say that he regarded them as sons or failed to discipline them or criticise them because of this. I think anything critical of the players would go on behind closed doors....and to say that you know otherwise is speculative.

[Niall_Quinn]

The one thing you can't argue with Mourinho is his success. Everything else is up for debate. He is the world master at stopping other teams playing. He has created a cult around himself and has a management style that is incredibly effective if players buy into this (unlike they did at RM). But he is an enemy of football in the sense that his motivation begins and ends at himself. He clearly feels no responsibility towards the game that has given him success - and for a manager of his pedigree to play the way he does, and behave the way he does is inexcusable. Comparing Wenger to Mourinho in terms of custodianship of the game is like comparing Nelson mandela with Robert Mugabe.

Anyone who spends a billion quid and then opts to park the bus is a loser, no matter how many trophies he bores his way to. Football doesn't end with delivering trophies, at least it shouldn't. Our cup robbery the last time we won something, when we bored Utd off the pitch, will never find a place in the club legend. We only hear about it because it's the last thing we won. But Alan Sunderland scoring that third goal - that's football history. Or Ricky Villa, spud that he was. This is football. Can anyone think of a single instance involving the chavs and say, wow, great to be there, great to see that? Last thing that Mourinho did worth note was running down the touchline against Utd, how many years ago was that? The rest of it? Great results for sure - great moments, no. Great for the chav fans, most of whom are glory hunters anyway so they wouldn't care beyond the trophies and don't know anything about the game. For the wider football audience, who is Mourinho? My opinion is he's a specialist in failure when it comes to what really matters. Wenger will retire a legend. Maureen will be remembered as the crude journeyman who had a knack for destroying the game, financially and as an art.

He's also a cunt.

[Power n Glory]

Overplaying Giroud is a result of not signing a striker after being rebuffed in his effort to sign Suarez (who he bid for after signing Sanogo) so actually has nothing at all to do with his economic philosophies but more to do with his and the club's general ham fisted incompitence when it comes to the transfer market.
And Giroud isn't shit because he's been overplayed....i don't think it's fair to give him that kind of out, he's shit because he's shit, slow and lazy.
Other players are injured because they have been overplayed and this is despite there being squad depth to rotate more often than he has...(no need to play Ozil against Coventry for instance)

No, no let's clear up this mess. I'm saying Wenger's actions are reflected in such statements. Suarez is concerning the summer transfer window. We should have signed a striker in January but Wenger didn't and I believe part of the reason is down to his faith in Sanogo.

I also said nothing about Giroud as a player. That's a different argument.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We should have signed a striker in January but Wenger didn't and I believe part of the reason is down to his faith in Sanogo.

That's my point though, that's your belief...it's not something you have substantive to back that up with

My belief is that we don't have that much money to spend and that the money budgeted for a striker was spent on Ozil, that's why any signing made in the transfer window in January was going to be on loan?.

Is that the case?...i don't know....i am specculating...but that's exactly what your doing. The point is i criticise the man based on facts, not on what surmising what the facts might be. Therefore I criticise his lack of progress over the last nine years, i don't feel the need to critcise everything that comes out of his mouth.

As i've said, it's only my opinion but i feel that he is stagnant, few managers short of Ferguson could be at a club as long as AW and not become stagnant...he's given us all he's got and it's not enough anymore. He's too old to change, his mistakes are becoming more obvious and he doesn't even seem to enjoy what he does anymore.
I feel people like you are more adverse to him on a personal level and over analyze everything he says so you can come back and use it as a stick to beat him with. Again i could be wrong, but that's my perception...but you seem to think your "perceptions" of events valid, so why shouldn't mine be?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's also a cunt.

Find me someone who has psychopathic personality traits who isn't

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000918955/The_baby_Hitler_by_klarissimus_answer_1_xlarge.jpe g

And just to lighten the mood slighty

[Power n Glory]

Again you fail to appreciate what i'm saying...calling a manager a father figure is the kind of dressed up placating statement players tend to make especially when they are leaving the club to another big club, it tells you literally nothing.
And what i am saying is, they may have regarded him as a father figure, it's a stretch to say that he regarded them as sons or failed to discipline them or criticise them because of this. I think anything critical of the players would go on behind closed doors....and to say that you know otherwise is speculative.

I don't agree with that, especially the part in bold. We've been managed by Wenger for 18 years and there is enough information out there to give you an idea of his character. I know what you're getting at and most of what we're working on is speculation to what's happening behind closed doors. We don't want to over analyse everything, but after 18 years, are you telling me Wenger is sort of mystic figure who we know very little about? Would you presume him to be a fiery, confrontational type of manager that barks orders at his players? If not, why not?

[Power n Glory]

That's my point though, that's your belief...it's not something you have substantive to back that up with

My belief is that we don't have that much money to spend and that the money budgeted for a striker was spent on Ozil, that's why any signing made in the transfer window in January was going to be on loan?.

Is that the case?...i don't know....i am specculating...but that's exactly what your doing. The point is i criticise the man based on facts, not on what surmising what the facts might be. Therefore I criticise his lack of progress over the last nine years, i don't feel the need to critcise everything that comes out of his mouth.

As i've said, it's only my opinion but i feel that he is stagnant, few managers short of Ferguson could be at a club as long as AW and not become stagnant...he's given us all he's got and it's not enough anymore. He's too old to change, his mistakes are becoming more obvious and he doesn't even seem to enjoy what he does anymore.
I feel people like you are more adverse to him on a personal level and over analyze everything he says so you can come back and use it as a stick to beat him with. Again i could be wrong, but that's my perception...but you seem to think your "perceptions" of events valid, so why shouldn't mine be?

How has anything said about Wenger been personal? I'm having a debate with you about what I see going on at the club and how I perceive our state of affairs. The problem a lot of you guys have, is when long winded debates like these occur, you misconceive a thorough argument with being personal. I'm not sticking the knife in on Wenger, this is one conversation, about one particular topic that's probably gone on for too long and now you think it's personal. :lol: It's far from it. I'm simply stating that you can see Wenger's philosophy and character throughout the club and there on the pitch.

Flip this conversation on to a more positive note regarding what he's said about how he views football and the way we play, I doubt there would be such resistance to such a very simple point. For example, if we were to look at what Wenger has to say about the beauty in football, attacking football, total football, technical players...etc...I doubt those would be batted away as if he's just talking and none of it's reflected on the pitch or related.

[fakeyank]

He did at Inter, whilst it wasn't in the same amount of what he spent at Chelsea and Real Madrid it certainly wasn't a shoe string budget he had.

Muntari, Motta, Sneijder, Eto'o, Lucio, Milito...net spending of about 60-70 million, gross spending of about 130million.

60-70 million over 3 years is very good amount. A club of our size or Inter's size should not be looking at that and calling that "billionaire spend". I agree that he spent a lot at Real and Chelsea, and why wouldnt he, if they have the capability? He spent according to the clubs resources... and guess what? He won the CL with the two clubs he spent the least with.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

60-70 million over 3 years is very good amount. A club of our size or Inter's size should not be looking at that and calling that "billionaire spend". I agree that he spent a lot at Real and Chelsea, and why wouldnt he, if they have the capability? He spent according to the clubs resources... and guess what? He won the CL with the two clubs he spent the least with.

That plus the money spent by his predecessor that allowed Inter to take full advantage of the fall out of the calciopoli scandal.

I am not trying to ridicule his achievements, in all honesty Inter and Porto are examples of where he has performed better as a coach without silly money to spend. I just don't and won't ever buy the suggestion that he's the best manager in the world. He's a very good manager whose achievements stood out at a time when there weren't so many managers at his level.
Currently there are great coaches of the elk of Diego Simeone, Jurgen Klopp, Pep Guardiola, Carlo Ancelotti who for me are in and around the same level as him but no where near the level of arrogant self-regard. For me the great managers are the ones who build a dynasty at the one club so I'm sorry to say for me Mourinho will never be the same standard of old whiskey cheeks. I despised Whiskey cheeks but there was no doubt in my mind possibly the greatest manager of all time and no one will emulate his success at Old Trafford.

[Power n Glory]

Fergie is overrated. Man Utd are one of the richest clubs in England and if not for Chelsea and City, they’d still be the most financially minted and powerful clubs in England. If we’re going to bring finances into the Jose debate, it’s only fair to acknowledge the resources Fergie had access to during his reign with Manure. Man Utd’d dominance can be compared to Bayern’s dominance. I expect a good manager to win trophies if given enough time and resources and Fergie had his pick of the best talent in England and could bid for players in Europe most clubs couldn’t even dream of. British transfer record after record. Jose club hops but I think that’s the nature of football these days. You won’t find many managers that are given decades at one club. Ancelotti is a good manager but he’s done his fair share of club hoping lately.

[Kano]

Fergie is overrated. Man Utd are one of the richest clubs in England and if not for Chelsea and City, they’d still be the most financially minted and powerful clubs in England. If we’re going to bring finances into the Jose debate, it’s only fair to acknowledge the resources Fergie had access to during his reign with Manure. Man Utd’d dominance can be compared to Bayern’s dominance. I expect a good manager to win trophies if given enough time and resources and Fergie had his pick of the best talent in England and could bid for players in Europe most clubs couldn’t even dream of. British transfer record after record. Jose club hops but I think that’s the nature of football these days. You won’t find many managers that are given decades at one club. Ancelotti is a good manager but he’s done his fair share of club hoping lately.

yet no manager was able to win the title for utd for how many years? any other club can generally be rated as absolute cunts but credit where credit is due. ferguson was an outstanding manager. i'm hard pressed to think of many others who could get that current squad to win the league. they have become one of the most dominant forces in world football because of fergie. if he is overrated, who would you say is better and worth the praise lavished upon them?

[Power n Glory]

Were they always the richest club? Wasn’t it during the Premiership years and when floated on the Stock Exchange that the gap between them and other clubs increased and they dominated the early 90s? We’re not going to play a game of ‘name that manager’ but in my opinion, if you’re going to talk about Jose and his spending, you can’t rule that out for Fergie.

[Kano]

Were they always the richest club? Wasn’t it during the Premiership years and when floated on the Stock Exchange that the gap between them and other clubs increased and they dominated the early 90s? We’re not going to play a game of ‘name that manager’ but in my opinion, if you’re going to talk about Jose and his spending, you can’t rule that out for Fergie.

i think what gets peoples back up is not only the spending but the crude style of football Jose plays. he has had the money at his disposal to purchase the creme of attacking players but his teams continually play the dullest football imaginable. At least City are giving it a go with being entertaining. Stacked up against the constant big mouth moans off the pitch whilst his teams drill their way to success, season after season, Jose brings the criticism upon himself. He has no excuse to spend so much yet produces such droll football. Fergie made the most of his money, of course his team were minted but you can at least offer a begrudging note of admiration for someone who has something to show for all the money spent.

[Letters]

I don't think any manager who had that level of success for that long - especially in an era in which the billionaires have built ridiculous squads - can be said to be over-rated. And yes, he had a lot of money to spend but Utd won the title last year with a squad nowhere near as good as Chelsea or City, you have to give Fergie a lot of credit for that especially as this year the same set of players will probably finish outside the top 6.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

United's on the field success under Ferguson allowed them to become a bigger and bigger global brand and arguably he was spending the money that he had been influential in generating. Don't get me wrong, United were always a big rich club but the extent of what they've been able to spend is down to what sponsorship deals etc they have been able to harvest from on the pitch success, plus the money they have made from constant champions league qualification.
And whatever we think of Wenger, it's fair to say that when he goes he leaves the club in a monumentally better state than it was in when he joined us. And to dismiss and downplay his role in that would be grossly unfair.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Fergie is overrated. Man Utd are one of the richest clubs in England and if not for Chelsea and City, they’d still be the most financially minted and powerful clubs in England. If we’re going to bring finances into the Jose debate, it’s only fair to acknowledge the resources Fergie had access to during his reign with Manure. Man Utd’d dominance can be compared to Bayern’s dominance. I expect a good manager to win trophies if given enough time and resources and Fergie had his pick of the best talent in England and could bid for players in Europe most clubs couldn’t even dream of. British transfer record after record. Jose club hops but I think that’s the nature of football these days. You won’t find many managers that are given decades at one club. Ancelotti is a good manager but he’s done his fair share of club hoping lately.

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