Can we win the Premier League again under Wenger ?

[dostoy]

I am not just talking this season I am talking any season.

The man just hates to spend money and cannot see what most people can plainly see.

The thing that concerns me the most and I hate to say it but what if Coquelin gets a 3 month injury in September or whenever, Flamini or Arteta are not good enough to fill in for that length of time, we need somebody much better.

I think we might need a right winger as well because that is not Ramseys position and the Ox and Theo are injury prone.

There is also Mertersacker in defence which is worrying.

I am sure there are other things as well, like playing under real pressure and easing off when we are two nil up which we seem to do.

I hate to say this but at the moment we have no chance whatsoever of winning the Premier League or the Champions League anytime soon.

I wonder sometimes if Wenger really wants to win but then I'm sure I am wrong to think that.

It is incredibly frustrating.

[Gooner23]

I disagree that the squad isn't good enough. 1 or 2 more additons would be nice but not essential. Bit harsh to say he hates to spend money as well given how much we've spunked in last couple of years.

However to answer your question I don't think we'll win it again under Wenger as for me his tactics / approach will let us down when it comes to crunch time. Hoping to put up more of a fight this season though.

[Injury Time]

No. We will no doubt "somehow" fail to prepare for those crunch games, and win some "big" matches when they are meaningless. Hoping to be proved wrong.

[Static]

We can but it seems like Wenger is handicapping us.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't think Wenger is good enough to extract that extra 10% needed to put us on the right side of those fine margins. Our seasons are always night and day in how we perform, there's never a consistent spread and that's why we never come close.

Only way I see us possibly winning the league is if we make more signings cut from the same cloth as Alexis, players who can slot in without fuss and deliver whatever the situation. Only bona fide worldies will improve us now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Flamini or Arteta are not good enough to fill in for that length of time

I think we might need a right winger as well.

I wouldn't worry about that, Flamini is likely to go this week and Arteta is probably not going to stay fit enough to play anyway so you want to worry more about us having no cover.


Nick Griffin? He's quite right wing

[Gooner23]

I would say we have 5 worldies now (Cech, Kos, Cazorla, Ozil and Sanchez), with quite a few in that bracket below. We should on paper be good enough.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In all seriousness, I think we can now forget about him going in 2017.....Wenger himself has said he has no plans to retire and Gazidis says he doesn't see any end in sight to his managerial reign.
If we assume that he is with us as long as Ferguson was at United, than we could potentially looking at another ten years with him as boss.

[Letters]

The man just hates to spend money.

Our net spend over the last 2 years, since the new financial deals have been in place, is about £110m.
Only Utd have spent significantly more - City have spent about £10m more.

(http://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2014/9/11/6101855/premier-league-transfer-spend-over-3-5-and-7-years)

Over a longer period we spent less but with the stadium debts and our poor sponsorship deals, we were somewhat constrained in the transfer market.

As for the question, I'm not sure. For two thirds of last season we matched Chelsea stride for stride, we stood up in some of the big games so there's the potential there. What we've never managed to do under Wenger, since the Invincible days, is to keep going for a whole season. I think we've finally got the squad to do that, and the mentality to too. My concern is a slight weakness up front, we haven't got an Aguero or a Suarez. It is harder to win the league than it was when Wenger joined, since we last won it the only people who have are the billionaire cheats and ManYoo under Fergie (I have no idea how he did that in his last season, was was definitely the GOAT, IMO).
We won't win the league this season right now, with a real top striker we might although they don't grow on trees.

[Syn]

We've got a chance. Mostly depends on players staying injury free and Ozil establishing himself as the best player in the league.

[dostoy]

We've got a chance. Mostly depends on players staying injury free and Ozil establishing himself as the best player in the league.

Injury free Syn really !!!

We always have loads of injuries, I hope this changes but can't see it happening.

[Bumble]

If we can beat Chelsea in a game then we can win the league. I do think we need to beat Chelsea to really believe we can win the league.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Injury free Syn really !!!

We always have loads of injuries, I hope this changes but can't see it happening.

Chelsea won the league at a canter last year with one of the smallest squads in the league.
They can do that because they doubled down on their fitness/medical staff and facilities. Turns out investing in your infrastructure is a smart move.

Injuries are inevitable, but we could do more to mitigate the long lay-offs and endless complications.
Fortunately it looks like this is also the sort of investment we are starting to make.

The scouting should be next on the overhaul list by the sounds of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think Wenger is good enough to extract that extra 10% needed to put us on the right side of those fine margins. Our seasons are always night and day in how we perform, there's never a consistent spread and that's why we never come close.

Only way I see us possibly winning the league is if we make more signings cut from the same cloth as Alexis, players who can slot in without fuss and deliver whatever the situation. Only bona fide worldies will improve us now.

Highlighted bit is a nice summary.


Only way I see us possibly winning the league is if we make more signings cut from the same cloth as Alexis

Vidal. By not at least attempting to sign him Wenger has demonstrated that nothing at all has changed - he still intends to do things 100% his way even though his way has been comprehensively shown to be ineffective in this league and in the CL.

We COULD win a title under Wenger. If many, many things went our way and went against our opponents we could do a Liverpool and maybe push that extra yard to the finish line. Then again, at the crunch those fine margins would show up again. We'd have to fluke it, we wouldn't win with the power and authority of Wenger's early squads. Even if we did fluke it, it would be a one-off, we'd be 4th again the following season.

Wenger is an historic figure at Arsenal and he'll rightly go down as a legend for many positive reasons. But in the last decade he's fallen way off the pace. Certainly he's still PL level but he can't raise his game to the very top when he needs to. We know it because we have seen it so many time, when the chips are down Wenger busts. We know this and the fact he's not pushing on this year to add the world class player or players that could compensate shows a disconnect in his own mind between his capabilities and the realities.

He places way too much faith in players that don't reward that faith. In so many ways, Wenger's way is how football should be. But it isn't. It's the Arab way, the Russian Mafia way, the Blatter way. That's football. Not good for Wenger and ultimately not good for the global fan base but the modern game is just a reflection on the world in general. Look at the politicians. Look at the banks and big corporations. Look at all the fat bastards in the city while a third of the world goes hungry. Football is only as unpleasant and ugly as the rest of human endeavour. Wenger is an idealist. Plainly he hates the modern game. It's hard to condemn him for that but maybe he should get out of it rather than persist with his water pistol philosophy in the face of Uzi toting wankers.

On the other hand, if everyone with a decent bone in their body fucks off what do we have left? In a lot of ways we should have pride in the way Wenger conducts his business. He's doing things for the right reasons - protecting young players, trying to build long term careers, focusing on the purer aspects of the game. None of that wins you the title these days. Fucking shame but that's how it is.

[Niall_Quinn]

We've got a chance. Mostly depends on players staying injury free and Ozil establishing himself as the best player in the league.

He's already the best player in the league. Even the media has stopped shooting at his house and you know you have to be good to turn those fuckers around after you have signed for the wrong club. I suppose the Di Maria thing helped a bit. £20mill less than that useless fuck :haha:

Sometimes joining the right club isn't what it's cracked out to be.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Vidal.

This. Like a midfield Alexis Sanchez. Would probably punch Charlie Adam's ugly teeth back down his ugly throat.

[Power n Glory]

Our net spend over the last 2 years, since the new financial deals have been in place, is about £110m.
Only Utd have spent significantly more - City have spent about £10m more.

(http://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2014/9/11/6101855/premier-league-transfer-spend-over-3-5-and-7-years)

Over a longer period we spent less but with the stadium debts and our poor sponsorship deals, we were somewhat constrained in the transfer market.

As for the question, I'm not sure. For two thirds of last season we matched Chelsea stride for stride, we stood up in some of the big games so there's the potential there. What we've never managed to do under Wenger, since the Invincible days, is to keep going for a whole season. I think we've finally got the squad to do that, and the mentality to too. My concern is a slight weakness up front, we haven't got an Aguero or a Suarez. It is harder to win the league than it was when Wenger joined, since we last won it the only people who have are the billionaire cheats and ManYoo under Fergie (I have no idea how he did that in his last season, was was definitely the GOAT, IMO).
We won't win the league this season right now, with a real top striker we might although they don't grow on trees.

You don't think selling them the leagues best striker, RVP, had anything to do with it? :lol: We all said we've handed Man Utd the title as soon as it was suggested we were selling our captain to them.

Fergie done well but let's not talk as if he pulled off a small miracle. Man Utd ran away with the league with little fight from the competition because City and Chelsea were in poor states despite the spending. It doesn't paint the full picture. Chelsea started the league with Di Matteo as manager and then switched to Rafa which almost caused an outright rebellion at Stamford Bridge. City were also going through their problems with Mancini on the war path with his players and growing complacency after winning the title.

It's something I've tried to explain before, but sometimes in the league there are moments in the league you can capitalise on. Teams are going through their own internal battles and transitions and financial states just aren't that important. We had our chance in 2013/2014 when Utd appointed Moyes, Mourinho was just taking over Chelsea and Pellegrini City. If we'd have bought wisely we'd have won it and it's why Liverpool came so close to winning the league when nobody would have had them pegged as contenders. Building that momentum and stability is key.

I have no idea what we'll do this season but our biggest rivals look stable and are building on that. We really need to do more if we want to win the league this year. It's going to be a tough one.

[Power n Glory]

We COULD win a title under Wenger. If many, many things went our way and went against our opponents we could do a Liverpool and maybe push that extra yard to the finish line. Then again, at the crunch those fine margins would show up again. We'd have to fluke it, we wouldn't win with the power and authority of Wenger's early squads. Even if we did fluke it, it would be a one-off, we'd be 4th again the following season.

:gp:

Adds to how I feel. We'd need all the cards to fall into play for us to win the league under the current conditions. Our rivals to be at their weakest and to have some serious luck with injuries, ref decisions, the schedule and competition draws.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yep I think that's not an unreasonable view at all.

[Syn]

This. Like a midfield Alexis Sanchez. Would probably punch Charlie Adam's ugly teeth back down his ugly throat.

Sometimes I think Ramsey would get more credit if he was uglier and had a shit haircut. He's our Vidal, probably better in all honesty. And you can't have two of them or else the midfield loses all shape. Ramsey Ozil and Coquelin stay injury free, our midfield isn't the reason we don't win a title. Giroud's shit finishing is, if we're trying to pinpoint the problem. He needs Sanchez to become Suarez so his hard, creative work will be noticed and his shit finishing won't.

[Syn]

Also gut feeling - Wilshere's going to make a lot of people look foolish. He's an immature twat but he takes his football seriously and desperately wants to make it. Talent has never been in question.

[Power n Glory]

Sometimes I think Ramsey would get more credit if he was uglier and had a shit haircut. He's our Vidal, probably better in all honesty. And you can't have two of them or else the midfield loses all shape. Ramsey Ozil and Coquelin stay injury free, our midfield isn't the reason we don't win a title. Giroud's shit finishing is, if we're trying to pinpoint the problem. He needs Sanchez to become Suarez so his hard, creative work will be noticed and his shit finishing won't.

I'd agree if you were talking about 2013/14 Ramsey. But last season it was Cazorla that kept us ticking whilst Ramsey was shaky and then picked up an injury and he hasn't been that same player.

But you're right about the striker position. It's vital we buy someone better.

[Letters]

You don't think selling them the leagues best striker, RVP, had anything to do with it?
Well it helped, obviously. But still, with that squad - compared with City's and Chelsea's - there was no way they should have won the league.
RVP was there the following season too when they finished 7th under a different manager.

Liverpool came close for 2 reasons, they had no European football and they had Suarez on insane form.

We won't win the league this year without a couple more signings, even with them it will be tough because there are 3 other sides who will compete strongly.

[Power n Glory]

Well it helped, obviously. But still, with that squad - compared with City's and Chelsea's - there was no way they should have won the league.
RVP was there the following season too when they finished 7th under a different manager.

Liverpool came close for 2 reasons, they had no European football and they had Suarez on insane form.

We won't win the league this year without a couple more signings, even with them it will be tough because there are 3 other sides who will compete strongly.

Stop taking my quotes out of context and making out as if I said RVP was the only factor for them winning the league. If you would have read it you'd know why that last point about RVP under Moyes is void.

[Syn]

I'd agree if you were talking about 2013/14 Ramsey. But last season it was Cazorla that kept us ticking whilst Ramsey was shaky and then picked up an injury and he hasn't been that same player.

But you're right about the striker position. It's vital we buy someone better.

It's the same Ramsey, he said it takes him a while to get going when his fitness levels aren't up to his usual insane standards and he said aspects like his decision making suffer as a result. When he's physical best he can run games against any opposition. I really don't think it's deluded to put faith in players like him. Wenger likes the look of this team and with good reason. They just have to be fit enough to build on the momentum. Wilshere returned a week earlier than required to work on his fitness, Wenger spends £10m on a GK that's only realistically going to give him a couple of good years. This team desperately wants to win right now.

[Syn]

Tbh RVP was pretty much the only reason they won that title. for the very short 30 months when he was a good footballer, for my money he was as good as Henry. Henry was better for performing over a longer period, but for that period Van Persie was ridiculous. Won't see anything like it for some time.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Sometimes I think Ramsey would get more credit if he was uglier and had a shit haircut. He's our Vidal, probably better in all honesty. And you can't have two of them or else the midfield loses all shape. Ramsey Ozil and Coquelin stay injury free, our midfield isn't the reason we don't win a title. Giroud's shit finishing is, if we're trying to pinpoint the problem. He needs Sanchez to become Suarez so his hard, creative work will be noticed and his shit finishing won't.

In Welsh Jesus mode Ramsey is easily one of the best 3 players in the league.
If he returned to that kind of form I'd pick him over Vidal all day, every day.

But 'credit' goes more than one way. Footballers are human too, if a fan's psychology is affected by ugliness and shit haircuts, so must that of your opponent.

Ramsey may be our closest analogue but they aren't exactly the same. Sometimes the defining difference between players isn't physical or technical, sometimes it's attitudinal. It's the idea of having 2 Alexis on the pitch at the same time which is so appealing.

Anyway. Fuck it. Vidal isn't coming and another forward would be my first choice as well.

[Globalgunner]

Was recently watching a rerun of the 2007/8 season highlights and it shone through again what a fantastically talented player RVP was, some of his goals in that season with Cesc/Song supplying and even the Russian Owl banging them in were sublime. That really was a talented squad minus a few real mundane crap like Denilson and the Spanish git Almunia in goal. The way RVP could recieve the ball twist and turn defenders inside out with his foot movements and bang them in with either boot was really special. We really missed a trick with not supplementing him with a quality midfield and defence. That team was really good. Of course it was still Wenger in charge so they still wouldnt have won the league anyway. RVP could have been the true successor to Bergkamp, now he`s just a Turkey in Turkey.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Russian Owl?

[Letters]

Tbh RVP was pretty much the only reason they won that title. for the very short 30 months when he was a good footballer, for my money he was as good as Henry. Henry was better for performing over a longer period, but for that period Van Persie was ridiculous. Won't see anything like it for some time.

I don't think the Fergie Factor should be ignored though, RvP was still there the following season...but so was Moyes and they didn't just fail to win the title, they were pretty much mid-table.

[Globalgunner]

In Welsh Jesus mode Ramsey is easily one of the best 3 players in the league.
If he returned to that kind of form I'd pick him over Vidal all day, every day.

But 'credit' goes more than one way. Footballers are human too, if a fan's psychology is affected by ugliness and shit haircuts, so must that of your opponent.

Ramsey may be our closest analogue but they aren't exactly the same. Sometimes the defining difference between players isn't physical or technical, sometimes it's attitudinal. It's the idea of having 2 Alexis on the pitch at the same time which is so appealing.

Anyway. Fuck it. Vidal isn't coming and another forward would be my first choice as well.

Ramsey is`nt a DM. He cant do the job week in week out, neither can Wilshere, they will break literally into pieces. Wilshere especially fancies himself as some sort of hard bloke but every time he goes into a tackle you wince. A DM is a special kind of athlete. You need to find one, maybe Bielik is the one Wenger has identified. For me, Ramsey and Wilshere should hardly ever play together. Share the 60 games a season between them. It is pretty obvious to me.

[Globalgunner]

Russian Owl?

Arshavin........how soon we forget

[Power n Glory]

It's the same Ramsey, he said it takes him a while to get going when his fitness levels aren't up to his usual insane standards and he said aspects like his decision making suffer as a result. When he's physical best he can run games against any opposition. I really don't think it's deluded to put faith in players like him. Wenger likes the look of this team and with good reason. They just have to be fit enough to build on the momentum. Wilshere returned a week earlier than required to work on his fitness, Wenger spends £10m on a GK that's only realistically going to give him a couple of good years. This team desperately wants to win right now.

With Ramsey I don’t know because he had a funny start to the season whilst also having the benefit of a full preseason. He just wasn’t the same animal and it doesn’t help when he plays with Wilshere. Those two really need to work out how to play together. At the moment, I feel like we shouldn’t be hanging around to see if a player performs if an exceptional talent is on the market.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think the Fergie Factor should be ignored though, RvP was still there the following season...but so was Moyes and they didn't just fail to win the title, they were pretty much mid-table.

But you’re willing to ignore the Rafa Benitez and Di Matteo factor at Chelsea? Or the Roberto Mancini factor at City? If a manager can have a positive effect then they can also have a negative.

Also, RVP had injury problems under Moyes and wasn’t performing at the same level. The only comparison for that form that RVP displayed at Man Utd was his last season for Arsenal. He played the same amount of games but scored more goals when playing for us I think. But we only managed to come 3rd.

[Fist of Lehmann]

Ramsey is`nt a DM.

Neither is Vidal.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Arshavin........how soon we forget

No I'm just pointing out that Arshavin didn't join us until 2009 so would have been doing well to be banging in the goals for us in the 07-08 season

[Letters]

Maybe we should be asking who *could* win us the league? Mourinho would IMO. He'd win the league with any of the top 4.
I wouldn't swap Wenger for any other PL manager (and I wouldn't swap him for Mourinho either, despite the above - I don't want that **** anywhere near the club, I want us to win but not like that).

[Fist of Lehmann]

No I'm just pointing out that Arshavin didn't join us until 2009 so would have been doing well to be banging in the goals for us in the 07-08 season

Ah........how soon we misremember

[Globalgunner]

08/09 then Sourpuss. Getting on a bit, so its all history now.

[Globalgunner]

Neither is Vidal.

I wasnt neccesarily rooting for Vidal. Besides he`s at another team now so its a bit moot, just saying that neither Ramsey or Wilshere can play instead of Coq, unless its the last 10 min with the game wrapped up

[Globalgunner]

Maybe we should be asking who *could* win us the league? Mourinho would IMO. He'd win the league with any of the top 4.
I wouldn't swap Wenger for any other PL manager (and I wouldn't swap him for Mourinho either, despite the above - I don't want that **** anywhere near the club, I want us to win but not like that).

You wouldnt swap Wenger for Jesus Christ either, would you?

[GP]

Also gut feeling - Wilshere's going to make a lot of people look foolish. He's an immature twat but he takes his football seriously and desperately wants to make it. Talent has never been in question.

HashtagGoodPost

Special player.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe we should be asking who *could* win us the league? Mourinho would IMO. He'd win the league with any of the top 4.
I wouldn't swap Wenger for any other PL manager (and I wouldn't swap him for Mourinho either, despite the above - I don't want that **** anywhere near the club, I want us to win but not like that).

Would he?

I think there are too many creative players in the squad, not the type of players he could utilise the strangle the life out of games with turgid football, and he would most likely come up with something like the "little horse" analogy or something equally disingenuous when he finishes third with us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You wouldnt swap Wenger for Jesus Christ either, would you?

A fictional character what good would that be?

[Fist of Lehmann]

I wasnt neccesarily rooting for Vidal. Besides he`s at another team now so its a bit moot, just saying that neither Ramsey or Wilshere can play instead of Coq, unless its the last 10 min with the game wrapped up

You should brace yourself then because I feel like the reason we aren't pursuing a DM is because AW wants to craft a system that has Ramshere axis in the centre of the park, that will share time with the Coqzorla partnership.

If that's true they have a lot of hard work on the training ground ahead of them.

[Letters]

Would he?

I think there are too many creative players in the squad, not the type of players he could utilise the strangle the life out of games with turgid football, and he would most likely come up with something like the "little horse" analogy or something equally disingenuous when he finishes third with us.

I reckon he would, but I wouldn't want to watch him try.

I like what Koeman is doing at Southampton actually, if we had to swap with anyone in the PL I wouldn't mind him.

[fakeyank]

To the OP, answer is No.

[selassie]

No

[Maestro]

Well it helped, obviously. But still, with that squad - compared with City's and Chelsea's - there was no way they should have won the league.
RVP was there the following season too when they finished 7th under a different manager.

Liverpool came close for 2 reasons, they had no European football and they had Suarez on insane form.

We won't win the league this year without a couple more signings, even with them it will be tough because there are 3 other sides who will compete strongly.

Did you even read P n G's full post before responding, jeez. At least read his post fully before responding.

[Letters]

Did you even read P n G's full post.
Yes.

[GP]

Why?

[Power n Glory]

Yes.

:doh:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

My own view is that even in the slim chance that Wenger wins is the title in the next couple of seasons, I'd prefer it if he didn't sign a new contract. I do agree that we have experienced missed opportunities because of his myopic and stubborn defence of players that aren't good enough, yes for example money was tight five-ten years ago but we had goalkeepers available to us that wouldn't have broken the bank that were far superior to Manuel Almunia.
On the other hand I find it daft especially during bad periods when posters here seem to form the idea that literally any manager would be better than Wenger, when clearly the whole point of Wenger stepping down would be for us to push on...and I'm sorry but there aren't multitudes of managers who will do that. There are managers out there who would improve us for sure, but the list isn't as long as people think it is. And as much as l'ouisseau pisses us off he is still superior to the majority of his premier league counterparts.

[Letters]

Why?

:lol:

:gp:

[AFC Leveller]

To win the league these days you need 3 key elements, a goal getter, a solid defensive unit and/or a manager that gets those extra 10 points. We dont have any of those and although we will look good some days, come the end of the season we will come up short.

[Özim]

We won't be winning the title as we have a manager who just won't adequately strengthen the squad and is tactically very naive.

It's frustrating but it's a fact, any other top manager would have identified our weaknesses and tried to do something about them, not Wenger he just hopes lady luck will somehow turn players into world beaters when he needs them to.

[Niall_Quinn]

A fictional character what good would that be?

He could have got Diaby fit.

[Letters]

My own view is that even in the slim chance that Wenger wins is the title in the next couple of seasons, I'd prefer it if he didn't sign a new contract. I do agree that we have experienced missed opportunities because of his myopic and stubborn defence of players that aren't good enough, yes for example money was tight five-ten years ago but we had goalkeepers available to us that wouldn't have broken the bank that were far superior to Manuel Almunia.
On the other hand I find it daft especially during bad periods when posters here seem to form the idea that literally any manager would be better than Wenger, when clearly the whole point of Wenger stepping down would be for us to push on...and I'm sorry but there aren't multitudes of managers who will do that. There are managers out there who would improve us for sure, but the list isn't as long as people think it is. And as much as l'ouisseau pisses us off he is still superior to the majority of his premier league counterparts.
That :good:

The attitude that irritates me on here is how extreme people's views about Wenger are.
I don't think he's a wrinkly old French **** and therefore, apparently, I worship the ground he walks on. It's a boring and lazy strawman argument.

Wenger has his flaws, but he's doing a lot more right than wrong. The next bloke will have flaws too and lots of managers have far bigger flaws than Wenger.
There are some people who could probably push us on, but there aren't many.

[Power n Glory]

There aren't many posters on here and not many are that extreme. Just a few posters take it that far. But maybe you've misread a few posts. ;)

[Dein-machine]

That :good:

The attitude that irritates me on here is how extreme people's views about Wenger are.
I don't think he's a wrinkly old French **** and therefore, apparently, I worship the ground he walks on. It's a boring and lazy strawman argument.

Wenger has his flaws, but he's doing a lot more right than wrong. The next bloke will have flaws too and lots of managers have far bigger flaws than Wenger.
There are some people who could probably push us on, but there aren't many.

You do worship him - you are now denying that he's wrinky, old & french.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There aren't many posters on here and not many are that extreme. Just a few posters take it that far. But maybe you've misread a few posts. ;)

Not all the time perhaps, but I do think there's a strong element of the reactionary at times with posters (and I would even include myself in that).
And I hate to keep bringing it up but it's not a straw man argument, there are posters on here who have expressed that managers like Pulis would do a better job at Arsenal than Wenger. Now it's their opinion and their entitled to it, though I think they have all their work in front of them to evidence why this would be.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You do worship him - you are now denying that he's wrinky, old & french.

He's not that wrinkly for someone of his age, and old is a relative term but French is something beyond debate

[PGFC]

You do worship him - you are now denying that he's wrinky, old & french.


He's not that wrinkly for someone of his age, and old is a relative term but French is something beyond debate

Meh, He's from the Alsace, He's more German than French now, twisted and wrinkled...

[Dein-machine]

He's not that wrinkly for someone of his age, and old is a relative term but French is something beyond debate

Are you wrinklier?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No I'm more haggard than wrinkly

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Meh, He's from the Alsace, He's more German than French now, twisted and wrinkled...

Well Alsace has always been French in Wengers life time, but yep it's a border region and his favourite team as a kid was Borussia Moechengladblach

[Power n Glory]

Not all the time perhaps, but I do think there's a strong element of the reactionary at times with posters (and I would even include myself in that).
And I hate to keep bringing it up but it's not a straw man argument, there are posters on here who have expressed that managers like Pulis would do a better job at Arsenal than Wenger. Now it's their opinion and their entitled to it, though I think they have all their work in front of them to evidence why this would be.

There are one or two that hold that view but it's not a view expressed by the majority. Certainly not me. I'm dead against a David Moyes and said that before the Man Utd debacle.

There aren't that many regular posters on here and I don't see why there is a need to generalise as if there is a massive consensus on here.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There are one or two that hold that view but it's not a view expressed by the majority. Certainly not me. I'm dead against a David Moyes and said that before the Man Utd debacle.

There aren't that many regular posters on here and I don't see why there is a need to generalise as if there is a massive consensus on here.

I don't believe I said it was a consensus of opinion nor have I stated any of the extreme Anti Wenger sentiments are the prevailing opinion.
I have confined myself to saying "some" posters, which indicates that it's more than one person rather than a majority
No there aren't loads of regular posters on here, but there are quite a few posters like myself who make flying visits. The last few days I have posted here regularly, but there are times where I won't come here for a few weeks.

[Globalgunner]

The times Wenger has won the league, he had a better squad of players than every other team in the league. He needs this to overcome his own intrinsic limitations as a manager. Our squad of 2000-2004 was arguably better than that of United and we only won the league twice with United scoring a hat trick of wins 99-01. No way he wins the league without superior and more importantly strong willed players. He has actively shunned players of the calibre of Vieira or Adams preferring the more malleable types. Ironically, I believe you can't really win the big prizes without these gladiators.
It's going G to be a long wait, I fear.

[Letters]

One could argue that we had a better squad of players than every other team because of his strengths as a manager.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's your opinion, Uniteds team of 1997-1998 I think player for player was better than ours....they only needed to add Jaap Stam and Dwight Yorke to it, to win them the treble the next season.

Wenger brought the best out of a collection of young stars, using the same back four that had finished mid table at times under George Graham.

And if we were the best side in the period of 2000-2004 who was it that developed those players (many weren't established stars but were unknown or had failed to make it abroad).

I can appreciate your disdain of Wengers last ten years it is a catalogue of missed opportunity despite the financial restraints, but i think people who try to re draw the past to fit their narrative have to accept the accusation of zealotry.

[GP]

One could argue that we had a better squad of players than every other team because of his strengths as a manager.

Nah he got lucky because of his knowledge of the french market and the players he inherited despite the majority of them claiming that he elevated their performances and prolonging their careers.

He'll never win anything again (not including the two trophies in the last two seasons which I have chosen to disregard because fuck you)

[Power n Glory]

I don't believe I said it was a consensus of opinion nor have I stated any of the extreme Anti Wenger sentiments are the prevailing opinion.
I have confined myself to saying "some" posters, which indicates that it's more than one person rather than a majority
No there aren't loads of regular posters on here, but there are quite a few posters like myself who make flying visits. The last few days I have posted here regularly, but there are times where I won't come here for a few weeks.

I'm not quoting you directly. You don't have to say those exact words but I already said to Letter's it's just a few individuals but you followed up on that by saying


but I do think there's a strong element of the reactionary at times with posters (and I would even include myself in that).
And I hate to keep bringing it up but it's not a straw man argument, there are posters on here who have expressed that managers like Pulis would do a better job at Arsenal than Wenger.

Are you implying the reactionary posts on here go that far? Is it that strong? As said, I think it boils down to a few individuals. The views on here are quite varied imo.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I do believe that when the shit hits the fan even the more moderate of us make ill considered statements yes, that's less of a problem than people who make the same statements in the cold light of day (who I accept are far fewer).

[Dein-machine]

One could argue that we had a better squad of players than every other team because of his strengths as a manager.

Amazingly - I have to agree with you on this. His early squads & ofcourse the Invincibles "never say die" attitude have given me my greatest Arsenal memories ( apart from Alan Sunderland & Mickey Thomas ).
There also a case to suggest the Stadium move, whilst being key to the long term success of the club, also cost Wenger the chance to be Immortal amongst us fans in relation to on the pitch success.

One of my mates came out with something the over day which I did feel was quite relevant, especially me being in the " Wenger out" brigade - imagine if he felt he had achieved the "unsurpassable" after the Incincibles year & had been tempted to manage in Spain, went to Barcelona & managed the team during the recent Barca "worldy" times when Messi & the like were unplayable. Then retired a few years ago. There would be a case to suggest he was the greatest club manager of all time & I think I would be in agreement with that. - Funny old game!

[GP]

Lol nah the wrinkly old French cunt would have played Messi at left back and traded Iniesta for Kalou.

#WengerOut

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Could never have seen him joining Barca or Real Madrid where he wouldn't have control over what signings the club makes

[Kano]

No - although I'd love to be proved wrong as much as he'd love to shove it up the arse of everyone who doubts him.

Even with the necessary upgrades we require I don't think he can manage a group well enough anymore over a season. Plus the injury problem always seems to be there so we basically need double the squad to stand any chance. Man Utd aren't messing around, City are still better than ourselves as are Chelsea - 3rd at best next season.

[Power n Glory]

Lol nah the wrinkly old French cunt would have played Messi at left back and traded Iniesta for Kalou.

#WengerOut

Letter's sort your son out. :lol:

Every post he comes in at this level when a discussion gets going. Always on the WUM.

[Power n Glory]

That's your opinion, Uniteds team of 1997-1998 I think player for player was better than ours....they only needed to add Jaap Stam and Dwight Yorke to it, to win them the treble the next season.

Wenger brought the best out of a collection of young stars, using the same back four that had finished mid table at times under George Graham.

And if we were the best side in the period of 2000-2004 who was it that developed those players (many weren't established stars but were unknown or had failed to make it abroad).

I can appreciate your disdain of Wengers last ten years it is a catalogue of missed opportunity despite the financial restraints, but i think people who try to re draw the past to fit their narrative have to accept the accusation of zealotry.

Having a better team than Utd....that's debatable. But we had a better team than most of the Prem and that does boil down to Wenger's knowledge of the market and our scouts, the fitness regime he implemented which changed the league and our emphasis on finding technically gifted players in all areas. He introduced the attacking wingback to the Prem at that time and making our CB's pass the ball out instead of hoofing it long. He changed the game and he certainly was a better manager than most of his colleagues and we had the better squad. We crushed most teams in the league but in Europe we often struggled to find our league form.

The only time I felt uncomfortable about meeting a certain team were CL games or Man Utd. But overall, I felt like we had the best team and our only competition was Utd. We had major International players with World Cups and Euros to their name. Financially, I always felt we were punching above our weight but never technically. We had one of the best coaches and some real talented players. Is that revisionism? I kind of get what Global is saying with the superior argument. We really were the superior team but now the face of the league has changed. Smaller teams have a lot of money to burn, the bigger teams have unlimited funds along with the title winners and CL winning coaches over here. Joes, Ancelotti, Van Gaal, Mancini…. Ronald Koeman is managing Southampton! The standard is getting better. On the playing side we’ve seen more technically gifted players arrive with some of the world’s best coming here when before first picks were Spain or Italy.

[Globalgunner]

That's your opinion, Uniteds team of 1997-1998 I think player for player was better than ours....they only needed to add Jaap Stam and Dwight Yorke to it, to win them the treble the next season.

Wenger brought the best out of a collection of young stars, using the same back four that had finished mid table at times under George Graham.

And if we were the best side in the period of 2000-2004 who was it that developed those players (many weren't established stars but were unknown or had failed to make it abroad).

I can appreciate your disdain of Wengers last ten years it is a catalogue of missed opportunity despite the financial restraints, but i think people who try to re draw the past to fit their narrative have to accept the accusation of zealotry.

Of course it's my opinion, what else could it be. I would not however trade the team of 2000-2004 for any of Uniteds during the same period. I would also venture that exchanging squads with Fergie during that period, Wenger would have won less and Fergie more. To further buttress my argument. That was our best squad in recent history and we've won no big trophies since, except the Letters cup 3 times.

Wenger hit the mother lode with that era of players, it will take a similar squad to replicate that. In fairness, this squad is not far off. It needs only a lethal striker and a midfield general now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We also had a much smaller squad than United during that period which didn't help

Could Ferguson have won more in that 2000-2004 period, unless you've found a way of crossing time lines and alternate dimensions we will never know. Probably may have, but I don't think anyone is debating whether Ferguson is better than Wenger just a bit silly to suggest that Wenger came about his success through serendipity.

[Maestro]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsene-wenger-interview-leave-arsenal-6118271


The bastard winds me up so much, sometimes, but we have a legendary manager ....maybe not as successful trophy-wise as some of his contemporaries, but Wenger is a cool cat with a lot of class. His almost dictatorial obsession with shaping a philosophy and identity for this club has put something in place that we will thank him later for.

We are ready for the next stage with or without him, but make no mistake ...he's mostly the reason why we're "ready for that next stage", we're on the map and looking ready to go. He has a month to pick up a couple of good signings and I hope he does, to give us a chance to challenge strongly this season.

It is time for Wenger to step down, and most of us agree on that but there is also a significant number who are happy for him to stay, and a some who are willing to support him if strengthened and strongly challenged. I don't hate Wenger, I just hate some of the decisions he makes and their subsequent consequences. Fact is he's here for a little while yet, so whilst he's here I am going to support him and the team positively, because you know what I think I really like and respect Wenger as a true legend and visionary for us, classy with it as well. I think and agree with that the club is in a good place to step up, he knows it and even he's starting to think of a future away from the club and maybe football altogether ......:shrug: who knows?

[Dein-machine]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsene-wenger-interview-leave-arsenal-6118271


The bastard winds me up so much, sometimes, but we have a legendary manager ....maybe not as successful trophy-wise as some of his contemporaries, but Wenger is a cool cat with a lot of class. His almost dictatorial obsession with shaping a philosophy and identity for this club has put something in place that we will thank him later for.

We are ready for the next stage with or without him, but make no mistake ...he's mostly the reason why we're "ready for that next stage", we're on the map and looking ready to go. He has a month to pick up a couple of good signings and I hope he does, to give us a chance to challenge strongly this season.

It is time for Wenger to step down, and most of us agree on that but there is also a significant number who are happy for him to stay, and a some who are willing to support him if strengthened and strongly challenged. I don't hate Wenger, I just hate some of the decisions he makes and their subsequent consequences. Fact is he's here for a little while yet, so whilst he's here I am going to support him and the team positively, because you know what I think I really like and respect Wenger as a true legend and visionary for us, classy with it as well. I think and agree with that the club is in a good place to step up, he knows it and even he's starting to think of a future away from the club and maybe football altogether ......:shrug: who knows?

:gp: - whether you for or against him staying I feel this probably sums up the feelings of most of us on here. For me its a shame, the areas where he has been poor ie spending that bit extra to buy proven quality, addressing the glaring issues in the team as opposed to sticking with players that were so obviously too weak & lack of tactical nous in the bigger games - I think he will look back one day & realise he got those things horribly wrong far too often,
You want somebody to say to him - "Look Arsene, the job you have done here over the years has put this football club in a fantastic position, you took on Man U in the early years with all their money & gave them as good as we got, you've given us Champions league football every year, even with others seemingly having an endless pot of money. Now, thanks to you, we're in a position to really have a go at these guys by spending the necessary money - you had 10 tough years of austerity, now go & treat yourself & the Arsenal fans to a few special players that we take us to the next level"

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course now that UEFA has buckled to the Arab shysters and FFP has been tossed into the shitter, even if we do spend a few quid and push on, the filthy oil swine in gypoland and the thieving Russian hoodlum in chavland can chuck even more cash around to re-establish the gap. Hard to go up against criminals who are immune and expect to come out on top. That's not to say we shouldn't try. We should never underestimate the comedic returns on watching pretend clubs like the chavs and gypos burning up money to finish a few points ahead while playing anti-football. Might not be a title but it's a decent enough consolation.

[selassie]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/arsene-wenger-interview-leave-arsenal-6118271


The bastard winds me up so much, sometimes, but we have a legendary manager ....maybe not as successful trophy-wise as some of his contemporaries, but Wenger is a cool cat with a lot of class. His almost dictatorial obsession with shaping a philosophy and identity for this club has put something in place that we will thank him later for.

We are ready for the next stage with or without him, but make no mistake ...he's mostly the reason why we're "ready for that next stage", we're on the map and looking ready to go. He has a month to pick up a couple of good signings and I hope he does, to give us a chance to challenge strongly this season.

It is time for Wenger to step down, and most of us agree on that but there is also a significant number who are happy for him to stay, and a some who are willing to support him if strengthened and strongly challenged. I don't hate Wenger, I just hate some of the decisions he makes and their subsequent consequences. Fact is he's here for a little while yet, so whilst he's here I am going to support him and the team positively, because you know what I think I really like and respect Wenger as a true legend and visionary for us, classy with it as well. I think and agree with that the club is in a good place to step up, he knows it and even he's starting to think of a future away from the club and maybe football altogether ......:shrug: who knows?

:gp:

Especially the part in bold, that is what infuriates me about Wenger.

[fakeyank]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11757421/Why-Arsenal-will-win-the-Premier-League-title-this-season.html

Trophy is coming home boys :trophy:

[Letters]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11757421/Why-Arsenal-will-win-the-Premier-League-title-this-season.html

Trophy is coming home boys :trophy:

I don't think we'll be miles away, if we could sign a top striker we'd have a great chance but the level of striker that would significantly improve us doesn't grow on trees.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Fascinating debate.

On Mourinho's managerial abilities, he's not a manager who willingly goes with anything but a lethal forward line. If he managed AFC....heaven help us & forbid.......he would not allow any significant reliance on Giroud and Welbeck to win him anything major.

If we aren't going to win the league by scoring the most goals, we're going to need a pretty tight unit all around.

But in any case do I think we can win the league under Wenger again? Yes I do. It is pretty unlikely at this present moment in time though....

[Özim]

I don't think we'll be miles away, if we could sign a top striker we'd have a great chance but the level of striker that would significantly improve us doesn't grow on trees.
They never do, except nearly every top club seems to be able to find them except us.

As someone once said, you make transfers happen you don't sit there and wait for someone to fall on your lap.

[fakeyank]

I don't think we'll be miles away, if we could sign a top striker we'd have a great chance but the level of striker that would significantly improve us doesn't grow on trees.

We will not win the title because AW is our manager. We can bring Ronaldo in and I am sure we will come 2nd at best.

[Letters]

:yawn: yeah, we'll never win a trophy under him again...

[fakeyank]

Sorry I didnt clearly mention title = Premier League, but I am sure you understood what I meant.

[Letters]

I did. But you were probably (correct me if I'm wrong) one of the people saying we'd never win any trophies under Wenger again.
After the Birmingham debacle I thought the same.
Wenger's already shown he can win the title, he's done it 3 times. The only difference now is you've got 2 billionaire-cheat sides making it far more difficult.
Right now though we've got a squad which is very close to being able to win it, one or two signings and we'd have a great chance.

[Özim]

I did. But you were probably (correct me if I'm wrong) one of the people saying we'd never win any trophies under Wenger again.
After the Birmingham debacle I thought the same.
Wenger's already shown he can win the title, he's done it 3 times. The only difference now is you've got 2 billionaire-cheat sides making it far more difficult.
Right now though we've got a squad which is very close to being able to win it, one or two signings and we'd have a great chance.

He won the title over a decade ago, that's a long time in football, he doesn't show any signs of being able to win another title there are glaring holes in his management methods which give us little chance.

You say one or two signings, but that's one of the problems, he's highly unlikely to make those signings, he always seems satisfied with what he has, even the managers who have won the league or CL the year before aren't.

[Letters]

Yes, and we've had a decade of stadium repayments while the billionaires run amok. Those financial constraints are now lifted, Wenger has started spending money and the difference has been obvious. 2 trophies in 2 years after years of nothing.
Any 'glaring holes' in his management methods were there a decade ago when he was winning titles.
Wenger has shown he can still win us trophies (something most of us had started to doubt) and we've shown as a squad we can stand up in the big games.
For two thirds of last season we matched Chelsea stride for stride, we've yet to do it for a whole season but we're good enough, IMO.
If we had a proper, top striker we'd have a very good chance. Even as it is we've got the squad to compete.
I don't know about 15 points, but Cech will make a difference IMO, there's no reason to think we won't go very close this year.

[Power n Glory]

Yes, and we've had a decade of stadium repayments while the billionaires run amok. Those financial constraints are now lifted, Wenger has started spending money and the difference has been obvious. 2 trophies in 2 years after years of nothing.
Any 'glaring holes' in his management methods were there a decade ago when he was winning titles.
Wenger has shown he can still win us trophies (something most of us had started to doubt) and we've shown as a squad we can stand up in the big games.
For two thirds of last season we matched Chelsea stride for stride, we've yet to do it for a whole season but we're good enough, IMO.
If we had a proper, top striker we'd have a very good chance. Even as it is we've got the squad to compete.
I don't know about 15 points, but Cech will make a difference IMO, there's no reason to think we won't go very close this year.

Do you have this argument copied and pasted somewhere? We've got £200m sitting in the bank and if we're a player away from being favorites to win the title, it's time to stop making excuses.

[Letters]

Do you have this argument copied and pasted somewhere?
Do you have yours?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you have this argument copied and pasted somewhere? We've got £200m sitting in the bank and if we're a player away from being favorites to win the title, it's time to stop making excuses.

For the sake of argument what striker would you buy, the problem for me is that there isn't anything that is a vast improvement on what we have. It's not that I rate Giroud, I just really don't rate Benzema or Cavani and Aubemeyang probably would play on the behind the striker and we already have people that can do that (Sanchez for example).

Lacazette? Impressive goal scoring stats last season but we bought Giroud on the basis of one good season so I'm naturally skeptical.

Don't get me wrong we should definitely be going in hard to buy a striker, just off the top of my head I don't know who that top quality striker is because the three best ones in world football are all owned by one club.

Muller? Look at his goal scoring stats and not so impressive

Reus? Not really a striker, but I don't know maybe could play in that position...might be asking a lot of a player his age

In Giroud we have a wiltord, the task is to find our Thierry Henry

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you have this argument copied and pasted somewhere? We've got £200m sitting in the bank and if we're a player away from being favorites to win the title, it's time to stop making excuses.

For the sake of argument what striker would you buy, the problem for me is that there isn't anything that is a vast improvement on what we have. It's not that I rate Giroud, I just really don't rate Benzema or Cavani and Aubemeyang probably would play on the behind the striker and we already have people that can do that (Sanchez for example).

Lacazette? Impressive goal scoring stats last season but we bought Giroud on the basis of one good season so I'm naturally skeptical.

Don't get me wrong we should definitely be going in hard to buy a striker, just off the top of my head I don't know who that top quality striker is because the three best ones in world football are all owned by one club.

Muller? Look at his goal scoring stats and not so impressive

Reus? Not really a striker, but I don't know maybe could play in that position...might be asking a lot of a player his age

In Giroud we have a wiltord, the task is to find our Thierry Henry

[Power n Glory]

Do you have yours?

How many times will you outline the stadium repayments, the billionaire clubs and being close to victory. We've got £200m in the bank and if a top class striker is all it takes for us to win the league, why take this sort of risk.


"We get a list of the players that Wenger wants," Harris noted. "On the list is a centre-forward, but I'm not going to tell you who he is. You've got to get the other team to want to sell him, but I think he wants to come. It basically comes down to whether the other team can find a superstar to replace him, because they don't have to sell."


This is a case where we may have to pay over the odds to get our man but if he believe this player can win us the league, is it not worth it?

[Letters]

How many times will you outline the stadium repayments, the billionaire clubs and being close to victory
Every time some tit says something about how Wenger hates spending money or how he isn't interested in success or he's incompetent or all the other things which are repeated ad nauseum.
If I keep saying the same things it's because other people do too.

But yes, we have the money and I agree we should be going all out for a top striker which could push us on for a really serious title challenge. But they don't grow on trees, there aren't that many players at the level who would really push us on.

[Power n Glory]

For the sake of argument what striker would you buy, the problem for me is that there isn't anything that is a vast improvement on what we have. It's not that I rate Giroud, I just really don't rate Benzema or Cavani and Aubemeyang probably would play on the behind the striker and we already have people that can do that (Sanchez for example).

Lacazette? Impressive goal scoring stats last season but we bought Giroud on the basis of one good season so I'm naturally skeptical.

Don't get me wrong we should definitely be going in hard to buy a striker, just off the top of my head I don't know who that top quality striker is because the three best ones in world football are all owned by one club.

Muller? Look at his goal scoring stats and not so impressive

Reus? Not really a striker, but I don't know maybe could play in that position...might be asking a lot of a player his age

In Giroud we have a wiltord, the task is to find our Thierry Henry

I hear your what you’re saying regarding the quality available or the type of players we deem to be suitable or not suitable for the squad. But our assessment and judgment is irrelevant at the end of the day. If Wenger has a list of players he wants and there is someone at the top of that list, I’m assuming he knows they’ll improve our squad and that he has a plan for that player. At first I thought we had a problem identifying suitable players but that doesn’t seem like the case. This is the difference between Wenger and his peers. Fergie went all out to sign RVP from us and was willing to pay a high fee on an injury prone player. Why? Because he knew that;s what his team needed to challenge for the title. Jose made sure he got Costa and Cesc because it was clear he was missing a playmaker and striker last season. Why aren’t we doing the same? It’s just so risky and this sort of thing has back fired on us before. We should have a squad together training during pre season and ready for kick off.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/33648776

[Letters]

We've got the money but it's not *quite* as simple as that, the player has to want to come to us.
That said, despite what people may think of him on here, Wenger is still well respected in the game, Ozil said he was swayed by Wenger calling him.
I'll be disappointed if we don't do something this summer, I do think we've got a squad that can compete but just one more special player could give everyone a lift and push us on.
Wenger does have a maddening history of resting on us laurels when he think the squad is good enough, I get that stability is a good thing, but having someone of Sanchez' quality to play with is a good thing too.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I hear your what you’re saying regarding the quality available or the type of players we deem to be suitable or not suitable for the squad. But our assessment and judgment is irrelevant at the end of the day. If Wenger has a list of players he wants and there is someone at the top of that list, I’m assuming he knows they’ll improve our squad and that he has a plan for that player. At first I thought we had a problem identifying suitable players but that doesn’t seem like the case. This is the difference between Wenger and his peers. Fergie went all out to sign RVP from us and was willing to pay a high fee on an injury prone player. Why? Because he knew that;s what his team needed to challenge for the title. Jose made sure he got Costa and Cesc because it was clear he was missing a playmaker and striker last season. Why aren’t we doing the same? It’s just so risky and this sort of thing has back fired on us before. We should have a squad together training during pre season and ready for kick off.

Don't disagree with any of that but just stating that there isn't an obvious candidate out there for me, however read the link from BBC Sport...looks like we are after someone.

[Power n Glory]

That's what I read this morning but on Bleacher Report.

Zim said this yesterday.


As someone once said, you make transfers happen you don't sit there and wait for someone to fall on your lap.

Blink said it best.


I don't completely buy the 'if somebody becomes available line'. I think you have to make players available by showing the colour of your money at times. Then suddenly unavailable becomes available.

[fakeyank]

I did. But you were probably (correct me if I'm wrong) one of the people saying we'd never win any trophies under Wenger again.
After the Birmingham debacle I thought the same.
Wenger's already shown he can win the title, he's done it 3 times. The only difference now is you've got 2 billionaire-cheat sides making it far more difficult.
Right now though we've got a squad which is very close to being able to win it, one or two signings and we'd have a great chance.

I always tried to refrain from saying that we would never win ANY trophy under Wenger. Weird cup runs in CC and FA Cup are always possible. Birmingham and Pompey are good examples, so if I did say we will not win ANY trophy under Wenger, I might have spoken right after a frustrating match.

I just cannot see Wenger lasting the season with the likes of Mourinho and the rise of sides who are not scared of the big boys anymore. But you know this... you know what will happen come end of the season.. we will either go on a great run at the beginning or the end of the season and you will come out with some stats of 12 wins out of 14, no away losses to the big 4 etc. Its rinse and repeat with this manager and I have NOT seen one thing different that will make me think otherwise.

[Letters]

I've explained over and over what is different, the new level of signings, the wins in big away games - particularly the 2 in Manchester last year and, most importantly, that's resulted in 2 trophies in 2 years. And neither of the Cup runs was weird, in both seasons we played big teams - believe we played 3 of the top 6 (all at home, but still) in 2014 and we had Utd away this year. We earned those trophies.

We've not the biggest prizes yet, but to suggest nothing has changed is rather perverse.

I agree that with Mourinho around we face a tough job, with two billionaire cheats we do anyway. I don't think many managers could finish above both. Fergie did it, no-one else has since they got going.

[Power n Glory]

Fergie spent money. Man Utd aren't skint. Is there a need to elevate him that much just to enhance your argument?

[Letters]

13 PLs, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 2 Champions Leagues, 1 Cup Winners Cup.

I don't think I'm 'elevating' him...

[Power n Glory]

13 PLs, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 2 Champions Leagues, 1 Cup Winners Cup.

I don't think I'm 'elevating' him...

We all know the trophy count. But how about counting their record transfers, the record spending and how much revenue they bring in each year. Try counting that also and include them with the super rich argument.

[fakeyank]

I've explained over and over what is different, the new level of signings, the wins in big away games - particularly the 2 in Manchester last year and, most importantly, that's resulted in 2 trophies in 2 years. And neither of the Cup runs was weird, in both seasons we played big teams - believe we played 3 of the top 6 (all at home, but still) in 2014 and we had Utd away this year. We earned those trophies.

We've not the biggest prizes yet, but to suggest nothing has changed is rather perverse.

I agree that with Mourinho around we face a tough job, with two billionaire cheats we do anyway. I don't think many managers could finish above both. Fergie did it, no-one else has since they got going.

Nothing has changed in Wengers philosophy or his way of working. He still has no plan B in games. He still waits for the players to become available, rather than making things happen. He still plays players out of position. He is still 'forced into a correct decision' due to injuries, rather than own ability (Coquelin).

Again, I said this at the beginning of last season and the season before.. come Feb/March, we will be having the same shitty conversation of 'whether we made progress or not'. Frankly, I dont know why I even bother but I know I'll be here saying the same thing I said last year and the year before and the year before...

Please prove me wrong this season... PUHLEASEEEE!! :pray:

[Letters]

We all know the trophy count. But how about counting their record transfers, the record spending and how much revenue they bring in each year. Try counting that also and include them with the super rich argument.

They did spend big at times, but it was money they earned through previous success and it was generally to consolidate their position. Fergie's initial success didn't come about through money and the way he sustained it even in the era of billionaires trying to buy up every trophy - it was very impressive.
I never felt Utd were buying success in the same way City and Chelsea have.

[Power n Glory]

They did spend big at times, but it was money they earned through previous success and it was generally to consolidate their position. Fergie's initial success didn't come about through money and the way he sustained it even in the era of billionaires trying to buy up every trophy - it was very impressive.
I never felt Utd were buying success in the same way City and Chelsea have.

How they came about the money they earned is another story but if you're going to correlate title success with the amount a team spends, then you may need to underplay Fergie a little. For a long time they were the biggest club in England with spending power that dwarfed their rivals.

When Chelsea arrived they spent more money. In his last season he spent a lot of money on our captain as well. If we're going to put an empathisis on spending power at least remember Fergie was at the helm of one of the richest clubs in the world for a very long time.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How they came about the money they earned is another story but if you're going to correlate title success with the amount a team spends, then you may need to underplay Fergie a little. For a long time they were the biggest club in England with spending power that dwarfed their rivals.

When Chelsea arrived they spent more money. In his last season he spent a lot of money on our captain as well. If we're going to put an empathisis on spending power at least remember Fergie was at the helm of one of the richest clubs in the world for a very long time.

I agree whilst it is not always the case that the team who spends most wins, it is majoratively the case...and not just in the last ten years either.
But I think what Wenger is saying is that Ferguson who did spend big on players, didn't do it all at once....he would make one or two big money signings to compliment his established team full of players he had developed and ones he had bought previously.
And Wenger is right in saying that Van Gaal in a short space of time is buying himself a whole new team, but I can understand why he's doing it. Van Gaal is not a man who will have years given to him to patiently develop a team, he is under pressure to deliver success and yes I believe Ferguson left his successors up shit creek with the squad he bequeathed them
If Van Gaal is succesful, presumably a younger man will take that and build on it with a mixture of signing and developing potential.

[Kano]

Whatever the failings of Wenger, anyone with their head screwed on will have to back him on quietening down this £200m in the bank story.

If Arsenal wanted to buy any player in the world they could. Not even taking this noise into consideration, we have the assets to secure the necessary capital whatever happens. So the point being made is an empty one. There is absolutely no verification to what The Lord of Peckham is saying here, he is just providing another media stick to beat Wenger with. And let's face it, that isn't really needed as we all have our own.

We may well have £200m in 'the bank' but at what stage and what else are those funds committed to? I can only imagine a handful of businesses having that sort of money sitting dormant in their transactional account. If his statement is true, everyone can access the annual accounts so his words are hardly revelatory if anyone cared to look.

And the question has to be asked, how did he come to be talking to The Daily Mail? Did he approach or was it gutter media sniffing for a story in a deathly quiet transfer window? This is DMG Media FFS, since when did they get the benefit of the doubt? How many people would normally take the word of our directors as read? And this 'working class hero' only wants to pipe up when it comes to counting the stacks of money taken from fans pockets so he can boast aloud to the press. Go stroke your repugnant ego off somewhere else you leeching Tory cunt.

[Globalgunner]

The Director chap said nothing we and the world didnt know already. Weve been bandying the 200m thing on these pages for more than a year. Again, which other manager in world football would be trying to put a director of his club back in his place?. None, none at all. the 200m is surplus money that we have been accruing over the last 10 years. It didnt just materialise last year weith the new TV deal. It isnt for salaries or paying the debt. Its money that could have been spent on players but wasnt. Wenger is the one who should STFU and start improving the team.

[Power n Glory]

Interesting point about the manager to put a director back in his place, Globalgunner. But it's nothing we haven't seen before with PHW's infamous war chest stories. The fans would often get told Wenger would have funds to spend but when he didn't spend it, the backlash would go back on the Board and they'd often take a lot of flack for Wenger's inactivity. We may not have had unlimited funds but we had funds and I believe we'd go into a season looking thin and under strength because Wenger employs this risky deadline day strategy. Trying to pick up bargain deals on the basis that we're taking on cast away players that have to be moved on by their clubs. It's how we ended up with Welbeck and Ozil. I'm sure he'll have plenty of funny stories and anecdotes about these last dash scramble deals but I wish we weren't gambling like this at crucial moments and he has often referred to the window as a game like Chess or Poker.

It's not wise for Lord Harris to spew so much about our finances to the public but if the fans were still unaware of our new financial deals and kept in the dark about our spending power, I'm sure the Board would be taking a lot of heat right now for not spending. Gazidis used to get it often. We've seen it before. Forecast pages printed claiming we're broke. Theories about all our money being spent on Ozil and Sanchez with crazy mathematical sums suggesting both players have cost us £150bn and whatever else because of agency fees, lawyers fees, shoelace fees...:blah: At least we really know the club is in good shape with money to compete and if things fall apart for us this season the spotlight falls on one man. Ambiguous language about our finances can no longer be accepted.

[Globalgunner]

This is the typical lily-livered get out of jail crutch that Wenger uses to mask his own ineptitude. Come the end of the season and we end up 3rd/4th again. When he is pressed on it he will say."Overall we are happy with our season. You have to remember that we tried very hard to recruit the players that will improve us, but their clubs would not release them. We spent only 20m while the teams above us spent 120m. I think you have to judge us by how we improved from last season. Our points tally was much better. I believe this team has huge potential. I am sure next season with 1 or 2 new additions, we will surprise everybody"

We are reportedly chasing Aubameyang now. He could have bought him 2013 when he joined Dortmund but instead opted for Sanogo. Basically hes afraid that if he spends as much as the other teams and still comes up short, then his position becomes untenable...and as we all know for Wenger its all about keeping his job, not about doing the best for the club.

For Wenger, his career has no end. Come 2016, Ozil, Sanchez, Kos and others will be asking themselves when they are ever going to win a title. We the fans will be lambasting them when they leave for serious clubs and we have to start all over again.

[Penguin]

You can't really criticise Wenger for not buying Aubameyang in 2013. He scored 18 and 21 goals in 2011/12 and 2012/13, with a similar goals per game ratio to Gervinho in the French league. Then he went to Dortmund and scored 16 in 48 games. That's hardly the record of a world class striker. It's only the season just gone that he came to life, so it's the right time to try to sign him - after he's proven that he's not another dud.

Problem is Dortmund don't want to sell and they are particularly hard headed when they don't want to let a player go. He needs to either pay over the odds and make an offer they can't refuse, or move on and get to work on signing the next name on his list.

[Letters]

Nothing has changed in Wengers philosophy or his way of working. He still has no plan B in games. He still waits for the players to become available, rather than making things happen. He still plays players out of position. He is still 'forced into a correct decision' due to injuries, rather than own ability (Coquelin).

Again, I said this at the beginning of last season and the season before.. come Feb/March, we will be having the same shitty conversation of 'whether we made progress or not'. Frankly, I dont know why I even bother but I know I'll be here saying the same thing I said last year and the year before and the year before...

Please prove me wrong this season... PUHLEASEEEE!! :pray:

I agree nothing has changed in Wenger's philosophy but it's the same philosophy that won us 3 titles back in the day and in the last 2 years has won us 2 FA Cups. It's a common misconception that because we were very successful in the earlier part of his time with us and have been less so since it must mean that Wenger is doing things differently. If anything, the problem (as much as we have a problem) is he isn't doing things differently while other clubs are.

Wenger's early success came about because of his knowledge of the European game and (at the time) revolutionary training methods - it should be remembered that Wenger came to us in the era of 'drinking schools' in clubs, some players from that era have credited Wenger with lengthening their careers. We had the pick of the talent in Europe that weren't on other clubs' radars, we used to get criticized for having so many foreign players, now the PL is awash with foreign talent as other clubs have wised up. Wenger hasn't lost his edge, other clubs have caught up and, arguably, overtaken us.
Also, when Wenger came to us the money in the game wasn't quite so obscene and you didn't have billionaires attempting to buy up trophies left right and center.

Money and success are highly correlated in today's game. The only 3 sides who have won the title since we last did are the 3 sides with bigger resources than us and we've been going through our own period of austerity with the stadium move. I agree that Wenger could have spent more here and there but he was restricted compared with the billionaire cheats. Since the new financial deals have been in place we've seen the difference in the level of spending and it has yielded results in terms of trophies. There are rumblings of a big signing this summer, nothing has happened yet but let's wait till the window SLAMS shut before drawing conclusions about this summer's dealings, or lack thereof.

The big difference I feel now is in mentality - a few years ago we would never have won that quarter final at Old Trafford. And although the title was all but gone we kept the pressure on as much as we could last year right up until the moment the title was gone mathematically. If we're in the mix in March/April then I trust this lot to keep going far more than I would have a few years ago. Bottom line though, it's tougher than it used to be to win the title. We're in an era where money and success are correlated and whatever our ticket prices we have the 4th biggest resources. We should be able to compete with the rest of the top 4 and I believe we can, but in the short term I can't see us dominating like we did in the early noughties no matter who our manager is.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

To the OP: No!

/thread

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I used to resolutely think no ....... that the old man was too stubborn, obstinate, fixed in his ways to adapt his methods to modern football but seeing how we're gradually making the necessary changes that we've needed for ages .... i.e. more tactical flexibility, actually analysing opponents, looking into our injury situation etc etc .... gives me hope that we can.

[fakeyank]

i.e. more tactical flexibility, actually analysing opponents

Other than the away game at city last season, what games did you see the above in?

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree nothing has changed in Wenger's philosophy but it's the same philosophy that won us 3 titles back in the day and in the last 2 years has won us 2 FA Cups. It's a common misconception that because we were very successful in the earlier part of his time with us and have been less so since it must mean that Wenger is doing things differently. If anything, the problem (as much as we have a problem) is he isn't doing things differently while other clubs are.

Moving from a high tempo, counter-attacking game that also featured absolute dominance of the midfield and was played by powerful athletes to a slower, tippy-tappy, lightweight game played by midgets could be considered a change in philosophy. We were brilliantly successful at the former and toothless with the latter. There have been signs we are shifting back towards a faster, counter attacking style, at least some of the time.

[Kano]

I agree nothing has changed in Wenger's philosophy but it's the same philosophy that won us 3 titles back in the day and in the last 2 years has won us 2 FA Cups. It's a common misconception that because we were very successful in the earlier part of his time with us and have been less so since it must mean that Wenger is doing things differently. If anything, the problem (as much as we have a problem) is he isn't doing things differently while other clubs are.

Wenger's early success came about because of his knowledge of the European game and (at the time) revolutionary training methods - it should be remembered that Wenger came to us in the era of 'drinking schools' in clubs, some players from that era have credited Wenger with lengthening their careers. We had the pick of the talent in Europe that weren't on other clubs' radars, we used to get criticized for having so many foreign players, now the PL is awash with foreign talent as other clubs have wised up. Wenger hasn't lost his edge, other clubs have caught up and, arguably, overtaken us.
Also, when Wenger came to us the money in the game wasn't quite so obscene and you didn't have billionaires attempting to buy up trophies left right and center.

Money and success are highly correlated in today's game. The only 3 sides who have won the title since we last did are the 3 sides with bigger resources than us and we've been going through our own period of austerity with the stadium move. I agree that Wenger could have spent more here and there but he was restricted compared with the billionaire cheats. Since the new financial deals have been in place we've seen the difference in the level of spending and it has yielded results in terms of trophies. There are rumblings of a big signing this summer, nothing has happened yet but let's wait till the window SLAMS shut before drawing conclusions about this summer's dealings, or lack thereof.

The big difference I feel now is in mentality - a few years ago we would never have won that quarter final at Old Trafford. And although the title was all but gone we kept the pressure on as much as we could last year right up until the moment the title was gone mathematically. If we're in the mix in March/April then I trust this lot to keep going far more than I would have a few years ago. Bottom line though, it's tougher than it used to be to win the title. We're in an era where money and success are correlated and whatever our ticket prices we have the 4th biggest resources. We should be able to compete with the rest of the top 4 and I believe we can, but in the short term I can't see us dominating like we did in the early noughties no matter who our manager is.

Wenger has been around at the club for so long that he has worked through a few cycles that have enabled him to be relevant (early years) fall from grace (the peak defensive Mourinho years that changed football) and now back again as philosophies have circled around to attack strategies, hence why the art of defending is suffering. And also why football has become so stagnated with so many teams playing the same repetitive style.

Just please stop about billionaire cheat nonsense. Yes it is sickening and tarnished football but boo hoo, Corporate Arsenal have done their very best to ensure our morals are just as tarnished in different ways. As a club with the long term 'ambition' of joining the murky waters of the very top tier in Europe, there has been no yellow brick road to get there. Big companies grow to their size by ripping off customers and making it look like they are doing their clients a favour. A brilliant con. Just like Arsenal and their brand of entertainment, whilst they trade on our nostalgia of fandom. We are just as guilty as these other clubs of running the game and changing the dynamics. There is nothing worse than accusing someone else when you are up to you to your neck in it too.

We have the highest ticket prices because our set of deals have undermined our commercial viability. So the Arsenal company thought the best way to compensate for their lack of business acumen was to make up for it via the fans. I'm not sure the turnover argument works anymore either. Sure, we have the fourth highest, so that fits well enough but Utd are first (finished 7th), followed by City and Chelsea. The absurd amount of TV money generated has distorted the idea that the overall money coming in equals league position. At the last count in 13/14, Southampton had the 11th (before their team was stripped) and Villa 9th. Liverpool were 5th. The total may indicate an approximation but I don't think it nails a team down to a certified spot. The detail of management and expertise of maximising the playing staff makes the difference. No-one can dominate because of that very reason - nearly all the top teams now have similar amounts of money to spend, so it comes down to the finer details. Ironically, the ridiculous and sickening influx of money into the game has now levelled things out to a degree.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Other than the away game at city last season, what games did you see the above in?

The Cup final for one.

Having Ches come and punch any dangerous crosses away to stop Benteke dominating aerial battles, dominating the midfield and through that isolating their sole threat up front, switching Theo and Alexis etc etc ........ it pretty much resulted in the almost perfect game we witnessed and the comprehensive win.

And even the template we used against Man City away wasn't really a one off - we tried it against Chelsea away but one moment of magic from Hazard and a ref who was susceptible to Hazard's propensity to go over easily put end to that.

Other notable ones include the Cup win against United where I thought we kept our shape well and also the Liverpool at home game where we exploited how porous and comical Liverpool's defending had been preceding that.

It's been documented in the Arsenal blogs and by the ITK's but we're definitely making improvements by actually studying opponents and preparing specific game plans for each match now. We've hired Ben Knapper (he's the random guy you see loitering around with the squad in videos at times) who does opposition video analysis for Wenger and the coaching staff and we're actually having team meetings to talk and discuss upcoming games prior to the event. Furthermore as part of the training ground improvements that's going to take place, we're building a state of the art video and data analysis centre.

It did use to be comically bad though; apparently all that used to happen was that some video clips were uploaded to a dropbox account and it was up to the players to choose whether or not to watch them. :doh:

Thankfully we've rectified that now. And even though it's something that should have happened ages ago, better late than never I say.

[Letters]

Just please stop about billionaire cheat nonsense.
How is it nonsense? The three sides who have won the title since we last did are Utd and the two billionaire cheats. All sides with bigger resources than us for different reasons.

I regard it as cheating because it's not money they've earned through previous success, they haven't worked their way up (although I accept in today's game that is virtually impossible, I don't think we'll see anyone do a Wimbledon, or what Forest did). If we're guilty,of anything it's exploiting our fans but what is the alternative? Mid-table? And if we are doing that, we can only do so because of our fan base which comes from our previous success.

We've earned our place at the top table, City and Chelsea haven't.

I agree with a lot of your post but those two clubs have completely distorted the market and bought their way to titles, it's completely relevant to whether we'll win the league under Wenger again, or any manager actually.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger has been around at the club for so long that he has worked through a few cycles that have enabled him to be relevant (early years) fall from grace (the peak defensive Mourinho years that changed football) and now back again as philosophies have circled around to attack strategies, hence why the art of defending is suffering. And also why football has become so stagnated with so many teams playing the same repetitive style.

Just please stop about billionaire cheat nonsense. Yes it is sickening and tarnished football but boo hoo, Corporate Arsenal have done their very best to ensure our morals are just as tarnished in different ways. As a club with the long term 'ambition' of joining the murky waters of the very top tier in Europe, there has been no yellow brick road to get there. Big companies grow to their size by ripping off customers and making it look like they are doing their clients a favour. A brilliant con. Just like Arsenal and their brand of entertainment, whilst they trade on our nostalgia of fandom. We are just as guilty as these other clubs of running the game and changing the dynamics. There is nothing worse than accusing someone else when you are up to you to your neck in it too.

We have the highest ticket prices because our set of deals have undermined our commercial viability. So the Arsenal company thought the best way to compensate for their lack of business acumen was to make up for it via the fans. I'm not sure the turnover argument works anymore either. Sure, we have the fourth highest, so that fits well enough but Utd are first (finished 7th), followed by City and Chelsea. The absurd amount of TV money generated has distorted the idea that the overall money coming in equals league position. At the last count in 13/14, Southampton had the 11th (before their team was stripped) and Villa 9th. Liverpool were 5th. The total may indicate an approximation but I don't think it nails a team down to a certified spot. The detail of management and expertise of maximising the playing staff makes the difference. No-one can dominate because of that very reason - nearly all the top teams now have similar amounts of money to spend, so it comes down to the finer details. Ironically, the ridiculous and sickening influx of money into the game has now levelled things out to a degree.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

How is it nonsense? The three sides who have won the title since we last did are Utd and the two billionaire cheats. All sides with bigger resources than us for different reasons.

I regard it as cheating because it's not money they've earned through previous success, they haven't worked their way up (although I accept in today's game that is virtually impossible, I don't think we'll see anyone do a Wimbledon, or what Forest did). If we're guilty,of anything it's exploiting our fans but what is the alternative? Mid-table? And if we are doing that, we can only do so because of our fan base which comes from our previous success.

We've earned our place at the top table, City and Chelsea haven't.

I agree with a lot of your post but those two clubs have completely distorted the market and bought their way to titles, it's completely relevant to whether we'll win the league under Wenger again, or any manager actually.

So what about Danny Fiszman investing £50m of his own money to help pay for better contracts, plus bring in Bergkamp, Platt, Vieira and Anelka?

[Niall_Quinn]

How is it nonsense? The three sides who have won the title since we last did are Utd and the two billionaire cheats. All sides with bigger resources than us for different reasons.

I regard it as cheating because it's not money they've earned through previous success, they haven't worked their way up (although I accept in today's game that is virtually impossible, I don't think we'll see anyone do a Wimbledon, or what Forest did). If we're guilty,of anything it's exploiting our fans but what is the alternative? Mid-table? And if we are doing that, we can only do so because of our fan base which comes from our previous success.

We've earned our place at the top table, City and Chelsea haven't.

I agree with a lot of your post but those two clubs have completely distorted the market and bought their way to titles, it's completely relevant to whether we'll win the league under Wenger again, or any manager actually.

I explained to you at the end of last season why it was exposed as utter nonsense when we had it in our hands to finish above the gypo cash cheats but instead collapsed. You claimed that was understandable given the chavs had already secured the title. And so we continue to hear excuses of why we can't compete because of the money, even though the evidence points to something else entirely.

[Globalgunner]

Letters is probably relieved that we finished behind City. Gives his perennial argument of money cheats further legs. Money isnt our problem, except the inability to spend it

[Letters]

I explained to you at the end of last season why it was exposed as utter nonsense when we had it in our hands to finish above the gypo cash cheats but instead collapsed. You claimed that was understandable given the chavs had already secured the title. And so we continue to hear excuses of why we can't compete because of the money, even though the evidence points to something else entirely.

Collapsed :lol:

We had this discussion a million times at the time. 2nd, 3rd, I don't care.
I have no idea where we finished in 1979 but I know we won the FA Cup.
I know where we finished in 1989 and 1991, as we were Champions. I can't remember where we finished in 1990, and that was the year I started going to games regularly. You're either champions or you're not. A few points above or below City isn't going down in the history books. The FA Cup win is.

The 3 sides who have won the title since we last did have significantly higher resources than we do. That isn't an argument, it's fact. And for a lot of that time we've been hamstrung financially. Now the financial constraints are off we should be competing with them and I expect us to this season. The new level of signings has yielded immediate results. Not the biggest prizes yet but we're heading in the right direction.

[Letters]

Letters is probably relieved that we finished behind City. Gives his perennial argument of money cheats further legs. Money isnt our problem, except the inability to spend it
I'm neither relieved or disappointed. A couple of points here and there, finishing 2nd or 3rd, no-one will remember that in a few years time.
They'll remember we won the Cup and City, despite all their money, didn't win anything though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Collapsed :lol:

We had this discussion a million times at the time. 2nd, 3rd, I don't care.
I have no idea where we finished in 1979 but I know we won the FA Cup.
I know where we finished in 1989 and 1991, as we were Champions. I can't remember where we finished in 1990, and that was the year I started going to games regularly. You're either champions or you're not. A few points above or below City isn't going down in the history books. The FA Cup win is.

The 3 sides who have won the title since we last did have significantly higher resources than we do. That isn't an argument, it's fact. And for a lot of that time we've been hamstrung financially. Now the financial constraints are off we should be competing with them and I expect us to this season. The new level of signings has yielded immediate results. Not the biggest prizes yet but we're heading in the right direction.

Yep - 4th is a trophy :trophy:

4th, 3rd, 17th, 11th - perfectly understandable not to strive for the best possible placing. It's not as if the manager and players get paid a fortune or the ticket prices are too high. Lack of ambition, lack of competing right to the finish line, can all be explained away because you don't remember where we finished in 79. It's a strong argument.

[Letters]

No, but the FA Cup is. You're the one arguing that a certain league placing is an achievement.

[Ollie the Optimist]

We won't be winning the title as we have a manager who just won't adequately strengthen the squad and is tactically very naive.

It's frustrating but it's a fact, any other top manager would have identified our weaknesses and tried to do something about them, not Wenger he just hopes lady luck will somehow turn players into world beaters when he needs them to.

have you seen our recent signings? Thats surely the definition of strengthening the squad. In the last two years, he has signed, Ozil, Alexis, Gabriel and Cech. Thats three world class players and a good defender. He didn't even need to sign Cech (i wouldn't have said a keeper was number 1 priority this summer), but he became available so he has sent out Scesney on loan to get a world class keeper in.

You say he would have identified weaknesses and changed them if he was a good manager. He has. You don't sign Alexis, Ozil and Cech if you aren't trying to improve the squad. He has signed good back up players recently too in Debuchy, Chambers, Ospina and Gabriel. He didn't get lucky with making players world beaters either, he stuck by Ramsey and now he is one of our best players. He stuck with Giroud and was rewarded with 19 goals last year (and he was out for three months) Koscienly under his guidance has become one of the best defenders in the world, and Bellerin came in last season and was outstanding. Thats not luck, thats his management on the training ground to get those players to perform on the pitch. The only one i would say was due to luck was Coqulain and how he got his chance.

His tactics could be better, but if you look at the second half of the season, they were. The city game was the prime example, he got every decision spot on and we produced one of the best performances i have seen from us in years. The final he got it right again. We won big games in the second half because of his tactical decisions, the way he set the team up etc. Thats not luck. I think from january to the end of the season, we won the most points, yes its no good doing it for half a season, however one difference between that and the first half was the amount of injuries we suffered. I read somewhere that between the start and january, we lost over a 1000 days to players being injured, in the second half we lost just 700 as Shad Forsythe's methods started to work (they were never going to be an instant success). So we suffer less injuries and suddenly our form goes right up as key players all stayed fit. We lost Ozil, Giroud, Koscienly, Walcott, Ox, Ospina and Wilshere to long term injuries last year, all players who by end of the season were either first choice or pushing very close to being starters. This year, we also have a full pre season, only Sanchez isn't back training, but he's probably running marathons in Chile to get his fitness up.

So basically to sum up, your post is just the same old boring crap you just spout about Wenger without actually looking at what he is doing. He needs to now transfer the second half season form into the full season, and given we have less injuries, and a full pre season, there is no reason why we can't. However just to say he doesn't strengthen and relies on lady luck, is just stupid, wrong and boring. I would hope in the summer he does manage to get Benezma, that would be outstanding, but the squad as it is, can compete for the title. They showed it last year when they were all fully fit.

[Niall_Quinn]

No, but the FA Cup is. You're the one arguing that a certain league placing is an achievement.

You need to go and watch Hamilton in the F1 today - never give up, never cruise because you don't think you can win. That's what winners do. Losers make excuses.

[Letters]

You need to go and watch Hamilton in the F1 today - never give up, never cruise because you don't think you can win. That's what winners do. Losers make excuses.

There was no debate about whether we could win. We kept going until it was mathematically impossible for us to win.
I'm defining winning as being champions, it's only you who regard 2nd place as winning. The comparison with F1 doesn't stack up, in that sport 2nd place is significant in terms of points which go towards the championship, in football it makes no difference, you're either champions or you're not.

The only other way we could win after the title was gone last year was to finish the job in the Cup and we did.

[Niall_Quinn]

There was no debate about whether we could win. We kept going until it was mathematically impossible for us to win.
I'm defining winning as being champions, it's only you who regard 2nd place as winning. The comparison with F1 doesn't stack up, in that sport 2nd place is significant in terms of points which go towards the championship, in football it makes no difference, you're either champions or you're not.

The only other way we could win after the title was gone last year was to finish the job in the Cup and we did.

Trying to turn your shitty excuses around and pin them on me? That won't fly. Nobody would race against Bolt if they all had your philosophy.

Winners fight until the end. Every winner knows that. The reason losers can't figure it out is because they are losers. And the distinction you try to make between one competitive sport and another, that's just hilarious. You'd do anything to apologise for the non-performance at Arsenal over the last decade. Money has been a central plank to your strategy. And then when we have a chance to finish above a team with the most money of all you claim there's no point because we couldn't finish above the chavs too. How convenient and what a crock of shit. A push to the line and the money argument would have been blown away.

Very true, money cheats make the challenge tougher, but not impossible - as we saw last season. But we all know we don't have a manager with a winner's mentality. Some of us admit it openly, others stay silent, other gush excuses and try to divert attention.

Your philosophy is what has to be purged from the club if we really want to see a sustained challenge at the top.

Sorry to be harsh but it's sickening to listen to you sometimes. Not just on football but mostly everything. If there's some sort of establishment declaration of conformity or a reason to blend into the herd then your are 100% behind it. And that just ends up riling those who strive for the opposite. Don't forget, without endeavour and ambition and non-conformity you can't actually have laziness, the mundane or the calming peace and security of subservience.

[Letters]

My philosophy is that winning, in the context of the league, is being Champions.
Once that was gone winning was the FA Cup, not the 2nd place trophy.

The money thing isn't an argument. I don't need to argue that money and success are correlated, look in the history books.
The counter argument is always to give a rare counter example. That is the level of logic that argues against smoking being bad for you by giving an example of so and so's granddad who smoked all his life and lived till 93. Yes, that can happen, but it's rare and isn't a counter-argument against the general point. Over the course of a season the sides who have pumped the most money in will tend to rise to the top. Now the financial constraints have come off we should be able to mix it with sides like Chelsea and City, I expect us to this year.

[Kano]

How is it nonsense? The three sides who have won the title since we last did are Utd and the two billionaire cheats. All sides with bigger resources than us for different reasons.

I regard it as cheating because it's not money they've earned through previous success, they haven't worked their way up (although I accept in today's game that is virtually impossible, I don't think we'll see anyone do a Wimbledon, or what Forest did). If we're guilty,of anything it's exploiting our fans but what is the alternative? Mid-table? And if we are doing that, we can only do so because of our fan base which comes from our previous success.

We've earned our place at the top table, City and Chelsea haven't.

I agree with a lot of your post but those two clubs have completely distorted the market and bought their way to titles, it's completely relevant to whether we'll win the league under Wenger again, or any manager actually.

'Earned' our place by ripping off the fans, are you really so comfortable with that sentiment? Of course it was all done via the free market, so perfectly 'legal' and above board of course but does that make it any less galling? That period of 'austerity' certainly wasn't one for the fans who wanted to continue seeing their club, quite the opposite in fact. As a club we can't talk about an honourable route to success, that no longer exists in the game. You either have to swallow, or ignore, the foul neoliberal bastardisation across the board, or not at all.

We are not Arsenal, shining a moral light in the game, fending off the dark forces. We are owned by two of them for Christ sake. Chelsea and City would probably pose the question the other way round, as in how else were they going to join the top table? If it hadn't of happened our league would be like Spain, France, Germany or Italy, dominated by a couple of clubs. There is an argument to be had for both sides because as usual nothing is clear cut but the common denominator is the immoral methods used to maximise profit.

[Letters]

I don't like the way we rip off our fans, part of the reason I don't go any more is the cost although there are other factors. But I don't see how else we could hope to compete with the billionaire-fueled sides, and we're only able to charge those ticket prices because of our huge fanbase which has come about through previous success.
I don't like a lot of things about the way modern football is and I agree that there's no other way in the modern game to join the top table but spare me the bollox about their 'achievements' and 'ambition'. Pumping money in till you succeed isn't an achievement, Chelsea showed it could be done, City have showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't need to argue that money and success are correlated, look in the history books.

Of course you don't - not when you class blowing a points advantage over one of these money clubs, "understandable". The convenience of it all is so neat it should be tied with a bow. The self fulfilling excuse.

Liverpool, Dortmund, Atletico and us last season if we'd have had a manager with balls - these are the tell-tale signs of a bullshit cover story.

Anyway, Arsene can make his own excuses. Not sure why you have to make them for him.

[Maestro]

It could even be argued that a major reason for Chelsea's success last season is Mourinho. As much as they have infinite money to buy players, they played some of the most mundane and turgid shit last season. Their coach knows how to tactically set them up "not to loose", period and that is one of their biggest assets. Yes they needed a playmaker and a striker ....went out and got them sharpish.

We needed a DM, CD and a top striker ...guess what we went into last season without any of those signings and money wasn't the issue, struggling until January when we bought Gabriel and brought back Coq from loan.

A lot of us have time for Wenger and what he's done for us, but we are not blinded as to his obvious shortcomings, which have and continue to handicap success right at the top. The excuses are gone for him and he is fully exposed now, so he really has to go for it now.

[Özim]

have you seen our recent signings? Thats surely the definition of strengthening the squad. In the last two years, he has signed, Ozil, Alexis, Gabriel and Cech. Thats three world class players and a good defender. He didn't even need to sign Cech (i wouldn't have said a keeper was number 1 priority this summer), but he became available so he has sent out Scesney on loan to get a world class keeper in.

You say he would have identified weaknesses and changed them if he was a good manager. He has. You don't sign Alexis, Ozil and Cech if you aren't trying to improve the squad. He has signed good back up players recently too in Debuchy, Chambers, Ospina and Gabriel. He didn't get lucky with making players world beaters either, he stuck by Ramsey and now he is one of our best players. He stuck with Giroud and was rewarded with 19 goals last year (and he was out for three months) Koscienly under his guidance has become one of the best defenders in the world, and Bellerin came in last season and was outstanding. Thats not luck, thats his management on the training ground to get those players to perform on the pitch. The only one i would say was due to luck was Coqulain and how he got his chance.

His tactics could be better, but if you look at the second half of the season, they were. The city game was the prime example, he got every decision spot on and we produced one of the best performances i have seen from us in years. The final he got it right again. We won big games in the second half because of his tactical decisions, the way he set the team up etc. Thats not luck. I think from january to the end of the season, we won the most points, yes its no good doing it for half a season, however one difference between that and the first half was the amount of injuries we suffered. I read somewhere that between the start and january, we lost over a 1000 days to players being injured, in the second half we lost just 700 as Shad Forsythe's methods started to work (they were never going to be an instant success). So we suffer less injuries and suddenly our form goes right up as key players all stayed fit. We lost Ozil, Giroud, Koscienly, Walcott, Ox, Ospina and Wilshere to long term injuries last year, all players who by end of the season were either first choice or pushing very close to being starters. This year, we also have a full pre season, only Sanchez isn't back training, but he's probably running marathons in Chile to get his fitness up.

So basically to sum up, your post is just the same old boring crap you just spout about Wenger without actually looking at what he is doing. He needs to now transfer the second half season form into the full season, and given we have less injuries, and a full pre season, there is no reason why we can't. However just to say he doesn't strengthen and relies on lady luck, is just stupid, wrong and boring. I would hope in the summer he does manage to get Benezma, that would be outstanding, but the squad as it is, can compete for the title. They showed it last year when they were all fully fit.

Yes some of the recent signings are great, can't help but think 1 or 2 of them were caused by immense pressure from the fans discontent (Ozil in particular), the way I see it he doesn't identify weaknesses and fix them, he signs players because he likes them not because we need them that's the problem and why we have a huge amount of AM and very few out and out strikers. Giroud without being disrespectful is nothing special, he misses key chances which are the difference between a team who can be champions and one that can't.

Injuries are down to his methods surely, we've had horrendous injuries for years and yet it's taken him the best part of 10 years to cotton on, either he's slow on the uptake or just oblivious to certain issues.

Where's the striker we've needed for about 3 years? Where's the DM we've needed since the beginning of time? Why do we only have one gameplan? Why did we get knocked out of the CL by Monaco last season if we're so good and Wenger is doing such a good job? How did we chuck away 2nd place if Wenger is so great? That's the questions I want to know the answers to, sadly I'm not expecting any answers as he never really seems to manage to give anyone the answers they want to hear these days.

[hobson's choice]

No

[GP]

No

http://i.imgur.com/xVRSThk.png

[fakeyank]

Where's the striker we've needed for about 3 years? Where's the DM we've needed since the beginning of time? Why do we only have one gameplan? Why did we get knocked out of the CL by Monaco last season if we're so good and Wenger is doing such a good job? How did we chuck away 2nd place if Wenger is so great? That's the questions I want to know the answers to, sadly I'm not expecting any answers as he never really seems to manage to give anyone the answers they want to hear these days.

But we have made progress.. :lol:

:rolleyes:

[Power n Glory]

I don't like the way we rip off our fans, part of the reason I don't go any more is the cost although there are other factors. But I don't see how else we could hope to compete with the billionaire-fueled sides, and we're only able to charge those ticket prices because of our huge fanbase which has come about through previous success.
I don't like a lot of things about the way modern football is and I agree that there's no other way in the modern game to join the top table but spare me the bollox about their 'achievements' and 'ambition'. Pumping money in till you succeed isn't an achievement, Chelsea showed it could be done, City have showed you can do it with any club if you pump enough money in for long enough.

You still haven't addressed the £50m Danny Fiszman invested so we could give key players a new contract and buy guys like Bergkamp, Platt and Wenger's early signings.

[Letters]

I don't know much about that, your first about it was the first I'd heard of it.
But I don't think we've bought success quite so blatantly as Chelsea and City have, neither team had any recent history of success before the billionaires took over.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/fiszman-was-real-reason-arsenal-did-so-well-says-adams-2319483.html

According to Tony Adams.


But I don't think we've bought success quite so blatantly as Chelsea and City have, neither team had any recent history of success before the billionaires took over.

But still bought. That £50m got us to the next level according to Adams. As the years went on and the market inflated by the established elite clubs like Man Utd, Real, AC and Inter, the entry fee for Europe's elite went from £50m to £250m.

[LDG]

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/fiszman-was-real-reason-arsenal-did-so-well-says-adams-2319483.html

According to Tony Adams.



But still bought. That £50m got us to the next level according to Adams. As the years went on and the market inflated by clubs like the established elite clubs like Man Utd, Real and the Serie A clubs, it went from £50m to £250m to build a team that could contend for the title and in Europe.

It's a very loose argument you have there.

City and Chelsea can afford to spend anything they want, and practically buy anyone they want if they chuck enough money at it. There is no barrier, save squad size and FFP (guffaw).

That 50m was to bridge a relatively small gap....not to finance limitless spending.

Of course its a leg up, but the comparison to City and Chelsea is very far fetched. That's a different league of doping.

[Power n Glory]

It's a very loose argument you have there.

City and Chelsea can afford to spend anything they want, and practically buy anyone they want if they chuck enough money at it. There is no barrier, save squad size and FFP (guffaw).

That 50m was to bridge a relatively small gap....not to finance limitless spending.

Of course its a leg up, but the comparison to City and Chelsea is very far fetched. That's a different league of doping.

It’s not at the Chelsea and City level but it’s still outside investment from money we didn’t earn through football. It also shows that there is another way to finance our transfer needs without ripping off the fans. I think it’s a piss take to have Board members that won’t dip into their own funds in fact.

[Marc Overmars]

Every type of business requires some form of investment to succeed, whether that be through self generated revenue or personal wealth. The difference is Chelsea and City have been able to operate to the point where it doesn't matter if a big money signing succeeds or not, because they can easily take a hit and move on to whoever they desire next until they get it right, thanks to wallet of one man.

[Power n Glory]

That’s a different argument to what Letter’s is saying. He regards outside investment as cheating if not earned from football and past success. Also, if we’re talking in terms of business, don’t other companies do what City and Chelsea do? For example, Microsoft can drop a ton of money into their Xbox department and invest heavily until it’s a success even if their console department make a loss or isn’t number 1 in the market. It’s murky territory. It just so happens Chelsea and City are owned ridiculously rich owners. This is why they need to tear up the rule book when it comes to football ownership and finances. The elite clubs that have had a monopoly on success are now only concerned because their status is under threat. The correlation between money and success has been evident for a long time and clubs like Real, Man Utd and Inter were already pushing the boundaries with ridiculous world record transfer fees. And funny enough, Real Madrid are still the holders of the most ridiculous fee ever paid by a club and they’re one of the established elites.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I still agree with the principle (not the execution) of FPP that a club cannot be allowed to spend excessively more than it generates on football transfers, how the club makes its money is up to the club as long as it's legal.

[Letters]

There is, or should be, a difference between business and sport.
I know that's idealistic these days, but it would be nice to think that the playing field should be as level as possible and may the best man/team win.

That advert with Henry saying the PL is the best in the world is laughable.
Right now I can tell you who the top 4 will be with a fair amount of certainty. It would be amazing if anyone other than Chelsea, City, ManYoo and Arsenal ended up in the top 4. I don't know the order, but it shouldn't be like that.
Everything about football these days is designed to keep the playing field so uneven that the only way any team can break into the top 4 is to 'do a Chelsea' or, now a City.

It's all very depressing, it's one of the reasons I'm less interested in it all these days. Who cares which billionaire buys the title next?

[Power n Glory]

I still agree with the principle (not the execution) of FPP that a club cannot be allowed to spend excessively more than it generates on football transfers, how the club makes its money is up to the club as long as it's legal.

I’m not even sure I agree with FFP because it stops the smaller clubs from growing and maintains the status quo. They need a need better ruling.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know it's a protective measure for small clubs like Portsmouth who have almost gone out of business due to reckless spending.

[Power n Glory]

And that’s apart of business(except for banking). Spend like an idiot and you go bust. That seems fair to me. But if they want to look out for the best interest of the smaller clubs and protect them, why not but a ban on transfers if they start to rack up too much debt?

[Kano]

There is, or should be, a difference between business and sport.
I know that's idealistic these days, but it would be nice to think that the playing field should be as level as possible and may the best man/team win.

That advert with Henry saying the PL is the best in the world is laughable.
Right now I can tell you who the top 4 will be with a fair amount of certainty. It would be amazing if anyone other than Chelsea, City, ManYoo and Arsenal ended up in the top 4. I don't know the order, but it shouldn't be like that.
Everything about football these days is designed to keep the playing field so uneven that the only way any team can break into the top 4 is to 'do a Chelsea' or, now a City.

It's all very depressing, it's one of the reasons I'm less interested in it all these days. Who cares which billionaire buys the title next?

Whilst I’ve made it clear the money coming in from those clubs sickens me, imagine being in Spain, Italy, Germany or France. We many know the top four but those guys can pick for certain who is going to win the league. I'd rather have the model we've had in place than any of the other 'top' leagues in Europe.

The gripe Arsenal fans hold is that we suffered not because of the influx of money but because the club decided to move stadium at a time when the whole financial landscape was changing. In fact, that was the reason they did it but we are the ones that lost the most because we lost the progression we had made to be fighting for the title each season for 6/7 years in a row, not something we'd ever done before. That has increased the hurt of watching other clubs investing billions, otherwise we wouldn't have cared too much. Similar to now, we know we can compete financially, so the billions of our rivals isn't so much of an issue anymore because we are no longer at a comparative disadvantage.

[Letters]

I don't know if there was any 'good' time to move stadium but I seriously doubt we'd have stayed in the top 4 were we still at Highbury and slipping out of the top 4 for any length of time could be a one way trip without serious external investment.

[Dein-machine]

I don't know if there was any 'good' time to move stadium but I seriously doubt we'd have stayed in the top 4 were we still at Highbury and slipping out of the top 4 for any length of time could be a one way trip without serious external investment.

I don't understand how the stadium has helped us get top 4 every year. It resulted in austerity measures meaning we've suffered on the pitch. Before we left Highbury we were miles ahead of Spurs & Liverpool when it came to the P.L. -
we have gone backwards with regards to those two teams in the past decade, Liverpool finishing above 2 years ago & a dodgy lasagne away from the Spuds nicking our 4th place trophy before that. Those two teams haven't moved Stadium, why have they got closer to us? If they can improve without a new stadium, why couldn't we?

[Letters]

Even with our austerity I still reckon we've had more money than we would have had if we'd stayed at Highbury.
Longer term moving stadium was definitely the right thing to do, both clubs you mention are doing the same, or trying to.

[Power n Glory]

We shouldn't have dropped out of the top 4 if we'd have stayed at Highbury. In fact, I'm questioning why we moved in the first place because it seems like the new sponsorship money has given us the real spending power. I thought the stadium was supposed to provide that.

[Kano]

I think our net spend per season was roughly the same before we started laying out for Ozil and Sanchez. Whether that figure includes wages etc I'm not sure but I think in the short term we could've stayed at Highbury but long term is what the move was all about. Timing wise we could suggest it could've happened at a later date but with all the council wranglings, perhaps it made sense to do it as soon we finally got full clearance.

Because our progression halted and other clubs overtook us, we clung onto moral high ground about our style of football and financial doping etc. If we had managed to stay on par then I really don't think the billionaire takeovers would've have bothered fans much at all. Only because it accentuated our stagnation did we become bitter about it.

To be fair I do think the stadium move facilitated the current deals because we were certainly more successful before the move, but less so financially. Have the stadium and all the infrastructure around it makes us a bigger player in terms of finance and also helps offer a security to the people paying us the money that we will be marketing the shit out of their brands in association with ourselves.

[Letters]

60,000 stadium + Club Level and Executive Boxes all the way around or 38,000 stadium with no Club Level and far fewer boxes.
I think it's pretty obvious why we moved and why Liverpool and Spurs are looking to.

[Power n Glory]

60,000 stadium + Club Level and Executive Boxes all the way around or 38,000 stadium with no Club Level and far fewer boxes.
I think it's pretty obvious why we moved and why Liverpool and Spurs are looking to.

Obvious to who? Ticket prices are still sky high and only after the sponsorship deals have we really started to spend on players, you've admitted that yourself. I'm we're able to squeeze more from the stadium capacity in the years to come because we were treading water before the new funds and couldn't even pay our players a competitive wage.

[Power n Glory]

60,000 stadium + Club Level and Executive Boxes all the way around or 38,000 stadium with no Club Level and far fewer boxes.
I think it's pretty obvious why we moved and why Liverpool and Spurs are looking to.

I mean shit, like club level seats and exec boxes mean anything to the average fan.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

We shouldn't have dropped out of the top 4 if we'd have stayed at Highbury. In fact, I'm questioning why we moved in the first place because it seems like the new sponsorship money has given us the real spending power. I thought the stadium was supposed to provide that.

They're inexplicably linked though.

By building and now possessing a new modern 60k stadium in the heart of London we can project a sense of "big-clubness" (can't think of a better word tbh) ..... something that's very attractive for sponsors like Emirates, Puma, Europcar etc to be associated with. All the real massive clubs have big stadiums (Utd, Bayern, Barca, Real etc) and we could never really join that club if we were still playing in small 38K capacity and increasingly run down stadium today.

It isn't a surprise to me that the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs are now clamouring over themselves to increase the capacity of their own places.

Building the Emirates was categorically the right call IMHO and I think history will prove it.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

To be fair we have been trying to increase our stadium/move for about 15 years.

We've just been absolutely shocking in doing so. At least you just went and got yours built.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And that’s apart of business(except for banking). Spend like an idiot and you go bust. That seems fair to me. But if they want to look out for the best interest of the smaller clubs and protect them, why not but a ban on transfers if they start to rack up too much debt?

It doesn't really matter what method you employ to regulate it to be fair

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

To be fair we have been trying to increase our stadium/move for about 15 years.

We've just been absolutely shocking in doing so. At least you just went and got yours built.

You make it sound like a walk in the park, first of all we had to deal with Islington council blocking it for years before it finally got agreed in 2001, then the stadium construction ground to a halt whilst we tried to re negotiate the terms of the repayments to the bank for construction costs which set us back a year.
Then we had to agree loaded deals with both Nike and Emirates where we were tied down to them for longer than we needed to secure the corporate sponsorship.

[Power n Glory]

They're inexplicably linked though.

By building and now possessing a new modern 60k stadium in the heart of London we can project a sense of "big-clubness" (can't think of a better word tbh) ..... something that's very attractive for sponsors like Emirates, Puma, Europcar etc to be associated with. All the real massive clubs have big stadiums (Utd, Bayern, Barca, Real etc) and we could never really join that club if we were still playing in small 38K capacity and increasingly run down stadium today.

It isn't a surprise to me that the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool and Spurs are now clamouring over themselves to increase the capacity of their own places.

Building the Emirates was categorically the right call IMHO and I think history will prove it.

Chelsea have a small and shit stadium and that hasn't stopped them from getting good deals. They just signed a massive deal with Yokahoma Rubber. Before our sponsorship deals we lagged behind loads of clubs with the sponsors with unimpressive stadiums. Liverpool and Spurs had better deals than us for years. We should have been able to attract better deals without the stadium. In fact, the money we needed up front for the stadium locked us in to long running bad sporship deals we had to run down before getting better deals.

I'm sure the Emirates is a good move for us but I'm yet to see the financial benefits. So far it looks like the good fortune has come from sporsors and TV rights and I believe those would have come anyway if we had kept on winning and playing our brand of football. I'm not convinced that we needed the move to house a bunch of c class, downgraded players and overpaid kids. There must be something more we can pull from the bigger capacity beside the perception of being a big club.

[Globalgunner]

How I wish Sir Norris had been alive today. We would have built an 80k stadium instead of a measly 60k and got TFL to move the tube stadium also.

Back to reality however, If we wish to be a BIG club we need to win BIG prizes. We have the brand and the worldwide status, but these are built on our success of a decade ago. If we were winning leagues and occasional CL. Maybe we like United could get someone to sponsor our toilet paper for 30m a year.

[Letters]

Obvious to who? Ticket prices are still sky high and only after the sponsorship deals have we really started to spend on players, you've admitted that yourself. I'm we're able to squeeze more from the stadium capacity in the years to come because we were treading water before the new funds and couldn't even pay our players a competitive wage.
It was always a longer term strategy, we're still making repayments far as I understand so out new financial clout has come about because of new sponsorship deals but soon the debt will be paid off and we will be in a far healthier position, financially, than any other English club. Utd have a mountain of debt, Chelsea and City are entirely dependant on benefactors which is not where you want to be longer term.

Couple of good articles I found about it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2014/09/20/latest-accounts-show-financial-times-have-changed-for-arsenal/2/


http://northlondonisred.co.uk/arsenals-stadium-debt-the-inside-track/

[Globalgunner]

From what I hear the debt will be paid off over 25 years, non negotiable at a rate of some 15-18M per year or thereabouts. We are only about 10 years into paying it so it wont be over anytime soon as you say. The debt has never been an issue no matter how much you try to make it into one.

Our revenue has increased greatly so thats good, but so has literally everyone elses too.

[Dein-machine]

I don't think anyone on here is suggesting that the Emirates move was not the right thing to do. We were able to let more fans watch the team, increase our revenue & for me the biggest benefit is providing a world class stadium for what was meant to be us becoming a dominant force in Europe. This all important is acquiring players who want to join a top club with the best facilities.
The issue is - "Has the stadium move provided us with any advantage in relation to 4th place". Before you address that, if you agree with my opening line, then look at what we're discussing. A stadium built to make us Europe's greatest & yet we are discussing if its helped us get 4th place in our domestic league.
For me, if the finances were low due to stadium repayments then it would suggest we have missed out on buying the required quality over the years, especially as Chelsea & City have been able to acquire whoever they liked over that period. This would suggest that the Stadium has not helped in our league plight. However, I can't remember the exact figures but I had read that we only needed something like 47,000 in the stadium every week to meet stadium repayments & the weekly stadium costs. That left the attendance balance + kit deal + retail income + TV money + player sales to spend on the squad.
This would suggest to me that even after the move (surmising that kit deal & TV money would be similar whether we moved or not) then the only negative financially was the 38,000 at Highbury minus the 13,000 attendance balance.
This surely is "small beer" in the scheme of things, especially as TV money started to rise rapidly over this time & ofcourse the Emirates did offer a bigger revenue than Highbury with stadium store & larger corporate hospitality facilities.
I think Wenger has had reasonable money to spend every year but realised it wasn't enough to compete with the limitless pot of Chelsea & then City, so decided to keep trying his own way of turning potential into quality. Unfortunately, buying proven quality will always result in better short term success.

[Dein-machine]

It was always a longer term strategy, we're still making repayments far as I understand so out new financial clout has come about because of new sponsorship deals but soon the debt will be paid off and we will be in a far healthier position, financially, than any other English club. Utd have a mountain of debt, Chelsea and City are entirely dependant on benefactors which is not where you want to be longer term.

Couple of good articles I found about it:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2014/09/20/latest-accounts-show-financial-times-have-changed-for-arsenal/2/


http://northlondonisred.co.uk/arsenals-stadium-debt-the-inside-track/

Where do you get this long term policy from. There was never a suggestion from Fitzman or Wenger ( during the Emirates announcements ) that we would face " 10 years of non-competing" whilst we paid off the stadium debt. We had just been in a Champions league final & the Emirates was supposed to cement us being one of Europe's top clubs.

[Letters]

The debt has never been an issue no matter how much you try to make it into one.
Read the articles I posted. :good:

[Özim]

Where do you get this long term policy from. There was never a suggestion from Fitzman or Wenger ( during the Emirates announcements ) that we would face " 10 years of non-competing" whilst we paid off the stadium debt. We had just been in a Champions league final & the Emirates was supposed to cement us being one of Europe's top clubs.

Indeed, quite the opposite, they clearly stated there was no point having a world class stadium without a world class team playing in it.

[Özim]

The truth is the stadium project suited Wener, he clearly loves bringing young players through (as he's recently stated in his criticism of Man U's current policy of apparently trying to buy success), that his preference and he will always choose that over signing top players which is a problem as generally the young players are never as good.

[Letters]

:lol: I wish I knew the man personally like you so clearly do.

[Özim]

:lol: I wish I knew the man personally like you so clearly do.

You don't need to know him personally to spot the obvious, he's criticised Man U about the players they are signing and how they use to rely on young players, has stated that's what he likes to do and has been focussing a lot on kinds for the best part of 10 years now (have you forgotten that failed kids team he said were 2% away from dominating and going to win everything under the sun).

He loves bringing in young players, it's the reason we have so many and have spent so much on them over the years. Yes most of us are rather bored with the youngsters now, but he never seems to get bored of signing them.

[Letters]

You don't need to know him personally to WUM and make stuff up.

I guess not.

[Özim]

I'm a WUM.

I know

[Power n Glory]

:lol: I wish I knew the man personally like you so clearly do.

stfu, Letters! :lol: Like you haven't said something similar.


Wenger probably does prefer to develop players than buy them off the shelf. I would have thought any manager would. Surely it's more satisfying to develop a Fabregas rather than buy one off the shelf. I never understand why spending £100m of a multi-billionaire's spare change is regarded as 'ambitious'. It's pretty much the exact opposite of ambitious, it's taking the short-cut and the easy option.

[Globalgunner]

For someone who doesnt know Arsene you sure as hell are fixated with devotion to him. Yes the stadium may have hindered our finances but only in relation to Chelsea and the 2 Manc clubs. In rrelation to everyone else we still had greater spending power. In fact from the minute we opened the stadium in 2006 we were better of in overall revenue compared to the prior year at Highbury. So yes the stadium move was desirable and few would belittle the decision. The only part most take exception to is your exaggerating the effect that it stopped us buying the quality we need. Wenger chose to keep buying kids, no one forced him to. He does this because it keeps buying him time. Kids will wait 4-5 years before lamenting about a lack of silverware, especially when they make the grade quality wise. Buying proven players at prime age 25-27 puts the manager under pressure because they will start looking elsewhere after only 2 seasons. It is no coincidence that Cesc and RVP gave up on the Wenger project when they did. Like i said earlier, Wengers projects have no term date. When it goes belly up. He simply presses the reset buttton and starts all over again. The quality players however will keep jumping ship with each failed cycle. Just watch end of this season what comes from the Ozil and Sanchez camps when we lift the 3rd or 4th place trophy and possibly the Letters cup for a 3rd time running.

[Dein-machine]

Where do you get this long term policy from. There was never a suggestion from Fitzman or Wenger ( during the Emirates announcements ) that we would face " 10 years of non-competing" whilst we paid off the stadium debt. We had just been in a Champions league final & the Emirates was supposed to cement us being one of Europe's top clubs.

Letters - please stop you're monthly running battle with Zim on who' the worst wummer & answer the above. You very good at responding to posts not aimed at you but a bit "choosey" on those that are. Maybe I'm wrong, you may know something I & others don't about the "long term" policy which would be interesting for us all to here.

[Dein-machine]

For someone who doesnt know Arsene you sure as hell are fixated with devotion to him. Yes the stadium may have hindered our finances but only in relation to Chelsea and the 2 Manc clubs. In rrelation to everyone else we still had greater spending power. In fact from the minute we opened the stadium in 2006 we were better of in overall revenue compared to the prior year at Highbury. So yes the stadium move was desirable and few would belittle the decision. The only part most take exception to is your exaggerating the effect that it stopped us buying the quality we need. Wenger chose to keep buying kids, no one forced him to. He does this because it keeps buying him time. Kids will wait 4-5 years before lamenting about a lack of silverware, especially when they make the grade quality wise. Buying proven players at prime age 25-27 puts the manager under pressure because they will start looking elsewhere after only 2 seasons. It is no coincidence that Cesc and RVP gave up on the Wenger project when they did. Like i said earlier, Wengers projects have no term date. When it goes belly up. He simply presses the reset buttton and starts all over again. The quality players however will keep jumping ship with each failed cycle. Just watch end of this season what comes from the Ozil and Sanchez camps when we lift the 3rd or 4th place trophy and possibly the Letters cup for a 3rd time running.

:gp: - Seroiusly, the likes of Letter, Dougie & Herbie included - can any of us really not see that Global has summed it all up. Does anyone need Sanchez & Ozil to leave before they see the light?

[Kano]

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/arsenal-money-changes-everything.html

This guy has been on top of things for years and as he sums up at the end, there has always been more money available than Wenger has been willing to use. Of course we couldn't spend like we can now when we moved but we benefited from the move financially and increased the coffers - unfortunately Wenger was also very idealistic about the kids project which was just as damaging as the stadium move in the short term. As PHW said himself before the move "We are taking on a large financial debt, but the extra revenue we are generating from the stadium will more than cover that debt." But at the same time we had to move stadium and we had to do it when we got the green light because you don't hang around once you get planning permission.

[Letters]

I know

It's good the level of debate is so higg on here :lol:


I did start it that time, to be fair :tiphat:

[Letters]

stfu, Letters! :lol: Like you haven't said something similar.

Note the probably. And it would be obvious to anyone that it's more satisfying to develop a player than to buy the finished product, where's the skill in that?
I don't repeatedly pontificate about what Wenger thinks and feels with no other basis than my little vendetta against the man (a vendetta which, frankly, makes no sense at all)

[Letters]

Letters - please stop you're monthly running battle with Zim on who' the worst wummer & answer the above. You very good at responding to posts not aimed at you but a bit "choosey" on those that are. Maybe I'm wrong, you may know something I & others don't about the "long term" policy which would be interesting for us all to here.

Any building project of that scale is obviously, with the initial level of debt it involves, going to yield results longer term.
I'm sure back in the day they weren't shouting from the rooftops that we would be somewhat restricted financially in the short term but it should have been obvious.
Long term it was clearly the right thing to do.

[PGFC]

To the OP, yes, probably, but it still won't make him popular on GW, gosh the sleep that man must lose with that hanging over him.

[Power n Glory]

Note the probably. And it would be obvious to anyone that it's more satisfying to develop a player than to buy the finished product, where's the skill in that?
I don't repeatedly pontificate about what Wenger thinks and feels with no other basis than my little vendetta against the man (a vendetta which, frankly, makes no sense at all)

Thin. You're splitting hairs over language but what you're saying about Wenger's preference for developing youth over established talent isn't miles away from Zim's argument.

Edit: Also, aren't you also presuming what Wenger feels in that post?

[Power n Glory]

http://swissramble.blogspot.co.uk/2014/09/arsenal-money-changes-everything.html

This guy has been on top of things for years and as he sums up at the end, there has always been more money available than Wenger has been willing to use. Of course we couldn't spend like we can now when we moved but we benefited from the move financially and increased the coffers - unfortunately Wenger was also very idealistic about the kids project which was just as damaging as the stadium move in the short term. As PHW said himself before the move "We are taking on a large financial debt, but the extra revenue we are generating from the stadium will more than cover that debt." But at the same time we had to move stadium and we had to do it when we got the green light because you don't hang around once you get planning permission.

We agree on that. We haven't made the most of our resources and Wenger has used Chelsea, City and the stadium to excuse the lack of spending. A major gripe I have with him is the way he defended a ticket price hike and made out as if it were necessary to compete with our rivals. That was totally false.

[Dein-machine]

Any building project of that scale is obviously, with the initial level of debt it involves, going to yield results longer term.
I'm sure back in the day they weren't shouting from the rooftops that we would be somewhat restricted financially in the short term but it should have been obvious.
Long term it was clearly the right thing to do.

It is also obvious that we would have taken solid financial advice before the Emirates move to know that the project was achievable whilst allowing us to continue to compete at the top level. This would have included building in a figure each year to acquire top class players in order to compete. This Wenger didn't do.
Instead he used the new stadium plus the new Chelsea sugar daddy as his excuse to become totally non-competitive whilst charging our fans the highest ticket prices in Europe. Knowing that he is bullet-proof at the club means he was under no pressure, he & the shareholders were happy to see the clubs wealth growing, continued top 4 finish with absolutely no real intention of becoming the great force in Europe that the Emirates dream was sold on.
When did he finally go & buy a world class player - after he was booed off the pitch at home to Villa & fans were threatening him personally. Anyone making a signing after the season has started hasn't done his job in the summer & is panic buying.

[Maestro]

When did he finally go & buy a world class player - after he was booed off the pitch at home to Villa & fans were threatening him personally. Anyone making a signing after the season has started hasn't done his job in the summer & is panic buying.

This is how we luckily ended up with Ozil, the baying mob was at the door and Wenger had to act pronto.

[Dein-machine]

This is how we luckily ended up with Ozil, the baying mob was at the door and Wenger had to act pronto.

yep - if we'd beaten Villa would we have signed Ozil? - what a way to manage a team.

[Heisenberg]

If we'd beaten Villa, I expect things would have turned out almost exactly the same. We played a couple more games, which we played significantly better in and won, before there were any stories about Özil.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If we'd beaten Villa, I expect things would have turned out almost exactly the same. We played a couple more games, which we played significantly better in and won, before there were any stories about Özil.

Where's my methamphetamine you bastard?

[Letters]

:haha: at the idea that Wenger spent £40m on a player because he was booed off in a game we lost

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Surely the delay in spuds selling monkey boy played a factor in how late in the window we signed ozil. In fact, did Daniel levy not make some kind of comment in that regard?

[Kano]

A
:haha: at the idea that Wenger spent £40m on a player because he was booed off in a game we lost

I agree that is nonsense, a convenient theory to support a mostly logical larger argument. That a man who is criticised for refusing to spend and who publicly makes it known he is frugal would go out and spend that amount of money over fan reaction is a stretch too far. He is famously stubborn and has been around long enough to know that a few victories would've stopped the boos. There was no mutiny about to happen with the fans. We'd never have the guts to do it en-masse. A lot of things came together at the right time to buy Ozil, who is the perfect Wenger style player he would always look to buy

Away from this argument though I am placing huge importance in this weekends game. We can talk about personnel, money and tactics all we want but self belief is absolutely key. This team have to know they can beat Chelsea under Wenger. If we want to stand any chance of competing for the title, that duck has to be broken and the sooner the better. Chelsea will be the team to be beat again this season and unless Wenger figures that one out after all these years, then we can start the season as well as we want but it won't mean much if we can't directly damage our rivals.

[Niall_Quinn]

Surely the delay in spuds selling monkey boy played a factor in how late in the window we signed ozil. In fact, did Daniel levy not make some kind of comment in that regard?

Yep. The twat went to the media claiming he was trying to scupper the Ozil (or Benzema or Di Maria, because we didn't know for sure at that point) deal. IIRC there were further stories about him flying into a rage when we got the deal done. He's small time personified.

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Yep. The twat went to the media claiming he was trying to scupper the Ozil (or Benzema or Di Maria, because we didn't know for sure at that point) deal. IIRC there were further stories about him flying into a rage when we got the deal done. He's small time personified.http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/transfers/transfer-news-tottenham-chairman-daniel-levy-attempted-to-block-arsenal-move-for-mesut-ozil-after-feeling-real-madrid-betrayed-him-8797601.html

[Dein-machine]

A

I agree that is nonsense, a convenient theory to support a mostly logical larger argument. That a man who is criticised for refusing to spend and who publicly makes it known he is frugal would go out and spend that amount of money over fan reaction is a stretch too far. He is famously stubborn and has been around long enough to know that a few victories would've stopped the boos. There was no mutiny about to happen with the fans. We'd never have the guts to do it en-masse. A lot of things came together at the right time to buy Ozil, who is the perfect Wenger style player he would always look to buy

Away from this argument though I am placing huge importance in this weekends game. We can talk about personnel, money and tactics all we want but self belief is absolutely key. This team have to know they can beat Chelsea under Wenger. If we want to stand any chance of competing for the title, that duck has to be broken and the sooner the better. Chelsea will be the team to be beat again this season and unless Wenger figures that one out after all these years, then we can start the season as well as we want but it won't mean much if we can't directly damage our rivals.

I would agree with you if we were talking about a manager who regularly spent big money on quality players but the fact Wenger never paid out that kind of money suggests a panic buy to me.

[Dein-machine]

:haha: at the idea that Wenger spent £40m on a player because he was booed off in a game we lost

:haha: yeh what a crazy idea - a bit like the £28 mill he spent on 5 players in 2 days after the 8-2 Utd defeat - suppose that wasn't panic buying either was it. Must be a coincidence these happened after him being murdered by the press & Atsenal fans.

[Letters]

Did he panic the year after too when he bought Sanchez? With the new financial deals the money was there so he started spending it :shrug:

[Dein-machine]

Did he panic the year after too when he bought Sanchez? With the new financial deals the money was there so he started spending it :shrug:

No - he hadn't just been humiliated days before he bought Sanchez.

[Letters]

But he hates spending money :unsure:
EDIT: And is too stubborn to listen to anyone, especially the fans.


Unless it suits people's agenda I guess :shrug:

[Dein-machine]

But he hates spending money :unsure:
EDIT: And is too stubborn to listen to anyone, especially the fans.


Unless it suits people's agenda I guess :shrug:

We know he hates spending money - we've had a decade of not spending money ( we did have ) on the quality required to compete - that is why £40 mill on Ozil was so unlike him & therefore smacks of desperation after being booed off at the Emirates.
The £28 mill on 5 players in 2 days after the Utd defeat was gross mismanagement. A chairman with balls would have told him to fuck off & suggested that in future if he didn't strengthen his squad during pre-season which resulted in 8-2 defeats then he would be out of a job. Even you surely have to agree this was desperation.
Even worse than this unbelievable fuck up was the fact he has not learnt from this. Still fucks about every summer, waiting for these players to fall into his lap, playing childish games with the selling club over a few million quid. Even let slip that we missed out on Hazard by " a few million" - another one Arsene, he seems to boast about the players his missed out on.

[Letters]

So why did he continue to spend money the following year? :shrug:

[LDG]

Because he realised that it makes us better by spending money but now he's decided not to spend this year because he thinks he's amazing again now and because we won two cups but he's still shit because he's shit and a cunt.

[Letters]

:lol:



...not sure if serious :unsure:

[GP]

He's also French and earns 8 million a year

[Dein-machine]

So why did he continue to spend money the following year? :shrug:

His spent £11 mill this year on a goalkeeper - do you think that's enough?
I'm wondering if our best bet long term is to get beaten by West Ham on the opening day - we'll have Benzema, Bale & Messi by the following Wednesday.

[Syn]

Because he realised that it makes us better by spending money but now he's decided not to spend this year because he thinks he's amazing again now and because we won two cups but he's still shit because he's shit and a cunt.

That's actually succinctly done. Letters read this and stop replying in AFC debate. Would save us all a few yawns.

[LDG]

In all seriousness, I don't think he can win us the league again.

I have no issue with the team per say. I think he's built good enough teams in the last 10 years that were capable of winning the league. I just don't think he reacts during games, or during transfer windows in a decisive way. He's always opted (under, I believe, idealistic tendencies) to trust in his players, expecting them to do the work for him.

Couple that with his failure most years to target the obvious areas of weakness in the squad, and you have the reason why we haven't won the thing.

Money obviously plays its part, but we never really needed massive amounts to bolster what were good teams anyway...we just needed investment to sustain our challenge and add depth to areas of the squad that needed it.

We can't win it again with Wenger as he'll do the same again. I'd love to be proved wrong, but history says not.....

In any case. We have a great team this year....one of the best I've seen for ages, so reason to be cheerful. Hopefully we'll have a good year, and really push on....

[Letters]

That's actually succinctly done. Letters read this and stop replying in AFC debate. Would save us all a few yawns.

He loses points for neglecting to mention he's French

[dostoy]

What do you think the chances of Arsenal FC winning the league now ?

Its the same as what it was in July.

No chance.

I hope I am wrong.

[Bumble]

We wont win the league this season. We will finish 3rd quite comfortably.

[Injury Time]

We wont win the league this season. We will finish 3rd quite comfortably.

3rd? Too much ambition little bit, 4th only one worth winning (extra income of qualifier march) :trophy:

1st? No.

[Letters]

IMO any of the top 4 from last season have a chance.
It's way too early to conclude anything about how this season will pan out, only City are looking any good and things change very quickly.
I think we'll be top 3, if we're in the mix with 10 games to go we've got a chance.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have no chance at all unless our closest rivals have a relatively poor season. It will be up to them, not us, whether we can compete.

If Utd get their act together they'll get more points than we do in the top 4 match-ups and we'll throw away points when we play them, as usual. So it will be a close race with them.

If the chavs or gypos muster average seasons by their standards they'll be beyond reach by Christmas. If they have below average seasons and we are scrapping to qualify for the top 4 we'll do okay up until the point qualification is secured and then we'll collapse. If the race for qualification goes to the last few games we might get closer to the chavs than we did last year. But if Liverpool and the spuds are fucking up behind us and we secure 4th spot fairly early then we'll settle for that and finish a good distance behind our rivals.

Everything could change if one of our strikers or press-ganged strikers can find form over a protracted stretch, like RvC did in his final season with us. That's a possibility for Alexis, he'll keep trying but it will be down to Wenger and how he sets out the teams and tactics. Alexis did amazingly well last year, it will be easier for him in some respects this year but also tougher by the fact opposition managers and defenders will know what to expect.

No realistic chance of Giroud or Walcott stepping up, Walcott probably won't get enough games anyway. Welbeck will probably play a bit part too so don't expect the goals to come from him.

If Coquelin gets injured then all bets are off and we'll have a hell of a scrap on our hands to get the 4th place trophy.

[Gooner23]

Even without signing any more players it's the best squad we've had for a long time. We really should be challenging for the league this year, but I just don't think Wenger has it in him to get the best out of his players over the course of a whole season. My view hasn't changed over the last couple of years, we won't win it again with him in charge.

[Özim]

Our chances of winning the league are precisely zero, even when we have had the chance when other teams have been poor we've blown it, this season Man City are looking good and Chelsea will no doubt be back in the reckoning soon enough, we don't have enough quality to match them, not in terms of goalscoring threats or even defensive strength IMO.

In addition we don't have a manager tactically good or motivational enough to get that bit extra out of the squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

Our chances of winning the league are precisely zero, even when we have had the chance when other teams have been poor we've blown it, this season Man City are looking good and Chelsea will no doubt be back in the reckoning soon enough, we don't have enough quality to match them, not in terms of goalscoring threats or even defensive strength IMO.

In addition we don't have a manager tactically good or motivational enough to get that bit extra out of the squad.

I think we do have enough quality to match them, in most cases. Obviously we have an issue in a couple of key areas and these will certainly come home to roost as they season develops. But there's enough quality and cover elsewhere to give anyone a run for their money.

But as you say, the manager. A massive handicap we have to carry into every game. Over 38 games it's unlikely an impediment that significant can be overcome on enough occasions to get the points required to win a title. All the idiot had to do was dig in that cash mountain and bring in another couple of players, but as the last 10 years show Wenger knows best.

[Kano]

Can we win the league this season? No. That will not happen. The manager is one reason and an extension of that is of course the personnel we have in the squad. Too many players still learning roles, playing out of position leaving it too unbalanced to be used effectively. There is a reason why this same squad consistently fail to beat the better teams in the league and Europe and there is not a single sign that has changed. What we will continue to do is beat the lesser teams, which will be enough to position us in the top four. We just don't have the tools to achieve anything more than that and that is a damning indictment of how poorly Wenger has chosen the players with so much resources available to him. At least 3/4 players in our 'best' first eleven have to changed.

[selassie]

From what I've seen of us so far this season we will be scrapping for top 4, we're miles away from looking like a title challenger and unrecognisable from the team that finished last season so strongly. We look a bit of a mess TBH. I personally don't think we will even come close to winning a title again under Wenger, he builds unbalanced squads, lots of guile not enough guts. This season will be a re-run of previous seasons, why should it be any different? He's not addressed any of the problem areas in the team.

[Heisenberg]

No. He's unelectable. We should appoint Liz Kendall instead.

[Letters]

From what I've seen of us so far this season we will be scrapping for top 4.
Would you say the same from what you've seen of Chelsea so far this season?
If not, why not?

[Power n Glory]

Would you say the same from what you've seen of Chelsea so far this season?
If not, why not?

I don't know what world you live in but it should be obvious why not.

[Globalgunner]

Would you say the same from what you've seen of Chelsea so far this season?
If not, why not?

What does the question have to do with Chelsea? and can you kindly refrain from mentioning them in everyone of your posts. You must be that person Mourinho says is obsessed with Chelsea.

[Letters]

Anyone want to try answering the question?

[selassie]

Would you say the same from what you've seen of Chelsea so far this season?
If not, why not?

Yes, but Chelsea are Champions, they know how to win titles. Chelsea have their own problems this season but they still strengthened what was an already very strong squad, a title winning squad.

[Letters]

Ok, but you said 'from what you've seen so far this season'.
If that's what you're judging us on than judge other teams in the same way. And on that basis City are champions elect, us and Chelsea are nowhere.
Past history is relevant of course but our past history shows we're capable of much better than we've seen so far this season, as are Chelsea.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Yes, but Chelsea are Champions, they know how to win titles. Chelsea have their own problems this season but they still strengthened what was an already very strong squad, a title winning squad.

Did they though? They signed Falcao, who has scored 2 goals in a year. I suppose Pedro is strengthening, but while i think he is a very good player, i can see him being like Di Maria. They sold a world class keeper and replaced him with an average one, and signed a defender no one has heard off, and didnt even register him in their champions league squad.

and they have fabregas in midfield. A fraud who goes missing from christmas. WHile they have a very good squad, i wouldnt say they have strengthened.

[selassie]

Did they though? They signed Falcao, who has scored 2 goals in a year. I suppose Pedro is strengthening, but while i think he is a very good player, i can see him being like Di Maria. They sold a world class keeper and replaced him with an average one, and signed a defender no one has heard off, and didnt even register him in their champions league squad.

and they have fabregas in midfield. A fraud who goes missing from christmas. WHile they have a very good squad, i wouldnt say they have strengthened.

Yes they did, they signed a player to rectify their weakest position in their team. Sure Falcao was a risk but that is besides the point, they don't have a problem scoring goals.

Why are we even talking about Chelsea? We have it all to prove not them!

[selassie]

Ok, but you said 'from what you've seen so far this season'.
If that's what you're judging us on than judge other teams in the same way. And on that basis City are champions elect, us and Chelsea are nowhere.
Past history is relevant of course but our past history shows we're capable of much better than we've seen so far this season, as are Chelsea.

I am judging us on past history and past history tells us Man City and Chelsea challenge for titles and we don't. I am more than happy to be proved wrong, I am desperate for us to win the title again but I really don't see how we can win it if we don't improve our team, it's honestly ridiculous that Wenger thinks otherwise, what is he seeing that everybody else doesn't appear to see?

[Letters]

OK, That is fair enough but that's not what you said.

IMO we're pretty much good enough to challenge, Cech is a good upgrade at the back but we should have signed a proper striker. There should be plenty of goals in this side though, Giroud won't win the league but with people like Sanchez, Ozil and Ramsey chipping in the goal drought we've seen so far shouldn't continue. Chelsea only scored a couple more than us last year in the league.

Last year we lost it before we got going. If we keep in touch this year I think we have a chance. I think any of last year's top 4 are credible contenders.

[selassie]

OK, That is fair enough but that's not what you said.

IMO we're pretty much good enough to challenge, Cech is a good upgrade at the back but we should have signed a proper striker. There should be plenty of goals in this side though, Giroud won't win the league but with people like Sanchez, Ozil and Ramsey chipping in the goal drought we've seen so far shouldn't continue. Chelsea only scored a couple more than us last year in the league.

Last year we lost it before we got going. If we keep in touch this year I think we have a chance. I think any of last year's top 4 are credible contenders.

I suppose what I was trying to say is it looks like normal service has been resumed. I personally don't think we're a good enough team to have a shakey start and expect to challenge for the title from behind whereas a team like Chelsea or City to a lesser extent are better equipped for title challenges. We're already a bit behind.

Cech is a great signing I agree, also agree about Sanchez and to a lesser extent Ramsey...only due to him being played out of position. The jury is still out on whether Ozil can provide a healthy return of goals.

[Letters]

I think it depends how shaky. Last season was a fiasco at the start. We were something like 15 points behind after 12 games, we were out of it before we started.
This year we have to stay in touch, if we do then given our run in I think we have a chance.

[Dein-machine]

I suppose what I was trying to say is it looks like normal service has been resumed. I personally don't think we're a good enough team to have a shakey start and expect to challenge for the title from behind whereas a team like Chelsea or City to a lesser extent are better equipped for title challenges. We're already a bit behind.

Cech is a great signing I agree, also agree about Sanchez and to a lesser extent Ramsey...only due to him being played out of position. The jury is still out on whether Ozil can provide a healthy return of goals.

Ozil wasn't bought to provide a healthy return of goals - he was bought to provide a healthy return of assists. That is where our problem lies. Ozil can provide as many assists as you like but only if he has the correct movement up top. We don't have a clever striker able to make the right moves & in the case of Giroud, we have a statue. Then, what if Ozil does chip in with 10 assists per game - we don't have a proven finisher to take these chances. Ozil may well have been part of Arsene's jigsaw but the guy is unwilling to put the right pieces in place to finish the jigsaw, mainly because other people are telling him what pieces he needs but he won't listen because ALL the other jigsaw experts are wrong.

[milla]

Ozil wasn't bought to provide a healthy return of goals - he was bought to provide a healthy return of assists. That is where our problem lies. Ozil can provide as many assists as you like but only if he has the correct movement up top. We don't have a clever striker able to make the right moves & in the case of Giroud, we have a statue. Then, what if Ozil does chip in with 10 assists per game - we don't have a proven finisher to take these chances. Ozil may well have been part of Arsene's jigsaw but the guy is unwilling to put the right pieces in place to finish the jigsaw, mainly because other people are telling him what pieces he needs but he won't listen because ALL the other jigsaw experts are wrong.

:gp:

I quite understand there are not many WC CF around. We at least should try to sign another goal scoring wide forward to compliment current setup, Giroud is great at holding the ball inside the penalty anyway. If we could have another player in a caliber of Sanchez on the right wing, we would be scoring truck load of goals (Griezmann, Reus to name a few). We have great playmakers in Ozil and Cazorla (and decent defenders at the back) but Wengcunt refuse to complete the team up front. :coffee:

[selassie]

Ozil wasn't bought to provide a healthy return of goals - he was bought to provide a healthy return of assists. That is where our problem lies. Ozil can provide as many assists as you like but only if he has the correct movement up top. We don't have a clever striker able to make the right moves & in the case of Giroud, we have a statue. Then, what if Ozil does chip in with 10 assists per game - we don't have a proven finisher to take these chances. Ozil may well have been part of Arsene's jigsaw but the guy is unwilling to put the right pieces in place to finish the jigsaw, mainly because other people are telling him what pieces he needs but he won't listen because ALL the other jigsaw experts are wrong.

I agree, though I think he has it in him to score more, he's actually quite a good finisher.

[Özim]

Ozil is a great creator, just look at his record at Real, but he's not a ruthless finisher and won't ever be IMO, as mentioned above without someone to put away the chances he creates it's kinds pointless.

He's also much better in a team with pace as he's great at those breakaway counters, one of the best, we never utilise the guy to his maximum.