View Full Version : Zagreb 2 - Arsenal 1 Match Reaction Thread
Munchies
16-09-2015, 09:14 PM
:lol:
adzzzbatch
16-09-2015, 09:17 PM
Pathetic. (Arsenal, not the match reaction thread)
Munchies
16-09-2015, 09:17 PM
To quote FakeYank's sig again
Arsene Wenger, paid £8m a year to sit on his fuckin arse
---
Mikel Arteta's game by numbers:
0 chances created
0 tackles won
0 aerial duels won
0 shots
0 crosses
topgun
16-09-2015, 09:20 PM
No surprise really,these pathetic performances are an annual thing,now Wenger please f--k --f.
Power n Glory
16-09-2015, 09:20 PM
About time someone created a thread.
4 goals in 3 games for Theo Walcott. :coffee:
Poor showing and the manager is at fault for the team selection. All the players he selected let him down big time. Giroud, Gibbs, Debuchy, Arteta...all played a massive part in costing us. But it's down to Wenger for his silly selection.
Marc Overmars
16-09-2015, 09:26 PM
And so begins another pointless jolly up for us in this competition.
Oh well.
adzzzbatch
16-09-2015, 09:29 PM
And so begins another pointless jolly up for us in this competition.
Oh well.
Although this time I don't think we'll make it out of the group.
Awful result a decent team would have put them to the sword, we're massively overrated.
Manager getting his comeuppance for his incompetence and neglect of the team at last.
Yeah we'll get to the last 16 and get beaten again as usual, we've got nowhere to go with him in charge, joke of a manager these days.
Although this time I don't think we'll make it out of the group.
Honestly. Does anyone really care any more? THIS is the legacy of a manager, a team that has made no substantive progress for 10 years. Fans of other teams regard us as spoilt because they would love the relative success that we enjoy, but tell me - prize money aside is the sprinter who came 4th in the 100m final really any more inspiring to sports fans than the athlete who finishes in last place?:
Awful result a decent team would have put them to the sword, we're massively overrated.
Manager getting his comeuppance for his incompetence and neglect of the team at last.
Yeah we'll get to the last 16 and get beaten again as usual, we've got nowhere to go with him in charge.
Nice to see you still on here, my friend!
Marc Overmars
16-09-2015, 09:37 PM
Although this time I don't think we'll make it out of the group.
It's us. We'll find a way to worm our way out.
We'll probably end up taking 4 points off Bayern or something.
Nice to see you still on here, my friend!
Thanks IBK :)
It's us. We'll find a way to worm our way out.
We'll probably end up taking 4 points off Bayern or something.
Let's be honest other than Bayern the teams in this group are rubbish, we'll come 2nd as we should, but we've shown we're not serious challengers for any of the big prizes, we never are.
Munchies
16-09-2015, 09:45 PM
'What is Gibbs doing at the near post' - vid
https://twitter.com/Memz_Dogi/status/644263627101458432
:haha: :haha: :haha:
Honestly. Does anyone really care any more? THIS is the legacy of a manager, a team that has made no substantive progress for 10 years. Fans of other teams regard us as spoilt because they would love the relative success that we enjoy, but tell me - prize money aside is the sprinter who came 4th in the 100m final really any more inspiring to sports fans than the athlete who finishes in last place?:
It felt like a Capital One Cup game from the beginning. What happens doesn't really matter anymore. The only two games I am sadistically looking forward to are the Bayern games, just for the occasion. Just keep Ozil away from the penalty spot.
'What is Gibbs doing at the near post' - vid
https://twitter.com/Memz_Dogi/status/644263627101458432
:haha: :haha: :haha:
More to the point - look how big that guy's bird's :titsup: are!
Niall_Quinn
16-09-2015, 09:51 PM
M E H !
It felt like a Capital One Cup game from the beginning. What happens doesn't really matter anymore. The only two games I sadistically looking forward to are the Bayern games, just for the occasion. Just keep Ozil away from the penalty spot.
Just for the occasion says it all. I don't know any Gooners who are anything other than apologetic about this team's potential to drop points in every single game we play these days. Sad stuff.
M E H !
Let's wait until the end of Wenger's next contract before judging his performance.
Power n Glory
16-09-2015, 10:00 PM
Even though this result isn't the end of the world...it's the first game (Letters will agree here) but this is the sort of thing that shows Wenger just can't help himself. Just as we start to build confidence off the back of two wins, just as we start creating chances and maybe have an alternative option up front, just as we head into an important game at the Bridge, he pulls this stunt. :lol: Kills our momentum and we go into that game with our heads down feeling shaky and nervy and Chelsea will feel more confident after their win at home and know we've lost. I don't know what's wrong him. I really don't.
Let's wait until the end of Wenger's next contract before judging his performance.
:lol:
Penguin
16-09-2015, 10:13 PM
Tbf Wenger had to rotate a bit with the busy schedule ahead. Does he really have to do all six at the same time though? In the opening Champions league game?
Keepers don't even need a rest. Give Ospina the two domestic cups, don't fuck around in the Champions league.
Madness.
I think all of the squadies let themselves down. Gibbs was actually having a decent game but he closed his eyes and ducked out of the header for the second. The rest of them were terrible.
Even though this result isn't the end of the world...it's the first game (Letters will agree here) but this is the sort of thing that shows Wenger just can't help himself. Just as we start to build confidence off the back of two wins, just as we start creating chances and maybe have an alternative option up front, just as we head into an important game at the Bridge, he pulls this stunt. :lol: Kills our momentum and we go into that game with our heads down feeling shaky and nervy and Chelsea will feel more confident after their win at home and know we've lost. I don't know what's wrong him. I really don't.
Its not even the result that the issue, mate - its once again being reminded in no uncertain terms of the fundamental/irremediable flaws in Wenger's team; philosophy and tactical approach. And you said it - losing at Stamford Bridge is not a mathematical certainty, but the truth is that it was a distinct possibilty, maybe even a probability, even at 7.45 this evening!
Letters
16-09-2015, 10:34 PM
Awful result a decent team would have put them to the sword, we're massively overrated.
Not by you.
Can't believe Wenger sold "og" to Zagreb though :doh:
Not by you.
Can't believe Wenger sold "og" to Zagreb though :doh:
No not by me and rightly so because as has been shown we always fall short, we're not capable of challenging for the big prizes, we neither have the quality nor the ambition to bring the quality in, it's never going to change until we get a manager who is willing to put his money where his mouth is.
Letters
16-09-2015, 10:58 PM
I didn't see the game as it was on at 2:45am or some silly hour here. It was a bad result but, given it's a mini-league, not a disaster. I think we'll quality from the group.
Nice WUMming above but what I said (and it's obviously true) is that Wenger should be judged at the end of the season. That's true of any manager at any club in any season.
At the end of last season we finished 3rd and won the Cup. Not many managers would have been sacked after a season like that.
Our failure to compete for the league was a disappointment and Wenger's failure to sign a striker is looking like it will cost us.
Personally I think Saturday's game will be more revealing about our prospects than last night. Midweek results notwithstanding, Chelsea are on the ropes and we have a chance to finish them off.
I don't think we will but if we could win there it would show something about this team. Even a draw would be an improvement on our usual result there and whatever their results this season a point there is a #decent result. If we lose then yeah, same old Arsenal...
Power n Glory
16-09-2015, 11:33 PM
I didn't see the game as it was on at 2:45am or some silly hour here. It was a bad result but, given it's a mini-league, not a disaster. I think we'll quality from the group.
Nice WUMming above but what I said (and it's obviously true) is that Wenger should be judged at the end of the season. That's true of any manager at any club in any season.
At the end of last season we finished 3rd and won the Cup. Not many managers would have been sacked after a season like that.
Our failure to compete for the league was a disappointment and Wenger's failure to sign a striker is looking like it will cost us.
Personally I think Saturday's game will be more revealing about our prospects than last night. Midweek results notwithstanding, Chelsea are on the ropes and we have a chance to finish them off.
I don't think we will but if we could win there it would show something about this team. Even a draw would be an improvement on our usual result there and whatever their results this season a point there is a #decent result. If we lose then yeah, same old Arsenal...
You'd have to watch the game and look at the team selection. It's not about the one bad result or the one great game over a big opponent. Or even about silverware where we think we've finally got that monkey off our back and should be able to push on. Your flaw is in thinking Saturday's result will be more revealing. There is always some landmark moment which is supposed to mark our growth and reveal more about the team as of tonight's performance and actions should be enough revelation.
I said this during the City win last year. It means nothing if we're repeating the same tactical/philosophical mistakes. You can't simply look at the results. Judge by actions and it's clear Wenger isn't learning or changing.
Niall_Quinn
16-09-2015, 11:37 PM
You'd have to watch the game and look at the team selection. It's not about the one bad result or the one great game over a big opponent. Or even about silverware where we think we've finally got that monkey off our back and should be able to push on. Your flaw is in thinking Saturday's result will be more revealing. There is always some landmark moment which is supposed to mark our growth and reveal more about the team as of tonight's performance and actions should be enough revelation.
I said this during the City win last year. It means nothing if we're repeating the same tactical/philosophical mistakes. You can't simply look at the results. Judge by actions and it's clear Wenger isn't learning or changing.
When the weather gets a bit colder Wenger will start wearing his coat again. That's the only change we're going to see around here.
Niall_Quinn
16-09-2015, 11:47 PM
Said before the game:
Gambling with the first game. Not taking the opposition seriously. I hope the total transformation of the team for no good reason and the arrogance pays out. Is Cech tired or something? Coquelin can't play - why? Monreal? Ox will need to have a good game to stop this being a fiesta of plodding.
Said during the game:
Bif needs to sort his head out or he's getting a red and we'll have lost the opening game.
Said after the game:
Wenger OUT!
And I was pissed the whole time.
Just goes to show what watching the same thing over and over again for 10 years can teach you. Unless you are WUMger, this will all be new and surprising for him.
Letters
17-09-2015, 01:48 AM
You can't simply look at the results.
Ultimately that's all you need to look at. Sure, Wenger has flaws but so will the next guy. Quite possibly more serious ones given how some of the people mooted as possible replacements have got on in the last couple of seasons. For all his flaws he's won us a couple of trophies in the last 2 years, IMO that buys him some time and he deserves a chance to push on for the biggest prizes.
I do think Saturday's result is important because despite their start I expect Chelsea to be 'up there' come May. In all the seasons I've seen us win the title we've got good results away at our rivals.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 05:50 AM
Ultimately that's all you need to look at. Sure, Wenger has flaws but so will the next guy. Quite possibly more serious ones given how some of the people mooted as possible replacements have got on in the last couple of seasons. For all his flaws he's won us a couple of trophies in the last 2 years, IMO that buys him some time and he deserves a chance to push on for the biggest prizes.
I do think Saturday's result is important because despite their start I expect Chelsea to be 'up there' come May. In all the seasons I've seen us win the title we've got good results away at our rivals.
You contradict yourself because the other week you said people were moaning because the result didn't go our way. You said people couldn't separate results from performance. Sure. Now you're saying the opposite.
You're not consistent with your arguments and looks like you'll defend Wenger and make an excuse for him regardless and that's why you get so much flak on here.
You say Saturday is the more important result but just be honest. We could get trounced 10 nil and you'd be back looking for the next landmark. Our next game at Utd or you'll be here applauding our next 10 game unbeaten run.
Letters
17-09-2015, 06:51 AM
I'm not saying the opposite at all :rolleyes:
Ultimately results are the main thing, obviously. What I was saying before is people seem to be moaning right now whatever we do.
People were moaning about the result on the opening day - understandably so.
But then when we won games, somewhat scrappily, they then moaned about the performance.
I get so much flak on here because almost no-one else seems to think that logically and a lot tend to resort to WUMming or abuse when they can't engage with my position which is constantly caricatured - a key example being your last paragraph. A lazy response would be "and if we win 3-1 you'll just moan we conceded a goal and that shows our defence isn't good enough to win the title".
I've said consistently we need to compete for the biggest prizes this season. I've said consistently how important I see the Chelsea game being. I won't cut myself if we lose but it would be the biggest indication yet that we're not good enough to complete. Until now there have been doubts but only City have started significantly better than us so I don't see any need to throw in the towel right now as lots seem to have.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 07:03 AM
No, people were moaning about the performance as well as the result. Do you even see what your doing? Contradiction is logical, Letters.
Yeah, yeah and the big money cheats have more resources than us and all that. Yeah, yeah, I get it. You ignore huge chunks of what I've written so you don't have to address it.
Maestro
17-09-2015, 07:04 AM
The only thing am really angry and annoyed about is i didn't go down to the bookies, to place a bet on arsenal losing a game they seemingly should win .....lost money
There's financial gains to be had from arsenal's comedy club, but i'm worried even the bookies are catching on to this and shortening the odds
Letters
17-09-2015, 07:12 AM
You ignore huge chunks of what I've written so you don't have to address it.
I hope you appreciate the irony of you saying that while completely changing the subject and ignoring my entire post :lol:
selassie
17-09-2015, 07:20 AM
No words for last nights abomination. We are the pits in CL and are now more frequently getting turned over in it by supposed lesser teams.
All I hear coming out of Wenger's mouth are "empty promises", it's mentally tiring.
Bumble
17-09-2015, 07:33 AM
On the plus side we matched the results of the two big spending Manchester clubs.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 07:34 AM
I hope you appreciate the irony of you saying that while completely changing the subject and ignoring my entire post :lol:
:doh: You've done it again. There is no debating with you because despite people saying they are unhappy with the performances and results at the end of each season, you don't address it. I can't really respond to someone that contradicts themselves and then thinks their position is the most logical on here.
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
17-09-2015, 07:45 AM
Frankly couldn't give a damn about last night, would it really be the end of the world if we didn't qualify from the group (which I think we will even though we always lose to both Bayern and Olympiakos).
I'm glad we rotated, I don't want the excuse of saying we were a little bit tired from the game on Wednesday against Chelsea, if we lose now there are no excuses no hiding places
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 07:52 AM
I hope you appreciate the irony of you saying that while completely changing the subject and ignoring my entire post :lol:
I think it's too early to judge if the response is ironic or if some or all of your post has been ignored. PnG could go on a run of 10 consecutive non-ironic, comprehensively attentive posts. We should wait to judge him at the end of the debate.
Letters
17-09-2015, 08:02 AM
a lot tend to resort to WUMming or abuse when they can't engage with my position which is constantly caricatured.
QED :)
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
17-09-2015, 08:10 AM
I'm prepared to wait until the end of the season and remind you of what you said when the transfer window slammed shut
That if we fail to challenge for the title Wenger should be sacked.
Letters
17-09-2015, 08:11 AM
I'm prepared to wait until the end of the season and remind you of what you said when the transfer window slammed shut
That if we fail to challenge for the title Wenger should be sacked.
I know what I said :lol:
And still I get this bullshit about defending Wenger no matter what and :blah:
Obviously by "challenge" I mean finish top 4
:run:
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 08:24 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gwRO3yIZ94
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 08:37 AM
'We were a bit unlucky,' said Wenger. 'The first goal is offside and, after, the sending off is very harsh.
'Yes, he was rash. The first yellow is Giroud’s fault because he protested, even if it was not a foul against him. He should not have responded to the referee.
'The second, he is unlucky to touch the guy. I don’t understand the referee. It was accidental completely. It was not a second yellow. It has to be on purpose, a foul on purpose. He should have given many yellows tonight.'
'When you don’t win the game have to look at yourself and think you haven’t got it right, I don’t believe the players who came in had a bad game but it didn’t work, it didn’t work.
'Ospina is a very good goalkeeper and he showed that again. Petr Cech not having played a full season (last season) I tried to give him some rest mentally. It is the same for goalkeepers as the outfield players.
'We were a bit unlucky and we lacked cohesion in some situations. I have to analyse that. We have to look at ourselves. The second goal kills our game. On the corner we were guilty of not defending well, but we had a lot of ball even when it was 10 against 11.
'They defended well, I believe they stopped us in situations without being punished, counter-attacks where we had to play 10 against 11 in one half, very strong situations.
'We were not at our best but nor was the referee.'
'Mathematically, we can qualify without any problem, if we produce the performances we want at home. Overall, we had problems to start in every competition this season.
'We had problems in the Premier League and tonight in the Champions League but we can put that right. It is the first game, let’s see where we stand after six games. Then we can draw conclusions.'
The multiple-PL winning, CL winning, hugely experienced Cech needed a mental rest? Somebody needs a mental check-up.
It is the first game, let’s see where we stand after six games. Then we can draw conclusions.
:haha: :haha: :haha:
:haha:
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
17-09-2015, 08:40 AM
I'm sorry but actually I think the team selection was good, we can't have it both ways the thing that frustrates me most about Wenger is beasting his players and not rotating.
Arteta is not good enough for Arsenal, neither is Ospina and the old git made no attempt to strengthen his squad so maybe it might give him occasion to reconsider his folly.
Also do any of us have any illusion of winning the Champions League?.....the league is unlikely but it's a damn sight more of a realistic prospect and I'd rather lose a game like this and have a fully fit and rested first XI against Chelsea.
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 08:46 AM
I'm sorry but actually I think the team selection was good, we can't have it both ways the thing that frustrates me most about Wenger is beasting his players and not rotating.
Arteta is not good enough for Arsenal, neither is Ospina and the old git made no attempt to strengthen his squad so maybe it might give him occasion to reconsider his folly.
Also do any of us have any illusion of winning the Champions League?.....the league is unlikely but it's a damn sight more of a realistic prospect and I'd rather lose a game like this and have a fully fit and rested first XI against Chelsea.
Team selection - all those changes? That's not rotation, it's complacency. Leaving Ramsey and Bellerin at home, that's rotation. Replacing the defence and dropping your most effective player in the first game of a major tournament - that's incompetence. Nobody is asking for extreme swings between running the players into the ground and replacing half the team. A little bit if tactical savvy coupled with the sensible rotation of quality players is what we need. Wenger has no savvy in this competition and he keeps proving it years after year, and he won't buy the players that would provide the depth and opportunity for effective rotation.
It would be easier to get knocked out of the CL early so we can focus on qualifying for next year's CL.
Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
17-09-2015, 09:01 AM
Team selection - all those changes? That's not rotation, it's complacency. Leaving Ramsey and Bellerin at home, that's rotation. Replacing the defence and dropping your most effective player in the first game of a major tournament - that's incompetence. Nobody is asking for extreme swings between running the players into the ground and replacing half the team. A little bit if tactical savvy coupled with the sensible rotation of quality players is what we need. Wenger has no savvy in this competition and he keeps proving it years after year, and he won't buy the players that would provide the depth and opportunity for effective rotation.
It would be easier to get knocked out of the CL early so we can focus on qualifying for next year's CL.
This is Dynamo Zagreb we shouldn't have to worry about the team we put out against them, this is not West Ham complacency, because half the premier league teams are better than the dross that qualifies for that competition.
Plus if half these players weren't strangers borne out of Wenger previously not rotating it wouldn't have been an issue.
It was a shame to see Ramsey left at home, means that he will play against Chelsea.
I'm sorry but actually I think the team selection was good, we can't have it both ways the thing that frustrates me most about Wenger is beasting his players and not rotating.
Arteta is not good enough for Arsenal, neither is Ospina and the old git made no attempt to strengthen his squad so maybe it might give him occasion to reconsider his folly.
Also do any of us have any illusion of winning the Champions League?.....the league is unlikely but it's a damn sight more of a realistic prospect and I'd rather lose a game like this and have a fully fit and rested first XI against Chelsea.
I disagree with you my friend. This was not a case of rotation in any sensible sense. It was a massive gamble based on an arrogant assumption that we could effectively experiment against a European 'minnow'. It is obvious folly making 6 changes - and more importantly dropping 4 of what passes for the first team line up these days. The gamble was made worse by the lack of playing time of the players he brought in. Whatever the merits of those brought in last night, it was folly to disrupt the team and bring in so many rusty players in a CL game. This was not the Carling Cup, FFS. Wenger's pre-match observation that we lost our first CL group match last year and still qualified tells you all you need to know about how he approached this game.
I'd even say he was misguided in the light of Saturday's match against Chelsea. We are at the beginning of the season, not two thirds through where players are out on their feet. For me, our 'first team' needs more, rather than less playing time to start functioning as more than a disparate group of players, and last night could have provided that.
Ironically given the criticism, one of the players I would have rested ahead of the weekend was Coquelin. But to think that Arteta - coming back from a year without any football - could simply slot into the hole he left without the likes of Ramsey (or even Flamini?) alongside him to shore things up was to my mind stupid. their first goal - with Zagreb carving through our midfield at will - was eloquent testimiony to this.
selassie
17-09-2015, 09:33 AM
I'm sorry but actually I think the team selection was good, we can't have it both ways the thing that frustrates me most about Wenger is beasting his players and not rotating.
Arteta is not good enough for Arsenal, neither is Ospina and the old git made no attempt to strengthen his squad so maybe it might give him occasion to reconsider his folly.
Also do any of us have any illusion of winning the Champions League?.....the league is unlikely but it's a damn sight more of a realistic prospect and I'd rather lose a game like this and have a fully fit and rested first XI against Chelsea.
I dunno, a midfield duo of Arteta and Caz lacks balance IMO. I've never rated Arteta and Caz as a duo in CM, neither of them can run or tackle. We were getting torn apart on the counter yesterday even in the first half when we had 11 men, Arteta and Caz weren't soley responsible but whenever either of them gave the ball away or had to track their runners we were under massive pressure as neither of them are mobile enough.
It was naive of Wenger to pair them and clearly showed he hadn't done his homework regarding the opposition.
For me it's like Wenger just throws players together and hopes it will work. He doesn't manage the squad correctly and as already stated by NQ, part of the wider problem is the lack of options we have in the squad regarding specific roles. Squad management will be Wenger's undoing this season and it's part of the reason why he rarely makes changes because outside of his preferred XI which is unbalanced as it is he just has a collection of squad players who don't really fill specific roles in the team.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 09:39 AM
This is Dynamo Zagreb we shouldn't have to worry about the team we put out against them, this is not West Ham complacency, because half the premier league teams are better than the dross that qualifies for that competition.
Plus if half these players weren't strangers borne out of Wenger previously not rotating it wouldn't have been an issue.
It was a shame to see Ramsey left at home, means that he will play against Chelsea.
It was too much rotation and it was just to keep the players sidelined happy. It would have made more sense to give Sanchez and Ozil a break. Sanchez especially because he’s had a very long run and been thrust back into action. But the keeper, Monreal, Bellerin and Coquelin are fresh. We’re coming off an International break and they didn’t feature in the games. But either way, we should have had enough to win the game. But at the same time, I’m not writing them off because they’re strong at home and have a long unbeaten record. It boils down to motivation because there is no way the players selected should have put out such a tame performance considering their fighting for their places. So I agree with you on that part.
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 09:49 AM
I agree, we'll definitely qualify. We have to qualify to gloriously fail in the next round. But you know, maybe if we pick up a striker and an authoritative midfielder in the 2016 transfer window we can really compete in this competition when we finish 3rd or 4th in the PL this season and qualify for it. We couldn't do that this summer because it was impossible. But maybe it will be possible next summer. Or the summer after.
mastermind84
17-09-2015, 10:35 AM
Oxlade-Chamberlain is not a good footballer. I wish we offered him to Liverpool this summer for Sterling.
AFC Leveller
17-09-2015, 11:25 AM
I agree, we'll definitely qualify. We have to qualify to gloriously fail in the next round. But you know, maybe if we pick up a striker and an authoritative midfielder in the 2016 transfer window we can really compete in this competition when we finish 3rd or 4th in the PL this season and qualify for it. We couldn't do that this summer because it was impossible. But maybe it will be possible next summer. Or the summer after.
It must have been frustrating for Ozil last night,m every time he picked the ball up and looked up, there was a static statue wearing a number 12 shirt. The guy makes no runs, has no movement or clever turns. He can be sp shite at times.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 11:32 AM
Big misconception about Giroud holding the ball up. We looked a lot better with 10 men to be honest. Wenger should have started with Theo up front. He needs to grow in confidence up front. Luckily he scored last night so he can go into the Chelsea game feeling a little more confident. Giroud’s confidence must be shot to shit right now. Wenger needs to send him away on holiday for a week or so.
rodders
17-09-2015, 12:20 PM
Just unlucky says Arsene
Oxlade-Chamberlain is not a good footballer. I wish we offered him to Liverpool this summer for Sterling.
Wow, I know GW is full of shit when we lose but ffs there's no need for that.
I'm not saying the opposite at all :rolleyes:
Ultimately results are the main thing, obviously. What I was saying before is people seem to be moaning right now whatever we do.
People were moaning about the result on the opening day - understandably so.
But then when we won games, somewhat scrappily, they then moaned about the performance.
I get so much flak on here because almost no-one else seems to think that logically and a lot tend to resort to WUMming or abuse when they can't engage with my position which is constantly caricatured - a key example being your last paragraph. A lazy response would be "and if we win 3-1 you'll just moan we conceded a goal and that shows our defence isn't good enough to win the title".
I've said consistently we need to compete for the biggest prizes this season. I've said consistently how important I see the Chelsea game being. I won't cut myself if we lose but it would be the biggest indication yet that we're not good enough to complete. Until now there have been doubts but only City have started significantly better than us so I don't see any need to throw in the towel right now as lots seem to have.
I don't think you understand peoples' beef, Letters. There's a saying in football (and elsewhere) that its a results business, and to a certain extent, this is true. Football is a business, and there is a direct correlation between league (CL) position and income. Even from a fans' point of view, I get that if you win silverware, noone cares much about performances. But without trophies - of course people are entitled to, and will assess a team's performance - more importantly a team's progression.
That is what I see most Gooners disillusioned about. We may have won two FA Cups, and I was one of those both last season and the one before who hoped against hope that this would provide a mental springboard to give our team the impetus to progress. But it hasn't. Was winning the cups really indicative of progression? Without other evidence I would argue not. We were fortunate in both years by key competitors being knocked out, and (Liverpool in 2014 being perhaps the only exception) we did nothing in getting to the final that vastly exceeded where we should have been as a team.
And the reason why so many feel justified in making judgments so early in the season is that we have seen it all before. Promising players stagnating or going backwards; tactical naivety; lack of investment in needed players; even the excitement of 'world class' players being brought in in recent times who either disappoint/are not used effectively (Ozil) or perform but make little substantive difference to Arsenal's level because the rest of the team fail to make progress (Sanchez). This is emphatically not WUMming; its not reactionary and its not short-sighted. It is a logical conclusion to observations about Wenger's teams going back YEARS. Right thinking Gooners are not plastic fans craving silverware, they may even be nervous about what happens after Wenger. But while you are entitled to your view that we should cut the manager more slack, it is patently obvious that this team is simply not progressing, and ultimately there can only be one person to blame for this.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 12:55 PM
Wow, I know GW is full of shit when we lose but ffs there's no need for that.
Yeah totally agree. Ox is just raw. He'll be inconsistent. He's only 21.
It was too much rotation and it was just to keep the players sidelined happy. It would have made more sense to give Sanchez and Ozil a break. Sanchez especially because he’s had a very long run and been thrust back into action. But the keeper, Monreal, Bellerin and Coquelin are fresh. We’re coming off an International break and they didn’t feature in the games. But either way, we should have had enough to win the game. But at the same time, I’m not writing them off because they’re strong at home and have a long unbeaten record. It boils down to motivation because there is no way the players selected should have put out such a tame performance considering their fighting for their places. So I agree with you on that part.
I think you make a good point (highlighted). While you could make a case for any single player coming in last night if they were tested and match fit, giving the likes of Debuchy; Arteta and Ospina a CL match when they have played so litttle in recent times smacked of the manager trying to mollify players' feelings than giving us the best chance of winning the match.
Yeah totally agree. Ox is just raw. He'll be inconsistent. He's only 21.
Yes - posts like the original one don't help. But the Ox is not being helped to progress. Either he is not being taken to task for his abject failure to track back, or (and I suspect that this is nearer to the truth) he is not being coached in how to conserve his energy and work more efficiently going forwards - with the result that he does not have the energy to do the defensive job that all outfield players should do when not in possession.
Penguin
17-09-2015, 01:17 PM
Oxlade-Chamberlain is not a good footballer. I wish we offered him to Liverpool this summer for Sterling.
:haha:
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 01:23 PM
Yes - posts like the original one don't help. But the Ox is not being helped to progress. Either he is not being taken to task for his abject failure to track back, or (and I suspect that this is nearer to the truth) he is not being coached in how to conserve his energy and work more efficiently going forwards - with the result that he does not have the energy to do the defensive job that all outfield players should do when not in possession.
Yeah, it's that feeling of the players being hung out to dry. Theo's been accused of the same and I remember Arshavin being asked to perform miracles on his aging legs. Still no idea why we never played him as a number 10 like we do for Ozil instead of trying to get something out of him that he'd never achieve after passing his prime.
Good point about conserving energy as well. Henry would do it all the time. It's down to the manager to sort this out because Ox is young and raw. We have to guide him right.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 01:32 PM
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/9993838/arsene-wenger-questions-olivier-giroud-red-card-against-dinamo-zagreb
"They were committed, they defended well and sometimes I felt that they stopped us from gaining an advantage without being punished by the referee, especially on counter-attacks where we had to play 10 against 11 in one half. We were not at our best but neither was the referee tonight."
What does 'committed' mean? How did we expect them to turn up?
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 01:41 PM
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/9993838/arsene-wenger-questions-olivier-giroud-red-card-against-dinamo-zagreb
What does 'committed' mean? How did we expect them to turn up?
In the end it was the ref's fault, that's all we really need to focus on. Although in some ways, maybe we shouldn't judge the ref until the end of the season.
Niall_Quinn
17-09-2015, 02:08 PM
Zagreb managers telling everyone what they already know:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3237651/Arsenal-predictable-not-world-class-Dinamo-Zagreb-manager-Zoran-Mamic-adds-insult-injury-Croatia.html
Cheeky bastard called us predictable, for some reason. Reckons he knew how we were going to play. Lucky guess.
Xhaka Can’t
17-09-2015, 02:09 PM
We were 'unlucky'.
At £8m a year, analysis like that is a bargain.
Penguin
17-09-2015, 02:09 PM
What team isn't committed in the CL?
Oh right, only us. <_<
Zagreb managers telling everyone what they already know:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3237651/Arsenal-predictable-not-world-class-Dinamo-Zagreb-manager-Zoran-Mamic-adds-insult-injury-Croatia.html
Cheeky bastard called us predictable, for some reason. Reckons he knew how we were going to play. Lucky guess.
Not what everyone already just most people, at least he calling us out for what we are, overrated.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 02:22 PM
Zagreb managers telling everyone what they already know:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3237651/Arsenal-predictable-not-world-class-Dinamo-Zagreb-manager-Zoran-Mamic-adds-insult-injury-Croatia.html
Cheeky bastard called us predictable, for some reason. Reckons he knew how we were going to play. Lucky guess.
Damn! He didn't spare any punches and it's downright embarrassing. I don't know why Wenger isn't embarrassed by this. Maybe the press need to stop sparing him with the soft questions and really dig into claims such as 'being unlucky' and the other team being 'committed'. Press him on it and find out if his brain is really working back there. Is he just being coy or is he an absolute fraud. These journalist are bloody lazy. They don't ask the right questions and they regurgitate soundbites from ex players, pundits and what's written on social media.
Globalgunner
17-09-2015, 02:28 PM
After listening to an old scratchy record play a couple of times. Most people can easily predict where its going to skip and jump. every one that is except the owner of the record, who insists that THIS time it will play flawlessly. All he has done however is put a little spit and burnished it with his elbow.
I love the CL but usually enjoy it only about the QF stage, when we are no longer in it.
mastermind84
17-09-2015, 02:49 PM
Wow, I know GW is full of shit when we lose but ffs there's no need for that.
Yeah totally agree. Ox is just raw. He'll be inconsistent. He's only 21.
:haha:
Oxlade-Chamberlain is 22 and isnt getting better. He is the exact same player he was when he arrived. He doesnt defend and his mess ups lead to goals for the opponents.
He isnt good enough for Arsenal. Its not inconsistency when you see the same thing over and over. He isnt a good enough dribbler, passer, finisher, makes bad decisions, and isnt tactically up to it in attack and defense. What does Oxlade-Chamberlain do that is outstanding? At least Theo is fast and can finish.
If we didnt try for Sterling because we have Oxlade-Chamberlain, then we have err'd massively.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 02:58 PM
Oxlade-Chamberlain is 22 and isnt getting better. He is the exact same player he was when he arrived. He doesnt defend and his mess ups lead to goals for the opponents.
He isnt good enough for Arsenal. Its not inconsistency when you see the same thing over and over. He isnt a good enough dribbler, passer, finisher, makes bad decisions, and isnt tactically up to it in attack and defense. What does Oxlade-Chamberlain do that is outstanding? At least Theo is fast and can finish.
If we didnt try for Sterling because we have Oxlade-Chamberlain, then we have err'd massively.
Ah pipe down. Just the other week you were saying Theo wasn't good enough. Coquelin wasn't good enough and we need a clone of Arteta. :haha:
Ox is young and his faults are down to the manager.
We didn't go for Sterling because City were in for him and Wenger doesn't get involved with bidding wars. He'd never the pay the sort of money City paid.
Munchies
17-09-2015, 03:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gwRO3yIZ94
:gp:
mastermind84
17-09-2015, 03:11 PM
Ah pipe down. Just the other week you were saying Theo wasn't good enough. Coquelin wasn't good enough and we need a clone of Arteta. :haha:
Ox is young and his faults are down to the manager.
We didn't go for Sterling because City were in for him and Wenger doesn't get involved with bidding wars. He'd never the pay the sort of money City paid.
I said Theo wasnt good enough to be a central striker. Still not convinced.
I said we can do better than Coquelin and Im still not convinced. (he is getting better, and I am happy for that)
Oxlade-Chamberlain's faults are down to him not being good enough for Arsenal and Wenger giving him freedom to mess up on top of that. Oxlade-Chamberlain isnt good enough for Arsenal and we have seen this consistently.
It was rumored Sterling wanted to go back to London. Who knows what would have happened if we made the same bid for him, tbf. I think we had a chance, if the rumors were true.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 03:27 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gwRO3yIZ94
Tell him to get behind the players and stop wishing for some miracle striker to drop down from heaven. Pay up and shut up! But thank you for taking an interest in our affairs.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 03:29 PM
I said Theo wasnt good enough to be a central striker. Still not convinced.
I said we can do better than Coquelin and Im still not convinced. (he is getting better, and I am happy for that)
Oxlade-Chamberlain's faults are down to him not being good enough for Arsenal and Wenger giving him freedom to mess up on top of that. Oxlade-Chamberlain isnt good enough for Arsenal and we have seen this consistently.
It was rumored Sterling wanted to go back to London. Who knows what would have happened if we made the same bid for him, tbf. I think we had a chance, if the rumors were true.
Like those Benzema rumours? Or the Draxler rumours a season ago? We weren't in for Sterling and Ox wasn't the man holding him back. Ox isn't even a first team regular.
I mean, shit...what's with the short memory Arsenal fans? He needs to work on his defence but he's scored a couple of important goals for us already. Let him live.
mastermind84
17-09-2015, 04:21 PM
Like those Benzema rumours? Or the Draxler rumours a season ago? We weren't in for Sterling and Ox wasn't the man holding him back. Ox isn't even a first team regular.
I mean, shit...what's the the short memory Arsenal fans?
the ones that said we were interested in him? What is your short term memory like if you are now dismissing that? (notice I am not commenting on the "benzema is arriving on Sunday" rumors, just that we were really interested in him)
He needs to work on his defence but he's scored a couple of important goals for us already. Let him live.
yeah, you never answered my question. What does he do outstanding? What trait does he have that shows he can be a player at a high level?
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 04:47 PM
the ones that said we were interested in him? What is your short term memory like if you are now dismissing that? (notice I am not commenting on the "benzema is arriving on Sunday" rumors, just that we were really interested in him)
yeah, you never answered my question. What does he do outstanding? What trait does he have that shows he can be a player at a high level?
Are you really paying attention to media speculation regarding Sterling? Seriously? And if any of it were true, you really believe Wenger didn't sign him because of Ox? A player that isn't a first team option?
Is Ox outstanding at anything? No. But you know what? He's 22. He's still developing and hasn't played much first team football because of injury. What 22 year old do we have in this squad that's outstanding at anything?
I said Theo wasnt good enough to be a central striker. Still not convinced.
I said we can do better than Coquelin and Im still not convinced. (he is getting better, and I am happy for that)
Oxlade-Chamberlain's faults are down to him not being good enough for Arsenal and Wenger giving him freedom to mess up on top of that. Oxlade-Chamberlain isnt good enough for Arsenal and we have seen this consistently.
It was rumored Sterling wanted to go back to London. Who knows what would have happened if we made the same bid for him, tbf. I think we had a chance, if the rumors were true.
I'm not in this camp yet but I see where you are coming from. Ox is as responsible for his game as his manager, just like Theo and Ramsey. Players need guidance but they also have to take responsibility and learn wherever they can. It's injury record doesn't help him and as it stands if he left, I wouldn't lose sleep over it because under the current manager, he is only ever going to improve so much. Whether he'll gain those much needed improvements to his game elsewhere I don't know but it's too early to make a final call on him - at least he's making it onto the pitch more than Wilshere.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 05:24 PM
And what exactly can they learn from Wenger? They're not bad students and it's clear they all have the raw talent. So in our years of developing young players that start in their teens, why is it that none of them have really hit the dizzying heights? It's been over 10 years now.
rodders
17-09-2015, 05:56 PM
Wenger is totally correct however he is also convinced the world is square
And what exactly can they learn from Wenger? They're not bad students and it's clear they all have the raw talent. So in our years of developing young players that start in their teens, why is it that none of them have really hit the dizzying heights? It's been over 10 years now.
I presume that's in response to my post. You do realise that is what I was saying in part, right?
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 06:19 PM
I presume that's in response to my post. You do realise that is what I was saying in part, right?
Why so tetchy :lol: What does in part mean? I'm just extending on what you said. And it's open to anyone that cares to take part.
Yes, the onus is on the player to want to learn from the manager. But I'm extending that question to whether we think we have a bunch of players on our hands that don't want to learn because we've been doing this for over 10 years now. The English core are supposed to be the very best of what Wenger can produce. Can Wenger produce top class players from this sort of age group is the question.
Why so tetchy :lol: What does in part mean? I'm just extending on what you said. And it's open to anyone that cares to take part.
Yes, the onus is on the player to want to learn from the manager. But I'm extending that question to whether we think we have a bunch of players on our hands that don't want to learn because we've been doing this for over 10 years now. The English core are supposed to be the very best of what Wenger can produce. Can Wenger produce top class players from this sort of age group is the question.
Tetchy? I just wasn't sure. Your post appeared at the top of the following page after mine and seemed to follow on but without the quote I didn't know. Anyway, in part means that the manger and coaches have to guide a player but the player has to be smart enough to learn from their mistakes, learn from international colleagues and notice what opposition players are doing as they have the closest possible view imaginable. Ox has talent but I'm not convinced we'll see that realised at our club under Wenger and with our medical history. Same for Ramsey, Gibbs, Chambers, Bellerin and Coquelin.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 07:05 PM
Tetchy? I just wasn't sure. Your post appeared at the top of the following page after mine and seemed to follow on but without the quote I didn't know. Anyway, in part means that the manger and coaches have to guide a player but the player has to be smart enough to learn from their mistakes, learn from international colleagues and notice what opposition players are doing as they have the closest possible view imaginable. Ox has talent but I'm not convinced we'll see that realised at our club under Wenger and with our medical history. Same for Ramsey, Gibbs, Chambers, Bellerin and Coquelin.
That's another thought. They say iron sharpens iron and anytime we hear past Invincibles talk about training, they talk of how the old GG players whipped them into shape if they made mistakes. I also think of Cesc saying he felt he stopped developing at Arsenal once certain players left. Do you think these players would have turned out different if these were the old Arsenal days? Totally hypothetical but I think the flaws in Cesc's defending, for example, would have been cut out early if he ever played under that Adams and Keown regime. With the weak sides we've built over the years, I often wonder how much these guys are learning from each other. I think we have intelligent players on our hand but if in training they're not getting drilled every session, I don't know how they'll really learn. I'm sure most of them can see and feel what they're doing wrong but just don't have the tools to correct it.
alexander
17-09-2015, 07:51 PM
complete and utter shower of sh*te.
Balls to the lot of them, and the manager. How many times do I get my hopes up, like a bloody mug, only to have them knocked back down.
I find it impossible to wish bad results and a fall from grace(!) upon the team/manager, but how else will it change? the manager is going nowhere for two years, all that will happen is the same thing again.
Power n Glory
17-09-2015, 08:56 PM
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/wenger-must-face-up-to-the-consequences-of-breaking-his-own-rules-as-arsenal-slip-up-in-zagreb-a2949576.html
What an utterly avoidable mess. Arsenal are now on the back foot in the Champions League and mithered in self-doubt ahead of their Premier League trip to Chelsea after Arsene Wenger had a night to forget.
The ‘Wenger Out’ brigade have not yet reached fever pitch with their mutinous rhetoric but this defeat to Dinamo Zagreb will only strengthen their conviction that he is making decisions detrimental to the team’s progress.
It is too early in the season to judge if that is the case but he made a series of choices last night that backfired spectacularly. Wenger has often preached a specific line regarding squad rotation — and for that matter player acquisitions: making more than two or three alterations can destabilise a team.
ADVERTISING
Here in the Croatian capital, there were six changes from the line-up that beat Stoke on Saturday. Four of them — Mathieu Debuchy, Kieran Gibbs, Mikel Arteta and David Ospina — were making their first start of the season.
Understandably, they lacked match fitness. Debuchy and Arteta struggled badly and it contributed to the “lack of cohesion” Wenger identified afterwards. Why should the Arsenal manager break his ‘rule of three’ against a team unbeaten in 41 competitive matches?
Regardless of what was claimed beforehand, it was clear he had the game at Stamford Bridge in mind and believed his squad players could get the job done against a side that had not won a Champions League group stage match in 15 attempts dating back to 1999.
That faith was misplaced, not for the first time. Theo Walcott scored and impressed against Stoke but Wenger opted for Olivier Giroud from the outset against Dinamo.
Giroud missed a couple of good opportunities and was sent off for two needless bookings inside 40 minutes while Walcott came off the bench to score one of only two chances that came his way. Safe to say Wenger made the wrong call there, too.
Arsenal played an almost absurdly high defensive line in a bid to pen their opponents in, attempting success through strangulation. In fairness, it nearly worked as the Gunners dominated the opening 20 minutes but Giroud missed the kind of chances that will only reinforce the view he is not clinical enough for a team with title aspirations at home and abroad.
Wenger’s reluctance to pay over the odds to land a top striker — or even a younger one with potential — looks misguided on occasions like this.
But back to those tactics. By pushing so far up the pitch, it left the Gunners exposed on the counter-attack in the same way that has been highlighted so many times before. It can only be embarrassing for Wenger that word has spread as far as Zagreb.
Francis Coquelin has helped with that weakness to some extent but in his absence (again, another Wenger decision), Arteta and Santi Cazorla’s collective lack of pace and strength was ruthlessly exposed by a team with only modest talents.
Both Josip Pivaric’s opening goal and Junior Fernandes’s second were poor from a defensive point of view on a night when Bayern Munich eased into their stride with a 3-0 win at Olympiakos.
It feels absurdly premature to contemplate after one game, but already it appears second place in Group F is the best Arsenal can hope for.
Wenger typically bemoaned the referee’s performance and cursed bad luck but perhaps the most telling admission was this one: “Overall, I believe we have problems to start in every competition this season, we had problems in the Premier League and again in the Champions League, but I am confident we can put that right in the next five games.”
As has been noted in these pages before, last month Wenger constantly cited the importance of a fast start and insisted there was no need to change their pre-season preparations because last year’s crawl out of the blocks was due to a post-World Cup hangover.
There is no crisis yet. Arsenal are fourth in the Premier League and have time to recover in Europe. But rather than ticking off an anticipated victory en route to west London this weekend, the Gunners boarded the bus for a two-hour drive to the Slovenian capital Ljubljana (there were no more flights out of Zagreb last night) deep in introspection.
Good piece this one. A very good explanation of why Wenger made too many changes.
mastermind84
18-09-2015, 03:08 AM
What 22 year old do we have in this squad that's outstanding at anything?
We already know Bellerin has great recovery speed. We knew Theo could finish and was one of the fastest players in football. Ramsey's engine and determination made him a first teamer before the ogre at Stoke broke his leg. And before Jack was effed, we saw his ability to beat guys in tight spaces. The great talents show quality when they are young. That is why clubs sign young talents. To accentuate their strength and boost up the areas they are weak at to make them a more complete player.
By you saying Ox isnt outstanding at anything shows that you dont rate him much either. He is basically Matthew Taylor. Scores the great goal from time to time but offers nothing else.
Letters
18-09-2015, 04:08 AM
I don't think you understand peoples' beef, Letters. There's a saying in football (and elsewhere) that its a results business, and to a certain extent, this is true. Football is a business, and there is a direct correlation between league (CL) position and income. Even from a fans' point of view, I get that if you win silverware, noone cares much about performances. But without trophies - of course people are entitled to, and will assess a team's performance - more importantly a team's progression.
That is what I see most Gooners disillusioned about. We may have won two FA Cups, and I was one of those both last season and the one before who hoped against hope that this would provide a mental springboard to give our team the impetus to progress. But it hasn't. Was winning the cups really indicative of progression? Without other evidence I would argue not. We were fortunate in both years by key competitors being knocked out, and (Liverpool in 2014 being perhaps the only exception) we did nothing in getting to the final that vastly exceeded where we should have been as a team.
And the reason why so many feel justified in making judgments so early in the season is that we have seen it all before. Promising players stagnating or going backwards; tactical naivety; lack of investment in needed players; even the excitement of 'world class' players being brought in in recent times who either disappoint/are not used effectively (Ozil) or perform but make little substantive difference to Arsenal's level because the rest of the team fail to make progress (Sanchez). This is emphatically not WUMming; its not reactionary and its not short-sighted. It is a logical conclusion to observations about Wenger's teams going back YEARS. Right thinking Gooners are not plastic fans craving silverware, they may even be nervous about what happens after Wenger. But while you are entitled to your view that we should cut the manager more slack, it is patently obvious that this team is simply not progressing, and ultimately there can only be one person to blame for this.
:hug: You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.
I basically agree with a lot of the above. I'd still like to leave it a little longer in this season before jumping to too many conclusions although I agree about the Groundhog Day nature of the last 10 years. That said, I've said endlessly why I see some glimmers of hope - players like Ozil and Sanchez, results like Old Trafford Cup Quarter Final and the FA Cup wins (which I don't accept were luck, I agree to an extent about some of the team being knocked out but there's always an element of luck in a Cup and last year we beat Utd away, the season before we played 3 of the top 6 - all at home, but still).
The last 2 years we've won the Cup and finished 4th then retained the Cup and finished 3rd. There have been frustrations but overall it's not been a bad 2 years. Last year we only finished below the two sides who have billionaires propping them up. People always say the billionaire thing is an "excuse" but the fact is they've mopped up most of the titles between them since they got going. Only Fergie has bested them both and as good as I think Wenger is, he's no Fergie. I do think now we have the new financial deals in place we can give them a run for their money though. As much as we all want to push on for the biggest prizes I think the level of moaning and hyperbole on here is way out of proportion to the situation. We lose, people moan. We win, people just moan about the performance instead.
I see the Chelsea game as a bigger indication of how this season will go than anything we've seen so far. We've not flown out of the blocks this season but only City have. Chelsea have had poor results so far but our record there is horrible of late, if we could win there it would show something about this team.
Ultimately I agree Wenger should be sacked it we don't start competing for the league. But I don't think he deserves the level of criticism much less the disrespect he gets on here.
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 07:31 AM
You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.
Good grief! It's puke inducing.
People have been saying (not too far from word for word) the same to you for months now, years in some cases.
:hug: You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.
I basically agree with a lot of the above. I'd still like to leave it a little longer in this season before jumping to too many conclusions although I agree about the Groundhog Day nature of the last 10 years. That said, I've said endlessly why I see some glimmers of hope - players like Ozil and Sanchez, results like Old Trafford Cup Quarter Final and the FA Cup wins (which I don't accept were luck, I agree to an extent about some of the team being knocked out but there's always an element of luck in a Cup and last year we beat Utd away, the season before we played 3 of the top 6 - all at home, but still).
The last 2 years we've won the Cup and finished 4th then retained the Cup and finished 3rd. There have been frustrations but overall it's not been a bad 2 years. Last year we only finished below the two sides who have billionaires propping them up. People always say the billionaire thing is an "excuse" but the fact is they've mopped up most of the titles between them since they got going. Only Fergie has bested them both and as good as I think Wenger is, he's no Fergie. I do think now we have the new financial deals in place we can give them a run for their money though. As much as we all want to push on for the biggest prizes I think the level of moaning and hyperbole on here is way out of proportion to the situation. We lose, people moan. We win, people just moan about the performance instead.
I see the Chelsea game as a bigger indication of how this season will go than anything we've seen so far. We've not flown out of the blocks this season but only City have. Chelsea have had poor results so far but our record there is horrible of late, if we could win there it would show something about this team.
Ultimately I agree Wenger should be sacked it we don't start competing for the league. But I don't think he deserves the level of criticism much less the disrespect he gets on here.
This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.
I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.
The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.
It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.
So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.
Power n Glory
18-09-2015, 09:25 AM
We already know Bellerin has great recovery speed. We knew Theo could finish and was one of the fastest players in football. Ramsey's engine and determination made him a first teamer before the ogre at Stoke broke his leg. And before Jack was effed, we saw his ability to beat guys in tight spaces. The great talents show quality when they are young. That is why clubs sign young talents. To accentuate their strength and boost up the areas they are weak at to make them a more complete player.
By you saying Ox isnt outstanding at anything shows that you dont rate him much either. He is basically Matthew Taylor. Scores the great goal from time to time but offers nothing else.
I don’t know if I’d count pace, stamina and determination as a talent or an indicator that they’ll be great in the future . That’s just genetics and a mentality. It’s not even something required to become a great football player. Ryo is supposed to be as quick as Walcott and just look where he is. We’ve had countless quick players that end up playing at Championship level so I wouldn’t even count that. Technical ability is more important to me and you’re right to point out Jack. He looked a tidy player. But it’s not as if Ox has a poor touch and can’t dribble either. He’s got the physical attributes such as pace and power, technically he’s pretty good. I don’t worry about his touch or dribbling, for me he’s a raw talent and it’s about sharpening up his decisions. He looks a far better player than what Theo and Ramsey looked when they first arrived but whether he develops into one is another question.
Also, Theo’s finishing was ok but never outstanding. He’s had to sharpen up.
Power n Glory
18-09-2015, 09:49 AM
This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.
I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.
The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.
It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.
So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.
:gp: Good luck.
Maestro
18-09-2015, 09:52 AM
This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.
I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.
The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.
It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.
So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.
you have the patience of a saint
Marc Overmars
18-09-2015, 09:53 AM
I think it's fair to say Oxlade relies more on his athleticism rather than technical ability but he's 22 and been dogged with injuries, he's shown enough to suggest he can develop here. Far too early to write him off.
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 09:55 AM
The idea the fans who are pointing out the negatives that are ongoing, season after season, are somehow lesser fans, or spoiled, or unappreciative of the positives is pure bullshit. What's the point of football from a fan's perspective? To compete and be entertained in the process. I haven't seen anyone demand we WIN the title, what I see is people demanding we COMPETE. Supposedly we have one of the top managers in the world, supposedly we have some of the best players in the world, supposedly we have a pile of cash coming in from hard pressed fans, a growing list of sponsors and a ballooning TV deal. Everything is in place to at least compete and there's plenty in place to do that in an entertaining fashion too. This manager and these players are not achieving what they ought to be achieving given the advantages they have at their disposal. Let's make excuses about dopers after we have ensured we've applied 100% effort ourselves, until then such excuses are lame and nothing more than a way to hide our own inadequacies. Let's not wave FA cups around the place as an excuse either. Has there been any fan that didn't enjoy and appreciate winning the cup? But it can't be used to beat the fans when they point out the failures elsewhere. And neither can fans be accused of impatience. Surely we're some of the most patient fans around, having swapped titles and glorious football for a decade of financial planning and rebuilding in order to actually achieve something at the end of that process. Patience is not eternal and nor should our manager have an eternity to deliver a result on the back of the considerable assets at his disposal. The game against Zagreb was like a summary of all the problems this manager brings on himself, just as was last season's game against Monaco - and so many others before. The asset pile keeps getting bigger, the results remain stagnant. So when is it valid on the eyes of the eternal believers to wake up and say, wait a minute, what the fuck?
Our mollycoddled manager and his little darlings need a boot up their arses now. What's the difference between Ferguson and Wenger? That boot. The one Beckham got in the head when he wasn't giving 100%. This is sport, it's not social work.
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 10:04 AM
This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.
I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.
The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.
It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.
So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.
Final 21 games in the run-in last season, if you exclude the last 6 and game #2.
Arsenal P14 W14 Pts42
Crewe P14 W0 Pts0
Manchester All-Stars Primary School P14 W0 Pts0
PLUS the FA Cup
PLUS we beat city in that game where the players told Wenger to fuck off
PLUS we finished higher than Wigan and if you asked their fans if they'd swap places with us what do you think they would say?
This season - above chelsea - the champions.
We're in the CL for the 21st season.
We've signed Ozil and Alexis and, while it's disappointing we haven't added any bullets to this gun, it's impossible to sign a striker.
We have Coquelin coming through who is so good he can play two roles in the middle while the rest of the team rush up-field in a haphazard manner.
But Wenger has to go :haha:
It's all Wenger's fault :haha:
Wenger's dick isn't delicious :haha:
Penguin
18-09-2015, 12:58 PM
We already know Bellerin has great recovery speed. We knew Theo could finish and was one of the fastest players in football. Ramsey's engine and determination made him a first teamer before the ogre at Stoke broke his leg. And before Jack was effed, we saw his ability to beat guys in tight spaces. The great talents show quality when they are young. That is why clubs sign young talents. To accentuate their strength and boost up the areas they are weak at to make them a more complete player.
By you saying Ox isnt outstanding at anything shows that you dont rate him much either. He is basically Matthew Taylor. Scores the great goal from time to time but offers nothing else.
Nonsense, he has the combination of pace, strength and dribbling ability that can can give full backs nightmares. To say he has no outstanding talents is just not true. He's still rough around the edges but the talent is definitely there. It's far too early to start writing him off. You can point to his age but the constant injuries have slowed down his progress.
Wenger has also slowed down his development by trying to turn him into another safe passing CAM clone. At Southampton he was known as a direct winger with a venomous shot. We saw that when he first signed for us too, he really can hit them. Then Wenger worked his magic and made Ox another cog in the tippy tappy machine instead of focusing on his two biggest strengths - his dribbling and his long range shooting. The good thing is that last season the direct runs were back and he ended up being one of our most dangerous attackers when he got a run in the team. Ox is the only player in our squad, other than Alexis, that can do that.
The defensive mistakes really need to stop but they are things that can be coached out. It's simple really, just stop taking risks in our own half. We've had the same problem with most of our young players including Ramsey and Wilshere. Take him to the side, give him a slap on the wrist and tell him that's why he's not starting the next game. It's frustrating and costly right now, but it's not a long term problem.
The two things that WILL make or break him as a player are his end product and his injuries. There's nothing that can be done about the injuries except pray that he doesn't do a Diaby on us. But I think there is potential there for goals. He knows he needs to score more, he even set himself a target of a goal or assist per game. That's ambitious (just a bit :lol:) but I think that's half the battle and if it gets him shooting more we'll see more goals. It's worth noting that a lot of players become goalscorers at their early to mid twenties: Ronaldo was 23 and Bale was 22, and they both had at least 2 or 3 seasons as regulars in the team first. This is the right time for Ox to start.
I'm not in this camp yet but I see where you are coming from. Ox is as responsible for his game as his manager, just like Theo and Ramsey. Players need guidance but they also have to take responsibility and learn wherever they can. It's injury record doesn't help him and as it stands if he left, I wouldn't lose sleep over it because under the current manager, he is only ever going to improve so much. Whether he'll gain those much needed improvements to his game elsewhere I don't know but it's too early to make a final call on him - at least he's making it onto the pitch more than Wilshere.
On Wenger's ability to improve players - Wilshere is a prime example. I do not rate Roy Hodgson - but the way Wilshere played for England prior to his latest injury embarrased our manager. As for the Ox, I fear for him a bit. I don't think he is being coached properly, and with Wenger's propensity to play Ramsey out of position where Ox plays (another player who has gone backwards from being player of the season a couple of years ago) I wonder whether he needs to move on to realise his potential fully. Theo has been with us since we first moved to the Emirates (can you believe that), and I think that another manager would have made him into a better player than he is.
Damn! He didn't spare any punches and it's downright embarrassing. I don't know why Wenger isn't embarrassed by this. Maybe the press need to stop sparing him with the soft questions and really dig into claims such as 'being unlucky' and the other team being 'committed'. Press him on it and find out if his brain is really working back there. Is he just being coy or is he an absolute fraud. These journalist are bloody lazy. They don't ask the right questions and they regurgitate soundbites from ex players, pundits and what's written on social media.
We have already seen other teams who beat Arsenal use the same tactics. This is a good way to beat them.
Sums it up, really. :sulk:
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 02:04 PM
On Wenger's ability to improve players - Wilshere is a prime example. I do not rate Roy Hodgson - but the way Wilshere played for England prior to his latest injury embarrased our manager. As for the Ox, I fear for him a bit. I don't think he is being coached properly, and with Wenger's propensity to play Ramsey out of position where Ox plays (another player who has gone backwards from being player of the season a couple of years ago) I wonder whether he needs to move on to realise his potential fully. Theo has been with us since we first moved to the Emirates (can you believe that), and I think that another manager would have made him into a better player than he is.
All our players need to move on if Wenger is staying long term. But if the incredible and impossible happens in 2017 and he decides (because it will be entirely up to him) to go then it will be quite exciting to see what a proper manager and coach can do with what is unquestionably an excellent array of raw talent. Particularly English raw and so far unpolished talent.
:hug: You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.
I basically agree with a lot of the above. I'd still like to leave it a little longer in this season before jumping to too many conclusions although I agree about the Groundhog Day nature of the last 10 years. That said, I've said endlessly why I see some glimmers of hope - players like Ozil and Sanchez, results like Old Trafford Cup Quarter Final and the FA Cup wins (which I don't accept were luck, I agree to an extent about some of the team being knocked out but there's always an element of luck in a Cup and last year we beat Utd away, the season before we played 3 of the top 6 - all at home, but still).
The last 2 years we've won the Cup and finished 4th then retained the Cup and finished 3rd. There have been frustrations but overall it's not been a bad 2 years. Last year we only finished below the two sides who have billionaires propping them up. People always say the billionaire thing is an "excuse" but the fact is they've mopped up most of the titles between them since they got going. Only Fergie has bested them both and as good as I think Wenger is, he's no Fergie. I do think now we have the new financial deals in place we can give them a run for their money though. As much as we all want to push on for the biggest prizes I think the level of moaning and hyperbole on here is way out of proportion to the situation. We lose, people moan. We win, people just moan about the performance instead.
I see the Chelsea game as a bigger indication of how this season will go than anything we've seen so far. We've not flown out of the blocks this season but only City have. Chelsea have had poor results so far but our record there is horrible of late, if we could win there it would show something about this team.
Ultimately I agree Wenger should be sacked it we don't start competing for the league. But I don't think he deserves the level of criticism much less the disrespect he gets on here.
I'm actually quite enjoying being back!
The problem with your glimmers of hope point is that this is part of the whole groundhog day thing. I would wager that almost every season since 2005 - and certainly for the past 3 years there have been reasons for hope. Long unbeaten runs; cup success; beating Citeh last season...but they have all been false dawns - what reason is there to consider that even a win against Chelsea will be any different. After all this win at their place
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/768409/2yls1gm.gif?_ga=1.134871410.2617437.1442583887
hilarious as it was - did not herald any real progress. Given that Chelsea have issues at present, I don't see why winning there will show that there is something about this team other than the ability to pull off the odd great result - which all of Wenger's teams have had for the past 10 years.
I think the real problem is Wenger's tactical shortcomings - and it is these more than anything else which are being laid bare on a regular basis. And given the status, position and renumeration as one of the world's top managers I think its perfecty fair to criticise what are such obvious failings in his approach.
As for our performance relative to other teams, I don't think its any defence of Wenger that other top teams apart from Citeh are struggling a bit. He has not had to cope with turnover in his players - and unlike Citeh or Manure (or even the Chavs, come to that) he had a league-topping in the 2015 calendar year team to build on - plus the inspiration of an FA cup. He has simply not done so - and has failed on a more general level to address our recent problem of an indifferent start to the league. He has failed to capitalise on the travails of Citeh; Manure; Liverpool - just as he failed to do so against the same teams (with Citeh this time in place of the Chavs) last time round.
And yes - there is always the 'billionaire' argument that we Gooners will roll out. Counter to that I would point out that when you take wages into account - we pretty much tend to finish where we would be expected to - given the investment in our team. In other words Wenger is not punching above his weight. Yes we finished 3rd rather than 4th last season, but that had more to do with Manure's fall from grace than any obvious progress. What was more telling for me was that we pretty much pissed away the chance to finish 2nd - which would have shown progress.
Most people - even on here - are not moaning for the sake of it. They are moaning because (2 enjoyable FA cups aside) they are disillusioned with a situation that never seems to change - but more to the point the manager's refusal to try to do so.
All our players need to move on if Wenger is staying long term. But if the incredible and impossible happens in 2017 and he decides (because it will be entirely up to him) to go then it will be quite exciting to see what a proper manager and coach can do with what is unquestionably an excellent array of raw talent. Particularly English raw and so far unpolished talent.
What would really be exciting would be if Wenger showed some humility and brought in a proper coach. Won't happen though...
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 02:10 PM
What was more telling for me was that we pretty much pissed away the chance to finish 2nd - which would have shown progress.
Whatever you do, don't mention the war!
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110929213001/hitlerparody/images/7/7f/Monty_Python_Hitler.jpg
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 02:12 PM
What would really be exciting would be if Wenger showed some humility and brought in a proper coach. Won't happen though...
I think we all tried saying that about 4 years ago didn't we? We've since moved on to other patently obvious things.
This is an issue I have put to you a few times and not once have you addressed it. Part of me thinks you are avoiding it so I thought I'd try one last time. As NQ has said above, many people have put forward well composed arguments, alongside some of the jokes that keep this place worth returning to. I've consistently read in your posts the mantra of how beating City and Utd away, our 'magnificent' run in the second half of the season and I'm assuming now this Chelsea game would be added to that if we got a point, not even a victory.
I've pointed out that over the past two seasons (which comprises this squad) where our issue in the league has come from, which is against the top 8. A group that make up the better teams in the league, a set of teams that have remained consistently in place over the past two seasons. With a small group outside the top quad of teams that offer more of threat to the top four and are in the running for a Europa position. So overall, clubs with a higher standard of player than everyone else below.
The run in the second half of the season illustrated similar failings, beating those in the lower half of the table and consistently dropping points against the better teams. As we did in the first half of the season. As we did in the previous season too. The amount of points we collected over those two seasons against the top 8 is also very similar, both around 17/18 points from 42. Saying that we tailed off at the end of last season because the focus was the FA Cup Final can't be true either - because in 13/14 we won our last five games of the season, unsurprisingly all against teams in the bottom half of the table. Last season in our last five before the final we got 7 from 9 against the lower teams and 1 from 6 against those in the top 8. It's hard to ignore the pattern.
It is absolutely clear that this squad and manager struggles to figure out ways to beat the better teams. That is a combination of his failings and a weak squad. Games against the top four have been a microcosm of that over the past number of seasons but when you extend it out to the other strong teams, the problem persists. Go out further to Europe and we all know that once we get beyond the group stage and the quality increases, we fail to step up.
So bearing all that in mind I'm curious how to know where these signs of progression in the league are being illustrated from your point of view. We may have new financial deals in place but if they are not being utilised to maximum effect it doesn't really offer much help. People do complain about performances when we win - and really, not just on this forum, you should go and look - because we are not playing very well. Doing just enough to get by, which doesn't inspire confidence in fans in a period when all the talk before the season started was about challenging for the title. We hardly look like a team that are capable of sustaining strong performances across an entire campaign. That is why people are worried. We look fragile and just as capable of winning or pulling out a result like Wednesday, or West Ham. We have been living on a myth that we still play great football, fed to the mainstream by numbskull pundits who churn out the easy and safe one-liners. If you watch our games consistently, there is nothing very exciting about the mostly slow, pedestrian approach to our play. That is another reason why fans complain about the performances. It all looks and feels very familiar to the patterns of previous seasons and the facts exist in our results to prove that is the case too.
:gp:
For me there is a simple reason for the trend that you have laid out so clearly. We have better players than all but the Manchester clubs and Chelsea. These players' talent will generally see them through against inferior teams - although we are seeing increasingly that 'lower' teams are now acquiring better players and managers with proper tactical nous (sorry Newcastle). Arsene struggles, however, against decent tactics - and without a bespoke tactical approach that maximises his own players' talents and negates other teams' his teams are effectively playing with one arm behind their backs. We saw how Alexis almost single handedly won us a heap of points last season. This is a worry, because it does not show a winning system, it shows an approach that relies on moments of individual brilliance. And such an approach simply cannot be relied on on a consistent basis.
I think we all tried saying that about 4 years ago didn't we? We've since moved on to other patently obvious things.
I agree - but honestly in a parallel universe where Arsenal has one the league 3 times in the past 5 years, this is what has happened. Because it would deal with almost all of the patently obvious failings at a stroke.
Niall_Quinn
18-09-2015, 02:47 PM
:gp:
For me there is a simple reason for the trend that you have laid out so clearly. We have better players than all but the Manchester clubs and Chelsea. These players' talent will generally see them through against inferior teams - although we are seeing increasingly that 'lower' teams are now acquiring better players and managers with proper tactical nous (sorry Newcastle). Arsene struggles, however, against decent tactics - and without a bespoke tactical approach that maximises his own players' talents and negates other teams' his teams are effectively playing with one arm behind their backs. We saw how Alexis almost single handedly won us a heap of points last season. This is a worry, because it does not show a winning system, it shows an approach that relies on moments of individual brilliance. And such an approach simply cannot be relied on on a consistent basis.
:hug: You should stick around, it's so nice to have a grown up to talk to.
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