EU Referendum

[Letters]

It'll be funny to see what happens if the petition reaches a large number than the difference between those that voted one way or the other (roughly 1.5 million I think).

It would be utter carnage if they decided to either ignore the result or declare a rematch.
It is arguable that a major decision shouldn't be made on the basis of a slender majority but that should have been stated up front but it wasn't.

[Power n Glory]

Look around and you'll see a few people now saying they regret their vote.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Cameron is an idiot, it was poorly devised.

[Power n Glory]

There should have never been a referendum. Cameron is a complete idiot for taking such a gamble.

[Özim]

It'll be funny to see what happens if the petition reaches a larger number than the difference between those that voted one way or the other (roughly 1.5 million I think).

I'm not sure what difference that would make, couldn't these people all be people who voted remain anyway which is a lot more than 1.5 million.

[Özim]

Look around and you'll see a few people now saying they regret their vote.

Allegedly, who knows if they are actually people who voted leave in the 1st place or remain people trying to get another referendum (some of the people who were remain and posted on social media seem a little unstable to say the least).

Besides I think even if these are genuine it's only a reaction from yesterday's events (pound falling etc) which maybe they didn't understand, it will of course settle down in time.

At the end of the day people voted, there was a result, people just need to accept that and move on, same as any normal election.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Well because I think that argument would then be used.

I personally think it's stupid, they should live with it, however things do change - Scotland's referendum was supposed to be a once in a generation vote, just two years on it is "highly likely" and now "on the table" for another.

[Letters]

There should have never been a referendum. Cameron is a complete idiot for taking such a gamble.

I think he had to offer it to placate some of the people making eyes at UKIP.
But he's massively cocked up the campaign, focusing far too much on scaremongering about what will happen if we leave - it plays right into the hands of those who want to stick 2 fingers up to the EU and the "bloody foreigners". He didn't do enough to expose the Leave side's lies for what they are. He ran an awful campaign.

[Letters]

Well because I think that argument would then be used.

I personally think it's stupid, they should live with it, however things do change - Scotland's referendum was supposed to be a once in a generation vote, just two years on it is "highly likely" and now "on the table" for another.

To be fair, the situation is now very different from the one in which the first referendum was held.
They, as a nation, voted to Remain (as did Northern Ireland, actually) but have been dragged out of the EU by England
They absolutely have a right to re-ask the question and I think this time we'll get a different answer.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Wales voted leave also. Sure I understand the rationale for it but purely on the chronology on it they knew this question was looming. It's not as though they didn't know this was a possibility.

[Letters]

True, but I don't think anyone actually expected it to go this way. :wacko:

[Power n Glory]

Allegedly, who knows if they are actually people who voted leave in the 1st place or remain people trying to get another referendum (some of the people who were remain and posted on social media seem a little unstable to say the least).

Besides I think even if these are genuine it's only a reaction from yesterday's events (pound falling etc) which maybe they didn't understand, it will of course settle down in time.

At the end of the day people voted, there was a result, people just need to accept that and move on, same as any normal election.

I think some will genuinely regret the vote because they didn't see this coming some how. You voted to leave but factored this day in as a consequence, you're confident about surviving through the uncertainty and voted accordingly. That's fair play.

But if you work in a volatile industry, can't really afford the increase on your shopping bill, etc....but voted out....:doh: What the heck were you thinking?

I accept the vote and I don't think another referendum is the answer. Live with the consequences.

[Letters]

Some people vote in a general or local election a certain way as a protest, they don't actually want who they vote for to win but they want to send the government a message. I think some may have done the same here - they probably didn't really think Leave would win, almost no-one did, and now they're somewhat regretting what they've done. It was a stupid logic if so, it was always going to be close and in a referendum every vote counts.
There was a spike of people Googling to try and find out the consequences after the polls had closed which rather indicates a lot of people hadn't really thought it through

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/06/24/britons-ask-google-happens-leave-eu-voting/#gref

:doh:

As a nation we like to stick two fingers up at foreigners, on this occasion we seem to have done so and simultaneously stuck them up our own collective arse.
But the result is the result.


There should be a test before you can vote.
Seriously.
I'm not sure I'd pass it, but still.

[Power n Glory]

I think he had to offer it to placate some of the people making eyes at UKIP.
But he's massively cocked up the campaign, focusing far too much on scaremongering about what will happen if we leave - it plays right into the hands of those who want to stick 2 fingers up to the EU and the "bloody foreigners". He didn't do enough to expose the Leave side's lies for what they are. He ran an awful campaign.

How do you appeal to someone that has that 'bloody foreigners' mentality and a UKIP supporter? They're a lost cause. They'd need longer than a few months to get them up to speed.

[Power n Glory]

Some people vote in a general or local election a certain way as a protest, they don't actually want who they vote for to win but they want to send the government a message. I think some may have done the same here - they probably didn't really think Leave would win, almost no-one did, and now they're somewhat regretting what they've done. It was a stupid logic if so, it was always going to be close and in a referendum every vote counts.
There was a spike of people Googling to try and find out the consequences after the polls had closed which rather indicates a lot of people hadn't really thought it through

http://thenextweb.com/insider/2016/06/24/britons-ask-google-happens-leave-eu-voting/#gref

:doh:

As a nation we like to stick two fingers up at foreigners, on this occasion we seem to have done so and simultaneously stuck them up our own collective arse.
But the result is the result.


There should be a test before you can vote.
Seriously.
I'm not sure I'd pass it, but still.

Our education system should be teaching how the political system works and how the economy works. In school, I didn't learn anything about our political system. It should be compulsory.

[Letters]

How do you appeal to someone that has that 'bloody foreigners' mentality and a UKIP supporter? They're a lost cause. They'd need longer than a few months to get them up to speed.

There are some people who will vote out no matter what, of course. But as I keep saying while all the racist idiots voted out, not all the people voting out are racist idiots. There were some good arguments for leaving and some good arguments for remaining. To be honest I don't think either side covered themselves in glory, Remain was a mixture of complacency and scare-mongering, Leave was a mixture of xenophobia and lies. But Remain failed to expose those lies, I think had they done so more effectively it would have swayed some people.

[Niall_Quinn]

True that. There are sour losers on both sides. And I suppose the inherent advantage the Leave side always had (just like the SNP did in their referendum) is that they had the option of simply requesting another referendum later down the line something that remain don't have because once you're out, you're out. It's difficult if nigh on impossible to get back in.

I think @IAmInvisible nailed it in the other thread when he said the optimal result would have been a narrow Remain win to scare the shit out of EU, to gain more concessions our way and perhaps, for them to seriously undergo reform. Oh well, what's happened has happened.



Anyway in other news the credit rating Moody's changes the UK forecast to negative and there's rumblings that S&P are about to cut our triple A bond rating. As much as I think all these agencies are a pack of corrupt cunts (the same fuckers giving Triple A ratings to Lehmann brothers right before the crash in 2008), the unfortunately wield a lot of influence and this will affect the interest on our long term debt bonds with the potential knock on effect of more austerity to budget for increases in debt interest payments.

Moodys and S&P are criminal organisations and the Police should be arresting their operatives that are on our territory. I wish we had leaders with guts who obeyed the law. In times past the bastards who are now going to try to undermine every man, woman and child in this country just because their gravy train was held up for 5 minutes, these bastard would be rounded up, staked down and burned.

Lots of shit that was going to happen anyway will now be pinned on the decision to leave. This will be done to provoke a weakening of the resolve in the British people. Don't weaken, stay resolute. You won, you won fair and square and now you hold the principle of democracy (for good and bad) against those who have already overtly cast it to one side in their quest for additional votes until the result is right, or other subterfuge methods of undermining the majority will.

Establishment instruments such as the BBC are using foul and obvious propaganda techniques to exaggerate the divide. They'll show the old, the uneducated, the tattooed skinhead - they'll mention UKIPs popularity in a region, these are your Leave campaigners. The racists, the senile, the haters. On the other side, youth, smiling virtue, auras and halos, calmness and smiles and clipped Oxford tones. These are the brethren dearly beloved of the EU.

Never forget, it is the EU that is racist - driving the poor Eastern Europeans and Middle East refugees into camps and into slave ghettos to service the industrialists and banksters. It is the EU that is anti-democratic. Unelected, unaccountable, secretive, operating entirely against the interests of the millions it ensnares. It is the EU that destroys employment, tearing down whole industries, replacing traditional labour with echelons of slaves. It is the EU that can't manage a currency. It is the EU that has a devastating track record of failure spanning decades. Look at the countries outside and compare them to those inside. Don't be told what you see - actually see. What do you see?

If you are enamoured with Europeans then good, that's a good thing. But the EU is not Europe. It is the cloud that has descended across that continent. You do not have to love that blight in order to respect a Frenchman or a German or a Romanian. You can do this without bowing to an unrepresentative bureaucrat. We have an opportunity to be united in a genuinely cooperative manner now - and that's what the profit skimmers are afraid of. They are terrified we'll find ways of trading and cooperating without a need for them. And that's precisely what we should do.

Identify the enemy. Root it out. Destroy it. The leave vote is just the first step in that process. Don't let it be rolled back. Don't allow it. Laugh in the face of the BBC. Kick a Moodys agitator. Piss on a bankster. It is and always has been us against them and they will do anything to preserve their position at the top of the pile, feeding off your labour and your ingenuity. The only way they can prevail is if we all fight each other instead of uniting and fighting them. If we do unite and fight then you'll see the true definition of a landslide. Half a billion against a handful. No competition and no doubt whatsoever about that result.

[Niall_Quinn]

Look around and you'll see a few people now saying they regret their vote.

Yes, I saw that propaganda strand being introduced into the media last night. It's clever in some ways but the core Leave vote is too strong to be harmed by it.

[Niall_Quinn]

It would be utter carnage if they decided to either ignore the result or declare a rematch.
It is arguable that a major decision shouldn't be made on the basis of a slender majority but that should have been stated up front but it wasn't.

It would. I'd be ready to fight on the streets and so would many more. Either we have democracy or we don't.

[Niall_Quinn]

Cameron is an idiot, it was poorly devised.

Or (and I don't believe this for a second) he could be viewed as a great British PM who had the guts to deliver choice to his people in the face of the overwhelming EU machine. If I was on his team (which I would never be) then that's how I'd be spinning it. The people would be begging for him not to leave if he had an advisor with a brain cell.

[Letters]

Yes, I saw that propaganda strand being introduced into the media last night. It's clever in some ways but the core Leave vote is too strong to be harmed by it.

Propaganda :lol:

I seriously can't tell if you're on the wind-up half the time.

[Niall_Quinn]

There should have never been a referendum. Cameron is a complete idiot for taking such a gamble.

Always a terrible idea to ask people what they want. Mush better to let our betters decide these things. After all, look where we are now. A pyramid debt economy about to explode. Racial tension across the globe. Wars, Famine. What a fine job our betters have done. I guess they deserved to get hyper rich in the process.

[Niall_Quinn]

Propaganda :lol:

I seriously can't tell if you're on the wind-up half the time.

The BBC message is very easy to deconstruct. It has to be because it needs to appeal to a broad audience. If you don't see it at all then it has worked as intended.

[Power n Glory]

Propaganda :lol:

I seriously can't tell if you're on the wind-up half the time.

I give up.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not sure what difference that would make, couldn't these people all be people who voted remain anyway which is a lot more than 1.5 million.

Of course. If it reached 46 million it would make no difference. This wasn't a vote for integration, we already had that. It was a vote for independence. Now we have that. They can't just run the same referendum again. Next time they will have to ask the British people if they want to hand away their independence.

[Niall_Quinn]

I give up.

On the one hand you support democracy. On the other you spin yarn each and every way to find a path around democracy. The racists, the fools, those who regret, is there any room left in there for people who knew what they wanted and voted that way? Or is that the sole preserve of Remain?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Or (and I don't believe this for a second) he could be viewed as a great British PM who had the guts to deliver choice to his people in the face of the overwhelming EU machine. If I was on his team (which I would never be) then that's how I'd be spinning it. The people would be begging for him not to leave if he had an advisor with a brain cell.

I'd be telling him he's a shithead. He doesn't know what football team he should be supporting, let alone the consequences of this decision.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think the fairest thing to do is give all those that voted to remain the same benefits of travel as an EU member. And I don't say this as someone that just got a passport three fecking days ago.

[Niall_Quinn]

Allegedly, who knows if they are actually people who voted leave in the 1st place or remain people trying to get another referendum (some of the people who were remain and posted on social media seem a little unstable to say the least).

Besides I think even if these are genuine it's only a reaction from yesterday's events (pound falling etc) which maybe they didn't understand, it will of course settle down in time.

At the end of the day people voted, there was a result, people just need to accept that and move on, same as any normal election.

The pound didn't fall. That's another myth. All it did was correct from a pre-vote surge. This is what I mean, you have to pick their propaganda apart. The pound sits higher than it did just a couple of months back. The markets have not crashed. In fact they are down in Europe. It is the Europeans pissing the bed. That Flanders woman upset the BBC last night by spilling way too many beans on what's happening in the markets. She won't be back. Also Hitchins caused a BBC drone to malfunction and abort by blurting out some truth (without so mach as a by your leave) before they could shut him down.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

The pound didn't fall. That's another myth. All it did was correct from a pre-vote surge.

:wacko:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think the fairest thing to do is give all those that voted to remain the same benefits of travel as an EU member. And I don't say this as someone that just got a passport three fecking days ago.

There won't be any restrictions on travel. You may have to flash a passport, just like in every practical sense you have to now as as ID, but British money is not going to be turned away from European markets. I really wouldn't worry about these things at all. Pure scaremongering. Look at Switzerland to see how it will work.

[Niall_Quinn]

:wacko:

Go and check the charts.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Go and check the charts.

Show me.

You can't say it didn't fall, if it has fallen. Are they just lying that it has fallen lower against the dollar for 30 years then?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is what they'll show you. CALAMITY:

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/6232/production/_90083152_ftse_fall_gra624.png


This is how the pound has been trading. BORING:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/12FD2/production/_90087777_sterling_historic_gra624-2.png

The pound is now at a very healthy rate. It seems to be free of any pre-bubble bloat and sits just below the average for the last 25 years.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

There won't be any restrictions on travel. You may have to flash a passport, just like in every practical sense you have to now as as ID, but British money is not going to be turned away from European markets. I really wouldn't worry about these things at all. Pure scaremongering. Look at Switzerland to see how it will work.

I said the same benefits of travel as you get now but I wasn't really being serious. Basically I mean not having to get another passport two years after just getting this one.

[Niall_Quinn]

Show me.

You can't say it didn't fall, if it has fallen. Are they just lying that it has fallen lower against the dollar for 30 years then?

By a fraction of a percentage and easily within the margin. In fact there was surprisingly little net change, although there was an up-down-up rollercoaster as vermin feasted on what they could find and the bank did a bit of counterfeiting.

No doom and gloom here I'm afraid. In fact if the pound can stay where it is it will be positioned optimally for importers/ exporters.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

This is what they'll show you. CALAMITY:

http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/6232/production/_90083152_ftse_fall_gra624.png


This is how the pound has been trading. BORING:

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/12FD2/production/_90087777_sterling_historic_gra624-2.png

The pound is now at a very healthy rate. It seems to be free of any pre-bubble bloat and sits just below the average for the last 25 years.

They aren't lying then.

[Niall_Quinn]

I said the same benefits of travel as you get now but I wasn't really being serious. Basically I mean not having to get another passport two years after just getting this one.

I know, but so many people now think they won't be able to go to Europe any more, or their European mate down the road will need to go home even though he's on the front lawn of his home.

[Niall_Quinn]

They aren't lying then.

They are absolutely lying. This is supposed to be a "plunge", a crash. Pure sensationalist bullshit. It was an unnatural rise, followed by a natural correction and then a very small dip as a limited number of investors who don't seem to understand that nothing actually happened yesterday panicked. Pure misrepresentation that nobody in the markets would have been fooled by but was instead intended to frighten the public.

[Kano]

It would be utter carnage if they decided to either ignore the result or declare a rematch.
It is arguable that a major decision shouldn't be made on the basis of a slender majority but that should have been stated up front but it wasn't.

No I don't think they would. People are idiots and make stupid decisions and the vast majority of us in the West are so neutered, conditioned and chained to our possessions that a revolution or anarchy would never come to the fore. There's too much to lose. The only time it could happen is within some sort of Hollywood-esque apocalyptic event wiping out the authoritative systems that we cling to and the cycle of leaders the human race always look toward. But that isn't going to happen and if the Government decided on a second referendum, it would absolutely happen, you think their decisions up until now have been based on what the people want? There would be some protests and loud voices but once contained and dampened down, the realisation would be that there are no real strength in numbers amongst ourselves. We've been divided into our own worlds and lives for too long for that to happen now. There are so many societal injustices that should have been resolved by now if the people were able to come together and had the true desire to resolve them but clearly we do not.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Look at the charts.

I honestly don't get you NQ, you have said grand things like taking back independence from shysters and crooks in Europe yet in the Tory die thread you also feel we're being governed by shysters and crooks. What's going to change? British shysters and crooks instead of European? It doesn't seem anything else.

[Niall_Quinn]

To be fair, the situation is now very different from the one in which the first referendum was held.
They, as a nation, voted to Remain (as did Northern Ireland, actually) but have been dragged out of the EU by England
They absolutely have a right to re-ask the question and I think this time we'll get a different answer.

Check your logic please.

The whole point of the Scottish referendum was to give the Scots the right to determine their own futures.

THEY SAID NO THANKS.

Now Britain as a whole has determined their future.

THEY GOT WHAT THEY WANTED. Somebody else decided for them.

And now they want to go back to Europe :doh:

So somebody else can again decide for them. I mean seriously, they seem to have some real problems up there deciding what they actually want.

[Niall_Quinn]

Look at the charts.

I honestly don't get you NQ, you have said grand things like taking back independence from shysters and crooks in Europe yet in the Tory die thread you also feel we're being governed by shysters and crooks. What's going to change? British shysters and crooks instead of European? It doesn't seem anything else.

Yes. Shysters and crooks down the road rather than a plane ride away. And fewer of them. That's very important. Now one cancer is cut out, time to move on to the next.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

They will be supplanted by others with your world view.

Move on to the next. Independence from a government at all?

[Niall_Quinn]

No I don't think they would. People are idiots and make stupid decisions and the vast majority of us in the West are so neutered, conditioned and chained to our possessions that a revolution or anarchy would never come to the fore. There's too much to lose. The only time it could happen is within some sort of Hollywood-esque apocalyptic event wiping out the authoritative systems that we cling to and the cycle of leaders the human race always look toward. But that isn't going to happen and if the Government decided on a second referendum, it would absolutely happen, you think their decisions up until now have been based on what the people want? There would be some protests and loud voices but once contained and dampened down, the realisation would be that there are no real strength in numbers amongst ourselves. We've been divided into our own worlds and lives for too long for that to happen now. There are so many societal injustices that should have been resolved by now if the people were able to come together and had the true desire to resolve them but clearly we do not.

Good post that one and getting to the real heart of it. But right now we aren't even in that vicinity. Those word are as alien to most as literal green men landing. But you have to at least move towards that realisation if you ever hope to get there. Don't expect better if you move in the opposite direction - which is what the EU is, the cementing of every horror and injustice we turn a blind eye to on a routine basis. People talk about immigration and numbers in the abstract. Real people aren't involved, not on either side of the debate. For one side they want to protect what they have, on the other they want to make some form of apology without looking at the seeping, bleeding raw vista of reality. Both sides are dishonest and cowardly, but in the carefully framed outlook with all the primary principles stripped away you can actually make a eunuch of an argument for either side.

Anyway, I don't think human beings are as bleak as you propose. Sometimes they are, and they are trapped in a bleak environment of their own making. But it is not impossible for that to change and surely human progress is the ongoing battle to see that change despite the odds? We should not abandon the hope of progress because it is hard.

[Niall_Quinn]

They will be supplanted by others with your world view.

Move on to the next. Independence from a government at all?

Yes, of course. Cycle after cycle after cycle. But in the churn new ideas will emerge and progress will be made. Slavery, a peasant's rights, women's rights, civil rights. These things did not rise out of stagnation. Great events provoked them. Stagnation is not healthy, you have to stir.

[GP]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/i-want-my-country-back

[GP]

It'll be funny to see what happens if the petition reaches a larger number than the difference between those that voted one way or the other (roughly 1.5 million I think).

Now closing on 1.2m

I don't think anything will come of it but that's a huge number.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/06/i-want-my-country-back

Well, Laurie old stick, answer me this. After 4 decades in this Euro Utopia - how come the place is such a shit hole, filled with gurning racists and gurning (I'm using it twice too) xenophobes and gurning (trumping you with three uses) white people? Why aren't we all like Jo Cox (praised be her name)?

For the first time ever - people are going to DIE because of this vote. People are going to SUFFER as a result of this vote. Fucking Enid Blyton! Look what she's done!

Fucking white British cunts! Fuck them! This is NOT my country!

[Özim]

The pound didn't fall. That's another myth. All it did was correct from a pre-vote surge. This is what I mean, you have to pick their propaganda apart. The pound sits higher than it did just a couple of months back. The markets have not crashed. In fact they are down in Europe. It is the Europeans pissing the bed. That Flanders woman upset the BBC last night by spilling way too many beans on what's happening in the markets. She won't be back. Also Hitchins caused a BBC drone to malfunction and abort by blurting out some truth (without so mach as a by your leave) before they could shut him down.

Oh yes I'm aware of this, but what I mean was that it was always going to suffer a bit after the exit from the EU, uncertainty will cause this, but yes the pound had been going up before the vote, but a lot of people just read the headlines of course.

The fall was marginal at worst overall.

[GP]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClydI3aWEAEcYp6.jpg

[Özim]

I think the fairest thing to do is give all those that voted to remain the same benefits of travel as an EU member. And I don't say this as someone that just got a passport three fecking days ago.

I'm not sure if you're joking or being serious.

But if you're being serious, if a conservative government has been voted in we don't then get a choice of being ruled by a labour government because we happened to have voted for them.

It would be a nonsense to have different rules for different people.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I'm not sure if you're joking or being serious.

But if you're being serious, if a conservative government has been voted in we don't then get a choice of being ruled by a labour government because we happened to have voted for them.

It would be a nonsense to have different rules for different people.

Oh dear. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not sure if you're joking or being serious.

But if you're being serious, if a conservative government has been voted in we don't then get a choice of being ruled by a labour government because we happened to have voted for them.

It would be a nonsense to have different rules for different people.

He's joking.

But there are some rather unfunny people emerging that are suggesting independence for London. As if, in some way, it has been under the heel of the oppressive heartlands. I thought they were joking, but apparently they are serious. Not content with the City being it's own financial Vatican, now they want the whole cess pit to be walled off. I'm not sure whether to take them up on it or not. Tempting.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Khembe Gibbons, a lifeguard from Bury St Edmunds in Suffolk, also said she had regrets about her decision after Mr Farage said he could not guarantee NHS funding.

"We've left the EU, David Cameron's resigned, we're left with Boris, and Nigel has just basically given away that the NHS claim was a lie,” she wrote.

"I personally voted leave believing these lies, and I regret it more than anything, I feel genuinely robbed of my vote."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-anger-bregret-leave-voters-protest-vote-thought-uk-stay-in-eu-remain-win-a7102516.html

If you're a weak swimmer, steer clear of Bury St. Edmunds.

[Niall_Quinn]

First time she's realised this :haha:

Does she think she wasn't robbed by lying politicians last time she voted?

[Munchies]

1.5m people on the petition now

The Leave campaign is wrong to say there'll be a 2nd referendum if we vote to remain in the EU. This is a referendum and not a neverendum.

https://twitter.com/David_Cameron/status/732562392131997697

:haha:

[fakeyank]

Any chance Brexit means Arsene Wenger's exit as well? #Wexit

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Any chance Brexit means Arsene Wenger's exit as well? #Wexit

I'll speak to my contact at the home office and see if there's any chance we can deny him a work permit. :coffee:

[fakeyank]

http://i68.tinypic.com/fjqpg8.jpg

[GP]

It'll be funny to see what happens if the petition reaches a larger number than the difference between those that voted one way or the other (roughly 1.5 million I think).

2.5 million now :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Sad London having withdrawal symptoms from the teat.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is hilarious:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659769/Anti-Brexit-protests-break-London-streets-petition-SECOND-EU-referendum-hits-1-5million-names-day.html

What we need to do now is take the piss out of these faggoty, bed-wetting, shrinking lilies who don't think they can survive without Nanny EU wet-nursing them. Smack the little drips if you see them. Tell them to man-up, or LGBT-up, or whatever they do.

[Munchies]

This is hilarious:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659769/Anti-Brexit-protests-break-London-streets-petition-SECOND-EU-referendum-hits-1-5million-names-day.html

What we need to do now is take the piss out of these faggoty, bed-wetting, shrinking lilies who don't think they can survive without Nanny EU wet-nursing them. Smack the little drips if you see them. Tell them to man-up, or LGBT-up, or whatever they do.


they want to fund more fat cats in Brussels

10k of their workers earn more than 140k lol

[Özim]

This is hilarious:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3659769/Anti-Brexit-protests-break-London-streets-petition-SECOND-EU-referendum-hits-1-5million-names-day.html

What we need to do now is take the piss out of these faggoty, bed-wetting, shrinking lilies who don't think they can survive without Nanny EU wet-nursing them. Smack the little drips if you see them. Tell them to man-up, or LGBT-up, or whatever they do.

:lol: People who voted remain spitting their dummies out because they didn't get what they want, OH BOO-HOO :upset:

People in London really think they own the country don't they, they really need a reality check and to realise that there's some things money can't buy.

[Özim]

He's joking.

But there are some rather unfunny people emerging that are suggesting independence for London. As if, in some way, it has been under the heel of the oppressive heartlands. I thought they were joking, but apparently they are serious. Not content with the City being it's own financial Vatican, now they want the whole cess pit to be walled off. I'm not sure whether to take them up on it or not. Tempting.

Yes I saw, it just shows how out of touch "the best city in the world ever" is with the rest of the country. They've had it too good for too long.

[Power n Glory]

they want to fund more fat cats in Brussels

10k of their workers earn more than 140k lol

:lol: Do you think the funds clawed back from Brussels will some how end up in the British public's pockets? The fat cats running this country have wrestled back and will pocket the money held by the fat cats in Brussels. It may cause a recession and economic uncertainty for some years to come but not to worry. The British public will be there to pay the difference and bump up those annual bonus pay slips for the ultra rich if they're unhappy with their returns. We've been doing it since 2008.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's all kicking off against Corbyn now.

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: Do you think the funds clawed back from Brussels will some how end up in the British public's pockets? The fat cats running this country have wrestled back and will pocket the money held by the fat cats in Brussels. It may cause a recession and economic uncertainty for some years to come but not to worry. The British public will be there to pay the difference and bump up those annual bonus pay slips for the ultra rich if they're unhappy with their returns. We've been doing it since 2008.

The remedy to fat cats here in the UK is certainly not an additional bag of fat cats from Brussels. If the British people can direct fire on distant EU palaces then they'll be able to hit London, don't worry.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's all kicking off against Corbyn now.

Looks like Hilary Blair is as big a chancer as Tony.

[Niall_Quinn]

Labour is finished. Not because of Corbyn but because it simply refuses to represent its traditional base. These arseholes are saying Corbyn has to go because he's out of touch with the public :doh: I thought when you "served" it generally meant you did what the fuck you were told. But I guess not.

[Power n Glory]

The remedy to fat cats here in the UK is certainly not an additional bag of fat cats from Brussels. If the British people can direct fire on distant EU palaces then they'll be able to hit London, don't worry.

:lol: The British people are directing fire at the migrants here in the UK. There are some dim people out there thinking they have their country back and all foreigners will be kicked out. It would probably take EU and non EU citizens being kicked out and England being isolated from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland before some of these idiots realise it's their government fucking them over. It's never been their country and the ruling class wouldn't fart on of these idiots chanting meaningless slogans. Clear out all the excuses and once there is no left to point the finger at they'll soon realise where they are in this society.

[Munchies]

Corbyn sacking Benn, MPs resigning left and right, Labour is a mess now!

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Jesus Christ, this is going to do so much for stability in this country! Cameron resigning, Labour in crisis and Scotland & NI trying to secede. :doh:

And Sturgeon and the Lib Dems are saying to just ignore the result of the referendum. :doh:


Never been a fan of Corbyn but this is all a bit premature tbh. My guess is that the Labour MP's see a GE coming soon and realise that they need a new leader if the want to stand a chance of winning because let's face it, there's no way in hell Corbyn is ever going to win a majority. The guy is way too left wing for the country.

Hope someone like Dan Jarvis gets it though if Corbyn is successfully ousted. Can appeal to Labours traditional base given his background and more centrist than Corbyn without going into full Blairite territory.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

What a fucking mess.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

What a fucking mess.

Nobody really thought this through.

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: The British people are directing fire at the migrants here in the UK. There are some dim people out there thinking they have their country back and all foreigners will be kicked out. It would probably take EU and non EU citizens being kicked out and England being isolated from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland before some of these idiots realise it's their government fucking them over. It's never been their country and the ruling class wouldn't fart on of these idiots chanting meaningless slogans. Clear out all the excuses and once there is no left to point the finger at they'll soon realise where they are in this society.

Keep believing that if you like.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

What a fucking mess.

It's not a mess, it's the prospect of real change. And if we are all afraid of that and if all we yearn for is the status quo then we are slaves. Seeing the political classes scrambling in such an undignified manner is tremendous. These bastards don't make decisions anyway, all they do is sell decisions that have already been made. Now their sales pitch is being examined. How is that a mess? It's long overdue progress.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I don't yearn for what has happened right now, that's for sure.

[Ollie the Optimist]

the SNP threatening to veto our exit.


Im sure if they vote for independence, they will accept the government vetoing it. I can't see them complaining about that whatsoever!!


Its amazing how many fail to grasp the concept of democracy. You can't have a vote and then say "oh we don't like that result, lets have another one until we get what we want" nor can you petition parliament to reject the will of the people.
Also, many need to understand that just because they are young, it doesn't make their vote more important then someone who is older. All votes are equal. If you want someone to vote your way, get out and convince them to instead of moaning on social media and calling them selfish.

[GP]

Sturgeon for PM!!

[Niall_Quinn]

the SNP threatening to veto our exit.


Im sure if they vote for independence, they will accept the government vetoing it. I can't see them complaining about that whatsoever!!


Its amazing how many fail to grasp the concept of democracy. You can't have a vote and then say "oh we don't like that result, lets have another one until we get what we want" nor can you petition parliament to reject the will of the people.
Also, many need to understand that just because they are young, it doesn't make their vote more important then someone who is older. All votes are equal. If you want someone to vote your way, get out and convince them to instead of moaning on social media and calling them selfish.

:lol: But you CAN have that. That's how the democratic EU always does it. Just keep voting until you vote the right way. As each day progresses more of these Remain types confirm they had no interest in democracy in the first place. That's why the support the EU of course. The most anti-democratic structure in the western world.

[Özim]

To be honest a political party's aim is to be in power so that they can implement their policies and make changes for the good, with Corbyn in charge they have no chance of ever being elected, so it's no surprise the rest of the party want him out, they probably realise this.

If Corbyn stays they'll lose the election, so I don't see the point of not challenging his leadership.

[Özim]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central

What a fucking mess.

They voted to stay part of the UK so they have to like it or lump it frankly, if you choose to stay you don't have a leg to stand on frankly, if they wanted to have control of their own country they should have voted out last year, they didn't so now it's tough luck.

[Özim]

:lol: But you CAN have that. That's how the democratic EU always does it. Just keep voting until you vote the right way. As each day progresses more of these Remain types confirm they had no interest in democracy in the first place. That's why the support the EU of course. The most anti-democratic structure in the western world.

The remain camp really has shown its true colours (not everyone of course), not interested in democracy, really only interested in themselves and making sure the money keeps rolling in, no thoughts for those people outside the rich areas who perhaps don't have it so easy and maybe haven't been able to find a job for years or struggle to get by.

The UK isn't just about the well off, it's just as much about the people who struggle to get by on a day to day basis because life hasn't handed them favourable hand or they weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Nobody really thought this through.

You can analyse this to death, and everyone will, but those five words have hit the nail on the head.

[Niall_Quinn]

The remain camp really has shown its true colours (not everyone of course), not interested in democracy, really only interested in themselves and making sure the money keeps rolling in, no thoughts for those people outside the rich areas who perhaps don't have it so easy and maybe haven't been able to find a job for years or struggle to get by.

The UK isn't just about the well off, it's just as much about the people who struggle to get by on a day to day basis because life hasn't handed them a silver spoon in their mouth.

They're all the racists who didn't know what they were voting for. Do you get that? They are racists on the one hand, but didn't know what they were voting for on the other.

Any old floundering around by the pro-EU mob, their arguments don't even need to make any sense provided they are LOUD.

[Niall_Quinn]

To be honest a political party's aim is to be in power so that they can implement their policies and make changes for the good, with Corbyn in charge they have no chance of ever being elected, so it's no surprise the rest of the party want him out, they probably realise this.

If Corbyn stays they'll lose the election, so I don't see the point of not challenging his leadership.

Contrary to that it's becoming increasingly clear the Labour Parliamentarians represent an entirely different sector of Britain than the Party membership. These snakes should form their own Party, Tory Lite or something, and see how many votes they get. They are using the authority of the Party to further an agenda that runs contrary to the values of that Party. So it's excellent news to see them slithering off (on the basis they get ushered straight back in if they win, of course), and it gives Corbyn the chance to stock the shadow cabinet with people who might at least make a good pretence of representing the base. These arseholes have to twist themselves in knots to make their incoherent arguments. Apparently Corbyn failed to deliver a Remain vote because British workers wanted out - so he has to go. And yet these arseholes who are pro-EU to a wanker need to rescue the Party from it's own members who wanted out. How does that work? Bet the BBC doesn't even ask.

[Nayan]

I hope Corbin stays. He represents the final disintegration of the Labour Party.

Nobody claims that the gains from being in the EU (and net net they have most certainly been gains) have been evenly spread around the country. Though it's not as uneven as your average New Statesman rant might spin- the income taxes paid on
city workers salaries go to build raids and pay for the Nhs of course.

Some morons saw boris and nige's lies about saving money for the nhs and fell for it. Anyone with any sense knew these folks were outside government and could not possibly make spending commitments. Others of a more fascist persuasion saw them talk about taking control of immigration but didn't stop to think that single market access a la norwaY meant signing up to the free movement of labour with even less control than at present. And let's face it the 'immigrants' your average stoke city supporter rages about are not white polish nurses- they just want the pakies out.

People are fond of banker bashing but the reality is that even after bailouts the service sector keeps Britain afloat. Germany and France rail against it but that's only because London dominates euro banking. Once they take control of it and the money is over there they will magically soften their stance.

Boris reckoned in the last debate that Germany wouldn't dare impose tariffs on the uk since we buy do many of their cars. This relies on us making all the money which like it or not hinges on our continued dominance in the service sector. That's about to fall apart - the Ecb already tried to deny Euro liquidity to London clearing houses on the grounds that we aren't in the eurozone. The agenda was clear and they only failed because London is in the EU single market. once we leave our main export market will be up for grabs.

Now I know some will find this patronising but with the best will in the world- go fuck yourselves: Folks in Sunderland and Wales conned into voting for xenophobia will see themselves making cars to sell to folks with no jobs. Still at least they'll have the regional EU regeneration grants to fall back on.

Oh no wait.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Labour membership's will - freshly endorsed by the massive vote of the working people of this country to leave the EU - confirms that Corbyn is the ONLY element of the Labour Party in touch with its own base. Now if that's not enough to win an election then fair enough, that's democracy. But to distort the whole notion of democracy by saying lets select a gang that doesn't represent the party is just weird. This means the aim is nothing more than power, and if you usher in bastards who only care about power and care nothing for who they represent then what have you gained?

Corbyn should go because he didn't have the GUTS to fully represent the membership by voting with them to leave the anti-worker EU.

All of London's arguments assume the status quo will remain in place, even as we see it on the retreat.

I don't get the arguments from the status quo crowd. When democracy is delivering them they exalt it to the extent they are prepared to bomb the shit out of people so they can have it too. But when democracy works against them then the people are thick, stupid, racist, unfit to make a choice. It's all a bit too transparent for my liking. The monied class has been punched in the gob, the very class that makes its money of the back of the workers it despises. Drive out jobs and crash the markets if that's what your tantrum requires, but don't expect your own privileged lifestyles to survive the fallout. Not unless you fuckers are prepared to - wait for it - WORK FOR A LIVING instead of skimming off the labour of others.

[Niall_Quinn]

More and more unknown politicians are quitting. Happy days. When do we get to the known ones?

[Nayan]

The democratic will of the people has spoken. Just like when it voted Hitler in for example.

I suspect that the underlying anger and willingness to blame it all on Johny foreigner has been the main driving force in British politics for some time. Promising an eu referendum got the tories a majority against all odds and now it surprised everyone in the referendum itself.

[Power n Glory]

I hope Corbin stays. He represents the final disintegration of the Labour Party.

Nobody claims that the gains from being in the EU (and net net they have most certainly been gains) have been evenly spread around the country. Though it's not as uneven as your average New Statesman rant might spin- the income taxes paid on
city workers salaries go to build raids and pay for the Nhs of course.

Some morons saw boris and nige's lies about saving money for the nhs and fell for it. Anyone with any sense knew these folks were outside government and could not possibly make spending commitments. Others of a more fascist persuasion saw them talk about taking control of immigration but didn't stop to think that single market access a la norwaY meant signing up to the free movement of labour with even less control than at present. And let's face it the 'immigrants' your average stoke city supporter rages about are not white polish nurses- they just want the pakies out.

People are fond of banker bashing but the reality is that even after bailouts the service sector keeps Britain afloat. Germany and France rail against it but that's only because London dominates euro banking. Once they take control of it and the money is over there they will magically soften their stance.

Boris reckoned in the last debate that Germany wouldn't dare impose tariffs on the uk since we buy do many of their cars. This relies on us making all the money which like it or not hinges on our continued dominance in the service sector. That's about to fall apart - the Ecb already tried to deny Euro liquidity to London clearing houses on the grounds that we aren't in the eurozone. The agenda was clear and they only failed because London is in the EU single market. once we leave our main export market will be up for grabs.

Now I know some will find this patronising but with the best will in the world- go fuck yourselves: Folks in Sunderland and Wales conned into voting for xenophobia will see themselves making cars to sell to folks with no jobs. Still at least they'll have the regional EU regeneration grants to fall back on.

Oh no wait.

:gp:

[Özim]

People are fond of banker bashing but the reality is that even after bailouts the service sector keeps Britain afloat. Germany and France rail against it but that's only because London dominates euro banking. Once they take control of it and the money is over there they will magically soften their stance.

If not for the bankers there wouldn't have been a need for a bailout, so they hardly kept the econony afloat then. They're doing noone but themselves a favour anyway, greed is their driving force not good.

Yes there's a lot of scaremongering, the UK is the worlds 5th biggest economy and it will survive and flourish in time, with or without the greed in the city, which may not be a bad thing as good honest, hardworking people may get more of a share.

[Özim]

The democratic will of the people has spoken. Just like when it voted Hitler in for example.

I suspect that the underlying anger and willingness to blame it all on Johny foreigner has been the main driving force in British politics for some time. Promising an eu referendum got the tories a majority against all odds and now it surprised everyone in the referendum itself.

Here we are again the immigration card, the one so many of the remain camp have been using on social media, a sadly narrowminded view, maybe this is a thinly veiled attempt to hide their main reasons for remaining in the EU, self gain.

[Nayan]

bank bailouts cost maybe 50billion and half of that came back having stabilised the system. one of a small list of good decisions made by a labour government. Brexit instantly destroyed a good 350billion.

The export revenues generated and taxes paid in the past by banks and more importNtly on the incomes of those who work for them basically keep the country afloat and have done for a long time. once that goes we will be nowhere near 5th biggest economy in the world.
if you don't like bankers and insurers I don't blame you. just don't kid yourself that UK plc can get by without them. it really doesn't excel at much else.

[Özim]

A country adapts to it's changing environment, it's the way of the world, rich people find other ways to stay rich, big economies replace lost revenue with new streams, that's assuming this scaremongering regarding the financial sector actually occurs, in the end these may all turn out to be empty threats aimed at forcing people to vote the way they wanted them to.

If a few leave so be it, they'll be replace by others, London doesn't suddenly become a less desirable place because a few bankers say so.

Relying on the financial sector which has shown its vulnerability is not a good thing anyhow, never put all your eggs in one basket, we saw what happened in 2008 after all, lessons to be learnt and all that.

[Özim]

Contrary to that it's becoming increasingly clear the Labour Parliamentarians represent an entirely different sector of Britain than the Party membership. These snakes should form their own Party, Tory Lite or something, and see how many votes they get. They are using the authority of the Party to further an agenda that runs contrary to the values of that Party. So it's excellent news to see them slithering off (on the basis they get ushered straight back in if they win, of course), and it gives Corbyn the chance to stock the shadow cabinet with people who might at least make a good pretence of representing the base. These arseholes have to twist themselves in knots to make their incoherent arguments. Apparently Corbyn failed to deliver a Remain vote because British workers wanted out - so he has to go. And yet these arseholes who are pro-EU to a wanker need to rescue the Party from it's own members who wanted out. How does that work? Bet the BBC doesn't even ask.

Corbyn's views are commendable, the issue however is that the when all is said and done a charismatic leader is a must to win an election as has been proven in the past and he lacks this quality required to ever get himself elected.

Thus labour can keep him as the head of the party and accept they will never be heard or find someone who can lead them and appeal to the greater public. In the end without being in power, you have little hope of changing things for the greater good.

In the end he was elected democratically, though the opinion may have changed after he went against his beliefs by supporting the remain campaign when in reality he has always been a eurosceptic, a somewhat hypocritical stance, ultimately a leader should first and foremost stand by his or her beliefs.

[Özim]

2nd referendum petition investigated for Fraud, oh dear:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407

[Nayan]

2nd referendum petition investigated for Fraud, oh dear:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407

it was never going to achieve anything beyond a bit of market research for continued Euro support. Amusing though

[Nayan]

sturgeon is an interesting one.

Scotland voted to stay I. the U.K. and the U.K. voted to quit the EU. end of. she has no basis to veto anything.

in practice holy rood can make a song and dance about being told to ratify an eu e it that Scottish people as a whole do not support and use that to help make a case for their second independence referendum. I'm not sure she'll get one though.

[Nayan]

Here we are again the immigration card, the one so many of the remain camp have been using on social media, a sadly narrowminded view, maybe this is a thinly veiled attempt to hide their main reasons for remaining in the EU, self gain.

Thinly veiled would better describe farage posturing in front of a picture of brown skinned refugees. Now some will claim this is a point about Syrian asylum seekers getting into Europe and then moving here (though eu law dictates they get asylum in the country where they come into the Eu).

in practice this is a blatant appeal to racists along the lines of 'fed up with pakis getting council houses? vote for us!' all the guff about controlling immigration? the immigrants from the Euro are all white and if you want the single market you have to keep letting them on anyway! the farkies come from elsewhere. Farage reckons they all have aids but the reality is they are needed to keep the nhs running.

So it's all been a con anyway. A thinly veiled racist one, but a con nonetheless. In fact even Michael Goevels said he shuddered when he saw it. That says it all

we can go on pretending it was about workers rights or poking the liberal intelligentsia in the eye or we can see it for what it is. A toxic cocktail of nationalism and socialism. Hold on that rings a bell from some place...

[Letters]

They are absolutely lying. This is supposed to be a "plunge", a crash. Pure sensationalist bullshit. It was an unnatural rise, followed by a natural correction and then a very small dip as a limited number of investors who don't seem to understand that nothing actually happened yesterday panicked. Pure misrepresentation that nobody in the markets would have been fooled by but was instead intended to frighten the public.

It was a rise based on the fact that the markets expected a Remain win, as soon as the vote came in the pound tanked. Of course there was some rebound as the vultures circled and made some money on the back of it but the net result was still quite a big loss and it IS the lowest it's been for 30 years, your chart shows that.

[Letters]

No I don't think they would. People are idiots and make stupid decisions and the vast majority of us in the West are so neutered, conditioned and chained to our possessions that a revolution or anarchy would never come to the fore. There's too much to lose. The only time it could happen is within some sort of Hollywood-esque apocalyptic event wiping out the authoritative systems that we cling to and the cycle of leaders the human race always look toward. But that isn't going to happen and if the Government decided on a second referendum, it would absolutely happen, you think their decisions up until now have been based on what the people want? There would be some protests and loud voices but once contained and dampened down, the realisation would be that there are no real strength in numbers amongst ourselves. We've been divided into our own worlds and lives for too long for that to happen now. There are so many societal injustices that should have been resolved by now if the people were able to come together and had the true desire to resolve them but clearly we do not.
I dunno. There is a really toxic atmosphere in this country right now, the decision has been made (swung by idiots, based on lies) and now we all have to live with it :(

[Letters]

Check your logic please.

The whole point of the Scottish referendum was to give the Scots the right to determine their own futures.

Will do....yep, checks out.

The original vote was based on them part of being in a UK that was part of the EU.
They, as a country, have now voted to remain in the EU but have been over-ruled by England.
The situation has now changed significantly, it's completely understandable that they want to ask the question again and I suspect we'll get a different result.

[Niall_Quinn]

Total and absolute denial by this Remain lot. Bunch of sissies. It's going to be very hard to reconcile with a bunch of ninnies who are blubbering like babies because nanny has been sacked.

[Letters]

Oh yes I'm aware of this, but what I mean was that it was always going to suffer a bit after the exit from the EU, uncertainty will cause this, but yes the pound had been going up before the vote, but a lot of people just read the headlines of course.

The fall was marginal at worst overall.

http://www.x-rates.com/graph/?from=GBP&to=USD&amount=1

A one day fall like that is almost unheard of, it has to be a seismic political event to cause it.
It will be interesting to see what happens this week, whether it stabalises or continues to go down.

[Letters]

Total and absolute denial by this Remain lot. Bunch of sissies. It's going to be very hard to reconcile with a bunch of ninnies who are blubbering like babies because nanny has been sacked.

It's interesting you say "total and utter denial" when you said it was a "lie" that the pound went down and then proceeded to show charts showing it did. :blink:

[Letters]

:lol: People who voted remain spitting their dummies out because they didn't get what they want, OH BOO-HOO :upset:

People in London really think they own the country don't they, they really need a reality check and to realise that there's some things money can't buy.

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12

[Letters]

Its amazing how many fail to grasp the concept of democracy. You can't have a vote and then say "oh we don't like that result, lets have another one until we get what we want" nor can you petition parliament to reject the will of the people.
Agreed.


All votes are equal.
And that, right there, the flaw with democracy. Because actually, not everyone's opinions are equally valid.
For example, MrsL's opinion about whether we should start Vardy tomorrow is not as valid as mine, simply because she doesn't watch any football and has no interest in it. Would you let her be part of the decision making process about that? What's she going to make the decision based on, whether he has nice legs?
And actually my opinion is not as valid as someone who watches a LOT of football (Hi, Maccy) and has more insight and experience than me.

I remember years ago there were some rumblings about a referendum about joining the Euro and I just thought "don't ask me! I didn't even pass Economics at school". Let people who actually understand the implications of the decision make the decision - which doesn't mean they're always right, and they're not "our betters" but they have a better chance than me of understanding all the implications and making the right call. I don't want people who would vote against it because of the "bloody Frogs" with no clue about the economics of it all having a say.

There were good, intelligent reasons for staying and for leaving. But there were some bloody stupid reasons for leaving too. I do quite seriously think there should be a test before you can vote. I realise I'm on dodgy ground here but if you can't get through your thick head that "£350 million a week could be spent on the NHS" is a lie then sorry, you shouldn't be getting a vote. And maybe I wouldn't pass the test either but the whole idea that everyone has an equally valid opinion is completely flawed.

[Özim]

It was a rise based on the fact that the markets expected a Remain win, as soon as the vote came in the pound tanked. Of course there was some rebound as the vultures circled and made some money on the back of it but the net result was still quite a big loss and it IS the lowest it's been for 30 years, your chart shows that.

Market uncertainty, it's not at it's lowest anymore so it recovered quickly, there's actually not a massive difference between now and a month ago from what I can see (I changed some pounds to Euros a few weeks back).

This was seen a big decision, so the drop wasn't unexpected based on that, markets don't like uncertainty.

[Letters]

The remain camp really has shown its true colours.
As have the Leave camp, already admitting the £350m a week thing was a lie (or a 'mistake' as they put it, whoops, we just painted it on the side of our bus by mistake, soz) and that reducing immigration probably isn't possible too.
Remain ran an awlful campaign letting them get away with that sort of crap.

[Özim]

http://www.x-rates.com/graph/?from=GBP&to=USD&amount=1

A one day fall like that is almost unheard of, it has to be a seismic political event to cause it.
It will be interesting to see what happens this week, whether it stabalises or continues to go down.

Yes because how often do we get to vote for something like this, there's very rarely an event like this, so it's no surprise it dropped like it did.

[Özim]

As have the Leave camp, already admitting the £350m a week thing was a lie (or a 'mistake' as they put it, whoops, we just painted it on the side of our bus by mistake, soz) and that reducing immigration probably isn't possible too.
Remain ran an awlful campaign letting them get away with that sort of crap.

Well I was referring to the people who voted remain more than anything else and some of their opinions.

As for immigration it was never about stopping it, merely about controlling it and they've stated we would have more control so that's not correct. The 350 million wasn't something I even considered, just used common sense and some information I researched.

How many people voted remain out of fear, fear of change and uncertainty and due to scaremongering? We'll never know but I suspect just as many as those who voted leave due to sensationalist stuff you've just mentioned.

[Letters]

Yes because how often do we get to vote for something like this, there's very rarely an event like this, so it's no surprise it dropped like it did.

That's right, but why are people now saying it didn't or that it stabalised. It didn't.
It was an unusual event, it caused an unusual fall. It will be interesting to see what happens this week

[Özim]

I'll just leave this here.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nigel-farage-eu-referendum_uk_576e6585e4b08d2c56393f12

Politician in BS shock.

He's outspoken not really a surprise, wouldn't have changed anything even if it had been the other way round, the population has spoken and that's the end of it, whatever a politician may or may not have said.

[Özim]

Agreed.


And that, right there, the flaw with democracy. Because actually, not everyone's opinions are equally valid.
For example, MrsL's opinion about whether we should start Vardy tomorrow is not as valid as mine, simply because she doesn't watch any football and has no interest in it. Would you let her be part of the decision making process about that? What's she going to make the decision based on, whether he has nice legs?
And actually my opinion is not as valid as someone who watches a LOT of football (Hi, Maccy) and has more insight and experience than me.

I remember years ago there were some rumblings about a referendum about joining the Euro and I just thought "don't ask me! I didn't even pass Economics at school". Let people who actually understand the implications of the decision make the decision - which doesn't mean they're always right, and they're not "our betters" but they have a better chance than me of understanding all the implications and making the right call. I don't want people who would vote against it because of the "bloody Frogs" with no clue about the economics of it all having a say.

There were good, intelligent reasons for staying and for leaving. But there were some bloody stupid reasons for leaving too. I do quite seriously think there should be a test before you can vote. I realise I'm on dodgy ground here but if you can't get through your thick head that "£350 million a week could be spent on the NHS" is a lie then sorry, you shouldn't be getting a vote. And maybe I wouldn't pass the test either but the whole idea that everyone has an equally valid opinion is completely flawed.

There's stupid reasons for staying too, so it swings in roundabouts, a lot of the remain are just as ignorant, you make it sound like it was just some of the leave that voted without researching it which is nonsense really.

[Letters]

How many people voted remain out of fear, fear of change and uncertainty and due to scaremongering? We'll never know but I suspect just as many as those who voted leave due to sensationalist stuff you've just mentioned.
Yes, I think that's a valid point.
As I said above, democracy is based on the idea that everyone's opinion carries the same weight and IMO that is completely flawed. Maybe the stupidity evens itself out though.

[Özim]

That's right, but why are people now saying it didn't or that it stabalised. It didn't.
It was an unusual event, it caused an unusual fall. It will be interesting to see what happens this week

I think the point was that the drop was in part a correction of a rise based on expectations of a particular result, so the drop wasn't as dramatic when put into context.

[Özim]

Yes, I think that's a valid point.
As I said above, democracy is based on the idea that everyone's opinion carries the same weight and IMO that is completely flawed. Maybe the stupidity evens itself out though.

In the end everyone is allowed a vote, it's a democratic right, and they can choose to do whatever they wish to do with it, to some extent it's up to politicians to educate people on why it's best to vote one way or another, they obviously do a poor job on both sides because they are more interested in winning.

In the end though as I said it works both ways so as you said it probably balances itself out.

[Letters]

I think the point was that the drop was in part a correction of a rise based on expectations of a particular result, so the drop wasn't as dramatic when put into context.

But it wasn't a correction. It is well below where it was before that rise which was based on expectations of a Remain result.
As I said let's see what happens this week.

[Özim]

But it wasn't a correction. It is well below where it was before that rise which was based on expectations of a Remain result.
As I said let's see what happens this week.

It was in part as it rose due to an expected remain vote. As mentioned looking at the rate it's not hugely different from a month ago when I changed some sterling into Euro's, the rate change is minimal.

In the short term this was always going to happen, so nothing unexpected.

[Özim]

As for Scotland, they knew of an EU referendum when they voted to stay in the UK last year, if they didn't want to risk being out they should have voted out of the UK then, they didn't so now they have to live with the vote, you can't just change your mind because your vote doesn't go the way you thought, you voted that's it, you don't get a 2nd chance.

I've never heard so much nonsense about, a new vote, separating from the UK (both London and Scotland), veto-ing a result than I've heard recently. It makes a mockery of the voting system and democracy.

Seems to me if some people don't get what they want they throw their toys out of the pram, usually the behaviour of a spoilt child who's had his way for too long.

[Letters]

It's about 7% different from a month ago. Fairly significant. And that was just one day's reaction, some forecasts suggest it will go lower this week but we'll see.
We can go round the Scotland loop again and again if you like. Yes the referendum was known about but I doubt it would have been a factor in their decision - I don't remember it being mentioned in the campaign.
The situation is clearly different now, they have a case for a 2nd referendum, especially given the way Scotland voted, and I expect them to get it and it to give a different result.

The whole thing is bloody chaos, but maybe a bit of chaos isn't a bad thing in terms of shaking things up a bit.

[Ollie the Optimist]

one thing i do wish is for the young generation to stop blaming the older generation for voting to leave and ruining their futures. Ignoring the fact that i believe our futures will be better off outside the EU, under 40% of 18-25 year olds bothered to vote. if they want to blame anyone, blame their generation for not bothering to vote.

[Özim]

It's about 7% different from a month ago. Fairly significant. And that was just one day's reaction, some forecasts suggest it will go lower this week but we'll see.
We can go round the Scotland loop again and again if you like. Yes the referendum was known about but I doubt it would have been a factor in their decision - I don't remember it being mentioned in the campaign.
The situation is clearly different now, they have a case for a 2nd referendum, especially given the way Scotland voted, and I expect them to get it and it to give a different result.

The whole thing is bloody chaos, but maybe a bit of chaos isn't a bad thing in terms of shaking things up a bit.

That's pretty marginal, not a huge fall, certainlly not the massive fall some people believe it is.

As for Scotland, ignorance is no excuse, everyone knew about the referendum so it should have been a factor in their vote if they didn't want to risk leaving.

I've got no sympathy, they've chosen to stay part of the UK (despite the Scottish politicians best efforts to get them to leave), they didn't have to, clearly they didn't fancy going it alone.

The scottish referendum was largely based on three things, the economy, the currency and the EU, two of those remain an issue.

People feared Scotland would struggle on its own, nothing has changed in that respect.

[Niall_Quinn]

In the end everyone is allowed a vote, it's a democratic right, and they can choose to do whatever they wish to do with it, to some extent it's up to politicians to educate people on why it's best to vote one way or another, they obviously do a poor job on both sides because they are more interested in winning.

In the end though as I said it works both ways so as you said it probably balances itself out.

Just ignore him. he spent half the time before the vote telling me he couldn't understand why I wouldn't vote. Never a mention of the flaws in democracy, just a blind logic that whoever didn't play along was flawed. Now it's the reverse, democracy is no good, flawed. I'm the one who has been telling everyone else that democracy is a pile of shit, always to howls of derision. Now suddenly I'm right without being right. Democracy is flawed after all, but only in this one instance.

[Letters]

Again, that was just 1 day's reaction. Let's see where we are over the next few weeks and months.
Whatever you think, Scotland will probably get a 2nd vote and I suspect it will go the other way.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's pretty marginal, not a huge fall, certainlly not the massive fall some people believe it is.

As for Scotland, ignorance is no excuse, everyone knew about the referendum so it should have been a factor in their vote if they didn't want to risk leaving.

I've got no sympathy, they've chosen to stay part of the UK (despite the Scottish politicians best efforts to get them to leave), they didn't have to, clearly they didn't fancy going it alone.

The scottish referendum was largely based on three things, the economy, the currency and the EU, two of those remain an issue.

People feared Scotland would struggle on its own, nothing has changed in that respect.

Don't bother with the Scotland thing either. He doesn't get that the Scots has a straight vote on SELF DETERMINATION. They said no. Now somebody else has decided for them. WHAT A FUCKING SURPRISE! Who could have guessed? I was 100% behind Scottish independence at the time and almost EVERYONE else was against it. I was for it on principle. Most everyone was against, I suspect, on pure self interest again. Now after the latest referendum Scots have the huff because they haven't been able to determine their own outcome. They can't seem to connect the two things and neither can the Remain lot who argues one way one minute and the exact reverse the next. You won't get any consistency out of them, just convenience.

And as for the pounds "plunge" and the economy's "collapse", well we all know that didn't happen. So the goal now is to pretend it happened anyway. It's still be reported on the BBC, Britain votes Leave, Markets Collapse. What they don't say is it's not our market collapsing, it's Europe's. And we'll see that trend continue through the next two years, no doubt, as the EU horror show continues to implode. We got off that sinking bitch in the nick of time.

[Letters]

Tag team WUMming :bow:

:lol:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Again, that was just 1 day's reaction. Let's see where we are over the next few weeks and months.
Whatever you think, Scotland will probably get a 2nd vote and I suspect it will go the other way.

I don't think they will. Remember they don't actually have a majority in the scottish parliament and i don't see this conservative government allowing it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Again, that was just 1 day's reaction. Let's see where we are over the next few weeks and months.
Whatever you think, Scotland will probably get a 2nd vote and I suspect it will go the other way.

I hope Scotland DOES get a second vote and I hope they vote to leave. Good luck to them. I have nothing against the Scots at all. Like them in fact. Good bunch whenever I've bumped into them. I hope they get their independence and can sort out their own shit because that means the gap between myself and the fuckwits in Westminster will be that little bit smaller, and that's the system I believe in. Me in their faces.

[Niall_Quinn]

Tag team WUMming :bow:

:lol:

Us racists stick together.

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh6EQ5gv7g

[Power n Glory]

http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2016/06/after-referendum


A weaker pound will also lead to higher inflation. Two things can happen in response. Either wages can rise in compensation, in which case business costs will rise and the competitive advantage of devaluation will be eroded. Or wages won’t rise and people's living standards will be eroded. So a Leave campaign fuelled by voter anger over squeezed living standards will result in a further squeeze in those living standards.

Sums up how this will effect the everyday person if we don't sort this mess out. I'm no sure how quickly the pound will recover considering we have no political leadership that wants to assume responsibility, the opposition are falling apart and attempting a coup at the worst moment, Scotland are talking about a referendum....all this uncertainty won't help our recovery. Heck, we still haven't recovered from the last financial crisis and we're supposed to be lowering the deficit. It's bad timing and I can't see how every day people won't feel the pressure.

[Niall_Quinn]

We're all going to die!!!!!!! :-(

[Kano]

Corbyn going nowhere by the looks of things and will stand again for the leadership if it comes down to it, probably winning once more. Excellent news. This infighting is a delight to watch unfold. Meanwhile the Lib Spengs aiming to build their next GE campaign on the UK rejoining the EU :lol:

[Power n Glory]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gybrn6XLh0

As said, nobody thought this through. :doh:

[GP]

What a fuckup.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gybrn6XLh0

As said, nobody thought this through. :doh:

Those puppets in parliament will receive their instructions in due course, when they are done with their selfless in-fighting. The banks, the central bank, the major corporations and industries already have their plans in motion - not that much will need to change. It's becoming clear now that what's going to happen is a drawn out process of ignoring the vote. It's of little concern. This wasn't just a vote against the EU, it was also a vote of no-confidence in the entire establishment and provided that sentiment is maintained then the EU will be destroyed one way or another and perhaps, as a bonus, we'll see the back of the Westminster bubble too. London has revealed its shabby underbelly during this process, confirming the suspicions that many will have already had regarding the true state of democracy in this plutocracy. Interesting times ahead and it's good to know that the bed-wetters are now in a minority. I'm not sure that has been the case for a long time. It's not much, but it's turned and heading in the right direction.

[Grebbo]

People are reacting as if the EU is some kind of magical place and we've just walked away from something beautiful. Ignore the noise and remember that the EU only greatly benefits Germany. We import more from the EU than we export so they'll set up a trade agreement with us sharply. 1 in 5 Mercedes are sold in the UK etc.

I'm probably the opposite of most voters in that I think the free movement policy is great. But it is very bad for poor people, it keeps wages low and puts tremendous pressure on house prices, rents etc etc.

[Letters]

No, people who voted Remain simply think that the EU overall, for all it's problems, did us more good than harm and we are worse off for having decided to leave.

[Niall_Quinn]

Now comes the reality.


German manufacturers last night demanded that Britain be allowed to continue trading with the EU without any barriers.

The car-making industry said punishing Britain makes no sense – and it called on the German chancellor to give the UK a favourable trade deal.

Eurosceptics have repeatedly argued it is not in the EU’s interests to bring in tariffs as the UK imports more from Europe than it exports, and any weakening of the British economy would also have a ripple effect on Europe.

Matthias Wissmann, of the German Association of the Automotive Industry (VDA), said: ‘Even if many “experts” are competing to paint the worst possible scenario, now is the time for calmness.

‘Every possible measure must be undertaken to enable the continued free movement of goods and services between the UK and the other EU countries. Following British departure from the EU, it will be in nobody’s interest to make the international flow of goods more expensive by erecting customs barriers between Britain and the European continent.’

Germany sells more cars to Britain than to any other country, with 810,000 exported last year, Mr Wissman said. And half of the 2.6million cars made in Britain last year were built by German-owned firms such as BMW, which runs Mini and Rolls-Royce.

Mr Wissman said: ‘We should do everything we can to ensure that this success story will be continued. Now it is up to Brussels to take action.’

Energy firm E.ON, which is based in Dusseldorf, is also lobbying against new customs barriers. Chief executive Johannes Teyssen said that ‘as far as possible’ EU leaders should aim to retain a ‘single market for goods and services for the British’.

Office for National Statistics figures show the gap between Britain’s EU exports and imports widened to £23.9billion in the first three months of this year– a record high. In 2000, 60 per cent of UK exports went to EU nations, but last year it was just 47 per cent.

German chancellor Angela Merkel has said there is ‘no reason to be nasty’ in Britain’s exit negotiations. Yesterday European leaders accepted it may take months for Britain to begin the process of leaving the EU as it is facing a ‘very significant political crisis’.

Under the Lisbon Treaty, EU countries can leave through a process called Article 50, though it has never been used before. Triggering it starts a two-year clock for negotiating a formal exit.

European Parliament members had been pushing for David Cameron to trigger the exit process when he attends a Brussels summit tomorrow.

But last night diplomats from all 27 other member states agreed that it was unrealistic to formally begin exit negotiations until a new Prime Minister has been appointed.

The EU said yesterday that no negotiations could begin until the process was started formally, and officials warned that the UK would not be able to finalise a trade deal until after its exit.

European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker yesterday suggested Ukip’s MEPs should immediately give up their seats. He told German newspaper Bild that he ‘can imagine that they will not stay any longer than they have to’.

This is the REAL economy. Goods and services. The Remain lot sitting there praying for a market collapse are looking in the wrong place. Stock markets and currency markets are casinos. Nothing gets destroyed except imaginary expectations and everything is short term. But in the world of commerce the long term prevails, that's where stability comes from. Germany will foot the bill for the UKs exit, so the last thing they'll want to see is collapse in favourable trade with the UK because some sour puss puppet in a parliament is offended. Won't happen and was never going to happen. Companies like Volkswagen and E.ON control the EU Commission. It will be these companies that decide what happens, and Britain's major companies sit at that table too. They will carve up the pie as normal and on we will go.

Look around you. Really see what's happening. No EU, no Tories, no Labour, no Lib Dems, no government in Spain, all of them in chaos, oblivious to watching eyes such is their haste to grab a place at the rearranged trough. So the question the - why hasn't the country collapsed? If we need these bastards to "run things" then why hasn't everything come to a shuddering halt? Too soon? You think the country will die if they are still absent from "service" next month, or the month after, or forever? Well it won't. Because the civil service bureaucrats and the major banks and corporations remain and these are the entities running the country. The British establishment and the money monsters. Always have, but it doesn't have to be the case they always will.

[Grebbo]

No, people who voted Remain simply think that the EU overall, for all it's problems, did us more good than harm and we are worse off for having decided to leave.

Sure, I understand. The Brexiter's thought the opposite.

Brexit won fair and square so we need to get on with it. We are quite a good nation of traders historically and I'm sure we'll be just fine.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

No, people who voted Remain simply think that the EU overall, for all it's problems, did us more good than harm and we are worse off for having decided to leave.

Yeah this. it's a bit late for this now as the referendum is over but voting remain =/= being pro EU. The EU in is current format is a horrible organisation, corrupt, undemocratic & unaccountable and you'll be hard pressed outside of fat cat Euro bureaucrats and a few other weirdo's who'll disagree with that.

It's more not wanting to risk our economy at least not with a credible plan presented to weather the inevitable storm will follow with minimal impact, something with every passing day seems clear hasn't been done. What we also desperately need now is stability & steady leadership to manage to departure and so with the political crisis that's currently underway (Tories and Labour both in choas) this is catastrophic and only going to make things worse I fear. By all accounts as well we're heading for a recession. I've heard varying accounts of how bad it's going to be: some say just a mild one others say one that'll make the winter of discontent seem like a sideshow.

Anyway, irrespective of the result and which side you fall on, surely you have to acknowledge how unhealthy it is too have such a polarised electorate by generation, with young people voting overall to remain by a large margin and vice versa older people voting to leave?

[Letters]

Sure, I understand. The Brexiter's thought the opposite.

Brexit won fair and square so we need to get on with it. We are quite a good nation of traders historically and I'm sure we'll be just fine.

Well...you say fair and square. They won because of a load of lies which they're now admitting are lies.
But yes, they did win. And long term I think we'll be OK, but don't think all the people who wanted to Remain did so because they thought the EU was perfect. We didn't.

[Grebbo]

Well...you say fair and square. They won because of a load of lies which they're now admitting are lies.
But yes, they did win. And long term I think we'll be OK, but don't think all the people who wanted to Remain did so because they thought the EU was perfect. We didn't.

Both sides lied.

[GP]

Yeah, so you choose anything. If he can throw it over the pub, we've won the referendum. And that's it. And that's the real referendum. Choose one thing.

[Power n Glory]

Now comes the reality.



This is the REAL economy. Goods and services. The Remain lot sitting there praying for a market collapse are looking in the wrong place. Stock markets and currency markets are casinos. Nothing gets destroyed except imaginary expectations and everything is short term. But in the world of commerce the long term prevails, that's where stability comes from. Germany will foot the bill for the UKs exit, so the last thing they'll want to see is collapse in favourable trade with the UK because some sour puss puppet in a parliament is offended. Won't happen and was never going to happen. Companies like Volkswagen and E.ON control the EU Commission. It will be these companies that decide what happens, and Britain's major companies sit at that table too. They will carve up the pie as normal and on we will go.

Look around you. Really see what's happening. No EU, no Tories, no Labour, no Lib Dems, no government in Spain, all of them in chaos, oblivious to watching eyes such is their haste to grab a place at the rearranged trough. So the question the - why hasn't the country collapsed? If we need these bastards to "run things" then why hasn't everything come to a shuddering halt? Too soon? You think the country will die if they are still absent from "service" next month, or the month after, or forever? Well it won't. Because the civil service bureaucrats and the major banks and corporations remain and these are the entities running the country. The British establishment and the money monsters. Always have, but it doesn't have to be the case they always will.

If that's the truth, we're in dangerous territory and much worse off than we were before.

[Letters]

Both sides lied.

What did the Remain side lie about?
(I'm sure you're right actually, but I can't think of such blatant lies as in the Leave campaign)

[Letters]

We're all going to die!!!!!!! :-(

Now now, stop all that scaremongering.
Everything is fine, the pound didn't go down on Friday and it hasn't continued to go down today.
Obviously the charts look like that happened but it's just those blasted propagandists at the BBC showing them upside down.
:sulk:

[GP]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/962/640/658.png

[Power n Glory]

Yeah this. it's a bit late for this now as the referendum is over but voting remain =/= being pro EU. The EU in is current format is a horrible organisation, corrupt, undemocratic & unaccountable and you'll be hard pressed outside of fat cat Euro bureaucrats and a few other weirdo's who'll disagree with that.

It's more not wanting to risk our economy at least not with a credible plan presented to weather the inevitable storm will follow with minimal impact, something with every passing day seems clear hasn't been done. What we also desperately need now is stability & steady leadership to manage to departure and so with the political crisis that's currently underway (Tories and Labour both in choas) this is catastrophic and only going to make things worse I fear. By all accounts as well we're heading for a recession. I've heard varying accounts of how bad it's going to be: some say just a mild one others say one that'll make the winter of discontent seem like a sideshow.

Anyway, irrespective of the result and which side you fall on, surely you have to acknowledge how unhealthy it is too have such a polarised electorate by generation, with young people voting overall to remain by a large margin and vice versa older people voting to leave?

I'm starting to realise there is no point in making an argument for how this will effect the economy because it's falling on deaf ears. It's not as if people weren't warned of the consequences and it's not as if 2008 was a long time ago. Until it hits people in the pocket, then they'll understand. Until then, everything seen on the news is scaremongering and propaganda.

[Ollie the Optimist]

What did the Remain side lie about?
(I'm sure you're right actually, but I can't think of such blatant lies as in the Leave campaign)

They lied about economic armageddon. The markets, while they fell, are still above levels they were at end of last week before the vote. Think I'm right in saying that they are actually still higher then they were when the referendum was announced.

The CBI said it would destroy uk business, now saying it won't. Obama said uk would be back of the queue (cameron bought him over to say that so he counts in this scenario as remain campaign) and now says we will be as per normal. Osbourne said immediate emergency budget and now says we don't need too as we will be fine.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Yeah this. it's a bit late for this now as the referendum is over but voting remain =/= being pro EU. The EU in is current format is a horrible organisation, corrupt, undemocratic & unaccountable and you'll be hard pressed outside of fat cat Euro bureaucrats and a few other weirdo's who'll disagree with that.

It's more not wanting to risk our economy at least not with a credible plan presented to weather the inevitable storm will follow with minimal impact, something with every passing day seems clear hasn't been done. What we also desperately need now is stability & steady leadership to manage to departure and so with the political crisis that's currently underway (Tories and Labour both in choas) this is catastrophic and only going to make things worse I fear. By all accounts as well we're heading for a recession. I've heard varying accounts of how bad it's going to be: some say just a mild one others say one that'll make the winter of discontent seem like a sideshow.

Anyway, irrespective of the result and which side you fall on, surely you have to acknowledge how unhealthy it is too have such a polarised electorate by generation, with young people voting overall to remain by a large margin and vice versa older people voting to leave?

This point is redundant on the basis that under 40% of the 18-25 year olds bothered to actually turn up and vote. Don't blame the older generation for voting one way if the other didn't bother to vote at all!! The older generation clearly believed that the EU wasn't any good so went out to vote for exit. The younger generation are now blaming them for doing so yet they didn't go out and vote themselves. They need to look at themselves first before blaming others

[Niall_Quinn]

If that's the truth, we're in dangerous territory and much worse off than we were before.

That's what I have been saying from the start. But why can't people see this anyway?

[Letters]

They lied about economic armageddon. The markets, while they fell, are still above levels they were at end of last week before the vote. Think I'm right in saying that they are actually still higher then they were when the referendum was announced.

The CBI said it would destroy uk business, now saying it won't. Obama said uk would be back of the queue (cameron bought him over to say that so he counts in this scenario as remain campaign) and now says we will be as per normal. Osbourne said immediate emergency budget and now says we don't need too as we will be fine.

Any prediction about the economy can't be classed as a lie because it's just that, a prediction. The FTSE has gone down significantly since we left but it's only 1 and a bit days of trading. Whether that is a trend which continues remains to be seen but the outlook for the economy is still pretty gloomy. The Remain campaign did admittedly rely too much on scaremongering and complacency that people would vote for the status quo, but I don't think there were lies on the scale of painting "£350m a week for the NHS" on the side of a bus and then immediately admitting after the result that that was a "mistake".

[Niall_Quinn]

Now now, stop all that scaremongering.
Everything is fine, the pound didn't go down on Friday and it hasn't continued to go down today.
Obviously the charts look like that happened but it's just those blasted propagandists at the BBC showing them upside down.
:sulk:

And I notice that "collapse" has become "plunge" has become "fall" has become "down". There quite simply isn't the economic explosion that was threatened by the Fear campaign, all we see is the usual suspects cashing in and out in the stock market and currency casinos. This is what happens before and after EVERY major world event. And the UK appears to have considerably more stability than the rest of Europe when you examine the numbers. So that's another indicator of what the markets really believe. It won't be us disappearing down the toilet bowl, it will be the EU monster. And they know it. Which is why, as predicted, the tones have turned to reconciliation. I mean of course you have a fool like Junkers spouting off but even his friends hate him and want him to piss off.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Any prediction about the economy can't be classed as a lie because it's just that, a prediction. The FTSE has gone down significantly since we left but it's only 1 and a bit days of trading. Whether that is a trend which continues remains to be seen but the outlook for the economy is still pretty gloomy. The Remain campaign did admittedly rely too much on scaremongering and complacency that people would vote for the status quo, but I don't think there were lies on the scale of painting "£350m a week for the NHS" on the side of a bus and then immediately admitting after the result that that was a "mistake".

Reasonable points, but i would still class the threats coming from the Government as lies when they were never going to be enforced. This fantasy emergency budget was designed to make people vote to stay out of fear.

One of the biggest lies they Remain campaign had was that we could reform the EU while in it when all along the EU was saying, no you can't.

I do agree on the NHS point, it shouldn't have been on that bus, however in the "Brexit manifesto' i think I'm right in saying, they only pledge 100million a week to the NHS

[Power n Glory]

That's what I have been saying from the start. But why can't people see this anyway?

I have no idea what you've been saying because I don't know how being outside of the EU and being at the complete mercy of these corporations is a win for the disadvantaged. How is this independence?

[Niall_Quinn]

The democratic will of the people has spoken. Just like when it voted Hitler in for example.

I suspect that the underlying anger and willingness to blame it all on Johny foreigner has been the main driving force in British politics for some time. Promising an eu referendum got the tories a majority against all odds and now it surprised everyone in the referendum itself.

An appropriate comparison. The last time Europe was threatened by a dictatorial force sweeping across its independent states with a view to consuming them and reforming them into "one Europe with a common destiny" it was Britain that stood alone against it, despite the danger, despite the fear, despite the odds. And finally with the help of our friends in France and Poland and the Balkans and Scandinavia and from across the Commonwealth and across the Atlantic, eventually that threat was turned back and destroyed. Just as it will be this time.

The part about the Tories is true of course. Their desire for short term power inadvertently led them down the path of democracy. A route they were unfamiliar with and hence were ambushed on.

[Niall_Quinn]

This point is redundant on the basis that under 40% of the 18-25 year olds bothered to actually turn up and vote. Don't blame the older generation for voting one way if the other didn't bother to vote at all!! The older generation clearly believed that the EU wasn't any good so went out to vote for exit. The younger generation are now blaming them for doing so yet they didn't go out and vote themselves. They need to look at themselves first before blaming others

The youth may engage again after this - not that they are disengaged as many are involved in alternative methods of expressing their views on this shitfest of a political and economic system. This is the second time in a short period where democracy, with all its flaws, has inadvertently escaped into the open. It shows that not everything can be stage managed by the establishment, not yet anyway. It may encourage people who previously disengaged, regardless of their beliefs or current levels of disinterest or feelings of hopelessness.

[Letters]

And I notice that "collapse" has become "plunge" has become "fall" has become "down". There quite simply isn't the economic explosion that was threatened by the Fear campaign, all we see is the usual suspects cashing in and out in the stock market and currency casinos. This is what happens before and after EVERY major world event. And the UK appears to have considerably more stability than the rest of Europe when you examine the numbers. So that's another indicator of what the markets really believe. It won't be us disappearing down the toilet bowl, it will be the EU monster. And they know it. Which is why, as predicted, the tones have turned to reconciliation. I mean of course you have a fool like Junkers spouting off but even his friends hate him and want him to piss off.

An economy doesn't collapse in a day, let's see what happens. There are still lots of gloomy predictions flying around but we're not going to feel the full effects, good or bad, yet.

[Niall_Quinn]

An economy doesn't collapse in a day, let's see what happens. There are still lots of gloomy predictions flying around but we're not going to feel the full effects, good or bad, yet.

Yeah. With a bit of luck the whole thing will come crashing down so Remain can say they told us so. Any day now :pray:

[Letters]

Yes, like the people on the Titanic who reckoned the boat would sink were punching the air as they glugged beneath the waves because they were 'right'.
No-one 'wants' the economy to go down the toilet, obviously Remainers hope they're wrong. Stop being silly.

[LDG]

There's been quite a bit of volatility, as you would expect with such a major decision.

But that's short term, and it'll recover fairly quickly as we have a strong economy.

That said, there is uncertainty (mainly because there isn't any idea what will happen long term), and this is likely to keep things subdued, with much slower growth. There will be an impact on our pockets, and it'll be scary for all of us.

There is so much wrong with both sides of this argument, mainly because both sides are scrambling for a seat at the table of whatever unfolds. So for me it's more disappointing to see the pointing of fingers and broad brush accusations within the general public. Whilst I get that everyone has an opinion (me included), social media has shown me some utter retarded cunts these last few days, and I've looked on some people I called "friends" with very different eyes.

A democratic decision has been reached, and the consequences of that decision are for everyone to get to grips with, like it or not. We should be pulling together as a nation to make things better for all, not fighting. The more mudslinging that goes on, the better it is for those few who want to decide our fate for us....

[Letters]

I've actually "unfriended" a couple of people over it, I nearly did so with a fellow "Remainer" actually as he kept banging on about it all. I did too a bit, to be fair, but not as much as him and I've now made a policy decision not to do so, or certainly not as much.

As I said above the trouble with democracy is it’s entirely based on the idea that everyone has a right to an opinion (which I’m on board with) and that everyone’s opinion is equally valid. Well here’s the thing…no it isn’t. And this isn’t being snobbish, it’s just true. And it isn’t a class thing, if I get a leak in my house am I going to call someone who went to Oxbridge on the basis that they’re ever so well educated? Plumbers tend to be working class and I’ll call one of them because they know what they’re doing. But I wouldn’t ask them whether we should join the Euro as I suspect their knowledge of the intricacies of the European fiscal system is patchy at best

I haven't suddenly come to this realisation (in response to something NQ said above), I've always thought this.

I reckon the rule should be if you've ever voted in a reality TV contest then you shouldn't be able to vote in a real election.

[Niall_Quinn]

Elements of Remain and even more importantly the so-called public servants have to come out and accept the result. That's the first step in unifying the nation. Right now though everything is pointing towards the will of the people being undermined. If we want to see some real division then let the anti-democratic elements that have emerged carry on down that route. The fight is not over until the minority accepts the result. That's why I hate democracy, but in that respect I'm the one in a tiny minority so I have to go along with it. This is how the damn thing works. Why don't certain people understand that?

[Letters]

Elements of Remain and even more importantly the so-called public servants have to come out and accept the result. That's the first step in unifying the nation. Right now though everything is pointing towards the will of the people being undermined. If we want to see some real division then let the anti-democratic elements that have emerged carry on down that route. The fight is not over until the minority accepts the result. That's why I hate democracy, but in that respect I'm the one in a tiny minority so I have to go along with it. This is how the damn thing works. Why don't certain people understand that?

I have accepted the result and I'm not going to sign any petition to say we should have a re-match (although actually, that petition was set up by a Leave supporter before the referendum, it's just now been hijacked by Remain supporters).
But that doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to think it was the right decision.

[Niall_Quinn]

I've actually "unfriended" a couple of people over it, I nearly did so with a fellow "Remainer" actually as he kept banging on about it all. I did too a bit, to be fair, but not as much as him and I've now made a policy decision not to do so, or certainly not as much.

As I said above the trouble with democracy is it’s entirely based on the idea that everyone has a right to an opinion (which I’m on board with) and that everyone’s opinion is equally valid. Well here’s the thing…no it isn’t. And this isn’t being snobbish, it’s just true. And it isn’t a class thing, if I get a leak in my house am I going to call someone who went to Oxbridge on the basis that they’re ever so well educated? Plumbers tend to be working class and I’ll call one of them because they know what they’re doing. But I wouldn’t ask them whether we should join the Euro as I suspect their knowledge of the intricacies of the European fiscal system is patchy at best

I haven't suddenly come to this realisation (in response to something NQ said above), I've always thought this.

I reckon the rule should be if you've ever voted in a reality TV contest then you shouldn't be able to vote in a real election.

Well you SHOULD ask the plumber. Because he's out on the street every day encountering the real economy and living with the consequences of decisions made over his head and never in his interests. Yet he's the one who has to foot the bill for these decisions. Better bloody ask him because one day he's going to get together with his friends and make some changes. One thing has certainly emerged from this - the comfortable classes have absolutely zero idea of what life is like for the struggling classes (and those are the only classes left in a practical sense). But worse, they don't give a shit how dire the lives of so many people have become in this essentially wealthy nation. I would say the voice of the oppressed counts double, for what other hope do they have? Caring Britain isn't going to look out for them, is it? And your Oxbridge friend will come up with a spreadsheet on how things have improved for the unwashed since sanitation was introduced and they were trained to flush the loo. That's because he's clever. So clever he doesn't have a clue he's being manipulated too and that us versus them and comfort versus want and security versus fear is part of the establishment's solution - it's not a problem at all, it's by design. Let's look down our noses (or preferably gun barrels) at those bastards, not the working plumber.

[Globalgunner]

The greatest threat to the UK economy is the loss of or shrinkage of the financial sector. Like it or not the finance sector contributes most of the national GDP. If Brexit sees a lot of this move to Frankfurt then yes there will be consequences and its not as if other sectors of the economy can compensate. The other problem is that there is no reason for the EU to provide the UK with a soft landing as this will only embolden others. Its touch and go really, no one knows what will be the long term effects but no one in Brussels Paris or Berlin is going to go out of their way to make it painless. In truth the UK is best out of Europe, the nations heart was never in it. If Norway can go it alone outside the EU then surely the UK can.

If for the man on the streets the issue was actually unchecked mass migration, then the politicians better make sure the trend is stemmed or reversed, otherwise what was the whole point?. The establishment politicians will have to act otherwise the likes of Farage may find the route to power laid wide open for then in a nasty brutish Hobbesian dystopian future.

[selassie]

Corbyn going nowhere by the looks of things and will stand again for the leadership if it comes down to it, probably winning once more. Excellent news. This infighting is a delight to watch unfold. Meanwhile the Lib Spengs aiming to build their next GE campaign on the UK rejoining the EU :lol:


He has to go now, 4 more on the cabinet have walked out today and his Deputy Leader is telling him to leave.

He's an idiot if he stays, for all his "liberal" rhetoric Corbyn is a lousy leader and is not fit to run this country or even be in the running for it.

[selassie]

The greatest threat to the UK economy is the loss of or shrinkage of the financial sector. Like it or not the finance sector contributes most of the national GDP. If Brexit sees a lot of this move to Frankfurt then yes there will be consequences and its not as if other sectors of the economy can compensate. The other problem is that there is no reason for the EU to provide the UK with a soft landing as this will only embolden others. Its touch and go really, no one knows what will be the long term effects but no one in Brussels Paris or Berlin is going to go out of their way to make it painless. In truth the UK is best out of Europe, the nations heart was never in it. If Norway can go it alone outside the EU then surely the UK can.

If for the man on the streets the issue was actually unchecked mass migration, then the politicians better make sure the trend is stemmed or reversed, otherwise what was the whole point?. The establishment politicians will have to act otherwise the likes of Farage may find the route to power laid wide open for then in a nasty brutish Hobbesian dystopian future.

Yep, regarding the financial sector, it needs to be scrutinized more and certain regulations need to be put in place to ensure that when trading the money is kept within this country and not hidden in some "dodgy tax free haven offshore account" but despite that, the financial sector is absolutely crucial to this country, more so now than ever.

Norway aren't part of the EU but you do realise that it's one of the most expensive countries in the World to live in, the cost of living over there is very very high (like Switzerland who are also not in the EU) we do not want to be following the model of them unless we absolutely have to. People voted out because they think they have it bad now, we go the way of Norway and there will be a lot of unhappy and broke people in this country!

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Norway

[Globalgunner]

He has to go now, 4 more on the cabinet have walked out today and his Deputy Leader is telling him to leave.

He's an idiot if he stays, for all his "liberal" rhetoric Corbyn is a lousy leader and is not fit to run this country or even be in the running for it.

Why should he go?. He won an election only a year ago with an overwhelming majority. Was the referendum another plebiscite on Corbyn?
The knuckleheads resigning are still hung up on the notion that you have to be more like the Tories in order to win an election. The people disagree. Corbyn may not be the messiah but those Blairheads should just STFU and slink back to the rearmost benches.

[Letters]

Well you SHOULD ask the plumber. Because he's out on the street every day encountering the real economy and living with the consequences of decisions made over his head and never in his interests. Yet he's the one who has to foot the bill for these decisions. Better bloody ask him because one day he's going to get together with his friends and make some changes. One thing has certainly emerged from this - the comfortable classes have absolutely zero idea of what life is like for the struggling classes (and those are the only classes left in a practical sense). But worse, they don't give a shit how dire the lives of so many people have become in this essentially wealthy nation. I would say the voice of the oppressed counts double, for what other hope do they have? Caring Britain isn't going to look out for them, is it? And your Oxbridge friend will come up with a spreadsheet on how things have improved for the unwashed since sanitation was introduced and they were trained to flush the loo. That's because he's clever. So clever he doesn't have a clue he's being manipulated too and that us versus them and comfort versus want and security versus fear is part of the establishment's solution - it's not a problem at all, it's by design. Let's look down our noses (or preferably gun barrels) at those bastards, not the working plumber.

Ok, firstly you're not in the struggling classes.

Secondly fine, I'll ask the plumber. And if he says we should leave the EU because we need to send "all them foreigners" back or because he thinks it will mean we'll be able to spend £350m an extra a week then I'm not going to take his opinion very seriously. If he gives a more reasoned answer then fine. It's about understanding, not class. If people haven't bothered to try and understand the arguments and issues then why should they get a say?

[Power n Glory]

Norway still has to allow freedom of movement and pay into the EU so they can access the single market. They're just unable to vote on EU decisions. It's not the model to follow.

[Niall_Quinn]

The greatest threat to the UK economy is the loss of or shrinkage of the financial sector. Like it or not the finance sector contributes most of the national GDP. If Brexit sees a lot of this move to Frankfurt then yes there will be consequences and its not as if other sectors of the economy can compensate. The other problem is that there is no reason for the EU to provide the UK with a soft landing as this will only embolden others. Its touch and go really, no one knows what will be the long term effects but no one in Brussels Paris or Berlin is going to go out of their way to make it painless. In truth the UK is best out of Europe, the nations heart was never in it. If Norway can go it alone outside the EU then surely the UK can.

If for the man on the streets the issue was actually unchecked mass migration, then the politicians better make sure the trend is stemmed or reversed, otherwise what was the whole point?. The establishment politicians will have to act otherwise the likes of Farage may find the route to power laid wide open for then in a nasty brutish Hobbesian dystopian future.

Just bear in mind that Farage is the ONLY politician to have stood the test of time in terms of his convictions, whether you agree with him or not. He has campaigned long and hard from the inside to get to this point - and of course has been kicked out the door once the job is done by latecomer opportunists. The fact is, the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems no longer represent the majority of people in this country, they represent the reverse of what the majority wants. This is where we find ourselves, not because Farage is a worthy leader or UKIP a viable choice but because the others are worse. They have no convictions (although they should after that appalling expenses scandal). They represent NOTHING except themselves. This is an opportunity to throw them all out. I'm not suggesting the peoples' courage will go that far, which is a shame.

As for the cuckoo financial sector, that was our trade off with the EU which received our traditional industrial base in return. A bitter irony, by becoming entwined with that snake a vote to stop getting bitten will cause upheaval. Don't forget, those banksters take out far more than they put in in the long run. Every month they are being convicted of great frauds perpetrated against the people. Every month they ship more of this nation's wealth overseas. Regulating that shit heap is one of the first tasks and incoming government should attend to - but WON'T. And that's why they won't be going anywhere. Because they are essentially their own mini-state embedded within a state. They are a law unto themselves and no party will have the guts to tackle the problem. Whatever horrible Tory mess steps in next certainly won't be striking any fear into the bankster classes, it will be corruption as usual, unchecked, unhindered. That was never going to change. And it's the next battle and twice as challenging as the one just won.

[selassie]

Why should he go?. He won an election only a year ago with an overwhelming majority. Was the referendum another plebiscite on Corbyn?
The knuckleheads resigning are still hung up on the notion that you have to be more like the Tories in order to win an election. The people disagree. Corbyn may not be the messiah but those Blairheads should just STFU and slink back to the rearmost benches.

To a role where he is wanted? If we go into General Election next year with him in charge you think people are going to vote for him when he's pretty much brought down his own party, Labour is in a real mess right now, I was pro "Corbyn" up until recently, I like his ideology (still do), though I now see him as someone that talks a good game but is unable to deliver.

[Globalgunner]

Yep, regarding the financial sector, it needs to be scrutinized more and certain regulations need to be put in place to ensure that when trading the money is kept within this country and not hidden in some "dodgy tax free haven offshore account" but despite that, the financial sector is absolutely crucial to this country, more so now than ever.

Norway aren't part of the EU but you do realise that it's one of the most expensive countries in the World to live in, the cost of living over there is very very high (like Switzerland who are also not in the EU) we do not want to be following the model of them unless we absolutely have to. People voted out because they think they have it bad now, we go the way of Norway and there will be a lot of unhappy and broke people in this country!

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Norway

Agreed the Norway model is not a desirable template . Incredible really as they have one of the highest GDPs in the whole world. Lots of Oil and Gas revenue coupled with a small population. The UK is completely the reverse, small real economy and overburdened population. A correction has to be made somewhere.
I still blame Thatcher for all of it, she killed all the industries literally in 10 years flat. Stopped low cost housing development, defunded education....really she was the worst.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ok, firstly you're not in the struggling classes.

Secondly fine, I'll ask the plumber. And if he says we should leave the EU because we need to send "all them foreigners" back or because he thinks it will mean we'll be able to spend £350m an extra a week then I'm not going to take his opinion very seriously. If he gives a more reasoned answer then fine. It's about understanding, not class. If people haven't bothered to try and understand the arguments and issues then why should they get a say?

It's astounding how much you know about so many people. How do you know what class I'm in? And the plumber is a racist I see? Well you seem to have him pegged too. Well done. Of course the Oxford guy, whose great great granddaddy showed them darkies a thing or two, and whose daddy has a pretty penny invested in slave camps in the east, would be the one to ask about the reality of economics. How does it go? Rich fucking over the poor? Same as it ever was.

[Letters]

You really need to learn what the word 'if' means :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

He has to go now, 4 more on the cabinet have walked out today and his Deputy Leader is telling him to leave.

He's an idiot if he stays, for all his "liberal" rhetoric Corbyn is a lousy leader and is not fit to run this country or even be in the running for it.

Shouldn't he go when the people who elected him want him to go? Or should the will of a few disloyal and entirely self-interested snakes posing as public servants trump the will of the party members? Maybe Corbyn can win an election. Maybe he can't. But that's not the point is it? If the people who elected him think he can then that's their man. I'm trusting everyone can see right through these "selfless" pricks who with such regret have sacrificed themselves in service of the nation? Maybe Corbyn's no good but surely let's not have these bastards anywhere near power?

[Özim]

So for me it's more disappointing to see the pointing of fingers and broad brush accusations within the general public. Whilst I get that everyone has an opinion (me included), social media has shown me some utter retarded cunts these last few days, and I've looked on some people I called "friends" with very different eyes.

A democratic decision has been reached, and the consequences of that decision are for everyone to get to grips with, like it or not. We should be pulling together as a nation to make things better for all, not fighting. The more mudslinging that goes on, the better it is for those few who want to decide our fate for us....

Yes I totally agree, I've seen quite a few nasty posts on social media as well, everyone is entitled to their opinion but insulting people and calling things they are not because the vote didn't go your way, is uncalled for.

[Niall_Quinn]

You really need to learn what the word 'if' means :lol:

And you could do with standing your ground when challenged, either reinforcing your point or conceding it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes I totally agree, I've seen quite a few nasty posts on social media as well, everyone is entitled to their opinion but insulting people and calling things they are not because the vote didn't go your way, is uncalled for.

Racist :sulk:

[Letters]

"Not all the people who voted Leave are racists, but all the racists voted to Leave"
- Letters.

[Özim]

"Not all the people who voted Leave are racists, but all the racists voted to Leave"
- Letters.

I doubt it, I'm pretty sure some may not have voted at all.

On the other side of the coin the greedy people only interested in themselves voted to remain (not all of them again as some may not have voted).

[Letters]

Possibly. But all those who did would have voted that way. And I suspect many of them did vote for a chance to kick out "all them foreigners" (which is isn't, obviously)

[selassie]

Agreed the Norway model is not a desirable template . Incredible really as they have one of the highest GDPs in the whole world. Lots of Oil and Gas revenue coupled with a small population. The UK is completely the reverse, small real economy and overburdened population. A correction has to be made somewhere.
I still blame Thatcher for all of it, she killed all the industries literally in 10 years flat. Stopped low cost housing development, defunded education....really she was the worst.

Yeah Norway is an extremely self sufficient country and has a lot to offer, like you rightly said we are pretty much the opposite and I really question outside of the Financial sector what we really have to offer.

Thatcher had a part to play but I think the industries would have died in the UK albeit not as quickly without Thatcher's input.

I totally agree on the Housing and Education, a total mess right now and purely driven on Finance.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well whoever voted Leave so the foreigners would be kicked out must be deaf, because nobody said that was going to happen. All that was ever said was everyone agreed with immigration and thought it necessary but it needed to be managed instead of being a free-for-all. That was all that was ever said. And it's the only sensible policy to have of course. These days you are a racist for being sane.

The reason the EU ties freedom to movement to free (euphemism) trade is because it views human beings as raw material (or goods if you prefer) to ship around the place for economic purposes. But fundamentally evil bastards would think that way I suppose.

[Özim]

Possibly. But all those who did would have voted that way. And I suspect many of them did vote for a chance to kick out "all them foreigners" (which is isn't, obviously)

Perhaps, but many people interested in self gain voted remain to feather their nests and protect and increase their wealth, just look at the map of remain vs leave, the rich areas pretty much voted remain, tells you all you need to know really.

Greed is prevalent in Western society, nobody cares about the little guy, they'll trample all over him to get richer.

[selassie]

Shouldn't he go when the people who elected him want him to go? Or should the will of a few disloyal and entirely self-interested snakes posing as public servants trump the will of the party members? Maybe Corbyn can win an election. Maybe he can't. But that's not the point is it? If the people who elected him think he can then that's their man. I'm trusting everyone can see right through these "selfless" pricks who with such regret have sacrificed themselves in service of the nation? Maybe Corbyn's no good but surely let's not have these bastards anywhere near power?

Sure, he's free to do as he pleases...but a few? He's lost 12 of his Shadow Cabinet!!! It's not like a few disgruntled members have walked. I'm just looking at things at face value with a completely impartial opinion and I see Labour as a total mess right now, I want them to be a strong party, a party that can challenge the Tories in the next General Election, right now I see them as a weak party with a lot of infighting, it's embarrassing.

[Özim]

Well whoever voted Leave so the foreigners would be kicked out must be deaf, because nobody said that was going to happen. All that was ever said was everyone agreed with immigration and thought it necessary but it needed to be managed instead of being a free-for-all. That was all that was ever said. And it's the only sensible policy to have of course. These days you are a racist for being sane.

Exactly, noone said we should stop people entering the country or kick people out at all, all that was offered was a bit more control so that you can manage the net migration and therefore plan your resources accordingly,

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah Norway is an extremely self sufficient country and has a lot to offer, like you rightly said we are pretty much the opposite and I really question outside of the Financial sector what we really have to offer.

Thatcher had a part to play but I think the industries would have died in the UK albeit not as quickly without Thatcher's input.

I totally agree on the Housing and Education, a total mess right now and purely driven on Finance.

Thatcher was a globalist through and through, she played along with every shitty scam while waving her handbag and bellowing for effect at home. Horrible deceitful cunt. Says something when even the politically tamed (well maybe not so tamed after all) people of Britain has a party when the cunt died. Most had her ticket. What a coincidence that her deeds corresponded so closely with Euro needs.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sure, he's free to do as he pleases...but a few? He's lost 12 of his Shadow Cabinet!!! It's not like a few disgruntled members have walked. I'm just looking at things at face value with a completely impartial opinion and I see Labour as a total mess right now, I want them to be a strong party, a party that can challenge the Tories in the next General Election, right now I see them as a weak party with a lot of infighting, it's embarrassing.

Well I advise you look to the party membership and find strength with them, rather than worry so much about the publicity stunts and tantrums of champagne socialists who strangely believe in 90% of what your average Tory believes in. 12 of them, is that all? Disappointing, I was hoping it would be all of them by now. The more the merrier. Labour goes nowhere for as long as it has quislings in the camp, so better to flush and flush hard.

[Letters]

Perhaps, but many people interested in self gain voted remain to feather their nests and protect and increase their wealth, just look at the map of remain vs leave, the rich areas pretty much voted remain, tells you all you need to know really.

Greed is prevalent in Western society, nobody cares about the little guy, they'll trample all over him to get richer.

But if the economy suffers for this then that affects everyone, the poorer people more than most.

[Niall_Quinn]

But if the economy suffers for this then that affects everyone, the poorer people more than most.

It affects everyone does it? So the fact the super rich have seen their wealth expand dramatically since the austerity regime was introduced must be a new form of suffering I haven't encountered before. Poor bastards. In case you hadn't noticed, bonuses are up. So where's the naked whore, we're hungry and we need to eat our sushi off her arse?

[Letters]

I think you've just reinforced my point :)
The poorer people are affected most.

:good:

[Özim]

But if the economy suffers for this then that affects everyone, the poorer people more than most.

The economy in the longer term will be fine, it may even flourish, we're a big economy and I have no worries that we'll get through it and be stronger for it.

In the end it's what's best for the whole population not just the few who have been lining their pockets for years increasing the wealth gap in the process, who's been suffering in recent times, certainly not the rich! We may even seem a more even distribution of wealth whcih would be a great thing.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think you've just reinforced my point :)
The poorer people are affected most.

:good:

You mean I reinforced the point you just changed? Sure, if you like.

So theoretically, if we make the rich even richer then the poor might get a few scraps? Wait a minute, isn't that Ronnie and Maggie's trickle down economics? The economics of equality that saw the wealth divide widen at an exponential rate?

How far will you go to defend the status quo? Will people have to be eating each other in the street before you notice there might be something up?

[Power n Glory]

Perhaps, but many people interested in self gain voted remain to feather their nests and protect and increase their wealth, just look at the map of remain vs leave, the rich areas pretty much voted remain, tells you all you need to know really.

Greed is prevalent in Western society, nobody cares about the little guy, they'll trample all over him to get richer.

Silly argument. Those that voted leave aren't interested in self gain? The leave camp have argued migrants are the reason they can't get a an appointment with their GP, get on the property ladder and why wages are low.

[Power n Glory]

I think you've just reinforced my point :)
The poorer people are affected most.

:good:

Exactly.

[Niall_Quinn]

Silly argument. Those that voted leave aren't interested in self gain? The leave camp have argued migrants are the reason they can't get a an appointment with their GP, get on the property ladder and why wages are low.

Well yes, I suppose it's self interest to want a job so you can get the money needed to feed your family and keep a roof over their heads. Now if you live in a country that has x amount of jobs and y amount of people and y exceeds x, then how unreasonable is it to suggest importing a whole bunch more people is a poor idea?

[Niall_Quinn]

Exactly.

What don't you read what his original point was before he changed it? Got to keep a close eye on Letters if you want to understand what's going on.

[Özim]

Silly argument. Those that voted leave aren't interested in self gain? The leave camp have argued migrants are the reason they can't get a an appointment with their GP, get on the property ladder and why wages are low.

Not in the same way no, the poorer just want to be able to live without scraping around as opposed to wanting more so they can buy more yachts and super cars.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not in the same way no, the poorer just want to be able to live without scraping around as opposed to wanting more so they can buy more yachts and super cars.

That and they want to burn pakis. You must have noticed all the race riots down your street recently?

[Letters]

The economy in the longer term will be fine, it may even flourish, we're a big economy and I have no worries that we'll get through it and be stronger for it.

In the end it's what's best for the whole population not just the few who have been lining their pockets for years increasing the wealth gap in the process, who's been suffering in recent times, certainly not the rich! We may even seem a more even distribution of wealth whcih would be a great thing.

Why do you think we will suddenly see more distribution of wealth? I agree that would be a good thing but how will being out of the EU facilitate that and what about being in prevented it?
Long term I think our economy will be OK, whether it will be as good as it would have had we stayed in...well who knows? It's impossible to determine that either way.

IMO the problem now is we'll still have to deal with the EU, we'll probably still have to accept quite a lot of immigration - quite possibly free movement, other countries have had to as part of their EU deals. We'll still have to pay in to the EU budget. But we'll have no say in the way the EU goes (and it's a complete myth that we didn't have any). I think our FB status with the EU just went from "in a relationship" to "it's complicated" and when people do that it's generally not a good thing.

[Letters]

Not in the same way no, the poorer just want to be able to live without scraping around as opposed to wanting more so they can buy more yachts and super cars.

And how will leaving the EU help then do that?

[Kano]

Sure, he's free to do as he pleases...but a few? He's lost 12 of his Shadow Cabinet!!! It's not like a few disgruntled members have walked. I'm just looking at things at face value with a completely impartial opinion and I see Labour as a total mess right now, I want them to be a strong party, a party that can challenge the Tories in the next General Election, right now I see them as a weak party with a lot of infighting, it's embarrassing.
Look at it beyond the straplines of just having a 'strong' leader or someone with 'charisma'. This is bs people have bought into again and again and where are we now? Look at the wankers who left Corbyn, who the fuck are they anyway? Another cluster of replaceable drones. Corbyn probably isn't the man to lead the sort of change needed in this country but his ideals and beliefs are a lot closer to what people actually need than 99% of the other cunts in politics. If Labour dump Corbyn, become 'strong' and challenge the Tories for the the GE, can you geniunely see a set of policies being implemented than you can believe will change your own life and those around you? Think about how any differences there actually are between the two parties - and remember this is supposed to be a 'democracy'. How many real options you have to pick from at election time? What's embarrassing is (and this isn't a slight at you) hearing people believe they've just thrown a brick at the establishment, by voting for the establishment. And all the while, as panic ensues about the finance markets, they are once again seen as the ones that can steady the ship and lead the country out of troubled waters. Forget all the other bullshit we've had to suffer because of their greed. Now they're our saviours.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why do you think we will suddenly see more distribution of wealth? I agree that would be a good thing but how will being out of the EU facilitate that and what about being in prevented it?
Long term I think our economy will be OK, whether it will be as good as it would have had we stayed in...well who knows? It's impossible to determine that either way.

IMO the problem now is we'll still have to deal with the EU, we'll probably still have to accept quite a lot of immigration - quite possibly free movement, other countries have had to as part of their EU deals. We'll still have to pay in to the EU budget. But we'll have no say in the way the EU goes (and it's a complete myth that we didn't have any). I think our FB status with the EU just went from "in a relationship" to "it's complicated" and when people do that it's generally not a good thing.

Erm no - it just went to "I'm out of here!"

Please pay attention.

What you are saying is, oh well, we are out. Now we need togo about getting back in and accepting all those things we left over. So how will that work? Second referendum? Secret deals subverting the peoples' will? Concentration camps for the Leave supporters?

This is precisely what I was talking about when I said Remain are gearing up to simply ignore the vote. Well go on then. Nice to see you taking a risk at least.

[Power n Glory]

It affects everyone does it? So the fact the super rich have seen their wealth expand dramatically since the austerity regime was introduced must be a new form of suffering I haven't encountered before. Poor bastards. In case you hadn't noticed, bonuses are up. So where's the naked whore, we're hungry and we need to eat our sushi off her arse?

So how is leaving the EU, unsettling the economy and watching the mainstream parties lose all control good for the disadvantaged? How is this independence if you truly believe corrupt corporations really run the show. Bear in mind EU regulations pushed forward workers right and equal pay to help protect workers from corporations really taking the piss. Even if the government is just the puppet show as you claim, isn't this just throwing the shackles off and leaving the most disadvantaged to the mercy of corporations if you truly believe we don't need to be governed?

What's the vision and plan after this is over and we've left the EU? What next?

[Letters]

Erm no - it just went to "I'm out of here!"
Well no, it didn't. Because too much of our economy relies on trade with the EU, we can't just walk away and pretend they're not there any more.
Anyway, if you could address this point that would be super-awesome


Why do you think we will suddenly see more distribution of wealth? I agree that would be a good thing but how will being out of the EU facilitate that and what about being in prevented it?
Long term I think our economy will be OK, whether it will be as good as it would have had we stayed in...well who knows? It's impossible to determine that either way.

[Letters]

What's the vision and plan after this is over and we've left the EU? What next?
Well that's the thing, there isn't a plan. They've admitted there isn't.

[Niall_Quinn]

So how is leaving the EU, unsettling the economy and watching the mainstream parties lose all control good for the disadvantaged? How is this independence if you truly believe corrupt corporations really run the show. Bear in mind EU regulations pushed forward workers right and equal pay to help protect workers from corporations really taking the piss. Even if the government is just the puppet show as you claim, isn't this just throwing the shackles off and leaving the most disadvantaged to the mercy of corporations if you truly believe we don't need to be governed?

What's the vision and plan after this is over and we've left the EU? What next?

You want the vision and plan from me? Still? After all the times I have set it out over many posts, some related to the EU, many not? And what difference will giving it to you one more time make? You even argued sometimes for and sometimes against my vision and plan.

Regardless. How does being outside of an undemocratic and unrepresentative collective of corporations help and island of 65 million people? Well. Now there are 65 million people between which a common ground needs to be found, rather than 500 million. So I think we stand a much better chance, in fact I know we do because of course there was a time when Britain existed before the EU.

Or better still:

EEC -> EC -> EU -> E

Does that explain it, in terms of us being an independent nation that by our very constitution reserves the right to govern itself and set its own laws and defences and foreign and trade policies? Why does this issue never enter into the Remain reckoning when it's the issue at the very heart of the matter?

How is it better for us to govern ourselves, even it that is shitty government? Because we stand far more chance of remedying one layer of shitty government than two. Especially when one is remote and run by people we can't even name and who have no affinity to this island at all.

I think Remain is deliberately missing this point.

and as for workers and jobs. Well the EU destroys both. Look at Spain, Greece, Italy, Ireland, Portugal. Is that what we want? Or do we want to be part of that undemocratic wheel within a wheel? UK, France, Germany? Is that the real desire? In which case let's dispense with the stronger together bullshit.

What was the EU's response to the crisis? The "big" guys met, the "little" guys didn't get a word in. That's the true nature of the EU. I mean it would be really useful if Remain found out what the EU actually is and how it operates.

If we can hold our nerve and not wet and shit the bed, if we can frighten the politicians a bit so they keep a lowish profile for a while instead of carrying on with that stupid pretence of governing us, then maybe, maybe the people of France will step up a deal a death blow to the EU once and for all. That's a vision worth fighting for.

I don't know about you but I'm 100% in this with my French brothers and sisters. Hopefully they will have their say too because sure as hell that vote is only going one way.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well no, it didn't. Because too much of our economy relies on trade with the EU, we can't just walk away and pretend they're not there any more.
Anyway, if you could address this point that would be super-awesome

Was that point even addressed to me originally? But those are the rules are they? I address all your points, you cherry pick?

A SMALL MINORITY of our economy relies on the EU. Conversely, a greater amount of the EU economy relies upon us, along with our annual membership bung of course. We won't be walking away. We'll even roll out a red carpet when the Germans and French arrive insisting on doing business. I think that's them knocking now in fact...

"A nation of shopkeepers." That's how we'll redistribute the wealth. Less red tape, lower costs of doing business, market expansion, trading with our traditional partners. If we can free small business from the strangling bonds of legislation that the multinationals love (because it acts as a barrier to competition and they have the army of lawyers to gain the edge) then wealth will redistribute based on competition, as should always be the way. People must have opportunities, realistic ones. And the playing field must be level. So hunting down corruption within Westminster and the City of London would be an excellent start. Long hard fight, but it was always going to be, EU or no EU.

[Power n Glory]

Well yes, I suppose it's self interest to want a job so you can get the money needed to feed your family and keep a roof over their heads. Now if you live in a country that has x amount of jobs and y amount of people and y exceeds x, then how unreasonable is it to suggest importing a whole bunch more people is a poor idea?

What if we don't have enough trained doctors and nurses to support vital services? Isn't it the fault of the government for training and educating enough people here in this country to fill those roles?

What if the people coming in are helping to create more jobs and the taxes they contribute helps to keep a healthy economy? Why is it enough isn't being spent on building schools, houses and supporting other industries outside of London so we're not so dependent on financial industries?

How about stopping the mega rich from China and Russia from inflating the house prices in London? There are plenty of things this government and previous governments should be doing and could be doing to support the people. I haven't even gotten into going after companies that dodge paying taxes.

I think people have once again been bamboozled and distracted by what the real issue is. It's no coincidence either. In the US and across Europe there were riots and protests aimed at the government because of the lies and how austerity measures had targeted everyday people instead of going after the wealthy that cause the recession in the first place. Occupy Wall Street wasn't that long ago. Now look at the state of the US with Donald Trump emerging. Divide and conquer. It's worse than that. People from disadvantaged and working class backgrounds are piratically voting for Tories. How could anyone believe Gove and Boris are in favour of the NHS?

I'm actually surprised you can't see what's going on.

[Letters]

You quoted the post which contained my question so yes, I would expect you to address that point - you whine if I 'cherry pick' parts of your posts to reply to :good:
And I'm not particularly convinced that the EU stopped us redistributing wealth but we'll see how things pan out.

[Niall_Quinn]

What if we don't have enough trained doctors and nurses to support vital services? Isn't it the fault of the government for training and educating enough people here in this country to fill those roles?

What if the people coming in are helping to create more jobs and the taxes they contribute helps to keep a healthy economy? Why is it enough isn't being spent on building schools, houses and supporting other industries outside of London so we're not so dependent on financial industries?

How about stopping the mega rich from China and Russia from inflating the house prices in London? There are plenty of things this government and previous governments should be doing and could be doing to support the people. I haven't even gotten into going after companies that dodge paying taxes.

I think people have once again been bamboozled and distracted by what the real issue is. It's no coincidence either. In the US and across Europe there were riots and protests aimed at the government because of the lies and how austerity measures had targeted everyday people instead of going after the wealthy that cause the recession in the first place. Occupy Wall Street wasn't that long ago. Now look at the state of the US with Donald Trump emerging. Divide and conquer. It's worse than that. People from disadvantaged and working class backgrounds are piratically voting for Tories. How could anyone believe Gove and Boris are in favour of the NHS?

I'm actually surprised you can't see what's going on.

Yes well the EU actually discriminates against those doctors and nurses and other skilled professionals we required, in favour of economic migrants that have a right to travel as they please. So good news, being outside the EU should shorten that skills gap pretty rapidly.

Yes of course, stop criminals appropriating British assets. Of course, I have always argued for that.

Yes, austerity measures for the poor and champagne for the rich. Of course, I have always been against that.

reams of posts to demonstrate my position.

Now you are trying to pretend that's not my position.
Why?

[Niall_Quinn]

You quoted the post which contained my question so yes, I would expect you to address that point - you whine if I 'cherry pick' parts of your posts to reply to :good:
And I'm not particularly convinced that the EU stopped us redistributing wealth but we'll see how things pan out.

Well excellent. I'm glad we're not doing the cherry picking thing any more. Maybe some finger exercise will help you prepare?

[Özim]

Why do you think we will suddenly see more distribution of wealth? I agree that would be a good thing but how will being out of the EU facilitate that and what about being in prevented it?
Long term I think our economy will be OK, whether it will be as good as it would have had we stayed in...well who knows? It's impossible to determine that either way.

IMO the problem now is we'll still have to deal with the EU, we'll probably still have to accept quite a lot of immigration - quite possibly free movement, other countries have had to as part of their EU deals. We'll still have to pay in to the EU budget. But we'll have no say in the way the EU goes (and it's a complete myth that we didn't have any). I think our FB status with the EU just went from "in a relationship" to "it's complicated" and when people do that it's generally not a good thing.

For a start this is a wake up call to politicians that they need to listen to the population not just this little vortex down south call London which thinks it's king of the world, this has been brewing for quite some time of course so far though they've ignored the real world issues all over the UK.

As for payng into the EU, we'll have to see, I suspect we won't have to pay anywhere near as much, at the moment we put in far more than we get out and that money can be better spent elsewhere in areas the country needs.

Being able to make your own decisions and not having some outside central body telling you that you can't do it because it's not allowed will surely help too.

As for immigration, it's all about letting in the the amount of people your infrastructure can deal with and giving yourself time to improve this in order that you can deal with the extra population.

[selassie]

Well I advise you look to the party membership and find strength with them, rather than worry so much about the publicity stunts and tantrums of champagne socialists who strangely believe in 90% of what your average Tory believes in. 12 of them, is that all? Disappointing, I was hoping it would be all of them by now. The more the merrier. Labour goes nowhere for as long as it has quislings in the camp, so better to flush and flush hard.

Horses for courses. Corbyn is as much an issue as those walking. I'm disappointed in him to be brutally honest and his hiding throughout the EU debate when it heated up made him look like a man without a plan. Sure, this witch hunt if you want to call it that may not look good but he hasn't exactly covered himself in glory.

[Power n Glory]

Does that explain it, in terms of us being an independent nation that by our very constitution reserves the right to govern itself and set its own laws and defences and foreign and trade policies? Why does this issue never enter into the Remain reckoning when it's the issue at the very heart of the matter?

How is it better for us to govern ourselves, even it that is shitty government? Because we stand far more chance of remedying one layer of shitty government than two. Especially when one is remote and run by people we can't even name and who have no affinity to this island at all.

How the heck are we more independent and governing ourselves when you say we're being run by corporate corporations? Excluding the EU just means money runs from point A to B and cuts out the middle man. Also, you still haven't explained what the end game is here? Burn everything down and leave what?

[Power n Glory]

Yes well the EU actually discriminates against those doctors and nurses and other skilled professionals we required, in favour of economic migrants that have a right to travel as they please. So good news, being outside the EU should shorten that skills gap pretty rapidly.

Yes of course, stop criminals appropriating British assets. Of course, I have always argued for that.

Yes, austerity measures for the poor and champagne for the rich. Of course, I have always been against that.

reams of posts to demonstrate my position.

Now you are trying to pretend that's not my position.
Why?

Your position is unclear. Muddled at best. You can't see the divide and conquer? Have you not noticed the shift and how attention has been turned on poor vs poor?

[Özim]

Yes well the EU actually discriminates against those doctors and nurses and other skilled professionals we required, in favour of economic migrants that have a right to travel as they please. So good news, being outside the EU should shorten that skills gap pretty rapidly.

Excactly for countries in the EU, if you're a worker from outside the EU forget about coming here, discrimination at it's best!

[Niall_Quinn]

Anyway. I'd better do some work.

My work, btw, being entirely self generated off my own back and using my own wit. So far this month I have enough signed up to pay maybe, maybe, 1/4 of the bills. If I don't close that gap I won't eat and nor will the family. As happens one way or another every month, though there were some fucking tough months as my entire profession was outsourced, I'll find a way. This is normality for me so bed-wetting is not one of my pastimes. I believe I'll phone the States and see who wants to trade my time for their dollars. Good time to be taking dollars I hear. If it swings around I'll trade with Brits. I pay an accountant once a year, a kick back the government's protection money once a year, other than that I get on with it. I call it free trade. I agree a price for work that somebody wants done, I do the work, they pay. Sometimes. Bastards.

Where's my EU agreement to ensure big companies pay me in a timely fashion? Now THAT would be fucking useful. No sign though. It's almost as if Europe works for the big guy against the little guy.

Anyway, I'll trade today like I traded yesterday and will trade tomorrow. Time for currency. Maybe I'll succeed, maybe I won't, but I won't shit my pants worrying about it. If a little extra effort is required in the future then that's what I'll apply. If it gets easier then I'll put my feet up for a bit.

Fear doesn't serve me. I taught myself. I work for myself. And anyone - ANYONE - can do it. And many do. There's more to life than being told what you can or can't be by bosses, shitty politicians and their corporate puppet masters. There's a hole different way we could do things if we opened our minds and found our independence. Well, we have a sniff more independence along a long, long road to true independence and, much more importantly, self-independence. Fear won't be the vehicle to get us there.

[Niall_Quinn]

Your position is unclear. Muddled at best. You can't see the divide and conquer? Have you not noticed the shift and how attention has been turned on poor vs poor?

Search for divide and rule, divide and conquer, etc - I suspect quite a few of my posts will come up.

My position is and always has been clear.

[Power n Glory]

Excactly for countries in the EU, if you're a worker from outside the EU forget about coming here, discrimination at it's best!

Do you think those that voted to leave the EU would be happier seeing Non EU and better qualified doctors and nurses working instead of those from the EU? Those from India, the Caribbean, Africa.....?

[Letters]

at the moment we put in far more than we get out and that money can be better spent elsewhere in areas the country needs.
OK, firstly can you back that up with any figures?
Secondly, our "membership fee" is about 0.5% of GDP, we waste far bigger sums on other things - HS2 is apparently estimated at £42.6 billion, that's a couple of year's of EU contributions right there even at the lie figure of £350m

As for "making our own decisions", I don't think the EU stops us doing that to anywhere near the extent the Leave campaign claimed. And agreed about immigration but immigrants have added to our economy, that money just needs to be invested in our infrastructure. I do think it's a concern, I just don't think leaving the EU will fix it. There is a precedent for other countries accepting freedom of movement of EU citizens as part of their deals with the EU.

[Power n Glory]

Search for divide and rule, divide and conquer, etc - I suspect quite a few of my posts will come up.

My position is and always has been clear.


You're full of shit.

[Letters]

Excactly for countries in the EU, if you're a worker from outside the EU forget about coming here, discrimination at it's best!

I know you hate facts, but half our immigration is from outside the EU.

[Özim]

Do you think those that voted to leave the EU would be happier seeing Non EU and better qualified doctors and nurses working instead of those from the EU? Those from India, the Caribbean, Africa.....?

The point is to control immigration not stop it, noone is saying you should stop people coming, but a fairer system where people outside the EU are also able to isn't a bad thing.

[Özim]

I know you hate facts, but half our immigration is from outside the EU.

You'll actually find they are trying to stop nurses from outside the EU by increasing the minimum salary to 35k I think meaning they basically won't be able to come from outside the EU.

It's a lot harder to come and work from outside the EU whether you like it or not, the restrictions are much greater these days.

[Niall_Quinn]

You're full of shit.

Well argued. Search broken is it?

[Özim]

OK, firstly can you back that up with any figures?
Secondly, our "membership fee" is about 0.5% of GDP, we waste far bigger sums on other things - HS2 is apparently estimated at £42.6 billion, that's a couple of year's of EU contributions right there even at the lie figure of £350m

As for "making our own decisions", I don't think the EU stops us doing that to anywhere near the extent the Leave campaign claimed. And agreed about immigration but immigrants have added to our economy, that money just needs to be invested in our infrastructure. I do think it's a concern, I just don't think leaving the EU will fix it. There is a precedent for other countries accepting freedom of movement of EU citizens as part of their deals with the EU.

The figures are available to anyone that looks, search for yourself and you'll see we're one of the few countries who put in more than they get back.

The EU does stop you making decisions whether you like it or not, their rules supercede a menber countries, I don't agree with this and don't think it works, a country should be allowed to decide on what is right and wrong for its own people, not some central government applying a blank rule across 28 nations.

I've never claimed that immigration should be stopped, so they will still contribute, the point was always to be able to control it rather than being forced to accept anyone that wants to come regardless of infrastructure.

[Xhaka Can’t]

http://newsthump.com/2016/06/27/iain-duncan-smith-tells-wife-our-wedding-vows-were-just-a-series-of-possibilities/

[Power n Glory]

Well argued. Search broken is it?

Forgive me for being a little pissed off.

I've seen your previous posts about divide and conquer hence why you're argument here is muddled and unclear. In fact, you've made no attempt to link what you've previously argued to what's going on now. You backed out with a 'back to work' excuse. Either way, it doesn't matter. I think you're inconsistent and very confused about what's going on here.

[Power n Glory]

The point is to control immigration not stop it, noone is saying you should stop people coming, but a fairer system where people outside the EU are also able to isn't a bad thing.

That's your view but I don't think everyone that voted to leave got that message. The leave camp weren't arguing against migration for the benefit of non EU immigrants.

[Niall_Quinn]

Forgive me for being a little pissed off.

I've seen your previous posts about divide and conquer hence why you're argument here is muddled and unclear. In fact, you've made no attempt to link what you've previously argued to what's going on now. You backed out with a 'back to work' excuse. Either way, it doesn't matter. I think you're inconsistent and very confused about what's going on here.

The back to work thing was a response to Letter's notion that he actually knows anything about me. And the fact that uncertainty and instability can be just as creative as it is challenging.

We are on the same team. Obviously. Some people see through the bullshit, others don't. When you have to discuss things with people who don't see - and that's just a statement of fact, it's not a judgement or indictment - then you have to argue in their terms. I can't go discussing structural inequality with some people here - they wouldn't have a clue what I was on about. They'd just say I was a conspiracy theorist or an anarchist and that would be that.

I'm not in the least confused. Removing layers of authoritarianism, despite the fears those authoritarians will generate to protect their own privilege, is what's important to me because I realise that nothing can ever change until that is done. The Leave vote is important to me, not the voting process you understand but the outcome, because it suggests some (not all by any means) may be on the same wavelength.

The EU has to go for us to progress. After that, our local model of lying, thieving sociopaths and psychopaths being elected to positions of power must change. How can we carry baggage like that if we genuinely want to improve together? We can't. We live with these things for now because change can't all rush through the door in one moment. But we chip away. And hopefully the small chip in the EU that has just been made will widen into a crack and then explode. It could happen. It could go either way. But it certainly was only going one way if we voted to remain, effectively endorsing it.

[Letters]

You'll actually find they are trying to stop nurses from outside the EU by increasing the minimum salary to 35k I think meaning they basically won't be able to come from outside the EU.

It's a lot harder to come and work from outside the EU whether you like it or not, the restrictions are much greater these days.

Yes, it's harder, but the rest of the world is a much bigger place than the EU. It still accounts for half of our immigration

[Globalgunner]

The EU isnt all bad and the EU is not the cause of most of the British woes, in fact most of the individual freedoms citizens in the UK have emanate from the EU charter. Left to its own devices the UK would be one of the most citizen liberty restrictive countries in the developed world. All this chauvinism about being rules from Europe is just that. The UK is the 2nd/3rd largest economy in the EU. It would have a greater say in the top jobs if only they would have been closer in aligning with the central tenets of the association.
This is not to say the EU is all good but leaving because you get voted down on key decisions is just what the politicians like Boris are being hubris about. Its pulling a strop.
For instance in Germany all major corporations have workers unions on the governing boards and have almost a veto on key decisions. Surely that is a good thing. The problem is the Tories would never allow that and keeping them in power will never see such a law passed.
Voting Blairite labour will also never see fundamental change
IMHO the problem with this Brexit is that most people have been sold a lie and allowed their prejudices to spur them into voting for something that in the long run in inimical to their own futures.
I can understand the fear of being swamped but the Government was always in a position to argue for a better deal on migration. They should have also seen it coming with the expansion coming from former Soviet countries. That is when the UK should have insisted on provisions that protected its people. Now when the UK has no greater say than Estonia or Poland it cant do anything but whimper in the background.
The people of the UK have been serially let down by successive governments. Now its probably best to be out. spend 10 years fixing things the right way and building its economy to actually provide jobs not purse out handouts. Then maybe apply to get back in.

[Power n Glory]

The back to work thing was a response to Letter's notion that he actually knows anything about me. And the fact that uncertainty and instability can be just as creative as it is challenging.

We are on the same team. Obviously. Some people see through the bullshit, others don't. When you have to discuss things with people who don't see - and that's just a statement of fact, it's not a judgement or indictment - then you have to argue in their terms. I can't go discussing structural inequality with some people here - they wouldn't have a clue what I was on about. They'd just say I was a conspiracy theorist or an anarchist and that would be that.

I'm not in the least confused. Removing layers of authoritarianism, despite the fears those authoritarians will generate to protect their own privilege, is what's important to me because I realise that nothing can ever change until that is done. The Leave vote is important to me, not the voting process you understand but the outcome, because it suggests some (not all by any means) may be on the same wavelength.

The EU has to go for us to progress. After that, our local model of lying, thieving sociopaths and psychopaths being elected to positions of power must change. How can we carry baggage like that if we genuinely want to improve together? We can't. We live with these things for now because change can't all rush through the door in one moment. But we chip away. And hopefully the small chip in the EU that has just been made will widen into a crack and then explode. It could happen. It could go either way. But it certainly was only going one way if we voted to remain, effectively endorsing it.

What I see across Europe and across the Atlantic is no victory. We've gone back 20/30 years when you look at the division. 2008 was a wake up call with more people taking a closer look at what's really going on and more united than seen before. What's on display right now is a huge distraction whilst our pockets are about to get dipped into again. As long as everyone keeps thinking their neighbor is a problem, whatever you envision, whether that be a society without the need of government, I'm just guessing.... it's impossible if things keep going this way. Impossible.

[Letters]

The figures are available to anyone that looks, search for yourself and you'll see we're one of the few countries who put in more than they get back.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Found nothing definitive here. If you know better then please post a link to your source.

[Özim]

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

Found nothing definitive here. If you know better then please post a link to your source.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12176663/EU-Facts-how-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

[Power n Glory]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/1335107/holidays-wages-and-mobile-phone-calls-how-leaving-the-eu-will-affect-your-wallet/

:doh:

The Sun are taking the piss. Spelling out the potential consequences after a strong campaign for Brexit.

[Niall_Quinn]

What I see across Europe and across the Atlantic is no victory. We've gone back 20/30 years when you look at the division. 2008 was a wake up call with more people taking a closer look at what's really going on and more united than seen before. What's on display right now is a huge distraction whilst our pockets are about to get dipped into again. As long as everyone keeps thinking their neighbor is a problem, whatever you envision, whether that be a society without the need of government, I'm just guessing.... it's impossible if things keep going this way. Impossible.

Not impossible. Difficult. Certainly impossible though by allowing bureaucrats to centralise more power. Keep going that way and where does it end? Of course there is division. How can you have change without it? Some will move first and the rest will cling on until the tide moves them. The majority sat on their hands while the minority campaigned for civil rights. Now almost everyone says of course, civil rights are a good thing. But they were won, they weren't granted. The same as all independence and all liberty. In the end big government can never be a good thing. How can it be? The bigger a government gets the smaller the citizen becomes.

[Niall_Quinn]

The new shadow education secretary, Pat Glass, seems to be a genuine human being. Maybe bullshit but she comes across as made of flesh and bone, instead of plastic. 30 more like her and Labour has taken a huge stride.

[Letters]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12176663/EU-Facts-how-much-does-Britain-pay-to-the-EU-budget.html

I'm not sure what point you think that article is making. I guess this bit?:


Taking account of the money that comes back and the aid spending, Britain last year gave almost £6.5 billion to the EU that would otherwise not have been paid out if we were not members of the club. That’s almost £18 million a day.

But it then goes on to say


EU supporters say that money is more than worth it, since it is prerequisite of membership and thus access to the single market, which they say profits the UK by far more than £6.5 billion.
Leave campaigners argue that outside the EU, Britain could still negotiate access to the single market while keeping some or all of that membership money.

The money is a membership fee, some say we far more than that back through the economic benefits that membership brings, others disagree, but it's very hard to be definitive about it.

[Özim]

I'm not sure what point you think that article is making. I guess this bit?:



But it then goes on to say



The money is a membership fee, some say we far more than that back through the economic benefits that membership brings, others disagree, but it's very hard to be definitive about it.

In terms of figures we contribute more than we get back and if you look at net contribution we're 2nd behind Germany, as far as EU supporters are concerned it's no surprise they think the return is far greater than what we put in, why wouldn't they, there's no tangible proof of this only the figures shown.

It has to be noted that plenty of countries also contribute less than they get back, so it's clear why they would be happy with the EU, it's not so clear why we would be.

What is clear is that the EU is clearly a loser from Brexit, they lose the UK's guaranteed contribution and there are now questions about it's stability and whether it can survive.

[Letters]

In terms of figures we contribute more than we get back.

:lol:

Of course in terms of the actual membership fee vs amount they spend on us directly.
How can any 'club' work if they pay all their members back directly more than they contribute?!

The argument is that there are other membership benefits which give us access to the free market generate and thus are more than worth the membership fee. As both your article and mine said, it's impossible to say definitively.

[Özim]

:lol:

Of course in terms of the actual membership fee vs amount they spend on us directly.
How can any 'club' work if they pay all their members back directly more than they contribute?!

The argument is that there are other membership benefits which give us access to the free market generate and thus are more than worth the membership fee. As both your article and mine said, it's impossible to say definitively.

Again benefits aren't tangible, clearly the British people didn't think it was good value for money and that's what you do with memberships, you pay them and if you think they aren't worth the money you cancel them.

The UK has chosen to leave and there's questions in France, Italy and Holland, basically countries who all contribute more than they get back and don't seem to think the membership perks are good enough, so for all the claims of the remain that the EU brings so much more, it seems there's a lot of questions around that assumption around Europe.