EU Referendum

[Kano]

Just seen, Boris is back as Foreign Secretary! Oh boy this is going to be comedy viewing, Boris off to work with all those he's insulted over the years. He's going to be at the forefront of Brexit negotiating our deals :haha:
It's hardly surprising really. Boris got behind May as did Liam Fox. Gove tried to see it out to the end because the snake knew no-one else wanted him. And that Crabb-eyed cunt would be in there too if he hadn't of been sabotaged with those texts with his bit on the side. There was no leadership contest, everyone knew who the leader was going to be and they sure as hell weren't going to allow their members the opportunity to decide. Just a reminder to them as to who runs the show. They rolled out a bunch of stooges, deals were made to take care of them for doing so and because Gove got a bit too greedy with his Cameron/Johnson actions, he was the fall guy.

These figureheads don't actually formuate any deals or discussions, or even policies. Options, opinions and feedback are given to them from within the party and they go with whatever dirty deal they can put together that suits all parties - which is without question influenced by the corporations funding them - which is why they always come back with deals the ordinary person is never happy with.

[selassie]

It's hardly surprising really. Boris got behind May as did Liam Fox. Gove tried to see it out to the end because the snake knew no-one else wanted him. And that Crabb-eyed cunt would be in there too if he hadn't of been sabotaged with those texts with his bit on the side. There was no leadership contest, everyone knew who the leader was going to be and they sure as hell weren't going to allow their members the opportunity to decide. Just a reminder to them as to who runs the show. They rolled out a bunch of stooges, deals were made to take care of them for doing so and because Gove got a bit too greedy with his Cameron/Johnson actions, he was the fall guy.

These figureheads don't actually formuate any deals or discussions, or even policies. Options, opinions and feedback are given to them from within the party and they go with whatever dirty deal they can put together that suits all parties - which is without question influenced by the corporations funding them - which is why they always come back with deals the ordinary person is never happy with.

I agree Kano, it was all decided a while ago, there wasn't a contest.

About Boris, I just feel it's quite ironic given Boris's numerous insults and gaffes to various Global government ministers that he's going to be the Foreign Secretary, made me chuckle seeing him appointed in that role. The Liam Fox appointment as Secretary Of State for International Trade pushes him close though, he was sacked in disgrace 5 years ago and rightly so yet he's now one of the most important figures within government, nice.

[Özim]

I see the EU are already softening their stance on negotiations as predicted, you can't take this organisation seriously. We've heard all the scare stories and they didn't work and now everyone is backtracking realising they haven't got a leg to stand on or really can't afford to do the things they threatened.

May is known as a tough negotiator apparently, the guy in charge of the Brexit is anti EU as well which will help with negotiations, it's all looking better than the car crash we were promised by the remain faithful.

[Özim]

Osborne getting kicked out was great, he was an awful Chancellor and his claims before the referendum were embarrassing and cringeworthy to say the least.

[Letters]

I think we can all agree that everything Zim says is right so long as you move the goalposts enough and ignore facts

:sleep:

[Özim]

I've not shifted any goalposts I dont know what you're talking about, I've stuck to what I said all along. I'm just commenting on what I was expecting to happen, basically they all tried to scaremonger people into voting remain, it didn't work and now all the rubbish they came out with to try and influence voters is having to be backtracked on.

[Letters]

Nothing has even been agreed with the EU or anyone else yet so it's too early to tell what of the scaremongering, if any, will come true.
But the Leave campaign immediately backtracked on the £350m lie and admitted there's no certainty about controlling immigration. Again, it's too early to tell for sure.
The EU will do a deal with us, obviously. What shape that will take is to be decided. Anything you or I say about what it will be is speculation.

[Özim]

Nothing has even been agreed with the EU or anyone else yet so it's too early to tell what of the scaremongering, if any, will come true.
But the Leave campaign immediately backtracked on the £350m lie and admitted there's no certainty about controlling immigration. Again, it's too early to tell for sure.
The EU will do a deal with us, obviously. What shape that will take is to be decided. Anything you or I say about what it will be is speculation.

Not but originally they were adamant no concessions would be made, the UK would have to deal with the consequences etc but low and behold now they are saying they are open to negotiations and that they want a good relationship with the UK etc etc

As for controlling immigration, orginally they pretty much said no chance, but now there's murmurs of being open to a deal, moreover Theresa May is a hard negotiator and I've got no doubt we'll end up with controlled immigration which is what everyone wants.

You keep mentioning the £350 million but that's the one thing they've backtracked on wherease the remain have backtracked on so much more, it just shows that essentially they were just saying things to make people vote remain, a lot of things, tho no doubt did as well but not as much IMO.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

And the worst government....... in the world.

Well Labour do have a Jeremy at the moment. :tiphat:


I agree Kano, it was all decided a while ago, there wasn't a contest.

About Boris, I just feel it's quite ironic given Boris's numerous insults and gaffes to various Global government ministers that he's going to be the Foreign Secretary, made me chuckle seeing him appointed in that role. The Liam Fox appointment as Secretary Of State for International Trade pushes him close though, he was sacked in disgrace 5 years ago and rightly so yet he's now one of the most important figures within government, nice.

You know what, this is exactly what I was going to post. For all of the annoyance about Boris, the real fox in sheep's clothing (excuse the pun) is Liam Fox. The guy is absolutely corrupt and bent. Speaking as someone of Sri Lankan heritage, he's a guy that took gifts from a previous genocidal regime there (and failed to declare them), had a "business associate" try and profit from his official foreign trips as defence minister etc etc........................................... and now he's made International Trade Minister where he has to woo other countries (and get wooed himself) and make deals ........ yeah what can go wrong there. :rolleyes: I can tolerate the others (Davis is a good man even if I disagree with him and the worse that Boris will do is just embarrass us) but I'm livid about Fox's reappointment - it's a complete disgrace tbh.


Nothing has even been agreed with the EU or anyone else yet so it's too early to tell what of the scaremongering, if any, will come true.
But the Leave campaign immediately backtracked on the £350m lie and admitted there's no certainty about controlling immigration. Again, it's too early to tell for sure.
The EU will do a deal with us, obviously. What shape that will take is to be decided. Anything you or I say about what it will be is speculation.

Yeah this. :lol:

Amazing that Zim can make such bold predictions after literally three weeks. :lol: It's going to take at least half a decade to fully analyse the effects of this if that ...... probably closer to a decade.

But with our growth forecasts being revised and our economy literally overnight falling from the 5th largest to 6th largest due to how much the pound fell then the signs aren't good. My fear is that we're going to get a lost decade of teenagers .......... may not be a concern to those already in good employment or well-off but not good for a country. The real irony as well being that it was teenagers who voted in mass to stay but the old farts who voted to leave.

[Letters]

Not but originally they were adamant no concessions would be made, the UK would have to deal with the consequences etc but low and behold now they are saying they are open to negotiations and that they want a good relationship with the UK etc etc

As for controlling immigration, orginally they pretty much said no chance, but now there's murmurs of being open to a deal, moreover Theresa May is a hard negotiator and I've got no doubt we'll end up with controlled immigration which is what everyone wants.

You keep mentioning the £350 million but that's the one thing they've backtracked on wherease the remain have backtracked on so much more, it just shows that essentially they were just saying things to make people vote remain, a lot of things, tho no doubt did as well but not as much IMO.
I keep mentioning the £350 million because it was painted on the side of their f***ing bus! It was always a lie, they immediately admitted it was a lie.
As for the rest, as I said yes of course they will do a deal with us but we already had a deal with them - we weren't a full member of the EU in certain ways, we had rebates and concessions. Will we now get a better deal with them? We can keep going "Oh yes we will", "Oh no we won't" like kids at a pantomime but the truth is we don't know right now.

[Niall_Quinn]

...it's too early to tell what of the scaremongering, if any, will come true.

:haha:

[Özim]

I keep mentioning the £350 million because it was painted on the side of their f***ing bus! It was always a lie, they immediately admitted it was a lie.
As for the rest, as I said yes of course they will do a deal with us but we already had a deal with them - we weren't a full member of the EU in certain ways, we had rebates and concessions. Will we now get a better deal with them? We can keep going "Oh yes we will", "Oh no we won't" like kids at a pantomime but the truth is we don't know right now.

We got some rebates, but those were just part of what we contributed, despite that we were still the 2nd biggest contributor financially, many other countries got more than they put in.

How do I know we'll get a good deal, simple 5th biggest economy in the world, they need to be on friendly terms with us, Germany their biggest contributor exports a great deal to us as well, as I've said before they need us in more ways than one, we're a powerful country.

[Letters]

How do I know we'll get a good deal
You don't.

[Özim]

You don't.

and you don't know we'll get the same deal as now either. Why bother debating.

[Letters]

and you don't know we'll get the same deal as now either. Why bother debating.

...that's exactly what I said :lol:

We have debated, we've given our opinions. We disagree. Fine. But ultimately there is now nothing new to debate. We'll get a deal with the EU, we don't know the details. Till we do what else is there to say other than going round and round in circles repeating ourselves? We've done that enough.

EDIT. In brief:

https://mcgarnagle.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/vlcsnap-00018.jpg

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfqSFQlDae8

:lol:

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Nothing will ever beat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyTK2JLmwFE

[Xhaka Can’t]

and you don't know we'll get the same deal as now either. Why bother debating.

You aren't debating, you are talking in absolutes and arriving at conclusions within weeks of the referendum and before Article 50 has even been enacted.

[GP]

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Are you sure?

[GP]

Absolutely

[selassie]

Well Labour do have a Jeremy at the moment. :tiphat:



You know what, this is exactly what I was going to post. For all of the annoyance about Boris, the real fox in sheep's clothing (excuse the pun) is Liam Fox. The guy is absolutely corrupt and bent. Speaking as someone of Sri Lankan heritage, he's a guy that took gifts from a previous genocidal regime there (and failed to declare them), had a "business associate" try and profit from his official foreign trips as defence minister etc etc........................................... and now he's made International Trade Minister where he has to woo other countries (and get wooed himself) and make deals ........ yeah what can go wrong there. :rolleyes: I can tolerate the others (Davis is a good man even if I disagree with him and the worse that Boris will do is just embarrass us) but I'm livid about Fox's reappointment - it's a complete disgrace tbh.



Aye, the Liam Fox appointment tells us everything we need to know about how corrupt and bent modern day government/politics really is. Like you said he's as corrupt as they come, he's basically a crook, a serial offender too!

[GP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_I2rfApYk

[The Emirates Gallactico]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273


Brexit plunges UK economy to worst level since 2009, data suggests

Britain's decision to leave the EU has led to a "dramatic deterioration" in economic activity, not seen since the aftermath of the financial crisis.
Data from IHS Markit's Purchasing Manager's Index, or PMI, shows a fall to 47.7 in July, the lowest level since April in 2009. A reading below 50 indicates contraction.

Both manufacturing and service sectors saw a decline in output and orders. However, exports picked up, driven by the weakening of the pound. The report surveyed more than 650 services companies, from sectors including transport, business services, computing and restaurants. It is the first significant set of data measuring business reaction to the result of the UK referendum.


But, but, but ................ Boris, Gove, Zim and NQ promised me that the experts were all wrong and they were right!!!!!! :coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273



But, but, but ................ Boris, Gove, Zim and NQ said promised me that the experts were all wrong and they were right!!!!!! :coffee:

We've dropped to 47.7 on the IHS Markit's Purchasing Manager's Index! Fuck! Not one single person, including the people running that index, has any idea what that actually means - but it sounds real bad! Sounds to me like consumers have stopped buying overpriced shit, people have started cooking at home rather than blowing cash being waited on and, horror or horrors, we're starting to sell shit to people rather than buy it. Oh wait - does that mean the deficit is under threat? Does that mean we might start seeing jobs created in real industries rather than pop-up service industries? Well I hope so. Because "growth", according to these fools, is a measure of the economy. And do you know what "growth" is? Debt. So what they are really saying (without realising it I assume) is debt is falling and the deficit is improving, has to be if growth is down and exports are up - right?

Do you seriously believe ANYTHING these so-called economists say? Have you examined their track record? Would you believe Chicken Licken if she ran up and clucked a warning the sky was falling? No you wouldn't. But when the sky DID fall, preceded by the most compelling set of financial indicators since the great depression, these experts were telling us we never had it so good. They have AGENDAS not facts. You have credit rating agencies triple A stamping packets of shit and mailing them to the experts like Greenspan who sniff deeply and proclaim it smells like roses. TRUE or FALSE? You have a government that says borrow, borrow, borrow, because tomorrow never comes. TRUE or FALSE? And these are the types of people we are supposed to believe when they roll out a 47.7 on some fictional index?

The real measure of growth is capital and savings. These geniuses have fucked the economy so badly that saving is impossible (in fact incompetence doesn't do it justice, soon you will have to PAY to save. This is how clueless they are) and growth can't happen because the billions held behind a damn that has been used to prop up the criminal banks cannot possibly be released into the broader economy because it will wash it away in inflation. And all of this is perched on top of a system of mutually assured destruction presided over by the banksters and their close on 300 trillion dollars worth of derivatives dominoes. Where is mention of this in the 47.7 percent doo-dah whatsimajig thingy that we should be so worried about?

These problems were here long before Brexit, as were the zero hour contracts, welfare cuts, declining health service, political scandal, bankster fraud and every other ingredient in a giant shit stew. All made by the 47.7 point, shit smells sweet guys who - I'm betting - managed to scalp a few dollars on the way down. And the one thing that could make this all a lot worse is if these criminal incompetents get their way with super states and mega "trade" (real crime) deals. They want to lock this insanity up forever so it can never be changed. That's why we are 47.7 on the imaginary index. That's why the Remain MP May has announced the refusal to accept the will of the majority. Because these fuckers won't take no for an answer. And they rely on all of us to swallow their bullshit. It's up to us if we do or don't.

[Özim]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36864273



But, but, but ................ Boris, Gove, Zim and NQ promised me that the experts were all wrong and they were right!!!!!! :coffee:

:lol:


The UK's new chancellor, Philip Hammond, urged caution.

"Let's be clear, the PMI data is a measure of sentiment, it's not a measure of any hard activity in the economy.

"What it tells us is businesses confidence has been dented, they're not sure, they're in a period of uncertainty now."

Another BS nonsense headline, I guess some people get taken in by the headlines, none of this is a surprise to anyone.

[Letters]

Funny how it's a 'Nonsense BS headline' when it doesn't say what you want it to but you're happy to cite ones which do. Obviously they're the 'right' ones.

#goalposts

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Zim and NQ are in a tag team.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol:



Another BS nonsense headline, I guess some people get taken in by the headlines, none of this is a surprise to anyone.


So you're saying that Market confidence isn't hit during periods of uncertainty? Or are you saying this isn't a period of uncertainty which it clearly is as no-one even those who advocated the most for it have any idea what we are going to end up with.

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2016/07/22/brexiter-annoyed-by-people-pointing-out-that-thing-they-were-told-would-happen-is-happening/

:lol:

[Özim]

So you're saying that Market confidence isn't hit during periods of uncertainty? Or are you saying this isn't a period of uncertainty which it clearly is as no-one even those who advocated the most for it have any idea what we are going to end up with.

No I'm not saying that, I'm saying the headline makes it look like the economy has caved in on itself, as posted this isn't a measure of activity just of sentiment.

Besides uncertainty was to be expected if we left the EU, anyone who thought otherwise clearly doesn't understand much about the issue.

[Özim]

Uh-oh every big business is going to leave and we'll be left with nothing.

GSK investing in the UK despite Brexit :coffee:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

[Letters]

:lol: Goalposts :bow:

[Özim]

:lol: Goalposts :bow:

You do come out with some nonsense :rolleyes:

[Letters]

You do come out with some nonsense :rolleyes:

We have so much in common then. :)

You do this all the time. A positive headline and you rush to post it, shouting "See? See? I told you!"
A negative headline and if someone else posts it you dismiss it as "nonsense".

You move the goalposts constantly and pick and choose what you think is valid depending on what you've already decided to be so.
In brief, you're a cockwomble.
:tiphat:

[Özim]

We have so much in common then. :)

You do this all the time. A positive headline and you rush to post it, shouting "See? See? I told you!"
A negative headline and if someone else posts it you dismiss it as "nonsense".

You move the goalposts constantly and pick and choose what you think is valid depending on what you've already decided to be so.
In brief, you're a cockwomble.
:tiphat:

This was concrete information no some nonsense about a measure of sentiment (that's not an economic measure unless I'm mistaken). It's funny how all the these companies came out and said they may have to leave the UK and the opposite is happening, just shows there were as many claims on both sides of the argument.

I haven't moved any goalposts either, as specified above

[Kano]

This was concrete information no some nonsense about a measure of sentiment (that's not an economic measure unless I'm mistaken). It's funny how all the these companies came out and said they may have to leave the UK and the opposite is happening, just shows there were as many claims on both sides of the argument.

I haven't moved any goalposts either, as specified above
BBC = pro Brexit
Guardian = anti-Brexit

The BBC runs a wholly positive outlook and the Guardian's tone changes from the second paragraph onwards, despite discussing the same subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/27/gsk-says-britain-still-an-attractive-place-to-invest-brexit

Pick and choose the stories that fit in with your wider beliefs. We all do it. No one is immune.

The point being that one outlet isn't better than the other (because they all do it, depending on their political/financial stance) but rating one higher than the other comes down to our individual desperation to find a valid solution.

What football rumour are you willing to buy into?

[Power n Glory]

Zim and NQ are in a tag team.

Legion of Doom or The Bushwhackers? They need a name.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

BBC = pro Brexit
Guardian = anti-Brexit

The BBC runs a wholly positive outlook and the Guardian's tone changes from the second paragraph onwards, despite discussing the same subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/jul/27/gsk-says-britain-still-an-attractive-place-to-invest-brexit

Pick and choose the stories that fit in with your wider beliefs. We all do it. No one is immune.

The point being that one outlet isn't better than the other (because they all do it, depending on their political/financial stance) but rating one higher than the other comes down to our individual desperation to find a valid solution.

What football rumour are you willing to buy into?

I think the BBC are more of the attitude of well this is the road we've gone down, so might as well hope it works out for the best.

[Kano]

Their coverage beforehand was very much behind the idea I thought, which it was accused of from some quarters I think.

[Letters]

I saw a few debates which seemed pretty balanced to me.
It's like supporting a football team, I think. Whoever you support you think the ref is biased against you!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The BBC is not very quick on the pulse when it comes to reporting breaking news, however it constantly receives accusation from both sides of bias which rather for me makes it a more neutral source.

Farage has accused it of being full of PC Liberals and the Corbyn lot have booed Laura Kuennsberg as if she was a pantomime villain.

I personally prefer Channel 4 news, and i tend to ignore anyone who is scathing of BBC News but in turn praises Sky News...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I saw a few debates which seemed pretty balanced to me.
It's like supporting a football team, I think. Whoever you support you think the ref is biased against you!

Aye

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2016/07/27/see-the-economy-grew-0-6-beams-calendar-challenged-brexiter/

:lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

By calender challenged Brexiter do they actually mean the Daily Express which refers to "Booming Britain"

I hope whichever side people chose on the EU, that everyone can appreciate that Richard Desmond is a c**t

[Niall_Quinn]

Britain is booming, or shortly will be. Boom! The explosives were stacked and the fuse lit long before Brexit.

[Letters]

Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Boom, boom, boom.


Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Boom, boom, boom.

[Niall_Quinn]

Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Boom, boom, boom.


Boom, boom, boom, boom.
Boom, boom, boom.

Why have you got a pencil stuck up each nostril?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why have you got a pencil stuck up each nostril?

Wibble!

[Letters]

More 'BS nonsense headlines'

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/manufacturing-slumps-in-wake-of-brexit-with-jobs-lost-across-sector-34930352.html

[Özim]

More 'BS nonsense headlines'

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/manufacturing-slumps-in-wake-of-brexit-with-jobs-lost-across-sector-34930352.html

Ironic that you post this really after what you've said about me posting, pot calling the kettle black really.....

[Letters]

Just interested to know your take on the figures. You seem happy to place great stock on other stories which show good news but pooh-pooh or ignore ones which show the reverse.

[Özim]

Just interested to know your take on the figures. You seem happy to place great stock on other stories which show good news but pooh-pooh or ignore ones which show the reverse.

I'll come out with something like that next time I post something then.

[Letters]

Ah. Ignoring it then. Carry on :good:

[Özim]

Just interested to know your take on the figures. You seem happy to place great stock on other stories which show good news but pooh-pooh or ignore ones which show the reverse.

What do I think of the new figures, I think they are driven by fear and ultimately that was always going to happen short term since there's uncertainty, again nothing unexpected.

We're due a recession anyway, the economy works in peaks and troughs.

[Letters]

You do this all the time. A positive headline and you rush to post it, shouting "See? See? I told you!"
A negative headline and if someone else posts it you dismiss it as "nonsense".
So, again, you're just doing exactly what I said you do...

[Özim]

So, again, you're just doing exactly what I said you do...

Well no, if you know anything about economics you would understand this, it's just common sense, what did you expect to happen a massive boom?

We're in uncertain times, there's no set plan in place for anything yet, so naturally there would be an element of nervousness. For some reason you seem unable to comprehend this.

[Letters]

No, I didn't expect a massive boom. Every economic forecast predicted we'd see a slowdown in the economy following a Brexit vote which would probably push us into recession.

But you've been saying for ages that things will be fine and cheerily posting any positive news you can find on the economy. Every negative piece of news is dismissed or ignored. It's your classic goalpost shifting, it's all you do. You have zero ability to think logically about anything. You form an opinion based on godknowswhat and just stubbornly stick to it regardless of evidence. Anything which appears to back it up is cheerily shared, anything that shows it's balls is ignored or dismissed.

Now you're saying we're due a recession anyway?! :blink: Funny how you've only just mentioned that. Before it was "every little thing is gonna be alright", now it's "yeah, well this was due anyway". Goalposts...

[LDG]

No, I didn't expect a massive boom. Every economic forecast predicted we'd see a slowdown in the economy following a Brexit vote which would probably push us into recession.

But you've been saying for ages that things will be fine and cheerily posting any positive news you can find on the economy. Every negative piece of news is dismissed or ignored. It's your classic goalpost shifting, it's all you do. You have zero ability to think logically about anything. You form an opinion based on godknowswhat and just stubbornly stick to it regardless of evidence. Anything which appears to back it up is cheerily shared, anything that shows it's balls is ignored or dismissed.

Now you're saying we're due a recession anyway?! :blink: Funny how you've only just mentioned that. Before it was "every little thing is gonna be alright", now it's "yeah, well this was due anyway". Goalposts...

I fairness to Zimm, he was saying originally that the forecasts speculating a mass crash out of all proportions, was doom-mongering.

And he's right we're due a dip in a boom/bust cycle.

I must admit, I was fearing the worst, but things seem to be reasonably stable, considering. I'm just wondering whether that's because it's the calm before the storm.....these things take a while to play out.

Be interested to see whether they cut rates on Thursday.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The point that everyone seems to be forgetting is that we are still in the EU, the post referendum mayhem was a result of the markets reacting negatively to uncertainty.

You know I hate to use this term but we are in the "waiting period", and it's true we don't know what will happen. But we don't know is somewhere on the spectrum between we don't know if the economic waters will be slightly choppy or we are likely to experience something cataclysmic.

I don't think it will be cataclysmic, and if it is there will be additional factors like a downturn in the Chinese market.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's because deals are being negotiated behind the scenes as we speak. Deals to benefit the few at the expense of the many, as always. This would be the case whether the vote was leave or remain. A remain would mean more focus on US/ EU trade crimesagreements and a leave means the corporations use other means to achieve the same results. This was always inevitable. Brexit will be used to pin all sorts of shit on from hereon in. But ultimately, behind the scenes and long before any referendum, the west is bankrupt. Western central banks have been printing so much money that their currencies only survive in relation to each other and because currencies that could wipe the west out are pegged to the dollar. This is why we have the carefully unmentioned largest build up of forces since WWII sitting in Asia, the Chinese have been playing naughty with their exchange rates. People imagine Brexit could affect us, never a mention of the Chinese currency and the unimaginably huge trade deficits. And the BRIC alliance. And the derivatives bubble, and so on. There are literally hundreds of fault points all interconnected. Brexit is like being afraid a wasp will sting you as you stand on the M1 about to get hit by an 18-wheeler.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

the trajectory we appear to be on, the 18 wheeler might come as a blessed relief.

[Letters]

I fairness to Zimm, he was saying originally that the forecasts speculating a mass crash out of all proportions, was doom-mongering.

And he's right we're due a dip in a boom/bust cycle.

I must admit, I was fearing the worst, but things seem to be reasonably stable, considering. I'm just wondering whether that's because it's the calm before the storm.....these things take a while to play out.

Be interested to see whether they cut rates on Thursday.

Were there any forecasts saying that though? All I heard was the prediction that Brexit would affect the economy negatively and could push us into recession. Of course it was never going to be the end of civilization as we know it and if there was hyperbole about it then it was no worse than the hyperbole from the Brexiters about how doomed we'd be if we stay.

But yes, of course it will take a while before we really know the impact. I suspect in the long term we will be OK although I think in part that's because my guess is our deal with the EU will allow us to go on pretty much as we did before - point being it won't fix a lot of the things the Brexiters claimed it would.

[Xhaka Can’t]

People who hold the EU responsible for everything that’s gone wrong in their lives have voiced their anger at the merest suggestion that the vote for Brexit is having a negative effect on the UK.

With Theresa May adamant that Brexit means Brexit and Boris Johnson insisting that arse means elbow, Leave supporters have been quick to pour scorn on anyone expressing concerns about what the future holds.

“Bremaniac traitor scum should stop talking our country down,” said committed patriot Simon Williams.

“We should hang them all from lampposts and feed their internal organs to the pigeons.”

The UK’s youth have expressed particular concerns that their future has been decided by the older generation.

“It’s like being given an inheritance I can only spend in BHS,” one concerned student told us.

Angry Brexiteers have dismissed these concerns and insisted that the future of Great Britain should “Stop moaning, you lazy know-nothing cunts!”

Reports of a massive increase in race hate crimes, since the UK voted to leave, have also been rubbished and anyone fearful of the future told to “Shut up, you bad loser vermin bastards!”.

“It’s ridiculous to say that all Leave voters are racist,” insisted Mr Williams.

“You might have a case for saying all racists voted Leave, but that’s not the point.

“Twats that voted Remain should respect democracy and keep their mouths shut!”





http://newsthump.com/2016/08/03/people-who-blamed-everything-on-eu-before-referendum-now-angry-if-anything-blamed-on-brexit/

[Letters]

:lol: Aye, saw that earlier.
Newsthump :bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

Actually no. Newsthump is meant to be a satirical commentator but it lost all it's objectivity during the referendum and now it's conveying more bitterness than humour. There's only so many times they can run that same piece before it becomes a little stale. Both sides are being stupid to varying degrees but some (only a minority) of the remain lot are frankly embarrassing. They of course have every right to continue to argue their point, a referendum result doesn't remove the right to speech. But there's a nasty little undertone of seemingly wanting to see as much economic chaos as possible in order to validate what they originally claimed. As it is, there has been surprisingly limited fallout from the decision which will very plainly be short term and most of which isn't even connected with the referendum but has been pinned on it because it distracts from the real state of our economy, and the western economy in general, which is dire beyond all previous measures. Because these remain die hards mainly don't have the first clue what they are talking about they are missing out on another huge story that would give them all the doom and gloom they are desperately seeking. But for them it's not about the economy anyway, it's instead about some strange attachment to Europe that I doubt even they could explain.

[Xhaka Can’t]

All that has happened is a non binding referendum decision. Using your own logic, our overlords will pay no attention to it. Perhaps a facade, but no more.

Article 50 has not been activated and probably never will.

You know full well why the sky hasn't fallen.

[Niall_Quinn]

All that has happened is a non binding referendum decision. Using your own logic, our overlords will pay no attention to it. Perhaps a facade, but no more.

Article 50 has not been activated and probably never will.

You know full well why the sky hasn't fallen.

The non-binding nature of the referendum result is the reason it will have to be executed in some form, likely limited and neutered as you say. Otherwise too much focus would be drawn to the true nature of democracy in this country and the system that states representation in reality only exists for a few moments every half decade when you are invited to vote for a collection of pre-selected candidates. So Article 50 probably will be triggered but by then the true beneficiaries of European union will have made their alternative arrangements.

[Letters]

Newsthump isn't a public service, they have no requirement to be impartial. It's pretty clear they're in the Remain camp and of course those views are reflected in the things they write on this subject.
Had the result gone the other way then the Leave campaign would be just as bitter and embarrassing. The infamous poll on a re-run was actually started by a Leaver in anticipation of a close defeat and Farage said before the vote that a 52-48 vote would mean 'unfinished business'.
I don't think anyone wants to see economic chaos but I guess part of us all enjoys a "told you so".
Of course there has been limited fallout so far because once the smoke cleared nothing has actually changed yet - we're still in the EU. There are gloomy clouds on the horizon but it is too early to know for sure what the impact will be.
Long term I suspect things will be fine, if only because we'll probably trigger 'Article 50 Lite' which will involve a deal with the EU so similar to what we already have that it will be the worst of both worlds. The Remainers will be unhappy because we've lost any influence we had in the EU (which was more than the Leavers claimed) but will still have to deal with all the EU nonsense. The Leavers will be unhappy because we don't all have a new hospital at the end of our road and we still have high immigration.

:partytime:

[Power n Glory]

Interest rates to be cut today.

[Niall_Quinn]

Newsthump isn't a public service, they have no requirement to be impartial. It's pretty clear they're in the Remain camp and of course those views are reflected in the things they write on this subject.
Had the result gone the other way then the Leave campaign would be just as bitter and embarrassing. The infamous poll on a re-run was actually started by a Leaver in anticipation of a close defeat and Farage said before the vote that a 52-48 vote would mean 'unfinished business'.
I don't think anyone wants to see economic chaos but I guess part of us all enjoys a "told you so".
Of course there has been limited fallout so far because once the smoke cleared nothing has actually changed yet - we're still in the EU. There are gloomy clouds on the horizon but it is too early to know for sure what the impact will be.
Long term I suspect things will be fine, if only because we'll probably trigger 'Article 50 Lite' which will involve a deal with the EU so similar to what we already have that it will be the worst of both worlds. The Remainers will be unhappy because we've lost any influence we had in the EU (which was more than the Leavers claimed) but will still have to deal with all the EU nonsense. The Leavers will be unhappy because we don't all have a new hospital at the end of our road and we still have high immigration.

:partytime:

Well, I'm so relieved to find out that nothing much is going to change as a result of the whole business. What would be really useful is if voters from both sides took the time to study beyond such a narrow and comparatively insignificant issue and look at the wider global economy. It wouldn't hurt to examine the nature of representation and democracy in our country either. Then we could all be unified in our panic and doom mongering and outrage we'd be justified.

[Niall_Quinn]

Interest rates to be cut today.

Of course. Stealing from the prudent to bail out casino junkies and counterfeiters is about the only device left. What a privilege it will soon be to be able to pay the banks for misusing our wealth. An interesting little consumer scam is unwinding at the moment. The government has rushed to the assistance of the hard pressed pleb and "forced" the major banks into being fairer with their charges. Roughly translated this means they've headed off wider exposure of another great multi-billion banking scandal and fraud to make it look like we've been done a favour. The absolutely intended fallout is that smaller banks are rapidly losing accounts back to the big abusive banks. This is in preparation for the coming bail-in. This is literally the greatest exercise in survival of the un-fittest that has ever been mounted. All under our noses and in our faces.

This could be done another way. Instead of robbing everyone to keep the rancid economy afloat for a while longer, government could go into competition with the central banksters and enter a contract with the people of the country. That would herald earth shattering change in favour of the little guy and the majority and would be hugely beneficial to the nation as the government would get it's hands on an accountable and audit-able resource that could fund the nation without deficit. It would eradicate the City of London overnight and convert debt based growth into capital based growth. We'd have a real economy. Corbyn has actually suggested this. Which is why he's unelectable.

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2016/08/05/48-of-brits-secretly-hoping-the-economy-will-turn-to-shit/

:lol:

[Nayan]

I particularly enjoyed the casting of debt and 'financialisation' as something new. As I've said before the idea of credit is that someone trusts you to
pay what you owe in the future enough to let you build homes, raise kids, start businesses etc using their money today. As a result capital that would otherwise not get formed does in fact spring into existence.

If you've ever read The Merchant of Venice or pondered Christ casting the moneylenders from his temple you can see that there is a 'Luddite' mistrust of this wheeze. Arguably the invocation of 'usury' and declaration that interest is unearned income without effort is the same thing that Shakespeare turns over with 'neither a borrower nor a lender be.' And which lets anti Semitic bike into the Labour Party under the guise of class struggle. That's what the sun rises and sets with on planet Momemtum after all.

[Niall_Quinn]

I particularly enjoyed the casting of debt and 'financialisation' as something new. As I've said before the idea of credit is that someone trusts you to
pay what you owe in the future enough to let you build homes, raise kids, start businesses etc using their money today. As a result capital that would otherwise not get formed does in fact spring into existence.

If you've ever read The Merchant of Venice or pondered Christ casting the moneylenders from his temple you can see that there is a 'Luddite' mistrust of this wheeze. Arguably the invocation of 'usury' and declaration that interest is unearned income without effort is the same thing that Shakespeare turns over with 'neither a borrower nor a lender be.' And which lets anti Semitic bike into the Labour Party under the guise of class struggle. That's what the sun rises and sets with on planet Momemtum after all.

Lending for a competitive return is one thing, compounding interest and fractional reserve banking another entirely. Why did Christ kick the moneylenders out, aside for their presence being inappropriate? Not because they were money lenders, but because they had used every unscrupulous technique to corner the market. Rather like the money lenders of today. An alarm should go off every time the anti-Semitic blanket is thrown. It has become anti-Semitic to question the practices of the bank, to question the historical record and evidence. To even question it mind you, not deny it or attempt to subvert it. When it becomes illegal to even speak about abuse then you know the abusers hold the whip.

[Nayan]

nobody is claiming banks have acted correctly in every regard though of course a student politics hatred of fractional reserve banking shows a complete lack of understanding of monetary economics, credit creation and the normal functioning of Most economies. No point arguing about that -Watson et al have s view of banks (perfectly fine as long as they are owned by the state) and nothing is going to change their dogma. meanwhile the rest of the world will simply pat them on the head and get on with it.

As for the anti Semitic thing - there's nothing wrong with calling the government/banks nexus out for bad behaviour. However it's not hard to see there is a default setting hatred of 'the establishment' behind the knee jerk reaction of the hard left here. Personally I think it's a misguided world view at play as opposed to put and out anti Semitism though. It goes something like this
'I must stand up for the oppressed'
'Israel is rich and Palestinians are poor. I therefore support Hamas'
'Caribbean mothers work hard for their kids. I therefore hate blonde nurses. and support Hamas.
'Jewish Banksters and George Osborne are rich. Miners are poor' I therefore hate banks and support Hamas

Clearly this gets pretty gamey pretty fast. So the next step is to get a human rights lawyer to whitewash the Jew hating bit. Oh yeah Maybe muzzle Red Ken before he ejaculates his crap about Hitler again. Be alright - Bung a brick through a window if anyone moans . Maybe a rape threat or two. Gobby cows just won't stop complaining! As for the lawyer Bung her a peerage or sommat.

What could possibly go wrong?

[Niall_Quinn]

Well I suppose that might be true if you approach economics strictly from a political perspective. But the principles of economics can stand alone outside the politics and when you look at the principles then fractional reserve banking can't possibly provide long term benefit, not even for the very few who benefit from it short to medium term. It's not dogma to suggest inflating the money supply in a mechanical rather than a considered manner is bad for the economy, especially when that inflation has an automatic debt attached that can only be serviced through the further inflation of the money supply.

It's a system of mathematical mutually assured destruction for both the borrower and the lender. And the maths certainly isn't political. There are (and have been) much more effective methods to expand growth and employ capital. Ultimately the best currency is removed from the political arena and has the profit incentive stripped. Then it can be used as a tool, which was the original intention. It would have utility pinned to some tangible expression of value rather than being a constantly inflating item of faith. But of course to stabilise currencies and convert them back to their original function would mean literally trillions of dollars loss to a comparatively very small number of private individuals. And so the politics re-enters the fray and the politicians are purchased and instructed to never mention such things.

Hence we can talk about the economy with furrowed brows and spectacles on tips of noses without ever actually talking about the economy. Iy has become theatre that has zero bearing on reality and leaves the "conventional" commentators as about as effective as the hard left who would like to put everything in a pot and play two for me, one for you. We haven't had a serious public debate about economics in this country for centuries. The Americans are far better at raising the matter and have even acted in the past, although ultimately they were routed in the battle against the private banks.

[Nayan]

There have been attempts to 'stabilise' currencies. The Gold standard and European Monetary Union were both that and have each been disasters. They didn't just hurt a few wealthy financiers but impoverished entire nations.

[Niall_Quinn]

There have been attempts to 'stabilise' currencies. The Gold standard and European Monetary Union were both that and have each been disasters. They didn't just hurt a few wealthy financiers but impoverished entire nations.

I didn't mean the gold standard, although that was infinitely better than what we have now despite its flaws. I meant the attachment of debt to public borrowing. It is unnecessary and inflationary. Government has every right to control the money supply without issuing bonds into the hands of the private sector or attaching other forms of unsustainable debt. Misused, of course, this power becomes a threat to the entire economy. Rather like the realised threats and regular catastrophes brought down on us by the responsible private individuals who are trusted to do a job that a government apparently can't. Every objection to this is a sham, a dire warning designed to deter the derailment of the gravy train. The government can start wars, send thousand into incarceration, set entire policies fora nation. But it is not competent to handle the money supply. Who believes that except those who equate the BBC with gospel? It's ludicrous. We hear how we can't place control of such a critical function into the hands of those who could at least be lobbied to be representative, so instead we hand it to the most unrepresentative, self interested and overtly criminal gang we can find. I think we both know who is calling the shots.

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2016/08/18/far-more-important-im-proved-right-than-for-brexit-to-be-successful-says-remain-supporter/

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://newsthump.com/2016/08/18/far-more-important-im-proved-right-than-for-brexit-to-be-successful-says-remain-supporter/

All humour aside, I am left with no choice but to hope Brexit is successful despite having no reason to believe that it will (although i am able and willing to accept that a measure of success is things not becoming markedly worse than they already are which depends what kind of Brexit we end up with). What some Brexiters demand is that people who vote for Remain put their doubts aside and be as happy as they are about the vague notion of "taking back the country" and are more than willing to put the blame for anything that goes wrong with leaving on The EU on our negative attitude.

I don't think my attitude is negative, I live in this country it's very much in my interest to be wrong about the detrimental fallout of this....but i think the burden is on people that wanted this to prove to me that it will work.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It won't work. There is no plan. Our leaders simply do not know what to do. We are told by those we want to establish bilateral trade agreements with that we need to sort our shit out with Europe first. And we haven't got a clue how to do that.

[Letters]

I think long term it will be OKish, mostly because I believe our eventual deal with the EU will be so similar to the current one to leave everyone unhappy.
I mostly posted that as a response to NQ's thoughts that Newsthump had an agenda. I guess individuals who work there (is that a full time job? It's an awesome one if so) will have opinions which will be reflected in the stuff they right but mostly I think they're in it for the lolz.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think long term it will be OKish, mostly because I believe our eventual deal with the EU will be so similar to the current one to leave everyone unhappy.
I mostly posted that as a response to NQ's thoughts that Newsthump had an agenda. I guess individuals who work there (is that a full time job? It's an awesome one if so) will have opinions which will be reflected in the stuff they right but mostly I think they're in it for the lolz.

The thing is in order to ensure that is the case, Labour actually needs a leader who has any credibility and actually cares about the consequences of us leaving the EU (I.e doesn't call for Article 50 to be invoked the morning after the referendum). Theresa May is going to be leaned on by the right in her party to go for Hard Brexit and totally cut all ties with both the EU and the single market, it requires Labour to pull her in the other direction in order to represent the very large minority of people who do not want us to leave and are still very concerned about the consequences.

Of course there are a great deal of Labour voters who voted to leave, but it won't be going against their interests to press May to get the best possible severance deal. I think for what it's worth Owen Smith is a dead loss, and even in the tiny chance that he did win we wouldn't be doing remarkably better than we did under Ed Milliband, but i think there is something to be said for offering a second referendum on the terms of our exit.

[Niall_Quinn]

More importantly, is that the geezer from Prison Break?

Genuine question. Who here thinks that politicians have the final say on economic decisions? Your answer to that will dictate your whole outlook on Brexit. If you conclude that politician do, indeed, have authority then all the points being raised could theoretically have validity. If, on the other hand, you conclude (based on the insurmountable evidence and the historical record of who has been served and who has performed the servicing, for example the banking bailout) politicians are mere front men and have no authority then none of the points being raised are relevant.

My guess would be that people who vote assume the former, politicians have authority. I would guess some of those who don't vote are at least aware of the latter. And here's where the divide arises. Believers on both sides seem to have their own wants and needs prioritised. Not unreasonable I suppose, but lacking the understanding that their position will never be improved in the current economic model without there being a counterpart who suffers. So you have those who want to 'take their country back'. Unrealistic would be the kindest way to look at that desire. They believe immigrants have control whilst the non-believers will correctly conclude that immigration is a by-product that benefits the real controllers. Then you have those that want to see their pension protected, as if Brexit is linked in some manner. They can't tell you how it is linked, but they are very confident that by staying politically tied to Europe the bankers will for some reason take a less avaricious view. Again, unrealistic is the kindest view. Then there are 1,001 other wants and desires, all based on the assumption the economy turns on the proclamations from government and there is some form of equity and representation behind those proclamations.

For the historians and realists and other non-believers, naturally none of these side issues have significance. Instead the issue is about sovereignty. And the believers will pick up the wrong end of that stick too, equating the desire for sovereignty with racism. The truth is the opposite. Sovereignty is a mechanism by which the natural enemy of people can be contained and kept smaller. It is not the end goal it is a starting point, or in the case of Brexit it is holding the line to ensure representation and equality doesn't slip even further away.

Far from being marginalised and disenfranchised, it will be the young people who decide the outcome of a war that most don't even realise is being waged. The abject nonsense put around by the Remain group as they conflated a very small minority of younger voters into a disenfranchised class is a hint at the fears of the controlling class. In fact the majority of younger voters couldn't give a shit about Brexit and they made their point conspicuous through their absence. The comforting response to this is to suggest they are apathetic. Follow the logic if you will. Supposedly the youngsters have been robbed by the elderly, and yet the youngsters are too apathetic to vote. Therefore the result should be overturned to cater to the apathetic as they will have a longer period to be apathetic in comparison to the short period the elderly have to be engaged. As you can see, logic does not play a role in the arguments of the pro-European propagandists. And they absolutely will never talk about one other possibility because it terrifies them to even think about it.

Maybe more and more young people can see the reality.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37254371

Even as someone who is still an inconsolable remainer, this is just the epitome of daft

I'm sick of the racist small minded attitudes in the UK, so I'm going to a country where racist small minded prideful bigotry is institutional.
The poles come here because they are sick of some of the cunts they have to share a country with.

[Kano]

bye

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2016/09/06/david-davies-aiming-to-deliver-brexit-deal-that-disappoints-absolutely-everyone/

:lol: Think this is pretty much exactly how things will pan out.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-37254371

Even as someone who is still an inconsolable remainer, this is just the epitome of daft

I'm sick of the racist small minded attitudes in the UK, so I'm going to a country where racist small minded prideful bigotry is institutional.
The poles come here because they are sick of some of the cunts they have to share a country with.

I think he main worry about this article is how it found a place on the BBC at all. How much more trivial and irrelevant shit can they shovel at our expense? I wonder.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think he main worry about this article is how it found a place on the BBC at all. How much more trivial and irrelevant shit can they shovel at our expense? I wonder.

Well that's a by product of 24 hour rolling news, either everything is repeated dozens of times or irrelevant things become "human interest stories"

What i will say for the BBC news website is that you do find stories that whilst aren't relevant to the global situation are interesting to read, like an interview with a guy who worked in a town in Afghanistan as a Psychiatrist and many of his patients were Taleban fighters.

There wasn't an overriding narrative being pushed, it was just fascinating to read his anecdotes.

[selassie]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37300254

The EU are turning up the heat on May/UK Government to trigger/activate Article 50. May is obviously playing her cards close to her chest and rightly so, it's a mammoth task and needs to be carefully planned.

I suppose the groundwork for some of our single trade deals with some of the big players like the US & China will be getting discussed right now. I see Obama has been throwing his weight around doing his "bully boy" act but that will all get settled one way or another.

[Letters]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/world-leaders-openly-taking-the-piss-out-of-brexit-20160905113317

:lol:

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2016/09/12/david-cameron-begins-search-for-new-thing-to-fuck-up/

:d

[selassie]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/world-leaders-openly-taking-the-piss-out-of-brexit-20160905113317

:lol:

:haha:

[GP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-NEBerVRo0

:lol:

:(

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The reason Leave won is pretty much nailed on here

This guy is politically ignorant, that's not an insult it's just what it is. And if you are that way you will gravitate towards the campaign you think more positive, and a campaign that focused on change rather than status quo was always going to be more positive.

What James O Brien says is right, there is a shortage of electricians, and if you work for a power company you actually get a decent wage and if you start your own company you've got a good chance of being able to retire considerably earlier than you would do otherwise.

You do have to have a reasonable grasp of maths and science, and by reasonable more than the pointless nonsense you are taught at GCSE level.

And this contributes to people whether they leave at 16 or go into Uni doing non skilled office work because their academic education has no bearing in the real world.

[Letters]

Yeah, saw that video. What a car crash...

This is the trouble, a lot of people voted for stupid reasons and with no real idea what Brexit actually means (although now we have some clarity, it means Brexit, thanks Theresa!)

It's like complaining about your house which, admittedly has some problems, so you all agree you're going to move out but then you realise you've not actually got a new house to go to and no real plan how to find one.

It was a vote against something, not for anything.

[GP]

James O'Brien himself puts it quite well. It's a vote to punch yourself in the face.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not sure where this idea of having to vote FOR something to make a vote valid has sprung up from.

You'll soon run out of fingers and toes if you count the number of Labour voters who vote to get the Tories out - That's it. That's their WHOLE rationale. And vice versa. Then there are a million and one other reasons why people vote, or don't vote. That's another favourite of the complacent voting class, the idea that if you don't vote then you don't care.

Well a vote FOR anyone that has been placed in front of us for as many decades as I can remember is a vote for: Theft, war, inequality, injustice. And that's not an opinion, it's a fact.

If you voted for Blair then YOU are responsible for the millions of lives extinguished as a result and you can lie to yourself all you want but the facts don't change. If you voted for Cameron then YOU are responsible for all the dead Libyans and Syrians, YOU are responsible for the weakest members of society being targeted and robbed. Full stop. Carry on lying to yourself by all means.

And if you voted FOR May then... Oh now... wait a moment. An elephant has just pitched up. We have a PM that no fucker voted FOR and yet we queue up to criticise people who voted FOR their independence and AGAINST further unity with a European superstate.

[Letters]

I didn't say it wasn't a valid vote, it's just a bit depressing that people just voted against something without any actual idea of what they were voting for. At least if you vote against Trump, say, you know what you're getting instead. No-one had any idea what Brexit looked like, least of all Boris, and still doesn't.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not sure where this idea of having to vote FOR something to make a vote valid has sprung up from.

You'll soon run out of fingers and toes if you count the number of Labour voters who vote to get the Tories out - That's it. That's their WHOLE rationale. And vice versa. Then there are a million and one other reasons why people vote, or don't vote. That's another favourite of the complacent voting class, the idea that if you don't vote then you don't care.

Well a vote FOR anyone that has been placed in front of us for as many decades as I can remember is a vote for: Theft, war, inequality, injustice. And that's not an opinion, it's a fact.

If you voted for Blair then YOU are responsible for the millions of lives extinguished as a result and you can lie to yourself all you want but the facts don't change. If you voted for Cameron then YOU are responsible for all the dead Libyans and Syrians, YOU are responsible for the weakest members of society being targeted and robbed. Full stop. Carry on lying to yourself by all means.

And if you voted FOR May then... Oh now... wait a moment. An elephant has just pitched up. We have a PM that no fucker voted FOR and yet we queue up to criticise people who voted FOR their independence and AGAINST further unity with a European superstate.

It's not an invalid choice, but it's a bit like ordering Satay Chicken from a chinese takeaway rather than your usual chow mein even though you have a peanut allergy because it sounds better. It's just not an informed choice.

Given that your eligibility to vote rests on your age and being a citizen of the country in which you vote, no of course there is no actual expectation to make an informed choice.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I didn't say it wasn't a valid vote, it's just a bit depressing that people just voted against something without any actual idea of what they were voting for. At least if you vote against Trump, say, you know what you're getting instead. No-one had any idea what Brexit looked like, least of all Boris, and still doesn't.

To be fair on NQ, I would argue that there is nothing new in people not making informed choices when voting.

But actually i think what it is more telling, is that people do not articulate themselves well as to their rationale but the voting trends suggest that the way people vote is not random chaos.

Heavy trend towards people who voted Brexit towards a dislike for social liberalism, they feel that society is too permissive, should be more Christian, should be harsher punishments for crime - support for the death penalty and corporal punishment.

Basically when asked specific questions the impression they have is of a country without values, and that cultural dilution adds to this.

That and EU Law has a chaffing effect on British law and allows too much leniency on n'er do wells

[Letters]

I didn't say it was anything new either.

Oh, and obviously voting for a certain party does not make me responsible for anything that party does in power, unless that thing was in their manifesto.

[Coney]

I didn't say it was anything new either.

Oh, and obviously voting for a certain party does not make me responsible for anything that party does in power, unless that thing was in their manifesto.

How many people read the party manifestos? If you vote for a party then you DO have some responsibility for what they do. For instance, if you vote Tory and they then remove benefits from sick people even though that is not in the manifesto in so many words, given what the party represents in general, you could not wash your hands of it. Similarly if you vote for a Corbyn administration and after they win (yeah, ok) he prevents our troops from defending some people from a terrorist action, you are similarly responsible for us not acting to try and prevent it. (OK - shit example but you see what I mean).

(There are also the 'I didn't vote so none of this is my fault' brigade. Sorry, inaction is as much a decision as action. If you avoid making a choice, that is still a choice and if there are consequences, you can't complain.)

[Niall_Quinn]

How many people read the party manifestos? If you vote for a party then you DO have some responsibility for what they do. For instance, if you vote Tory and they then remove benefits from sick people even though that is not in the manifesto in so many words, given what the party represents in general, you could not wash your hands of it. Similarly if you vote for a Corbyn administration and after they win (yeah, ok) he prevents our troops from defending some people from a terrorist action, you are similarly responsible for us not acting to try and prevent it. (OK - shit example but you see what I mean).

(There are also the 'I didn't vote so none of this is my fault' brigade. Sorry, inaction is as much a decision as action. If you avoid making a choice, that is still a choice and if there are consequences, you can't complain.)

Agree that a non-vote does not represent absolution. But it does at least withhold endorsement and surely that's the very least decent people can do? But the idea you can't complain because you do or don't get involved in an election process is obviously flawed. Anyone can complain about anything whenever they wish. The only useful measure of those complaints is the effect they have. Those committed to confronting the injustices of the state cannot be legitimately discounted simply because they refused to endorse the state. More importantly, those who endorsed the state have a duty to complain considering the state's vast abuses which were surely never part of the contract agreed upon? Their mistake is believing complaints are only legitimate when framed within the electoral process. How convenient for those breaking the contract.

[Globalgunner]

Following the High court decision, (Govt May appeal, see what i did there?). They will no doubt lose IMO. What happens next?. Will they allow MPs a free vote or allow a free debate. Moreover what will be the question put to MP`s. To Brexit or not to Brexit? or will it be simply a question of timing. Im pretty sure if they allowed a free vote on whether to trigger A-50 or not the answer will likely be no. Im sure I read it somewhere that parliament is not necessarily bound by the results of any referendum.

[Niall_Quinn]

Following the High court decision, (Govt May appeal, see what i did there?). They will no doubt lose IMO. What happens next?. Will they allow MPs a free vote or allow a free debate. Moreover what will be the question put to MP`s. To Brexit or not to Brexit? or will it be simply a question of timing. Im pretty sure if they allowed a free vote on whether to trigger A-50 or not the answer will likely be no. Im sure I read it somewhere that parliament is not necessarily bound by the results of any referendum.

They aren't bound by their election pledges so I can't see a problem with them ignoring the decision of the electorate in a referendum. It's only the pretence of democracy that must be maintained and I feel they can do that if they choose their words carefully.

[GP]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/brexit-vote-deserves-same-respect-boaty-mcboatface

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/11/brexit-vote-deserves-same-respect-boaty-mcboatface

These cunts will take their votes every 5 years and claim legitimacy on the back of them. Apparently the will of the uninformed, unwashed plebs is valid in this respect. But when the wrong answer comes back from a referendum then the voice of the people is to be mocked as uninformed, petty, bigoted. Well if the people are so dumb and can't be trusted, why don't all the cunt politicians resign? Surely they can't hold legitimate office if racist idiots put them there?

[Goonermerree]

These cunts will take their votes every 5 years and claim legitimacy on the back of them. Apparently the will of the uninformed, unwashed plebs is valid in this respect. But when the wrong answer comes back from a referendum then the voice of the people is to be mocked as uninformed, petty, bigoted. Well if the people are so dumb and can't be trusted, why don't all the cunt politicians resign? Surely they can't hold legitimate office if racist idiots put them there?

:gp:

[Kano]

Following the High court decision, (Govt May appeal, see what i did there?). They will no doubt lose IMO. What happens next?. Will they allow MPs a free vote or allow a free debate. Moreover what will be the question put to MP`s. To Brexit or not to Brexit? or will it be simply a question of timing. Im pretty sure if they allowed a free vote on whether to trigger A-50 or not the answer will likely be no. Im sure I read it somewhere that parliament is not necessarily bound by the results of any referendum.
Then the even older cunts in HoL can still reject the bill, whichever way it goes and then the real fun begins. Hopefully that happens and absolute chaoes ensues.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why on earth would you want chaos?

A bit of dull stability would be nice for a change after the last year or so

[Niall_Quinn]

Chaos is what we have now. Endless wars, financial mayhem, cultural battle lines. And all by design. Extreme wealth is the byproduct of chaos. If we had genuine representatives, a genuine justice system, a functional education system and a legitimate media then we'd have law, order, peace and stability. Equal opportunity is the byproduct of a just and stable society.

The game now is obvious. Make the conditions in Britain intolerable (in the media at least) so we'll run back to the embrace of Europe. I'm looking forward to seeing how dramatic May can be playing the outraged patriot.

I think the establishment may have underestimated the resolve of a significant segment of the population who understand the issues and won't put up with this globalist nonsense any longer.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes of course, any attempt at oversight and transparency in the process has to be looked at as an attempt to overhaul the will of the people.

It seems a massive over reaction to the government being ignorant about the extent of their power to implement Brexit.

But again the law like with everything else, only functions to certain people when it can be interpreted in a way they want it to be.

Crying we aren't going to get Brexit seems like an emotional reaction, you mention the media but for one thing it's made too big a deal of it not to happen. Britain is going to leave the EU, the referendum vote itself has made MPs too aware of their constituents for it not to happen.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not sure I'm crying about anything. We can all pretend to suddenly value the machinery of the state if we want to. And we can pretend the intent behind the referendum was something other than what it was clearly expressed as. There is no ambiguity here. But we can pretend there is. Makes no odds to me. I love the state as much as I love the superstate which, coincidentally, is as much as I love being anally savaged by a rabies infested German Shepherd.

[Letters]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/being-reasonable-is-for-total-fking-dickheads-agrees-britain-20161104116557

:lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not sure I'm crying about anything. We can all pretend to suddenly value the machinery of the state if we want to. And we can pretend the intent behind the referendum was something other than what it was clearly expressed as. There is no ambiguity here. But we can pretend there is. Makes no odds to me. I love the state as much as I love the superstate which, coincidentally, is as much as I love being anally savaged by a rabies infested German Shepherd.

I meant the reaction in general rather than you specifically

No there was no ambiguity on the referendum, but there was plenty of ambiguity over what was to happen next and the leave campaign could not provide a singular, coherent answer.

[Xhaka Can’t]

We all think we are reasonable.

Except NQ.

Even he agrees he's a fucknugget.

[Goonermerree]

This is High Court injunction has posed a bit of a conundrum. In one way it's right that Parliament has a say, but, everyone is forgetting that Europe will have the last say in our exit terms anyway. Corbyn has said that he and Labour MPs will only back the exit if there will still be access to the single market, if that remains, nothing will change.

This could go on for ages and will weaken our situation on the world stage. Other countries were coming forward to do trade with us, they will back off with the uncertainty that this has caused.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This is High Court injunction has posed a bit of a conundrum. In one way it's right that Parliament has a say, but, everyone is forgetting that Europe will have the last say in our exit terms anyway. Corbyn has said that he and Labour MPs will only back the exit if there will still be access to the single market, if that remains, nothing will change.

This could go on for ages and will weaken our situation on the world stage. Other countries were coming forward to do trade with us, they will back off with the uncertainty that this has caused.

Not really, I'm fairly sure we can negotiate trade unilaterally whether we are in the EU or not.

The difference is we will be making up a trade deficit where arguably we have been too dependent on the European bloc to begin with and these deals take time.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is High Court injunction has posed a bit of a conundrum. In one way it's right that Parliament has a say, but, everyone is forgetting that Europe will have the last say in our exit terms anyway. Corbyn has said that he and Labour MPs will only back the exit if there will still be access to the single market, if that remains, nothing will change.

This could go on for ages and will weaken our situation on the world stage. Other countries were coming forward to do trade with us, they will back off with the uncertainty that this has caused.

This is all just a repetition of what we have seen before when nations say no to Europe. Accept the decision publicly and then privately engineer a revote. It's all there in the historical record. The British people have a choice between now and the inevitable revote. Either swallow all the bullshit that is about to be flushed on us by dishonest and compromised MPs and their puppet masters, or go away and actually learn something about the history of this European project, who is behind it and what its purpose is. This EU does not take no for an answer and in order to preserve its miserable existence and the captive status of many other member states they cannot allow the UK to say no. The truth of this is we have around 200 million people who are quite happy to be herded and dictated to and 200 million who want nothing to do with it. That is unsustainable. Only very bad things can happen if the life support machine attached to this project is not switched off. Again, history is our guide, or should be.

[Goonermerree]

This is all just a repetition of what we have seen before when nations say no to Europe. Accept the decision publicly and then privately engineer a revote. It's all there in the historical record. The British people have a choice between now and the inevitable revote. Either swallow all the bullshit that is about to be flushed on us by dishonest and compromised MPs and their puppet masters, or go away and actually learn something about the history of this European project, who is behind it and what its purpose is. This EU does not take no for an answer and in order to preserve its miserable existence and the captive status of many other member states they cannot allow the UK to say no. The truth of this is we have around 200 million people who are quite happy to be herded and dictated to and 200 million who want nothing to do with it. That is unsustainable. Only very bad things can happen if the life support machine attached to this project is not switched off. Again, history is our guide, or should be.

Yeah, like with the Irish and the Lisbon Treaty, keep voting until you get the right answer.