Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

[GP]

https://i.imgur.com/cRoRNEy.png

[fakeyank]

I would absolutely love it if we re-sign Flamini as back up. It would be a troll of trolls! :haha:

[Marc Overmars]

Stranger Things. :bow:

[Power n Glory]

It's not about Wenger, neither is it about not trusting a managers judgement. It's about not dumping everything in the managers lap and the manager making a decision whether a player deserves a contract extension and being able to trust people to handle it for him (the way David Dein did at Arsenal). If the club decides it cannot or will not pay the player the wages he is demanding that is a matter for the club because it's the club and not the manager paying those wages, if it's a matter of in the case of Gotze that you cited being drawn to interest from a bigger club, a manager will obviously sit down with that player to persuade him to stay but that's not the same as contract negotiations.
And you say I don't see the problem with the manager having the final say? He is having the final say he has made the decision as to whether that player deserves another contract or not, and he's left the details in the hands of other people.

It's not always as simple as that, same with list of players a manager wants to buy...that player may not be affordable for the club but then it's for the manager to provide alternative names, and then say I want that player. And then leaving it to others to iron out the details, as with the above examples it's about being able to delegate. Half the problem starts because Wenger cannot delegate, but he's still an employee at the end of the day and if he himself is a barrier to transfers getting done the board if they cared would say "no Arsene leave it with us, we will get it done".
Wenger isn't a confrontational figure, he might not be happy about it but would accept it.

You make it sound as if Wenger is a one man band. This is getting long winded.

This is worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9782420/Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wenger-defends-his-socialist-wage-plan.html


Wenger said that his principle was “to pay something that makes sense and is defendable in front of every single player” adding: “We make exceptions sometimes but they are not maybe so high. If you want to keep making profit you have to respect that.”



Asked whether he set the wage structure at Arsenal, which has been criticised for having a too narrow band compared to other clubs, Wenger said: “Yes. I don’t know how it works at others. But it’s not only me, it’s in co-operation with the board. When we want to go 'far’ I ask for the authorisation of the board.”


However, it is understood that Wenger, once he is given a budget, sets the pay bands with the board deferring to his judgment. “We have no players on £200,000 a week and I think other clubs will come down to us with financial fair play,” he said. “We have a more socialist model.”

This is Wenger speaking on Arshavin before we signed him.

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-our-wage-structure-will-not-be-broke


“The players who come in here are all on our wage structure or they do not come in,” he said. “It’s as simple as that. Nobody will come in above the highest level we have here."

We ended up signing Arshavin of course. Gazidis put pressure on Wenger to sign him by why is the pressure coming from Gazidis? Wenger has said he can ask the Board to authorise a deal that breaks the wage structure but he's reluctant to do so on most occasions. There isn't much wrong with the system it's the manager that's a problem. Not getting rid of him is the real structural problem.

[Power n Glory]

Leicester will be nowhere this season and they got Vardy and more importantly Mahrez signed up. Impressive tbf.

It shouldn't be that hard but it seems like the most difficult thing in the world for us.

[Kano]

According to Sky earlier it comes wit no buy out clauses.

I'm never convinced that the media get all of this informs unless it is explicitly revealed. A few weeks ago when this Mahrez bollocks all started, we were being told he had a low buy out clause, which then suddenly disappeared a fee twice the size. Keep turning the wheel with enough bullshit and most people forget what was said the day before.

[fakeyank]

Leicester will be nowhere this season and they got Vardy and more importantly Mahrez signed up. Impressive tbf.

We are not going to be anywhere this season either. We havent been anywhere in the last decade tbf.. I think I'd rather be nowhere with someone like Ranieri around, rather than the shriveled up dinosaur we have.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You make it sound as if Wenger is a one man band. This is getting long winded.

This is worth a read.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/9782420/Arsenal-manager-Arsene-Wenger-defends-his-socialist-wage-plan.html



”



This is Wenger speaking on Arshavin before we signed him.

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-our-wage-structure-will-not-be-broke



We ended up signing Arshavin of course. Gazidis put pressure on Wenger to sign him by why is the pressure coming from Gazidis? Wenger has said he can ask the Board to authorise a deal that breaks the wage structure but he's reluctant to do so on most occasions. There isn't much wrong with the system it's the manager that's a problem. Not getting rid of him is the real structural problem.

I'm sorry I don't agree, I don't believe the structure is correct....not at all.

In fact the real reason Wenger is preoccupied with wage structure is ensuring no player is paid higher than him (which whilst I agree no player should earn more than the msnsger) does not justify what I see as micromanaging. A manager can state if he wants to sign a player or extend his contract and give an indication of how much he values that player and after that it should be that the club take responsibility. Wenger takes that responsibility because he is a control freak, and the board have exacerbated it by allowing him to consolidate his authority, and I don't trust a board like that to do what's right in the event of Wenger going.

[Power n Glory]

I'm sorry I don't agree, I don't believe the structure is correct....not at all.

In fact the real reason Wenger is preoccupied with wage structure is ensuring no player is paid higher than him (which whilst I agree no player should earn more than the msnsger) does not justify what I see as micromanaging. A manager can state if he wants to sign a player or extend his contract and give an indication of how much he values that player and after that it should be that the club take responsibility. Wenger takes that responsibility because he is a control freak, and the board have exacerbated it by allowing him to consolidate his authority, and I don't trust a board like that to do what's right in the event of Wenger going.

:lol: This is really going nowhere.

You only have to look to Ferguson at Utd at how this should work. He was directly involved with the RVP negotiations as well and didn't screw it up.

That last part makes no sense either because you were saying control should be taken away from the next manager and left with the Board. Never mind.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Not so fussed about the one season wonder, but keeping Mahrez is impressive I agree.

Why is it impressive? Who's bid for him?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol: This is really going nowhere.

You only have to look to Ferguson at Utd at how this should work. He was directly involved with the RVP negotiations as well and didn't screw it up.

That last part makes no sense either because you were saying control should be taken away from the next manager and left with the Board. Never mind.

There's nothing not to understand. Wenger has unprecedented authority at the club far in excess of anything Ferguson had at United, this doesn't seem to bother you but it is a problem.
Every point I have made is that whilst a manager still makes most of the big decisions (apart from what price the club should pay another in transfer fees) that the smaller decisions that result from those big decisions can and should be delegated to others and the club I don't believe is being assertive enough to facilitate this.
A manager should be almost totally focused on training and match tactics, the club should remove the burden from him wherever possible for anything else.
Trying to suggest that if another manager had the same unprecedented control that Wenger has is unproblematic and wouldn't be equally undesirable with a new man is as far as I'm concerned overlooking the key problems the club faces.
Wenger tries to do everything and succeeds in doing nothing, yes he's got massive shortcomings which are more evident as he's getting older and he should have gone by now.
As I stated in an earlier post, I would like to see a transfer negotiation team and a contract negotiation team that whilst liases with the manager is at the same time autonomous from the manager and directly report to someone like Gazidis.

The manager still decides what players he wants, and he decides what players he wants to keep and which ones he lets go. But no more managers acting with transfer funds like company delegates do a hotel room mini bar (worried about charging the toblerone to the company bill) and no more socialist wage structure. Why would we assume that managers know what they are talking about in terms of financial value, their job would be to value the player in terms of overall quality and potential and let other people extrapolate a figure from that.

But I agree let's draw a line under it now, you think the next manager should be given total free reign and I think that would be a total disaster that would lead to another Wenger type situation.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

The inner snob musings were more entertaining. Can we just get back to transfer targets that aren't going to happen now....

[Power n Glory]

That's because Ferguson delegated and wasn't a control freak. We don't have an unworkable system here. The freedom and trust Wenger had in 96 is what has lead us to building a new stadium, facilities, changing the culture and at the time it was innovative and revolutionary. The problem we have at the club now at the club is that the manager is stale and run out of ideas. He's still running on 1996 software.

If we remain flexible and open to new ideas, a new coach can make such changes so he's not micro managing everything. This is the overall point and why I keep pointing out the difference between Wenger and Fergie.

Also, you still think Wenger is the only one negotiating transfers and contracts. There has to be a team in place already. Do you think he does the scouting on how own as well?

[Power n Glory]

The inner snob musings were more entertaining. Can we just get back to transfer targets that aren't going to happen now....

Some people have a problem with media speculation being discussed. Can't win.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's because Ferguson delegated and wasn't a control freak. We don't have an unworkable system here. The freedom and trust Wenger had in 96 is what has lead us to building a new stadium, facilities, changing the culture and at the time it was innovative and revolutionary. The problem we have at the club now at the club is that the manager is stale and run out of ideas. He's still running on 1996 software.

If we remain flexible and open to new ideas, a new coach can make such changes so he's not micro managing everything. This is the overall point and why I keep pointing out the difference between Wenger and Fergie.

Also, you still think Wenger is the only one negotiating transfers and contracts. There has to be a team in place already. Do you think he does the scouting on how own as well?

Again I am not saying the manager shouldn't be given freedom, I am just talking about him operating in a structured environment, he has clear objectives from above in terms of minimum expectation, when it comes to players and contracts he knows the club will iron out the details.
That structure has not existed at Arsenal since David Dein left the club, Wenger controls and micromanages every detail and whilst that is as much an indicator of his personality....the club have allowed it to come to that.

And I'm sorry to point this out again, Wengers authority and responsibilities at the club are unprecedented and far exceed that of Ferguson, that's because many aspects of David Deins role which you would expect to be undertaken by Gazidis is undertaken by Wenger. So as I say mentioning Ferguson has no relevance to this.

[Gooner23]

Not landing Mahrez is a huge blow. We either tried and failed, or were never actually in for him in the first place. Either way it adds to our shambles of a summer.

I understand there isn't a wealth of striking options out there to choose from, but surely one of Mkhitaryan, Mahrez or Draxler should have been quite feasible? Any one of those would significantly improve our starting line up.

I'm not surprised with how the summer is panning out as we have seen it time and time again, but you do wonder what the club is playing at. They must know the fan unrest is at an all time high?

[Globalgunner]

Why are people always so shocked by the obvious. I imagine Draxler for instance, would have consulted Ozil about coming. what do you think his advice would be?

[Power n Glory]

Again I am not saying the manager shouldn't be given freedom, I am just talking about him operating in a structured environment, he has clear objectives from above in terms of minimum expectation, when it comes to players and contracts he knows the club will iron out the details.
That structure has not existed at Arsenal since David Dein left the club, Wenger controls and micromanages every detail and whilst that is as much an indicator of his personality....the club have allowed it to come to that.

And I'm sorry to point this out again, Wengers authority and responsibilities at the club are unprecedented and far exceed that of Ferguson, that's because many aspects of David Deins role which you would expect to be undertaken by Gazidis is undertaken by Wenger. So as I say mentioning Ferguson has no relevance to this.

I mention Ferguson because it's a comparison of personalities. You rightly say Wenger's micromanagement is part of his personality. Fergie delegates. That says something about his personality. It's relevant. A manager that isn't as obsessive as Wenger would delegate and be more decisive with decisions. They wouldn't take on more than they could handle.

The structure of the club has changed since Dein. Ivan Gazidis has come in along with Dick Law who handles the negotiations. The problem we have is Wenger having the final say. I can't see many other clubs not consulting the manager on player issues. That often leads to trouble. We've seen it fail at Spurs, Newcastle, Liverpool etc. What we have here is far from perfect but most of people that have come in are having to work with a manager that has had his own way for a long time. The biggest problem we have is the lack of backbone. Somebody should have given Wenger his marching orders. Set down the bare minimum. I think we have seen windows where it looks like Wenger has been pressured to sign players. But it shouldn't be a struggle every window to convince a ma her to pull his finger out. I wouldn't want the structure to change to make it more difficult for a new manager to work but I'd definitely want to see stricter targets.

[Power n Glory]

Why are people always so shocked by the obvious. I imagine Draxler for instance, would have consulted Ozil about coming. what do you think his advice would be?

I can't imagine Ozil telling him to avoid us. It's just a case of whether a bid was made for the player. I highly doubt it. We're banking on internal solutions again.

[Gooner23]

Why are people always so shocked by the obvious. I imagine Draxler for instance, would have consulted Ozil about coming. what do you think his advice would be?

Definitely not shocked, or even that surprised.

[Kano]

Why are people always so shocked by the obvious. I imagine Draxler for instance, would have consulted Ozil about coming. what do you think his advice would be?

Brush up on your CB skills and see you in a few weeks.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Some people have a problem with media speculation being discussed. Can't win.

Thank-you for not discussing the outside world.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why are people always so shocked by the obvious. I imagine Draxler for instance, would have consulted Ozil about coming. what do you think his advice would be?

"Never go ass to mouth".

[Power n Glory]

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/rsroleplay/images/8/8d/Never-Go-Full-Retard.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150224075119
"Never go ass to mouth".

[Özim]

Why are people always so shocked by the obvious. I imagine Draxler for instance, would have consulted Ozil about coming. what do you think his advice would be?

Don't believe a word they say to you, it's all BS.

[Özim]

Arsene Wenger news conference

"Fans today are better informed, have stronger opinions. It's more difficult but you still have to be strong enough to do the things you feel are right.

"I focus on my job and do exactly 100% what I think is right. I think I have shown in 20 years that it does not work too badly. There are 55 games in a season and if after one game we cannot play good football then we cannot do our job. You have to bounce back. It makes perhaps more of an echo with [losing] the first game but it's still only one game."

Wenger is asked about Leicester striker Jamie Vardy - who turned down a move to Arsenal this summer. Did Vardy give a reason why?

"Erm, no... You have to respect people's decisions. That is part of it.

"On the whole transfer market there is very little happening because of the availability of players. You can play huge amounts of money for average players - there are plenty of those - but to find the ones who will strengthen your squad, that is more difficult.

More from Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger on transfers. Measured, thoughtful, cautious.

"We are not scared to spend money but to buy in itself is not a quality - to buy good players is. This club has been built on that.

"The transfer policy we have had here has helped build the club. I know we haven't done as much as many people but we are out there. I have made 400 transfers in my life and I know every one has a rhythm that you are not the only one to decide on.

"It's better for me not to speak about any player. But I would like to reassure you that we are not afraid to spend the money we have and we are working very hard."

He's made 400 transfers and 20,000 substitutions in his life and everyone has a rythm :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I mention Ferguson because it's a comparison of personalities. You rightly say Wenger's micromanagement is part of his personality. Fergie delegates. That says something about his personality. It's relevant. A manager that isn't as obsessive as Wenger would delegate and be more decisive with decisions. They wouldn't take on more than they could handle.

The structure of the club has changed since Dein. Ivan Gazidis has come in along with Dick Law who handles the negotiations. The problem we have is Wenger having the final say. I can't see many other clubs not consulting the manager on player issues. That often leads to trouble. We've seen it fail at Spurs, Newcastle, Liverpool etc. What we have here is far from perfect but most of people that have come in are having to work with a manager that has had his own way for a long time. The biggest problem we have is the lack of backbone. Somebody should have given Wenger his marching orders. Set down the bare minimum. I think we have seen windows where it looks like Wenger has been pressured to sign players. But it shouldn't be a struggle every window to convince a ma her to pull his finger out. I wouldn't want the structure to change to make it more difficult for a new manager to work but I'd definitely want to see stricter targets.

First off I never said the club wouldn't consult the manager on player decisions, it's about doing as much as possible to unburden the manager of the nitty gritty of the details when it isn't their number one priority. Saying Wenger has taken it upon himself is a cop out, if they were unhappy with that arrangement they should have been more assertive so it suggests they are either happy to do sod all or they don't have the balls to reign Wenger in....either way that doesn't give you confidence that the same thing wouldn't happen with another manager.
I'm hoping that I'm wrong and Gazidis has more control over a new guy than he does with Wenger, the ability to overrule him when it proves necessary etc which he does not have at the moment.
You hear it in everything we read, Wenger calls the shots....and it's not good because it's Wenger. I also just think it wouldn't be good whoever it was. Everyone has their place in the hierarchy and the managers employers should always be above him.

[Chippy]

Not landing Mahrez is a huge blow. We either tried and failed, or were never actually in for him in the first place. Either way it adds to our shambles of a summer.

I understand there isn't a wealth of striking options out there to choose from, but surely one of Mkhitaryan, Mahrez or Draxler should have been quite feasible? Any one of those would significantly improve our starting line up.

I'm not surprised with how the summer is panning out as we have seen it time and time again, but you do wonder what the club is playing at. They must know the fan unrest is at an all time high?

Do they? They can only see 60,000 people are willing to pay through the nose every other week and the majority sing Arsene Wenger's name.

[Power n Glory]

First off I never said the club wouldn't consult the manager on player decisions, it's about doing as much as possible to unburden the manager of the nitty gritty of the details when it isn't their number one priority. Saying Wenger has taken it upon himself is a cop out, if they were unhappy with that arrangement they should have been more assertive so it suggests they are either happy to do sod all or they don't have the balls to reign Wenger in....either way that doesn't give you confidence that the same thing wouldn't happen with another manager.
I'm hoping that I'm wrong and Gazidis has more control over a new guy than he does with Wenger, the ability to overrule him when it proves necessary etc which he does not have at the moment.
You hear it in everything we read, Wenger calls the shots....and it's not good because it's Wenger. I also just think it wouldn't be good whoever it was. Everyone has their place in the hierarchy and the managers employers should always be above him.


“I work every day with Ivan, believe me he is highly motivated to bring players in,” said Wenger ahead of tonight’s friendly with Chivas de Guadalajara.

“Sometimes I have to calm him down. I believe as well this is a period where everybody wants to dream, and transfers bring dreams.

We brought in Gazidis and Dick Law to handle transfers and negotiations but they still have to consult with Wenger. Is that not an attempt to ease the burden or at least a change in structure? The above quote could be an example of the everyday struggle we have with Wenger and I'll refer you back to Arshavin transfer or even the year we panic bought Arteta, Merts and co on the deadline day of the window. Wenger distanced himself from having much to do with that last day panic for some reason. Maybe he didn't agree with some of the purchases and why we ended up with dross like Park and Santos....I don't know. But if that were the case and he wasn’t consulted, it’s why I want the manager to have some input on who we buy. I wouldn’t want a Spurs situation where they blow nearly £100m on players the manager didn’t ask for and when it doesn’t work the manager gets the sack.

Knowing Wenger’s stubborn nature, do you think he’s easy to work with? Do you think it’s an easy task for Ivan and Dick to tell Wenger to do something he’s against? This isn’t a cop out when I say Wenger takes on more than he should. It’s his character and you’ve said this yourself. We don’t know how assertive the staff around Wenger have had to be to push deals through. I have my suspicions. A few I’ve mentioned already, but think back to when Gazidis publically laid out the expectations with our new financial power and the pressure was on Wenger. I think that was the turning point and where the spotlight was firmly set on Wenger. We ended up signing Ozil and I also remember the backlash when he was considering going into the season with Sanogo when Giroud was injured. Could he have been pressured into signing Welbeck by Ivan? Maybe.

Change is certainly needed. We’re still working towards being up there with clubs like Bayern. It will take time for that to happen. Maybe if we had more footballing brains at Board level, we’d see a shift and Wenger booted. But partly why I argue for the manager to be the stimulus for change is because it’s how we’re the club we are today. We brought in Wenger in 1996 and the culture changed. I don’t think it’s impossible for that to happen again. I don’t think we’re that broken internally that we’re totally stuffed. I’d be more worried if we had the sort of set up we’ve seen at Spurs and Liverpool and we had Board members that always seem to think they know more than the manager. That’s a dangerous set up. Madrid have that as well but they’re funded by government money so they can afford to break and rebuild teams and bring in a new manager every 3 years. We’re not at that level. I’d prefer the Board to stay open and flexible and not develop the sort of stubborn streak we now see in our manager where they’re so arrogant that can’t learn anything new.

Ok that’s my stance on the matter. Good debate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I do wonder if you seem to think I'm arguing from a position that Wenger shouldn't be relieved of his position, I am just not going to lie and pretend I think things will be markedly better with a new manager. The culture at the club largely created by Wenger has been unchecked by those in the top echelons, trying to suggest they are powerless to do anything about Wenger is outrageous....and it plays into my belief that as bad as he is, he has been an all too convenient lightning rod for a do nothing club that simply does not care about any football aspect of Arsenal FC.
That doesn't give me confidence that a) we can attract the cream of football management or b) we can get the best out of any manager we are able to bring in.
I'd love to think I'm wrong, but the evidence is on one hand the board are unfailingly positive about Wenger and the job he is doing but on the other hand are keen to brief against him in the media. It doesn't speak highly of Wenger that he's prepared to stay in this environment - which speaks to his control freakery. I simply don't think another manager would put up with it, and what I think we possibly might see is a state of flux where managers last no longer than a season or so because they aren't getting the proper support from their employers. Whilst I don't want another manager here for 20 years, as most managers get stale and Ferguson is an outlier to this....I think we arguably want an average shelf life of a manager to be five years.

[Power n Glory]

I do wonder if you seem to think I'm arguing from a position that Wenger shouldn't be relieved of his position, I am just not going to lie and pretend I think things will be markedly better with a new manager.

That's a worry because you shouldn't assume that. When we start lumping posters into certain camps a lot gets missed. I'm not playing devils advocate. I hate that. Heck - check my posts to NQ in this thread about the club structure. I'm saying the exact same thing to him and there is no doubt about where he stands on Wenger.

I don't think we run a bad operation. Some elements are good and some are bad. I think we have a great environment for a new coach with great ideas to flourish. It's the sort of environment that produced Wenger. He had freedom. But that's also the bad side. It's produced Wenger. :lol: It was great for when he was in his prime and he's taken us far. But he can't take us any further and my main criticism of the Board is how it's been handled along with ridiculous ticket prices.

Not many people in football think we run a bad operation. I don't think we do either.

[AFC Leveller]

https://www.facebook.com/FootballFightsAndBIGHits/videos/1048015518579670/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's a worry because you shouldn't assume that. When we start lumping posters into certain camps a lot gets missed. I'm not playing devils advocate. I hate that. Heck - check my posts to NQ in this thread about the club structure. I'm saying the exact same thing to him and there is no doubt about where he stands on Wenger.

I don't think we run a bad operation. Some elements are good and some are bad. I think we have a great environment for a new coach with great ideas to flourish. It's the sort of environment that produced Wenger. He had freedom. But that's also the bad side. It's produced Wenger. :lol: It was great for when he was in his prime and he's taken us far. But he can't take us any further and my main criticism of the Board is how it's been handled along with ridiculous ticket prices.

Not many people in football think we run a bad operation. I don't think we do either.

I think in terms of operation it depends what you mean, financially i think our operation is amazing....from a footballing perspective i think it's shocking.

And it goes beyond Wenger, the youth academy for instance has been neglected for years and this is why many of our youngsters are usually bought for a premium from other clubs rather than being developed by scratch by us.

Peter Wood from Le Grove seems to hold Gazidis in high esteem and believes that his hands are tied as long as Wenger is at the club, i hope he's right because i think there appears to be a total lack of disconnect between the board and footballing aspects of the club and if Gazidis can bridge that gap than i hope he's given every opportunity so to do.

[Power n Glory]

I think in terms of operation it depends what you mean, financially i think our operation is amazing....from a footballing perspective i think it's shocking.

And it goes beyond Wenger, the youth academy for instance has been neglected for years and this is why many of our youngsters are usually bought for a premium from other clubs rather than being developed by scratch by us.

Peter Wood from Le Grove seems to hold Gazidis in high esteem and believes that his hands are tied as long as Wenger is at the club, i hope he's right because i think there appears to be a total lack of disconnect between the board and footballing aspects of the club and if Gazidis can bridge that gap than i hope he's given every opportunity so to do.

I’ll give Ivan credit where it’s due because I think he’s been more open with the fans than anyone else has at the club. Wenger is Wenger. PHW showed nothing but disdain for the fans, Stan stays silent…..I know more about the inner workings of the club because of Gazidis. It was Ivan that appointed new youth academy coaches weren’t producing anything. He shook that system up. The new fitness coach was Ivan also. I like how we’re bring back old players to coach the team. That should have been done a long time ago. I think Wenger has resisted change in that area and it seems as though he got his way with Henry not being part of the coaching set up for petty and trivial reasons imo. That’s the sort of thing that bothers me. Jonker wanted Henry in the set up but Wenger rules against it and there was no compromise. As said before, we need more guys that know football at Arsenal. The infrastructure is changing now that we have the sponsorship deals in place.

[IBK]

I think it still remains subjective because of how you measure success. Most of us fans refer to winning trophies as the only true sign of success at a club like Arsenal, whereas it seems to be that Wenger doesn't see that as the entire, 100% end game of what he is trying to achieve season-on-season. If he refuses to pay market rates to buy players, from his point of view, he would say he is working in the best interests of the club and doing the best job financially. Whether we believe he should or shouldn't be isn't the point. But what he views as best set of methods to reach a successful level. You would assume given we are going round in circles that he is happy with his approach and sees no reason to change them. It's all subjective thinking ultimately, which is why you have fans still arguing for and against him staying at the club. Whether we agree with that or not is down to us. I agree about the transfer failings, squad management etc but clearly he believes fully in his approach and what some of us may call a mistake, he'll disagree entirely.

I understand that, and it is obvious that Wenger believes messianistically in his approach. But his belief that he is doing the best for the Club does not equate either to the question of whether he is doing his best for the club. Footballing success for Arsenal FC is not a subjective issue. It is an objective one. Success is winning trophies. This is not necessarily the case for all clubs who have little realistic hope of doing so - and I will accept that for these clubs the bar is lower, but the test even for these clubs remains an objective one - have they done as well as they can do with the resources at their disposal? When it comes to Arsenal, it is fair to expect a club with our resources to be competing for titles with the best clubs - both at home and in Europe. Doing the best job financially should not be in a manager's remit, and I do not accept that a manager 'doing his best' financially is a manager doing his best for our club.

We all accepted this idea during the stadium project period - because we thought that the caution in the transfer market was the means to ensure that we would compete with the best at a future stage. But recent times have shown this to be a fallacy. As a club we have become bound to a philosophy that is risk averse; uncompetitive and lacking in ambition. The manager is an integral part of this flawed approach - and it being taken with his eyes firmly open.

[Ralpheroo72]

We are a cash machine for Stan, until that changes, we have no vision and we are not a football club. Arsenal as we know it is gone.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3746706/Arsene-Wenger-vows-Serge-Gnabry-Arsenal-long-time-Olympics-form-Germany.html

Serge up for a new contract. Has anyone been watching him Rio? Heard he's been on fire.

[Power n Glory]

We are a cash machine for Stan, until that changes, we have no vision and we are not a football club. Arsenal as we know it is gone.


How different is Stan to previous owners or owners at other clubs?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

How different is Stan to previous owners or owners at other clubs?

We haven't had "Owners" previously, Arsenal has always been a public limited company......and whilst it technically still is now, anyone who owns over 50% of shares is de-facto the owner.

Although Hill Wood was aloof, his father was chairman and his father before him and even though he was an old Tory fart i think he did care about it being a football club rather than part of a profit making portfolio.

He had a personal relationship with the players including Tony Adams

[Power n Glory]

We haven't had "Owners" previously, Arsenal has always been a public limited company......and whilst it technically still is now, anyone who owns over 50% of shares is de-facto the owner.

Although Hill Wood was aloof, his father was chairman and his father before him and even though he was an old Tory fart i think he did care about it being a football club rather than part of a profit making portfolio.

He had a personal relationship with the players including Tony Adams

The previous 'owners' sold their shares though. You could argue they treated this club like a cash machine also.

Trying to stay objective, we could have had it a lot worse. Was just reading up on Liverpool's former owners, Hicks and Gillett. Liverpool were close to going into administration. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

WUMger bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37115355

Meh, of course European clubs are going to want a slice of it. Most of them are not fortunate enough to have TV companies inject money into their leagues.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It could always be worse, but there is no doubt our financial stability comes despite Kroenkes ownership and not because of it.

No one is saying running a profitable enterprise should not be Kroenkes first concern, but when it comes to the point that it's detrimental to what Arsenals primary function is "a football club" and then it's a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also not one of those people who wants Usmanov getting more involved. In fact there are strong indicators that he will sell his shares, and I'm quite glad about that.

[Letters]

WUMger bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37115355

Meh, of course European clubs are going to want a slice of it. Most of them are not fortunate enough to have TV companies inject money into their leagues.

Do you work for The Sun? :blink:
You have to dig pretty deep to get Wenger "bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs." out of that article.

[AFC Leveller]

Every time Wenger opens his mouth these days he is talking about finances or other clubs! the guy should be concerned about signing a CB and a striker and making sure we are ready to challenge properly.

[Power n Glory]

It could always be worse, but there is no doubt our financial stability comes despite Kroenkes ownership and not because of it.

No one is saying running a profitable enterprise should not be Kroenkes first concern, but when it comes to the point that it's detrimental to what Arsenals primary function is "a football club" and then it's a problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm also not one of those people who wants Usmanov getting more involved. In fact there are strong indicators that he will sell his shares, and I'm quite glad about that.

That's a bold statement. How so?

[Özim]

Do you work for The Sun? :blink:
You have to dig pretty deep to get Wenger "bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs." out of that article.

The guy on AFTV said he said as much in his press conference this morning, the guy is obsessed with money and everything being too expensive, ironic really because he's really expensive to emply himself, doesn't complain about that I bet.

[Marc Overmars]

Do you work for The Sun? :blink:
You have to dig pretty deep to get Wenger "bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs." out of that article.

Meh, paraphrased. He said the same the other week at the PL launch event. Just seems like excuses again by reiterating it.

[Letters]

Meh, paraphrased. He said the same the other week at the PL launch event. Just seems like excuses again by reiterating it.

Just don't understand why you, and you're not the only one, feel the need to pore over everything he says looking for more reasons to have a go at him.
It's like he's your personal nemesis or something.
There's plenty of material to work with, you don't need to go looking for it.

[Power n Glory]

"It is dangerous. English clubs suffocate themselves by buying players at a high price with high wages, if it goes wrong you are left with players with high wages," he said.

This is funny.

[Marc Overmars]

I'm not really looking for anything tbh, he manages to provide all the material for everyone anyway. Of course talking about why he isn't spending money is going to draw a reaction.

[Özim]

"We are not scared to spend money but to buy in itself is not a quality - to buy good players is. This club has been built on that," he adds.

"The transfer policy we have had here has helped build the club. I know we haven't done as much as many people but we are out there. I have made 400 transfers in my life and I know every one has a rhythm that you are not the only one to decide on.

"It's better for me not to speak about any player. But I would like to reassure you that we are not afraid to spend the money we have and we are working very hard.

Not afraid to spend money but won't spend any, funny that.

[fakeyank]

He's made 400 transfers and 20,000 substitutions in his life and everyone has a rythm :lol:

"On the whole transfer market, very little is happening"

TF is the man on about bruh?!

[Özim]

This is funny.

Add to that this which mo was referring to:


"It's important to spend money but more important to spend it the right way. There are two markets, one for English clubs, one for the rest of Europe."

[Özim]

I'm not really looking for anything tbh, he manages to provide all the material for everyone anyway.

Spot on, everytime he opens his mouth he says something patroinising or dum, can't help himself really, it's all there in black and white for everyone to see.

[Bumble]

At least there is less than 2 weeks to go so we can all focus on the football and not who we aren't going to buy.

also I wish we would stop being linked with Jonny Evans... I would rather we signed nobody.

[Power n Glory]

Just don't understand why you, and you're not the only one, feel the need to pore over everything he says looking for more reasons to have a go at him.
It's like he's your personal nemesis or something.
There's plenty of material to work with, you don't need to go looking for it.
:lol: What is it to you? You're sensitive as hell when it comes to Wenger.

[Özim]

"On the whole transfer market, very little is happening"

TF is the man on about bruh?!

That's a load of nonsense too, every other club has been signing players left right and centre, the guy is a BS merchant, someone needs to point out to him that other clubs don't seem to be having the problems he's talking about.

As for his claim he only looks for quality players and doesn't want to sign average players at overinflated prices, he needs to look at some of the sh*te he's signed in recent times, not quality at all.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not really looking for anything tbh, he manages to provide all the material for everyone anyway. Of course talking about why he isn't spending money is going to draw a reaction.

The quotes are misleading. For years these sort of quotes would have everyone playing the guessing game with fans thinking we're on the verge of financial collapse because of the stadium repayments. It's been said on here years ago, even if we had the money, we'd see the same from Wenger.

[Marc Overmars]

:lol: What is it to you? You're sensitive as hell when it comes to Wenger.

I guess if he's my nemesis that must make Letters his cocksucker? :ninja:

[Özim]

:lol: What is it to you? You're sensitive as hell when it comes to Wenger.

I don't get it either, always trying to defend Wenger, the guy doesn't deserve defending he's a horrible example of a manager, if they ever wrote a manual on how to be a manager his methods would be the ones with the large red cross over them, he lies, is patronising and does nothing but make up mythical excuses and reasons as to why we don't sign players or don't do certain things.

[Letters]

I'm not really looking for anything tbh, he manages to provide all the material for everyone anyway. Of course talking about why he isn't spending money is going to draw a reaction.

You're not looking for anything but you picked one quote out of an article about something else and used that to make another stick to beat him with? Ok.

[Letters]

:lol: What is it to you? You're sensitive as hell when it comes to Wenger.

It's just weird tabloid press stuff.
I don't understand why some people act like he's an ex who dumped them in a callous way and now want to pick at anything and everything he says, even if they agree with it :lol:
It's just bizarre, irrational behaviour and it doesn't add anything to debate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's a bold statement. How so?

It's not really a bold statement, it's just saying that his majority shareholder ship has no bearing on how well we perform financially.


I don't know about you but i still want to have a breakdown of what services are provided by KSE that justify the £3million per year, who knows we might be getting a bargain from them but the clandestine nature of it is suspicious.

[Özim]

It's just weird tabloid press stuff.
I don't understand why some people act like he's an ex who dumped them in a callous way and now want to pick at anything and everything he says, even if they agree with it :lol:
It's just bizarre, irrational behaviour and it doesn't add anything to debate.

It's from his press conference this morning, he specifically talked about two different markets


"On the whole transfer market there is very little happening because of the availability of players. You can play huge amounts of money for average players - there are plenty of those - but to find the ones who will strengthen your squad, that is more difficult."

"I can reassure people we're ready to spend the money we have," Wenger said.

"It's important to spend money but more important to spend it the right way. There are two markets, one for English clubs, one for the rest of Europe."

Always whingeing about money, there are loads of players we could have signed this summer, which other clubs have signed, once again we go through a whole summer with barely anyone new, that his fault not the market, not the clubs, not the pope, his excuses are total and utter BS tbh.

What's bizarre and irrational is the way you go out of your way to defend the guy, god knows why.

[Marc Overmars]

You're not looking for anything but you picked one quote out of an article about something else and used that to make another stick to beat him with? Ok.

Huh? It's a small article and the majority of the quotes in it are him talking about having to be cautious because of the wealth of English clubs. I paraphrased the headline yes but I didn't have to look for anything.

[Power n Glory]

It's not really a bold statement, it's just saying that his majority shareholder ship has no bearing on how well we perform financially.


I don't know about you but i still want to have a breakdown of what services are provided by KSE that justify the £3million per year, who knows we might be getting a bargain from them but the clandestine nature of it is suspicious.

There have been plenty of owners that come along and ruined a club. Liverpool's former owners, Newcastle, Villa, Blackburn....

Besides the clubs that make a lot of noise in the transfer window, I'll be honest, I don't really know much about how other clubs are run compared to us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/st-louis-fans-honor-rams-legends-indoors-trash-stan-kroenke-outside-002022870.html

I am less concerned about how other owners do their business, i think it's fair to say we aren't the only club with a toxic owner....it doesn't make it any less concerning though.

[Power n Glory]

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/st-louis-fans-honor-rams-legends-indoors-trash-stan-kroenke-outside-002022870.html

I am less concerned about how other owners do their business, i think it's fair to say we aren't the only club with a toxic owner....it doesn't make it any less concerning though.

What does that link mean? I don't understand how things work with American football. They have a draft and salary cap system so it doesn't translate to football over here easily. I've heard about him moving the Rams to LA a while back but I also read that having that franchise in St Louis was doing more harm to the city than good because it was a financial drain being paid for by the public.

I found a quick link for you to read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/16/sports/football/st-louis-should-be-glad-it-lost-the-rams.html?_r=0

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What does that link mean? I don't understand how things work with American football. They have a draft and salary cap system so it doesn't translate to football over here easily. I've heard about him moving the Rams to LA a while back but I also read that having that franchise in St Louis was doing more harm to the city than good because it was a financial drain being paid for by the public.

I found a quick link for you to read.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/16/sports/football/st-louis-should-be-glad-it-lost-the-rams.html?_r=0

Yes i have heard that argument, the same argument was that it was due to poor turn out at the stadium which the fans say was because of the lack of investment by Kroenke.

Let's not pretend though that saving the taxpayer money was on Kroenke's mind, the point was to illustrate that we have an owner who is more than willing to shaft fans.

[Kano]

The guy on AFTV said he said as much in his press conference this morning, the guy is obsessed with money and everything being too expensive, ironic really because he's really expensive to emply himself, doesn't complain about that I bet.

£8m bastard!

[Power n Glory]

Yes i have heard that argument, the same argument was that it was due to poor turn out at the stadium which the fans say was because of the lack of investment by Kroenke.

Let's not pretend though that saving the taxpayer money was on Kroenke's mind, the point was to illustrate that we have an owner who is more than willing to shaft fans.

Do you understand how an owner is supposed to invest when it comes to American Football? They have a draft system and salary cap. Can he directly invest in the team in the same way it's done in football?

I doubt he was thinking about taxpayers when he made the decision to move but any fan more worried about the lack of investment in a team over investment in their city could probably learn something from Stan. But that's not what's up for debate. It's about ownership and how football clubs are run. Not American football.

[Kano]

Just don't understand why you, and you're not the only one, feel the need to pore over everything he says looking for more reasons to have a go at him.
It's like he's your personal nemesis or something.
There's plenty of material to work with, you don't need to go looking for it.

I agree with you to an extent and while the majority of these statements are a result of being asked a pointed question by a journalist trying to manipulate the current anxiety amongst Arsenal fans, he really doesn't help himself. If he understands the frustrations of the fans and why there is growing unease, then his and the clubs public responses should be more tailored towards something positive. His politician type approach of answering with a non-committal 'third way' most of time. It does show that the club really is out of step with the fans, which only increases the unease.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you understand how an owner is supposed to invest when it comes to American Football? They have a draft system and salary cap. Can he directly invest in the team in the same way it's done in football?

I doubt he was thinking about taxpayers when he made the decision to move but any fan more worried about the lack of investment in a team over investment in their city could probably learn something from Stan. But that's not what's up for debate. It's about ownership and how football clubs are run. Not American football.

And what is left of the franchise in St Louis still owes money for the legal fees that it had to pay because the owners didn't want to invest the money to get the stadium up to scratch, and Kroenke has shown no interest in paying off that bill so i doubt the Missouri tax payer will feel they owe him any gratitude.

Investment is more than just players

[Power n Glory]

And what is left of the franchise in St Louis still owes money for the legal fees that it had to pay because the owners didn't want to invest the money to get the stadium up to scratch, and Kroenke has shown no interest in paying off that bill so i doubt the Missouri tax payer will feel they owe him any gratitude.

Investment is more than just players

But do you understand where he should have invested for that franchise to thrive?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But do you understand where he should have invested for that franchise to thrive?

I understand that it wasn't impossible for that franchise to thrive considering the Rams won the super bowl in 2000 and 2002

That it was convenient for Kroenke because he had land in Inglewood that he had initially purchased for property development

He wasn't screwing over people remote to him either, Kroenke comes from Missouri.

[Power n Glory]

I understand that it wasn't impossible for that franchise to thrive considering the Rams won the super bowl in 2000 and 2002

That it was convenient for Kroenke because he had land in Inglewood that he had initially purchased for property development

He wasn't screwing over people remote to him either, Kroenke comes from Missouri.

How did they win the Super Bowl in 2000 and 2002? Did it come from investment from the owners? If so, how?

Maybe someone else that follows American football can explain.

[Power n Glory]

And what is left of the franchise in St Louis still owes money for the legal fees that it had to pay because the owners didn't want to invest the money to get the stadium up to scratch, and Kroenke has shown no interest in paying off that bill so i doubt the Missouri tax payer will feel they owe him any gratitude.

Investment is more than just players

Just to come back on this point, if you can't invest in the playing staff, is it a case that you have to invest in the stadium? If so, would it make sense to build a new stadium in St Louis if attendance is dropping?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is funny.

It's not funny, it's sad. The guy just talks total shit these days. And everything he says is a pre-excuse for the failure he fucking well knows is ahead. Invariably. The guy's a joke. As an economics professor, theologian, philosopher, fine - but as a football manager he's nowhere, just a sad comedy figure shitting out his bullshit excuses. Always everybody else's fault, always some crappy reason why he can't and won't do his fucking job.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Just to come back on this point, if you can't invest in the playing staff, is it a case that you have to invest in the stadium? If so, would it make sense to build a new stadium in St Louis if attendance is dropping?

Neither the draft or the wage cap stops you from investing totally in the team. Plus let's be honest, even if attendance was at maximum would it have stopped someone like Kroenke moving the franchise back to LA anyway?

[Niall_Quinn]

I understand that, and it is obvious that Wenger believes messianistically in his approach. But his belief that he is doing the best for the Club does not equate either to the question of whether he is doing his best for the club. Footballing success for Arsenal FC is not a subjective issue. It is an objective one. Success is winning trophies. This is not necessarily the case for all clubs who have little realistic hope of doing so - and I will accept that for these clubs the bar is lower, but the test even for these clubs remains an objective one - have they done as well as they can do with the resources at their disposal? When it comes to Arsenal, it is fair to expect a club with our resources to be competing for titles with the best clubs - both at home and in Europe. Doing the best job financially should not be in a manager's remit, and I do not accept that a manager 'doing his best' financially is a manager doing his best for our club.

We all accepted this idea during the stadium project period - because we thought that the caution in the transfer market was the means to ensure that we would compete with the best at a future stage. But recent times have shown this to be a fallacy. As a club we have become bound to a philosophy that is risk averse; uncompetitive and lacking in ambition. The manager is an integral part of this flawed approach - and it being taken with his eyes firmly open.

Which would be just a little bit easier to swallow if we were all in it together, so to speak. But if you're inside then you are making a fucking fortune, obscene amounts. And if you are outside, and the fans are most definitely outside, you are being fleeced a fortune relatively speaking. A one way street. Massively convenient and lucrative for a few, total frustration for the rest. They won't even give us a decent game of football to watch. Instead we get the football equivalent of prudent sustainability - tap, tap, tip, tap, sideway, back, FUCKING SHOOT FFS!

That's why I think all these people, including the manager, are fundamentally dishonest to varying degrees.

[Niall_Quinn]

"On the whole transfer market, very little is happening"

TF is the man on about bruh?!

The club most likely to nick our 4th place trophy has signed Pogba, Mikki and Zlatan, plus a few others here and there.

But that's all!

[Letters]

Huh? It's a small article and the majority of the quotes in it are him talking about having to be cautious because of the wealth of English clubs. I paraphrased the headline yes but I didn't have to look for anything.

Are we even talking about the same thing? The link you posted was this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37115355

The headline is "Arsene Wenger: Arsenal 'ready' to spend money in transfer market"
The quotes from Wenger in the article are:

"I can reassure people we're ready to spend the money we have. It's important to spend money but more important to spend it the right way. There are two markets, one for English clubs, one for the rest of Europe."
"[Ramsey] should be back after the international break".
"It is dangerous. English clubs suffocate themselves by buying players at a high price with high wages, if it goes wrong you are left with players with high wages, the identity of the buyer multiplies transfers by two or three or even 10 times more."


And from that you got he's moaning about tax? :unsure:

[Niall_Quinn]

It's just weird tabloid press stuff.
I don't understand why some people act like he's an ex who dumped them in a callous way and now want to pick at anything and everything he says, even if they agree with it :lol:
It's just bizarre, irrational behaviour and it doesn't add anything to debate.

Because it would be nice, after a hard week, to enjoy a football match on the weekend and have a bit of interest in the outcome. That's about it. No demand for trophies, no demand for hundred mill players, just some nice football and the an interest in proceedings throughout the season. Without the foreknowledge of inevitable collapses and embarrassing Euro campaigns. Without the frustration of consistently seeing a squad with gaping holes in it and knowing that squad might deliver the football and interest the typical fan wants to see, if only those gaps were plugged.

And there's one man who stands in the way of all that and deliberately does everything in his power to deliver the opposite of what the fans demand. And not only that, blames the fucking fans when he gets called out for his bullshit.

Is it really any wonder many fans are sick of the guy and just want him to GTFO? And sure, they'll say as much. Totally understandable.

[Power n Glory]

It's not funny, it's sad. The guy just talks total shit these days. And everything he says is a pre-excuse for the failure he fucking well knows is ahead. Invariably. The guy's a joke. As an economics professor, theologian, philosopher, fine - but as a football manager he's nowhere, just a sad comedy figure shitting out his bullshit excuses. Always everybody else's fault, always some crappy reason why he can't and won't do his fucking job.

You have to laugh at him. It's crazy. I don't know where the lack of pride and motivation comes from. I mean, Mourinho calls Wenger a specialist in failure, we end up play Jose's Chelsea for Wenger's 1000th game and he ends losing 6-0. Where is his pride? How do you end losing by such a wide margin, his heaviest defeat at the hands of Mourinho under such conditions? I don't get it.

[Power n Glory]

Neither the draft or the wage cap stops you from investing totally in the team. Plus let's be honest, even if attendance was at maximum would it have stopped someone like Kroenke moving the franchise back to LA anyway?


Do you follow American Football and actually know what you're talking about or just being defensive?

[Marc Overmars]

Are we even talking about the same thing? The link you posted was this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37115355

The headline is "Arsene Wenger: Arsenal 'ready' to spend money in transfer market"
The quotes from Wenger in the article are:

"I can reassure people we're ready to spend the money we have. It's important to spend money but more important to spend it the right way. There are two markets, one for English clubs, one for the rest of Europe."
"[Ramsey] should be back after the international break".
"It is dangerous. English clubs suffocate themselves by buying players at a high price with high wages, if it goes wrong you are left with players with high wages, the identity of the buyer multiplies transfers by two or three or even 10 times more."


And from that you got he's moaning about tax? :unsure:

Yeah, he said the same thing about English clubs having to spend more last week too. They are excuses.

[Niall_Quinn]

£8m bastard!

#8mill a year for 10 years of failure is, in fact, a scandal. I don't know why some people scoff when this man's ill-gotten reward is mentioned. Every time, mention how expensive this flop is and the usual suspects leap in. For sure, other incompetent fools at other clubs are robbing the fans too. But we're concerned about our club and our manager and as far as I can see and according to the record books this guy is well and truly fucking overpaid - by about £8mill I'd estimate.

[Letters]

Yeah, he said the same thing about English clubs having to spend more last week too. They are excuses.

:blink:

OK, so we are talking about the same thing.

So you think

"WUMger bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs."

us a 'paraphrase' of the headline:

"Arsene Wenger: Arsenal 'ready' to spend money in transfer market".

OK...

[Özim]

You have to laugh at him. It's crazy. I don't know where the lack of pride and motivation comes from. I mean, Mourinho calls Wenger a specialist in failure, we end up play Jose's Chelsea for Wenger's 1000th game and he ends losing 6-0. Where is his pride? How do you end losing by such a wide margin, his heaviest defeat at the hands of Mourinho under such conditions? I don't get it.

He has no pride and that result was a real humilation for him, honestly getting hammered 6-0 in your 1000th game by a man who has been slating you in the press, doesn't get worse than that.

Worst part about it is, Mourinho was spot on the guy is a specialist in failure, his comment about being able to play kids with no pressure on him to deliver success was also correct, other managers at big clubs have pressure on them to succeed but not the specialist in failure.

[Özim]

Yeah, he said the same thing about English clubs having to spend more last week too. They are excuses.

Spot on, it's laughable he comes out wit this BS about being ready to spend, he's spouting nonsense though, he's had all summer and last summer to spend and he's not done it, all he does is make excuses, some of them totally made up, like the fact there's no movement in the market when every club has been signing players all summer.

You'll still find people trying to defend his ridiculous words though, there is no defence frankly.

[Marc Overmars]

:blink:

OK, so we are talking about the same thing.

So you think

"WUMger bemoans the English tax imposed on PL clubs."

us a 'paraphrase' of the headline:

"Arsene Wenger: Arsenal 'ready' to spend money in transfer market".

OK...

Oh this is where our wires are crossed. I was paraphrasing what the majority of the quotes said and formed my own headline, as all apart from the one about Ramsey are related.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger isn't a specialist in failure, he's a specialist in mediocrity. The opposite of maureen, which is of course a good thing in many ways but not in terms of the results that are delivered. You'll watch maureen on a rollercoaster, champion one minute, sacked the next. Wenger though, he'll just endure. Same shit, over and over and over. No highs, no lows, just a flatline. A slow, lingering, suffocating blandness that annihilates joy or excitement or anticipation or any of the emotions that would attract you to sport in the first place.

[Özim]

#8mill a year for 10 years of failure is, in fact, a scandal. I don't know why some people scoff when this man's ill-gotten reward is mentioned. Every time, mention how expensive this flop is and the usual suspects leap in. For sure, other incompetent fools at other clubs are robbing the fans too. But we're concerned about our club and our manager and as far as I can see and according to the record books this guy is well and truly fucking overpaid - by about £8mill I'd estimate.

He's manoeuvred himself into that position by making himself his own boss, he's said it before he'll decide when he leaves (is that how it usually works), doesn't give a sh*t about the fans or the club.

He today also made another comment


"I focus on my job and do exactly 100% what I think is right. I think I have shown in 20 years that it does not work too badly.

Really, a lot of people think you're doing a lousy job pal.

[Letters]

And there's one man who stands in the way of all that and deliberately does everything in his power to deliver the opposite of what the fans demand.
Well, that's obviously bullshit.


Is it really any wonder many fans are sick of the guy and just want him to GTFO?
No, that is understandable. But people don't have to make stuff up, there's plenty of material available. Some of the stuff on here really is bitter ex level stuff.
And of course the usual suspects always come out with assertions that I defend Wenger at every opportunity. Where have I defended him in this conversation?!
I just think it's bizarre just how bitter some people are.
He's hardly got us relegated or bankrupted us (quite the opposite!)

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, that's obviously bullshit.


No, that is understandable. But people don't have to make stuff up, there's plenty of material available. Some of the stuff on here really is bitter ex level stuff.
And of course the usual suspects always come out with assertions that I defend Wenger at every opportunity. Where have I defended him in this conversation?!
I just think it's bizarre just how bitter some people are.
He's hardly got us relegated or bankrupted us (quite the opposite!)

I'm pretty sure that's the sort of thing that gets people irritated. Like a rapist - "Oh come on love, it's not like you caught AIDS - cheer the fuck up!"

And yes - rapist is appropriate.

[Letters]

Oh this is where our wires are crossed. I was paraphrasing what the majority of the quotes said and formed my own headline, as all apart from the one about Ramsey are related.

He doesn't mention tax although from what you say he has mentioned it elsewhere so I guess that is what he's alluding to with the "two markets" thing. It just seemed a strange thing to focus on.
My reaction to the article is actions speak louder than words. I guess he's right that we need to spend money in the 'right' way, but FFS just spend it. Players that would genuinely improve us don't grow on trees but they are out there, he's had all summer and not got any.

[Letters]

And yes - rapist is appropriate.
It really, really isn't.

[Power n Glory]

Just reading Bergkamp's book and he's talking about training and giving 100%. What made that camp so great was iron sharpening iron. Dennis going up against Sol made him a better attacker. Sol having to stop Henry and Bergkamp made him a better player.


We're not doing our young players any favours with this cheapskate approach. He must be able to find better players than Theo, Iwobi, Ox, Chambers.... They need to be training against the best.

[Özim]

Just reading Bergkamp's book and he's talking about training and giving 100%. What made that camp so great was iron sharpening iron. Dennis going up against Sol made him a better attacker. Sol having to stop Henry and Bergkamp made him a better player.


We're not doing our young players any favours with this cheapskate approach. He must be able to find better players than Theo, Iwobi, Ox, Chambers.... They need to be training against the best.

We only buy the best according to Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

It really, really isn't.

A perp who has fucked the fans against their wishes for his own self gratification.

Text book.

[Power n Glory]

A perp who has fucked the fans against their wishes for his own self gratification.

Text book.

It's really hard to understand his behaviour when he talks about respecting the game and it being close to religion. Doing everything to serve the game and not your ego. Making the right choices that serve the game and not yourself. He's lost his way. Digging his heels in like this is hurting the club.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do you follow American Football and actually know what you're talking about or just being defensive?

I'm just pointing out that we have a owner who is a cunt. If you find what he did with the Rams franchise acceptable that's up to you, but it's purely and totally driven by money and nothing else. He is basically persona non grata in his home state and to argue that this kind of individual represents anything but bad news for us...well I'm sorry I don't understand.
I don't even get the point of this discussion it seems to me that it all comes down to wanting everything to come down to it just being Wengers fault and that we can wipe the slate clean when he goes, I don't see it....Wenger seems to me to be the symptom of a much larger disease.
I honestly don't think Arsenal will reach its potential unless Kroenke sells the club, and that won't happen because this is not a guy who sells the sporting franchises he accumulates.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's really hard to understand his behaviour when he talks about respecting the game and it being close to religion. Doing everything to serve the game and not your ego. Making the right choices that serve the game and not yourself. He's lost his way. Digging his heels in like this is hurting the club.

We'll talk about this stuff, yet again, for a couple more weeks and then we're into another season already knowing the outcome. I won't be here next season though, if he's still here. There's only so many times you can go through the same old routine and not become utterly bored by it all. Unless you are Wenger, in which case the more times around the wheel the more justification for your fantasies. What would be humiliation to anybody else is a source of pride for him. He boats about it. 20 years and he reckons he hasn't done too badly. As if not doing too badly is a measure of success. His aim is super low. He hits his insignificant target year after year. A few people get rich. A few more fans get replaced by consumers. He's dragged the whole club down to his lamentable standards and the embarrassment to ice the cake is he works his nuts off to achieve... nothing. It's pathetic and he's making all of us just as pathetic, hanging around here analysing his shit. This is like watching Mr Bean and getting angry when Bean gets it all wrong. Of course he gets it wrong, he's Mr Bean. Bean thinks he's done a great job though, that self satisfied smile, the pride at his hysterical achievement. Well we all know what Wenger should be doing, but he won't do it, he'll do the opposite. Because he's Wenger. And that little smile, the self congratulatory superiority. Do you laugh, do you scream, or do you just walk away from the insanity before your brain short circuits?

[Power n Glory]

I'm just pointing out that we have a owner who is a cunt. If you find what he did with the Rams franchise acceptable that's up to you, but it's purely and totally driven by money and nothing else. He is basically persona non grata in his home state and to argue that this kind of individual represents anything but bad news for us...well I'm sorry I don't understand.
I don't even get the point of this discussion it seems to me that it all comes down to wanting everything to come down to it just being Wengers fault and that we can wipe the slate clean when he goes, I don't see it....Wenger seems to me to be the symptom of a much larger disease.
I honestly don't think Arsenal will reach its potential unless Kroenke sells the club, and that won't happen because this is not a guy who sells the sporting franchises he accumulates.

So you don't know what you're talking about. :lol:

This is all air. You're saying nothing about the structure, how it relates to us and yes, he's a cunt, but how does his cuntishness differ from the other cunts running other clubs? You can't answer that... cool. Move on. But it would be good to hear from someone that really knows about him or how other clubs are run. I'm genuinely interested and wrongly assumed you knew something more. If you don't know the point of the discussion, quit trolling and approaching every conversation as if I'm your opposition or as if their is some sort of devious agenda that's out to make Wenger look bad. When you look at things from all angles, things may start to make a little more sense even if you don't agree with it.

[cricketsi]

A perp who has fucked the fans against their wishes for his own self gratification.

Text book.

Trivialisation of rape isn't really appropriate, to be honest.

[Niall_Quinn]

Trivialisation of rape isn't really appropriate, to be honest.

Oxford English Dictionary:
2. The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place: "the rape of the countryside"

As I previously said. The word is entirely appropriate.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm just pointing out that we have a owner who is a cunt.

That's about all that needs to be said about that guy really.

[Power n Glory]

We'll talk about this stuff, yet again, for a couple more weeks and then we're into another season already knowing the outcome. I won't be here next season though, if he's still here. There's only so many times you can go through the same old routine and not become utterly bored by it all. Unless you are Wenger, in which case the more times around the wheel the more justification for your fantasies. What would be humiliation to anybody else is a source of pride for him. He boats about it. 20 years and he reckons he hasn't done too badly. As if not doing too badly is a measure of success. His aim is super low. He hits his insignificant target year after year. A few people get rich. A few more fans get replaced by consumers. He's dragged the whole club down to his lamentable standards and the embarrassment to ice the cake is he works his nuts off to achieve... nothing. It's pathetic and he's making all of us just as pathetic, hanging around here analysing his shit. This is like watching Mr Bean and getting angry when Bean gets it all wrong. Of course he gets it wrong, he's Mr Bean. Bean thinks he's done a great job though, that self satisfied smile, the pride at his hysterical achievement. Well we all know what Wenger should be doing, but he won't do it, he'll do the opposite. Because he's Wenger. And that little smile, the self congratulatory superiority. Do you laugh, do you scream, or do you just walk away from the insanity before your brain short circuits?

I know what you mean. If I see the same line up that failed last season against Leicester, I'm checking out until deadline day. If we don't make any major moves on the final day, then that's me for the season and until Wenger goes. I can't take another season of the same crap. It's a huge waste of time.

He's really lost sight of the purpose of this project. He's kept us stable and if being objective, we really are in a unique position as a club. We're on the verge of doing something no other club has done before. Humble beginnings and now close to being up their with the elites. It's something. But at what cost? We're close to losing our soul as a club. For the fans to wait 10 years to get here and have this con pulled on us is pretty disgraceful. It's worse because Wenger has been totally complicit and recent quotes even suggests he's the driving force for this robbery. Why? I don't get why he's so blind to the outrage when he's been with us from the start. I can understand how and why Stan would feel disconnected. Heck, Silent Stan is a silent partner in all this. That's not shocking to me. There are plenty of business models where the silent partner has no real passion for the art but it's the artists and creative that are the driving force to make the best of what they have. That's why I really don't understand Wenger. Especially when I read old stories about his character. Every quote I read about transfers seem to contradict his character. Has he lost his love for football?

I can't understand how he hasn't seen how this is eating away at fans. Even if he felt like he was doing the right thing at one point and serving football, putting aside his ego and willing to go without trophies, how can he not look at what the fans and players have been calling for and not feel like he's betraying the game? How can he not see that he's doing a disservice to players that have believed in him and wasted their prime under him. All for the purpose of keeping shareholders happy. We are being robbed. I get where you're coming from and there comes a point where we have to walk away.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

As you all refuse to talk about unrealistic transfers.....

He's become an elite version of Curbishley.....

[Marc Overmars]

Palace agree 32m fee for Benteke. :lol:

[cricketsi]

Oxford English Dictionary:
2. The wanton destruction or spoiling of a place: "the rape of the countryside"

As I previously said. The word is entirely appropriate.

Except with your previous usage of "fucking" and "self gratification" clearly equivocated your usage of the word with the other meaning.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Palace agree 32m fee for Benteke. :lol:

Good player, especially in a team built to his strengths i.e. actually crossing a ball occasionally.

He's an absolutely nailed on to score against us now too.

[alexander]

Looks like the club have pulled the wool over my eyes again. I fell for it again, all the talk of spending and players coming in.

Im such a mug.

From the looks of it, the way we do transfers, we go in for a player, club say "we want a bit more money", then we walk away. Its all total BS. We have fallen a long way this club. Im thinking we actually wont sign anyone now, I thought we would, but I just think if we wanted anyone we would have done it by now.

Joke of a manager and owner.

[Power n Glory]

Good player, especially in a team built to his strengths i.e. actually crossing a ball occasionally.

He's an absolutely nailed on to score against us now too.

Sometimes you get good players that go to a team that doesn't fit the system. It happens. I haven't totally wrote him off.

[Niall_Quinn]

Palace agree 32m fee for Benteke. :lol:

It really is quite mad. It's all well and good Wenger complaining, yes he's right, the fees in comparison to the dross they purchase are shocking. But does that mean we refuse to compete? With Crystal Palace? There comes a point where you put aside your personal opinions and get with the reality. If the aim of football was to be financially prudent then you could say participating in this insanity is contrary to the principles of the sport. But of course that's not the aim. So what is he really compromising if he gets his chequebook out? Profit. That's what he's fighting to uphold. Not principles.

[Niall_Quinn]

Except with your previous usage of "fucking" and "self gratification" clearly equivocated your usage of the word with the other meaning.

Yes indeed. Both definitions could apply. One metaphorically, the other literally, with maybe the primary definition being less suitable because the numbers being abused in the case of Arsenal is extraordinarily high.

[alexander]

Palace agree 32m fee for Benteke. :lol:

realistically, what would this make Messi/Ronaldo worth if they came to the PL? Although the money doesnt always correlate with actual quality it seems.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So you don't know what you're talking about. :lol:

This is all air. You're saying nothing about the structure, how it relates to us and yes, he's a cunt, but how does his cuntishness differ from the other cunts running other clubs? You can't answer that... cool. Move on. But it would be good to hear from someone that really knows about him or how other clubs are run. I'm genuinely interested and wrongly assumed you knew something more. If you don't know the point of the discussion, quit trolling and approaching every conversation as if I'm your opposition or as if their is some sort of devious agenda that's out to make Wenger look bad. When you look at things from all angles, things may start to make a little more sense even if you don't agree with it.

Your condescending tone aside, no I don't think there's a devious agenda I just think too many people are setting themselves up for a fall. The Rams is just one example, Stans entire sporting portfolio is one of under investment and total lack of interest of anything these franchises do in a sporting sense.
You need to get over yourself and stop assuming that people who disagree with you are trolling, I do understand that yes franchises move in the NFL, I am also aware that there is a draft and a wage cap structure so the owner cannot influence in the team the same way a rich benefactor would in the EPL....I have read enough about what was going on to know that it was an Oportunistic dick move that sums up the man.
We don't have the benefit of knowing that he will push off if he gets bored because he hasn't invested in us for that reason, and if the Wenger is the one thing holding us back than Kroenke is the one to blame there because he won't get rid of Wenger whilst he is still bringing him in the money.
But fine you don't agree with that assessment

[Power n Glory]

Your condescending tone aside, no I don't think there's a devious agenda I just think too many people are setting themselves up for a fall. The Rams is just one example, Stans entire sporting portfolio is one of under investment and total lack of interest of anything these franchises do in a sporting sense.
You need to get over yourself and stop assuming that people who disagree with you are trolling, I do understand that yes franchises move in the NFL, I am also aware that there is a draft and a wage cap structure so the owner cannot influence in the team the same way a rich benefactor would in the EPL....I have read enough about what was going on to know that it was an Oportunistic dick move that sums up the man.
We don't have the benefit of knowing that he will push off if he gets bored because he hasn't invested in us for that reason, and if the Wenger is the one thing holding us back than Kroenke is the one to blame there because he won't get rid of Wenger whilst he is still bringing him in the money.
But fine you don't agree with that assessment

Neither of us really follow the NFL and I wouldn't use the Rams or any of his other American clubs as a case study. As said, they have a draft system, salary cap and the teams have different financial structures in place. With that in mind, neither of us can really identify what makes for a well run NFL franchise. Off the top of your head, you wouldn't be able to tell me why the Patriots are successful and well run compared to the Rams. That's why it's a bit a pointless. Neither of us can distinguish between the good and bad structures in NFL. Heck, I swear Kroenke got some sort of award for sports exec of the year. :lol: We're still unable to pinpoint where he should be investing if there is a salary cap and draft system in place. That's why I ask for someone with more knowledge to shed light on how that works.

As for Wenger and what happens without him...I don't know. I think of Arsenal before Kroenke and when we had just moved to the stadium and we had the same sort of problems, going into seasons unprepared and hardly any new senior signings. People would often complain on here about the old Board not supporting Wenger. That was even with Dein here at the club and Stan out of the picture. Maybe it's revisionism. You even mentioned Peter 'Thanks for your interest in our affairs' Hill Wood as if he is somehow better for the club and cares about football. He kicked Dein out, welcomed Kroenke in and presided over this whole debacle for years without stepping in. He handed Wenger the power when Dein was booted and to me it looks like Ivan is trying to wrestle some of that back from Wenger and change the structure.

But putting all that aside, I think it's possible to balance commerce and art. We're not totally broken as a club, I just think Wenger has lost his way and the focus is lopsided on his part. It would be better if we had an owner/s that was totally drive by football and success, we haven't had that in the past but that didn't stop Wenger from achieving because he had a focus to produce something magnificent on the pitch and financial success came from that. Now I believe he has his priorities backwards. Even with an owner that has no passion for football, that shouldn't kill Wenger's drive or the future manager of this club, should it?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Neither of us really follow the NFL and I wouldn't use the Rams or any of his other American clubs as a case study. As said, they have a draft system, salary cap and the teams have different financial structures in place. With that in mind, neither of us can really identify what makes for a well run NFL franchise. Off the top of your head, you wouldn't be able to tell me why the Patriots are successful and well run compared to the Rams. That's why it's a bit a pointless. Neither of us can distinguish between the good and bad structures in NFL. Heck, I swear Kroenke got some sort of award for sports exec of the year. :lol: We're still unable to pinpoint where he should be investing if there is a salary cap and draft system in place. That's why I ask for someone with more knowledge to shed light on how that works.

As for Wenger and what happens without him...I don't know. I think of Arsenal before Kroenke and when we had just moved to the stadium and we had the same sort of problems, going into seasons unprepared and hardly any new senior signings. People would often complain on here about the old Board not supporting Wenger. That was even with Dein here at the club and Stan out of the picture. Maybe it's revisionism. You even mentioned Peter 'Thanks for your interest in our affairs' Hill Wood as if he is somehow better for the club and cares about football. He kicked Dein out, welcomed Kroenke in and presided over this whole debacle for years without stepping in. He handed Wenger the power when Dein was booted and to me it looks like Ivan is trying to wrestle some of that back from Wenger and change the structure.

But putting all that aside, I think it's possible to balance commerce and art. We're not totally broken as a club, I just think Wenger has lost his way and the focus is lopsided on his part. It would be better if we had an owner/s that was totally drive by football and success, we haven't had that in the past but that didn't stop Wenger from achieving because he had a focus to produce something magnificent on the pitch and financial success came from that. Now I believe he has his priorities backwards. Even with an owner that has no passion for football, that shouldn't kill Wenger's drive or the future manager of this club, should it?

The board have always been tight with money, that's never been under any dispute.....and often we went into season's unprepared because the money was not there to spend on players to begin with, whilst i think the club's financial constraints were exaggerated....it's in no way a coincidence that in the summer when the stadium rights were re-negotiated and we got ourselves a better deal for kit sponsorship that we bought in five players and our gross spend was 82million and our net spend was 67 million. What has become apparent in the last few seasons is that we can spend money and Wenger is choosing not to, well actually he is not choosing not to he is prevaricating and agonising over price/value and in doing so is allowing targets to end up elsewhere.
What is factually true is that since 2012 we have not had to sell players, and be in a situation where the money we bring in for transfers exceeds our transfer outlay.
Often Wenger would seem to spend any money he did have on player wages, often giving people contracts based on potential to stop them from being poached and then finding out that these players were useless and struggling to get them off the wage bill.
I don't have the figures but i'd like to see how much an average season ticket has gone up in terms of % since 2011, and compare that with the five years previous to that....Kroenke's philosophy is that if you are selling out the stadium you are not charging enough for tickets.

[Niall_Quinn]

I used to follow the NFL very closely in the 80s/ 90s and when I look at it today it is unrecognisable. There seems to be very little stability in terms of the rosters. Back when I watched you could almost guarantee the star players would all turn out for the one team through their careers, or the productive years in their careers. Sure, there would be movement but not like the merry-go-round I see today. That's one of the reasons I haven't gone back to it. Who they hell knows who anybody is. All the expansion teams, the rotating rosters. I do know that the draft was something that was routinely "subverted" through the trade system, so no actual guarantee the lowest finishers got the hottest new talent. But they'd get something at least, maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick combination. And the system applies to rookies only. As for the wage cap, from what I can gather that's a device designed to ensure the players get wheelbarrows of cash and extra wheelbarrows of cash when the revenues rise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's an overall cap. It's not like saying a single player can only earn x amount. It's to do with the entire wage bill for the team. And coaches and staff aren't included in that. And there's no limit ion what can be spent on facilities, particularly all important medical and fitness facilities, doctors, trainers, etc. This is the most lucrative league in all of sport, still much bigger than the PL. Everything about it revolves around money.

In fact the chavs, gypos and Utd are like the first NFL style PL teams. Cash, cash, cash. More cash and wheeler dealing all over the place. And the Spaniard and Italian clubs take on another aspect of American sport, the nasty associations with highly undesirable individuals who call themselves "businessmen". We're seeing those types here too, your Russians and Arabs. I don't think Kroenke is one of that gang. He's more a leech. Finding rich veins and depositing himself for the long haul.

[Power n Glory]

The board have always been tight with money, that's never been under any dispute.....and often we went into season's unprepared because the money was not there to spend on players to begin with, whilst i think the club's financial constraints were exaggerated....it's in no way a coincidence that in the summer when the stadium rights were re-negotiated and we got ourselves a better deal for kit sponsorship that we bought in five players and our gross spend was 82million and our net spend was 67 million. What has become apparent in the last few seasons is that we can spend money and Wenger is choosing not to, well actually he is not choosing not to he is prevaricating and agonising over price/value and in doing so is allowing targets to end up elsewhere.
What is factually true is that since 2012 we have not had to sell players, and be in a situation where the money we bring in for transfers exceeds our transfer outlay.
Often Wenger would seem to spend any money he did have on player wages, often giving people contracts based on potential to stop them from being poached and then finding out that these players were useless and struggling to get them off the wage bill.
I don't have the figures but i'd like to see how much an average season ticket has gone up in terms of % since 2011, and compare that with the five years previous to that....Kroenke's philosophy is that if you are selling out the stadium you are not charging enough for tickets.

That last part I have a problem with. But I also have a problem with Wenger backing the season ticket price hikes.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Please....please....! Sign a player(ssss)!

[Niall_Quinn]

Please....please....! Sign a player(ssss)!

Would it help if I ran through the list of players we almost signed?

[Power n Glory]

I used to follow the NFL very closely in the 80s/ 90s and when I look at it today it is unrecognisable. There seems to be very little stability in terms of the rosters. Back when I watched you could almost guarantee the star players would all turn out for the one team through their careers, or the productive years in their careers. Sure, there would be movement but not like the merry-go-round I see today. That's one of the reasons I haven't gone back to it. Who they hell knows who anybody is. All the expansion teams, the rotating rosters. I do know that the draft was something that was routinely "subverted" through the trade system, so no actual guarantee the lowest finishers got the hottest new talent. But they'd get something at least, maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick combination. And the system applies to rookies only. As for the wage cap, from what I can gather that's a device designed to ensure the players get wheelbarrows of cash and extra wheelbarrows of cash when the revenues rise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's an overall cap. It's not like saying a single player can only earn x amount. It's to do with the entire wage bill for the team. And coaches and staff aren't included in that. And there's no limit ion what can be spent on facilities, particularly all important medical and fitness facilities, doctors, trainers, etc. This is the most lucrative league in all of sport, still much bigger than the PL. Everything about it revolves around money.

In fact the chavs, gypos and Utd are like the first NFL style PL teams. Cash, cash, cash. More cash and wheeler dealing all over the place. And the Spaniard and Italian clubs take on another aspect of American sport, the nasty associations with highly undesirable individuals who call themselves "businessmen". We're seeing those types here too, your Russians and Arabs. I don't think Kroenke is one of that gang. He's more a leech. Finding rich veins and depositing himself for the long haul.

I used to watch the Washington Redskins back in the 90s. :lol:

Yes, I think that's how the salary cap works. You can't go over an allocated budget so it makes it more difficult to have a team with all the best stars. Well, that's the theory.

[Power n Glory]

Please....please....! Sign a player(ssss)!

Gabriel Barbosa is still available. He hasn't been snapped up yet.

[Munchies]

Welbeck will be back by Christmas not April!

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/766395235261779969

Like a new signing!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That last part I have a problem with. But I also have a problem with Wenger backing the season ticket price hikes.

Wenger is largely irrelevant to it all, it's totally wrong that he backed the hikes in prices not only that but he said tv money would be used on transfers instead of putting down the prices, no money has been spent on player transfers and prices have gone up.

For a man like Kroenke, Wenger is a dream come true

[Niall_Quinn]

Welbeck will be back by Christmas not April!

https://twitter.com/Arsenal/status/766395235261779969

Like a new signing!

Like Jack kept coming back? And Santi? And all the others? It's bullshit. They are lying bastards. We won't see sign of him come Christmas. This is all so they can prep us for another season without a striker.

[IBK]

Wenger isn't a specialist in failure, he's a specialist in mediocrity. The opposite of maureen, which is of course a good thing in many ways but not in terms of the results that are delivered. You'll watch maureen on a rollercoaster, champion one minute, sacked the next. Wenger though, he'll just endure. Same shit, over and over and over. No highs, no lows, just a flatline. A slow, lingering, suffocating blandness that annihilates joy or excitement or anticipation or any of the emotions that would attract you to sport in the first place.

Couldn't agree more. :gp:

[Bumble]

Couldn't agree more. :gp:

are we mediocre though? we finish in the top 5% of Professional football teams in England. If anyone of us were in the top 5% of our profession wouldn't we be happy.

the issue is the repetitiveness of it all and not learning from our mistakes. we will finish top 4 regardless of if it was sign any more players or not.

[Goonermerree]

I don't think we'll finish top four this year. As for being mediocre, we aren't in one respect, but we are in terms of challenging for trophies, especially the League and the CL. We finished second last year, but who can honestly say that finishing second was anything to be proud of? We were out of the title race weeks before the end of the season and, god hate them, Spuds should have finished second but they imploded.

[Power n Glory]

are we mediocre though? we finish in the top 5% of Professional football teams in England. If anyone of us were in the top 5% of our profession wouldn't we be happy.

the issue is the repetitiveness of it all and not learning from our mistakes. we will finish top 4 regardless of if it was sign any more players or not.

I can agree with that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I can agree with that.

Yeah that's pretty much where i am as well

[Letters]

are we mediocre though? we finish in the top 5% of Professional football teams in England. If anyone of us were in the top 5% of our profession wouldn't we be happy.

the issue is the repetitiveness of it all and not learning from our mistakes. we will finish top 4 regardless of if it was sign any more players or not.
No, of course we're not mediocre. We finished 2nd last season ffs and that was our first season in 3 without a trophy.
This is why I think the abuse of Wenger is OTT. He's hardly got us relegated. We all saw what Moyes did at Utd, for all his faults Wenger is much better than people like that.
But what Wenger has done, and continues to do, is to not maximise our considerable resources. There were signs that was was starting to change his policy in the transfer market with Ozil then Sanchez but last summer he didn't sign anyone of note (Cech was a good signing, to be fair, but we all knew we needed a striker) and it cost us. I think he tried to get someone better than Giroud but he failed. And he's had all summer to fix that and failed again. Once again he's left us short and it will cost us again.

Wenger deserves credit for raising our expectations to the point where the last 3 seasons have seemed disappointing, and for getting us into a position where we can compete financially, but it's increasingly clear he's not able to take us on from there and properly compete in the modern game.

[Niall_Quinn]

are we mediocre though? we finish in the top 5% of Professional football teams in England. If anyone of us were in the top 5% of our profession wouldn't we be happy.

the issue is the repetitiveness of it all and not learning from our mistakes. we will finish top 4 regardless of if it was sign any more players or not.

Yes, about as mediocre as it is possible to be. We should be competing every year for titles, given the resources available to this club. But we don't push, we aren't ambitious, we'll do the bare minimum rather that the absolute maximum we are capable of. We do not strive for success, we settle for second best. By every measure we are ordinary, average, mediocre, unimpressive, uninspiring. Finishing second in the league doesn't mask the fact. We finished second to Leicester, a team that performed way above expectations and a team that showed everyone what is possible when you throw everything you have got at the challenge. If we'd have done the same we'd have walked the title. Because our closest rivals, in terms of financial muscle, were also ordinary, average, mediocre, does not elevate us to a higher standing. We still let ourselves down badly. We still failed to do all we could do to win. And it really does keep coming back to one man. Mr Mediocre himself. The ayatollah of average, the master of mediocrity.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh, and we play shit football. We aren't good enough to be even mediocre in that respect.

[fakeyank]

PnG and HCZ.. quit the tension and just get a room.

:rolleyes:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

PnG and HCZ.. quit the tension and just get a room.

:rolleyes:

Don't get jealous just because that type of thing is illegal where you come from

[Power n Glory]

PnG and HCZ.. quit the tension and just get a room.

:rolleyes:

Go suck goatballs, FK.

:lol:

[Letters]

Go suck goatballs, FK.

:lol:

They are a delicacy where he's from tbf.

[fakeyank]

They are a delicacy where he's from tbf.

:drool:

[alexander]

So, another week passes and no sign of any players coming in. Not even much in the way of rumour now.

Its tragic, it really is.

[fakeyank]

Sshhhh.. we are in the waiting period now.

[Özim]

There's been no quality players available all summer, I know other clubs have signed loads of players but that doesn't count and it's not that easy to sign players, it's all about rythm, there's also two markets, one for English clubs and one for clubs in Europe.

There's no movement in the market and not many deals are being done, I think we're just in a waiting period.

[selassie]

I think Wenger's lack of activity in the market is going to really screw us this season, we're going to finish well off the pace IMO, I don't even think we'll get anywhere near top 4 TBH.

[Munchies]

Lacazette scored another 2 tonight :coffee:

[Munchies]

fucking hell.

Wenger loaning out Joel Campbell to Sporting Lisbon apparently

Walcott and Sanogo still here.

Fucking mad!

[KSE Comedy Club]

That's ok.

He has also now told Sky sports news that "Sanchez can be our Suarez"

So looks like a striker isn't coming in then......

[Özim]

fucking hell.

Wenger loaning out Joel Campbell to Sporting Lisbon apparently

Walcott and Sanogo still here.

Fucking mad!

The man is unbearable, ships out the decent players and keeps the dross around for years, that's on top of signing no quality, what a clown.

[Özim]

That's ok.

He has also now told Sky sports news that "Sanchez can be our Suarez"

So looks like a striker isn't coming in then......

Literally everything that comes out of his mouth is a joke, the more he comes out with the more incompetent and stupid he sounds, I hope he gets what's coming to him this season, he's got away with it and been very lucky thus far.

It's almost like he goes out of his way to wind up the fans, rather than just keeping quiet he comes out with more rubbish which has no constructive purpose and if anything makes him even more unpopular.

[Özim]

LeClown:


on whether he needs to sign another forward to help Alexis…
I believe a club like ours is focused on giving chances to the players we develop in our own club. We have a few strikers who have a chance, if we find the right players we buy. But if you ask people 'give me names', you see that it is not that easy - look at a club like Real Madrid, who have they bought? Up front, it is very difficult.

on other options up front…
It is an important season for Theo, because last year he had a difficult period. He can play as a striker and his numbers are excellent when he plays up front, we have Giroud, Alexis, Walcott, Akpom and Sanogo who is still here but is injured at the moment - the players we buy have to be better. Alexis and Walcott have pace, our game is linked with the speed of passing and the speed of movement and you need two."

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20160818/-he-has-similar-qualities-to-suarez-

There's been names people could have given you all summer you clown, the problem is you insist on waiting until 3 weeks into the season at the end of a 3 month summer to identify players!

Who have Madrid bought :lol: they have Ronaldo, Benzema, Rodriguez Bale etc etc and they won the CL last season and if you want to be picky they have Morata back.

[Munchies]

LeClown:



http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20160818/-he-has-similar-qualities-to-suarez-

There's been names people could have given you all summer you clown, the problem is you insist on waiting until 3 weeks into the season at the end of a 3 month summer to identify players!

Who have Madrid bought :lol: they have Ronaldo, Benzema, Rodriguez Bale etc etc and they won the CL last season and if you want to be picky they have Morata back.


Shit like this.... jesus

[Munchies]

The man is unbearable, ships out the decent players and keeps the dross around for years, that's on top of signing no quality, what a clown.

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/760736304661458945/EZb7rLP3_400x400.jpg

[Özim]

Shit like this.... jesus

If he can't find players better than Walcott, Sanogo, Giroud and Akpom, god help us.

[Munchies]

If he can't find players better than Walcott, Sanogo, Giroud and Akpom, god help us.

We can only hope he fucks right off at the end of this season.

Sick of him

[Özim]

We can only hope he fucks right off at the end of this season.

Yeah we can, he's already starting the wind up by saying he doesn't know how Ferguson lives without management, you just get the feeling he'll pat himself on the back for a job well done and award himself a new contract (with pay rise) for his good work.

[fakeyank]

The only way this fuck is leaving the club is on his death bed, and that aint happening for another 20-30 years.

[Munchies]

The only way this fuck is leaving the club is on his death bed, and that aint happening for another 20-30 years.

#WengerOUT will turn to #WengerDIE :lol:

[fakeyank]

:haha:

[Kano]

"Yes, ‘crazy’ for the prices [being quoted],” he said. “At this moment it’s very difficult to buy because, also, if you ask a player of the medium level, a club might ask for £55m. For this reason, it’s a crazy market. It’s very difficult to enter the market with these prices and in this condition.

“I’m not comfortable [paying over the odds]. I don’t like to pay a lot of money. If a player warrants us paying [lots of] money, then it’s right. But for a medium player, it’s right only to pay the right price, not £20m-30m over. That’s not right. The money is not mine, but I don’t like it the same. I don’t find it right.”

.

[Goonermerree]

Eleven days to go and no sign of anyone. :tumbleweed:

[Marc Overmars]

Benteke completes his move to Palace.

[milla]

LeClown:



http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20160818/-he-has-similar-qualities-to-suarez-

There's been names people could have given you all summer you clown, the problem is you insist on waiting until 3 weeks into the season at the end of a 3 month summer to identify players!

Who have Madrid bought :lol: they have Ronaldo, Benzema, Rodriguez Bale etc etc and they won the CL last season and if you want to be picky they have Morata back.

New low Wumger, it is not funny anymore. Plain stupidity :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Benteke completes his move to Palace.

Are you sure? What about the waiting period? And haggling over the fee until the deal collapses?

They haven't a clue how to do this properly.

[Goonermerree]

Are you sure? What about the waiting period? And haggling over the fee until the deal collapses?

They haven't a clue how to do this properly.

They do know, they offered £1.50 above and beyond his asking price.

[radford78]

Just read that Watford have spent more than us so far in this window!!!!!

[GP]

Just read that Watford have spent more than us so far in this window!!!!!

So?

[radford78]

So?

No reason, just found it rather interesting

[GP]

https://gfycat.com/ImpoliteSinfulBuzzard

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

:lol: :lol: Chortle!

[Goonermerree]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10545895/arsene-wenger-hits-back-at-arsenal-critics

He just doesn't get it! And suggesting that Arsenl fans are being influenced by the media for calls for him to spend some money is a bit disingenuous.

[AFC Leveller]

The Sunday supplement have been bang in form today, they seem to echo the fans thoughts about Wenger and the club. John cross, one Wenger's biggest fans, has finnaly lost it and said that the reason we dont get deals over the lineis because of him only, he dithers and waits and waits. all 3 journos agreed that the board simply dont give a fuck/put enough pressure on him to do things and they are still stuck in the past.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10546292/arsene-wenger-has-been-an-absolute-shambles-says-the-daily-mirrors-john-cross

[Niall_Quinn]

The Sunday supplement have been bang in form today, they seem to echo the fans thoughts about Wenger and the club. John cross, one Wenger's biggest fans, has finnaly lost it and said that the reason we dont get deals over the lineis because of him only, he dithers and waits and waits. all 3 journos agreed that the board simply dont give a fuck/put enough pressure on him to do things and they are still stuck in the past.

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10546292/arsene-wenger-has-been-an-absolute-shambles-says-the-daily-mirrors-john-cross

Everyone is trying to explain very simple and very obvious things to Wenger. Not only does he refuse to accept these simple and obvious things, he won't even listen. And he suggests people can't have opinions because they are influenced by the media. But the fans were saying these things long before the media jumped in to agree with what has become self evident. If anything, the media has protected Wenger and allowed him to get away with his bullshit. So of course, given that he lives in a fantasy, Wenger blames the fans for being influenced by the media. What he really means is shit, it was easy to ignore the fans but not so easy to ignore the media.

[AFC Leveller]

Everyone is trying to explain very simple and very obvious things to Wenger. Not only does he refuse to accept these simple and obvious things, he won't even listen. And he suggests people can't have opinions because they are influenced by the media. But the fans were saying these things long before the media jumped in to agree with what has become self evident. If anything, the media has protected Wenger and allowed him to get away with his bullshit. So of course, given that he lives in a fantasy, Wenger blames the fans for being influenced by the media. What he really means is shit, it was easy to ignore the fans but not so easy to ignore the media.

The media have been blind to his mismanagement and negligence for 10 years but this season they have finally caught up and we know when the media are onto you, it gathers pace and you are out of the door before you know it.

The man has become an arrogant dictator who cannot take any kind of criticism or opinion from anybody.

[AFC Leveller]

Campbell on loan to Sporting.

Dont know what this guy needs to do to be taken seriously, he has contributed more than Walcott has in 10 years.

[Goonermerree]

Campbell on loan to Sporting.

Dont know what this guy needs to do to be taken seriously, he has contributed more than Walcott has in 10 years.

Just sell him and let him move on for God's sake.

[Niall_Quinn]

Campbell on loan to Sporting.

Dont know what this guy needs to do to be taken seriously, he has contributed more than Walcott has in 10 years.

Jesus. Campbell out the door and Sanogo being mentioned as a striking option, even though he's injured. It beggars belief then lumbers it with unsustainable debt, locks it in the poor house and throws away the key.

[Power n Glory]

Unbelievable.

[Kano]

Just sell him and let him move on for God's sake.

Probably to make room for Gnabry.

Least he's confirmed we're after Mustafi. Whether we get him or not is a different matter.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Unbelievable.

Probably a rational explanation for it, like he was fucking Wengers daughter

[Goonermerree]

Probably to make room for Gnabry.

Least he's confirmed we're after Mustafi. Whether we get him or not is a different matter.

I thought I read somewhere that Gnabry was going on loan to Herta Berlin. Talking of Gnabry, does he look a lot trimmer now than he used to?

[adzzzbatch]

Probably to make room for Gnabry.

Least he's confirmed we're after Mustafi. Whether we get him or not is a different matter.

Gnabry will probably be on an extended holiday after his Olympic exploits.

[Kano]

I thought I read somewhere that Gnabry was going on loan to Herta Berlin. Talking of Gnabry, does he look a lot trimmer now than he used to?

Wenger said he wanted to get him onto a new contract and keep him at the club for 'a long time' so it looks like he as future here. Trimmer? Not sure. Been a while since I seen him play before recently. Still a similar physique to Ox but had a cracking Olympics.

Adzz, I'd be surprised if he is. He played next to no football last season, so he should be more than fresh to crack on one he's back.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Kind of feel gutted for Campbell. Gave better performances than the Ox and Theo last season and unlike those two, you could tell that he really appreciated and valued the opportunity to play for a club of our stature.

From the club point of view it makes sense as with the English/Homegrown quota, the likes of Iwobi, Ox and Theo were always going to have an advantage over him.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Why can't Wenger join Sporting as well?

Then he could loan Campbell back to us where we need him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why can't Wenger join Sporting as well?

Then he could loan Campbell back to us where we need him.

Sporting only has 200 staff to pay. What would Wenger do with all the spare time?

[fakeyank]

Gnabry will probably be on an extended holiday after his Olympic exploits.

That. Or he will be injured.

[Özim]

Sporting only has 200 staff to pay. What would Wenger do with all the spare time?

Count his money and study the stats so he can plan for his next dozens central midfield signings.

[Niall_Quinn]

The media have been blind to his mismanagement and negligence for 10 years but this season they have finally caught up and we know when the media are onto you, it gathers pace and you are out of the door before you know it.

The man has become an arrogant dictator who cannot take any kind of criticism or opinion from anybody.

Definitely catching up. The fans and the media are starting to head towards the same page.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/brian-reade-column-arsenal-means-8651700

The board won't care. The manager won't care. But the sponsors might.

How about a campaign that requires Wenger to leave within 3 months or else no Arsenal fan will fly Emirates and furthermore will encourage everyone they know to uphold the boycott? I'm sure there are other sponsors that can be targeted likewise. Then the board will develop a keen attention.

[Niall_Quinn]

Count his money and study the stats so he can plan for his next dozens central midfield signings.

I'm waiting for a story to come out that claims Wenger has refused to pay 600 Arsenal employees, stating he has no money left after all the transfer activity.

[fakeyank]

Pressure is getting on the senile goat, and I cannot wait to see this slow moving car crash! Good way to piss on his legacy.

:dance:

[Niall_Quinn]

Part of that legacy is a pile of trophies, the Invincibles and some of the best football ever seen. That's never being written out of the record books. Which makes it all the more sad the bloke is prepared to carry on. What will be the first thing that comes to mind when his name is mentioned in the future? That's what he has to decide now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Definitely catching up. The fans and the media are starting to head towards the same page.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/brian-reade-column-arsenal-means-8651700

The board won't care. The manager won't care. But the sponsors might.

How about a campaign that requires Wenger to leave within 3 months or else no Arsenal fan will fly Emirates and furthermore will encourage everyone they know to uphold the boycott? I'm sure there are other sponsors that can be targeted likewise. Then the board will develop a keen attention.

Brian Reade making the point that I've been making for ages and get slated for, Wenger of course is a prevaricating ninny totally out of touch with the modern game but he's served for a long time as a useful lightning rod for those at the top. I fail to understand how anyone can think it could be any other way and that this old dinosaur is a tyrant who everyone is too afraid to challenge, he is kept on because it's useful for the purposes of Kroenke et al to keep him on.
I think people slam me more of our frustration because they want to believe things will get better when Wenger eventually leaves, but realistically they won't. This is the kind of club we are now, Kroenke is going nowhere and even when he croaks it will pass on to his sons.

[Munchies]

Arsene Wenger warned that Shkodran Mustafi will cost €50m - Guillem Ballague

:lol:

[Letters]

Good way to piss on his legacy.

:dance:
You are weird...
Why would you be happy to see his legacy tarnished further? The things we did in the first half of his time with us, and the style in which we did it, are things I never thought I'd see as an Arsenal fan.
I've said this to you before, read Fever Pitch if you want an idea of what being an Arsenal fan was like in the 70s and 80s.
I don't understand how you (and you are not the only one) can be so bitter.

[Letters]

Part of that legacy is a pile of trophies, the Invincibles and some of the best football ever seen. That's never being written out of the record books. Which makes it all the more sad the bloke is prepared to carry on. What will be the first thing that comes to mind when his name is mentioned in the future? That's what he has to decide now.

Over time people tend to look back with rose tinted glasses and remember the good times.
What do people remember about Clough? It's not that he took Forest down.
People will remember what he did for us, and they should. But he won't go down as one of the all time greats as he could have done.

[Marc Overmars]

His legacy is the stadium so that's pretty much secure. It's just a shame now people will have to mention the fact he went mental at the end of his tenure.

[Power n Glory]

Over time people tend to look back with rose tinted glasses and remember the good times.
What do people remember about Clough? It's not that he took Forest down.
People will remember what he did for us, and they should. But he won't go down as one of the all time greats as he could have done.

True. I’ve already heard PHW being revered after he’s gone even though he was a piece of shit.

[Power n Glory]

His legacy is the stadium so that's pretty much secure. It's just a shame now people will have to mention the fact he went mental at the end of his tenure.

The story Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Or Harvey Dent at the end of Dark Knight.:sulk:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

True. I’ve already heard PHW being revered after he’s gone even though he was a piece of shit.

It's all relative, Hill Wood was an old fart and a relic....a chairman for the days when we were a relatively small club in terms of revenue. Dein was the man he deferred to because he understood the game better than him. The difference is unlike Kroenke, Hill Wood cared about the club it had been part of his family for generations.
I don't know how true this is but my understanding is that Dein was resistant to us moving to a new stadium, I think he felt the money would be better spent on signings. Short termist approach perhaps, but he probably knew that the clubs inate conservative tendencies would prevent it doing what was necessary to make us a dynasty.

[Özim]

Over time people tend to look back with rose tinted glasses and remember the good times.
What do people remember about Clough? It's not that he took Forest down.
People will remember what he did for us, and they should. But he won't go down as one of the all time greats as he could have done.

I would think they will think of him as a fairly slightly above average manager looking at his management record alone.

[Kano]

Over time people tend to look back with rose tinted glasses and remember the good times.
What do people remember about Clough? It's not that he took Forest down.
People will remember what he did for us, and they should. But he won't go down as one of the all time greats as he could have done.
I think that's generally true but the caveat is how long this period carries on for. Clough left immediately after they were relegated and in the years previous to that was still getting to FA and League Cup finals - which we know were a much bigger deal back then. No one can ever take away the glory of the first ten years of Wengers time here and people are sadly bitter if they try to distort what happened with the squad and players at his disposal then. But if he was to carry on for another few years there would be a danger that people would look back and say "Wenger was great, won this, won that, until...". Ideally he needs to knock it on the head after this season to ensure he doesn't begin to damage how people look back on him.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I would think they will think of him as a fairly slightly above average manager looking at his management record alone.

Prepare yourself for a world of disappointment.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Historically a manager is judged by his greatest achievements rather than the totality of his career, for Managers like Ferguson he comes up well whichever way you look at it. Clough on the other hand will always be remembered as the quotable, abrasive, arrogant but charismatic character who achieved something unprecedented with Notts Forest and rightly so.

[Goonermerree]

Arsene Wenger warned that Shkodran Mustafi will cost €50m - Guillem Ballague

:lol:

He wouldn't have cost that much if he'd been looking to strengthen earlier n the transfer window. In my opinion we need to buy a new CB for this season anyway. Per is slowing, Kos can make howlers and we finished Chambers of before he got started. (I really don't know why Chambers hasn't been sent out on loan to learn his craft in a less pressured situation.) I haven't seen enough of Holding to know how good he is. (I do know that he didn't cost 55 mil so he can't be that good :whistle:)

So we're down to 9 days to go before the transfer window closes, so of course anyone we're in for now is going to cost more than they should have. Unless a club desperately needs the money they hang out for more.

[Letters]

I think that's generally true but the caveat is how long this period carries on for. Clough left immediately after they were relegated and in the years previous to that was still getting to FA and League Cup finals - which we know were a much bigger deal back then. No one can ever take away the glory of the first ten years of Wengers time here and people are sadly bitter if they try to distort what happened with the squad and players at his disposal then. But if he was to carry on for another few years there would be a danger that people would look back and say "Wenger was great, won this, won that, until...". Ideally he needs to knock it on the head after this season to ensure he doesn't begin to damage how people look back on him.

The longer it goes on the more damaging it will be but the last 3 years have been:

Won the FA Cup and finished 4th
Retained the FA Cup and finished 3rd.
Finished 2nd.

He's not exactly 'done a Moyes'. The issue is he's not making the most of our considerable resources. The fact I feel we should be competing for the title is down to Wenger, but the fact we're not is too and it's increasingly apparent he's not the man to push us on. In time though his legacy will be appreciated.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

He's going to cost closer to that because Valencia know we're desperate and we have money. Had we moved earlier right when Per got injured it would have been £25 max.

Wenger's dithering once again costing us.

[Power n Glory]

It's all relative, Hill Wood was an old fart and a relic....a chairman for the days when we were a relatively small club in terms of revenue. Dein was the man he deferred to because he understood the game better than him. The difference is unlike Kroenke, Hill Wood cared about the club it had been part of his family for generations.
I don't know how true this is but my understanding is that Dein was resistant to us moving to a new stadium, I think he felt the money would be better spent on signings. Short termist approach perhaps, but he probably knew that the clubs inate conservative tendencies would prevent it doing what was necessary to make us a dynasty.


'Thoroughly ignorant people seem to have a say nowadays.

'It is a few hotheads jumping up and down thinking they are being clever.

'It is the most ridiculous way to behave really because normal people are forever saying boards act too hastily when they get rid of a manager.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2857261/Former-Arsenal-chairman-Peter-Hill-Wood-slams-ignorant-Gunners-fans-turning-Arsene-Wenger.html#ixzz4I3RomNZD
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


:lol: Hill Wood is part of reason why we're in this shit. He booted Dein from the Board, advised the Board to sell their remaining shares to Kroenke once Jabba came on the scene and then Lady Nine and Richard Carr left because of PHW.

He cares for his investment and own survival.

[Letters]

Prepare yourself for a world of disappointment.

I think that's the world he lives in.



Bit like MrsL :cool:

:(

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:lol: Hill Wood is part of reason why we're in this shit. He booted Dein from the Board, advised the Board to sell their remaining shares to Kroenke once Jabba came on the scene and then Lady Nine and Richard Carr left because of PHW.

He cares for his investment and own survival.

Again my point was to look at it relatively, Hill Wood booted Dein from the club because he recommended Kroenke in the first place and Hill Wood refused to countenance giving him a place on the board. Fiszman also sold his shares to KSE before he died, because he mistakenly believed he was doing the right thing because he represented less of a risk to the club's stability than Usmanov.
I think they were wrong to sell their shares but Hill Wood himself owned a very nominal amount of shares and didn't massively financially benefit from Kroenke's majority ownership. Was he the best owner ever, no like i say he was an old Tory fart whose grandfather took on the club as blue chip stock, certainly wasn't open to change said of Kroenke "we don't want his kind here" but compared to an absentee owner who purely looks upon Arsenal as just another asset in his collection, PHW was preferable.

[selassie]

Brian Reade making the point that I've been making for ages and get slated for, Wenger of course is a prevaricating ninny totally out of touch with the modern game but he's served for a long time as a useful lightning rod for those at the top. I fail to understand how anyone can think it could be any other way and that this old dinosaur is a tyrant who everyone is too afraid to challenge, he is kept on because it's useful for the purposes of Kroenke et al to keep him on.
I think people slam me more of our frustration because they want to believe things will get better when Wenger eventually leaves, but realistically they won't. This is the kind of club we are now, Kroenke is going nowhere and even when he croaks it will pass on to his sons.

I personally think it's a bit of both TBH, I think the mess we are in is because both the board and Wenger are in complete agreement over our flawed recruitment policy, it's not just that though is it, Wenger is in complete control of the Technical side so is a "law to himself", it all starts and ends with him, he's in complete control and is questioned by nobody.

In regards to our recruitment policy Wenger isn't forced "not to buy", the issue isn't even that he needs to spend irresponsibly, he just chooses to use this argument as a deflection tactic, it's straw man and quite frankly ridiculous TBH.

No amount of excuse making by Wenger about his reluctance to recruit will wash with me, he's leaving holes in the squad every single season and it's negligent, he's basically not doing his job properly and needs to be called out on it until he addresses it. If he feels buying players like Rob Holding resolves issues in the team/squad then I'm cool with that if these signings deliver and immediately improve our team, but until I/we see tangible evidence that his recruitment policy is successful then people have every right to question him.

I'm actually quite bored of the whole thing, he won't listen, anybody who dares to question his methods is marked down as "stupid" or "easily influenced", we are all wrong to even dare to suggest he should improve the team by paying the "market rate" to buy players who are better than what we have.

Wenger is pretty much on his own crusade with his issues with the market. The market won't change just for him.

[Power n Glory]

Again my point was to look at it relatively, Hill Wood booted Dein from the club because he recommended Kroenke in the first place and Hill Wood refused to countenance giving him a place on the board. Fiszman also sold his shares to KSE before he died, because he mistakenly believed he was doing the right thing because he represented less of a risk to the club's stability than Usmanov.
I think they were wrong to sell their shares but Hill Wood himself owned a very nominal amount of shares and didn't massively financially benefit from Kroenke's majority ownership. Was he the best owner ever, no like i say he was an old Tory fart whose grandfather took on the club as blue chip stock, certainly wasn't open to change said of Kroenke "we don't want his kind here" but compared to an absentee owner who purely looks upon Arsenal as just another asset in his collection, PHW was preferable.

I'm looking at it relatively and PHW sparked our demise.

It goes back to the question of why we built the stadium in the first place and what was the intention? Dein invited Stan so he could invest from the outside and we’d share Wembley stadium instead of building a new one. Why? Maybe he didn’t want to see us suffer for 10 years on the football pitch. I don’t know if that was the smart business move or how that would have worked out but there are footballing reasons behind that. He may have saw what was about to occur.

What were PHW’s reasons for wanting the stadium? Stan has his shares but his association with Dein means he’s frozen out. So the pair go their separate ways. PHW stepped in and welcomed Stan on to the Board. Why and how? Dein called upon Stan to be an outside investor and back the club on the field with his money but now PHW has got in his ear and Stan’s now on the Board after saying he wasn’t welcome. Again, how and why? I suspect the self-sustaining model PHW pitched had Stan skipping and shouting ‘yeeha’ after picturing the money rolling in. I don’t know but I suspect it’s possible.

Why has PHW sat comfortably with the way the club has been run under Kroenke? You have scorn for Stan but nothing for the man that invited him to the house and most likely pitched the idea and vision? Lady Nina has said she regrets selling her shares to Kroenke and wants Dein and Usmanov to run things. Pretty shocking. So she feels mislead and is unhappy about the club but PHW isn’t. Why?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm looking at it relatively and PHW sparked our demise.

It goes back to the question of why we built the stadium in the first place and what was the intention? Dein invited Stan so he could invest from the outside and we’d share Wembley stadium instead of building a new one. Why? Maybe he didn’t want to see us suffer for 10 years on the football pitch. I don’t know if that was the smart business move or how that would have worked out but there are footballing reasons behind that. He may have saw what was about to occur.

What were PHW’s reasons for wanting the stadium? Stan has his shares but his association with Dein means he’s frozen out. So the pair go their separate ways. PHW stepped in and welcomed Stan on to the Board. Why and how? Dein called upon Stan to be an outside investor and back the club on the field with his money but now PHW has got in his ear and Stan’s now on the Board after saying he wasn’t welcome. Again, how and why? I suspect the self-sustaining model PHW pitched had Stan skipping and shouting ‘yeeha’ after picturing the money rolling in. I don’t know but I suspect it’s possible.

Why has PHW sat comfortably with the way the club has been run under Kroenke? You have scorn for Stan but nothing for the man that invited him to the house and most likely pitched the idea and vision? Lady Nina has said she regrets selling her shares to Kroenke and wants Dein and Usmanov to run things. Pretty shocking. So she feels mislead and is unhappy about the club but PHW isn’t. Why?

You do realise Kroenke didn't get involved in Arsenal until 2007 where he bought up shares that were sold by ITV....we'd moved into the Emirates stadium long before Kroenke had any involvement at the club so i don't get the first part of your statement.

Plus would you really want Arsenal playing at Wembley so far away from Islington?. I think it was one of those instances where Dein was wrong. We were right to build the stadium, just think there has been a total failure to build upon it.

PHW has stayed quiet about the state of the club since he stepped aside, so hard to know what he thinks. You seem to think i am defending him, but first of all there is no comparison between him and Kroenke because PHW was never the owner as we never had an owner at Arsenal before Kroenke, and Hill Wood was as i've repeated a remote old fart who was totally out of touch for the modern era of football...but yes on balance i think he had the interests of the club more at heart than Kroenke does, he was a merchant banker so no doubt money was more important to him than football but during the days of Highbury there was at least a connection between him and the manager and the players.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I personally think it's a bit of both TBH, I think the mess we are in is because both the board and Wenger are in complete agreement over our flawed recruitment policy, it's not just that though is it, Wenger is in complete control of the Technical side so is a "law to himself", it all starts and ends with him, he's in complete control and is questioned by nobody.

In regards to our recruitment policy Wenger isn't forced "not to buy", the issue isn't even that he needs to spend irresponsibly, he just chooses to use this argument as a deflection tactic, it's straw man and quite frankly ridiculous TBH.

No amount of excuse making by Wenger about his reluctance to recruit will wash with me, he's leaving holes in the squad every single season and it's negligent, he's basically not doing his job properly and needs to be called out on it until he addresses it. If he feels buying players like Rob Holding resolves issues in the team/squad then I'm cool with that if these signings deliver and immediately improve our team, but until I/we see tangible evidence that his recruitment policy is successful then people have every right to question him.

I'm actually quite bored of the whole thing, he won't listen, anybody who dares to question his methods is marked down as "stupid" or "easily influenced", we are all wrong to even dare to suggest he should improve the team by paying the "market rate" to buy players who are better than what we have.

Wenger is pretty much on his own crusade with his issues with the market. The market won't change just for him.

I don't disagree with anything you have said about Wenger, but that's not the point....he's an employee.....unless he is blackmailing someone to stay in charge he isn't unsackable.....the fact that no-one has looked to get rid of him shows that they are happy with how he's performing and therefore those are the people who are to blame.

[Özim]

Prepare yourself for a world of disappointment.

Why would I need to do that :lol:

[Özim]

:lol: Hill Wood is part of reason why we're in this shit. He booted Dein from the Board, advised the Board to sell their remaining shares to Kroenke once Jabba came on the scene and then Lady Nine and Richard Carr left because of PHW.

He cares for his investment and own survival.

PHW was another horrible little man, I remember people supporting him when I was calling him up for what he was.

We seem to have had a few pompous guys like him at the club who think they are above everyone else.

[Power n Glory]

You do realise Kroenke didn't get involved in Arsenal until 2007 where he bought up shares that were sold by ITV....we'd moved into the Emirates stadium long before Kroenke had any involvement at the club so i don't get the first part of your statement.

Plus would you really want Arsenal playing at Wembley so far away from Islington?. I think it was one of those instances where Dein was wrong. We were right to build the stadium, just think there has been a total failure to build upon it.

PHW has stayed quiet about the state of the club since he stepped aside, so hard to know what he thinks. You seem to think i am defending him, but first of all there is no comparison between him and Kroenke because PHW was never the owner as we never had an owner at Arsenal before Kroenke, and Hill Wood was as i've repeated a remote old fart who was totally out of touch for the modern era of football...but yes on balance i think he had the interests of the club more at heart than Kroenke does, he was a merchant banker so no doubt money was more important to him than football but during the days of Highbury there was at least a connection between him and the manager and the players.

Why is 2007 and when Kroenke got involved relevant to my post?

It boils down to two opposing ideologies on Board at Arsenal. Dein wanted outside investment, PHW wanted a self sustaining model. My post above is about how Stan was introduced to the club in the first place and how he's seemed to switch from Dein's agenda over to PHW's.

The Wembley vs Emirates stadium question is irrelevant as well. We don't know how that would have turned out but since you say this club is screwed under current conditions draw your own conclusions.

Is this not a defence of PHW over Stan? :lol: You were making a case that he cared for the club more than Stan. How? Because he inherited it? How does he have the clubs best interest at heart when he's invited Stan to the Board and has no intention of letting Wenger go. He's happy with the way things are run here. That quote I posted was from December 2014. That's after he's stepped aside as Chairmen and he only stepped aside because of health issues.

[Munchies]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqcjjLjWgAAFhi-.jpg

https://twitter.com/ArsenalEmployee/status/767621459594317824

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why is 2007 and when Kroenke got involved relevant to my post?

It boils down to two opposing ideologies on Board at Arsenal. Dein wanted outside investment, PHW wanted a self sustaining model. My post above is about how Stan was introduced to the club in the first place and how he's seemed to switch from Dein's agenda over to PHW's.

The Wembley vs Emirates stadium question is irrelevant as well. We don't know how that would have turned out but since you say this club is screwed under current conditions draw your own conclusions.

Is this not a defence of PHW over Stan? :lol: You were making a case that he cared for the club more than Stan. How? Because he inherited it? How does he have the clubs best interest at heart when he's invited Stan to the Board and has no intention of letting Wenger go. He's happy with the way things are run here. That quote I posted was from December 2014. That's after he's stepped aside as Chairmen and he only stepped aside because of health issues.

I don't necessarily think Dein was ever opposed to the self-sustainability model....even when seeking outside investment i don't think he was looking for a sugar daddy who would make all our signings for us, he was looking for someone to give us the means to expand and Kroenke certainly didn't change his mind as that is always how he's run sporting enterprises.

The point i am making is that Hill Wood was wrong to persuade the board to sell to Kroenke and his attitude about it now obviously shows that he is still out of touch, but the point is as chairman he had a demonstrably more hands on relationship with the club than the current majority share holder. I never denied it was a defence of Hill Wood over Kroenke it's abundantly clear that whilst i am not overly fond of either of them, i prefer the former to the latter.

Again a hypothetical, but do you think Kroenke would have cared enough to remove Bruce Rioch from his job for not being ambitious enough?

A lot of people thought the stadium was the way forward and in that sense Dein was the one dissenting voice, were all of those individuals...including Ken Friar, Danny Fiszman et all just totally obsessed with money?.

"Dein invited Stan so he could invest from the outside and we’d share Wembley stadium instead of building a new one"

Those are your words which suggests that Kroenke's involvement pre-dates the move to the Emirates, i was thinking unless you knew something i didn't that, that was an error on your part.

[Goonermerree]

'Valencia say Mustafi will not be sold this transfer window and is in the side for tonight's first La Liga game of the season.' Sky

Trying to make sure they get top dollar or are we looking for somebody else?

[Özim]

Historically a manager is judged by his greatest achievements rather than the totality of his career, for Managers like Ferguson he comes up well whichever way you look at it. Clough on the other hand will always be remembered as the quotable, abrasive, arrogant but charismatic character who achieved something unprecedented with Notts Forest and rightly so.

His career achievements aren't all that great overall, yes 3 PL titles is good, but no success in Europe, never defending the PL in a career spanning 20 years.

Clough at least won the European cup which is the ultimate prize for any club.

For me though his management ability has really been shown up in the last decade, to the point you can actually start to question whether what he achieved at the beginning was circumstances tinged with luck.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

>Using comic sans font in an official resignation letter

No wonder they're working in the Arsenal store, assuming the letter is even real which I probably doubt.

Not to defend Wenger but the "600 employees" quote is starting to be taken extremely out of context, comically so. There's plenty to have a go at him without resorting to such silliness of grandstanding.

[Özim]

'Valencia say Mustafi will not be sold this transfer window and is in the side for tonight's first La Liga game of the season.' Sky

Trying to make sure they get top dollar or are we looking for somebody else?

Could be that we're sh*t at signing players, well except for unknowns and kids that is.

[Özim]

>Using comic sans font in an official resignation letter

No wonder they're working in the Arsenal store, assuming the letter is even real which I probably doubt.

Not to defend Wenger but the "600 employees" quote is starting to be taken extremely out of context, comically so. There's plenty to have a go at him without resorting to such silliness of grandstanding.

There can be no suitable context for the 600 employees comment, it's a ridiculous comment that should never have been made bearing in mind the scenario.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

His career achievements aren't all that great overall, yes 3 PL titles is good, but no success in Europe, never defending the PL in a career spanning 20 years.

Clough at least won the European cup which is the ultimate prize for any club.

For me though his management ability has really been shown up in the last decade, to the point you can actually start to question whether what he achieved at the beginning was circumstances tinged with luck.

Every managerial success is dependent on a degree of circumstance and luck, at the time when he was successful he was one of the best managers in the business and now he's a has been and is totally out of touch with the modern game. If you feel the need to totally de construct his achievements as manager to fit your current narrative that's up to you, i think the majority of fans are more likely to see things from my point of view that he was a top manager for us once, and was a stabilising figure whilst we were trying to keep at a certain level with a constrained budget, but that time has passed and he is no longer able to push us on and is still entrenched and arrogant to acknowledge that.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

BT Sports Hack: "Does it matter if players are overpriced, in a game where billions are being poured in? Does it really matter?"

Wenger: "What matters to me is if you have a club with 600 employees, that you can pay them at the end of the month. That is important for me."


Now from the actual context, it's clearly not Arsene saying we're not spending money because we need to pay our employees. The actual message is closer to it doesn't matter if you are overspending as long as you spend within your means. Where the ability to pay big fees and still have enough to pay employees is the sign that you're spending within your means. It's a sad state of affair now that people have such emotional responses to quotes but don't bother to explore the context surrounding them. I'm of the opinion Arsene should step down but I have enough for the man to not take his quotes out of context.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

>Using comic sans font in an official resignation letter

No wonder they're working in the Arsenal store, assuming the letter is even real which I probably doubt.

Not to defend Wenger but the "600 employees" quote is starting to be taken extremely out of context, comically so. There's plenty to have a go at him without resorting to such silliness of grandstanding.

There is no context to them, it's like much of what Wenger says attacking a straw man. No fan wants us to live beyond our means, no fan is interested in spending money for the sake of spending money. And it's a bit of a joke talking about paying 600 employees when many aren't paid the London living wage which is just pure greed.

[Özim]

BT Sports Hack: "Does it matter if players are overpriced, in a game where billions are being poured in? Does it really matter?"

Wenger: "What matters to me is if you have a club with 600 employees, that you can pay them at the end of the month. That is important for me."


Now from the actual context, it's clearly not Arsene saying we're not spending money because we need to pay our employees. The actual message is closer to it doesn't matter if you are overspending as long as you spend within your means. Where the ability to pay big fees and still have enough to pay employees is the sign that you're spending within your means. It's a sad state of affair now that people have such emotional responses to quotes but don't bother to explore the context surrounding them. I'm of the opinion Arsene should step down but I have enough for the man to not take his quotes out of context.

Like I said though, he didn't have to say that, he wasn't answering the question, in addition we have plenty of money to pay our 600 employees, even if we overpaid, you don't hear any other managers coming out with nonsense like this.

It's frankly a ridiculous answer, the question was very valid, there's billions being poured in (and we get more than our fair share), so the fact players are more expensive is covered by that, we paid our employees even before the big new deal with TV.

Let's not overlook the face he's vastly overpaid for the job he's doing.

[Özim]

Every managerial success is dependent on a degree of circumstance and luck, at the time when he was successful he was one of the best managers in the business and now he's a has been and is totally out of touch with the modern game. If you feel the need to totally de construct his achievements as manager to fit your current narrative that's up to you, i think the majority of fans are more likely to see things from my point of view that he was a top manager for us once, and was a stabilising figure whilst we were trying to keep at a certain level with a constrained budget, but that time has passed and he is no longer able to push us on and is still entrenched and arrogant to acknowledge that.

Maybe maybe not, plenty will remember him for the bulk of his career where he's really not done a good job and been dishonest and arrogant, his days of success are a long time ago now, it's becoming hard to really remember things vividly.

[Goonermerree]

'Valencia say Mustafi will not be sold this transfer window and is in the side for tonight's first La Liga game of the season.' Sky

Trying to make sure they get top dollar or are we looking for somebody else?

Edit: Don't know if that's changed or if I mis- read it, but it says unless Arsenal meet the buy-out cause of 43 mil

[Letters]

BT Sports Hack: "Does it matter if players are overpriced, in a game where billions are being poured in? Does it really matter?"

Wenger: "What matters to me is if you have a club with 600 employees, that you can pay them at the end of the month. That is important for me."


Now from the actual context, it's clearly not Arsene saying we're not spending money because we need to pay our employees. The actual message is closer to it doesn't matter if you are overspending as long as you spend within your means. Where the ability to pay big fees and still have enough to pay employees is the sign that you're spending within your means. It's a sad state of affair now that people have such emotional responses to quotes but don't bother to explore the context surrounding them. I'm of the opinion Arsene should step down but I have enough for the man to not take his quotes out of context.
Some people are desperate to attack everything he says or does and are even trying their best to deconstruct and discredit his legacy.
All seems very odd.
We finished 2nd last year and it was the first season in 3 without a trophy. The level of vitriol from some - which seems to be bitter and personal in nature - is bizarre.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe maybe not, plenty will remember him for the bulk of his career where he's really not done a good job and been dishonest and arrogant, his days of success are a long time ago now, it's becoming hard to really remember things vividly.

The point is people don't remember what Clough didn't achieve between 1981 and 1993, they remember the title win for Forest and the two european cup wins

What they will remember about Wenger is the three title wins, the great football and the move to the Emirates.

Unless we get relegated or go into administration whilst he's manager, i think the frustration with his stubborn, arrogant behaviour will disappear in the fullness of time after he's gone.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Some people are desperate to attack everything he says or does and are even trying their best to deconstruct and discredit his legacy.
All seems very odd.
We finished 2nd last year and it was the first season in 3 without a trophy. The level of vitriol from some - which seems to be bitter and personal in nature - is bizarre.

We finished ten points behind Leicester Letters, and we have a manager who has consistently taken us into seasons unprepared and acts like fans are spoilt children or stupid to question what is remarkable incompetence.

I don't get myself cross over everything he says, but to try and defend the ridiculous post match comments after Leicester...sorry pal you are going to be urinating into the wind.

[Letters]

We finished ten points behind Leicester Letters, and we have a manager who has consistently taken us into seasons unprepared and acts like fans are spoilt children or stupid to question what is remarkable incompetence.

I don't get myself cross over everything he says, but to try and defend the ridiculous post match comments after Leicester...sorry pal you are going to be urinating into the wind.

Not defending anything. Just commenting on the weird and seemingly personal nature of some people's vitriol towards him. They act like a bitter ex. And cue one of them saying that I defend everything he does like he's a personal friend but that's a lazy straw man which they know isn't true. FY has said he actually hates Wenger and above was clearly relishing the prospect of things getting worse and worse for him. Bizarre...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not defending anything. Just commenting on the weird and seemingly personal nature of some people's vitriol towards him. They act like a bitter ex. And cue one of them saying that I defend everything he does like he's a personal friend but that's a lazy straw man which they know isn't true. FY has said he actually hates Wenger and above was clearly relishing the prospect of things getting worse and worse for him. Bizarre...

Why do you care so much? Fakeyanks comments are patently ridiculous and childish and frankly laughable.....taking umbrage to them only gives them the kind of analysis they are undeserving of.

[fakeyank]

You are weird...
Why would you be happy to see his legacy tarnished further? The things we did in the first half of his time with us, and the style in which we did it, are things I never thought I'd see as an Arsenal fan.
I've said this to you before, read Fever Pitch if you want an idea of what being an Arsenal fan was like in the 70s and 80s.
I don't understand how you (and you are not the only one) can be so bitter.

I am happy because I am sick and tired of him. I loved this guy.. trust me I did. My dislike comes from the extreme sadness I have with how he has completely gone rogue and gone to bed with the criminals (board). Up until a couple of years ago, all I thought was that he was just stubborn in his ways and was out of touch with how modern day tactics and team management worked. However in the last couple of years, he has had plenty of statements which show that he is with the board in fleecing the fans.

You can say that the board is ultimately responsible in who stays as manager, and you would be right. However my expectation from Wenger was that he was going to be 'for the fans' and fighting to do what was best for us to succeed in football. And if he were to face challenges from the board in doing the 'right thing', he would revolt or just resign in protest. What is happening is the opposite.. he is coming out with bizzare statements about paying for 600 employees and buying a reporter for 45m. I dont think he has 'lost it' or gone crazy. He along with the board are laughing at us peasants. And I hate him for that.

To put it in terms of American politics, its like seeing Bernie Sanders join forces with Trump.

[Letters]

I just find it odd, disturbing even.

[Power n Glory]

I don't necessarily think Dein was ever opposed to the self-sustainability model....even when seeking outside investment i don't think he was looking for a sugar daddy who would make all our signings for us, he was looking for someone to give us the means to expand and Kroenke certainly didn't change his mind as that is always how he's run sporting enterprises.

The point i am making is that Hill Wood was wrong to persuade the board to sell to Kroenke and his attitude about it now obviously shows that he is still out of touch, but the point is as chairman he had a demonstrably more hands on relationship with the club than the current majority share holder. I never denied it was a defence of Hill Wood over Kroenke it's abundantly clear that whilst i am not overly fond of either of them, i prefer the former to the latter.

Again a hypothetical, but do you think Kroenke would have cared enough to remove Bruce Rioch from his job for not being ambitious enough?

A lot of people thought the stadium was the way forward and in that sense Dein was the one dissenting voice, were all of those individuals...including Ken Friar, Danny Fiszman et all just totally obsessed with money?.

"Dein invited Stan so he could invest from the outside and we’d share Wembley stadium instead of building a new one"

Those are your words which suggests that Kroenke's involvement pre-dates the move to the Emirates, i was thinking unless you knew something i didn't that, that was an error on your part.

The idea Dein had for foreign investment predates the Emirates. That's what that means. He wasn't for this current model.

As for that hypotehical scenerio, I don't know. Wenger is only here because of David Dein so take Dein out of the equation, we might have still had Rioch.

[selassie]

I don't disagree with anything you have said about Wenger, but that's not the point....he's an employee.....unless he is blackmailing someone to stay in charge he isn't unsackable.....the fact that no-one has looked to get rid of him shows that they are happy with how he's performing and therefore those are the people who are to blame.

Oh I agree with you Herb, I do find myself agreeing with a lot of your posts. The thing is Wenger is totally involved in this scam, he's pretty much built himself a niche position from within the club, post David Dein and the changing of hands on the board, Wenger for quite a while had two roles to juggle. Gazidis is obviously on board now and has the Dein role whilst being completely "hands off" from the "technical" side as Wenger likes to point out.

Wenger more or less hired Gazidis and as such with the board would have been completely involved in the job spec for Gazidis, from what I understand, Wenger's role is such that he is in charge of the "technical" side of things, the football decisions start and end with him so in some ways he is unsackable. How can they (board) even question him if he has this role where he is left to do as he pleases?

[Power n Glory]

BT Sports Hack: "Does it matter if players are overpriced, in a game where billions are being poured in? Does it really matter?"

Wenger: "What matters to me is if you have a club with 600 employees, that you can pay them at the end of the month. That is important for me."


Now from the actual context, it's clearly not Arsene saying we're not spending money because we need to pay our employees. The actual message is closer to it doesn't matter if you are overspending as long as you spend within your means. Where the ability to pay big fees and still have enough to pay employees is the sign that you're spending within your means. It's a sad state of affair now that people have such emotional responses to quotes but don't bother to explore the context surrounding them. I'm of the opinion Arsene should step down but I have enough for the man to not take his quotes out of context.

Even in context it’s a silly statement.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The idea Dein had for foreign investment predates the Emirates. That's what that means. He wasn't for this current model.

As for that hypotehical scenerio, I don't know. Wenger is only here because of David Dein so take Dein out of the equation, we might have still had Rioch.

We could get into an area of infinite regression, without Hill Wood we wouldn't have Dein.

There is no doubt that getting rid of Rioch was Deins decision, but Hill Wood didn't prevent him from taking it....I think Gazidis would not offer Wenger a new contract if there was no Kroenke.

[Letters]

I dont think he has 'lost it' or gone crazy. He along with the board are laughing at us peasants. And I hate him for that.
I guess that makes sense if you think that.
I don't think he's gone crazy OR is joining the board in laughing at us.
I just think the game has moved on and a combinations of stubbornness and a misguided (although partially understandable) ideology means he's no longer able to compete at the very top of the game.
But I do think he at least cares how we do - I don't think the board could care less so long as the money keeps rolling in.

[fakeyank]

Not defending anything. Just commenting on the weird and seemingly personal nature of some people's vitriol towards him. They act like a bitter ex. And cue one of them saying that I defend everything he does like he's a personal friend but that's a lazy straw man which they know isn't true. FY has said he actually hates Wenger and above was clearly relishing the prospect of things getting worse and worse for him. Bizarre...

Arsenal is personal to me. I dont mean to say what football or supporting the club should mean to someone else, but I find my club very personal to me. So yes, my vitriol and hate will be personal as well. I would love it if Wenger would just get fired by the board after a run of bad results or if he did the right thing and realized he is way past it. However, we know thats not going to happen. The only way I can see him out of the club is when it gets ugly and worse for him. Then ugly and worse is what I hope happens.

[selassie]

I guess that makes sense if you think that.
I don't think he's gone crazy OR is joining the board in laughing at us.
I just think the game has moved on and a combinations of stubbornness and a misguided (although partially understandable) ideology means he's no longer able to compete at the very top of the game.
But I do think he at least cares how we do - I don't think the board could care less so long as the money keeps rolling in.

If he cared he wouldn't leave us so unprepared going into every season, he only cares about himself and trying to win "HIS WAY". If he really cared and wanted to win he would do what is necessary and that certainly doesn't mean bankrupting the club or spending 55million on a CB.

He doesn't even have a ideology TBH, he's all over the place with his comments in the media and his actions regarding the squad and his recruitment policy don't follow any semblance of logic IMO, he's a "law to himself", he just does what he wants and treats Arsenal F.C. like some personal project.

Of course the board are to blame too, as long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a hoot what Wenger is or is not doing.

[Power n Glory]

We could get into an area of infinite regression, without Hill Wood we wouldn't have Dein.

There is no doubt that getting rid of Rioch was Deins decision, but Hill Wood didn't prevent him from taking it....I think Gazidis would not offer Wenger a new contract if there was no Kroenke.

Let's not ignore the fact that PHW is happy with the job Wenger is doing and seems happy with Stan also. That's the whole point to this. He was chairman before Kroenke was on Board and gave Wenger more responsibility and power once he fired David Dein. He's just as culpable as Stan Kroenke. You argue Stan and co need to intervene and wrestle power away from Wenger, force his hand, whilst ignoring the man who gave him that power in the first place and appears to have done nothing to reel him in.

[fakeyank]

If he cared he wouldn't leave us so unprepared going into every season, he only cares about himself and trying to win "HIS WAY". If he really cared and wanted to win he would do what is necessary and that certainly doesn't mean bankrupting the club or spending 55million on a CB.

He doesn't even have a ideology TBH, he's all over the place with his comments in the media and his actions regarding the squad and his recruitment policy don't follow any semblance of logic IMO, he's a "law to himself", he just does what he wants and treats Arsenal F.C. like some personal project.

Of course the board are to blame too, as long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a hoot what Wenger is or is not doing.

:gp:

[Kano]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CqcjjLjWgAAFhi-.jpg

https://twitter.com/ArsenalEmployee/status/767621459594317824

Even though there is no way in hell that is genuine, I really do wish it was. Then all his mates could laugh at him for quitting a job with no back up.

[Kano]

If he cared he wouldn't leave us so unprepared going into every season, he only cares about himself and trying to win "HIS WAY". If he really cared and wanted to win he would do what is necessary and that certainly doesn't mean bankrupting the club or spending 55million on a CB.

He doesn't even have a ideology TBH, he's all over the place with his comments in the media and his actions regarding the squad and his recruitment policy don't follow any semblance of logic IMO, he's a "law to himself", he just does what he wants and treats Arsenal F.C. like some personal project.

Of course the board are to blame too, as long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a hoot what Wenger is or is not doing.
Of course he cares. The disconnect comes from he deems as sufficient enough to do a successful job - or even what he deems as success now. As far as he is concerned, he is doing what is necessary to be successful. But nearly all of us - on this small fan board - see it differently.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Let's not ignore the fact that PHW is happy with the job Wenger is doing and seems happy with Stan also. That's the whole point to this. He was chairman before Kroenke was on Board and gave Wenger more responsibility and power once he fired David Dein. He's just as culpable as Stan Kroenke. You argue Stan and co need to intervene and wrestle power away from Wenger, force his hand, whilst ignoring the man who gave him that power in the first place and appears to have done nothing to reel him in.

The difference is that Hill Wood had Dein who could persuade or encourage Wenger to be more bold, i don't think Gazidis has that same influence or is allowed to exert it.

The difference is whatever you or I think of Hill Wood, for most of the time when he was chairman the manager was accountable and had the appropriate level of support, and the malaise and laissez faire attitude that he seemed to be fond of has been institutionalised under Kroenke.

The probability is that things were better because of Dein, because he was Wenger's boss in more than name only unlike Gazidis. And it is abundantly clear that Gazidis cannot function in that role because of Kroenke.

In many ways it's a similar argument to who was the worst Labour leader out of the current one Corbyn or Ed Milliband, now in many ways you could argue Milliband was just as bad because he facilitated the change of Labour leadership contest rules that allowed Corbyn to become leader because of the ongoing battle between the party and Len McCluskey.
But in practice Milliband didn't create the same schism in the Labour party that Corbyn and his cronies have created, allowing the party to be held hostage to the whims of people many of whom didn't even vote Labour at the last election (although I'll leave it at that because I'll have NQ on my case, and as much as i respect his opinions it's almost impossible to debate with someone who is coming at things from such a totally different angle).