Ozil - Do we need him?

[Power n Glory]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of Ozil checking out early for the season and looking for the exit but do we really want him here if that’s the case? I’m usually on side with the players when it comes to this sort of issue but not in this case. I don’t think Ozil has done anything to warrant such high praise.

People point to what he did last season as proof of his quality but I’m still not convinced. After Christmas he checked out for the rest of the season. When I compare that purple patch/run of good form with other players, such as Ramsey 2013/14 season (34 games, 16 goals, 10 assists) or even Theo’s run (43 games, 21 goals, 16 assists), I’d take either of those guys replicating that form over Ozil’s 45 games, 8 goals and 20 assists.

Maybe he’s hung over from the Euros and needs to get up to speed but it’s disheartening to see us play games without Giroud and have all out pace up front and he’s not threading anyone through. His influence on the game has to extend beyond one decent pass. The chances he’s creating aren’t even killer through balls that sets us up with chance after chance. Heck, against Southampton the stats will say he created 4 chances but not one of those were clear cut one on ones. I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves. He’s not essential and I’ll have to see a massive improvement to think otherwise.

[Niall_Quinn]

He didn't check out for the rest of the season. Wenger went 100% negative, that's what fucked our season. Dull, repetitive, predictable, static, slow boreball. A player with Ozil's talents is wasted in a set up like that. Same for Alexis. When we lost Santi, the player on which Wenger's comaball is loaded, the manager pulled up the drawbridge and opted to scrape out the bare minimum in the most negative manner we've seen since the days of Don Howe. All our opponents crashed around us an we floated, lifeless, to a 2nd place finish that would be inconceivable under normal circumstances. In some ways our 2nd place finish was more miraculous than Leicester's title win. Quality players like Ozil and Alexis must have been horrified at the whole embarrassing spectacle of it.

Weren't you the guy who spoke up for RvC and the understanding you had for his situation? A quality player stuck in a zero ambition environment probably labouring under a whole heap of Wenger's lies and false promises? Well here we are again then. What has changed since RvC fucked off? Nothing at all. We've always had at least some quality at the club, lured in on the reputation of a manager that had delivered the Invincibles. Well the gap between then and now is lengthening season by grinding season and the myth is being exposed. Pretty soon, and we already started to see it with the last transfer window, we won't be able to fool the big players into coming here. Hell, we couldn't even con Vardy into making the switch. You may get your wish and soon. Ozil will be gone and we'll be stuck with Walcott. How you can possibly see that as a good thing is incredible.

[Power n Glory]

There is a huge difference between RVC and Ozil. One is a player we could do with right now. Even with Wenger trying his best to botch things up, I'd never doubt RVP's effort or contribution. Ozil - he's not essential. As said, I'd take 2013 Ramsey or 2012 Walcott over last seasons Ozil.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We get that you are not a fan of Ozil, and additional to that he has not played well the last couple of games

But i'd say look at when he came on against Leicester and against Watford, and i think he is pivotal to us in an attacking sense. I think it's abundantly clear that when Ozil is not playing well it tends to nullify our attacking potency. And if he is surplus to requirements than it would necessitate us playing in a completely different way.

I'm going to be honest with you, it's your opinion and your entitled to it but i don't think whether 2013 Ramsey or 2012 Walcott was better doesn't even merit discussion to me. I think Ramsey's performances in 2013/2014 were in many ways complimented by having Ozil in the side. And Walcott was scoring goals in 2012/2013 but it's hard to say he was playing well (well he was probably playing well by his limited standards).

I am going to agree with NQ, if we are not getting the best out of a great player like Ozil it's because the limiting effect of having a manager like Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil isn't a great player. He's just as marginal for Germany as he is for us. He's a good player but far from great or pivotal.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is a huge difference between RVC and Ozil. One is a player we could do with right now. Even with Wenger trying his best to botch things up, I'd never doubt RVP's effort or contribution. Ozil - he's not essential. As said, I'd take 2013 Ramsey or 2012 Walcott over last seasons Ozil.

We have 3 essential players as things stand, possibly 5 if you go a bit wider to encompass more of Wenger's basic failings. The 3 are Santi, who is by far our most important player (but with a major caveat), and Ozil and Alexis because they are the players who can rise above the general drudgery of our current system with moments of individual brilliance that can swing a game or allow us back into a game that otherwise would be beyond us.

The huge caveat with Santi is his effectiveness at being able to drag something out of Wengerball, a system that would by its very nature fail in this league were it not for the almost unique talents of the poor sod who is tasked with somehow making it work. Whether Santi would be as important in a sane system, I have a feeling we'll never know. Perhaps yes, because he's a two-footed, quick-witted and talented player regardless.

One instance, the third goal against Watford. A rare glimpse of real footballing talent from two key players who also help to pull the club out of the Wengerball depths from time to time. Not always, because Wengerball is a dead weight, but sometimes and sometimes at key times. It makes a difference over the course of a season. The players are human too. They, just like the fans, must scratch their heads at the manager's antics. They surely also realise we could do so much better with a coherent system and a little planning and organisation - the very basics at others teams but alien in a Wenger culture. So I guess being at Arsenal for them is not just about performing on the pitch but also keeping the enthusiasm afloat so they avoid being crushed by the inevitability of it all. Very much like the fans, we know where we will fail, we know when, we know how it will happen and why. And the one man who can do something about it, well we know he won't do a thing. I'd be deeply resentful under such conditions. In many ways it's a testament to the players that they continue to strive for a different outcome, offset of course by the huge rewards they get just for turning up. As fans we expect them to give 100%, but we must also realise that it may be 110, 120% they need to deliver as a baseline in order to compensate for the drag Wenger places on every aspect of our game.

The other 2 are Kos and Cech, unfortunates (relatively speaking) who must try to make head or tail of Wenger's shambolic and longstanding ideas related to the defence. RvC did his stint too, the guy expected to carry the ambitions of the fans and the crushing weight of the manager's incompetence. Because he got the stick the ball in the net he made a bigger splash than Ozil makes with each decisive pass, or each carefully engineered assist. You claim Ozil's assists are low quality. Even if that were true, so what? Better than taking the ball and then looking to lay it back or tap it harmlessly sideways. Don't underestimate a player that remembers where the goal is and what the point of the game is. If we lose him then no way is this club chasing the big player and spending the big money to replace him. In fact, no way is that big player coming here regardless.

It is Sooooooooo vital for Wenger to fuck off at the end of this season. Wait and see how much will change if that happens. Otherwise, we're done as a top club. Three more years of this fool and we won't have to worry about needing or not needing players like Ozil because there simply won't be any players of that calibre here, or wanting to come here.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ozil isn't a great player. He's just as marginal for Germany as he is for us. He's a good player but far from great or pivotal.

Again your opinion, i don't think a simply "good" player has the vision and ability to find a player with a pass the way Ozil does.....by far the most technically gifted and intelligent reader of the game that we have at the club.

It's one of the only things in a footballing sense i agree with Jose Mourinho about.

[Letters]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10283851/arsenals-mesut-ozil-tops-premier-league-assists-chart-with-19

And that was WITH our fairly mediocre strikers. I saw games last year where he spent all game putting them on a plate and they kept missing them.

[Power n Glory]

We have 3 essential players as things stand, possibly 5 if you go a bit wider to encompass more of Wenger's basic failings. The 3 are Santi, who is by far our most important player (but with a major caveat), and Ozil and Alexis because they are the players who can rise above the general drudgery of our current system with moments of individual brilliance that can swing a game or allow us back into a game that otherwise would be beyond us.

The huge caveat with Santi is his effectiveness at being able to drag something out of Wengerball, a system that would by its very nature fail in this league were it not for the almost unique talents of the poor sod who is tasked with somehow making it work. Whether Santi would be as important in a sane system, I have a feeling we'll never know. Perhaps yes, because he's a two-footed, quick-witted and talented player regardless.

One instance, the third goal against Watford. A rare glimpse of real footballing talent from two key players who also help to pull the club out of the Wengerball depths from time to time. Not always, because Wengerball is a dead weight, but sometimes and sometimes at key times. It makes a difference over the course of a season. The players are human too. They, just like the fans, must scratch their heads at the manager's antics. They surely also realise we could do so much better with a coherent system and a little planning and organisation - the very basics at others teams but alien in a Wenger culture. So I guess being at Arsenal for them is not just about performing on the pitch but also keeping the enthusiasm afloat so they avoid being crushed by the inevitability of it all. Very much like the fans, we know where we will fail, we know when, we know how it will happen and why. And the one man who can do something about it, well we know he won't do a thing. I'd be deeply resentful under such conditions. In many ways it's a testament to the players that they continue to strive for a different outcome, offset of course by the huge rewards they get just for turning up. As fans we expect them to give 100%, but we must also realise that it may be 110, 120% they need to deliver as a baseline in order to compensate for the drag Wenger places on every aspect of our game.

The other 2 are Kos and Cech, unfortunates (relatively speaking) who must try to make head or tail of Wenger's shambolic and longstanding ideas related to the defence. RvC did his stint too, the guy expected to carry the ambitions of the fans and the crushing weight of the manager's incompetence. Because he got the stick the ball in the net he made a bigger splash than Ozil makes with each decisive pass, or each carefully engineered assist. You claim Ozil's assists are low quality. Even if that were true, so what? Better than taking the ball and then looking to lay it back or tap it harmlessly sideways. Don't underestimate a player that remembers where the goal is and what the point of the game is. If we lose him then no way is this club chasing the big player and spending the big money to replace him. In fact, no way is that big player coming here regardless.

It is Sooooooooo vital for Wenger to fuck off at the end of this season. Wait and see how much will change if that happens. Otherwise, we're done as a top club. Three more years of this fool and we won't have to worry about needing or not needing players like Ozil because there simply won't be any players of that calibre here, or wanting to come here.

I agree with Cech and Kos being essential and then it’s Sacnhez. The rest, too many variables need to be in place for them to be considered essential. Santi is close but I believe Elneny is really good at keeping the ball moving and recycling play. If we throw Xhaka into the mix, we have a really good pairing because he’s supposed to have that same ability but an even better passer with variety.
Ozil essential ? Not to me. He is the epitome of what you hate most about Arsenal. Endless low risk passing for percentages. He rarely takes risks with his passes, it’s usually direct to feet when he sets someone up and not a crafty ball played into space and he hardly ever shoots when the opportunity is there. But that’s not all. His game depends on too many variables.
If the two deeper CM’s playing behind him are struggling to pass the ball and being pressed, he can’t influence the game. He can’t impose himself to help them out and keep the play ticking over. Hence why we’re calling for Xhaka to play yesterday.
Also, he can’t play with a striker like Giroud. The partnership doesn’t work. Giroud isn’t quick or mobile enough to get on the end of a through ball. Ozil doesn’t have the drive or tenacity to make use of Giroud’s knock downs and quick one twos that creates space and shooting opportunities for a more mobile attacking player. If it’s not Ozil crossing to Giroud, it’s like the pair cancel each other out. So one of them has to hit the bench.
But seeing how Giroud has been benched and we’re playing games with more mobile attackers and looking just as toothless, it’s a real worry. We all said Ozil needs runners in front of him and that’s what he’s getting. Maybe it’s just a case of time and adjustment, but I ‘m starting to come around to Henry’s idea of Giroud being played with someone like Sanchez behind him. Even Perez. Which means Ozil has to make way. I don’t think he’s that good and would take Kevin De Bruyne over him right now. He has to step his game up and it can’t all be blamed on Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

Again your opinion, i don't think a simply "good" player has the vision and ability to find a player with a pass the way Ozil does.....by far the most technically gifted and intelligent reader of the game that we have at the club.

It's one of the only things in a footballing sense i agree with Jose Mourinho about.

I believe Jose was pulling a robe a dope and overstating Ozil’s importance just to further push the point about Wenger’s incompetency. The way Mourinho plays, someone like Ozil is perfect. Counter attacks and quick transitions. For us, we need someone more relentless in that role.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/10283851/arsenals-mesut-ozil-tops-premier-league-assists-chart-with-19

And that was WITH our fairly mediocre strikers. I saw games last year where he spent all game putting them on a plate and they kept missing them.

On a plate? As clear cut as the chances Cavani missed? I recall a lot of missed headers but nothing defence splitting where we missed sitters. He's far far away from Bergkamp's level and I'd say he's not even as good as Cesc.

When Henry described Bergkamp having the ability to put the ball in your path with the correct pace so you're not breaking a stride, on your stronger side so you're set up on your strong foot or so the ball is away from the defender.....I remember the same being described about Cesc's passing. I rarely see that from Ozil. Maybe it's because we don't have the type of players or we're having to operate with less space. I don't know. But it's rare for me to see a pass from Ozil that has me blown away.

Heck, thing of that Bergkamp assist to Freddie against Juve. It's even more sublime when I hear Dennis describe what he was doing and buying time for Freddie to make that run.

[Marc Overmars]

I said last night that although he mainly had a stinker, he picked out Iwobi with a great cut back which of course led to Alexis scoring. I don't think we have another player who would have found that pass, most of the time it would have been a hopeful cross into the box.

No doubting Ozil is a bit of an enigma but I'd say we definitely need him. Only way I'd contemplate moving him on is if I was confident we'd land a worldie or 2. Which isn't going to happen.

[Power n Glory]

I said last night that although he mainly had a stinker, he picked out Iwobi with a great cut back which of course led to Alexis scoring. I don't think we have another player who would have found that pass, most of the time it would have been a hopeful cross into the box.

No doubting Ozil is a bit of an enigma but I'd say we definitely need him. Only way I'd contemplate moving him on is if I was confident we'd land a worldie or 2. Which isn't going to happen.

It's a good accurate ball to feet pass. But those are the sort of chances I mean. It still depends heavily on someone controlling the ball and getting the shot off with markers around. It's not the sort of pass that takes the defenders out of the equation and the goal at our mercy. That one moment can't justify his selection.

[Marc Overmars]

It's a good accurate ball to feet pass. But those are the sort of chances I mean. It still depends heavily on someone controlling the ball and getting the shot off with markers around. It's not the sort of pass that takes the defenders out of the equation and the goal at our mercy. That one moment can't justify his selection.

It's the vision he provides though. He'll attempt passes that may well take a defence out of the game, which is what happened with that cut back last night.

I'm not one to crow about assists because as you say a lot still depends on the player scoring. Might be an easy pass but a difficult finish, hard pass and an easy finish etc.

The chances created stat is why I think Ozil is key, not the assists alone.

[Power n Glory]

It's the vision he provides though. He'll attempt passes that may well take a defence out of the game, which is what happened with that cut back last night.

I'm not one to crow about assists because as you say a lot still depends on the player scoring. Might be an easy pass but a difficult finish, hard pass and an easy finish etc.

The chances created stat is why I think Ozil is key, not the assists alone.

The chances he creates are often crosses and cut back. He created 4 chances against Southampton but nothing defining and that's the problem with that stat.

For me, if playing Sanchez or Perez alongside Giroud enables us to break down teams and score more goals, Ozil has to make way. I think we're left with no where else to go if playing a quicker striker up front leads to nowhere. I think we'll end up going back to Giroud if stays like this which is a road to nowhere.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I believe Jose was pulling a robe a dope and overstating Ozil’s importance just to further push the point about Wenger’s incompetency. The way Mourinho plays, someone like Ozil is perfect. Counter attacks and quick transitions. For us, we need someone more relentless in that role.

Whilst that kind of thing is totally what Mourinho does, the remarks he made were in response to the criticism Ozil received from english commentary team when playing for Germany in the world cup....saying they were expecting him to play a role that wasn't his.

Although i have long argued that Arsenal should revert to a more counter attacking style of play, i think Ozil's ability to pick out a pass that can completley cut out a defence, a vision to find players that few others can....i think that works whatever style is played.

The difference is in this current system he becomes over relied on, and when he doesn't perform well it has a detrimental effect on the whole attack.

[Letters]

On a plate? As clear cut as the chances Cavani missed? I recall a lot of missed headers but nothing defence splitting where we missed sitters. He's far far away from Bergkamp's level and I'd say he's not even as good as Cesc.

When Henry described Bergkamp having the ability to put the ball in your path with the correct pace so you're not breaking a stride, on your stronger side so you're set up on your strong foot or so the ball is away from the defender.....I remember the same being described about Cesc's passing. I rarely see that from Ozil. Maybe it's because we don't have the type of players or we're having to operate with less space. I don't know. But it's rare for me to see a pass from Ozil that has me blown away.

Heck, thing of that Bergkamp assist to Freddie against Juve. It's even more sublime when I hear Dennis describe what he was doing and buying time for Freddie to make that run.

Comparisons to other players are irrelevant. OK, he's not as good as Bergkamp but comparing him to one of our best ever players is not helpful.
The thread title is do we need Ozil.
He was our top assister last year and, even with our fairly middling strikers he was top assister in the PL.
So yes, of course we need him.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Don't even know why he is comparing him to Bergkamp, that's not even comparing Apples and Oranges that's comparing Apples and House Bricks

Fabregas again, i think Wenger ball came about as a way of facilitating Fabregas in the team, Fabregas was excellent at picking out players with passes but a) ultimately was always playing with better players in front of him than Ozil does and b) Fabregas was always a bit too fond of the sideways pass and passing when there was not a pass on for the sake of it for my liking.

I repeat again there are so few players about that have the ability and vision to find players with passing that Ozil does, to ability to kill a defence even when he is crowded out and back to goal with one pass to a player who has the intelligence to read it.

[Goonermerree]

Ask not do we need Ozil, but does Ozil need us? His heart doesn't seem in it for us.

[Power n Glory]

Comparisons to other players are irrelevant. OK, he's not as good as Bergkamp but comparing him to one of our best ever players is not helpful.
The thread title is do we need Ozil.
He was our top assister last year and, even with our fairly middling strikers he was top assister in the PL.
So yes, of course we need him.

I refer to other players so there is a clear definition of what we're talking about in terms of quality chances being created. I mentioned Cesc also. Heck, we didn't create anything one to what was created for Cavani last night and I don't know if that was down to our lax defending or just poor application from the players.

I also compare his good run last season to what we've seen from past players. Was it a one off because we've seen it happen before. Can we expect Ozil to produce at that level again?

[Power n Glory]

Whilst that kind of thing is totally what Mourinho does, the remarks he made were in response to the criticism Ozil received from english commentary team when playing for Germany in the world cup....saying they were expecting him to play a role that wasn't his.

Although i have long argued that Arsenal should revert to a more counter attacking style of play, i think Ozil's ability to pick out a pass that can completley cut out a defence, a vision to find players that few others can....i think that works whatever style is played.

The difference is in this current system he becomes over relied on, and when he doesn't perform well it has a detrimental effect on the whole attack.

Isn't that why we have Xhaka? The pass to cut out 3 or 4 defenders sounds like something a CM should do. I think there is a difference between that and creating a clear cut goal scoring opportunity.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No Xhaka is there to actually make it possible to instigate an attack if we win the ball back in our own half, Xhaka does not get that far forward generally.

What i will say about Xhaka is having him in the side will most likely also bring out the best in Ozil

A central midfield trio of Xhaka, Elneny and Ozil.....i think that would work a treat.

That's not to impugn a player like Cazorla, i think there are definite games where he is needed for us but at 31 i think last night showed that it's not a good idea to play him twice in one week.

[Letters]

I also compare his good run last season to what we've seen from past players. Was it a one off because we've seen it happen before. Can we expect Ozil to produce at that level again?
I'm sure I read that his assist stats over the last 5 or 6 years or so are the best in Europe so yes, it wasn't a one off.
I have no idea why you're so desperate to downplay Ozil's contribution.

[Power n Glory]

I'm sure I read that his assist stats over the last 5 or 6 years or so are the best in Europe so yes, it wasn't a one off.
I have no idea why you're so desperate to downplay Ozil's contribution.

Because he's not that good.

Again, do you think he'll produce the same as he did last season and if he does, what good will it be if we don't have enough goal scorers on the pitch?

[Goonermerree]

Because he's not that good.

Again, do you think he'll produce the same as he did last season and if he does, what good will it be if we don't have enough goal scorers on the pitch?

That's not his fault, he can only do what he can do! I think that's why he's become a tad disinterested, lack of chances he makes put away. We had the most chances created trophy last season...

[Letters]

Because he's not that good.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZfmY9-VS3cw/UjZRH75jPqI/AAAAAAAAAN4/95cQ_RJG6mg/s1600/Untitled.png

[Power n Glory]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZfmY9-VS3cw/UjZRH75jPqI/AAAAAAAAAN4/95cQ_RJG6mg/s1600/Untitled.png

:good:

But will those assist lead us to the title in CL? No. He's a good player but not the one we need.

[Power n Glory]

That's not his fault, he can only do what he can do! I think that's why he's become a tad disinterested, lack of chances he makes put away. We had the most chances created trophy last season...

For sure. Which is why I question his place in the team. Plenty of teams have adapted a two man up front system. They don't use a number 10. It might be time for a radical change if this season goes south like the others.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think we all have our pet dislikes in the squad, mine has consistently been Aaron Ramsey (although throw Ospina in for good measure)

It's fair to say In the case of P n G that player is Ozil, one of our longest arguments was about Ozil. I am arguably biased myself but on the other end of the spectrum, Ozil is far and away my favourite Arsenal player (used to be Tomas Rosicky) the amount of games I've watched high up in the stands where he's opened up the defence like a skeleton key by finding a pass that only with the benefit of aerial advantage that I could see was on.

I don't always agree with NQ but I think he's spot on here, if we can't make the best use of a player of Ozils calibre than its a damning inditement on the manager and contributes to why he looks so disinterested at times.

[Goonermerree]

For sure. Which is why I question his place in the team. Plenty of teams have adapted a two man up front system. They don't use a number 10. It might be time for a radical change if this season goes south like the others.

I'd say we should keep Ozil, but find a player who knows where the net is on an instinctive and regular basis. However, I don't think Ozil wants to be with us judging by his body language. How long has he got left on his contract?

[Letters]

:good:

But will those assist lead us to the title in CL? No. He's a good player but not the one we need.

Did Bergkamp's? Did Henry?
Bullshit argument.

[Niall_Quinn]

Because he's not that good.

Again, do you think he'll produce the same as he did last season and if he does, what good will it be if we don't have enough goal scorers on the pitch?

This is a bizarre question. Whose fault is it if we don't have enough goalscorers on the pitch? Whose fault if we have static forwards who stroll inside? Whose fault if we have players that constantly check back instead of push and go?

Our tactics, such as they are, reek and the idiot who insists we play to the strengths of opposing defences is 100% to blame. Did you see the PSG front men attacking as a 3 last night? We NEVER do that any more and yet it was one of our greatest strengths. All because we have an idiot in charge. And a coward. And a cheapskate who's not even competent at being a cheapskate because he's spent big buying yet another second tier striker when we had the money to buy that one marquee player who could have opened up all sorts of possibilities for the likes of Ozil, Santi, Alexis. Same with Welbeck. Decent enough. Second tier. Unwanted by the big clubs so he'll do for us. Is that Ozil's fault too? Is it down to Ozil to make Welbeck a better striking option? And if so, why is it Wenger managing the team and not Ozil?

You're blaming Ozil because he can't carry the whole game himself, every game. Because he can't compensate for the lack of pace and movement ahead of him. Because he can't force the players around him to be ambitious as opposed to conservative. Yet you are happy with Elneny, another second tier player, albeit a decent squad addition. Ozil is on a different planet to these second stringers. If we lose him and we lose Alexis and replace them him another Elneny or Perez or one of the other cheap options we favour we are not just fucked on the pitch, we are fucked off it too because what will it say about this club?

I get the opening post. If Ozil is done with us now then that's a problem. That's an issue with his professionalism though, not his talent. Fair enough, if he's not prepared to put in 100% in every game then maybe we need to think the unthinkable because there's little to be gained from forcing a key player to remain against his will. But if what we are actually seeing is a playmaker struggling to make the play in a team set up to do anything but play then let's at least target fire at the idiot who calls the shots.

[Power n Glory]

Did Bergkamp's? Did Henry?
Bullshit argument.

:lol: Well that's a great rebuttal.

What's Bergkamp or Henry got to do with what the team needs now? Today?

Second, the quality of Bergkamp's and Henry's play was on another level and they made a significant impact on the team.

[Niall_Quinn]

:good:

But will those assist lead us to the title in CL? No. He's a good player but not the one we need.

Name one player that we could realistically bring in to replace him. Remember, Wenger has shown time and time and time again he will absolutely not compete at the top of the transfer window. So let's rule out once in a lifetime alignment of the constellations and bizarre twists in circumstances and timings that might see Messi end up here. Let's assume Wenger has to go out and compete for the signature of a player of Ozil's calibre - on the back of Ozil having left the club. And Alexis might be heading out too, thus making the biggest pitch we have remaining the London nightclub scene, because we won't pay the top wages either remember.

Who are you bringing in?

You know what and who the real problem is. That's the person who has to go before we can either extract everything that Ozil can offer or realistically compete for a top tier replacement.

[Power n Glory]

I think we all have our pet dislikes in the squad, mine has consistently been Aaron Ramsey (although throw Ospina in for good measure)

It's fair to say In the case of P n G that player is Ozil, one of our longest arguments was about Ozil. I am arguably biased myself but on the other end of the spectrum, Ozil is far and away my favourite Arsenal player (used to be Tomas Rosicky) the amount of games I've watched high up in the stands where he's opened up the defence like a skeleton key by finding a pass that only with the benefit of aerial advantage that I could see was on.

I don't always agree with NQ but I think he's spot on here, if we can't make the best use of a player of Ozils calibre than its a damning inditement on the manager and contributes to why he looks so disinterested at times.

It's not even a case of dislikes. It's about effectiveness. I dislike Giroud but I’m objective enough to say he has strengths that we don’t play to. With Ozil, how much more can we play to his strength? It goes back to needing to sign a top striker like Aubameyang or Griezmann which isn’t going to happen.

[Power n Glory]

Name one player that we could realistically bring in to replace him. Remember, Wenger has shown time and time and time again he will absolutely not compete at the top of the transfer window. So let's rule out once in a lifetime alignment of the constellations and bizarre twists in circumstances and timings that might see Messi end up here. Let's assume Wenger has to go out and compete for the signature of a player of Ozil's calibre - on the back of Ozil having left the club. And Alexis might be heading out too, thus making the biggest pitch we have remaining the London nightclub scene, because we won't pay the top wages either remember.

Who are you bringing in?

You know what and who the real problem is. That's the person who has to go before we can either extract everything that Ozil can offer or realistically compete for a top tier replacement.

Realistically, what will it take to get the best out of Ozil? What do we need besides a new manager?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's not even a case of dislikes. It's about effectiveness. I dislike Giroud but I’m objective enough to say he has strengths that we don’t play to. With Ozil, how much more can we play to his strength? It goes back to needing to sign a top striker like Aubameyang or Griezmann which isn’t going to happen.

I think he's playing to our weaknesses rather than us playing to his strengths, the passes he's able to make considering the lack of space afforded to him by the slowness of our build up play is remarkable. If our build up play was quicker (which I think it would be by having Xhaka behind him as it means he receives the ball quicker affords him even more space, which if we employ pace on the flanks and a striker who can read the game) he would be phenomenal

If we a bit more direct going forward I've no doubt he'd be better still, but still think despite our limitations as a side the guy stands out more often than not. And really considering the amount of chaff we have in the side currently he is bottom of the pile when it comes to player problems.

[Letters]

:lol: Well that's a great rebuttal.

What's Bergkamp or Henry got to do with what the team needs now? Today?

Second, the quality of Bergkamp's and Henry's play was on another level and they made a significant impact on the team.
You're the one who started comparing him to Bergkamp :shrug:
And you're saying that the PL's leading assister for last season isn't making a significant impact on the team?
And I've already produced the stats to show it wasn't a one off.

We get it, you don't like Ozil much for some bizarre reason. I don't like Ronaldo but I can't sensibly deny his talent. Stop being silly. He was the PL's leading assister last season, he is (or was, but he won't be far off) Europe's leading assister since 2010. And you're saying he's not that good? Behave.

[Niall_Quinn]

Realistically, what will it take to get the best out of Ozil? What do we need besides a new manager?

A different manager. Pretty much anyone will do, I mean not your Brendan Rodgers but anyone from competent through above average and on to decent. Pick one and you automatically get more out of every player because we'd be going out on the pitch drilled and with tactics and a gameplan suited to the opponent. In-game changes, sane rotational policies, team selections that hadn't come straight from the looney bin. All of these things would be an immediate benefit to every player in the squad. The we could settle down and look at really complex stuff that Wenger used to get before he went senile. Stuff like, if we pick pacy forwards then play a game built around pace up top.

This is where we absolutely must start before anything else can happen. It has become a complete waste of time talking about Arsenal and football in the same breath if that conversation hasn't been prefixed by Wenger Out!

[Niall_Quinn]

I think he's playing to our weaknesses rather than us playing to his strengths, the passes he's able to make considering the lack of space afforded to him by the slowness of our build up play is remarkable. If our build up play was quicker (which I think it would be by having Xhaka behind him as it means he receives the ball quicker affords him even more space, which if we employ pace on the flanks and a striker who can read the game) he would be phenomenal

If we a bit more direct going forward I've no doubt he'd be better still, but still think despite our limitations as a side the guy stands out more often than not. And really considering the amount of chaff we have in the side currently he is bottom of the pile when it comes to player problems.

Exactly. We're criticising Ozil for being immersed in shit and failing to come up smelling of roses.

[Ernesto]

On a plate? As clear cut as the chances Cavani missed? I recall a lot of missed headers but nothing defence splitting where we missed sitters. He's far far away from Bergkamp's level and I'd say he's not even as good as Cesc.

When Henry described Bergkamp having the ability to put the ball in your path with the correct pace so you're not breaking a stride, on your stronger side so you're set up on your strong foot or so the ball is away from the defender.....I remember the same being described about Cesc's passing. I rarely see that from Ozil. Maybe it's because we don't have the type of players or we're having to operate with less space. I don't know. But it's rare for me to see a pass from Ozil that has me blown away.

Heck, thing of that Bergkamp assist to Freddie against Juve. It's even more sublime when I hear Dennis describe what he was doing and buying time for Freddie to make that run.

Bergkamp 's pass for Vieira in that game at Stamford Bridge during our invincible season :bow:

Ozil is definitely a player we need for a 38 game season. However, I can somewhat understand the frustration of PnG. We expect more. We want to see those marauding runs he made for Germany in world cups gone by. We don't want to see him go missing in games against the likes of Chelsea, bayern and Barcelona. Even Manchester United this season, I'm guessing.

Watch this space

[Power n Glory]

You're the one who started comparing him to Bergkamp :shrug:
And you're saying that the PL's leading assister for last season isn't making a significant impact on the team?
And I've already produced the stats to show it wasn't a one off.

We get it, you don't like Ozil much for some bizarre reason. I don't like Ronaldo but I can't sensibly deny his talent. Stop being silly. He was the PL's leading assister last season, he is (or was, but he won't be far off) Europe's leading assister since 2010. And you're saying he's not that good? Behave.

This season.

Do you think 20 assists will make a difference to this season?

The Bergkamp example was about comparing assists and what I consider to be a defence spitting chance to Ozil's cut back to Iwobi.

You've produced stats from the previous seasons. It goes back to whether he'd produce the same this season and whether that's enough to make a signicant impact on our style of play. I don't care if he wins the PL top assists award. I'd be happier if that produced something tangible for the whole squad at the end of the season.

[Penguin]

Realistically, what will it take to get the best out of Ozil? What do we need besides a new manager?

A decent striker, more/better movement in front of him, feeding the ball to Ozil quicker when we win it back.

I'm not making any excuses for Ozil's performances this season, which have stunk, but we're handicapping him with our tactics and have done so since he joined. If you put him in that invincibles team in place of Bergkamp (who I do rate as a better player) he would thrive. He would get shitloads more assists playing in Henry. If you need any proof look at his assist record for Real, where he consistently out assisted Xavi and Iniesta. As a number 10 there's not muich better.

I can see the argument for replacing him for a second striker or someone who puts in more of a shift but I don't think that would make that much of a difference. Whoever comes in will struggle with our rotten system.

[Power n Glory]

A different manager. Pretty much anyone will do, I mean not your Brendan Rodgers but anyone from competent through above average and on to decent. Pick one and you automatically get more out of every player because we'd be going out on the pitch drilled and with tactics and a gameplan suited to the opponent. In-game changes, sane rotational policies, team selections that hadn't come straight from the looney bin. All of these things would be an immediate benefit to every player in the squad. The we could settle down and look at really complex stuff that Wenger used to get before he went senile. Stuff like, if we pick pacy forwards then play a game built around pace up top.

This is where we absolutely must start before anything else can happen. It has become a complete waste of time talking about Arsenal and football in the same breath if that conversation hasn't been prefixed by Wenger Out!

Besides a different manager, NQ. I said besides a different manager. :lol: But we can entertain that. If we signed Simeone, would Ozil still play as a number 10? Bear in mind he plays a 2 strikers up front and no number 10.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's not even beyond Wenger to get more out of him, I think Xhaka playing will mean he will get the ball quicker.

[GP]

It's not even beyond Wenger to get more out of him, I think Xhaka playing will mean he will get the ball quicker.

Yes, I think when Lucas is fully integrated he'll give him more to work with as well.

[Power n Glory]

Bergkamp 's pass for Vieira in that game at Stamford Bridge during our invincible season :bow:

Ozil is definitely a player we need for a 38 game season. However, I can somewhat understand the frustration of PnG. We expect more. We want to see those marauding runs he made for Germany in world cups gone by. We don't want to see him go missing in games against the likes of Chelsea, bayern and Barcelona. Even Manchester United this season, I'm guessing.

Watch this space

Dennis was the man! Ozil is frustrating because I feel like he could contribute a lot more with his skillset. When I watch him play, I often think he plays more like a CM rather than a AM. We can only hope he pushes on this season.

[Letters]

This season.

Do you think 20 assists will make a difference to this season?
Do I think 20 goals will make a difference this season. Well yes, of course. Do I think it will by the difference between winning the league and not?
No, but our failure to win the league this season is nothing to do with Ozil, it's because we don't have a top striker.
Ozil is one of the most effective players in his position in the world. Our problems lie elsewhere.
It's a bit like blaming the head waiter on The Titanic for it sinking.

[Goonermerree]

Bergkamp had the best back four and goalie in England behind him and later, Pires, Henry, Viera and Llungberg who would have been on the same page as him.. Different times.

[Power n Glory]

Bergkamp had the best back four and goalie in England behind him and later, Pires, Henry, Viera and Llungberg who would have been on the same page as him.. Different times.

Different times but I’m more so comparing the quality in assists and chances created. It’s not even exclusive to Bergkamp because I’m also comparing the way PSG were able to open us up last night. It’s not about the achievements.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Dennis was the man! Ozil is frustrating because I feel like he could contribute a lot more with his skillset. When I watch him play, I often think he plays more like a CM rather than a AM. We can only hope he pushes on this season.

He is more of a central midfielder than an attacking midfielder in terms of goalscoring, just at the same time occupies a more advanced position than someone like Xhaka.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Different times but I’m more so comparing the quality in assists and chances created. It’s not even exclusive to Bergkamp because I’m also comparing the way PSG were able to open us up last night. It’s not about the achievements.

Which was more to do with Cazorla and Coquelin, the former was closed down virtually out of the game, and the other just was often too far forward and lost any willingness to make tackles after an early yellow card.

[Power n Glory]

Do I think 20 goals will make a difference this season. Well yes, of course. Do I think it will by the difference between winning the league and not?
No, but our failure to win the league this season is nothing to do with Ozil, it's because we don't have a top striker.
Ozil is one of the most effective players in his position in the world. Our problems lie elsewhere.
It's a bit like blaming the head waiter on The Titanic for it sinking.

How many teams use a number 10 and is Ozil as effective as Payet or Kevin De Bruyne?

[Penguin]

The quality of the assists don't matter as long as he keeps making them. But he is capable of picking out superb passes if the movement is there. Like the one for Alexis against Reading in the FA cup, or the one for Alexis against Leicester last season, or the one for Alexis against Watford a couple of weeks ago. I'm noticing a pattern there :lol:

Doesn't help that Sanchez and Theo are the only two players who actively look to make runs in behind. Someone like Lewandowski would love to have Ozil behind him.

[mastermind84]

What an idiotic thread.

His assists declined last season in the second half because we had no finishers. His chance creation numbers were pretty much the same.

The football aptitude of this forum can be embarrassing sometimes.

Even last night, he created the chance that lead to the goal. But his head is gone apparently. So effing stupid. You been on an anti-Ozil agenda for a while too.

[mastermind84]

Ozil isn't a great player. He's just as marginal for Germany as he is for us. He's a good player but far from great or pivotal.
effing hell this is stupid, lol.

[mastermind84]

Doesn't help that Sanchez and Theo are the only two players who actively look to make runs in behind.

Only Theo makes runs behind. Sanchez does not.

[Power n Glory]

What an idiotic thread.

That's good to know because the idea came from a couple of the discussions I've had with you. ;) With Xhaka in the squad you once said we could play Ramsey and Wilshere as the trio. So it leaves the question of where do we play Ozil?

Looking at PSG last night, they didn't play with a number 10 but 3 CMs. Similar to what you've suggested in the past. I'm not really a fan of 3 flat CM's in the middle but more so in favour of what Henry said about Giroud playing with a strike partner behind him. That could work, but again, where does that leave Ozil?

[Penguin]

What an idiotic thread.

His assists declined last season in the second half because we had no finishers. His chance creation numbers were pretty much the same.

The football aptitude of this forum can be embarrassing sometimes.

Even last night, he created the chance that lead to the goal. But his head is gone apparently. So effing stupid. You been on an anti-Ozil agenda for a while too.

It's a valid thread with good points brought forward on both sides. The only thing embarrassing is your post.


Only Theo makes runs behind. Sanchez does not.

Except when he does, like for those three goals I mentioned?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think in the debate/argument call it what you will that was had earlier in the year De Bruyne was mooted and I don't see why, if you are looking at Ozil to be an attacking midfielder in that mould then you are destined to be disappointed.
But he's never been that type of player, and if you're saying we should have that kind of player instead of Ozil well that's up to you but I don't think it would work in our system and would if anything actually make our play more compressed.

What we really lack as well as a striker is better options on the flanks as well as a central midfielder who is a pacier version of Aaron Ramsey.....although he minced about the pitch like Charles Hawtrey last night I think Adrien Rabiot would be exactly that kind of player.

[Power n Glory]

The quality of the assists don't matter as long as he keeps making them. But he is capable of picking out superb passes if the movement is there. Like the one for Alexis against Reading in the FA cup, or the one for Alexis against Leicester last season, or the one for Alexis against Watford a couple of weeks ago. I'm noticing a pattern there :lol:

Doesn't help that Sanchez and Theo are the only two players who actively look to make runs in behind. Someone like Lewandowski would love to have Ozil behind him.

We definitely could do with a top quality striker like Lewandowski but once again we're in this position. I blame Wenger to an extent but there aren't many players like Lewandowski on the market. I look at Atletico and Dortmund a day they had to convert wingers into strikers to get the sort of performances they need so I understand why Wenger is trying Sanchez up front and what attracted him to Perez.

But seeing how everyone is complaining about Sanchez and skeptical of Perez, we don't have many more options on the table. I would have thought Ozil would have thrived off Sanchez or Perez up front. That hasn't been the case but maybe it's early days and we'll come back to this in a few months.

But seeing how we can't rely on the transfer market to bail us out, I wonder what's our next move. If Sanchez and Perez don't work up front, reverting back to Giroud seems like a waste of time unless we try playing Giroud with Perez or Sanchez next to him or slightly behind. Which means no number 10. No ozil in that position anyway. But looking around the globe, how many teams actually play with a number 10?

[Power n Glory]

What an idiotic thread.

His assists declined last season in the second half because we had no finishers. His chance creation numbers were pretty much the same.

The football aptitude of this forum can be embarrassing sometimes.

Even last night, he created the chance that lead to the goal. But his head is gone apparently. So effing stupid. You been on an anti-Ozil agenda for a while too.

Thanks for your contribution Mastermind. Always a pleasure. :good:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We are judging the Perez/Ozil partnership efficacy based on one game. If you are saying to me Perez was isolated because he wasn't being found by Ozil than yes obviously I'd agree with you. Ozil had one of his worst games in an Arsenal shirt on Saturday and he wasn't much better last night. If he continues playing like that, than the question you are posing about him comes into sharper leaf but I would argue that it's more a result of a player who doesn't want to play for us anymore than his overall quality.

Again you'd argue that calls into question his attitude, I think at times his attitude does stink....if we are arguing for a player who gives you muck and bullets performances it's not Ozil. But yes whilst I do think players need to take responsibility, they aren't programmed machines they are adult human beings...if Ozil doesn't up his game after two poor performances his place in the side should be under scrutiny as much as anyone else's.

Where I disagree with you, is that I think last season he was one of the players who had very few poor performances and was arguably let down by the players around him, against Southampton I think the players around him were let down by him....and last night everyone played like a Tosser with the odd exception.

There is always a discussion to be had about getting the best out of players, I just honestly think at the moment anyway in Ozils case it's criticising the colour of the wallpaper when the foundations are crumbling

[Power n Glory]

We are judging the Perez/Ozil partnership efficacy based on one game. If you are saying to me Perez was isolated because he wasn't being found by Ozil than yes obviously I'd agree with you. Ozil had one of his worst games in an Arsenal shirt on Saturday and he wasn't much better last night. If he continues playing like that, than the question you are posing about him comes into sharper leaf but I would argue that it's more a result of a player who doesn't want to play for us anymore than his overall quality.

Again you'd argue that calls into question his attitude, I think at times his attitude does stink....if we are arguing for a player who gives you muck and bullets performances it's not Ozil. But yes whilst I do think players need to take responsibility, they aren't programmed machines they are adult human beings...if Ozil doesn't up his game after two poor performances his place in the side should be under scrutiny as much as anyone else's.

Where I disagree with you, is that I think last season he was one of the players who had very few poor performances and was arguably let down by the players around him, against Southampton I think the players around him were let down by him....and last night everyone played like a Tosser with the odd exception.

There is always a discussion to be had about getting the best out of players, I just honestly think at the moment anyway in Ozils case it's criticising the colour of the wallpaper when the foundations are crumbling

It's really early days for Perez but I'm basing this off Ozil playing with Sanchez as well. It's more so about the type of striker he's playing with. I've always thought he'd flourish off a more mobile striker but I have my doubts. The next few games will tell us more, but without a target man and with the sort of wingers we have, he may have to get used to holding the ball in the final third a little longer since we aren't playing with a target man.

I can't really speculate on what he feels about the club. That's not what this is about. The bad performances may just be down to being tired, it maybe be a case he needs to adjust.... I don't know.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sanchez can't play as a striker he was shit in that position when he had other midfielders play behind him earlier on in the season.

How many times do you see him looking to play centrally, he doesn't...he prefers to drop deep take players on and then sometimes drift into the centre when he's in posession.

Sanchez plays his prefered position of wide forward with a striker playing centrally than you will see the best out of him.

[mastermind84]

It's a valid thread with good points brought forward on both sides. The only thing embarrassing is your post.
when you make a thread asking is Ozil that good and that he is marginal for Arsenal and Germany despite being the main man for both teams, then this thread deserves the stamp of idiotic.


Except when he does, like for those three goals I mentioned?
if Alexis ran behind more, he would have more goals and Ozil would have more assists. He doesnt. Thats why he sucks at striker. He chases the ball too much and doesnt stay advanced.


That's good to know because the idea came from a couple of the discussions I've had with you. ;) With Xhaka in the squad you once said we could play Ramsey and Wilshere as the trio. So it leaves the question of where do we play Ozil?

ive always maintained lets go 433 and put Ozil out wide where he spends most of his time anyway. Its nominally wide, not hugging the touchline wide. Most fans dont see the difference.

To say that Ozil is a marginal player for Arsenal and Germany is one of the most asinine things I have ever read on the internet.

[Power n Glory]

Sanchez can't play as a striker he was shit in that position when he had other midfielders play behind him earlier on in the season.

How many times do you see him looking to play centrally, he doesn't...he prefers to drop deep take players on and then sometimes drift into the centre when he's in posession.

Sanchez plays his prefered position of wide forward with a striker playing centrally than you will see the best out of him.

And you're basing that off a handful of performances as well. Also, it's worth remembering Perez isn't a natural striker and would drift deep or wide when he played. Time will tell whether it's something that can be worked on or if it's the wrong system. Sanchez has played behind the striker for Chile from what I recall and Perez isn't used to playing as lone striker. This is all we have to work with so we shall find out. But as said, I Atletico and Dortmund had convert wide players to wingers and I wonder how long it took for them to adjust. Would they even be the players they are now if given a chance in our system?

[Maestro]

On a plate? As clear cut as the chances Cavani missed? I recall a lot of missed headers but nothing defence splitting where we missed sitters. He's far far away from Bergkamp's level and I'd say he's not even as good as Cesc.

When Henry described Bergkamp having the ability to put the ball in your path with the correct pace so you're not breaking a stride, on your stronger side so you're set up on your strong foot or so the ball is away from the defender.....I remember the same being described about Cesc's passing. I rarely see that from Ozil. Maybe it's because we don't have the type of players or we're having to operate with less space. I don't know. But it's rare for me to see a pass from Ozil that has me blown away.

Heck, thing of that Bergkamp assist to Freddie against Juve. It's even more sublime when I hear Dennis describe what he was doing and buying time for Freddie to make that run.

Really unfair to compare Ozil to a football genius like Bergkamp ........really, really unfair. Ozil is a good quality player but sorry not a patch on Bergkamp imo

[Power n Glory]

Really unfair to compare Ozil to a football genius like Bergkamp ........really, really unfair. Ozil is a good quality player but sorry not a patch on Bergkamp imo

Definitely. He's not great but good. Some people have a problem with me saying that. But I'm more so thinking of the defence splitting passes we'd see from Dennis and even Cesc. I don't see Ozil pulling many of them off which is why I don't pay much attention to that chance creation stat. It's misleading. I don't rate cut backs that highly especially if on the edge of the box and shooting is the better option.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And you're basing that off a handful of performances as well. Also, it's worth remembering Perez isn't a natural striker and would drift deep or wide when he played. Time will tell whether it's something that can be worked on or if it's the wrong system. Sanchez has played behind the striker for Chile from what I recall and Perez isn't used to playing as lone striker. This is all we have to work with so we shall find out. But as said, I Atletico and Dortmund had convert wide players to wingers and I wonder how long it took for them to adjust. Would they even be the players they are now if given a chance in our system?

It's not like playing Walcott up front where sometimes it's hard to know what is his best position, there doesn't seem to be any question with Sanchez, it's not just like he's a striker who drifts from that position when he plays up front it looks every inch that we are playing without a striker, it looked that way last night until Giroud came on.

It's not a criticism of Sanchez, there just doesn't appear to be any indication he can play there and certainly not in a formation with three central midfielders and two wide players.

Could he play behind a second striker? Maybe....but to be honest we give away too much space in the middle of the park with three midfielders in the middle, let alone with two.

To be honest it seems like you are desperate to try incorporating a system in order to not play Ozil.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Definitely. He's not great but good. Some people have a problem with me saying that. But I'm more so thinking of the defence splitting passes we'd see from Dennis and even Cesc. I don't see Ozil pulling many of them off which is why I don't pay much attention to that chance creation stat. It's misleading. I don't rate cut backs that highly especially if on the edge of the box and shooting is the better option.

I don't have a problem with you saying that, it's your opinion I just strongly disagree

[Power n Glory]

I don't have a problem with you saying that, it's your opinion I just strongly disagree

Strongly disagree with what? Him being good but not great? You'd rank him alongside Bergkamp?

[bignev]

Ozil - Do we need him?

Yes. Yes we bloody do!

The only way I would countenance us letting him go is if we had someone more influential lined up to take his place in the team. We're talking Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez level.

Let's be honest though. We're not going to sign that level of player and even if we did there is no way them joining would be contingent on him leaving.

WUM's are everywhere.

/thread

[mastermind84]

Ozil - Do we need him?

Yes. Yes we bloody do!

The only way I would countenance us letting him go is if we had someone more influential lined up to take his place in the team. We're talking Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez level.

Let's be honest though. We're not going to sign that level of player and even if we did there is no way them joining would be contingent on him leaving.

/thread
if we signed a player of that magnitude and they struggled for two games, the same idiots will make a thread called "Messi, do we need him?"

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Strongly disagree with what? Him being good but not great? You'd rank him alongside Bergkamp?

In terms of both being great players who have played for the club yes of course, I wouldn't compare him to Bergkamp as said earlier it's a case of apples and house bricks.

Bergkamp played in a team that a) had more great players in it than Ozil does and b) played under a manager who at the time was revolutionary in his thinking and not dated.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Great players in my view who have played for Arsenal in my lifetime

Ian Wright, Tony Adams, David Seaman, Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira, Dennis Bergkamp, Robert Pires, Sol Campbell, Cesc Fabregas, Robin Van Persie and Mesut Ozil....and if played in the right position I think in time would add Alexis Sanchez to that list

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that both players are far away the two most talented players we have at Arsenal currently

[Niall_Quinn]

Definitely. He's not great but good. Some people have a problem with me saying that. But I'm more so thinking of the defence splitting passes we'd see from Dennis and even Cesc. I don't see Ozil pulling many of them off which is why I don't pay much attention to that chance creation stat. It's misleading. I don't rate cut backs that highly especially if on the edge of the box and shooting is the better option.

What you're not seeing is Ozil playing with Henry and Pires and Freddie and the gang. Instead it's Bif, Walnut, and the square peg, round hole Alexis. Of course there's going to be an immense difference in the end result. But surely don't take from that the idea Ozil is deficient, surely take from it the degree by which the manager has let the general standards at this club fall. Ozil has moved from the pinnacle in Spain to a PL team in shocking decline in terms of quality, but still he delivers the best numbers in Europe. If he's not remarkable in your book then nobody can be, because he tops them all when it comes to doing his job - assisting goal scorers and creating scoring chances. What more can be asked of him? You say he needs to shoot more. Why? What the fuck are our strikers up to if we are relying on our playmaker to do the shooting?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What you're not seeing is Ozil playing with Henry and Pires and Freddie and the gang. Instead it's Bif, Walnut, and the square peg, round hole Alexis. Of course there's going to be an immense difference in the end result. But surely don't take from that the idea Ozil is deficient, surely take from it the degree by which the manager has let the general standards at this club fall. Ozil has moved from the pinnacle in Spain to a PL team in shocking decline in terms of quality, but still he delivers the best numbers in Europe. If he's not remarkable in your book then nobody can be, because he tops them all when it comes to doing his job - assisting goal scorers and creating scoring chances. What more can be asked of him? You say he needs to shoot more. Why? What the fuck are our strikers up to if we are relying on our playmaker to do the shooting?

I wouldn't have added Ljungberg to that personally, I think he would make my list of one of the most overrated players to play for Arsenal

[Niall_Quinn]

Great players in my view who have played for Arsenal in my lifetime

Ian Wright, Tony Adams, David Seaman, Thierry Henry, Patrick Vieira, Dennis Bergkamp, Robert Pires, Sol Campbell, Cesc Fabregas, Robin Van Persie and Mesut Ozil....and if played in the right position I think in time would add Alexis Sanchez to that list

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that both players are far away the two most talented players we have at Arsenal currently

And the ridiculously underrated Gilberto plus, choke, Cashley Cole.

Mind you, I can go back to Liam Brady. Genius. Pat Jennings was a great keeper from a time of great keepers.

[Niall_Quinn]

I wouldn't have added Ljungberg to that personally, I think he would make my list of one of the most overrated players to play for Arsenal

Sorry, but that's almost as silly as suggesting Ozil isn't needed. Freddie was a superb player. His misfortune was he played at a time when we had genuine, world beating legends at the club.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And the ridiculously underrated Gilberto plus, choke, Cashley Cole.

Mind you, I can go back to Liam Brady. Genius. Pat Jennings was a great keeper from a time of great keepers.

Bit before my time that, was born in 83

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sorry, but that's almost as silly as suggesting Ozil isn't needed. Freddie was a superb player. His misfortune was he played at a time when we had genuine, world beating legends at the club.

I'm sorry just don't see it, apart from goals his overall contribution to our game was average

For me in Ramsey I see another Ljungberg, has great little goal scoring patches where he seems indispensable but apart from that you wonder why he's in the team.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Haven't lost with him this season tbf.

[Power n Glory]

It's not like playing Walcott up front where sometimes it's hard to know what is his best position, there doesn't seem to be any question with Sanchez, it's not just like he's a striker who drifts from that position when he plays up front it looks every inch that we are playing without a striker, it looked that way last night until Giroud came on.

It's not a criticism of Sanchez, there just doesn't appear to be any indication he can play there and certainly not in a formation with three central midfielders and two wide players.

Could he play behind a second striker? Maybe....but to be honest we give away too much space in the middle of the park with three midfielders in the middle, let alone with two.

To be honest it seems like you are desperate to try incorporating a system in order to not play Ozil.

There isn't anything personal against Ozil. It's question of style and tactics. How can we get the best out of him with what we have and I think people overestimate his importance. We may be looking at the last days of the lone striker. The type Ozil needs to succeed here, we might not have and is not available on the market.

Walcott up front divides opinion and I doubt we'll see him play there again unless injuries permit it. But Walcott has had games where he's looked anonymous up front but then over the next couple of games looks explosive and like he's adapting. But let's phase him out of the debate.

It's early days for Perez, but from what I saw on Saturday is similar to what I've seen of Sanchez. Dropping deep, drifting wide and really struggling to get into the game. It's a worry that Wenger hooked him after an hour and the next game went with Alexis. I kind of have the feeling we'll have the same sort of problems with Perez because he'd have similar habits when playing up front. I'm really not sure how patient Wenger and the fans will be if he has the same sort of problems.

Which brings us back to having to play Giroud. That's like driving down a dead end again. We've seen Giroud flop so many times and I don't think he works particular well with Ozil. It seems pointless going through another season to see if it works. I don't want to see it unless we're playing with Sanchez or Perez off him. Not Ozil because we've seen how stale that gets. I'll leave out the debate about Ozil needing to get more goals. I'll accept that he's not a goal scorer. But I think we have a problem on our hands if a more mobile and pacey strike force still produces these stale performances.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I understand your concern in that respect, but my argument is if you play Xhaka and Ozil you have a guarantee of the ball being recycled quickly from our own box into the final third that much quicker.

Therefore if Perez and Sanchez both play, one can drift wide and one can take up a more central position and it could be interchangeable like if Walcott and Sanchez were playing there.

[Power n Glory]

What you're not seeing is Ozil playing with Henry and Pires and Freddie and the gang. Instead it's Bif, Walnut, and the square peg, round hole Alexis. Of course there's going to be an immense difference in the end result. But surely don't take from that the idea Ozil is deficient, surely take from it the degree by which the manager has let the general standards at this club fall. Ozil has moved from the pinnacle in Spain to a PL team in shocking decline in terms of quality, but still he delivers the best numbers in Europe. If he's not remarkable in your book then nobody can be, because he tops them all when it comes to doing his job - assisting goal scorers and creating scoring chances. What more can be asked of him? You say he needs to shoot more. Why? What the fuck are our strikers up to if we are relying on our playmaker to do the shooting?

You still haven't answered where Ozil would fit in a Diego Simeone set up.

I prefer Kevin De Bruyne. That's the influence I expect from a AM.

[Niall_Quinn]

There isn't anything personal against Ozil. It's question of style and tactics. How can we get the best out of him with what we have and I think people overestimate his importance. We may be looking at the last days of the lone striker. The type Ozil needs to succeed here, we might not have and is not available on the market.

Walcott up front divides opinion and I doubt we'll see him play there again unless injuries permit it. But Walcott has had games where he's looked anonymous up front but then over the next couple of games looks explosive and like he's adapting. But let's phase him out of the debate.

It's early days for Perez, but from what I saw on Saturday is similar to what I've seen of Sanchez. Dropping deep, drifting wide and really struggling to get into the game. It's a worry that Wenger hooked him after an hour and the next game went with Alexis. I kind of have the feeling we'll have the same sort of problems with Perez because he'd have similar habits when playing up front. I'm really not sure how patient Wenger and the fans will be if he has the same sort of problems.

Which brings us back to having to play Giroud. That's like driving down a dead end again. We've seen Giroud flop so many times and I don't think he works particular well with Ozil. It seems pointless going through another season to see if it works. I don't want to see it unless we're playing with Sanchez or Perez off him. Not Ozil because we've seen how stale that gets. I'll leave out the debate about Ozil needing to get more goals. I'll accept that he's not a goal scorer. But I think we have a problem on our hands if a more mobile and pacey strike force still produces these stale performances.

You're micro analysing pointlessness. We don't have a style, or a system and we won't have one while the current manager is here. And the current manager won't do a single thing to fine tune the team to the individuals in it. And thank fuck, in a way, because the last time he did it when he put everything in orbit around Fabregas he irreparably destroyed our game.

However, once Wenger fucks off, then everything you are saying suddenly becomes relevant, for all players and all positions.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Has anyone said 'sell him, he's shit' yet?

[Niall_Quinn]

You still haven't answered where Ozil would fit in a Diego Simeone set up.

I prefer Kevin De Bruyne. That's the influence I expect from a AM.

Eh? I assumed we were just ignoring questions. This started when I asked you who you'd replace Ozil with, which you answered with a question. And now I STILL haven't answered?

Come off it. I never mentioned Simeone either, although if we could land him I'd be chuffed. I don't know where Simeone would play Ozil, how could I know that. But I'd have Ozil behind Alexis and Lewandowski if it was up to me. You need that quality (and intelligent) striker to see the best of Ozil. De Brown isn't fit to clean Ozil's boots, but right now he plays in a team with a proper manager and that makes all the difference. Thank fuck Pep doesn't have Ozil at his disposal, that would be scary.

[Niall_Quinn]

Has anyone said 'sell him, he's shit' yet?

Sell him he's shit yet.

[Power n Glory]

Eh? I assumed we were just ignoring questions. This started when I asked you who you'd replace Ozil with, which you answered with a question. And now I STILL haven't answered?

Come off it. I never mentioned Simeone either, although if we could land him I'd be chuffed. I don't know where Simeone would play Ozil, how could I know that. But I'd have Ozil behind Alexis and Lewandowski if it was up to me. You need that quality (and intelligent) striker to see the best of Ozil. De Brown isn't fit to clean Ozil's boots, but right now he plays in a team with a proper manager and that makes all the difference. Thank fuck Pep doesn't have Ozil at his disposal, that would be scary.

You don't replace Ozil. The number 10 role becomes redundant. I think he could benefit from playing a deeper role as a CM to be honest but he's a bit lightweight.

Hypothetical, but if we play Lewandowski with Alexis up front and Ozil behind, isn't that a diamond system?

[GP]

I asked you who you'd replace Ozil with

Hugh Mungus.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think your debates with Sherbert has finally caused you to have a stroke and you're now in your recovery P n G.

Though I do recall Ozil actively being ignored by his International team mates for 45 minutes before then finally coming into his own. Ozil has been desperately let down by the manager and his team mates.

[Power n Glory]

I think your debates with Sherbert has finally caused you to have a stroke and you're now in your recovery P n G.

Though I do recall Ozil actively being ignored by his International team mates for 45 minutes before then finally coming into his own. Ozil has been desperately let down by the manager and his team mates.

:lol: Am I out of line?

Last season was a travesty. The manager and players certainly didn't help Ozil but seeing where we are this season, I worry we'll see a repeat of that because I don't think Wenger will be patient with Sanchez or Perez up front. Which leads us back to the inevitable inclusion of Giroud. He's not an awful player but if we go down that road, we have to try something different because I can't see Ozil changing or Giroud. Ozil would probably thrive more with an off the shoulder pacey striker, not a target man like Giroud, but Giroud would probably thrive more off a more aggressive mobile AM or shadow striker.

How do you see things in light of what happened last season? The transfer window is over and Wenger isn't going anywhere for now.

[Niall_Quinn]

You don't replace Ozil. The number 10 role becomes redundant. I think he could benefit from playing a deeper role as a CM to be honest but he's a bit lightweight.

Hypothetical, but if we play Lewandowski with Alexis up front and Ozil behind, isn't that a diamond system?

I wouldn't know, I don't pay any attention to any of that. All I know is if you get those 3 on a pitch and get them near the opposition goals then you'll score goals. Supplement with players who can cross a ball, and pass and have a bit of ambition and you're in good shape. The more I think about our summer signings the more bizarre it all seems. The club was willing to spend 90mill after all, or forced to, or whatever. But we weren't willing to go out and get that striker we've needed for an age, and I don't pay any attention to the idea none were available. That's BS, in the world of football it's about the money. Put the money on the table and the greedy bastards who are up for a cut will make any deal happen.

Instead we end up with a rag-tag bunch of overpriced second raters, with the exception of Xhaka perhaps. Ok, not good. Then the first CL game comes along and that manager sits the new CM and striker on the bench.

I really don't think there's any point in trying to figure out what's happening at Arsenal any more. There's no plan, no system, no anything except crazy randomness. Bit like a drunk pilot wildly lurching away from one looming mountaintop and towards the next, all while flying upsidedown because he's too drunk to know which way is up. The crash is inevitable. Trying to figure out the best formation at Arsenal is like inquiring when the drinks will be served on that crazy plane.

So, we wait for the next fireball but this time we don't let that oiled up pilot anywhere near the controls.

[Power n Glory]

I wouldn't know, I don't pay any attention to any of that. All I know is if you get those 3 on a pitch and get them near the opposition goals then you'll score goals. Supplement with players who can cross a ball, and pass and have a bit of ambition and you're in good shape. The more I think about our summer signings the more bizarre it all seems. The club was willing to spend 90mill after all, or forced to, or whatever. But we weren't willing to go out and get that striker we've needed for an age, and I don't pay any attention to the idea none were available. That's BS, in the world of football it's about the money. Put the money on the table and the greedy bastards who are up for a cut will make any deal happen.

Instead we end up with a rag-tag bunch of overpriced second raters, with the exception of Xhaka perhaps. Ok, not good. Then the first CL game comes along and that manager sits the new CM and striker on the bench.

I really don't think there's any point in trying to figure out what's happening at Arsenal any more. There's no plan, no system, no anything except crazy randomness. Bit like a drunk pilot wildly lurching away from one looming mountaintop and towards the next, all while flying upsidedown because he's too drunk to know which way is up. The crash is inevitable. Trying to figure out the best formation at Arsenal is like inquiring when the drinks will be served on that crazy plane.

So, we wait for the next fireball but this time we don't let that oiled up pilot anywhere near the controls.

We can’t overlook that sort of stuff. This is how I imagine it would look if we played with two strikers, Ozil behind with wide players that can cross. We’ll never get Lewandowski but we can look at it.

-----------Alexis-------Lewandowski------

--------------------Ozil--------------------
Iwobi---------------------------Ox/Walcott
------------------Xhaka--------------------

Monreal------Kos------Mustafi------Bellerin

-------------------Cech--------------------

Swap out the players you don’t think should be starting but we’d be pretty open and fucked over quickly. We’d only have one DM playing if we’re trying to play with wide men. Unless we play the old AC Milan style diamond with the wingbacks overlapping for width and 4 central players making up the diamond. Or it’s a case of playing 3 at the back like Juve do.

This is all hypothetical of course. Nothing will change with Wenger but even if did change or we changed manager, I highly doubt we’d ever see Ozil playing behind two strikers. He’d have to played out wide and allowed to push in.

[Penguin]

if Alexis ran behind more, he would have more goals and Ozil would have more assists. He doesnt. Thats why he sucks at striker. He chases the ball too much and doesnt stay advanced.

The point is he does make runs behind and those goals are the proof. Most of our players always come short to get the ball to feet, but Alexis is one of the few who does actually look to break the lines.

He also chases back and tries to win the ball back because that's the type of player he is. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

[selassie]

I wouldn't know, I don't pay any attention to any of that. All I know is if you get those 3 on a pitch and get them near the opposition goals then you'll score goals. Supplement with players who can cross a ball, and pass and have a bit of ambition and you're in good shape. The more I think about our summer signings the more bizarre it all seems. The club was willing to spend 90mill after all, or forced to, or whatever. But we weren't willing to go out and get that striker we've needed for an age, and I don't pay any attention to the idea none were available. That's BS, in the world of football it's about the money. Put the money on the table and the greedy bastards who are up for a cut will make any deal happen.

Instead we end up with a rag-tag bunch of overpriced second raters, with the exception of Xhaka perhaps. Ok, not good. Then the first CL game comes along and that manager sits the new CM and striker on the bench.

I really don't think there's any point in trying to figure out what's happening at Arsenal any more. There's no plan, no system, no anything except crazy randomness. Bit like a drunk pilot wildly lurching away from one looming mountaintop and towards the next, all while flying upsidedown because he's too drunk to know which way is up. The crash is inevitable. Trying to figure out the best formation at Arsenal is like inquiring when the drinks will be served on that crazy plane.

So, we wait for the next fireball but this time we don't let that oiled up pilot anywhere near the controls.

Brilliant :haha:

[selassie]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of Ozil checking out early for the season and looking for the exit but do we really want him here if that’s the case? I’m usually on side with the players when it comes to this sort of issue but not in this case. I don’t think Ozil has done anything to warrant such high praise.

People point to what he did last season as proof of his quality but I’m still not convinced. After Christmas he checked out for the rest of the season. When I compare that purple patch/run of good form with other players, such as Ramsey 2013/14 season (34 games, 16 goals, 10 assists) or even Theo’s run (43 games, 21 goals, 16 assists), I’d take either of those guys replicating that form over Ozil’s 45 games, 8 goals and 20 assists.

Maybe he’s hung over from the Euros and needs to get up to speed but it’s disheartening to see us play games without Giroud and have all out pace up front and he’s not threading anyone through. His influence on the game has to extend beyond one decent pass. The chances he’s creating aren’t even killer through balls that sets us up with chance after chance. Heck, against Southampton the stats will say he created 4 chances but not one of those were clear cut one on ones. I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves. He’s not essential and I’ll have to see a massive improvement to think otherwise.

PnG, I know it's already been covered, but I am of the opinion that whilst Ozil is not essential, he's still a great player to have and is simply being tasked with a role that doesn't bear the fruits of his productivity.

He's not perfect, not by any means...he does go into hiding in some BIG games too, for me though...the major issue is that he simply doesn't have the required quality up top to put away the many chances he creates.

Wenger has absolutely failed to buy a top quality striker and he's had 100 of millions to spend over the past 3, what 4 seasons? he's not found anyone...it's ludicrous and a sackable offence.

That aside, I think Ozil doesn't score enough, Wenger did mention it last season and Ozil sniped that his job is to create, sure, his job is to also score goals, especially if he's playing that high up the pitch. Fabregas scored a lot of goals for us in his prime whilst creating a lot of assists, there is no reason why Ozil shouldn't be expected to do the same. Ozil should be comfortably hitting double figures every single season.

[Power n Glory]

The point is he does make runs behind and those goals are the proof. Most of our players always come short to get the ball to feet, but Alexis is one of the few who does actually look to break the lines.

He also chases back and tries to win the ball back because that's the type of player he is. It doesn't have to be one or the other.


Alexis mixes it. The guys the shortest guy on the pitch and will score from a header! That comes from making good runs.

Theo is a player that spends the majority of his time on the pitch making runs in behind defenders. He can go games without making a worthwhile contribution but in theory you'd think Ozil would pick him out a lot more and he'd have way more chances on goal. It should be relentless from the pair if it were that simple. Mastermind is off with this one.

[Power n Glory]

PnG, I know it's already been covered, but I am of the opinion that whilst Ozil is not essential, he's still a great player to have and is simply being tasked with a role that doesn't bear the fruits of his productivity.

He's not perfect, not by any means...he does go into hiding in some BIG games too, for me though...the major issue is that he simply doesn't have the required quality up top to put away the many chances he creates.

Wenger has absolutely failed to buy a top quality striker and he's had 100 of millions to spend over the past 3, what 4 seasons? he's not found anyone...it's ludicrous and a sackable offence.

That aside, I think Ozil doesn't score enough, Wenger did mention it last season and Ozil sniped that his job is to create, sure, his job is to also score goals, especially if he's playing that high up the pitch. Fabregas scored a lot of goals for us in his prime whilst creating a lot of assists, there is no reason why Ozil shouldn't be expected to do the same. Ozil should be comfortably hitting double figures every single season.

I hear you. Wenger really should have addressed the striker situation seasons ago because now it looks like we won’t find a striker capable of playing the solo striker role. Looking around Europe, most teams that don’t have a complete striker and two crazy creative goal machine wingers playing on either side of them play some sort of two striker system to compensate. The football we’re trying to play is too complex and intricate for the personnel we have. We have limited players Hence, why I think we need to change the system if this continues.

That's where I question Ozil and we’ll see if things get better now that we have more players capable of making runs behind the defence. Whether it’s possible to pick them out is another story. Stick Perez up front with Sanchez and Walcott as the wingers and that’s all Ozil should need to carve a defence up (in theory) I doubt that will be the case. We’re seeing Sanchez dropping deep and wide to get touches on the ball when playing up front. We’ve seen that with Perez and there were games last season early on where Walcott wasn’t touching the ball in the box either. It may take some adjustment time for that to happen. Seeing how quickly people are writing off Sanchez knowing his skill set has me even more worried about Perez.

Perez is a playmaker converted into a striker, only has one season up front to his name and used to playing with more space ahead of him and a strike partner. If Ozil and Sanchez can't find a rhythm, I worry about Perez and how much time he'd have up front. But I also think a player like Ozil should be able to find these players that have pace and make runs. They only drop deep and wide because the balls aren't being played. Maybe when Xhaka plays as well we'll see people making more runs when he's on the ball because they can anticipate him making that sort of pass.

There is much to ponder as the season plays out. For certain games, I honestly think he could set ourselves up with Xhaka and Elneny as a holding two and hit teams on the break by playing two strikers. It's not as if we're benefitting from playing a 3 man system when it comes to defending. But anyway.....we'll probably come back to this one when Ozil plays a blinder and when he has a stinker! :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

It sounds to me like you are saying the world's best assister and chance creator is no good at assisting and creating chances.

I already explained it to you. The balls aren't going forward because Wenger is a massive, massive cock.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is this still going on?

[Kano]

Is this still going on?

There is a bit of a Cazorla box to box player thing going on here.

[Power n Glory]

It sounds to me like you are saying the world's best assister and chance creator is no good at assisting and creating chances.

I already explained it to you. The balls aren't going forward because Wenger is a massive, massive cock.

:lol: You did that on purpose.

To an extent yes. The system we have isn't helping matters but intuition has to come into it somewhere. I really don't what Wenger is saying and what he's not saying to the players. We hate the tippy tappy stuff and the way we often overplay but we don't have that problem with Theo or Sanchez. Theo hardly gets involved in the link up play and has been getting away with it for years now, whilst Alexis sometimes holds on to the ball for too long. Then we also have Wenger on record saying Ozil needs to score more goals. But regardless of Wenger's instructions, I would expect some common sense from these players. They're not robots and should be able to adjust as a situation develops.

[Power n Glory]

Passive aggressive bitches! :lol: Kano and Herb as usual.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Passive aggressive bitches! :lol: Kano and Herb as usual.

Excuse me one second, i think i can hear a pot calling a kettle black

[Chippy]

I’ve seen a lot of talk of Ozil checking out early for the season and looking for the exit but do we really want him here if that’s the case? I’m usually on side with the players when it comes to this sort of issue but not in this case. I don’t think Ozil has done anything to warrant such high praise.

People point to what he did last season as proof of his quality but I’m still not convinced. After Christmas he checked out for the rest of the season. When I compare that purple patch/run of good form with other players, such as Ramsey 2013/14 season (34 games, 16 goals, 10 assists) or even Theo’s run (43 games, 21 goals, 16 assists), I’d take either of those guys replicating that form over Ozil’s 45 games, 8 goals and 20 assists.

Maybe he’s hung over from the Euros and needs to get up to speed but it’s disheartening to see us play games without Giroud and have all out pace up front and he’s not threading anyone through. His influence on the game has to extend beyond one decent pass. The chances he’s creating aren’t even killer through balls that sets us up with chance after chance. Heck, against Southampton the stats will say he created 4 chances but not one of those were clear cut one on ones. I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves. He’s not essential and I’ll have to see a massive improvement to think otherwise.
He is quality on his day, keep him. Simples!

[Power n Glory]

http://www.football365.com/news/its-ozil-thats-arsenals-problem-not-giroud


It’s Ozil who is Arsenal’s problem
This Euros has given extra weight to the common understanding that there just aren’t that many out-and-out, give him half a chance and you expect him to score, top-class strikers out there. Even less that are realistically available, if any.

So love him or lump him this means Arsenal are almost certain to start another season with Giroud up top. But the thing is he’s quite noticeably had a pretty good tournament, and a lot of Arsenal fans will be lamenting this as proof for Arsene to keep him on as a good enough striker to mount a title challenge, further compounding the ever present Arsenal transfer policy frustation.

So how to solve this? I may be the only one looking at it this way but I dont think Giroud is the problem, I think Ozil is. Stay with me…

Don’t get me wrong, I love Ozil. I think he’s a magician. But I just don’t think he’s playing in the right position. The reason Giroud’s had such a good tournament is because he’s had Griezmann playing just off him, the perfect partner for him to do what he does best: hold up the ball, bring others into play and lay people through to score – generally being one of the least selfish strikers going, not the main focal point for scoring goals. Arsenal’s problem is that Ozil doesn’t compliment that, he can pick a pass like no other, but doesn’t look to drive forward and score goals, sometimes even annoyingly so when he seems to look to set up a teammate even when perfectly placed to shoot. This for me is a big part of why sometimes we just can’t break teams down.

So to get the most from Giroud we need a player more akin to Griezmann to play that role just off him, within the squad I’d say the most suited players would be Sanchez and Ramsey, who could really bring out the best in him, although the former seems to much prefer playing out wide and cutting in and the latter if he can carry his international form into the new season. Past that I’m sure there are plenty of names you could pull out of the transfer gossip lucky dip but while the list of those that are actually realistic is probabably quite short, it’s pretty clear that there are more viable attacking mids out there than there are strikers.

Now where does this leave Ozil? He obviously has to play. You could shunt him out wide, but could he be perfect in the role Santi played before his highly unfortunate injury? I’m sure many people will scoff at this but he’s got the perfect range of passing for the position, there’s been concrete stats showing him consitantly covering more distance than any other Arsenal player so we can put that lazy myth to bed and hell, I’ve even seen him get stuck in sometimes – not that tackling was ever a strong part of Santi’s game.

In my humble opinion I really think this would work well for Arsenal, have him deeper spraying passes about and let someone more suited to working alongside Giroud do his thing in the centre, if perhaps only when not playing against the teams where we’d really need a more robust Xhaka/Coquelin/Elneny holding pair.

In an ideal world for this to work (for the love of God please) we’d actually just buy Griezmann, but that’s probably wishful thinking…

Food for thought and partly what I've tried to explain on this thread.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.football365.com/news/its-ozil-thats-arsenals-problem-not-giroud



Food for thought and partly what I've tried to explain on this thread.

All this says is that Wenger's incompetent. It's for the manager to utilise his players in the most effective manner and Wenger has been incapable of that for many years. Get rid of Wenger and many, many problems just fade away overnight.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

it makes the assertion that Giroud had a good tournament? did he.....he scored three goals in seven games (scoring in two of the games against Romania and Iceland)

[Letters]

Iceland are very good, actually :sulk:

:(

[Özim]

Yes and don't forget that horrendous miss when he was through on goal 1 on 1 with the keeper and only needed to look up and pass to Griezmann for a tap in.

He wasn't very good at all in fact, very average, he's Mr average really.

[Power n Glory]

That's the wrong focus. No striker besides Griezmann really stood out and that's the whole point. Giroud scored 3 which is joint second but his play is complimented Griezmann's style.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Ozil. I think he’s a magician. But I just don’t think he’s playing in the right position. The reason Giroud’s had such a good tournament is because he’s had Griezmann playing just off him, the perfect partner for him to do what he does best: hold up the ball, bring others into play and lay people through to score – generally being one of the least selfish strikers going, not the main focal point for scoring goals. Arsenal’s problem is that Ozil doesn’t compliment that, he can pick a pass like no other, but doesn’t look to drive forward and score goals, sometimes even annoyingly so when he seems to look to set up a teammate even when perfectly placed to shoot. This for me is a big part of why sometimes we just can’t break teams down.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's the wrong focus. No striker besides Griezmann really stood out and that's the whole point. Giroud scored 3 which is joint second but his play is complimented Griezmann's style.

That's because the natural tendency in European football is extreme conservatism. There's so much money at stake that the emphasis has shifted from winning to not losing and this has seen huge negativity break out across the game. In the negative formations (except when Leicester City shot that to death) and the bog standard destroyers that are masquerading as football players. Every aspect of the game is regressive. And boring. Boring, boring, boring. Pep has been feted as a genius coach, but he's boring too. Some of his Barca teams played the most boring football the world has ever seen. But it was effective and got the points and so the entertainment didn't matter. The modern game has allowed non-footballers to thrive. Farmers with huge amounts of energy and zero talent. They can't pass, cross a ball, they have no intelligence and absolutely no love of the game. It's the one thing I will always give Wenger credit for. He presided over genuinely beautiful football, the way the game should be played. He still had big and powerful players but they were talented too and they had a natural flair for playing the game in such a way that engrossed the fans and made them jump out of seats and just love every minute of it. Now look at the shit that is the modern game. And look at the amount of money these turd managers and turd players are getting paid to deliver nothing. Giroud being a fine example. As said, there's no bigger Mr Average in the game.

I still get a buzz from watching that Copa final. That was football. Something the Europeans have forgotten all about as they count their money.

[Niall_Quinn]

And Ozil. He's from the old school. A real football player. God forbid we ever lose these players from the game because what the fuck is left? If we ever aspire to playing football again then Ozil is the foundation on which we build.

[Power n Glory]

That's because the natural tendency in European football is extreme conservatism. There's so much money at stake that the emphasis has shifted from winning to not losing and this has seen huge negativity break out across the game. In the negative formations (except when Leicester City shot that to death) and the bog standard destroyers that are masquerading as football players. Every aspect of the game is regressive. And boring. Boring, boring, boring. Pep has been feted as a genius coach, but he's boring too. Some of his Barca teams played the most boring football the world has ever seen. But it was effective and got the points and so the entertainment didn't matter. The modern game has allowed non-footballers to thrive. Farmers with huge amounts of energy and zero talent. They can't pass, cross a ball, they have no intelligence and absolutely no love of the game. It's the one thing I will always give Wenger credit for. He presided over genuinely beautiful football, the way the game should be played. He still had big and powerful players but they were talented too and they had a natural flair for playing the game in such a way that engrossed the fans and made them jump out of seats and just love every minute of it. Now look at the shit that is the modern game. And look at the amount of money these turd managers and turd players are getting paid to deliver nothing. Giroud being a fine example. As said, there's no bigger Mr Average in the game.

I still get a buzz from watching that Copa final. That was football. Something the Europeans have forgotten all about as they count their money.

That's a blanket statement. You mentioned Lewandowski as an ideal striker for this club so you can't fully agree with all of the above. Besides, we have a South American that's far from conservative leading the line but it's not really working.

[Power n Glory]

And Ozil. He's from the old school. A real football player. God forbid we ever lose these players from the game because what the fuck is left? If we ever aspire to playing football again then Ozil is the foundation on which we build.

So we have a Ozil playing behind the South American type you like. What's the problem? Before you jump straight to Wenger being the issue, think about it.

Ozil certainly is not from the old school. He's very conservative, doesn't take risks and plays the percentages.

[Niall_Quinn]

Absolute nonsense PnG. What's happened to football is so obvious that the piss is making bruises as it hits your face. And yet we have some people saying, oh dear, how can we tinker with this just a little to get a different outcome? It's just silly.

You have some sort of agenda biased against Ozil. Any fool can look at the guy playing the game and come away appreciating he's a top class footballer. For that to be in question is ridiculous. It doesn't warrant a debate. However, it's perfectly legitimate to ask if we are getting the best from this player given our setup and our (ahem) tactics. We aren't. I'm not sure anyone disagrees with that. It's frustrating. We have a world class player on our hands and we can't seem to use those talents to the best effect. I wonder why that is? certainly not because the player lacks talent. And certainly not because he's established himself right up there with Messi as the most effective influencer in world football. I mean these are the facts, right? We know the guy can do it because he's done it. Right in front of our eyes.

So why is he not doing it now? Could it be that he's suddenly lost all his talent? Or could it be because we have an idiot in charge of the club?

I wonder? What could the most realistic answer be?

Wenger does this. He passes off the blame to anywhere and everywhere to avoid the glaring issue at the very heart of this club. The cancer.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's a blanket statement. You mentioned Lewandowski as an ideal striker for this club so you can't fully agree with all of the above. Besides, we have a South American that's far from conservative leading the line but it's not really working.

There are the odd few players, LIKE OZIL, who rise above this shite. Obviously.

[Power n Glory]

Absolute nonsense PnG. What's happened to football is so obvious that the piss is making bruises as it hits your face. And yet we have some people saying, oh dear, how can we tinker with this just a little to get a different outcome? It's just silly.

You have some sort of agenda biased against Ozil. Any fool can look at the guy playing the game and come away appreciating he's a top class footballer. For that to be in question is ridiculous. It doesn't warrant a debate. However, it's perfectly legitimate to ask if we are getting the best from this player given our setup and our (ahem) tactics. We aren't. I'm not sure anyone disagrees with that. It's frustrating. We have a world class player on our hands and we can't seem to use those talents to the best effect. I wonder why that is? certainly not because the player lacks talent. And certainly not because he's established himself right up there with Messi as the most effective influencer in world football. I mean these are the facts, right? We know the guy can do it because he's done it. Right in front of our eyes.

So why is he not doing it now? Could it be that he's suddenly lost all his talent? Or could it be because we have an idiot in charge of the club?

I wonder? What could the most realistic answer be?

Wenger does this. He passes off the blame to anywhere and everywhere to avoid the glaring issue at the very heart of this club. The cancer.

It’s far from nonsense. You should probably calm down with the blanket statements. It doesn’t help. You can’t have Lewandowki down as an ideal striker for us and a talented player but write off the whole of European football. That’s nonsense.

I also think you’re watching a totally different player. Ozil is super accurate and tends not to waste passes. Pinpoint accuracy. I rarely see him play a pass into space hoping the runner gets on to the end of it with a defender contesting it. He plays the percentages and often won’t take a shot if a player is in a better position than him. Am I wrong? That doesn’t mean he’s not world class and that doesn’t mean there is an agenda behind this. What would the purpose be? What’s my agenda?

This is the part I think you’re struggling with.


However, it's perfectly legitimate to ask if we are getting the best from this player given our setup and our (ahem) tactics. We aren't.

So if we all agree we’re not getting the best out of our players, how so?

I’m not the only one who thinks we’re not getting the best out of Ozil. But that extends to other players as well. Without talking about a radical change in personnel that involves the transfer window or sacking the manager, are their possible solutions within the squad to make us a better unit? I think so. Also, if we were to talk about other managers being able to get more out of this team than Wenger, explain how if possible. That’s all this is.

[I am invisible]

The way I see it, if you have a talent, whether it's picking out impossible passes like Özil, holding the ball up and being strong in the air like Giroud, or just running really, really fast like Theo, then you're a potential weapon that's waiting to be used - if we're not getting much out of them, then we're probably not using them right. Özil as no.10 and Giroud as CF is a combination that doesn't work, that's all, and it's making them both look bad - desist in pairing them together in this way, and I think a lot of the problems we see with them become a lot less visible.

As to whether we need Özil, of course we don't - he's a total luxury player! But 'need' isn't the same as 'want', and those luxury players (when you get a good one, and not a dud) are what add the sparkle and excitement to mere functionality and effectiveness. At the level that this club is pitching itself at, you've got to have both...

[I am invisible]

That's the wrong focus. No striker besides Griezmann really stood out and that's the whole point. Giroud scored 3 which is joint second but his play is complimented Griezmann's style.

Basically, Özil is playing in exactly the right place, if has a different striker in fron of him. And Giroud is playing in exactly the right place if he has a different player behind him. Again, the problem here is the pairing, not the players...

[Niall_Quinn]

It’s far from nonsense. You should probably calm down with the blanket statements. It doesn’t help. You can’t have Lewandowki down as an ideal striker for us and a talented player but write off the whole of European football. That’s nonsense.

I also think you’re watching a totally different player. Ozil is super accurate and tends not to waste passes. Pinpoint accuracy. I rarely see him play a pass into space hoping the runner gets on to the end of it with a defender contesting it. He plays the percentages and often won’t take a shot if a player is in a better position than him. Am I wrong? That doesn’t mean he’s not world class and that doesn’t mean there is an agenda behind this. What would the purpose be? What’s my agenda?

This is the part I think you’re struggling with.

However, it's perfectly legitimate to ask if we are getting the best from this player given our setup and our (ahem) tactics. We aren't.

So if we all agree we’re not getting the best out of our players, how so?

I’m not the only one who thinks we’re not getting the best out of Ozil. But that extends to other players as well. Without talking about a radical change in personnel that involves the transfer window or sacking the manager, are their possible solutions within the squad to make us a better unit? I think so. Also, if we were to talk about other managers being able to get more out of this team than Wenger, explain how if possible. That’s all this is.

The ONLY thing that is going to solve this issue, and may others, is sacking the manager because the manager is the problem. And considering the manager has been messing around like this for a decade, regardless of who is in the team, means nothing is going to change while the manager is here. You can't say, how do we change it without sacking the manager, when sacking the manager is the thing that will change it.

If Wenger doesn't go then everything else is irrelevant.

[Power n Glory]

Özil is playing in exactly the right place, if Giroud isn't playing in front of him. And Giroud is playing in exactly the right place if Özil isn't sat behind him. Again, the problem here is the pairing, not the players...

Exactly. It’s a really bad pairing. The question is, do we have the players to make a good pairing? With Giroud, I think we may if played with Sanchez slightly behind him. With Ozil, I always thought someone with pace would do. It’s early days for the Sanchez pairing but I’m a little worried because I haven’t seen anything to suggest they’re on the same wavelength. But I’m prepared to give it more time. If it’s an obvious dud, the only real options left are Perez or Theo.

[Power n Glory]

The ONLY thing that is going to solve this issue, and may others, is sacking the manager because the manager is the problem. And considering the manager has been messing around like this for a decade, regardless of who is in the team, means nothing is going to change while the manager is here. You can't say, how do we change it without sacking the manager, when sacking the manager is the thing that will change it.

If Wenger doesn't go then everything else is irrelevant.

You might as well check out until Wenger leaves in that case. What more there to discuss if all this is pointless to you?

[I am invisible]

Exactly. It’s a really bad pairing. The question is, do we have the players to make a good pairing? With Giroud, I think we may if played with Sanchez slightly behind him. With Ozil, I always thought someone with pace would do. It’s early days for the Sanchez pairing but I’m a little worried because I haven’t seen anything to suggest they’re on the same wavelength. But I’m prepared to give it more time. If it’s an obvious dud, the only real options left are Perez or Theo.
I really think Sanchez behind Giroud would be worth a try - that looks very similar to his pairing with Griezmann to me, and I think it's where Sanchez plays or Chile?

Or we could put Ramsey behind him? I could see that working well too (and it may even be what we need to get Ramsey's mojo back)?

I could even see Özil and Giroud working well in the same XI, if we put Özil down one of the flanks (whenever I've seen the two of them combine well in the past, it's usually when Özil's gone flying down the left on the break, and fizzed in a low cross for Giroud to hit first-time). They just don't work in that No.10/CF relationship - it highlights the worst parts of both of their games, and wastes all of their strongest attributes. Quite frankly, it's making the two of them look like idiots when they're really not.

With Özil staying at no.10, the solution is more obvious - play him with a more mobile CF! But, as you say, the problem we have is that all of the current options who might fit the bill are half-wingers who would have to learn the CF role, so we'd need to make our peace with that one taking a while to develop. I'm up for it - at least it would feel like we're doing something proactive, and that it might lead to a solution. Anything but more Giroud as CF and Özil behind him!

[Power n Glory]

I really think Sanchez behind Giroud would be worth a try - that looks very similar to his pairing with Griezmann to me, and I think it's where Sanchez plays or Chile?

Or we could put Ramsey behind him? I could see that working well too (and it may even be what we need to get Ramsey's mojo back)?

I could even see Özil and Giroud working well in the same XI, if we put Özil down one of the flanks (whenever I've seen the two of them combine well in the past, it's usually when Özil's gone flying down the left on the break, and fizzed in a low cross for Giroud to hit first-time). They just don't work in that No.10/CF relationship - it highlights the worst parts of both of their games, and wastes all of their strongest attributes. Quite frankly, it's making the two of them look like idiots when they're really not.

With Özil staying at no.10, the solution is more obvious - play him with a more mobile CF! But, as you say, the problem we have is that all of the current options who might fit the bill are half-wingers who would have to learn the CF role, so we'd need to make our peace with that one taking a while to develop. I'm up for it - at least it would feel like we're doing something proactive, and that it might lead to a solution. Anything but more Giroud as CF and Özil behind him!

Ramsey or Sanchez behind Giroud seems like it could work. I wouldn't mind seeing how that plays out and I'm not against Ozil being played wide either if we set up that way. We have enough players to control the middle of the park and I think Ozil would be lethal whipping in crosses to Giroud or teeing it up for Xhaka, Ramsey or Sanchez to belt.

I doubt Ozil would like playing wide but I can't see how we're going to get the best of him as a number 10 if things don't work out with these half wingers we're playing with. But definitely would rather see how that pans. I think each of them can offer something slightly different but would need time to adjust.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ramsey or Sanchez behind Giroud seems like it could work. I wouldn't mind seeing how that plays out and I'm not against Ozil being played wide either if we set up that way. We have enough players to control the middle of the park and I think Ozil would be lethal whipping in crosses to Giroud or teeing it up for Xhaka, Ramsey or Sanchez to belt.

I doubt Ozil would like playing wide but I can't see how we're going to get the best of him as a number 10 if things don't work out with these half wingers we're playing with. But definitely would rather see how that pans. I think each of them can offer something slightly different but would need time to adjust.

You don't want Ozil to play the advanced role but you're happy for Ramsey to? :haha:

[Power n Glory]

You don't want Ozil to play the advanced role but you're happy for Ramsey to? :haha:

:doh: It's not the same role as Ozil or even the same set up.


So to get the most from Giroud we need a player more akin to Griezmann to play that role just off him, within the squad I’d say the most suited players would be Sanchez and Ramsey, who could really bring out the best in him, although the former seems to much prefer playing out wide and cutting in and the latter if he can carry his international form into the new season. Past that I’m sure there are plenty of names you could pull out of the transfer gossip lucky dip but while the list of those that are actually realistic is probabably quite short, it’s pretty clear that there are more viable attacking mids out there than there are strikers.

I won't get into a debate on roles and positioning with you on this one. We know how that goes. Read around on the subject and maybe ask someone else that has suggested the same thing. I'm agreeing with IAV on this one. Also, it's right here in the original article I posted which you obviously didn't read. ;)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I didn't say it was the same role, it would be laughable even for you to suggest Ramsey is capable of the same level of pass making as Ozil.
What amuses me is that I know you think Ramsey is bang average as well, yet you're prepared to put him in the team above Ozil or try and shoe horn Ozil onto the flanks which Wenger did in his first season and it was why we often didn't see the best from him until his second season when he was positioned centrally.

I read the article I just didn't agree with it, Giroud played no better with Griezmann than he did with Ozil. And although I don't think Giroud is as awful as is made out, he's for the most part a flat track bully who has no big game mentality. You think that of Ozil, I disagree.

[Power n Glory]

It would help if you read and stopped the armchair psychoanalysis. Why do I get the feeling you desperate to try and prove a point other than football? :lol:

Try to follow.

IAV

Or we could put Ramsey behind him? I could see that working well too (and it may even be what we need to get Ramsey's mojo back)?

PnG

Ramsey or Sanchez behind Giroud seems like it could work. I wouldn't mind seeing how that plays out and I'm not against Ozil being played wide either if we set up that way.

Following?

I'm pretty open to trying whatever brings the best out of the players and think it's foolish to persist with a system that doesn't work -Giroud/Ozil combo. Does that make sense? The right pairing can help bring out the best in both players. Ramsey is another player that looked better playing in a different role during the Euros so I'm prepared to see how he'd work playing closer to Giroud but not in a 3 man striker set up. That's not saying it will work for sure but if you've been following my posts, I've always said I can't bear another season of watching the same set up knowing it's going fail.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Seems like it to me.

[GP]

Was outstanding again.

[Power n Glory]

Missed the game. Was it a vintage Ozil performance? Can't tell from the highlights. Didn't get the best connection with his goal and got a bit lucky buy the turn and run to make it was excellent.

But if following the debate, I certainly wouldn't say Sanchez or Santi are a problem.

Also, Mac and Doug both of you should hold back on the wumming considering the constant jabs I've seen you guys have made about Walcott. Another big game performance but all of our best players should be showing up for a game like this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Yeah not surprised you ended up mentioning Theo. You tend to always do. And why should I hold back? If I am proven ridiculously wrong about how Theo has been then as an Arsenal fan, why would that hurt?

[Power n Glory]

Considering how long Theo has been at the club and how long I've been on GW, is that odd? I mention Wenger a lot too. :lol: Theo's performances and how's he's best used has always been a bone of contention. But it doesn't hurt at all if you're proven wrong. I'm just picking out the double standard when I see it especially when I've seen you praise other players for almost doing the same thing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

As much as I rate Ozil and I do, I don't think yesterday proved a lot, the Chelsea defence was so amateurish and the midfield so lacking in commitment that Denilson could have looked like a world beater against them.

[Kano]

Were you working for BT yesterday by any chance?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not criticising our performance at all, the players all did what they needed to do and did it well. To say Chelsea made that job very easy is no reflection on us at all.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yesterday proved what was patently obvious in the first place. If we use the talent we have at this club in an ambitious manner we can stand toe to toe with almost any opponent. Yes the chavs were poor, but I'm sure they didn't choose to be that way. We pulled their defence all over the place, we made them look bad. The chavs didn't sit back and invite us to have the ball, we harried them all over the pitch and when we regained possession we passed it quickly and accurately into the danger zone. We did the opposite of what we usually do. Can you imagine a similar result had we played the tippy tappy bollocks we've been suffering for several seasons now? About a year ago we ripped Utd apart in a similar manner. The challenge now is to build on this and not slip back into the conservative ways that have dragged our standard of football into the sewer. We KNOW we can do a lot better and we just saw the proof. How do we take this ambition and intensity into every game for the remainder of the season? That's the question and the challenge the manager faces now. No point making a bold statement if you don't follow it up decisively.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

As much as I rate Ozil and I do, I don't think yesterday proved a lot, the Chelsea defence was so amateurish and the midfield so lacking in commitment that Denilson could have looked like a world beater against them.

You've completely overstated the second point but I agree with the bold.

He was excellent regardless of the goal and hasn't been nearly as bad as many have stated the last few games.

Better wear your tin hat PG Tips :d

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think the second point can be overstated, Chelsea were diabolical defensively

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I was more referring to Denilson looking like a world beater...... Losing Kante as Ozil did is the sort of thing he does quite regularly albeit not always in such spectacular fashion or to that level of opposition. It won't always be lauded if it doesn't end in anything though.

Why not focus on how good we were.......and this time we were superb. It's not as if the performance was no better than PSG with the only difference being the opposition.

[Dicks and chicks]

Sell him and buy back bichoff quite frankly.

[Dicks and chicks]

I was more referring to Denilson looking like a world beater...... Losing Kante as Ozil did is the sort of thing he does quite regularly albeit not always in such spectacular fashion or to that level of opposition. It won't always be lauded if it doesn't end in anything though.

Why not focus on how good we were.......and this time we were superb. It's not as if the performance was no better than PSG with the only difference being the opposition.

I remember there was 1 season in which denilson did actually look like a world beater

[Power n Glory]

Yesterday proved what was patently obvious in the first place. If we use the talent we have at this club in an ambitious manner we can stand toe to toe with almost any opponent. Yes the chavs were poor, but I'm sure they didn't choose to be that way. We pulled their defence all over the place, we made them look bad. The chavs didn't sit back and invite us to have the ball, we harried them all over the pitch and when we regained possession we passed it quickly and accurately into the danger zone. We did the opposite of what we usually do. Can you imagine a similar result had we played the tippy tappy bollocks we've been suffering for several seasons now? About a year ago we ripped Utd apart in a similar manner. The challenge now is to build on this and not slip back into the conservative ways that have dragged our standard of football into the sewer. We KNOW we can do a lot better and we just saw the proof. How do we take this ambition and intensity into every game for the remainder of the season? That's the question and the challenge the manager faces now. No point making a bold statement if you don't follow it up decisively.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UMIRGRd0WQ

This is a very tip tappy goal, NQ. I can't speak for the overall nature of the game because I've only seen the highlights but if Iwobi takes a heavy touch after the first pass from Ozil or if Kante doesn't slip and nicks the ball off Iwobi after the second pass back form Ozil, the opportunity for the 2nd goal has gone and we're open for the counter.

It's great play from Iwobi to make that turn and slip Bellerin in. He spots the run and plays the risky pass. He could have played it back out ignoring the run to try and keep possession. We'll always be a team that plays possession football under Wenger but I don't know how his coaching can stop a player from picking out a good run when playing so deep in our opponents half. It has to come down to individual choices at some point.

For example, watch Theo's movement for the build up. He makes a good run into the box as soon as he sees Ozil getting a touch and he calls for the pass. But Ozil plays a simple pass to Iwobi who's not really in a great position to do damage with his back to goal. It results in the sort of tipp tappy moment you despise and would probably curse if that move breaks down. Could Ozil not have played the ball first time to Theo? Did he see the run? Is it too much of a difficult angle and pass? I don't know. Would a pass to his left for Monreal to whip in a cross be better? Who knows. But it results in a goal. Heck of a pass from Iwobi to find Bellerin, great movement from Theo and perfect cross from Hector. 2-0.

[Goonermerree]

We were so not tippy tappy yesterday.

[Power n Glory]

I'm can't really tell but there were a couple of moments where we overplayed a little and then countered. I don't know if we deviated from the usual way we'd attack.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

It was very tippy tappy, just with cutting edge. No need for us to pretend it was something else entirely because we won and played well. It was quick, incisive, progressive passes that cut them open to devastating effect.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UMIRGRd0WQ

This is a very tip tappy goal, NQ. I can't speak for the overall nature of the game because I've only seen the highlights but if Iwobi takes a heavy touch after the first pass from Ozil or if Kante doesn't slip and nicks the ball off Iwobi after the second pass back form Ozil, the opportunity for the 2nd goal has gone and we're open for the counter.

It's great play from Iwobi to make that turn and slip Bellerin in. He spots the run and plays the risky pass. He could have played it back out ignoring the run to try and keep possession. We'll always be a team that plays possession football under Wenger but I don't know how his coaching can stop a player from picking out a good run when playing so deep in our opponents half. It has to come down to individual choices at some point.

For example, watch Theo's movement for the build up. He makes a good run into the box as soon as he sees Ozil getting a touch and he calls for the pass. But Ozil plays a simple pass to Iwobi who's not really in a great position to do damage with his back to goal. It results in the sort of tipp tappy moment you despise and would probably curse if that move breaks down. Could Ozil not have played the ball first time to Theo? Did he see the run? Is it too much of a difficult angle and pass? I don't know. Would a pass to his left for Monreal to whip in a cross be better? Who knows. But it results in a goal. Heck of a pass from Iwobi to find Bellerin, great movement from Theo and perfect cross from Hector. 2-0.

That goal is as far away from tippy tappy Wengerball MkII as you can get. This was Wengerball MkI, the original and still the best.

Four players in the box, moving the ball at high tempo, taking a risk with the pass, using width, having a player in a genuine striker's position as the ball comes into the box. All the things we normally don't do.

Under tippy tappy nobody would have moved into the box. They'd all have congregated around the edge of the box and held static positions, tapping pass after pass until the ball was eventually lost.

[Niall_Quinn]

It was very tippy tappy, just with cutting edge. No need for us to pretend it was something else entirely because we won and played well. It was quick, incisive, progressive passes that cut them open to devastating effect.

There is no cutting edge with our regular tippy tappy, that's the problem. Always the extra pass, always the safe option. We started falling into that pattern after the match was secure and some have already said it was a shame we didn't go for the jugular and dish out a heavier dose of payback (which we could have done), but the extra energy, pace and the direct play is what won us this game. The crappy chav defence helped, but they would have loved it and been in the comfort zone had we opted to play in our normal manner.

[Power n Glory]

That goal is as far away from tippy tappy Wengerball MkII as you can get. This was Wengerball MkI, the original and still the best.

Four players in the box, moving the ball at high tempo, taking a risk with the pass, using width, having a player in a genuine striker's position as the ball comes into the box. All the things we normally don't do.

Under tippy tappy nobody would have moved into the box. They'd all have congregated around the edge of the box and held static positions, tapping pass after pass until the ball was eventually lost.

You’re describing the same tactic just a different level of application. The exchanges of passes between Iwobi and Ozil aren’t necessary. But it worked. Our wingbacks always overlap and Theo always makes off the ball runs. It’s what he does most when we attack because he’s the one attacking player that has the least amount of passes and touches on the ball. Against a well organised defence, we’re sometimes shut out. It’s a thin line. As said, if Iwobi or Ozil lose get closed down quickly and lose the ball and we end up conceding, how is that different to when other teams sit back and hit us on the counter?

[Niall_Quinn]

You’re describing the same tactic just a different level of application. The exchanges of passes between Iwobi and Ozil aren’t necessary. But it worked. Our wingbacks always overlap and Theo always makes off the ball runs. It’s what he does most when we attack because he’s the one attacking player that has the least amount of passes and touches on the ball. Against a well organised defence, we’re sometimes shut out. It’s a thin line. As said, if Iwobi or Ozil lose get closed down quickly and lose the ball and we end up conceding, how is that different to when other teams sit back and hit us on the counter?

A "different level of application"? You mean it's the same thing but different?

If you are saying that we normally play with tempo and plenty of movement, and that our passing is usually decisive and aggressive and that we regularly get players into the kill zone in the opponent's box then I can't agree.

[Power n Glory]

A "different level of application"? You mean it's the same thing but different?

If you are saying that we normally play with tempo and plenty of movement, and that our passing is usually decisive and aggressive and that we regularly get players into the kill zone in the opponent's box then I can't agree.

‘Tippy tappy’ is our poor man version of Tika Taka. The way we try to attack and dominate teams with our passing has always been the same. The lack of movement and effort that we often see from the players comes either down to a lack of effort or we’ve come up against a frustrating defence that we can’t break down. Same tactic, just a different result. After a loss and when Wenger says we played with the handbreak on’ or ‘lacked a little sharpness’, the same characteristics you’re now applauding; the aggressive pinpoint passing, the movement….that’s what he’s looking for from the team. This is how ‘Wengerball’ ‘Tippy Tappy’ is always supposed to be played but it doesn’t always work out.

[Niall_Quinn]

‘Tippy tappy’ is our poor man version of Tika Taka. The way we try to attack and dominate teams with our passing has always been the same. The lack of movement and effort that we often see from the players comes either down to a lack of effort or we’ve come up against a frustrating defence that we can’t break down. Same tactic, just a different result. After a loss and when Wenger says we played with the handbreak on’ or ‘lacked a little sharpness’, the same characteristics you’re now applauding; the aggressive pinpoint passing, the movement….that’s what he’s looking for from the team. This is how ‘Wengerball’ ‘Tippy Tappy’ is always supposed to be played but it doesn’t always work out.

So Saturday was our usual game, except the chavs allowed us to play the way we want to but usually can't? Isn't that what BT was trying to paint?

Not buying it because very obviously we played differently on Saturday. We were much quicker to the ball, we committed far more players forward and we penetrated the penalty area for a change. And because the tempo was much higher is seemed to benefit our passing, almost as if we are better when we don't have time to think. Ozil dominated, though I guess you'll say he didn't. The team dominated and the chavs were overrun. Their defence may be disorganised but the pressure we placed on them played as much part as any troubles they are having on the training ground.

[Power n Glory]

So Saturday was our usual game, except the chavs allowed us to play the way we want to but usually can't? Isn't that what BT was trying to paint?

Not buying it because very obviously we played differently on Saturday. We were much quicker to the ball, we committed far more players forward and we penetrated the penalty area for a change. And because the tempo was much higher is seemed to benefit our passing, almost as if we are better when we don't have time to think. Ozil dominated, though I guess you'll say he didn't. The team dominated and the chavs were overrun. Their defence may be disorganised but the pressure we placed on them played as much part as any troubles they are having on the training ground.

:doh: You really don't understand the difference, do you?

On attack, we were playing the same tactics as we usually would but our players were just on their A game. I can't speak for Chelsea.

Do you think Wenger told them to play faster or intentionally tells them each game not to make runs and not to pass quickly? I mean, when have we not played with as many forward as possible? That's how we always attack but can get caught out when it goes wrong.

[I am invisible]

Sounds like you're both arguing the same point to me, and somehow managing to sound like you're disagreeing? Basically, play with purpose and (controlled) aggression and you'll make things happen, no matter what your gameplan is.

Look at the 3 goals we scored on saturday: one came from high pressing and forcing a mistake, one from tippy-tappy / one-touch passing around a packed area, and one from a swift counter from deep in our own half. One was a solo effort, one a team goal, and one a partnership. Tactically speaking, they were all completely different - the common theme to all of these goals was individual and collective hunger and desire to make something happen.

Great to see that we're capable of scoring such a variety of goals using the same XI players and the same shape - once we've fully integrated Xhaka into team, and we can lauch attacks from any depth and any width, I think we're gonna be really hard to keep out...

[Goonermerree]

Passing the ball is passing the ball. For me tippy, tappy is forward one, sideways, backwards, forwards, sideways, back to Cech, forward, forward, sideways, backwards, forwards. We might be lucky and be at the half way line by now. Meanwhile, the oppo has packed the box. We then tippy, tappy to the box and find no way through, so we tippy, tappy around the box and lose possession. Then it all starts again:banghead:

On Saturday we moved forward with purpose and pace, yeah the Chavs defence was off, but we caused that in some part by being decisive.

[Power n Glory]

Sounds like you're both arguing the same point to me, and somehow managing to sound like you're disagreeing? Basically, play with purpose and (controlled) aggression and you'll make things happen, no matter what your gameplan is.

Look at the 3 goals we scored on saturday: one came from high pressing and forcing a mistake, one from tippy-tappy / one-touch passing around a packed area, and one from a swift counter from deep in our own half. Tactically speaking, they were all completely different - the common theme to all of these goals was individual and collective hunger and desire to make something happen.

Great to see that we're capable of scoring such a variety of goals using the same XI players and the same shape - once we've fully integrated Xhaka into team, and we can lauch attacks from any depth and any width, I think we're gonna be really hard to keep out...

That's just it. It's down to application and how the players approach the game. NQ makes it sound we abounded our main attacking principles for this one game. That's where we are on a different page.

If we'd have conceded two goals in the 2nd half from those counter attacks, he'd be cursing Wenger. If Kos and Bellerin hadn't made those last ditch challenges, if Batshuayi had scored his goal, can you imagine what NQ would say about the tactics? Wenger being negative?

[Power n Glory]

Passing the ball is passing the ball. For me tippy, tappy is forward one, sideways, backwards, forwards, sideways, back to Cech, forward, forward, sideways, backwards, forwards. We might be lucky and be at the half way line by now. Meanwhile, the oppo has packed the box. We then tippy, tappy to the box and find no way through, so we tippy, tappy around the box and lose possession. Then it all starts again:banghead:

On Saturday we moved forward with purpose and pace, yeah the Chavs defence was off, but we caused that in some part by being decisive.

But do you think Wenger has told them to play any differently? We keep passing to try and probing to try and open teams up. It starts to look cumbersome and slow when we've run out of ideas or not at our sharpest. That second doesn't happen if someone takes a bad touch during the flurry of passes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Passing the ball is passing the ball. For me tippy, tappy is forward one, sideways, backwards, forwards, sideways, back to Cech, forward, forward, sideways, backwards, forwards. We might be lucky and be at the half way line by now. Meanwhile, the oppo has packed the box. We then tippy, tappy to the box and find no way through, so we tippy, tappy around the box and lose possession. Then it all starts again:banghead:

On Saturday we moved forward with purpose and pace, yeah the Chavs defence was off, but we caused that in some part by being decisive.

Precisely. When we go into negative, slow, tip tap mode it stands out a mile. In the first half yesterday we played the opposite of that. In the second half we reverted a little but not entirely. As invisible says, it's all about the purpose, the aggression and ambition. So many games we play negatively, almost with fear, the main purpose being possession even though we end up doing nothing with that possession. Saturday was about playing without that negativity and fear, the players were far more mobile, the energy and tempo much higher and the purpose was to score goals and win the game, not prevent the opposition playing by retaining possession for the sake of retaining possession. We took risks and that was good to see. We need to do it all the time though. Except, perhaps, when we are up against a markedly superior opponent such as Barca or Bayern, then and only then can I understand conservatism. We don't need it otherwise. We have good enough players to beat anyone in this league.

[Niall_Quinn]

:doh: You really don't understand the difference, do you?

On attack, we were playing the same tactics as we usually would but our players were just on their A game. I can't speak for Chelsea.

Do you think Wenger told them to play faster or intentionally tells them each game not to make runs and not to pass quickly? I mean, when have we not played with as many forward as possible? That's how we always attack but can get caught out when it goes wrong.

Who can know what Wenger says? All we can do is examine the results of whatever he says when we watch the team on the pitch. We have all speculated why we generally play such a slow and purposeless game. It looks like you are saying that most of the time this is down to the players not being on their A game. This implies we have a very poor collection of players because they therefore only seem to hit their A game once, maybe twice a season. It seems far more likely it is the instructions of the manager that dictate the nature of our performances. This is supported by the final scoreline. We were in a position to annihilate the chavs by scoring several more goals. We didn't. On a one off basis you couldn't read much into that. But we rarely eviscerate the opposition when we get the chance. We'll go 2 or 3 up and then that'll be it, we ease off. This is hardly down to our players suddenly falling off their A game mid-game. Far more likely once again it is the intervention of the manager.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I saw Wenger at the Groucho club about 1am on Sunday morning, he was wearing beige chinos and sandals without socks (don't ask me why). I congratulated him and asked him what his game plan had been, he came out with his usual spiel of getting the players to believe in their own quality and to have faith in the way they want to play.

After a few lines of chang and a couple of tequillas, he basically said it was a bit like a souffle....you do the same thing over and over again and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. He then went on to admit that he'd spent most of Friday during training on his phone playing Web Sudoku and having a what's app conversation with Patrick Vieira swapping anecodes about Sonia Tatar.

A few drinks later he becomes maudlin and brooding, he wants to know why Giroud is facebook friends with his daughter.

[Niall_Quinn]

I saw Wenger at the Groucho club about 1am on Sunday morning, he was wearing beige chinos and sandals without socks (don't ask me why). I congratulated him and asked him what his game plan had been, he came out with his usual spiel of getting the players to believe in their own quality and to have faith in the way they want to play.

After a few lines of chang and a couple of tequillas, he basically said it was a bit like a souffle....you do the same thing over and over again and sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't. He then went on to admit that he'd spent most of Friday during training on his phone playing Web Sudoku and having a what's app conversation with Patrick Vieira swapping anecodes about Sonia Tatar.

A few drinks later he becomes maudlin and brooding, he wants to know why Giroud is facebook friends with his daughter.

The Groucho club was closed on Sunday, for renovations.

Busted!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The Groucho club was closed on Sunday, for renovations.

Busted!

It was closed during the day Sunday, and why do you think that was?

[Niall_Quinn]

It was closed during the day Sunday, and why do you think that was?

Because Ozil stank out the place?

[GP]

I saw Ozil in Aldi yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.
He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.

[Niall_Quinn]

I saw Ozil in Aldi yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything.
He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?”
I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying.
The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter.
When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.

Probably the strongest indicator yet that he's gone next transfer window.

[Penguin]

I thought Ozil was brilliant on Saturday. Chelsea's midfield couldn't handle him, especially Kante who was chasing his shadow all game. That turn by Ozil in the build up to his goal was the icing on the cake :lol:

I have to agree with Herbert on this one though, as good as we were Chelsea defended like spastics. I would show Holding a video of just Luiz's performance to show him what NOT to do in almost any situation. He has always been a ball chasey defender like Kolo and Vermaelen, but worse.


It's great play from Iwobi to make that turn and slip Bellerin in. He spots the run and plays the risky pass. He could have played it back out ignoring the run to try and keep possession. We'll always be a team that plays possession football under Wenger but I don't know how his coaching can stop a player from picking out a good run when playing so deep in our opponents half. It has to come down to individual choices at some point.

For example, watch Theo's movement for the build up. He makes a good run into the box as soon as he sees Ozil getting a touch and he calls for the pass. But Ozil plays a simple pass to Iwobi who's not really in a great position to do damage with his back to goal. It results in the sort of tipp tappy moment you despise and would probably curse if that move breaks down. Could Ozil not have played the ball first time to Theo? Did he see the run? Is it too much of a difficult angle and pass? I don't know. Would a pass to his left for Monreal to whip in a cross be better? Who knows. But it results in a goal. Heck of a pass from Iwobi to find Bellerin, great movement from Theo and perfect cross from Hector. 2-0.

Ozil could have played Theo in there and probably should have. He's among the best in the business at seeing that sort of pass so it's no big deal that he didn't on this occasion. Although if you watch it again, Azpilicueta spots Theo's run and follows him, which left space for Bellerin to run into and the rest is history.

I think you're downplaying the quick, purposeful short passing though. It kept Chelsea's players off our toes and gave us that little bit of space between the lines for Iwobi to turn, look up and play in Hector. It was a great move all round.

[Power n Glory]

Who can know what Wenger says? All we can do is examine the results of whatever he says when we watch the team on the pitch. We have all speculated why we generally play such a slow and purposeless game. It looks like you are saying that most of the time this is down to the players not being on their A game. This implies we have a very poor collection of players because they therefore only seem to hit their A game once, maybe twice a season. It seems far more likely it is the instructions of the manager that dictate the nature of our performances. This is supported by the final scoreline. We were in a position to annihilate the chavs by scoring several more goals. We didn't. On a one off basis you couldn't read much into that. But we rarely eviscerate the opposition when we get the chance. We'll go 2 or 3 up and then that'll be it, we ease off. This is hardly down to our players suddenly falling off their A game mid-game. Far more likely once again it is the intervention of the manager.

It’s not down to the managers instructions. The clichéd phrases from Wenger we constantly mock, ‘playing with the handbrake/lacking sharpness’ suggests he’s not happy with the pace and caution we often display. Sometimes it’s down to the players. If Ox were playing instead of Iwobi, maybe we wouldn’t have scored a 2nd goal because he takes a heavy touch and then they score at the other end to make it 1-1. Fine margins. Sometimes it’s down to the opposition breaking being organised, disrupting up play with fouls….I don’t think it’s a case of us intentionally going into games looking flat.

Seems to be a mix up between tactics/instructions and mental preparation. I don’t think Wenger prepares the team mentally and he often has no answer when plan A doesn’t work. What we saw against Chelsea was Plan A. It’s no coincidence that this was our best performance since Man Utd. The players said after that game that they had a meeting and G’d themselves up for it. Not sure what the mood in the camp was like for Chelsea but we sometimes pull it out the bag for the big occasions. I wouldn’t be surprised if look flat in our next games against Basel and Burnley. How many times have we seen this before? It’s been going on for years. Tactically, attack wise at least, I don’t think he instructs them to do anything differently for most games. This certainly isn’t an example of that. Some games we’ve seen us soak up pressure and counter attack but that also often depends on our opposition and how good they are on the ball. In most cases it’s the same stuff. We won’t see our wingers staying wide and attacking the full back to create space, we definitely don’t play it long, it’s always us trying to play in our opponents half zipping passes around. I’ve watched games where we start well with the right tempo but one bad and we get hit it a counter. It happens.

[Power n Glory]

I thought Ozil was brilliant on Saturday. Chelsea's midfield couldn't handle him, especially Kante who was chasing his shadow all game. That turn by Ozil in the build up to his goal was the icing on the cake :lol:

I have to agree with Herbert on this one though, as good as we were Chelsea defended like spastics. I would show Holding a video of just Luiz's performance to show him what NOT to do in almost any situation. He has always been a ball chasey defender like Kolo and Vermaelen, but worse.



Ozil could have played Theo in there and probably should have. He's among the best in the business at seeing that sort of pass so it's no big deal that he didn't on this occasion. Although if you watch it again, Azpilicueta spots Theo's run and follows him, which left space for Bellerin to run into and the rest is history.

I think you're downplaying the quick, purposeful short passing though. It kept Chelsea's players off our toes and gave us that little bit of space between the lines for Iwobi to turn, look up and play in Hector. It was a great move all round.

I'm not downplaying it. It's just an example of the fine margins. If that move breaks down, we'll be accused of overplaying. I have no problem with our short passing game. It's just when it works some will say it's purposeful but when it fails, we overplay and it's tippy tappy. That's the sort of thing I don't agree with.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think we are holding on to a somewhat arbitrary and subjective idea of the phrase 'tippy tappy'. Surely it alludes to the pass, pass, pass and one more pass ideology rather than giving a full picture of a gameplan or tactics.... it basically ignores what is or isn't happening off the ball, including positioning and runs made. I tend to agree with P n G in that on a good day it is lauded and on a bad day where the opposition don't cross the half way line until a counter attack emerges it is ridiculed.

Just as on a good day when team mates spot a Theo run and give him the ball Theo and the assister may be praised and another day when the run isn't spotted people will recite Theo's touches of the ball in 90 minutes and say he went missing. That's not to say all criticism of him is unjust but I think the difference between the sublime and lame isn't always as great as we think.

Penguin's line about down playing quick incisive passing kinda brings P n G's idea about application (or perhaps more specifically execution) into relevance.

[Niall_Quinn]

If these players so routinely fail to execute Wenger's game plan, why does he sit on his hands for 68 minutes every match without lifting a finger to change things? Isn't it his job to make sure they execute his plan? And if they are only good enough to do it once or twice a season then isn't it time we got a whole new team?

There's a strand running through the aftermath if this match that suggests we were at our best and the chavs were at their worst and hence it appeared as if we put in a good performance whereas in reality we put in the same performance as always but this time circumstances worked in our favour. And yet, there's nothing to suggest any of that is true. We played at a much higher temp, for starters. And we pressed much more effectively than usual, for some of the match anyway. I recall mentioning during the game when the press started to drop off. It was very obvious. If the players decided to do this off their own backs then that again casts doubt on the manager's performance.

Wouldn't it just be easier to look back at the games where we have played well (not so hard as there haven't been that many of late) and compare what we did in those games to what we tend to do on a regular basis? There's a strong contrast. When we play direct and at pace we are dangerous in the opposition third, even though we might ship a few goals in return but when has that ever been different? When we are negative, when we slow the game, when we fear shipping those goals then not only are we less effective in the final third but the defence also suffers because we just don't do that part of the game very well.

This thread started out suggesting we don't need Ozil. Saturday showed we can't live without him. Now we've moved on to other theories that just don't stack up against what is being witnessed on the pitch. I'm sure if you asked 90% of the fans they will be able to tell you the difference between our play on Saturday and the stuff we are normally subjected to. Night and day.

Whatever, it won't come down to us it'll come down to Wenger. If Saturday helps him find his balls then great news. If not then we know where his conservatism lands us, yet another 4th place trophy.

[Thierrymon]

Hearing news that Ozil may have signed a new, long-term contract with the club. Great news if so.

Not only a huge talent for the club but also the type of player that can be used to attract other talented German players to the club.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Hearing news that Ozil may have signed a new, long-term contract with the club. Great news if so.

Not only a huge talent for the club but also the type of player that can be used to attract other talented German players to the club.

I've been burned by twitter before to fully trust it yet but good news if true. Would be more trusting if it was geoffarsenal instead of AFCCAMDEN reporting it, mind you.

You can tell that he loves it in London from his social media accounts; it's very cosmopolitan (large Turkish community) and similar to the German cities he grew up in. Sanchez is still holding out apparently I guess with him being South American he's probably less as attached to London as Ozil is so we'll have to persuade him more using money or results/performances/silverware.

[Kano]

He's done a madness bruv

[AFC Leveller]

He wants the number 10 shirt.

[Gooner23]

Give it to him, Jack can do one

[GP]

Let him have it.

[Niall_Quinn]

More like it's disrespectful of him to want the #10 shirt when he knows a player already has it. What difference does it make anyway?

[Goonermerree]

I'd be very surprised to see Jack in an Arsenal shirt again let alone the Arsenal number 10 shirt.

[Niall_Quinn]

Maybe so, but right now that's his shirt and I wonder why it would be such a big deal for another player to have it? Probably more media nonsense.

[mastermind84]

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/ufdup.png

[Power n Glory]

http://www.thecoli.com/styles/default/xenforo/smilies/ufdup.png

:lol: I'll cut you some slack with that meme. Not everyone will get the reference but that's pretty funny.

I caught his goal late last night on Twitter.

Are people now starting to see that this guy is capable of more? That was beautiful.

[Power n Glory]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/29/mesut-ozil-regrets-joining-arsenal-and-has-told-real-madrid-he-wants-to-return-to-the-club-6291367/

Would he go back to Real Madrid now?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/29/mesut-ozil-regrets-joining-arsenal-and-has-told-real-madrid-he-wants-to-return-to-the-club-6291367/

Would he go back to Real Madrid now?


The guy seems to me like someone who lacks in class, and I can easily believe he was the one who leaked to Mourinho about our preparation for the City game in January 2015

Just as easily could be a way of getting more money out of us.

I'm unequivocal I think as a footballer his talent and passing ability is almost unsurpassed, but if he's going to be a cunt than ultimately he's not getting any younger and I'm not sure anyone is irreplaceable.

[Letters]

Sounds like bullshit to me.

[Goonermerree]

I don't think Ozil wanted to leave RM in the first pace, and the fans weren't too pleased with it either, I think he was sold to free up funds for Bale, could be wrong on that one. If his heart is not in the club, he won't play well, so get some money while we can I say. Six months down the line he can go on a free, his price will be reduced already.

[Power n Glory]

It’s a speculation piece. Ozil wasn’t happy to be sold. Not sure if he’s happy now. It seems that way. Heard he was buying a house here but the story comes from Marca. Either Real Madrid want him and are testing the waters or someone else has sent this over to the press to run with.

Will Ozil bite. That’s the question. It sounded like he was close to agreeing a new deal.

[Power n Glory]

The guy seems to me like someone who lacks in class, and I can easily believe he was the one who leaked to Mourinho about our preparation for the City game in January 2015

Just as easily could be a way of getting more money out of us.

I'm unequivocal I think as a footballer his talent and passing ability is almost unsurpassed, but if he's going to be a cunt than ultimately he's not getting any younger and I'm not sure anyone is irreplaceable.

So we don't need Ozil? :lol:

You already know my thoughts on him. Talented but doesn't really push himself to make more use of his abilities.

But it might not be him or his camp who leaked this story. We all knew he didn't want to come here. He might be over that now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So we don't need Ozil? :lol:

You already know my thoughts on him. Talented but doesn't really push himself to make more use of his abilities.

But it might not be him or his camp who leaked this story. We all knew he didn't want to come here. He might be over that now.

We arguably don't NEED any one individual who plays for the club

Would I rather have him here than not have him here? Absolutely

But I don't think any one player is instrumental to the clubs future performances and whatever I think of Ozil, I don't think I have ever maintained the opposite.

[Kano]

Of course we need him in this team, as he's central to how it plays.

Irreplaceable? Of course not. No one is. We wouldn't have grown as a club since our inception if that was the case.

Hopefully he stays but we'll see.

[Power n Glory]

I think the key position for our style of play is and always has been central midfield. We get that wrong and it all falls down. We’ve seen a serious shift in how we play whenever we bring in a different style of player. From Vieira to Cesc and now Cazorla. It often all falls down in the engine room if we can’t build an attack.

When we moved Cesc to play the number 10 role and he wasn’t collecting the ball from the midfield as we would when playing as CM we struggled. Cazorla dropping back to play as a CM instead of AM has made him an essential player for us but it’s a shame it’s come so late on his career. Same goes for when we’d play Rosicky there.

Ozil –I’m not sure he’s central to how we play. With Sanchez now dropping deep to rack up the assists, I starting to think we could get away with someone like Wilshere or Iwobi as the number 10. It’s more of a support role now. I’d prefer a better player if Ozil were to leave but I think we need to address that Santi Cazorla role asap.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

It's fucking Marca guys .... literally Real Madrid's PR Machine. Since when do we take any thing those guys say seriously.

At worst it's just his agent or a member of his entourage floating a brief rumour just to up his negotiating position. Said it before, but I genuinely think both Alexis and Ozil love it here.

Good money, first team starters, great fans, fantastic city to live in (strong economy and you don't see the visible poverty on the street as you do in Spain), a professional & modern club (with facilities to reflect that), none of the daily intrusion into your the personal life you get from the Spanish rags Marca/AS/El Mundo, low taxes (unless Corbyn gets in) etc etc etc ........ the only thing lacking is perhaps more silverware and doing better in the CL (which is why the PSG result is so grating) but as the likes of Pogba, Mkhiryran etc etc have shown, that's not even the be all and end all as long as the money is there.

Fuck your socialist wage structure and just fucking pay them what they want Wenger.



By the way I do kind of agree with you PnG, Ozil is definitely more replaceable than Alexis however if only for purely political reasons we absolutely CAN NOT let Ozil go. He was our first "big name" signing and it would send completely the wrong message to the football community about our brand and the appeal of our club. Not to mention make the likes of Alexis, Kosiencly think twice about signing deals with us in the future.

[selassie]

I think Marca are stirring pot, it's what they do best.

I see where TEG is coming from with his post above but I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that both Ozil and Sanchez are happy here, I think they are relatively settled but I think we are going to need to break the bank to retain either of them.

They both hold all the cards in these negotiations, they both know and the club should know that if we don't play ball they will both be off.

As TEG said, we just need to pay both of these guys the market rate, if 250k per week is what they want then that's what they should be paid, they are both worth it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil and Alexis are completely irreplaceable. The reason why is simple. If we aren't prepared to pay 250k a week to keep them then we can't afford or won't pay for suitable replacements. These two would already be tied down if they played for any other major club. With us, we're still living in the past. Sure, we love all the benefits of this new money era such as the big TV deals and the fuck off mega ticket prices. But when it comes to ponying up the costs attached to those benefits then it's back into scrimping and scraping mode. Whether the story is true or not, and a combination of the Metro and Marca almost guarantees it is created from thin air, the real problem is we still aren't a serious club when it comes to competing at the top. The stated reasons behind the stadium move, the "fuck me, are you serious" ticket prices and the years of putting up with bargain bucket transfer windows - all lies. This club has zero intention of competing at the top of the game. We're as far away as we ever were from properly competing in the CL and we have shown season after season, money or no money, that when an opportunity presents itself we neither have the personnel nor the bottle to grab it. 250kpw is of course lunacy, but that's the going rate for top tier talent. That's about 25mill a year between the pair of them, or 2/3rds of a Mustafi or a Xhaka - decidedly average players by comparison.

We have no problem paying outrageous Wenger's wages of course. And we'll have no problem resigning this bean counter masquerading as a football manager for another 3 torturous years.

[fakeyank]

No worries peeps, we got Ramsey who can play there.

:ilt:

[Power n Glory]

I think Marca are stirring pot, it's what they do best.

I see where TEG is coming from with his post above but I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that both Ozil and Sanchez are happy here, I think they are relatively settled but I think we are going to need to break the bank to retain either of them.

They both hold all the cards in these negotiations, they both know and the club should know that if we don't play ball they will both be off.

As TEG said, we just need to pay both of these guys the market rate, if 250k per week is what they want then that's what they should be paid, they are both worth it.

We need to keep Alexis without question. Now that’s he’s slotted into the striker role and looking at the shape of the market in that area, he can’t be replaced unless we’re willing to part with some serious cash. Pace, strength, mobility, desire, work rate, finishing long range or short, assists….the complete package.

[Marc Overmars]

It would set us back years if Ozil and Sanchez left.

These are the 2 highest profile players we've arguably ever signed. If they didn't feel they could compete for major honours with us then the message that would send out would be incredibly damaging. Money is no longer the trump card it used to be, everyone can pay OTT, not everyone can promise to challenge at the very top though.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil leaving us just looks bad.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ozil leaving us just looks bad.

Everything is all up in the air, I know many cynically believe that Wenger will be here after next season come what may but i'm not convinced that's the case.

I think the board would always offer him a new contract come what may, but I don't believe for a second that the changing attitude from fans during runs of bad forms has not had a withering affect on him.

If this season goes pair shaped as most of us ultimately believe it will, things will be worse than they were March/April time especially if a contract remains unsigned and Fans believe that venting their dissatisfaction might actually have some leverage (i don't particularly like protesting myself but for sure i would consider it in such circumstances)

And if Wenger does go, than ultimately everything is up in the air, the prospect of a younger, dynamic manager coming in might cause Ozil to rethink (if he is planning to leave) or it might give him more justification to leave.

I get the distinct impression Sanchez will sign, but Ozil as with Wenger....great vast chasm of uncertainty.

[selassie]

We need to keep Alexis without question. Now that’s he’s slotted into the striker role and looking at the shape of the market in that area, he can’t be replaced unless we’re willing to part with some serious cash. Pace, strength, mobility, desire, work rate, finishing long range or short, assists….the complete package.

Yeah if we lose either player it will set us back. We may as well pay them the big bucks because we won't replace either player adequately and besides...we'll be a weaker team without either of them.

The message it will send out if either player leaves won't be good either, we should be able to retain all our best players now, we have absolutely no excuses not to pay them what they are worth because the money is there.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil can be replaced. He needs to rack up the assists this season or start banging in the goals. We're not seeing anything exceptional besides that beautiful goal against Ludogorets.

[Goonermerree]

Ozil and Alexis are completely irreplaceable. The reason why is simple. If we aren't prepared to pay 250k a week to keep them then we can't afford or won't pay for suitable replacements. These two would already be tied down if they played for any other major club. With us, we're still living in the past. Sure, we love all the benefits of this new money era such as the big TV deals and the fuck off mega ticket prices. But when it comes to ponying up the costs attached to those benefits then it's back into scrimping and scraping mode. Whether the story is true or not, and a combination of the Metro and Marca almost guarantees it is created from thin air, the real problem is we still aren't a serious club when it comes to competing at the top. The stated reasons behind the stadium move, the "fuck me, are you serious" ticket prices and the years of putting up with bargain bucket transfer windows - all lies. This club has zero intention of competing at the top of the game. We're as far away as we ever were from properly competing in the CL and we have shown season after season, money or no money, that when an opportunity presents itself we neither have the personnel nor the bottle to grab it. 250kpw is of course lunacy, but that's the going rate for top tier talent. That's about 25mill a year between the pair of them, or 2/3rds of a Mustafi or a Xhaka - decidedly average players by comparison.

We have no problem paying outrageous Wenger's wages of course. And we'll have no problem resigning this bean counter masquerading as a football manager for another 3 torturous years.

Couldn't agree more. Wenger has paid kids too much in the past and very few of them have come through. Our top players see what they can earn at a top club and see what little squirts are earning and they're off.

[Power n Glory]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2679500-arsenal-transfer-news-mesut-ozil-hints-at-real-madrid-return-latest-rumours

Marca at it again. Ozil hasn't ruled out a return to Madrid. Someone is plotting something.

[mastermind84]

Alexis would not be having the season he is currently showing with Ozil's movement. Its undeniable at this point.

[fakeyank]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2679500-arsenal-transfer-news-mesut-ozil-hints-at-real-madrid-return-latest-rumours

Marca at it again. Ozil hasn't ruled out a return to Madrid. Someone is plotting something.

If Pogba is worth 100 million, then Ozil is easily worth 150 million. If Real pay that, they are more than welcome to take him and go.

[Kano]

Pogba had 3 years left on his contract, Ozil 18 months.

If he does leave, I'd be surprised if it was Real. Bayern/PSG/Juve are more likely options.

[Marc Overmars]

I think PSG is the likely move if he does indeed want to call it quits.

What kind of reaction would he garner if he did leave? I know our fanbase isn't as sold on him as they are with Alexis.

RVC level hate?

[GP]

Depends really.

RVP only gets hate because of how he left and where he went.

[Niall_Quinn]

Alexis would not be having the season he is currently showing with Ozil's movement. Its undeniable at this point.

And vice versa. These two have struck up a really good understanding this season. Losing one could be like losing both. I hope the fat, old blood suckers upstairs get their wallets out. Either this club is finally going somewhere or we're commencing on reset #99.

[Power n Glory]

I think PSG is the likely move if he does indeed want to call it quits.

What kind of reaction would he garner if he did leave? I know our fanbase isn't as sold on him as they are with Alexis.

RVC level hate?

PSG? I can't see it. Spain or Germany if he were to leave.

[mastermind84]

And vice versa. These two have struck up a really good understanding this season. Losing one could be like losing both. I hope the fat, old blood suckers upstairs get their wallets out. Either this club is finally going somewhere or we're commencing on reset #99.

i agree.

They are basically our strike partnership.

[Marc Overmars]

He could go back to Germany or Spain and become another cog in the never ending wheel of success, but you often hear players talking about "the project" of a club like PSG, it could be more enticing for them to do something new. Especially for someone like Ozil who has already played for the biggest club in the world.

No doubt he will have his pick of the clubs though.

[Power n Glory]

He could go back to Germany or Spain and become another cog in the never ending wheel of success, but you often hear players talking about "the project" of a club like PSG, it could be more enticing for them to do something new. Especially for someone like Ozil who has already played for the biggest club in the world.

No doubt he will have his pick of the clubs though.

I hear that point but I don't think Ozil is at that stage of his career. If anything, we've kind of been his project club. It's the perfect time for him now at Arsenal to step out from the shadows of those at Real and not just be a cog in the wheel. But I'm not sure if he's that driven for the recognition in the same way Sanchez is. I can see him going back to Real. It's not as if he wanted to leave that system either.

[Kano]

I think PSG is the likely move if he does indeed want to call it quits.

What kind of reaction would he garner if he did leave? I know our fanbase isn't as sold on him as they are with Alexis.

RVC level hate?
Probably not because the fingers will be pointed at Wenger and the board for either failure to win things or pay him enough. Plus players like RVC and Cesc were seen as 'part of the fold' young players developed from young with hopes they'd see out their career here (however unrealistic that was). If he left and had to face us again I think he'd get a decent or just indifferent reaction.

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's just win the bloody CL and put all this talk to rest. I mean FFS Wenger! Come on man! 20 years trying, isn't it about time? Stranger things have happened. Just pick the right fucking teams, have a go at analysing the opposition and come up with a few tactics, stop doing the 10 player rotation thing, settle on your first 11 and add some sanity to your squad rotation policies. Then hold a press conference and state you are going to win the fucking thing, no doubts, it's already in the bag. Just like you did when you said we'd go the season unbeaten. Everyone will laugh, so what. Make the fucking players believe it. Pick your go-to guys, Alexis, Ozil, Cech, Kos, Theo, Ramsey. Make them feel like leaders at the club. Enough of this stupid shit about captains not being important - THEY ARE! Convince these players we're doing something this year and then let them drag along the rest. Cut it out with the stupid technical perfection and beauty bullshit. Flamini was not a beautiful specimen of technical perfection when he held down the full back slot all the way to an unlucky loss to Barca last time we made it to a final.

You just don't have the time left to be fucking around any more. Show the players you aren't fucking around and they will stay and play for you. And the fans will get behind you. And we'll fucking achieve something.

WAKE UP!

[Power n Glory]

This is the same game we've been playing for a number of years now when it comes to contracts. I don't blame RVP or Cesc for wanting to leave Arsenal. If they'd have stayed they'd still probably be waiting for Prem titles. Henry went through the same, Pires, Vieira...all fought the same battle with Wenger and this structure. We're too slow to adapt to change and it shows in our transfer policy.

I only have a problem with RVP acting like we never existed and that 'little boy' of his crying for Utd. But I'll always remember the build up before he was leaving with all the press stories from the club preparing the fans for the worse. Wenger saying we wouldn't break. Our wage structure for an aging player because we won't get the full value from his contract. Some bullshit equation he chalked up about players getting maximum money when their performances start to decline due to age. With that line of thinking, you can only imagine what's going through his ahead with these negotiations for Ozil and Sanchez. We were also leaking stories suggesting we couldn't match the wages of a club man city because of they had infinite resources... Etc. All true. But we were peddling these bullshit stories before RVP said he wanted to leave, during the season he was banging in goals and before a number was even put on the table. No news of RVP rejecting a contract even came out. The funny thing is, after we sold him to Utd, Wenger comes out and says we were trying to attract PSG to table a bid. See how that works?

Hence why we should watching these stories with Ozil with close intent. I wouldn't blame Ozil at all. We've seen this play out enough times already.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is the same game we've been playing for a number of years now when it comes to contracts. I don't blame RVP or Cesc for wanting to leave Arsenal. If they'd have stayed they'd still probably be waiting for Prem titles. Henry went through the same, Pires, Vieira...all fought the same battle with Wenger and this structure. We're too slow to adapt to change and it shows in our transfer policy.

I only have a problem with RVP acting like we never existed and that 'little boy' of his crying for Utd. But I'll always remember the build up before he was leaving with all the press stories from the club preparing the fans for the worse. Wenger saying we wouldn't break. Our wage structure for an aging player because we won't get the full value from his contract. Some bullshit equation he chalked up about players getting maximum money when their performances start to decline due to age. With that line of thinking, you can only imagine what's going through his ahead with these negotiations for Ozil and Sanchez. We were also leaking stories suggesting we couldn't match the wages of a club man city because of they had infinite resources... Etc. All true. But we were peddling these bullshit stories before RVP said he wanted to leave, during the season he was banging in goals and before a number was even put on the table. No news of RVP rejecting a contract even came out. The funny thing is, after we sold him to Utd, Wenger comes out and says we were trying to attract PSG to table a bid. See how that works?

Hence why we should watching these stories with Ozil with close intent. I wouldn't blame Ozil at all. We've seen this play out enough times already.

Agreed that this is getting very tired. Either we're a football club or a trust find for the directors. We can't be both. Every penny should be poured back into the future success of the club. Do that and eventually there will be too many pennies and the leeches can feed. But this bullshit about profit today at the expense of all else is why we don't want these fuckers at the club. So it's time for them to choose. And if they make the wrong choice, the non-sporting choice, then fuck them and they deserve the massive backlash that will come if we see Ozil and Alexis walking out the door. You can't be a big club if you can't hold on to your players. They surely realise this? I understand they don't want to be held to ransom and this is why it's about more than the money. This board and this manager need to start earning their keep. They need to put up enough money, maybe not as much as the gypos would stump, and they also need to show the players why it's worth staying at the place. Not more bullshit about jam tomorrow, but cold hard facts on what we are doing today and how each players and (god forbid) each fan plays a part in that. They are so aloof these fuckers. So complacent. So confident that this gravy train will run forever. Well there are ex-die-hards right here on this site that couldn't give much of a shit anymore and that's contagious.

[Power n Glory]

If we lose either player, replace them garbage and Wenger has signed a new deal, I think that will be the straw that breaks the camels back. The fans are tired of it.

[AFC Leveller]

I get the feeling that Alexis and Ozil are waiting to see how we get on this season before commiting. If we win the league or reach the semis or final of the CL then i think they will sign and stay but if we bottle it in February and do that thing where we lose the CL last 16 game, FA cup and a couple of crucial PL games then i cannot see them staying (and the manager for that matter).

[Letters]

I think that's about right and I wouldn't blame them either.

[Goonermerree]

Maybe they're waiting to see if we buy some more class players.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/12/07/arsenal-willing-sell-mesut-ozil-does-not-lowerwage-demands/

More stories about wage demands. It's really not looking good.

[Goonermerree]

I can't open that link, but Alexis and Ozil could command top wages at any of the big clubs, so if we want to keep them, we have to pay. We pay youth and squad players too much money, but won't pay the stars what they're worth. (Disclaimer, I know they get too much money, but it's the market)

[Kano]

I get the feeling that Alexis and Ozil are waiting to see how we get on this season before commiting. If we win the league or reach the semis or final of the CL then i think they will sign and stay but if we bottle it in February and do that thing where we lose the CL last 16 game, FA cup and a couple of crucial PL games then i cannot see them staying (and the manager for that matter).

I think so too. Money will come into it but they will also want to see we are being truly competitive too. In the meantime because there are only nonces parading as coaches to talk about inbetween the games, the press will get to work on their usual non-informative stream of bullshit articles to keep the clicks chugging along. But at the end of the day if they go, they go. Things will move on and we'll have to change and adapt.

[Letters]

It's up to us though. I think they're happy enough at the club but we need to show the right ambition and pay the right wages.

[Power n Glory]

All too easy to dismiss these stories as click bait. We shouldn't take the information as gospel but I question where the information is coming from. Most stories in the press just serve as PR and there is agenda behind the story. Either the agents or a club keep feeding the press with the bullshit. Someone is trying to engineer a move away.

[Kano]

It's up to us though. I think they're happy enough at the club but we need to show the right ambition and pay the right wages.

There are a million ways to skin a cat when it comes to the finance packages being put together. Ambition is there but it's whether or not Wenger's management of the squad can get them over the line. The likelihood is that it won't be and they'll be off. But they won't leave at the same time, there's no way that is going to happen.

[selassie]

There are a million ways to skin a cat when it comes to the finance packages being put together. Ambition is there but it's whether or not Wenger's management of the squad can get them over the line. The likelihood is that it won't be and they'll be off. But they won't leave at the same time, there's no way that is going to happen.

Kano, It's out of the clubs control...if they refuse to sign then they'll both be put on the market next summer and will be sold as and when the offers come in, it could well be at the same time.

We won't allow either player to walk for free, we have invested too much money in them.

I personally think the damage has already been done...we have failed to show real sporting ambition since either of them have been here...

[Niall_Quinn]

Let's do this. If Ozil and Alexis stay and we add another player of that calibre in the summer then Wenger and Gazidis stay. If not, both follow our players out the door. Do you think Ozil and Alexis would be signed by now if those were the terms? People might ask, why should the top executives leave because players leave. At any other club that is selling itself as an elite footballing outfit it would be a valid question, but not at Arsenal. We've been through this how many times now? Are we really going to be sitting here in 3 years time with the same people at the top, having watched our best players piss off again, and waiting on Player X (signed from Club Y for just a bit less than other clubs might pay) to propel us to a title? Somebody has to pay the price if we are forced to go around that loop again. Another false dawn for the club should mean sunset for the guys who have had every opportunity to prove they can push this club forward. The fans need to avoid hanging on Ozil and Alexis' every last word (and it probably isn't even their words) and instead make it clear to the club that this summer is a referendum on the future of Wenger and Co. Of course they'll probably try and sneak a contract in for Wenger during the season. I hope it's a riot every week if they retain this guy yet fail to retain staff we actually need.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsene Wenger is adamant Alexis Sanchez and Mesut Ozil will see out their contracts at Arsenal rather than be sold.

The two star men in Wenger's side are in the final 18 months of their deals and the club will have to smash its existing wage structure to tie them to extended deals.

With Sanchez understood to be on £130,000 a week and Ozil the top earner on £140,000, it is reported that they want new terms that would at least double their money.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4012502/Arsenal-news-conference-LIVE-Arsene-Wenger-speaks-ahead-Premier-League-game-against-Stoke-City.html

Highly unlikely the club will sit there and watch the transfer fees collapse to zero.

[Power n Glory]

It's the old song and dance to try and jack up the transfer offers. We have to make it look like we're committed to keeping them.

I might losing sight of the real objective here. Forget Sanchez and Ozil...Wenger has to go. Even they decide to sign new contracts, if we still have Wenger as coach we're still in trouble.

[Goonermerree]

We need to keep them and add another 2 quality players. It will cost some money though...

[Kano]

Kano, It's out of the clubs control...if they refuse to sign then they'll both be put on the market next summer and will be sold as and when the offers come in, it could well be at the same time.

We won't allow either player to walk for free, we have invested too much money in them.

I personally think the damage has already been done...we have failed to show real sporting ambition since either of them have been here...

I think the opposite. They'll sell one and if needs be let the other one piddle off for free. I can't ever remember seeing two of our main guys leave at the same time - except maybe Overmars and Petit but that was in another lifetime it seems. And if they do leave at the same time or one before and the other after, so be it. The club isn't going to fold and shut it gates. Even if they extend their contracts at some point they are going to leave, so the club will have to adapt at some point anyway. Hopefully later rather than sooner but it is what it is. Far more important things to rage about than this. I'm certainly not going to let the media hold my concerns to hostage. That's the easy trap to fall into in and outside of sport.

[Power n Glory]

I think the opposite. They'll sell one and if needs be let the other one piddle off for free. I can't ever remember seeing two of our main guys leave at the same time - except maybe Overmars and Petit but that was in another lifetime it seems. And if they do leave at the same time or one before and the other after, so be it. The club isn't going to fold and shut it gates. Even if they extend their contracts at some point they are going to leave, so the club will have to adapt at some point anyway. Hopefully later rather than sooner but it is what it is. Far more important things to rage about than this. I'm certainly not going to let the media hold my concerns to hostage. That's the easy trap to fall into in and outside of sport.

You're forgetting the following.

Van Persie and Song.
Cesc, Nasri and Clichy.
Ade and Toure.

Nowhere near as good as Alexis and Ozil but these were first team starters.

[Marc Overmars]

Highly unlikely the club will sit there and watch the transfer fees collapse to zero.

They're worth what, 100m for the pair? Of course they'll be sold if the right offer comes in and they don't want to sign. It would just be dumb to let them swan off on a free.

[Goonermerree]

You're forgetting the following.

Van Persie and Song.
Cesc, Nasri and Clichy.
Ade and Toure.http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3777&page=24

Nowhere near as good as Alexis and Ozil but these were first team starters.

I thought about those players as well. I thought that was because of the stadium debt at the time for the earlier ones. We will just look like a selling club again if they leave.

[Power n Glory]

I thought about those players as well. I thought that was because of the stadium debt at the time for the earlier ones. We will just look like a selling club again if they leave.

If we can't rape a club for £150m to £200m for the pair then it will really make us look weak.

[Power n Glory]

They're worth what, 100m for the pair? Of course they'll be sold if the right offer comes in and they don't want to sign. It would just be dumb to let them swan off on a free.

When clubs are paying around that mark for Bale, Higuain and Pogba....there is no way we should be accepting £100m for the pair. No way.

[selassie]

I think the opposite. They'll sell one and if needs be let the other one piddle off for free. I can't ever remember seeing two of our main guys leave at the same time - except maybe Overmars and Petit but that was in another lifetime it seems. And if they do leave at the same time or one before and the other after, so be it. The club isn't going to fold and shut it gates. Even if they extend their contracts at some point they are going to leave, so the club will have to adapt at some point anyway. Hopefully later rather than sooner but it is what it is. Far more important things to rage about than this. I'm certainly not going to let the media hold my concerns to hostage. That's the easy trap to fall into in and outside of sport.

All I can say is we will find out one way or another.

If for example we lose both of these guys the message it will send out to our PL and CL rivals will be extremely damaging, we will look like a small time club and it will damage our reputation.

We absolutely should not be losing any of our star players anymore, it's totally unacceptable and we have everything in place to be a highly successful club. Now is the time for us to start showing real ambition and flexing our muscles.

[Marc Overmars]

When clubs are paying around that mark for Bale, Higuain and Pogba....there is no way we should be accepting £100m for the pair. No way.

They're worth more but with a year to run on their deals I doubt we can expect to receive the kind of fees those players went for.

[Power n Glory]

They're worth more but with a year to run on their deals I doubt we can expect to receive the kind of fees those players went for.

You're right and that's why I suspect the club are now trying to attract the highest bid.

[Kano]

All I can say is we will find out one way or another.

If for example we lose both of these guys the message it will send out to our PL and CL rivals will be extremely damaging, we will look like a small time club and it will damage our reputation.

We absolutely should not be losing any of our star players anymore, it's totally unacceptable and we have everything in place to be a highly successful club. Now is the time for us to start showing real ambition and flexing our muscles.

We won't be seen as a small time club, that's just the paranoia fans trap themselves into without stopping think about how we are perceived across the UK and Europe. We'll adapt and move on, as we have done for over 100 years now. We can concern ourselves with doom and gloom about what will happen but our consistency throughout history of being near the top of the game is far clearer than the unknown of the future. I mentioned Petit and Overmars earlier because at the time they were clearly two of our most important players and I remember the shock and panic when they were surprisingly shipped out - but we moved on. Pre-season the media orgy was around Pep and Maureen because they were coming to dominate the league - that hasn't really worked out so far. Klopp and Conte and Pottecheato were going to make sure we sit in 6th place. So much shit is fussed, analysed and discussed and so very little of it pans out that way. Ambition wise, money was spent (finally) to build a good squad and so far it is working out well. if Ozil or Alexis want to leave, then they will and they'll justify it for whatever personal reason suits them best. Like we all do in life. But when - and sooner or later it's a case of when - they do leave, then it's time to adapt, just like club does when key players no longer plays for them.

[Letters]

Kano, It's out of the clubs control...if they refuse to sign then they'll both be put on the market next summer and will be sold as and when the offers come in, it could well be at the same time.

We won't allow either player to walk for free, we have invested too much money in them.

I personally think the damage has already been done...we have failed to show real sporting ambition since either of them have been here...

It's not entirely in our control but neither is it entirely out of our hands. It's like any job negotiations, it's up to the employee to make the decision but the employer's offer (and other competing offer) is a big factor in that decision.
What sporting ambition do you feel we needed to show? We're hardly languishing in mid-table.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Gazidis and Wenger are tuned enough into fan sentiment to know that there would be an open revolt if we allowed either Ozil or Sanchez to leave to a rival. And if the latter especially wanted the fans to accept him receiving a new contract without that much pushback, knows he has to get them to stay. Chips and Kroenke on the other hand ........... those mongs would probably sell them for 100 million combined; they're that clueless. :doh:

I might be naive, but that's the last pillar of hope I'm holding on to. That, and from what we saw with Vardy and Mahrez in the summer, a lot of players don't like upending and moving and would naturally prefer to stay in settled environments. :pray:

It's all because of fucking Man Utd though. They give out these ridiculous mega contracts to big names (250k for Zlatan, 290k for Pogba (after tax so its closer to 400k), 270k for Shrek etc etc) because they don't have CL football, because they have the money from shithouse sponsorship deals (noodle sponsors and Addidas :doh:) and because Ed Woodward is a fucking moron and it just inflates the entire market. :doh:

There was a story that Alexis was using a supposed preposterous offer of 400k from China to help up his demands; I'd like to think that's not true and there's no way he'd actually go to China especially in the prime of his career. I do feel that offers around the ~250k range should be enough for the pair of them so they get parity with the other highest paid superstars in the league as is deserving of their stature.

Alexis especially is irreplaceable. It'd be the height of stupidity to let him go as there isn't another player available in world football who would give what he does; we especially should know that. We spent many summers looking for a world class striker only to not find one and then persisting with Giroud. Not to mention if there was one, he'd cost 70 million + which is ultimately more than what Alexis is demanding.

[Kano]

We could still win a big trophy, offer a stack of money and they still decide to leave us. They could sign another contract and agitate for a move after a season like Henry - there's no way of knowing. There is money to consider. Personal career achievements. Personal experience of wanting to play in another country. And family. There are two sides to the negotiation. We could put down he perfect package and it still might not be enough. We're spending on transfer fees like we never thought we would and currently paying wages above what we've expected in recent memory, so I'm really doubtful money will be the deciding factor here at all.

[Marc Overmars]

Lets just make sure we compete this year, if they still want to go then at least we can have no regrets.

[selassie]

It's not entirely in our control but neither is it entirely out of our hands. It's like any job negotiations, it's up to the employee to make the decision but the employer's offer (and other competing offer) is a big factor in that decision.
What sporting ambition do you feel we needed to show? We're hardly languishing in mid-table.

Aye, all we can do is give them both the best possible offer. I personally think we can and should shatter our wage structure to keep them here, I don't think we need or should be principled in any of this. We have 2 world class players who make us a very good team and we need to pay them accordingly, we are not in a position to contemplate losing either of them.

I feel and have commented on many occasions that Wenger has mismanaged multiple transfer windows, last summer was undoubtedly his best window in a very long time, prior to that he hasn't really added the necessary quality to the squad in sufficient numbers. We have not been ambitious enough in the market and up until this summer haven't addressed glaring holes in the squad.

Finishing top 4 is not enough anymore, we should be properly challenging for titles & trophies.