Match Reaction vs Swansea City (away).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

OG helping us out, twice. :bow:

A stroll really.

[Niall_Quinn]

3 more points but we all know where those points lead.

Some moments from Alexis worth watching, otherwise the predictable huff and puff that came from having two off form midfielders in the centre and a lazy turd of a poser up top.

Otherwise another nothing match.

[Marc Overmars]

Easy

[Niall_Quinn]

Easy

Just how we like it.

[Marc Overmars]

Just how we like it.

Pretty much.

[Globalgunner]

Easy

What has this match got to do with Earth girls?

[Master Splinter]

OG hat-trick :bow:.

[Goonermerree]

We're in third. We need Leicester to win now.

[Ernesto]

I hated the idea of having to go to Swansea needing to win. We've come unstuck there in the past.

Good win. Now to keep going....

[AFC Leveller]

We won, kept a clean sheet and scored 4 so it was a good day.

However we just don't look like champions or even anything special. With the players we have we should be winning much more convincingly.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Win more convincingly are you talking about the score line or the performance ?

[AFC Leveller]

Win more convincingly are you talking about the score line or the performance ?

Performance, obviously.

We don't stump our authority on games or come out with real purpose and we always give the opposition an easy ride first 20 minutes to let them settle. Look at the West Bein game or the Bournemouth one where we either started off terribly or just gifted goals away. The Everton and cit games too where we failed to make the early goal count.

Not to mention the game at OT where we had one shot on goal and never looked like we fancie it on the day.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You'd do well to stamp your authority on a gnat with Xhaka and Ramsey in midfield

We are in trouble with that pair. Hope Egypt gets knocked out of the ACN early

[Power n Glory]

We should really consider playing Ozil further back if it's that bad. It's not as if he's setting the world on fire with assists and although his goal record has improved we could easily get more goals out of Perez or Theo. Just as long as Sanchez plays as our main striker.

[Özim]

Easy win against a rubbish team and two own goals to help us along :good:

[Marc Overmars]

I see Alexis had a little hissy again.

I love that he's super hungry and competitve, god knows we need more characters like him, but he should probably reign it in a little. We've won the game at a canter man, save it for when things have really gone tits up. Plenty of opportunities coming for that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I watched the highlights (on Internet can't be bothered with match of the day)

Have to say, whilst Swansea lost their way a bit after conceeding the first goal they were unlucky today in many respects.

The penalty decision, softer calls been given against us this season. Those two own goals were ridiculously fortuitous

[Ernesto]

I see Alexis had a little hissy again.

I love that he's super hungry and competitve, god knows we need more characters like him, but he should probably reign it in a little. We've won the game at a canter man, save it for when things have really gone tits up. Plenty of opportunities coming for that.

I don't think he's ever liked being subbed off. Only more is being made of it now because of speculation linking him with a move away from Arsenal. A non-starter, this one.

[Gooner23]

Yeah, I want more like him.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

You'd do well to stamp your authority on a gnat with Xhaka and Ramsey in midfield

We are in trouble with that pair. Hope Egypt gets knocked out of the ACN early

An organised team goes a long way in that tournament so they won't be....

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I don't think he's ever liked being subbed off. Only more is being made of it now because of speculation linking him with a move away from Arsenal. A non-starter, this one.

Absolutely.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Easy win against a rubbish team and two own goals to help us along :good:

Interestingly enough you don't tend to benefit from own goals unless you are exerting pressure upon the opposition.

[selassie]

It was a good result and improved our goal difference which was much needed. We're going to need a strong goal difference especially considering how tight it is in the race for top 4 race, we're also going to need to win all our games against lesser teams from now until the end of the season, we need as many points as we can get.

Top 4 hinges as much on how we do in our big games as it does in our lesser games, we still have to go to Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs and if we are honest...I think we're looking at a maximum of 2 points out of those 3 away games, draws at Liverpool and Spurs, loss at Chelsea. The home games against United and City are MUST wins.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Interestingly enough you don't tend to benefit from own goals unless you are exerting pressure upon the opposition.

or you are playing a side with Frank Sinclair in the side

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It was a good result and improved our goal difference which was much needed. We're going to need a strong goal difference especially considering how tight it is in the race for top 4 race, we're also going to need to win all our games against lesser teams from now until the end of the season, we need as many points as we can get.

Top 4 hinges as much on how we do in our big games as it does in our lesser games, we still have to go to Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs and if we are honest...I think we're looking at a maximum of 2 points out of those 3 away games, draws at Liverpool and Spurs, loss at Chelsea. The home games against United and City are MUST wins.

Not interested at all in the top four race, it's the title or don't care. The title is Chelseas' so don't care

[selassie]

Not interested at all in the top four race, it's the title or don't care. The title is Chelseas' so don't care

Herb...I hear you...and I'm of the same mindset to a degree.....

If dropping out of top four meant a fresh change then I'm all for it but I also want us to keep our best players which IMO does to an extent hinge on us credibly challenging for the title or at the very least securing a top four finish.

For what it is worth, I don't think we have what it takes to properly challenge for the title, this team doesn't have the mentality. Even if Chelsea collapse I don't expect us to take the initiative....it will be one of the other teams.

[Niall_Quinn]

The Costa situation will affect the chavs, he's their top goalscorer and they'll miss those goals if he pisses off. I guess they'll get a replacement this month if he goes but no guarantees a new guy will be able to replace the goals. I'd agree yes, the chavs are most likely to win it if Costa stays. But there's a good chance they'll fall back into the pack of inconsistent chasers if he leaves.

Us? We have absolutely no chance whatsoever. Performances just aren't there. Yet another top 4 finish and Wenger signing a new contract so we can keep on going around the loop, that's what our season is about.

[selassie]

The Costa situation will affect the chavs, he's their top goalscorer and they'll miss those goals if he pisses off. I guess they'll get a replacement this month if he goes but no guarantees a new guy will be able to replace the goals. I'd agree yes, the chavs are most likely to win it if Costa stays. But there's a good chance they'll fall back into the pack of inconsistent chasers if he leaves.

Us? We have absolutely no chance whatsoever. Performances just aren't there. Yet another top 4 finish and Wenger signing a new contract so we can keep on going around the loop, that's what our season is about.

Aye, I think the same, though to be fair to them they did look good offensively without him on Saturday.

I think our only saving grace this season is that we are going to really need to be on our game to even secure a top 4 finish given the strong competition, we will not finish top 4 by default...we're going to need to be consistent from now until the end of the season, any march/april collapses and we could well drop out of top 4 contention.

[Özim]

Yes we're winning these games againt lesser teams, but that's to be expected really, Swansea are pretty woeful. Don't think we've played that well at all overall and as we know when it comes to the crunch games we'll collapse as we always do.

Have no belief this year will be any different, it'll be like all the other seasons, if we get anywhere close we'll come up against a decent team and get beaten or drop points like we always do, we're incapable of delivering when it really matters.

Noone can seriously believe this team with this manager is alctually capable of putting a run together (of good results and performances) and also beat the best teams when it comes down to crunch time, this team doesn't have the hunger, desire or guts and determination to deliver when it matters, this all comes from the top. Some teams are winners and some aren't and we fit into the latter category.

[Letters]

Chelsea only drew there #justsaying

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Chelsea only drew there #justsaying

they also won at leicester we drew, won at city we lost,

won at home to spurs we drew

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Herb...I hear you...and I'm of the same mindset to a degree.....

If dropping out of top four meant a fresh change then I'm all for it but I also want us to keep our best players which IMO does to an extent hinge on us credibly challenging for the title or at the very least securing a top four finish.

For what it is worth, I don't think we have what it takes to properly challenge for the title, this team doesn't have the mentality. Even if Chelsea collapse I don't expect us to take the initiative....it will be one of the other teams.

The point of having these type of players is that they can help you win titles. If it's to be believed that Sanchez and Ozil's futures are tied to Wenger's future and they want assurances of him staying before signing.....wouldn't it be better to just let them go. No one is irreplaceable.

Our next away game in the PL is at Stamford Bridge, no-one apart from fans like Ty actually believe we have a chance of winning there so then what are these players for?

[Marc Overmars]

This is what we've been doing all season, comfortably dispatching the pub teams. It's the bare minimum.

Burnley and Watford at home next, another 6 points in the bank then it's Chelsea away. Lets see if anything has changed.

[selassie]

The point of having these type of players is that they can help you win titles. If it's to be believed that Sanchez and Ozil's futures are tied to Wenger's future and they want assurances of him staying before signing.....wouldn't it be better to just let them go. No one is irreplaceable.

Our next away game in the PL is at Stamford Bridge, no-one apart from fans like Ty actually believe we have a chance of winning there so then what are these players for?

If and it's a big IF they are tied to Wenger's future then they can go and we should rebuild properly with a new man in charge.

The point I was trying to make and the ideal scenario would be for us to finish top 4, keep hold of Ozil and Sanchez and Wenger leave. Everybody would be happy then :)

Yeah I hear you on the next away game and having these two, the issue isn't them but Wenger.

[LDG]

Lets see if anything has changed.

:haha:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

If and it's a big IF they are tied to Wenger's future then they can go and we should rebuild properly with a new man in charge.

The point I was trying to make and the ideal scenario would be for us to finish top 4, keep hold of Ozil and Sanchez and Wenger leave. Everybody would be happy then :)

Yeah I hear you on the next away game and having these two, the issue isn't them but Wenger.

I just don't see how Wenger will go unless we finish outside the top four, if the table looked in May like it looks today he will think in his own mind we were in contention all the way because 2nd and 3rd are only one point above us.

[Marc Overmars]

:haha:

Pretty much.

[AFC Leveller]

starting off slowly against the lesser sides we might get away with but if you do that at Chelsea, Liverpool or even Spuds this season then you're 2-3 down in the opening 30 minutes. We have to fix up and start games on the front foot, play to our strengths and move the ball quicker.

If we go to Chelsea and sit back and give the ball away every two minutes, we're fucked.

[Marc Overmars]

starting off slowly against the lesser sides we might get away with but if you do that at Chelsea, Liverpool or even Spuds this season then you're 2-3 down in the opening 30 minutes. We have to fix up and start games on the front foot, play to our strengths and move the ball quicker.

If we go to Chelsea and sit back and give the ball away every two minutes, we're fucked.

Funnily enough, we've started well against all the tough opponents this season, with the exception of United where we stunk for the full 90 mins. Took the lead against Spurs, Liverpool, Everton and City only to choke with incredibly poor second half performances.

[Power n Glory]

There is no rhyme or reason to this. We'll drop points at any given moment and against any team.

On a side note, any news on Giroud's injury?

[AFC Leveller]

Funnily enough, we've started well against all the tough opponents this season, with the exception of United where we stunk for the full 90 mins. Took the lead against Spurs, Liverpool, Everton and City only to choke with incredibly poor second half performances.

Against Spurs we scored first but only figured out their 532 system after 30 minutes.

But im talking about away from home against the 3 form sides who we are yet to play away from home (WHL, SB and Anfield).

[selassie]

I just don't see how Wenger will go unless we finish outside the top four, if the table looked in May like it looks today he will think in his own mind we were in contention all the way because 2nd and 3rd are only one point above us.

I don't think he'll go either, in fact I don't think he'll go even if we drop out of top 4 but that is more to do with Wenger not wanting to go and the board being happy with him meeting their requirements, a season out of CL won't be enough for them to drop him.

So far this season is not that dissimilar to last season in as much as we've never really truly challenged for the title...if it finishes as it did last season I have no idea how Wenger can justify that he is moving the team forward, his words were that he will only extend his contract if he believes he is moving the team forward.

[selassie]

Funnily enough, we've started well against all the tough opponents this season, with the exception of United where we stunk for the full 90 mins. Took the lead against Spurs, Liverpool, Everton and City only to choke with incredibly poor second half performances.

We've been found out tactically in pretty much all the big games this season, the only game we turned up in was Chelsea at home where we blitzed them, we very good against Chelsea, easily our best performance of the season.

In the other games we have been really poor and massively failed in game management, against City and Everton we were especially poor having gone ahead, it was like we gave up playing in both of them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think he'll go either, in fact I don't think he'll go even if we drop out of top 4 but that is more to do with Wenger not wanting to go and the board being happy with him meeting their requirements, a season out of CL won't be enough for them to drop him.

So far this season is not that dissimilar to last season in as much as we've never really truly challenged for the title...if it finishes as it did last season I have no idea how Wenger can justify that he is moving the team forward, his words were that he will only extend his contract if he believes he is moving the team forward.

If we drop out of the top four he walks without doubt, especially with the money he's spent.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've been found out tactically in pretty much all the big games this season, the only game we turned up in was Chelsea at home where we blitzed them, we very good against Chelsea, easily our best performance of the season.

In the other games we have been really poor and massively failed in game management, against City and Everton we were especially poor having gone ahead, it was like we gave up playing in both of them.

Against City our game plan was to try and plan on the counter attack, the problem was we were pressed off the ball and never had a situation to counter to relieve the pressure on ourselves. That's the big problem with Arsenal, i do think we need to train our players to have composure when we don't have time on the ball

[AFC Leveller]

We really have to step out game up this season if we want to finish top 2 or 3. Last season after 21 games we had 43 points yet we were top (8 points off 5th) but this time we have 44 and we sit 4th (with 5th and 6th not too far behind). I think Spuds, Liverpool and Chelsea will be top 3 and we will fight the Mancs for 4th.

[selassie]

If we drop out of the top four he walks without doubt, especially with the money he's spent.

It will be interesting to see what happens if we do. To be honest he's under immense pressure at the moment, it's gone beyond him securing a top 4 place too, a lot of fans want to see REAL progress, they want to see this team battling for the title NOW.

[Letters]

3 more points but we all know where those points lead.

Some moments from Alexis worth watching, otherwise the predictable huff and puff that came from having two off form midfielders in the centre and a lazy turd of a poser up top.

Otherwise another nothing match.

What do you follow Arsenal results for?

[selassie]

Against City our game plan was to try and plan on the counter attack, the problem was we were pressed off the ball and never had a situation to counter to relieve the pressure on ourselves. That's the big problem with Arsenal, i do think we need to train our players to have composure when we don't have time on the ball

Yeah I agree, we generally don't deal with teams that press us hard either...it's something Wenger hasn't figured out.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It will be interesting to see what happens if we do. To be honest he's under immense pressure at the moment, it's gone beyond him securing a top 4 place too, a lot of fans want to see REAL progress, they want to see this team battling for the title NOW.

He's had three seasons with Money to spend to come closer to winning the title, if we take away the nonsense of him finishing Third and second the last two seasons (we finished 12 and 10 points behind the winner) we haven't come close.

If we had been like Spurs (within 5 points with 4 games remaining) or Liverpool (leading in the title race going into the last three games) than even failing to win the title wouldn't be so bad as there would be signs of progress

[selassie]

We really have to step out game up this season if we want to finish top 2 or 3. Last season after 21 games we had 43 points yet we were top (8 points off 5th) but this time we have 44 and we sit 4th (with 5th and 6th not too far behind). I think Spuds, Liverpool and Chelsea will be top 3 and we will fight the Mancs for 4th.

Yeah that's how I see it too. I think 4th place is going to be a 3 way battle between us and the Manc clubs.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What do you follow Arsenal results for?

He's a fan, when you love the club you still follow the results even when you know the writing is on the wall.

[selassie]

He's had three seasons with Money to spend to come closer to winning the title, if we take away the nonsense of him finishing Third and second the last two seasons (we finished 12 and 10 points behind the winner) we haven't come close.

If we had been like Spurs (within 5 points with 4 games remaining) or Liverpool (leading in the title race going into the last three games) than even failing to win the title wouldn't be so bad as there would be signs of progress

Yep agreed again. We're not moving forward with him in charge, he'll never do enough irrespective of whether he has money to spend or not. Besides I don't even think he really spends the money that efficiently, there have been some good signings...Ozil, Sanchez and Cech which were no brainers...but amongst that, I question whether any of the other signings have really improved us, the team not the squad.

[Letters]

He's a fan, when you love the club you still follow the results even when you know the writing is on the wall.

It just seems weird to follow something which gives you zero pleasure - if anything it seems to annoy him whatever the results. So why bother?
He said before the game that if we didn't win easily then we might as well pack up and go home. We do and it's all meaningless anyway because the next failure is just around the corner. :shrug:
It probably is but why bother following it then?

[Power n Glory]

He's had three seasons with Money to spend to come closer to winning the title, if we take away the nonsense of him finishing Third and second the last two seasons (we finished 12 and 10 points behind the winner) we haven't come close.

If we had been like Spurs (within 5 points with 4 games remaining) or Liverpool (leading in the title race going into the last three games) than even failing to win the title wouldn't be so bad as there would be signs of progress

We came 2nd with 71 points! That's a lower tally than our two previous seasons. It says a lot.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It just seems weird to follow something which gives you zero pleasure - if anything it seems to annoy him whatever the results. So why bother?
He said before the game that if we didn't win easily then we might as well pack up and go home. We do and it's all meaningless anyway because the next failure is just around the corner. :shrug:
It probably is but why bother following it then?

Letters am I really having to explain this to you?

If you have an emotional connection to your club you don't just walk away from it, you can't. It's like if you have a Son who makes all the wrong life choices and it results in the same mistakes which he doesn't seem to learn from, and you want things to change for him.....you could just walk away but most people wouldn't be able to because it's their son and they love them no matter what.

So for NQ and definitely for me, Arsenal is like a child you are disappointed in....you want to be a part of their life, you want the best for them but you can't approve of the choices they make.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We came 2nd with 71 points! That's a lower tally than our two previous seasons. It says a lot.

We also won three away games from thirteen between november and may

Won 3 Draw 7 Lost 3

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yep agreed again. We're not moving forward with him in charge, he'll never do enough irrespective of whether he has money to spend or not. Besides I don't even think he really spends the money that efficiently, there have been some good signings...Ozil, Sanchez and Cech which were no brainers...but amongst that, I question whether any of the other signings have really improved us, the team not the squad.

No i can go with that, the only other player i'd mention is one that came through the youth team in Bellerin.

[Letters]

I've walked away from it :shrug:
Lots have on here actually. OK, I keep up with results here and there but not like I used to. I don't even know who we're playing next.
Used to go to every home game. It is partly the Groundhog Day, partly just moving on in life.
I don't think I'll ever be completely disconnected with it but if it gave me as much pain as it seems to give NQ I wouldn't watch it as closely as he seems to.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I've walked away from it :shrug:
Lots have on here actually. OK, I keep up with results here and there but not like I used to. I don't even know who we're playing next.
Used to go to every home game. It is partly the Groundhog Day, partly just moving on in life.
I don't think I'll ever be completely disconnected with it but if it gave me as much pain as it seems to give NQ I wouldn't watch it as closely as he seems to.

That's a choice you've made

[Letters]

I know. So the question remains, why hasn't NQ made the same choice given how he clearly doesn't enjoy watching Arsenal, doesn't enjoy results whatever they are. Why bother? :shrug:

[Power n Glory]

I've walked away from it :shrug:
Lots have on here actually. OK, I keep up with results here and there but not like I used to. I don't even know who we're playing next.
Used to go to every home game. It is partly the Groundhog Day, partly just moving on in life.
I don't think I'll ever be completely disconnected with it but if it gave me as much pain as it seems to give NQ I wouldn't watch it as closely as he seems to.

We actually need more people to take this stance. The only way Wenger walks is if the fans really turn on him and stop supporting the club. Empty seats along with banners and protests. That's the only thing that would ruffle his feathers enough to walk and recognise his time is up.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I know. So the question remains, why hasn't NQ made the same choice given how he clearly doesn't enjoy watching Arsenal, doesn't enjoy results whatever they are. Why bother? :shrug:

Why would you assume that because you've made a choice that other people would as well

Football is an addiction. I watch fewer and fewer games live, but I always need to know the score.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But that's up to him surely, an extreme analogy but a lot of addicts get no pleasure from the thing they are addicted to they just don't want to go through the withdrawl.

In NQ's case i think he enjoys the banter with people on here, and actually so do I. From football from any topic you like I do enjoy arguing/debating with people on here because i'll give people here credit they don't sulk or go off in a huff if you dare to disagree with them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We actually need more people to take this stance. The only way Wenger walks is if the fans really turn on him and stop supporting the club. Empty seats along with banners and protests. That's the only thing that would ruffle his feathers enough to walk and recognise his time is up.

Whilst i agree and i wish less people would turn up, i don't think anyone should be compelled to do so.

I know you like Tim Stillman and i sometimes read his column, he is of the opinion that the majority of fans that go to the Emirates week in week out aren't the same voices on the fan forums, on twitter etc during the week (and i tend to think he's got a point, i don't think many of us on here are season ticket holders).

Now this is not him or me saying the complaints are coming from people who aren't proper fans, it's just most of the Emirates crowd (and i say specifically the Emirates crowd) tend to be people who go to the Arsenal as a weekend routine, have their pie, buy their match day program and win, lose or draw go back and meet their mates or take the missus out for a meal without any further thought on the match.

It's always going to be the away crowd that is the most boisterous and vocally disapproving (especially if they travel half way across the country to watch a load of dross)

[Niall_Quinn]

What do you follow Arsenal results for?

Saves me from guessing. Sometimes guessing isn't 100% accurate.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's a fan, when you love the club you still follow the results even when you know the writing is on the wall.

Not a real fan though, like Ty or Chris Wenger. Real fans don't complain when their manager and the team is taking the piss.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Saves me from guessing. Sometimes guessing isn't 100% accurate.

I'm in a competition with my brother for picking Arsenal league results, 1 point for correct result, 2 for correct scoreline, this started with Palace game and so far i am ahead 3-2 (i predicted the draw with Bournemouth).

[Power n Glory]

Whilst i agree and i wish less people would turn up, i don't think anyone should be compelled to do so.

I know you like Tim Stillman and i sometimes read his column, he is of the opinion that the majority of fans that go to the Emirates week in week out aren't the same voices on the fan forums, on twitter etc during the week (and i tend to think he's got a point, i don't think many of us on here are season ticket holders).

Now this is not him or me saying the complaints are coming from people who aren't proper fans, it's just most of the Emirates crowd (and i say specifically the Emirates crowd) tend to be people who go to the Arsenal as a weekend routine, have their pie, buy their match day program and win, lose or draw go back and meet their mates or take the missus out for a meal without any further thought on the match.

It's always going to be the away crowd that is the most boisterous and vocally disapproving (especially if they travel half way across the country to watch a load of dross)

Everyone has the freedom to do as they please. That's not an attempt from me to sway anyone, just stating what I believe would rattle Wenger enough to walk.

As for Tim Stillman, I respect his opinion on football and tactics but haven’t seen his views on the Emirates and fans. But even if that’s his view, I can’t really pay it too much attention because that discounts the guys on Arsenal fan TV like DT who are also on Twitter.

But either way, I think it usually takes a brave few to get things rolling.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Everyone has the freedom to do as they please. That's not an attempt from me to sway anyone, just stating what I believe would rattle Wenger enough to walk.

As for Tim Stillman, I respect his opinion on football and tactics but haven’t seen his views on the Emirates and fans. But even if that’s his view, I can’t really pay it too much attention because that discounts the guys on Arsenal fan TV like DT who are also on Twitter.

But either way, I think it usually takes a brave few to get things rolling.

I don't think it does discount DT or the rest of the ArsenalFanTV crowd, but there are 60,000 give or take who turn up to the Emirates each week......how many of them are part of the hardcore fans group who go to all the away games as much as the home ones?.....2-3 thousand?.

If you remove the amount of Tourist fans from the equation (token amount) and that leaves a lot of fans, now doubtless Stillman is basing his opinion on anecdotal evidence of the type of fans he sits around when he goes to the Emirates himself but i wouldn't be surprised if what he says does have a ring of truth to it.

And i do think this sums up this reticence to protest at the ground, oh and just so there is no confusion i wasn't in anyway stating you did think people should be compelled to kick up a fuss.....i just think short of putting a rod up people's backsides (which is i think counter productive) I'm just not sure how you can create the atmosphere you (and to be fair I as well) am looking for at the Emirates.

But hopefully i'm wrong.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think it does discount DT or the rest of the ArsenalFanTV crowd, but there are 60,000 give or take who turn up to the Emirates each week......how many of them are part of the hardcore fans group who go to all the away games as much as the home ones?.....2-3 thousand?.

If you remove the amount of Tourist fans from the equation (token amount) and that leaves a lot of fans, now doubtless Stillman is basing his opinion on anecdotal evidence of the type of fans he sits around when he goes to the Emirates himself but i wouldn't be surprised if what he says does have a ring of truth to it.

And i do think this sums up this reticence to protest at the ground, oh and just so there is no confusion i wasn't in anyway stating you did think people should be compelled to kick up a fuss.....i just think short of putting a rod up people's backsides (which is i think counter productive) I'm just not sure how you can create the atmosphere you (and to be fair I as well) am looking for at the Emirates.

But hopefully i'm wrong.

One man can't assess the views of 60,000 people in the stadium. What’s not expressed in public can often been expressed in private...or social media.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

One man can't assess the views of 60,000 people in the stadium. What’s not expressed in public can often been expressed in private...or social media.

No but he can venture an opinion, albeit one that might be more supposition than anything.

What i personally think is

If you took a poll of everyone who considers themselves an Arsenal fan and asked them if Wenger should go at the end of the season if we don't win the title I think you would have a majority in favour of saying Yes but maybe only just (i'd be the majority)

If you took a poll of the same people and said should Wenger go at the end of the season if we fail to finish in the top four, than i think the majority would be much higher, it's hard for fans to shake off the mentality that top 4 is an achievement.

But i think a lot of fans also believe protesting equates to being disrespectful of Wenger and whilst they don't think he's the man to take us forward that he deserves some reverence, which i would agree is a self-defeating belief because only protests are going to get him to go.

But equally you could be right, it could be just fans not wanting to be the ones to start the protest, but i remember the protest against Norwich and the lukewarm way it was received by people in the ground and the condescension it received from football pundits who think any criticism of Wenger is tantamount to ingratitude but in the same breath talk about how constantly this Arsenal side has a weak mentality.

I think people don't feel strongly enough to not be easily discouraged from breaking into full protest.

[Power n Glory]

You really enjoy debating a bit too much. There isn't much point in getting into this sort of debate. An opinion about other fans supposed opinions...come on.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You really enjoy debating a bit too much. There isn't much point in getting into this sort of debate. An opinion about other fans supposed opinions...come on.

I thought this was a discussion not a debate

I didn't turn it into a debate, i just said this is what Tim Stillman said and whilst as you said he can't speak for everyone who goes to the Emirates on each home game, i wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some truth in what he said.

I wasn't even going as far as to say i think i'm right and you are wrong, you could be right....and i hope you are. I'm just generally not encouraged to think there will be the kind of walk out or match day protest that we need to see.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I've walked away from it :shrug:
Lots have on here actually. OK, I keep up with results here and there but not like I used to. I don't even know who we're playing next.
Used to go to every home game. It is partly the Groundhog Day, partly just moving on in life.
I don't think I'll ever be completely disconnected with it but if it gave me as much pain as it seems to give NQ I wouldn't watch it as closely as he seems to.

That.

And also that your wife doesn't want you to go.

[GP]

That.

And also that your wife doesn't want you to go.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYYTLJ8YHi4

[Chippy]

Not interested at all in the top four race, it's the title or don't care. The title is Chelseas' so don't care

The title is between Chelsea and the Scum. End of. :(

[Letters]

And also that your wife doesn't want you to go.

:lol:


Pretty much :(

:getcoat:

[Letters]

Why would you assume that because you've made a choice that other people would as well

Football is an addiction. I watch fewer and fewer games live, but I always need to know the score.

I didn't assume anything, I was just asking the question. Previously you said it wasn't an option for a fan. It is.
And I don't agree that with other addictions people get no pleasure from them. They obviously do at the time even if there are bad consequences later.
With NQ he doesn't seem to derive any pleasure from it at all no matter the result.

The point PnG making about Wenger leaving if people stop going en masse. I agree that is the only way to affect change but I see the reason slightly differently. Wenger cares about success. I can't be bothered debating that, he may take a little too much pride in top 4 but of course he wants to do better, why would any manager at that level not want to be winning trophies? The board though...so long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a monkeys so IMO the only way to get them to change anything is to cut off the source of the money which is us, ultimately. The problem is a lot of the real fans have already walked away or been priced out but there's a very long queue of tourists ready and willing to take their place.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I didn't assume anything, I was just asking the question. Previously you said it wasn't an option for a fan. It is.
And I don't agree that with other addictions people get no pleasure from them. They obviously do at the time even if there are bad consequences later.
With NQ he doesn't seem to derive any pleasure from it at all no matter the result.

The point PnG making about Wenger leaving if people stop going en masse. I agree that is the only way to affect change but I see the reason slightly differently. Wenger cares about success. I can't be bothered debating that, he may take a little too much pride in top 4 but of course he wants to do better, why would any manager at that level not want to be winning trophies? The board though...so long as the money keeps rolling in they couldn't give a monkeys so IMO the only way to get them to change anything is to cut off the source of the money which is us, ultimately. The problem is a lot of the real fans have already walked away or been priced out but there's a very long queue of tourists ready and willing to take their place.

Are you honestly arguing that we are the main source of the money?

Corporate sponsorship and TV deals are the main part of the money, so in that sense the only fans that can affect the outcome are those fans who watch from home and don't buy the subscription packages.....whilst i agree it wouldn't look good for a half empty stadium week in, week out it won't affect the club financially whatsoever.

An addiction is a compulsion, and sometimes as often as not you don't get pleasure out of the thing you have a compulsion to do.....you might need to understand a bit more about psychological addiction before making such a statement.

As for Wenger it's less about lack of ambition, it's more that he is convinced he doesn't have to change a thing and can still bring success.....according to himself he is his harshest critic but with the best will in the world i can be self-critical and see where i am going wrong with any given task but it often needs outside input to give me a fresh look on how to do things, he i don't think will listen to any voice that isn't his own, plus we mention addiction managing this club is a compulsion for him he spends more time here than any other of the playing or coaching staff and has very little going on apart from punditry work in France and i think he would be able to change his parameters of how he defined success simply because he is afraid of retiring.

So if we finish 4th way off the pace, he will say to himself...we were unlucky (as per usual) we just need to keep doing what we are doing and it will come, and this same mentality with him permeates season after season.

[Letters]

Are you honestly arguing that we are the main source of the money?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/25/premier-league-finances-club-by-club-breakdown-david-conn

Income Gate and match-day income £100m (us - well, not me now)
TV and broadcasting £125m (us - we're the ones subscribing to the sports channels. Well, I'm not any more...)
Retail £25m;
Commercial £79m;
Property development £15m;
Player trading £0.8m

So yes, I am arguing that. If people stopped going to the grounds and stopped subscribing to the TV channels then the whole thing comes tumbling down. You're not going to get big sponsorship deals when no-one is watching.

And in any case I was asking NQ what he personally gets out of it. I've not had a reply. It is up to him but I'm just curious as he doesn't seem to derive any pleasure even from good results.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/may/25/premier-league-finances-club-by-club-breakdown-david-conn

Income Gate and match-day income £100m (us - well, not me now)
TV and broadcasting £125m (us - we're the ones subscribing to the sports channels. Well, I'm not any more...)
Retail £25m;
Commercial £79m;
Property development £15m;
Player trading £0.8m

So yes, I am arguing that. If people stopped going to the grounds and stopped subscribing to the TV channels then the whole thing comes tumbling down. You're not going to get big sponsorship deals when no-one is watching.

And in any case I was asking NQ what he personally gets out of it. I've not had a reply. It is up to him but I'm just curious as he doesn't seem to derive any pleasure even from good results.

Right so if every Arsenal fan stopped subscribing to the tv channels the revenue would simply disappear? :lol:

Should we petition every other fan of any other club whose subscription heavily contributes to the TV money we receive?

Don't get me wrong I think fan boycotts would make a difference as it would make sponsors get itchy feet to see that the stadium is half empty and full of placards, but directly the financial loss to the club would not be anywhere near as big as it was.

Why should he have to answer you?......what he comes here for is his own business. The fact is you don't like it because you think he is being relentlessly negative, so the problem you refer to seems to be much more yours than his.

[Power n Glory]

The fans are still the main source of income. It's not the largest source but if the fanbase starts to shrink, so does that corporate sponsorship pocket money. We’re able to squeeze more money out of these sponsors because we have the figures to back up a loyal fanbase that attend games week in week out and buy the merchandise. It’s why we’re trying to expand that following over in Asia and America. If the fans start to fall away, sponsors won’t be so eager to renew a deal under the same terms and may even decrease what they spend on us or walk away.

As for the TV money, clubs can’t be foolish and bet the house on that money being sustainable. Neglect your core fans, along with the stadium and we could end up like Serie A. Viewing figures have been down here in the UK and overseas. UEFA have also admitted that selling all the rights to BT Sports for the CL was a mistake. When those deals are up for a renewal, what’s on offer might not be so lucrative. The Board are smart enough to know that can't build a house on sand and expect it to stand the test of time.

[Power n Glory]

Also, let NQ answer for himself. This 'addict' narrative is too presumptuous.

[Letters]

Right so if every Arsenal fan stopped subscribing to the tv channels the revenue would simply disappear? :lol:.
And stopped buying tickets and all the merchandise. Yes, of course it would, or would make a massive dent. Enough to make the board whose only concern is revenue, sit up and take notice. It won't happen, obviously, but ultimately it's the only power we collectively have.

He doesn't HAVE to answer to me, I was just asking as I'm puzzled why someone would spend so much time on something he seems to get so little from. With other addictions I get the attraction, with this...if you can't even enjoy good results any more then what are you getting from it? It's his business of course, I was just asking. I thought we were allowed to do that on a message board. :blink:

[Niall_Quinn]

What's this? What are you on about now Letters?

Why do I post here? I could give you an extremely in-depth response to that, but I already have in the body of all the posts I have made here. In short though, because it's better than doing shitty, species sapping work for money. Banter, a laugh, to get information that isn't pre-packaged by money whores in the sports media, to get other opinions, etc, etc, and so on. Loads of reasons, but mainly to avoid shitty, progressively pointless, species sapping work.

Or are you asking why I support Arsenal? Because I have done, do now and will do in the future. I think you are suggesting that if I don't derive pleasure from a bunch of scummy profiteers hijacking the club, and a loser of a bloke managing the team then I ought to give the game up? What's the logic behind that idea? What would happen to the club if we all pissed off the minute it went into a slump? This is what through thick and thin means. I doesn't mean you have to like the thin bits or approve of them or put a smile on your face and feign love for them. Plenty of fans have decided that nothing changes and everything to do with the club is fairly pointless until Wenger leaves. They are right, of course, because the evidence bears that out. That's Wenger leaving, right? Not the fans. I have an interest in seeing this club do well again and start winning again. Playing decent football again. I haven't lowered my standards just because Wenger has lowered his.

You want to see me leaping around celebrating a crappy performance against a woeful Swansea, a game in which the one player I actually enjoy watching was hauled off because the prehistoric manager wants to average him out over the season to secure that coveted top 4 spot? Not a chance. I was 3 points and another shit performance and, as I have said before, a string of flat track bully outings doesn't make any difference to the final outcome. On the other hand, I enjoyed the first half against the chavs - just the first half mind. Probably (no definitely) because the performance was decent, I'd have enjoyed that even if we hadn't got the goals and even if we'd have lost the match. When there's something worth praising I praise it, when there's something worth pissing on I piss on it. Unfortunately we have Wenger here so just about everything is pissworthy, his fault, not mine. That's for sure.

I think the thing you don't get is that we've been doing this over and over again for at least 10 years now. So do I enjoy seeing us do the exact same thing again? Nope. And does that mean I have to stop supporting the club? I don't think so. Show me that rule in the book. Things will turn again, they always do. That's when the enjoyment will come again and I don't mean winning titles, I mean playing the type of football we all grew up on. That has to come back sooner or later, not just at Arsenal but all across the game. Otherwise the game will die. It can't survive for much longer pretending the frauds in the game today (both on and off the pitch) are fit to lace the boots of those who went before them. I include Wenger in that, although he places himself in the strange position of not being fit to lace his own boots. I don't know what's happened to the bloke, some sort of mental condition, but he's not driving me away from the club. Why should I allow him to do that?

As for yourself, if you have withdrawn so much from the club as you seem to be claiming, why do you run a fan forum on the Internet?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Also, let NQ answer for himself. This 'addict' narrative is too presumptuous.

It's also purely specculative and not in anyway personally directed at NQ, i'm giving one possible obvious reason why someone would continue to do something they don't enjoy.

I think he comes here because he enjoys engaging with other people on here, the same reason we all do whether we admit it or not.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's also purely specculative and not in anyway personally directed at NQ, i'm giving one possible obvious reason why someone would continue to do something they don't enjoy.

I think he comes here because he enjoys engaging with other people on here, the same reason we all do whether we admit it or not.

But I do enjoy laying into Wenger. Because he absolutely deserves it. And mine is one voice, on its own insignificant to the corporateers. But many of those single voices, that's what prevents these scumbags running the whole table. They have to at least pretend to be in it for the football if at least a significant body of the fanbase is calling them out for their bullshit behaviour. It's the same with any corporation. They want money, that's ALL they want. Give them your fucking money, ALL of it, for ever. That's their model and their proposition. So they'll play along to a degree if they are forced to stay just a little bit honest. But drop the protest for one minute and they'll start pushing the other way. Give them an inch and they'll take your pension.

Fans SHOULD be on here and on Twatter and at the ground and everywhere shouting at the tops of their voices - NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Fucking do better! It's a major problem at Arsenal. The Library. Too many day-trippers and posh frocks who can afford on a whim the outrageous sums demanded. And the more of these we end up with the more polite they'll be and the more the corporateers will be able to push, push, push. Until, like the biblical swarm of devouring pests they are, everything is stripped bare and left desolate as they swarm to their next target. Yes, I'm sticking around to call these cunts out for what they are.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well there we go then, perversely i must admit even though i hate us losing in some respects there is a positive to it as it gives us more to discuss on these type of forums and there is the plus side of feeling like it's moving Wenger nearer to the exit door.

Don't get me wrong given the choice i'd much rather take a win especially against the top sides, when we beat Chelsea in September I had the buzz from that all weekend, ditto with beating United the previous autumn and City two years ago and before xmas last year.

These type of results seem so infrequent though, I don't expect us to beat these sides all the time and never lose to them...it's neither realistic or possible unless you're cheating on football manager.

But haven't beaten Spurs in the league in almost three years, Haven't won at Anfield in four years, stamford bridge in five years, Old Trafford in over ten years.

If we were a mid table side i'd say we were spoilt but we are not.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well there we go then, perversely i must admit even though i hate us losing in some respects there is a positive to it as it gives us more to discuss on these type of forums and there is the plus side of feeling like it's moving Wenger nearer to the exit door.

Don't get me wrong given the choice i'd much rather take a win especially against the top sides, when we beat Chelsea in September I had the buzz from that all weekend, ditto with beating United the previous autumn and City two years ago and before xmas last year.

These type of results seem so infrequent though, I don't expect us to beat these sides all the time and never lose to them...it's neither realistic or possible unless you're cheating on football manager.

But haven't beaten Spurs in the league in almost three years, Haven't won at Anfield in four years, stamford bridge in five years, Old Trafford in over ten years.

If we were a mid table side i'd say we were spoilt but we are not.

Which demonstrates clearly that Wenger is not pursuing excellence, he's pursuing averageness. Even though we rarely beat our closest rivals we still end up in the top 4. To do this we go out and get enough points against the smaller clubs. To win a title we not only have to beat those smaller clubs, but we have to step up and take points from our rivals on a much more regular basis. But we don't make that step up, the club is more than satisfied with trailing in behind the champions every season. Of course they are or else the manager would have been sacked like at any club with serious title ambitions. Liverpool don't put up with stagnation or failure, the spuds don't put up with it, the mancs, the chavs, the gypos. We laugh at their high managerial turnover but that's the result of those clubs seeking to improve. We, on the other hand, sit here and accept what is for us, given our extensive resources, an average, moderate, par, unremarkable outcome each year. The money rolls in, some of the more idiotic fans sing Wenger's name in the stadium. Pathetic really.

Wasn't it Letters who said earlier that Wenger clearly wants to win and that's not up for debate? It certainly is up for debate. Where's the proof he wants to win? Nowhere. Does doing a little dance and kicking water bottles prove he wants to win? No, it proves he's a sore loser. The word being LOSER. If he wanted to win then he'd play more expansive football, take more risks, buy better players, spend money with ambition. But he doesn't do those things. Instead he cements the averageness of the club. He bakes in that 4th place finish. That's his job and that's the extent of his ambitions because his actions speak far more loudly than any of his repetitive excuses.

And that's what I saw against Swansea, the same thing I have seen over and over again. The same old crappy performance, 3 more points towards that inevitably average total, the top 4 finish back on track, a manager that accepts less, a team that accepts less (and both are inexplicably arrogant with it). Strikers that celebrate last gasp equalisers against teams we have twice the resources of and the bench and criticism for the one player who really seems to give a fuck.

It's a very broken club. Honest fans will look at it and speak honestly. The rest, your Ty and Chris Wenger brigade, will continue deluding themselves and in the bargain give Wenger the support by which he carries on this soul destroying trudge into grey, season after season. For the sake of the club it's a bloody good job they aren't the only sort of fans left because then there would be no hope at all.

There's a video up on AFTV (I think), shows Ty getting an autograph through Wenger's car window. You should see the guy's face as he walks away, it's as if he's just received communion. The guy's mentally ill and so are all his mates that can't see what's under their noses or, worse, don't care provided they have their seat and their authentic merchandise. You really have to wonder, if those guys enjoy it so much why do they continue to turn up? All they are doing is hurting the club they claim to love, hurting it badly.

[selassie]

Which demonstrates clearly that Wenger is not pursuing excellence, he's pursuing averageness. Even though we rarely beat our closest rivals we still end up in the top 4. To do this we go out and get enough points against the smaller clubs. To win a title we not only have to beat those smaller clubs, but we have to step up and take points from our rivals on a much more regular basis. But we don't make that step up, the club is more than satisfied with trailing in behind the champions every season. Of course they are or else the manager would have been sacked like at any club with serious title ambitions. Liverpool don't put up with stagnation or failure, the spuds don't put up with it, the mancs, the chavs, the gypos. We laugh at their high managerial turnover but that's the result of those clubs seeking to improve. We, on the other hand, sit here and accept what is for us, given our extensive resources, an average, moderate, par, unremarkable outcome each year. The money rolls in, some of the more idiotic fans sing Wenger's name in the stadium. Pathetic really.

Wasn't it Letters who said earlier that Wenger clearly wants to win and that's not up for debate? It certainly is up for debate. Where's the proof he wants to win? Nowhere. Does doing a little dance and kicking water bottles prove he wants to win? No, it proves he's a sore loser. The word being LOSER. If he wanted to win then he'd play more expansive football, take more risks, buy better players, spend money with ambition. But he doesn't do those things. Instead he cements the averageness of the club. He bakes in that 4th place finish. That's his job and that's the extent of his ambitions because his actions speak far more loudly than any of his repetitive excuses.

And that's what I saw against Swansea, the same thing I have seen over and over again. The same old crappy performance, 3 more points towards that inevitably average total, the top 4 finish back on track, a manager that accepts less, a team that accepts less (and both are inexplicably arrogant with it). Strikers that celebrate last gasp equalisers against teams we have twice the resources of and the bench and criticism for the one player who really seems to give a fuck.

It's a very broken club. Honest fans will look at it and speak honestly. The rest, your Ty and Chris Wenger brigade, will continue deluding themselves and in the bargain give Wenger the support by which he carries on this soul destroying trudge into grey, season after season. For the sake of the club it's a bloody good job they aren't the only sort of fans left because then there would be no hope at all.

There's a video up on AFTV (I think), shows Ty getting an autograph through Wenger's car window. You should see the guy's face as he walks away, it's as if he's just received communion. The guy's mentally ill and so are all his mates that can't see what's under their noses or, worse, don't care provided they have their seat and their authentic merchandise. You really have to wonder, if those guys enjoy it so much why do they continue to turn up? All they are doing is hurting the club they claim to love, hurting it badly.

This!

Honestly...Wenger should have resigned out of principle after last season which even by his standards was an absolute disaster, how we managed to finish 2nd in a one horse race for the title will forever tarnish Wenger's reputation.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm not sure I agree, if you asked a chain smoker did they want to avoid lung cancer they are going to say yes of course but if you ask them what they will do to avoid that they are a bit more circumspect.

Wenger wants to win but he is so stubborn and entrenched that he can't or won't accept that his methods aren't working it's easier to believe bad luck, things conspiring against him and his team etc are responsible than their desire and application and his tactical paucity.

Is he doing enough to win in terms of innovation, match preparation, the right squad balance etc ? No but I'm not sure that's necessarily indicative of not wanting to win.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not sure I agree, if you asked a chain smoker did they want to avoid lung cancer they are going to say yes of course but if you ask them what they will do to avoid that they are a bit more circumspect.

Wenger wants to win but he is so stubborn and entrenched that he can't or won't accept that his methods aren't working it's easier to believe bad luck, things conspiring against him and his team etc are responsible than their desire and application and his tactical paucity.

Is he doing enough to win in terms of innovation, match preparation, the right squad balance etc ? No but I'm not sure that's necessarily indicative of not wanting to win.

Wanting to win? Yeah sure, he'll want to win every game. I want us to win every game. Doing what it takes to win? Different matter. Anyone can say they want to win but to really want it, like Alexis for example, then it's more than just words. You need to act, to do what it takes to win. If we are saying Wenger is a bloke who mouths platitudes, yep I agree with that. If you ask me if he really wants to win, just like the smoker who wants to quit after this one last fag, nope, no realistic signs at all that he wants to win. He doesn't do any of the things required to win so he can't really want it. Or else his definition of winning is fucked up in some terrible way.

[AFC Leveller]

Wanting to win? Yeah sure, he'll want to win every game. I want us to win every game. Doing what it takes to win? Different matter. Anyone can say they want to win but to really want it, like Alexis for example, then it's more than just words. You need to act, to do what it takes to win. If we are saying Wenger is a bloke who mouths platitudes, yep I agree with that. If you ask me if he really wants to win, just like the smoker who wants to quit after this one last fag, nope, no realistic signs at all that he wants to win. He doesn't do any of the things required to win so he can't really want it. Or else his definition of winning is fucked up in some terrible way.

Thats exactly whats wrong. Wenger is better of moving on and letting someone else take over.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wanting to win? Yeah sure, he'll want to win every game. I want us to win every game. Doing what it takes to win? Different matter. Anyone can say they want to win but to really want it, like Alexis for example, then it's more than just words. You need to act, to do what it takes to win. If we are saying Wenger is a bloke who mouths platitudes, yep I agree with that. If you ask me if he really wants to win, just like the smoker who wants to quit after this one last fag, nope, no realistic signs at all that he wants to win. He doesn't do any of the things required to win so he can't really want it. Or else his definition of winning is fucked up in some terrible way.

I wouldn't disagree, there is a definite desire to win but no he's never been prepared to do whatever it takes to win because that would be a form of cheating in his mind, like I say again the guy is so stubborn, so entrenched that he probably genuinely believes he's doing all he can do within the narrow parameters he's set himself. The effort is there from him he's the first one at London Colney and the last one to leave he lives, eats and breathes this job but his energy is employed in all the wrong directions.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Thats exactly whats wrong. Wenger is better of moving on and letting someone else take over.

But we are stuck in a logical impasse between a manager who cannot accept he is either incapable or unwilling of taking us any further and a board who don't want to rock the boat by being pro-active.

[Letters]

This!

Honestly...Wenger should have resigned out of principle after last season which even by his standards was an absolute disaster, how we managed to finish 2nd in a one horse race for the title will forever tarnish Wenger's reputation.

How was it a one horse race? :blink:

[selassie]

How was it a one horse race? :blink:

We were challenging the Spuds and Leicester for the title, none of our traditional rivals were ever in contention.

We well and truly screwed up last season...do I even need to go into the details?

[selassie]

I'm not sure I agree, if you asked a chain smoker did they want to avoid lung cancer they are going to say yes of course but if you ask them what they will do to avoid that they are a bit more circumspect.

Wenger wants to win but he is so stubborn and entrenched that he can't or won't accept that his methods aren't working it's easier to believe bad luck, things conspiring against him and his team etc are responsible than their desire and application and his tactical paucity.

Is he doing enough to win in terms of innovation, match preparation, the right squad balance etc ? No but I'm not sure that's necessarily indicative of not wanting to win.

The fact that he is stubborn and entrenched in his own methods is the precise reason to why he needs to go immediately, and why he will never win the major trophies again at Arsenal.

I accept that wanting to win isn't a black and white question and there are grey areas of which many you have touched upon...but the facts are that he is not doing enough to setup his squad to win regardless of whether these reasons are principle led or not.

[selassie]

But we are stuck in a logical impasse between a manager who cannot accept he is either incapable or unwilling of taking us any further and a board who don't want to rock the boat by being pro-active.

It's not even just that, given his response to the fans at the end of last season I suspect he thinks he's doing a good enough job. In fact I think the board feel he is doing a good enough job even after last season's debacle.

This is the problem...Wenger seems to set his own standards of what constitutes a successful season and they are not always consistent and certainly don't match up with a sizeable percentage of the fans ambitions/standards.

[Letters]

Why do I post here?
Or are you asking why I support Arsenal?

I'm not asking either of those things really.
I post on here because it breaks up the working day and although it's not as good as it used to be there are still occasions where people post things which amuse me. Often you, actually.
And I'm an Arsenal fan because my dad is, simple as that.

You don't have to give the game up, I haven't entirely. But I follow it from a distance these days for a number of reasons. You don't have to leap around in celebration about a good win against a poor side either, but neither should it be an opportunity to have another moan.
Having finished 4th then 3rd then 2nd in the last 3 years and won two FA Cups it's a bit of a stretch to say that "just about everything is pissworthy". And nothing has happened to Wenger, if anything it's what hasn't happened to him. Football has moved on and he hasn't, or not enough. But I don't need to provide proof that he wants to win, everyone at that level wants to win. I don't think he has the ability to compete at the very top any more but it's not because he doesn't want to. You don't sign players like Ozil, Cech and Sanchez if you want to be average. The fact we failed to win the title with them, especially last season, is a failing but it's a lack of ability, not desire.

And as for the football we grew up with. How old are you? I grew up with George Graham's boring boring Arsenal. In 92/93 my dad very nearly gave up our season tickets it was so poor (it was my first year at Uni so I was spared most of it mercifully). We did win both domestic cups that year so there was a cherry on top of the turd of a season but 90% of it was horrible.

Who said you have to stop supporting the club? I support the club, that doesn't mean I have to go to games or even watch games really. I used to, now I don't. Partly ennui about Groundhog Day and the way football has gone generally but there are other factors. That doesn't strip me of the title of Arsenal supporter. At some point I may get more interested again. It's as simple as if I'm not enjoying something I stop doing it.

If you want to "stick around to call these cunts out for what they are." then I guess that makes sense and that does answer my original question

I'm not sure if I do run a fan forum, this place doesn't take much running these days. If I do run it then it's purely for historic reasons, I was on 606 then GW. In time the kid who started GW invited me to be a mod and then when he drifted away from it I ended being the owner by default. And this all happened when I was still a season ticket holder. I'm not sure going to games is a prerequisite for running the place anyway.

[Letters]

We were challenging the Spuds and Leicester for the title, none of our traditional rivals were ever in contention.

We well and truly screwed up last season...do I even need to go into the details?

No, you don't need to go into details. But that's not really what one horse race means. Just because we finished above everyone who we traditionally struggle to finish above, that doesn't mean the other horses aren't allowed to run at all.
But yes, Wenger should have been sacked for last season. He wasn't and while we keep finishing top 4 and people keep filling the stadium the board aren't going to change things.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's not even just that, given his response to the fans at the end of last season I suspect he thinks he's doing a good enough job. In fact I think the board feel he is doing a good enough job even after last season's debacle.

This is the problem...Wenger seems to set his own standards of what constitutes a successful season and they are not always consistent and certainly don't match up with a sizeable percentage of the fans ambitions/standards.

His response at the end of last season was typical of someone who is not used to criticism, blaming the fan atmosphere for the performances was an incredibly petulant response and an exercise in excuse making

[Power n Glory]

No, you don't need to go into details. But that's not really what one horse race means. Just because we finished above everyone who we traditionally struggle to finish above, that doesn't mean the other horses aren't allowed to run at all.
But yes, Wenger should have been sacked for last season. He wasn't and while we keep finishing top 4 and people keep filling the stadium the board aren't going to change things.

I actually think Wenger has bought himself enough credit with the Board to finish outside of the Top 4 for one season at least. It just depends on whether he feels he's capable of getting us back into the Top 4 spot after we drop out.

It has to be the fans losing total confidence in him to make him really consider his position and whether his time is up.

[Niall_Quinn]

I actually think Wenger has bought himself enough credit with the Board to finish outside of the Top 4 for one season at least. It just depends on whether he feels he's capable of getting us back into the Top 4 spot after we drop out.

It has to be the fans losing total confidence in him to make him really consider his position and whether his time is up.

I can think of 2 fans who have confidence him. One's a lunatic called Ty and the other a bookie who bets against him, because you have to be a lunatic or have an agenda to claim confidence in a guy who fails to maximise his resources so consistently and predictably. However, most fans still have respect for him and what he did in the past and that's what keeps his arse in that chair. If that respect was lost then he'd be out in a flash but I doubt that will happen at Arsenal and I'm not sure it should either. I like a moan about Wenger but if I'd have been up at that game where the arseholes waited and shouted into his face I'd have stabbed them. This gives the fans who want him out a difficult task. Even raising a very respectful and moderate banner gets you roundly condemned - not the Arsenal Way, etc, etc. Seems to me the Arsenal way is to spread 'em and try not to squeal.

Another problem - as football sinks ever deeper into the deepest of sewers with criminals owning clubs and human rights abusers and child abusers and fraudsters at FIFA and pampered prick players who can't play for toffee or refuse to play at all, and the shitty pundits who make fake news on CNN look trustworthy and informative, and the grubby agents and the doping and the cheating refs and the whole damn English con game called the PL - in the face of all that, Wenger's a bloody saint. He's respected right across the game because he behaves in a manner the rest can't afford to behave in, and he's done it since day one. Can an owner turn around and say, you know that guy who makes us all the money and never brings a moment of trouble to this club? We need to sack him and bring Harry Redknapp in, you know the crooked little wheeler, dealer who will do what it takes to win and damn the consequences? They will never, ever do it.

So all that's left is terrible frustration. If Wenger could just take a few risks, not the grubby types of risk that characterise the modern "greats", like teaching your players how to dive and call it professionalism (yes Pep), but risks well within the remit of what we have seen from him before like the purposeful counterattacking football that made us the second favourite team for every non-Utd fan out there, if he could just bend a little. But he won't.

It's like being managed by Jesus. God sent him to save football from its sins but we're getting crucified in the process.

[Letters]

I actually think Wenger has bought himself enough credit with the Board to finish outside of the Top 4 for one season at least. It just depends on whether he feels he's capable of getting us back into the Top 4 spot after we drop out.

It has to be the fans losing total confidence in him to make him really consider his position and whether his time is up.

For a season, maybe. If we'd really slumped in to mid-table (as many on here endlessly predicted we would) then I think he'd have been long gone.
I'm not even sure he cares what the fans thing and, to an extent, I'm not sure he should. Fans are reactionary - look at the over-reactions you get on here after certain results.
IMO he'll only leave when either he thinks it's time to move on or if pushed by the board.

[LDG]

I can think of 2 fans who have confidence him. One's a lunatic called Ty and the other a bookie who bets against him, because you have to be a lunatic or have an agenda to claim confidence in a guy who fails to maximise his resources so consistently and predictably. However, most fans still have respect for him and what he did in the past and that's what keeps his arse in that chair. If that respect was lost then he'd be out in a flash but I doubt that will happen at Arsenal and I'm not sure it should either. I like a moan about Wenger but if I'd have been up at that game where the arseholes waited and shouted into his face I'd have stabbed them. This gives the fans who want him out a difficult task. Even raising a very respectful and moderate banner gets you roundly condemned - not the Arsenal Way, etc, etc. Seems to me the Arsenal way is to spread 'em and try not to squeal.

Another problem - as football sinks ever deeper into the deepest of sewers with criminals owning clubs and human rights abusers and child abusers and fraudsters at FIFA and pampered prick players who can't play for toffee or refuse to play at all, and the shitty pundits who make fake news on CNN look trustworthy and informative, and the grubby agents and the doping and the cheating refs and the whole damn English con game called the PL - in the face of all that, Wenger's a bloody saint. He's respected right across the game because he behaves in a manner the rest can't afford to behave in, and he's done it since day one. Can an owner turn around and say, you know that guy who makes us all the money and never brings a moment of trouble to this club? We need to sack him and bring Harry Redknapp in, you know the crooked little wheeler, dealer who will do what it takes to win and damn the consequences? They will never, ever do it.

So all that's left is terrible frustration. If Wenger could just take a few risks, not the grubby types of risk that characterise the modern "greats", like teaching your players how to dive and call it professionalism (yes Pep), but risks well within the remit of what we have seen from him before like the purposeful counterattacking football that made us the second favourite team for every non-Utd fan out there, if he could just bend a little. But he won't.

It's like being managed by Jesus. God sent him to save football from its sins but we're getting crucified in the process.

Brilliant :lol:

I wholeheartedly agree btw

[Niall_Quinn]

For a season, maybe. If we'd really slumped in to mid-table (as many on here endlessly predicted we would) then I think he'd have been long gone.
I'm not even sure he cares what the fans thing and, to an extent, I'm not sure he should. Fans are reactionary - look at the over-reactions you get on here after certain results.
IMO he'll only leave when either he thinks it's time to move on or if pushed by the board.

Yes, the overreaction is a bit much sometimes. It has only been 10 years of the same stuff, so the knee-jerking is ridiculous.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's like being managed by Jesus

You mean they are both delusional?

Well as long as Wenger isn't instructing his players to turn the other cheek, give no thought to the morrow and he isn't going round randomly cursing fig trees

[LDG]

You mean they are both delusional?

Well as long as Wenger isn't instructing his players to turn the other cheek, give no thought to the morrow and he isn't going round randomly cursing fig trees

That was funny when TA dropped him.

[Power n Glory]

I can think of 2 fans who have confidence him. One's a lunatic called Ty and the other a bookie who bets against him, because you have to be a lunatic or have an agenda to claim confidence in a guy who fails to maximise his resources so consistently and predictably. However, most fans still have respect for him and what he did in the past and that's what keeps his arse in that chair. If that respect was lost then he'd be out in a flash but I doubt that will happen at Arsenal and I'm not sure it should either. I like a moan about Wenger but if I'd have been up at that game where the arseholes waited and shouted into his face I'd have stabbed them. This gives the fans who want him out a difficult task. Even raising a very respectful and moderate banner gets you roundly condemned - not the Arsenal Way, etc, etc. Seems to me the Arsenal way is to spread 'em and try not to squeal.

Another problem - as football sinks ever deeper into the deepest of sewers with criminals owning clubs and human rights abusers and child abusers and fraudsters at FIFA and pampered prick players who can't play for toffee or refuse to play at all, and the shitty pundits who make fake news on CNN look trustworthy and informative, and the grubby agents and the doping and the cheating refs and the whole damn English con game called the PL - in the face of all that, Wenger's a bloody saint. He's respected right across the game because he behaves in a manner the rest can't afford to behave in, and he's done it since day one. Can an owner turn around and say, you know that guy who makes us all the money and never brings a moment of trouble to this club? We need to sack him and bring Harry Redknapp in, you know the crooked little wheeler, dealer who will do what it takes to win and damn the consequences? They will never, ever do it.

So all that's left is terrible frustration. If Wenger could just take a few risks, not the grubby types of risk that characterise the modern "greats", like teaching your players how to dive and call it professionalism (yes Pep), but risks well within the remit of what we have seen from him before like the purposeful counterattacking football that made us the second favourite team for every non-Utd fan out there, if he could just bend a little. But he won't.

It's like being managed by Jesus. God sent him to save football from its sins but we're getting crucified in the process.

Pretty much. The respect is still there with Wenger and probably what's stopping fans from totally losing it at the Emirates. But the other option is for fans to not go to the games.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That was funny when TA dropped him.

Ha

[Xhaka Can’t]

Right so if every Arsenal fan stopped subscribing to the tv channels the revenue would simply disappear? :lol:

Should we petition every other fan of any other club whose subscription heavily contributes to the TV money we receive?

.

That is the shittiest misrepresentation of an argument I've read in fucking months.

And I've been avidly following Brexit and American politics.

[Letters]

And I've been avidly following Brexit and American politics.

:lol:

[Letters]

You mean they are both delusional?
Mad, bad or God...

#CSLewis :bow:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That is the shittiest misrepresentation of an argument I've read in fucking months.

And I've been avidly following Brexit and American politics.

No I'm just making the point that fans aren't as consequential to the revenue stream as we like to think

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Mad, bad or God...

#CSLewis :bow:

Good People will do Good things, Evil people will do Evil things. But for a Good person to do Evil things, that takes religion - Christopher Hitchens

[Letters]

Good People will do Good things, Evil people will do Evil things. But for a Good person to do Evil things, that takes religion - Christopher Hitchens

"No one is good--except God alone." - Jesus.

[Letters]

No I'm just making the point that fans aren't as consequential to the revenue stream as we like to think

Which is bull poo. Of course we are. Why is there no money in woman's football? Because there isn't the interest.
Like any business it relies on its customer base. Remove that and the whole thing comes crashing down. Obviously that won't happen but ultimately the whole thing relies on the fans to keep it afloat.

[Power n Glory]

No I'm just making the point that fans aren't as consequential to the revenue stream as we like to think

You clearly have no idea how advertising and sponsorship works. Stop talking. :lol:

[Power n Glory]

Which is bull poo. Of course we are. Why is there no money in woman's football? Because there isn't the interest.
Like any business it relies on its customer base. Remove that and the whole thing comes crashing down. Obviously that won't happen but ultimately the whole thing relies on the fans to keep it afloat.

A big steaming pile of bull poo! :lol: Good point on Women's football.

Side note - Christmas is over this guy >>:lol: should lose the hat.

[Letters]

Side note - Christmas is over this guy >>:lol: should lose the hat.
Shift+F5, bro...

(Clear your cache).

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Now who is misrepresenting whose argument now?

Please do find where i have stated that football could exist without fans, either financially or logistically

But the corporate revenue streams mean that we aren't as important as we used to be where we used to be the only thing that mattered.

We are at a point where clubs that have existed barely a decade are challenging for the title in Germany (RB Leipzig) that simply would not be possible with football supporters alone.

[GP]

Now who is misrepresenting whose argument now?

Please do find where i have stated that football could exist without fans, either financially or logistically

But the corporate revenue streams mean that we aren't as important as we used to be where we used to be the only thing that mattered.

We are at a point where clubs that have existed barely a decade are challenging for the title in Germany (RB Leipzig) that simply would not be possible with football supporters alone.

the Red Bull effect is strong there.

They did the same in F1. Just buying up all the talent.

[Letters]

Obviously an investor can come in and buy success and that doesn't rely on the fans, but they're only doing it because of the worldwide exposure and fan-base football has.
One way or another it all comes back to us.
I don't expect it to change but any business ultimately depends on its customer base.

[Niall_Quinn]

Good People will do Good things, Evil people will do Evil things. But for a Good person to do Evil things, that takes religion - Christopher Hitchens

"Faith", would be a better word than religion. The faithful will do whatever is asked of them in service of the faith.

[Niall_Quinn]

Now who is misrepresenting whose argument now?

Please do find where i have stated that football could exist without fans, either financially or logistically

But the corporate revenue streams mean that we aren't as important as we used to be where we used to be the only thing that mattered.

We are at a point where clubs that have existed barely a decade are challenging for the title in Germany (RB Leipzig) that simply would not be possible with football supporters alone.

The corporations only stick money in because after it all winds out they want more money. And that money will come from us, the consumers. Brand X invests in football to raise its profile by association. Eventually Brand X filters into the consumer consciousness and gains a competitive edge over those brands less well publicised. More people buy brand X, and a lot of those new consumers will most likely have an interest in football too because that's where they gained their awareness. If it didn't work this way there wouldn't be a penny of sponsorship in football. A particularly good example is the gambling filth that has infiltrated the game from top to bottom. They must be spending a fortune. I bet they are taking ten times as much back from the poor saps on their mobile phones, glued to the game and waiting to cash out.

All of it revolves round us, the consumer. Football, the economy, the whole western world. We are the most powerful force ever to exist, more powerful than the US armed forces, more powerful than China's million man army. We just don't exercise that power. But in terms of importance, there's nothing bigger. We don't need to go anywhere near a football stadium to have a dramatic effect on football.

[Niall_Quinn]

And here's how the huge sums ploughed in by the TV companies is paid for. Oh, us again.


From August BT TV subscribers will pay £3.50 a month for BT Sport, which has been free for broadband customers.
Landline customers will see phone plans increase, and the cost of calls will go up by 1p a minute.
Rivals Sky, Virgin Media and TalkTalk have all announced price increases within the last year.

One way or another, every last shipment of cash being craned into the owners', managers' and players' bank accounts started life in our wallets.

[Power n Glory]

And that price hike will remain long after BT have lost their exclusive rights.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And here's how the huge sums ploughed in by the TV companies is paid for. Oh, us again.



One way or another, every last shipment of cash being craned into the owners', managers' and players' bank accounts started life in our wallets.

Oh just fuck off.

I'm referring to the price hike.

Not you

[Xhaka Can’t]

And that price hike will remain long after BT have lost their exclusive rights.

Yeah but they'll still have the CFL.

Go Stamps Go!

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh just fuck off.

I'm referring to the price hike.

Not you

But you were referring to me on the other thread - weren't you :sulk:

Which is kind of pointless considering we have the same name.