Match Reaction vs Bayern Munich (home)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That went well.

[Marc Overmars]

A nadir that perhaps equals the 8-2 at Old Trafford.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm fine with our performance.

I think we were the better team, albeit with Bayern knowing they had already won.

Then an Asian loving UEFA cunt changed the game. After that, nothing counts - not unless the UEFA cunt gets killed in a car crash, in which case that's justice.

[Munchies]

Wenger blaming the refs

:haha:

DT and Troopz put the banner up after the game and these 2 fans swearing at them
vid https://twitter.com/SportsJOE_UK/status/839234544939200512

:lol:

[Power n Glory]

Wenger blaming the refs

:haha:

DT and Troopz put the banner up after the game and these 2 fans swearing at them
vid https://twitter.com/SportsJOE_UK/status/839234544939200512

:lol:

Everything about our club is an embarrassment right now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

That went well.

I disagree

[GP]

DT and Trumpz or whatever his name is are the biggest embarrassments this club has ever seen.

[Marc Overmars]

Everything about our club is an embarrassment right now.

Indeed.

A board that think everything is fine and dandy.
Deluded manger clinging on for dear life.
2 best players wanting out.
A fanbase ripped to shreds.

Complete shambles.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think this Wenger Out thing os put of control. I agree with Wenger Out! Absolutely!

Buy there are circumstances that override. We can be Wenger out tomorrow. But for tonight, somebody should be talking about the blatant cheating that rigged the result in this game.

[fakeyank]

Has Arsenal Fan TV made any uploads from today's game yet? :lol:

[Power n Glory]

NQ - give it a rest for tonight.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Indeed.

A board that think everything is fine and dandy.
Deluded manger clinging on for dear life.
2 best players wanting out.
A fanbase ripped to shreds.

Complete shambles.

And Usmanov's fat.

[Niall_Quinn]

Has Arsenal Fan TV made any uploads from today's game yet? :lol:

Don't we know in advance what they'll say? Isn'y AFTV sort of like everything that happens at this club? Predictable.

We can all moan. But what are the ingenious solutions to the problems we face?

[Niall_Quinn]

NQ - give it a rest for tonight.

NO

[Xhaka Can’t]

AFTV is the only thing about this Club that at least makes makes me laugh at funny.

[Marc Overmars]

I still think we've got a good chance of pulling off an upset and beating Lincoln.

[rodders]

I can see us losing to Lincoln now.

[Ernesto]

I still think we've got a good chance of pulling off an upset and beating Lincoln.

They're won 4-0 tonight (just saying)

[Niall_Quinn]

AFTV is the only thing about this Club that at least makes makes me laugh at funny.

Yeah, I watch it. Only because it's sometimes not on rails.

Lineker currently pretending he doesn't love the meltdown at Arsenal. And that foreign bloke, Hargreaves, he's being SO, So, reasonable.

[LDG]

AFTV is the only thing about this Club that at least makes makes me laugh at funny.

You makes makes me laugh at funny.

[Ernesto]

Yeah, I watch it. Only because it's sometimes not on rails.

Lineker currently pretending he doesn't love the meltdown at Arsenal. And that foreign bloke, Hargreaves, he's being SO, So, reasonable.

The animosity towards the club shown by the media at the minute is appalling. It's rather like being a Leeds fan.

[Power n Glory]

Mate, chill the fuck out!

[Niall_Quinn]

The animosity towards the club shown by the media at the minute is appalling. It's rather like being a Leeds fan.

Agreed. Fuck them. For all our problems, we are against those cunts, right?

RIGHT?

[Niall_Quinn]

Mate, chill the fuck out!

What do you mean?

[RomfordPele]

"Fuck off kroenke, get out of our club."

Best thing I heard all night.

Let's keep it up. 50,000 of us next week. Make the bastard squirm for his money every fucking match.

[Niall_Quinn]

You makes makes me laugh at funny.

Admit it. You;re as pissed as I am.

[Letters]

makes me laugh at funny.
Are you drunk? :blink:

[Letters]

They're won 4-0 tonight (just saying)

They probably weren't playing Bayern to be fair.

[Power n Glory]

What do you mean?

You sound like you're on the verge of a mental breakdown. Relax.

[Letters]

Dammit, I'm sure there's a better way of doing this but check out the Wenger WWTAM video :lol:

https://www.facebook.com/thefootballrepublic/

[Niall_Quinn]

Right, here we go.

UEFA cheating aside, we are an embarrassment.

It is time to fix the shit tat has been going on for 13 years. Right?

is there anyone here who doesn't think it is time to fix the shit that has been going on for 13 years?

That's quite a long time, btw.

How is it fixed?

Well. Wenger won't change. Anyone who doesn't agree with that statement?

And if he won't change the he'll do the same thing he's been doing for the past 13 years.

Just using logic here.

So Wenger out, right?

That's logical.

Anyone here who doesn't agree with that? and if so, please, explain why. I'd love to hear it. Facts please, not media soundbites.

After that, who knows?

But you know what...

It will be different.

Oh blessed joy.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Dammit, I'm sure there's a better way of doing this but check out the Wenger WWTAM video :lol:

https://www.facebook.com/thefootballrepublic/

Hang on he was actually on french who wants to be a millionaire

i fucking hope he was giving what he won to charity

[AFC Leveller]

The ref killed the bit of positivity and hope we had going but 10-2 over two legs is shocking. We simply don't belong at this level with Wenger.

Him saying we are unlucky to be drawn against big teams every year is embarrassing and sad.

[Niall_Quinn]

The ref killed the bit of positivity and hope we had going but 10-2 over two legs is shocking. We simply don't belong at this level with Wenger.

Him saying we are unlucky to be drawn against big teams every year is embarrassing and sad.

If it had been a fair game Wenger would still have lost.

I just want a fair game.

[Chippy]

Wenger blaming the refs

:haha:

DT and Troopz put the banner up after the game and these 2 fans swearing at them
vid https://twitter.com/SportsJOE_UK/status/839234544939200512

:lol:

Why are they opposed to the banner? Those cunts have just seen us take another thrashing! Some people are fucking stupid.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why are they opposed to the banner? Those cunts have just seen us take another thrashing! Some people are fucking stupid.

stockholm syndrome

[Niall_Quinn]

stockholm syndrome

They are queer. Must be.

[Marc Overmars]

https://twitter.com/thearsenalchris/status/839236809846624256

This guy. :lol:

[Xhaka Can’t]

We'll get 'em next time.

ONWARDS AND SIDEWAYS!!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

I thought I'd completely missed the match then I find a whole bunch of posts by me here. So I guess I must have watched it. What was the score?

[Niall_Quinn]

My God, this guy's voice. It's like a stressed turbine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR44Pa5fdqE

Moh, AKB in disguise.

Please, somebody switch him off.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

he has a point in that in terms of league position finishing we are on par for the size of the club, and that whilst we can expect to be doing better and not capitulate all the time we cannot expect to directly compete with the likes of Bayern Munich and Real Madrid without an Usmanov spunking money at the club.

What we can expect is not to fall at the last 16 of the CL every season, not to collapse in the same familiar way when we have a title challenge, and in the next 13 seasons maybe win the title once or twice.

[Letters]

I thought I'd completely missed the match then I find a whole bunch of posts by me here. So I guess I must have watched it. What was the score?

5-1 :trophy:



...just don't ask who to.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bit embarrassing to be an Arsenal fan at the moment.

[Letters]

I bet we show those Lincoln chaps a thing or two though... :cool:

[Niall_Quinn]

he has a point in that in terms of league position finishing we are on par for the size of the club, and that whilst we can expect to be doing better and not capitulate all the time we cannot expect to directly compete with the likes of Bayern Munich and Real Madrid without an Usmanov spunking money at the club.

What we can expect is not to fall at the last 16 of the CL every season, not to collapse in the same familiar way when we have a title challenge, and in the next 13 seasons maybe win the title once or twice.

We've finished on average 14 points behind the champions over the last 10 seasons and we're likely to hit that average again this season. Whatever the financial variance, we aren't seriously competing and we haven't been for a long time. The CL thing underlines that. It's an appalling record for a club this size.

[Marc Overmars]

My God, this guy's voice. It's like a stressed turbine.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SR44Pa5fdqE

Moh, AKB in disguise.

Please, somebody switch him off.

Moh. :lol:

I've never heard someone speak so much but actually say very little.

[Özim]

This club has literally no pride left, time after time after time we get thrashed, you'd at least expect they'd give it a good go or keep it reasonable in the return but every single time we get beaten and show no real fight and desire, it's just not acceptable.

To me it just shows they don't really care that much as a group and that clearly the manager is incompetent at this level, like I said before this club is unrecognisable from 10 years ago and not in a good way. We're in a right mess, no other big club capitulates like us so often, if it does happen to them it's a one off, with us though it happens every single season, sometimes several times a season, just not acceptable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've finished on average 14 points behind the champions over the last 10 seasons and we're likely to hit that average again this season. Whatever the financial variance, we aren't seriously competing and we haven't been for a long time. The CL thing underlines that. It's an appalling record for a club this size.

Oh Totally, but to be fair on Moh i don't think he's defending this or claiming we are seriously competing

[Marc Overmars]

This club has literally no pride left, time after time after time we get thrashed, you'd at least expect they'd give it a good go or keep it reasonable in the return but every single time we get beaten and show no real fight and desire, it's just not acceptable.

To me it just shows they don't really care that much as a group and that clearly the manager is incompetent at this level, like I said before this club is unrecognisable from 10 years ago and not in a good way. We're in a right mess, no other big club capitulates like us so often, if it does happen to them it's a one off, with us though it happens every single season, sometimes several times a season, just not acceptable.

The players are not playing for him anymore, they're completely beleaguered and lost. They need a new voice and some leadership and organisation. Wenger needs to make a public announcement on his contract because it's killing us.

[Özim]

The players are not playing for him anymore, they're completely beleaguered and lost. They need a new voice and some leadership and organisation. Wenger needs to make a public announcement on his contract because it's killing us.

I agree, but over the years I've noticed that if we've got thrashed by 3, 4, 5 goals in the corresponding return feature we don't really play with anything to prove, personally I would think in the return you'd be keep to prove it was a one off and that your can beat them, we just lose almost every time and certainly show no real fight.

For me pound for pound the worst Arsenal side I've seen all things considered, sure we had teams with less talent, but do you know what, they could still upset the odds, they could still win stuff even though they weren't the most talented, this team however, bunch of losers to be honest, just like the manager.

[Letters]

We've finished on average 14 points behind the champions over the last 10 seasons and we're likely to hit that average again this season. Whatever the financial variance, we aren't seriously competing and we haven't been for a long time. The CL thing underlines that. It's an appalling record for a club this size.

The joke's on you! I checked and it's only an average of 13 points.


Wenger :bow:



Meh.

[Letters]

Moh. :lol:

I've never heard someone speak so much but actually say very little.

You've never met MrsL <_<

[Ralpheroo72]

Bellerin left to apologise to the fans, no sign of that cunt Gazidis or that other cunt Kroenke. Fucking shambles.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bellerin left to apologise to the fans, no sign of that cunt Gazidis or that other cunt Kroenke. Fucking shambles.

Kroenke is busy evicting people from their homes and Gazidis was sunbathing on a rock in the desert. Besides, they are probably saving their apologies for when Wenger signs his new contract.

[Özim]

Listen to this guy, courage, huge effort :lol:


Arsenal lost any momentum and conceded four goals in 17 minutes but, despite suffering the biggest aggregate defeat of an English side in the Champions League, Wenger said the result did not "reflect the courage of the performance".


"Overall it's difficult to understand what's happened," he told BT Sport. "I still must say my team has produced a huge effort and played very well."




http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39201464

Once again the guy never blames the team, even with such pathetic displays in both games, no wonder they don't care, they get told they did well even when thrashed.

[Niall_Quinn]

Strangely unbothered by this today. New tactic for me, get massively pissed BEFORE the game, don't wait until after. I can't remember the game, I think I missed the first half, second half is just a blur. Something about a foreign fella robbing us and Bif and the side of a barn. Who knows. Anyway, if you can't remember it then you can't be upset by it.

[Marc Overmars]

Listen to this guy, courage, huge effort :lol:




http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/39201464

Once again the guy never blames the team, even with such pathetic displays in both games, no wonder they don't care, they get told they did well even when thrashed.

It's difficult to understand what's happened. :lol:

You never do understand, Arsene.

[Power n Glory]

The players are not playing for him anymore, they're completely beleaguered and lost. They need a new voice and some leadership and organisation. Wenger needs to make a public announcement on his contract because it's killing us.

I saw something a little different last night. I could be wrong but the effort was there and it looked like we kept playing until the final whistle. They kept on bombing forward and looking for goals and that was the problem. We were exposed by the manager. He made no sub to replace Kos despite having Gabriel being on the bench and threw on more attackers. Down to 10 men and we threw everything forward only to be hit on the break again and again.

When the manager comes and says he’s proud of the performance, I think he’s being honest because they operated under instruction and there was no indication from the bench that he wanted them to defend and stop leaking goals.

[Özim]

The club in great shape according to Wenger :lol:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10794300/arsene-wenger-insists-arsenal-are-in-great-shape-despite-humiliating-bayern-munich-defeat

[Letters]

It's good to see Zim enjoying himself so much. :rolleyes:

[Özim]

It's difficult to understand what's happened. :lol:

You never do understand, Arsene.

Stuff like this is why fans can't stand him, stand up and accept responsibility and have a go at players if they're not good enough on a given day, he does the opposite and praises during a thrashing, it's ridiculous he really makes it worse for himself.

[Özim]

It's good to see Zim enjoying himself so much. :rolleyes:

I'm hoping we're seeing the end of Wenger, as I have for as long as I can remember, then maybe I can start enjoying football and things can be less predictable, it's been a long wait, I've said it many times before Wenger and his cronies have ruined football for me, they've squeezed ever little drop of enjoyment out of it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Not quite sure there is anything remotely enjoyable about any of this, especially as we have no guarantee Wenger won't stay with the club no matter what

I think there is a relief to know that in all likelihood that whether he stays or doesn't, that was probably his last champions league match as manager

The only way any of this will have any meaning is if he announces now that he's going, but we know that won't happen....so we are in a sort of purgatory.

[Özim]

Supposedly the Bayern team cost less than our team, they're a cut above though, they have better players all round which just shows how poor our transfers have been as well.

The Robbens, Riberys, Lewandowskis, Hummels, Vidals, Costa, Martinez, all players we could have got but we've made so many mistakes in the transfer market and wasted so much money.

[Letters]

I'm hoping we're seeing the end of Wenger, as I have for as long as I can remember
You can't remember anything before 2004? You should see a doctor about that.

[Power n Glory]

Supposedly the Bayern team cost less than our team, they're a cut above though, they have better players all round which just shows how poor our transfers have been as well.

The Robbens, Riberys, Lewandowskis, Hummels, Vidals, Costa, Martinez, all players we could have got but we've made so many mistakes in the transfer market and wasted so much money.

Would have loved to have Costa in our team. Vidal as well. Meh....

[Özim]

You can't remember anything before 2004? You should see a doctor about that.

You need to see a doctor about your obsession with me tbh. :lol:

[Letters]

Replace "You" with "I", "your" with "my" and "me" with "Wenger" :tiphat:

[Özim]

Replace "You" with "I", "your" with "my" and "me" with "Wenger" :tiphat:

This is an Arsenal forum so talking about Wenger is part and parcel of that to be honest, especially since he dominates everything at Arsenal.

[Letters]

This is an Arsenal forum so talking about Wenger is part and parcel of that to be honest, especially since he dominates everything at Arsenal.

Sure. But acting like he shagged your mum and never called her again as you have for years is weird and unhealthy and I'm not the only person who has picked you up on it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Would have loved to have Costa in our team. Vidal as well. Meh....

Vidal has discipline problems. So we went for Xhaka instead. Costa would kill Theo's development.

[GP]

Wenger in! *








*to a wood chipper.

[Power n Glory]

Sure. But acting like he shagged your mum and never called her again as you have for years is weird and unhealthy and I'm not the only person who has picked you up on it.

:doh: Block Zim or just shut the fuck up! You repeat the same argument every time.

[Özim]

Sure. But acting like he shagged your mum and never called her again as you have for years is weird and unhealthy and I'm not the only person who has picked you up on it.

:lol: You're funny, I don't have to explain myself again, I've explained what I think of him, you for some reason take exception to it, at the end of the day the guy as a manager is not great and I've thought so for quite some time, what we're seeing now is a culmination of him staying on when in reality he should have gone years ago, but as I've said before he's had an easy ride from the fans overall.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Sure. But acting like he shagged your mum and never called her again as you have for years is weird and unhealthy and I'm not the only person who has picked you up on it.

Honestly, what does it matter?

[The Dismantler]

DT and Trumpz or whatever his name is are the biggest embarrassments this club has ever seen.

Those two lads are man enough to come on social media and tell it like it is! And I agree with them on the banner!
A revolution is coming to Arsenal, board needs to fuck off, Wenger needs to piss off too! Without fans protesting Kroenke the prick will think everything is going rosey for the club!

Well done DT and Troopz. Wenger needs to come out now and say he is leaving the club at the end of the season and the banners will not come out!

Next time I will help them hold that banner!

[Xhaka Can’t]

There is a risk here that we aren't getting things in perspective.

I suppose that's only natural when the club you've invested in pretty much almost your whole life has just achieved the highest ever aggregate defeat by any English club in the history of European football.

[selassie]

Supposedly the Bayern team cost less than our team, they're a cut above though, they have better players all round which just shows how poor our transfers have been as well.

The Robbens, Riberys, Lewandowskis, Hummels, Vidals, Costa, Martinez, all players we could have got but we've made so many mistakes in the transfer market and wasted so much money.

Wenger's recruitment over the past few years has been nothing short of a disgrace. He has bought badly, wasting millions on average players. I suspect if he was at any other club he would have been shown the door. The sad thing is many very good players have been available at prices well within our budget yet for one reason or another we have missed out on them.

Can anybody tell me why we went for Xhaka when Kante was available at a lower price? Yet again Kante is head and shoulders the best CM in the Prem yet we turn our nose up at him when he was offered to us so we can bring in Xhaka!!!

[selassie]

I saw something a little different last night. I could be wrong but the effort was there and it looked like we kept playing until the final whistle. They kept on bombing forward and looking for goals and that was the problem. We were exposed by the manager. He made no sub to replace Kos despite having Gabriel being on the bench and threw on more attackers. Down to 10 men and we threw everything forward only to be hit on the break again and again.

When the manager comes and says he’s proud of the performance, I think he’s being honest because they operated under instruction and there was no indication from the bench that he wanted them to defend and stop leaking goals.

:lol: I laugh but I reckon this is nail on head P'n'G, it's actually quite sad.

[Özim]

Wenger's recruitment over the past few years has been nothing short of a disgrace. He has bought badly, wasting millions on average players. I suspect if he was at any other club he would have been shown the door. The sad thing is many very good players have been available at prices well within our budget yet for one reason or another we have missed out on them.

Can anybody tell me why we went for Xhaka when Kante was available at a lower price? Yet again Kante is head and shoulders the best CM in the Prem yet we turn our nose up at him when he was offered to us so we can bring in Xhaka!!!

Yeah I agree, our transfer policy has been awful, so many players who were better than we have we could have brought in, but in the end I guess they weren't projects as they were more established players which Wenger generally turns his nose up at.

I really don't rate this group of players at all, bar a handful we should have a massive clearout to be honest, once again we have a lot of deadwood and sub standard players you can't build a top team with, it lacks all kinds of ingredients you need to win the big trophies, leadership, fight, desire, passion all key ingredients which help you to beat top sides and sometimes upset the odds. The organisation is also poor, defensively we're shocking and have been for years and a good team is based on a good defence at the end of the day.

There's a lot to deal with if a new manager comes in, the club is definitely not in a good place for any new manager to come in, it's a very, very, big job IMO.

[Letters]

:doh: Block Zim or just shut the fuck up! You repeat the same argument every time.

As does he, but you only pick me up on it because of your little vendetta against me :lol:

Are you going to call me stupid next? That's pretty much your only line of argument.

[Letters]

Honestly, what does it matter?

Does it add anything to objective and reasonable debate?
You've picked him up on the same sort of thing enough times and banned him from theads because of it :shrug:

[Power n Glory]

:lol: I laugh but I reckon this is nail on head P'n'G, it's actually quite sad.

With that sort of mentality coming from the boss, how are we to go about fixing an issue? It’s something that was touched on yesterday from IBK (aka Subs – GW Legend :bow: )thread. I have no idea how we change the culture of the this club. It’s not going to come from the odd player that plays for pride and it won’t come from the Board. The only feasible solution I can see is a change of manager.

Hargreaves was arguing with Rio last night that Wenger needed help the Board need to take the heat off him. I’ve seen a similar argument on Arseblog, from Moh on Arsenal Fan TV and on here at times. How can anyone help someone that is so entrenched in their own ways that they won’t accept help or a different approach? We don’t have a Board that aren’t receptive to new ideas from Wenger. I don’t think they’d turn him away if he accepted he needed to shake up his coaching staff or more money for better players. Also, we don’t have a Board that won’t impose ideas on Wenger because I guess they respect his work and hold him in high regards. I see what fans like Moh and Arseblog say about Wenger and how they revere and I suspect that’s the attitude that comes down from Board level. That’s why I can’t see them pulling the trigger unless things got so out of hand that their hand is forced. This is why we get the extreme posts and talk of us wanting to lose games or drop out of the Top 4 because fans can’t see no other way of the message getting through to the Board and shaking up the culture.

I get that people have reservations about the #WengerOut protests and would rather some focus on the Board, but Stan isn’t selling up any time soon unless attendance drops in a serious way. And it would take years for that to happen and we’d seriously damage the club in the process. It’s a mess. The only hope we have is a new manager that comes in and puts pressure on the Board to shake things up because it’s clear Wenger isn’t doing that at the moment. I was reading Arseblog today and I don’t get his position. Is he blaming the Board for not firing Wenger? Anyway…forgive the long winded rant.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is it last night's match that is causing all this, or are you trying to all do your own unique tribute to International Women's day?

Either way it's not as entertaining as Underscore NQ's Mel Gibson impression last night

[Letters]

There is a risk here that we aren't getting things in perspective.

I suppose that's only natural when the club you've invested in pretty much almost your whole life has just achieved the highest ever aggregate defeat by any English club in the history of European football.

Is that so? Another record! :trophy:
Tbh, I don't care about that. Last night's result was clearly skewed by the referee. I care about the bigger picture about us being competitive with the sides we should be competitive. In Europe there is no disgrace in losing to Bayern but we should be able to give them a game and domestically I don't think anyone is going to get close to Chelsea this year and fair play to them but, again, do what you can to put pressure on and be as competitive as you can. We shouldn't be scrabbling around desperately trying to finish top 4 and hopefully finishing above Spurs.

[Power n Glory]

As does he, but you only pick me up on it because of your little vendetta against me :lol:

Are you going to call me stupid next? That's pretty much your only line of argument.

Because you always start it. Every time. Without fail and it's that obvious. You don't usually get into personal insults on here but you often do it with Zim. Why?

Also, I have no vendetta against you. Why would I? On other threads and where I feel you're right, I'll say my piece and defend what you have to say. You seem to forget those moments. ;)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

With that sort of mentality coming from the boss, how are we to go about fixing an issue? It’s something that was touched on yesterday from IBK (aka Subs – GW Legend :bow: )thread. I have no idea how we change the culture of the this club. It’s not going to come from the odd player that plays for pride and it won’t come from the Board. The only feasible solution I can see is a change of manager.

Hargreaves was arguing with Rio last night that Wenger needed help the Board need to take the heat off him. I’ve seen a similar argument on Arseblog, from Moh on Arsenal Fan TV and on here at times. How can anyone help someone that is so entrenched in their own ways that they won’t accept help or a different approach? We don’t have a Board that aren’t receptive to new ideas from Wenger. I don’t think they’d turn him away if he accepted he needed to shake up his coaching staff or more money for better players. Also, we don’t have a Board that won’t impose ideas on Wenger because I guess they respect his work and hold him in high regards. I see what fans like Moh and Arseblog say about Wenger and how they revere and I suspect that’s the attitude that comes down from Board level. That’s why I can’t see them pulling the trigger unless things got so out of hand that their hand is forced. This is why we get the extreme posts and talk of us wanting to lose games or drop out of the Top 4 because fans can’t see no other way of the message getting through to the Board and shaking up the culture.

I get that people have reservations about the #WengerOut protests and would rather some focus on the Board, but Stan isn’t selling up any time soon unless attendance drops in a serious way. And it would take years for that to happen and we’d seriously damage the club in the process. It’s a mess. The only hope we have is a new manager that comes in and puts pressure on the Board to shake things up because it’s clear Wenger isn’t doing that at the moment. I was reading Arseblog today and I don’t get his position. Is he blaming the Board for not firing Wenger? Anyway…forgive the long winded rant.

Having listened to the Arsecast on monday, my understanding is that he does blame the Board for this yes. He believes that even if some fans reactions are distasteful they essentially have tacit approval from Ivan Gazidis as per his statement of 2011....and it's reprehensible that the board are forcing the fan's hands like this.
He also believes more focus should be put on the board, because whilst getting rid of Wenger is essential it's not the all encompassing magical remedy some might think it is. There is essentially no guarantee we won't be in this position again with a new man.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because you always start it. Every time. Without fail and it's that obvious. You don't usually get into personal insults on here but you often do it with Zim. Why?

Also, I have no vendetta against you. Why would I? On other threads and where I feel you're right, I'll say my piece and defend what you have to say. You seem to forget those moments. ;)

Zim comes out with the most ridiculous statements and then when the chips are down pretends everything he has said is wholly reasonable and comes across with "see i told you so".

I detest the notion from the AKB faction that those who want Wenger out are revelling in this chaos, but in Zim's case and he would even admit it himself he's in his element.

[Niall_Quinn]

As does he, but you only pick me up on it because of your little vendetta against me :lol:

Are you going to call me stupid next? That's pretty much your only line of argument.

Stupid.

[Niall_Quinn]

Last night's game was always going to be farcical one way or another because we blew it so badly in the first leg. The focus should still be on that game. Another hiding when we needed to show we have learned a few things from 20 years of CL competition. But we didn't and we haven't. That's down to Wenger. Not the board, not the players, not the fans. 20 years experience and he's still taking teams away from home and getting pasted. It's a terrible indictment. The only thing we have achieved from 20 years of competition at the top level is a bank full of cash - which is pure coincidence.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Does it add anything to objective and reasonable debate?
You've picked him up on the same sort of thing enough times and banned him from theads because of it :shrug:

When it was clear he was on the wum.

Go for the man when on the wum go for the argument when not.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Is that so? Another record! :trophy:
Tbh, I don't care about that. Last night's result was clearly skewed by the referee. I care about the bigger picture about us being competitive with the sides we should be competitive. In Europe there is no disgrace in losing to Bayern but we should be able to give them a game and domestically I don't think anyone is going to get close to Chelsea this year and fair play to them but, again, do what you can to put pressure on and be as competitive as you can. We shouldn't be scrabbling around desperately trying to finish top 4 and hopefully finishing above Spurs.

Other teams, including us have faced situations when they've been fucked over by a ref.

But none have capitulated in such a cowardly manner.

Ever.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Other teams, including us have faced situations when they've been fucked over by a ref.

But none have capitulated in such a cowardly manner.

Ever.

In fairness this was the point i was making last night, 1) there was no evidence to go with the assertion of corruption and 2) it was totally irrelevant anyway

However both you and the other NQ rounded on me like i was Michel Platini

[Xhaka Can’t]

There was another element. The corruption in and surrounding the game is so ingrained in its governance and culture that there is far too big a chance that last nights referring 'mistakes' aren't mistakes at all.

That is entirely separate from the argument that collectively, we are a team of cowards.

[Niall_Quinn]

In fairness this was the point i was making last night, 1) there was no evidence to go with the assertion of corruption and 2) it was totally irrelevant anyway

However both you and the other NQ rounded on me like i was Michel Platini

Did I? I'm sure you deserved it then. And can you prove you aren't Platini?

[Letters]

Because you always start it. Every time.
I'm replying to HIS messages so how is it me starting it?
As HCZ has noted too, he's posting with obvious glee today.
I find it galling that someone who claims to support Arsenal would be relishing our failings and the personal nature of his distain for Wenger is just bizarre.
Meh. Whatever.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Did I? I'm sure you deserved it then. And can you prove you aren't Platini?

Oui

[Özim]

Zim comes out with the most ridiculous statements and then when the chips are down pretends everything he has said is wholly reasonable and comes across with "see i told you so".

I detest the notion from the AKB faction that those who want Wenger out are revelling in this chaos, but in Zim's case and he would even admit it himself he's in his element.

In your opinion of course, maybe they aren't that ridiculous and I've not once come out and said I told you so to anyone, I guess that's just something you feel rather than reality, I've had the same opinion for many years about the situation.

I don't revel in chaos as you put it, I've just wanted Wenger out for years, for the exact reasons we're seeing today, yes I will be happy when he leaves because for me he's ruined football, there's literally nothing I enjoy about theclub anymore and I lay this firmly at his door, the fact he chooses to patronise and act like he's better than everyone else and knows better than Jesus himself also grates, there's such thing as humility but the man doesn't know the meaning of the word. I've said many times before if he was more humble and acknowledged his faults and those of his players it would make a big difference, instead he rams the fact he and then are wonderful down your throat every single week.

Not my fault you don't like it, that's how I feel, since he changed our style of football, football has slowly become more and more irrelevant to the point that it's hard to watch us now as it's so mundane, there's no passion, no drive, no entertainment, no variety....just a whole lot of boredom and frustration at what I see and what we do every single transfer window.

So excuse me if I appear upbeat that the man who has turned the club into something that is the polar opposite of what it should be might be nearing his end with us.

[Özim]

I'm replying to HIS messages so how is it me starting it?
As HCZ has noted too, he's posting with obvious glee today.
I find it galling that someone who claims to support Arsenal would be relishing our failings and the personal nature of his distain for Wenger is just bizarre.
Meh. Whatever.

Do you? I find it galling that people like you have constantly been making excuses for Wengers failures and still see put him on some pedestal as if he's someone to look up to, his behaviour paints a different picture, one you point blank refuse to see.

It's not our failings I'm relishing at all, it's the fact we might actually see some change and someone different that brings back all the things that are good about football, unpredictability, excitement, change, variety and most importantly hope. I won't be sorry when Wenger leaves, to me he thinks he's gods gift to football and I frankly dislike the way he portrays himself as better than everyone else and points the finger at everyone but the players, the club and himself, even going as far as having the audacity of blaming the fans.....repeatedly, that's just unacceptable, he's done very well at the fans expense.

I don't like arrogance but if someone is hugely successful you can stomach it to a point as long as they don't ram it down your throat all the time, but when someone is so obviously a failure then I don't understand it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I should make the point that i have no real issue with Zim, and i'm sure he is capable of thoughtful analysis but i don't in anyway take him seriously.

Which is not even discriminatory as i don't take any of you that seriously. You've done nothing to prove to me that you are anything but products of my mundane imagination and that i'm doing anything but typing to myself.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In your opinion of course, maybe they aren't that ridiculous and I've not once come out and said I told you so to anyone, I guess that's just something you feel rather than reality, I've had the same opinion for many years about the situation.

I don't revel in chaos as you put it, I've just wanted Wenger out for years, for the exact reasons we're seeing today, yes I will be happy when he leaves because for me he's ruined football, there's literally nothing I enjoy about theclub anymore and I lay this firmly at his door, the fact he chooses to patronise and act like he's better than everyone else and knows better than Jesus himself also grates, there's such thing as humility but the man doesn't know the meaning of the word. I've said many times before if he was more humble and acknowledged his faults and those of his players it would make a big difference, instead he rams the fact he and then are wonderful down your throat every single week.

Not my fault you don't like it, that's how I feel, since he changed our style of football, football has slowly become more and more irrelevant to the point that it's hard to watch us now as it's so mundane, there's no passion, no drive, no entertainment, no variety....just a whole lot of boredom and frustration at what I see and what we do every single transfer window.

So excuse me if I appear upbeat that the man who has turned the club into something that is the polar opposite of what it should be might be nearing his end with us.


Off the top of my head you said you wished Wenger had never become manager, and you made a silly statement about Wenger celebrating one of our goals against Sutton like it was the winning goal in a champions league final.

Now you could totally sincerely believe that you wish the club had never appointed Wenger, but you can't expect that anyone will take anything you say seriously after that point.

I don't like that it's taking this chaotic situation to give us any hope of dislodging Wenger and i totally resent him for that, but as i say if you aren't enjoying this run of results you are certainly not giving off that impression.

[Letters]

i'm sure he is capable of thoughtful analysis.
Are you sure?
He hides it very well if so.

[Özim]

Off the top of my head you said you wished Wenger had never become manager, and you made a silly statement about Wenger celebrating one of our goals against Sutton like it was the winning goal in a champions league final.

Now you could totally sincerely believe that you wish the club had never appointed Wenger, but you can't expect that anyone will take anything you say seriously after that point.

I don't like that it's taking this chaotic situation to give us any hope of dislodging Wenger and i totally resent him for that, but as i say if you aren't enjoying this run of results you are certainly not giving off that impression.

I think by saying that (not sure those were my exact words), I was really questioning this ascertion that he's the best thing that ever happened to this club and that this club would be nowhere without him.

Look at the club today and tell me what's good about it when compared to say 2004, do you like what it's become, is this Wenger's legacy? Wenger did some great things, there's no doubt about it, but the state of the club right now is terrible in almost all aspects except financially.

As for the Sutton thing, I found it cringeworthy to be honest, we were playing non league opposition, we should have smacked them 5-6 nil at least, I don't really see what there is to celebrate when you score against a bunch of part timers.

I haven't enjoyed watching us for years to be honest, it's no different now, but yes I'm looking forward to the possibility of something new and exciting, 20 years is far far too long for any manager to be in charge, we're a prime example of why you should never keep a manager too ong.

[Letters]

I think by saying that (not sure those were my exact words), I was really questioning this ascertion that he's the best thing that ever happened to this club and that this club would be nowhere without him.
Who has asserted that?

[Letters]

As for the Sutton thing, I found it cringeworthy to be honest, we were playing non league opposition, we should have smacked them 5-6 nil at least, I don't really see what there is to celebrate when you score against a bunch of part timers.Did the fans simply nod at each other and shake hands?
It's a goal, people celebrated.
Neither the fans nor the manager nor the players celebrated wildly.

[Özim]

Who has asserted that?

Lots of people (he even seem so to have what appears to be his own cult folllowing), seems to me that people think this club would be nothing without Wenger, wrong we were a big successful club (one of the most successful in England) before he arrived, he did move us forward no doubt about that but what's happened in the last 10 years is equally a backwards step IMO, in terms of being a top football club anyway.

[Özim]

Did the fans simply nod at each other and shake hands?
It's a goal, people celebrated.
Neither the fans nor the manager nor the players celebrated wildly.

Fans are different, Wenger isn't a fan, not in the slightest that much is clear, he's so far separate from being a fan it's untrue, that's why he can't relate to them and blames them.

[Letters]

Fans are different, Wenger isn't a fan, not in the slightest that much is clear, he's so far separate from being a fan it's untrue, that's why he can't relate to them and blames them.

Are fans different? Why? He didn't celebrate wildly and pretty much every football manager celebrates pretty much every goal to some degree or other. He hardly ran along the touchline and started crowd surfing.


he's the best thing that ever happened to this club
That is impossible to quantify but he's certainly one of the most important figures in our modern history.


this club would be nowhere without him.
Literally no-one has said that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think by saying that (not sure those were my exact words), I was really questioning this ascertion that he's the best thing that ever happened to this club and that this club would be nowhere without him.

Look at the club today and tell me what's good about it when compared to say 2004, do you like what it's become, is this Wenger's legacy? Wenger did some great things, there's no doubt about it, but the state of the club right now is terrible in almost all aspects except financially.

As for the Sutton thing, I found it cringeworthy to be honest, we were playing non league opposition, we should have smacked them 5-6 nil at least, I don't really see what there is to celebrate when you score against a bunch of part timers.

I haven't enjoyed watching us for years to be honest, it's no different now, but yes I'm looking forward to the possibility of something new and exciting, 20 years is far far too long for any manager to be in charge, we're a prime example of why you should never keep a manager too ong.

When I'm not at work i will trawl through the archives and present to you that those were in fact exactly your words.

As for the Sutton thing, he hardly jumped from his seat, he smiled and gave a small fist pump....the same any manager would do in any circumstance.

Do you think anyone has enjoyed watching us more often than not the last few years, most of us for years have wanted Wenger to go...what we don't do is delight in it when we lose.....we all have known for some time he isn't capable of pushing forward but we want to be proved wrong....you seemingly don't.

[Letters]

As for the Sutton thing, he hardly jumped from his seat, he smiled and gave a small fist pump....the same any manager would do in any circumstance.
He actually stood up, smiled slightly, clapped 4 times and gave a very small fist pump for the first goal. Second goal he was already standing up, he clapped a few times, very small fist pump and that was that. Job done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdaByjtjoqk

Neither goal was celebrated like we'd "just won the Champions League" (which is how Zim described it).

[Power n Glory]

Having listened to the Arsecast on monday, my understanding is that he does blame the Board for this yes. He believes that even if some fans reactions are distasteful they essentially have tacit approval from Ivan Gazidis as per his statement of 2011....and it's reprehensible that the board are forcing the fan's hands like this.
He also believes more focus should be put on the board, because whilst getting rid of Wenger is essential it's not the all encompassing magical remedy some might think it is. There is essentially no guarantee we won't be in this position again with a new man.

You caught the Jame's (Gunnerblog) post and what IBK posted recently, right? I think the argument is misrepresented by Arseblog. A lot of people are just sick of seeing the same thing and want a change. We need confirmation that it is actually the Board holding us back and then we can take it from there if that's the case. At the moment, we have a manger that isn’t challenging them and that’s wrong. I doubt many think it will be a magical fix but it's a risk worth taking because we've gone around the block with this one long enough and exhausted all options except one.

Also, I don't think Gazidis is 100% behind Wenger. When Ivan said Wenger’s job depends on his ‘approval ratings’ with the fans, Ivan was taking a lot of heat for our failings. I don’t think Gazidis was speaking for the Board. I said years back when Gazidis announced that we had money to spend and spelt it out in plain terms, it put the spotlight firmly on Wenger. He gave an example of the type of player we could afford a long with the wages we could afford. Nothing coy or ambiguous said to leave the fans uncertain of what the new deals meant for the club. He’s a smart guy because he was always having to answer questions from fans or during the AGM of how much we had to spend and whether the figures PHW would come out with for the annual ‘war chest’ story included wages and transfers. So the £70m they were always talking about looked a lot less when you include wages with that figure. There was so much speculation when it came to our finances and Ivan killed the speculation. That’s why the focus has been on Wenger for the last 4 years.

Wenger created the rod for his own back. His argument was always that we didn’t have the money to compete. That argument has been blown out the water because not only has he had more money to spend, teams making a lot less than us have won league titles here and across Europe. The argument from most fans before was that the Board need to release more funds to the manager. That’s happened. Now it seems like the goal post has shifted slightly to now people wanting the Board to take the reins from Wenger or have him fired. For those that revere Wenger and say the Board are at fault for not pulling the trigger, it just seems a little hypocritical because most people with that view have only just come to the conclusion that Wenger needs to go recently. Maybe it’s taken longer for Board to see that Wenger’s time has come and especially if we have members that seem disconnected from fan sentiment and under the impression that everyone loves him. It makes no sense for sites last Arseblog or others that blame the Board to tell protesters to shut up about Wenger when it’s clear that the Board are the ones oblivious to his flaws. Protests against Ivan and Stan won’t change anything. It’s an unclear message. We don’t need them to give Wenger more money, we don’t need them to tell Wenger to ‘try harder’, a change to the infrastructure would be great but we’ve already seen how quickly Jonker walked away….the message we need to send them is that Wenger has to go.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There are arguments that Gazidis once unshackled might be an effective chief executive once Wenger is gone, that remains to be seen.

If the next guy is just muddling along like Wenger and making Kroenke money, i don't believe Gazidis is going to have any more power to sanction or even fire the new guy than he has with Wenger.

So that to degree i'm not sure Gazidis not taking the board line is really of much relevance. I hope i'm wrong but whilst Kroenke is involved with the club we are in the same boat and we are dependent on the manager themselves admitting that it's not working.

But don't get me wrong we won't know for sure until Wenger is gone, and to that end that has to be the no1 priority

[Özim]

Are fans different? Why? He didn't celebrate wildly and pretty much every football manager celebrates pretty much every goal to some degree or other. He hardly ran along the touchline and started crowd surfing.

Yes they are, he's not a fan at all, hence the reason he really doesn't understand their concerns at all and comes out with things like not being able to judge based on a couple weeks etc etc

He's doing his job and getting job satisfaction he's not a fan or anything of the sort, a fan wouldn't settle for 4th and be proud of it every season.


That is impossible to quantify but he's certainly one of the most important figures in our modern history.

He's played his part I don't deny that, but he's also played his part in what we are today, which IMO isn't a much of a football club anymore, we're a business if anything, so that's part of his legacy as well, you can't just ignore the larger part of his career with us.


Literally no-one has said that.

It's been alluded, Wenger this, Wenger that, Wenger is so great, we have so much to thank him for. I differ in my opinion, it's a two way street, he's done some great things we should be very happy about, he's also done some bad things we shouldn't...but more importantly he should thank us because he's got a lot out of the relationship with the club and don't just mean financially.

[Özim]

When I'm not at work i will trawl through the archives and present to you that those were in fact exactly your words.

As for the Sutton thing, he hardly jumped from his seat, he smiled and gave a small fist pump....the same any manager would do in any circumstance.

Do you think anyone has enjoyed watching us more often than not the last few years, most of us for years have wanted Wenger to go...what we don't do is delight in it when we lose.....we all have known for some time he isn't capable of pushing forward but we want to be proved wrong....you seemingly don't.

Fair enough, personally thought considering it was against a non league team with part timers it was hardly anything to be thrilled about, but hey ho.

With all due respect, this is nonsense, you want us to win and him to go? That will absolutely never happen, be realistic...the only way he will go and things will change is if things are going wrong. I want change and that change will only happen if things aren't working, the guy is as good as superglued to the marble halls of this club.

[AFC Leveller]

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16997678_696875407184724_1634646789712296570_n.jpg ?oh=36c54278fdd92c69ff30144c0da13482&oe=596AA75A

[Özim]

He actually stood up, smiled slightly, clapped 4 times and gave a very small fist pump for the first goal. Second goal he was already standing up, he clapped a few times, very small fist pump and that was that. Job done.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdaByjtjoqk

Neither goal was celebrated like we'd "just won the Champions League" (which is how Zim described it).

I was obviously being OTT when I said that, why do you insist on taking everything I say so literally? That's about as animated as Wenger gets on the sidelines so my point stands.

[Özim]

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16997678_696875407184724_1634646789712296570_n.jpg ?oh=36c54278fdd92c69ff30144c0da13482&oe=596AA75A

:lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Fair enough, personally thought considering it was against a non league team with part timers it was hardly anything to be thrilled about, but hey ho.

With all due respect, this is nonsense, you want us to win and him to go? That will absolutely never happen, be realistic...the only way he will go and things will change is if things are going wrong. I want change and that change will only happen if things aren't working, the guy is as good as superglued to the marble halls of this club.

I want him gone BECAUSE the results are not coming, no other reason. I want him gone because things aren't working, if things were working if the results were coming i would want him to stay.

For example When he signed a new contract in 2014 i knew he'd be here until 2017, so what's the alternative to hoping for the best?

[Özim]

I want him gone BECAUSE the results are not coming, no other reason. I want him gone because things aren't working, if things were working if the results were coming i would want him to stay.

For example When he signed a new contract in 2014 i knew he'd be here until 2017, so what's the alternative to hoping for the best?

I want him gone because they haven't worked for 10+ years, we never compete for the top prizes and see the same failings every season, we're poor in the transfer market, our medical team is hopeless and our youth team average, on top of that our football is very boring.

It depends what you deem to be working, the above and qualifying for the CL and winning an FA cup is not "working" for me, competing for the top prizes, unpredictability, excitement, a positibe transfer policy and flexibility is.

Managers don't always stay for their contracts, look at Ranieri.....if think don't work they more often than not get the sack, just because he says he's stating doesn't mean it has to be the case. As for hoping, there is no hope, that's part of the problem.

[selassie]

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16997678_696875407184724_1634646789712296570_n.jpg ?oh=36c54278fdd92c69ff30144c0da13482&oe=596AA75A

:haha: This one needs to be stickied! Pure GOLD :haha:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I want him gone because they haven't worked for 10+ years, we never compete for the top prizes and see the same failings every season, we're poor in the transfer market, our medical team is hopeless and our youth team average, on top of that our football is very boring.

It depends what you deem to be working, the above and qualifying for the CL and winning an FA cup is not "working" for me, competing for the top prizes, unpredictability, excitement, a positibe transfer policy and flexibility is.

Managers don't always stay for their contracts, look at Ranieri.....if think don't work they more often than not get the sack, just because he says he's stating doesn't mean it has to be the case. As for hoping, there is no hope, that's part of the problem.

I wanted him to go in 2011 but i knew it was unlikely i wanted him to go in 2014 but he signed a new contract.....we know that the board won't ever sack him, if you don't know that by now you are living in denial and we know he won't ever leave before the end of his contract. So you can enjoy it when we do play well and win, and you can hope that something changes despite the evidence to the contrary....or you can delight in every defeat.

[Power n Glory]

There are arguments that Gazidis once unshackled might be an effective chief executive once Wenger is gone, that remains to be seen.

If the next guy is just muddling along like Wenger and making Kroenke money, i don't believe Gazidis is going to have any more power to sanction or even fire the new guy than he has with Wenger.

So that to degree i'm not sure Gazidis not taking the board line is really of much relevance. I hope i'm wrong but whilst Kroenke is involved with the club we are in the same boat and we are dependent on the manager themselves admitting that it's not working.

But don't get me wrong we won't know for sure until Wenger is gone, and to that end that has to be the no1 priority

I'm not implying Gazidis will have more power when Wenger leaves. He may, he may not but that's not why I posted the above. It's relevant. It's just my explanation on how and why the focus and criticism is on Wenger. You only have to check GW before the new sponsorship deals. NQ being a case study. :lol: He was firmly against Wenger being hounded out when we were debating the issue some years back. But as the years have gone on, now look. That's not to say the structure of the club isn't a worry but when you're getting thrashed like last night, it's hard to look past the manager and blame the Board and especially if that Bayern team cost less to build than ours.

Sites like Arseblog need to find the courage to say Wenger has to go. Stop skirting around the issue by trying to deflect the attention away from our management issues. Seems a bit spineless to not direct the attention towards Wenger and talk about the Board needing to change things. People are asking for the same thing....most people....but some are being direct where others are go about it the long way because it's hard to focus on Wenger.

[Özim]

I wanted him to go in 2011 but i knew it was unlikely i wanted him to go in 2014 but he signed a new contract.....we know that the board won't ever sack him, if you don't know that by now you are living in denial and we know he won't ever leave before the end of his contract. So you can enjoy it when we do play well and win, and you can hope that something changes despite the evidence to the contrary....or you can delight in every defeat.

That maybe true, but if the fan sit there all happy and think the same way it there is definitely no chance, if the fans put pressure and start staying away...then you never know.

One things for sure, sitting there accepting the fact he's not going and turning up every game staying quiet won't do anything.

Where's the delight, delight in winning the odd match and being 2nd best every year then getting knocked out in the last 16 often via a thumping every single season, getting beaten by all the top sides regularly in the same manner, the same collapses, the same problems with transfers, the same problems with injuries, the same tactics, the same style of play.....none of that is delight for me, just don't enjoy games anymore, even when we win, it's meaningless because it's a win leading to nothing and most of the time it's not even a good performance, it's a scraped win, it always like this, it's not even as if it could be different....it can't, we know that.

[Power n Glory]

I wanted him to go in 2011 but i knew it was unlikely i wanted him to go in 2014 but he signed a new contract.....we know that the board won't ever sack him, if you don't know that by now you are living in denial and we know he won't ever leave before the end of his contract. So you can enjoy it when we do play well and win, and you can hope that something changes despite the evidence to the contrary....or you can delight in every defeat.

That’s a prime example of the attitude I’m talking about. You know the Board won’t sack him, you know Wenger will sign another deal if the fans stay quiet, but yet chastise the fans that aren’t afraid to say his time is up. (Not you in particular).

This is why we’re stuck in this loop.

[selassie]

In 2009 Bayern went out to Barca 5-1 on Aggregate, bear in mind this was probably the best Barca side in history. This is what Klinsmann and Beckenbauer said after going out to Barca.




Klinsmann

“From my point of view, the match was a great disappointment,” he told uefa.com after the game.

“It is difficult to explain. The key was to fight for every ball but two goals early in the game did a lot of damage and we did not fight hard enough.

“We need to overcome the criticism. It is a very hard defeat and difficult to digest.”

But the former German international striker also credited and heaped praise on Bayern's opponents.

“Barcelona played very well and showed our limitations. It is quite possible that we have just played against the future champions of Europe,” he said. “[Lionel] Messi is a great player and it’s a pleasure to see him playing.

“We want to be among the four best teams in Europe but we have a lot of improving to do. It is very difficult to compensate for the absences of important players like Lucio, [Daniel] van Buyten and [Philipp] Lahm.

“Now, we must concentrate on the fight for the Bundesliga title and ensure we are in the Champions League again next season.”




Beckenbauer

“What I saw in the first half was without a doubt the worst football Bayern have played in their entire history,” he said after the match.

“It was an exhibition. Almost a humiliation. Barcelona gave us a lesson in football.”

Die Roten chairman Karl-Heinze Rummenigge, meanwhile, refused to comment on the future of under-fire coach Jurgen Klinsmann but instead rallied his side to bounce back on the domestic front.

“We have no chance in the Champions League now, that is obvious,” he boomed.

We went out 10-2 on aggregrate to Bayern, this is what Wenger said....




Wenger on the defeat…

I felt that we produced a performance with the spirit and the pride that we wanted. After that the story finishes badly. Personally, I would say that we really put Bayern under pressure and that we were really unlucky tonight because it was 100 per cent a penalty in the first half after the foul on Walcott. I checked it on television. In the second half, the referee killed the game. After that, it was very difficult but the referee was very, very powerful for Bayern tonight. At that moment in the game, not only was it not a penalty, but Lewandowski was offside. On top of that, he gave us a red card and that killed us completely. Overall I must say that Bayern are a good side, but tonight they can also say thank you to the decisions of the referee in the second half.

Wenger on how he feels…

It leaves me very angry, very frustrated and, because we are in a difficult period, it hurts even more. It’s absolutely unexplainable and scandalous. You look at what really happened, and the guy behind the line gives the penalty and the red card when the referee had given a yellow. Okay we have to take it on the chin and I have to stand up for it, and I will take a lot of criticism, but it doesn’t change my mind. We have to deal with these kinds of situations in this game but that doesn’t make them right.

Wenger on whether the players have let him down…

No, I feel the referee has let us down.

Wenger on the lack of leadership shown after Koscielny’s dismissal…

It’s difficult when you have to go forward and score goals. You have a deficit of four goals and you’re down to 10 men. If you go forward you can be caught on the counter-attack but if you don’t go forward then people will say, ‘Why did you not at least try to score goals?’ so it’s a difficult situation. It’s an impossible situation.






Wenger on whether this is his most disappointing European night…

I don’t think so because we knew before the game that it would be difficult to qualify after the first leg. We wanted to at least go home and feel we dealt with the situation with pride and commitment. We did that. The fact that the end result will not highlight the quality of our performance is very disappointing.

Wenger on why Arsenal cannot compete with Bayern…

I think we can compete with Bayern Munich and we have shown that tonight in the first half. I believe the second half was a very difficult situation for us. Bayern are a good team and they do what they want in Germany, which we cannot do in England. Nobody can compete with them, they take the players they want and they are a bit lonely on the market. That’s not the case in England.

Wenger on what needs to change at Arsenal…

What needs to change at this club? What do you mean by that? I think this club is in great shape but we’re just going through a very difficult situation at the moment. What needs to change is the result in the next game.

Wenger on whether his players gave everything tonight…

It was difficult in the final 20 minutes because you have no hope of qualifying anymore. Bayern brought fresh players on and it was of course very difficult.



Compare and contrast, Bayern accepted they needed to buck their ideas up and improve and they did so by reaching CL finals and winning CL in between that period of 2009 and now.

Wenger on the other hand is in complete denial at the task at hand...he doesn't even think anything is wrong.....

[Niall_Quinn]

The board will never sack him, but they might sit down with him and ask him to leave of his own free will. But they'll only do that if the fans turn the heat right up. Greedy people who have a good thing going will keep everything unchanged if they can. Wenger won't change either so only the fans can create the conditions for change.

You'd almost think Wenger worked the last 20 years for free, to hear some fans going on. How comes in this modern version of the game the fans are owed nothing and yet we are supposed to owe undying loyalty to one man? We don't owe him anything, he's paid in full.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That’s a prime example of the attitude I’m talking about. You know the Board won’t sack him, you know Wenger will sign another deal if the fans stay quiet, but yet chastise the fans that aren’t afraid to say his time is up. (Not you in particular).

This is why we’re stuck in this loop.

Well no not me in particular, as i have never said there is anything wrong with fans saying his time is up. I have said it myself often enough
I agree with Arseblog that it's bad that it's become actually beholden on fans like DT to do the dirty work and roll their sleeves up

However you only need listen to what DT himself says, he takes no pleasure in being right and hopes to be proved wrong

Zim doesn't

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The board will never sack him, but they might sit down with him and ask him to leave of his own free will. But they'll only do that if the fans turn the heat right up. Greedy people who have a good thing going will keep everything unchanged if they can. Wenger won't change either so only the fans can create the conditions for change.

You'd almost think Wenger worked the last 20 years for free, to hear some fans going on. How comes in this modern version of the game the fans are owed nothing and yet we are supposed to owe undying loyalty to one man? We don't owe him anything, he's paid in full.

A very true statement, however I fear in the case of almost everyone on this board you are preaching to the converted

[Letters]

I was obviously being OTT when I said that, why do you insist on taking everything I say so literally? That's about as animated as Wenger gets on the sidelines so my point stands.

Your point was limping from the start and fell over in a heap. Your post implied he over-reacted in his celebrations, they were restrained and muted.
Obviously in some regards there are differences between fan and manager but when it comes to celebrating there is much in common. I'm sure the fans will have celebrated the goals, I doubt any of them went overboard. Nor did Wenger.

[Özim]

Zim doesn't

No I'm just smart enough to realise I'm not going to be proved wrong, 10+ years is proof of that, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded tbh. He's had his chance to proce people wrong, he couldn't do it, in any other club he would have been gone years ago.

[Niall_Quinn]

A very true statement, however I fear in the case of almost everyone on this board you are preaching to the converted

I have a feeling this board is read a little further afield than we imagine. In fact, if I had the time to sit down a do a bit of collation, I could prove it.

[Özim]

Your point was limping from the start and fell over in a heap. Your post implied he over-reacted in his celebrations, they were restrained and muted.
Obviously in some regards there are differences between fan and manager but when it comes to celebrating there is much in common. I'm sure the fans will have celebrated the goals, I doubt any of them went overboard. Nor did Wenger.

He did overeact IMO, it's a bunch of part timers, not even worth standing up for, that's about as animated as you ever see Wenger, I wouldn't say they were restrained and muted by Wenger standards.

There's a big difference between a fan and a manager like Wenger, managers don't celebrate like fans, well they do but very rarely.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No I'm just smart enough to realise I'm not going to be proved wrong, 10+ years is proof of that, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded tbh. He's had his chance to proce people wrong, he couldn't do it, in any other club he would have been gone years ago.

But again, there isn't anything special about you. No-one who is skeptical about the manager believes deep down that he will prove us wrong.

What i don't accept and you haven't come close to justifying is taking pleasure from us losing, fine be angry, fine use it as justification to say this guy has got to go.....but enjoyment?

If you honestly believe that before now that there would have ever been a majority consensus against Wenger you are the one who is deluded, the way fans look at it is that as of 2014 he had significantly more money to spend....I didn't think it would make a difference but in some ways i can actually see the merit of the argument where he deserved a chance to see what he could do with greater spending, and the end result is no difference.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I have a feeling this board is read a little further afield than we imagine. In fact, if I had the time to sit down a do a bit of collation, I could prove it.

You think people on this board are closet wenger apologists?

Five years ago there was a divergence of opinion, as of the last year.....it's a total consensus he's got to go.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He did overeact IMO, it's a bunch of part timers, not even worth standing up for, that's about as animated as you ever see Wenger, I wouldn't say they were restrained and muted by Wenger standards.

There's a big difference between a fan and a manager like Wenger, managers don't celebrate like fans, well they do but very rarely.

And this is why i don't take you seriously, you make a silly point and you double down on it.

He's clearly celebrated far more vigurously than that against bigger opposition. The only manager who doesn't celebrate his side scoring because he thinks the side are beneath him celebrating is Mourinho.

You look at how animated Conte is, i saw him jumping around when Chelsea scored against Peterborough.

There's plenty of things to be legitimately annoyed with Wenger about, this is not one of them.

[selassie]

With that sort of mentality coming from the boss, how are we to go about fixing an issue? It’s something that was touched on yesterday from IBK (aka Subs – GW Legend :bow: )thread. I have no idea how we change the culture of the this club. It’s not going to come from the odd player that plays for pride and it won’t come from the Board. The only feasible solution I can see is a change of manager.

Hargreaves was arguing with Rio last night that Wenger needed help the Board need to take the heat off him. I’ve seen a similar argument on Arseblog, from Moh on Arsenal Fan TV and on here at times. How can anyone help someone that is so entrenched in their own ways that they won’t accept help or a different approach? We don’t have a Board that aren’t receptive to new ideas from Wenger. I don’t think they’d turn him away if he accepted he needed to shake up his coaching staff or more money for better players. Also, we don’t have a Board that won’t impose ideas on Wenger because I guess they respect his work and hold him in high regards. I see what fans like Moh and Arseblog say about Wenger and how they revere and I suspect that’s the attitude that comes down from Board level. That’s why I can’t see them pulling the trigger unless things got so out of hand that their hand is forced. This is why we get the extreme posts and talk of us wanting to lose games or drop out of the Top 4 because fans can’t see no other way of the message getting through to the Board and shaking up the culture.

I get that people have reservations about the #WengerOut protests and would rather some focus on the Board, but Stan isn’t selling up any time soon unless attendance drops in a serious way. And it would take years for that to happen and we’d seriously damage the club in the process. It’s a mess. The only hope we have is a new manager that comes in and puts pressure on the Board to shake things up because it’s clear Wenger isn’t doing that at the moment. I was reading Arseblog today and I don’t get his position. Is he blaming the Board for not firing Wenger? Anyway…forgive the long winded rant.

Nah not a rant man, I feel you 100% and agree with a lot of your posts, we are deep in it right now, it's one big mess and the men responsible for it don't even think there is anything wrong.

The past few seasons have taken so much out of me I actually don't really care anymore, I am numb, the pain isn't there anymore when we get humiliated, I'm use to it, I've almost got to the point where I am shrugging my shoulders. I am just wanting change now, any kind of change will do for me even if it's temporary until we get a more stable solution, Wenger is a major problem, as are the board but Wenger needs to go right now. I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't even be adverse to Bould caretaking until the end of the season, it's gotten that bad for me now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Nah not a rant man, I feel you 100% and agree with a lot of your posts, we are deep in it right now, it's one big mess and the men responsible for it don't even think there is anything wrong.

The past few seasons have taken so much out of me I actually don't really care anymore, I am numb, the pain isn't there anymore when we get humiliated, I'm use to it, I've almost got to the point where I am shrugging my shoulders. I am just wanting change now, any kind of change will do for me even if it's temporary until we get a more stable solution, Wenger is a major problem, as are the board but Wenger needs to go right now. I'd go as far as to say I wouldn't even be adverse to Bould caretaking until the end of the season, it's gotten that bad for me now.

Let's be fair it couldn't get any worse if that happened

[selassie]

Let's be fair it couldn't get any worse if that happened

Yep, we've hit rock bottom Herb. I am genuinely not expecting anything out of the season now...in previous seasons I always felt we were capable of top 4 or winning the FA Cup after we got dumped out of CL....this season, I think we'll go out in the Semi-Finals of the FA Cup and will drop out of the top 4, I think we'll finish 6th...in fact I'd be shocked if the above didn't happen.

Honestly...it's probably what we need...

We need a wake up call regardless of who is going to be in charge next season.

[Marc Overmars]

In fairness to Zim, no one has been more maligned on this forum for their opinion.

I don't see it as revelling in our failure, more revelling in a lot of people now coming round to his way of thinking.

That's not to say he doesn't use any little opportunity to make something out of nothing. ;)

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In fairness to Zim, no one has been more maligned on this forum for their opinion.

I don't see it as revelling in our failure, more revelling in a lot of people now coming round to his way of thinking.

That's not to say he doesn't use any little opportunity to make something out of nothing. ;)

That's a reasonable assessment, this particular message board I joined in summer 2011 I was already pretty much Wenger out by that point, and I've never stated that I want him to stay.

Anyone could see from the outset that Wenger was tactically naive but he was a genius at unearthing talent. And what Zim fails to understand is that people stuck with him so long out of sentiment. There is no way you could have gone to a game in the unbeaten season or two years previously and not loved him. Grown men turned into over excited kids by something out of this world done by Thierry Henry, taking Man United's title away from them at Old Trafford.....these things were a long time ago and people wanted to believe deep down that could be repeated.
But I repeat you can know it's over without shitting on everything.

The games I've been able to enjoy are less and less but enjoy them I will, and I don't want to be told that I'm part of the problem for doing so.

[Power n Glory]

In fairness to Zim, no one has been more maligned on this forum for their opinion.

I don't see it as revelling in our failure, more revelling in a lot of people now coming round to his way of thinking.

That's not to say he doesn't use any little opportunity to make something out of nothing. ;)

True.

[Özim]

That's a reasonable assessment, this particular message board I joined in summer 2011 I was already pretty much Wenger out by that point, and I've never stated that I want him to stay.

Anyone could see from the outset that Wenger was tactically naive but he was a genius at unearthing talent. And what Zim fails to understand is that people stuck with him so long out of sentiment. There is no way you could have gone to a game in the unbeaten season or two years previously and not loved him. Grown men turned into over excited kids by something out of this world done by Thierry Henry, taking Man United's title away from them at Old Trafford.....these things were a long time ago and people wanted to believe deep down that could be repeated.
But I repeat you can know it's over without shitting on everything.

The games I've been able to enjoy are less and less but enjoy them I will, and I don't want to be told that I'm part of the problem for doing so.

He did unearth talent, but at a time noone else knew about French players he had the upperhand as he knew the French market very well, his ability to unearth top talents in the last 10+ years though has greatly diminished, I'd say he's no better than the next manager at doing so these days. Sentiment only goes so far IMO, since 2006 he's done very little IMO, the same failures have happened time and time again, the football has IMO been boring to watch on the whole and we've just since every season being a clone of the previous one, there's been way too much sentiment and he's had way more leeway than any other manager would have got at any other top club.

You enjoy them I don't, I find our games, repetitive and the boring is some of the dullest around IMO, there's no entertainment, very little excitement and when I do watch a match it's hard to stay awake.

IMO this club has a defeatist attitude, from top to bottom, it even runs through to some of the fans that take pride in being also rans.

[Özim]

You'd almost think Wenger worked the last 20 years for free, to hear some fans going on. How comes in this modern version of the game the fans are owed nothing and yet we are supposed to owe undying loyalty to one man? We don't owe him anything, he's paid in full.

Totally agree, for some reason we have to be eternally grateful to the man and remain loyal to him, he's done very well out of the club, a job getting paid a fortune, doing whatever he likes with no real pressure to deliver success, he owes a lot to the club and the fans because with it and then he'd probably still be managing some small team at some unknown level, he owes the fans for their loyalty, works both ways.

I don't really like the attitude we should be so grateful to him and the ascertion we were really nothing before he arrived, in reality he was an unknown before he arrived at Arsenal, in many ways he was very fortunate to get the job at such a big club.

Yes he did a great job in his first few years, delivering trophy after trophy with us playing great football and we should be proud of that and grateful to him for doing that, but he needs to be a bit more humble, the way he talks he built Arsenal up from being nothing, the truth is it's the other way round.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He did unearth talent, but at a time noone else knew about French players he had the upperhand as he knew the French market very well, his ability to unearth top talents in the last 10+ years though has greatly diminished, I'd say he's no better than the next manager at doing so these days. Sentiment only goes so far IMO, since 2006 he's done very little IMO, the same failures have happened time and time again, the football has IMO been boring to watch on the whole and we've just since every season being a clone of the previous one, there's been way too much sentiment and he's had way more leeway than any other manager would have got at any other top club.

You enjoy them I don't, I find our games, repetitive and the boring is some of the dullest around IMO, there's no entertainment, very little excitement and when I do watch a match it's hard to stay awake.

IMO this club has a defeatist attitude, from top to bottom, it even runs through to some of the fans that take pride in being also rans.

Sorry did I say I enjoyed many of the games, I said there were still games I did enjoy. This season unfortunately has been fewer than ever, I would say honestly there have been three games I've genuinely enjoyed watching - Chelsea at home, West Ham away and Southampton in the FA cup.

It was more than just tapping an unknown market he was able to see potential in people that had been overlooked, like with Vieira who was a sub at Milan or Henry who despite bursting into the scene with Monaco was flagging at Juventus as a luxury winger and Wenger turned him into the best striker in the world.

You can snub his achievements but name me any other manager of this club that won us three titles in seven seasons since before the Second World War.
I'm with you if you argue there isn't much to shout about since 2006, but you also cannot fault a board for keeping faith with him during a period of financial uncertainty where we were stable. If Liverpool had moved to a bigger stadium and a manager was getting top four whilst they are paying down the debt for almost a decade would they really have sacked him?.

The world doesn't run on sentiment. But I've already explained that it's clear we have only been spending substantially in the last three years and you can think it won't make any difference, but it was always obvious the fans as well as the board were going to see if greater spending made a difference.

Wenger was given the benefit of the doubt and given three seasons to see if some progress could be made, but there has been none and this is why the majority of the fan base have turned. You can argue why didn't the fans turned sooner, but to assume they would is the same level of naievity you attribute to others.

And as I say I think the quality of football only took a consistent nose dive in the last few years, games where the football was good more often than it wasn't.

Two seasons ago I went to watch Arsenal play on my brothers season ticket many times, and there were still games like when we took Liverpool apart at the Emirates and you can want change in management and still acknowledge that you've been thoroughly entertained.

The financial shackles have gone and we have nothing to show for it and that's why he's got to go. Was it obvious that a man so stubborn, so tactically lacking would not do remarkably better even with money? Yeah I'm not surprised how the last three years have gone. I think the failure to win the title in 2007/2008 for instance was a failure of mentality rather than a lack of finances.

[mastermind84]

Compare and contrast, Bayern accepted they needed to buck their ideas up and improve and they did so by reaching CL finals and winning CL in between that period of 2009 and now.

Wenger on the other hand is in complete denial at the task at hand...he doesn't even think anything is wrong.....

even better than that, Bayern made the CL final in 2010 but realized things werent going right. They changed their organizational structure when Heynkes took over and hired Guardiola after they won their last CL.


Meanwhile fans and the club are beholden to Wenger for what happened in 2004. It doesnt make sense.

[Power n Glory]

On a positive...Ox may have found his role in the squad. Central midfield looks to be his natural position. Really put in a performance.

https://twitter.com/EmanDaGoonn/status/839406190757044225

[selassie]

even better than that, Bayern made the CL final in 2010 but realized things werent going right. They changed their organizational structure when Heynkes took over and hired Guardiola after they won their last CL.


Meanwhile fans and the club are beholden to Wenger for what happened in 2004. It doesnt make sense.

All credit to Bayern, Football comes first, they pride themselves on winning and will not settle for second best.

Regarding some of our fans that are beholden to Wenger....I know it's ridiculous...but ultimately this is what happens when standards are allowed drop so far that taking part is now seen as some sort of success.

We have a Manager who not that long ago said that "Winning isn't everything".

We have an Owner who straight up said that "he doesn't care for trophies and the primary reason for him buying Arsenal wasn't for winning".

That's the reality of the situation...they don't care, they don't care one bit.

[Marc Overmars]

On a positive...Ox may have found his role in the squad. Central midfield looks to be his natural position. Really put in a performance.

https://twitter.com/EmanDaGoonn/status/839406190757044225

Shop window performances I reckon.

[Maestro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vusNSMM9QB4

[Letters]

No I'm just smart enough to realise I'm not going to be proved wrong
I've proved you wrong in this thread :lol:
I posted the video showing Wenger's very muted reactions to the goals. Yes, he reacted as would pretty much anyone but your hatred (and that really isn't too strong a word) of him robs you of any objectivity and you will never EVER change your opinion even when it's shown up to be nonsense.
There is plenty to criticise him about, you don't need to make up stuff.

You've also said in this thread he hasn't been doing a good job for over 10 years. So you'd have sacked him in what, 2006 or 2005? A year or two after The Invincibles? Really? Behave.

Let's stop all the revisionism. IMO you can split Wenger's time with us into 3 periods.

When he came he was remarkable, he revolutionised the club - arguably English football as a whole, other clubs soon followed suit with a flood of foreign players and managers and diet and fitness regimes. He took us to dizzy heights that no-one at Arsenal could have expected. Yes, yes, we won stuff before he came along but it was often awful football in my early memory of the club and, historically, success at Arsenal was pretty sporadic - read Fever Pitch.

Then the billionaires stuck their nose in just as we were doing the stadium move which restricted our finances. Was Wenger too frugal and cautious during that time? I think that is arguably true but, overall, I think he did pretty well to keep us relatively competitive.

Now he has the money to compete and he's even signed a few players who should enable us to but it's increasingly clear he's no longer able to deliver the biggest prizes. So he must go.

But don't proclaim yourself right as if you knew 10 years ago that he wasn't up to it and stop making up stupid reasons to have a go at him, there's plenty of real material to go on.

I don't like what we as a club have become either by the way - a big business - but IMO that is partly a reflection of our owners and partly a reflection of how football has gone in general. It's sad and I'm increasingly reluctant to engage with it but you can't blame Wenger for that one - that's the fault of people like Sky and UEFA who have made it all about saturation in the media and ever spiralling money.

[Maestro]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KbgA3u-7RI

[mastermind84]

On a positive...Ox may have found his role in the squad. Central midfield looks to be his natural position. Really put in a performance.

https://twitter.com/EmanDaGoonn/status/839406190757044225

i didnt see the match, but judging by yesterday's reaction and the SoTon FA cup match, he has found his home. He looks excellent in a 3 man midfield, and I read Xhaka and Ramsey looked good too.

Dont worry tho, Wenger will put Ox out wide againa dn go back to a 2 with Coquelin.

[mastermind84]

All credit to Bayern, Football comes first, they pride themselves on winning and will not settle for second best.

Regarding some of our fans that are beholden to Wenger....I know it's ridiculous...but ultimately this is what happens when standards are allowed drop so far that taking part is now seen as some sort of success.

We have a Manager who not that long ago said that "Winning isn't everything".

We have an Owner who straight up said that "he doesn't care for trophies and the primary reason for him buying Arsenal wasn't for winning".

That's the reality of the situation...they don't care, they don't care one bit.

I think a lot of fans think Arsenal are a smaller club than it actually is, the board plays off that.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Shop window performances I reckon.

Mark Ogden of ESPN (I have no idea who he is or if he is in any way reliable*) says he wants to leave.

A typical "Sources say" story though.

And now others papers are getting involved by saying Ozil wants out as well. Again.

*Ah it's the former Telegraph and Independent guy who used to/still covers United

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think a lot of fans think Arsenal are a smaller club than it actually is, the board plays off that.

In terms of spending power, i think people believe the club is much bigger than it is. Bayern, Barcelona, Real, Man City, Man United, PSG and Chelsea can easily outspend us and maintain a far higher wage bill.

[Özim]

In terms of spending power, i think people believe the club is much bigger than it is. Bayern, Barcelona, Real, Man City, Man United, PSG and Chelsea can easily outspend us and maintain a far higher wage bill.

Think Bayerns team cost less than ours though and yet they are so much better, it's not all about money, it's also about spending wisely.

[Niall_Quinn]

In terms of spending power, i think people believe the club is much bigger than it is. Bayern, Barcelona, Real, Man City, Man United, PSG and Chelsea can easily outspend us and maintain a far higher wage bill.

Arsenal is the biggest club in the world in terms of what it charges it's fans. They managed to get that bit working I see. If we still can't compete with the top clubs after restructuring the club so radically and being one of the biggest beneficiaries of the insane increase in TV revenues then people out to be getting sacked, don't you think?

[Marc Overmars]

Mark Ogden of ESPN (I have no idea who he is or if he is in any way reliable*) says he wants to leave.

A typical "Sources say" story though.

And now others papers are getting involved by saying Ozil wants out as well. Again.

*Ah it's the former Telegraph and Independent guy who used to/still covers United

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11065/10795181/alex-oxlade-chamberlain-wants-to-leave-arsenal-in-the-summer

His progression with us has been non-existent, 6 years on he's not much better than the day we signed him. I fear he has the potential to explode at another club though, with a manager who has confidence in him and most importantly a specific role for him in the team. I could see Klopp getting him under his wing, he's the kind of hard working player that would buy into his philosophy.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11065/10795181/alex-oxlade-chamberlain-wants-to-leave-arsenal-in-the-summer

His progression with us has been non-existent, 6 years on he's not much better than the day we signed him. I fear he has the potential to explode at another club though, with a manager who has confidence in him and most importantly a specific role for him in the team. I could see Klopp getting him under his wing, he's the kind of hard working player that would buy into his philosophy.

If Wenger gets a new deal and we don't a appoint a new manager, he'd be wise to move on. You only have to look as far as Walcott and Ramsey to see what happens when developed by Wenger in this era. Giving players the freedom to work to their strengths and not develop crucial skills required for a position hasn't worked. Stripping back Theo's game so he's only focused on off ball runs and striking is not the way to develop a modern day winger. He should have been learning how to defend and how to beat his man under Wenger. Ramsey should have learned about positional discipline and not been given a license to go goal hunting. But also, these players have to get to a point where they question their development. They're not kids and can easily see the areas they need to work on.

Ox has raw talent. I had no idea he was capable of being a central midfielder until recently. Has a good range of passes on him and with his dribbling ability, he's able to evade teams that press. It makes even less sense why Wenger had him out on the wing against Liverpool. But if Ox stays, I'm sure he won't learn how to correct his mistakes under Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

If Wenger was going to announce he's going it should have been and would have been last night, having had 24 hours to reflect on the latest embarrassment. I don't see any news. No statements, everyone still in the dark waiting on him to make his proclamation. The man who loves Arsenal holding the club to ransom as it falls apart around his ears. Right up until the end it appears who will refuse to do it any way except his way, regardless of whether his way is the right way or even works.

Martin Keown said in his piece in the Mail today, "But he wants to go out as a winner, as a champion. Football is his best friend. Maybe winning the FA Cup and finishing in the top four might achieve that."

Fine, looks like he's staying until the end of the season at least. Because he always sees out his contract, blah, blah. That's not what struck me about what Keown said though. Instead it was, "...as a champion ...and finishing in the top four might achieve that." It's subconscious now. Top 4 has been transformed into a trophy. You are a champion if you can win it.

[selassie]

In terms of spending power, i think people believe the club is much bigger than it is. Bayern, Barcelona, Real, Man City, Man United, PSG and Chelsea can easily outspend us and maintain a far higher wage bill.

Barca, Real, Man City, Man United and possibly PSG can outspend us, Chelsea can do too...but they are a lot more restrained in their spending these days....Hazard and Costa cost less than Ozil and Sanchez combined. Kante less than Xhaka, David Luiz less than Mustafi. Chelsea have bought extremely well over the past 3 or 4 years...we've bought badly.

Bayern aren't actually huge spenders...I would say we are at their level in terms of spending if we choose to spend....choose being the key word here. Bayern have also bought well, admittedly they do lack competition in the market from their domestic rivals.

Wage bill wise we are not that far behind Chelsea, Man United or Man City which is pretty incredible considering they all have multiple players on 200K per week..

The issue isn't about our spending power...it's about spending it wisely...that in my honest opinion has been a problem for quite a while now.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

[AFC Leveller]

Byaern's 11 the other day costs less than Arsenal's, which is saying something.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I keep reading this, though i haven't seen anything that confirms this

It doesn't sound right, can anyone provide evidence?

And even if so than it certainly is not the case when you compare the squad

[Power n Glory]

We conceded the title race to Leicester City! Why is anyone talking about spending power unless to further the point that Wenger is wasteful with money?

[GP]

Talking about spending is completely pointless when we have a manager who can't get the most out of the players he already has.

And comparing spend to Bayern is misleading anyway. They get to pick whoever they want from their own league in a way that we couldn't.

[Globalgunner]

I keep reading this, though i haven't seen anything that confirms this

It doesn't sound right, can anyone provide evidence?

And even if so than it certainly is not the case when you compare the squad

It appears you are into alternative facts. You dont like the available evidence so want another set.

Wenger wastes money, believe it. We have over 200m in the bank, believe that too. Last year our wage bill was £1.8m behind City. that is also a fact. Money is not our problem. Wenger spending it wastefully on unproven kids to buy their loyalty is the thing and buying players nobody has on their radar so he can prove he has an eye for talent . All this has brought us to where we are.

Are we still talking about money?

[Letters]

I hope people aren't claiming that Leicester have proven that spending power and success are not correlated.

[Globalgunner]

I hope people aren't claiming that Leicester have proven that spending power and success are not correlated.

Look at the French league. Monaco are leading PSG right now. Who is spending more?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We lost conceded the title race to Leicester City! Why is anyone talking about spending power unless to further the point that Wenger is wasteful with money?

Leicester was an outlier but of course it's proof that even with Money being an issue (and it is) that Wenger cannot succeed anyway

The correlation between money spent and prizes won/final league position is normally quite concurrent.

Therefore i do think fans have to manage their expectations somewhat because although we can buy two or three players a season in the 30 million bracket, we cannot do that of players in the 40-60 million bracket like Man City, Man United can do.

This doesn't mitigate for Wenger's failure and it's not even an attempt to, but you have to look at Spurs who have a decent squad and a decent manager but the likelihood of them winning the title is remote. The difference is they aren't routinely humiliated by bigger sides and they play decent football.

Now i think we can clearly surpass what Spurs do as we are a bigger club with greater spending power, but there are three clubs in England who will always be able to vastly outspend us so whatever we are battling against the odds.

[Letters]

Look at the French league. Monaco are leading PSG right now. Who is spending more?

My mum crossed the road the other day blindfolded and she's fine, ergo there is no correlation between crossing the road carefully and safety.
(She did the same thing the next day and got run over though).

Possible != Probable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Look at the French league. Monaco are leading PSG right now. Who is spending more?

And who won the league the previous four seasons

[Letters]

Leicester was an outlier but of course it's proof that even with Money being an issue (and it is) that Wenger cannot succeed anyway.
And this is why I've changed my position about him.
There were years when we couldn't compete financially with some teams, IMO Wenger did OK keeping us relatively competitive during that time.
But now the money is there, we should be competing with anyone. My expectations have changed, the performances haven't. The FA Cups were tantalising and showed some hope we could push on (I am not the only person who thought that on here, some of those now pretending they think Wenger has failed for 10 years also thought so).
But we haven't, so #WengerOut.
But, like you, I'm a bit weary of the revisionism going on.

[Globalgunner]

And who won the league the previous four seasons
With Wenger even with money, winning the league is impossible. That is the only issue. Do we compete, never. Leicester have a better chance of progressing to the last 8 than us, even with Shakespeare at the helm.

[Power n Glory]

I hope people aren't claiming that Leicester have proven that spending power and success are not correlated.

No, it proves you can't correlate spending power and success when looking at our failures.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think to be fair even when clubs have won due to being able to massively outspend us it's largely disconnected from our own performances

For example the all too predictable collapses in form and then runs in form when top 4 is becoming endangered, which speak to poor mentality rather than squad depth or quality.

If we were getting to April and ultimately falling short because the players had given it everything and just couldn't keep the pace with a side that just isn't dropping points than i would have bought the financial disparity being the ultimate factor, it's a factor but it's also been an easy excuse to hide Wenger's failings.

It wasn't just the fact that Leicester won the title despite not being a big spender, it won the title with a points tally that was a five year low for 1st place finishes....surpassing their points total was well within the ability of the squad we had.

Ultimately apart from three seasons from the last 12 when we have got 79 and 83 points twice, our points tally has been as low as mid sixties and plateaued at 75.

I think winning the title would have been an incredibly tough ask this season as Chelsea have accumulated 66 points from 81 they just aren't dropping points, but the problem is the capitulation.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

With Wenger even with money, winning the league is impossible. That is the only issue. Do we compete, never. Leicester have a better chance of progressing to the last 8 than us, even with Shakespeare at the helm.

Again this is the problem, any attempt to say money is clearly a massive determining factor is seen as a defence of Wenger it clearly isn't

[Letters]

No, it proves you can't correlate spending power and success when looking at our failures.

:good: Fair enough.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think my point is that even with Wenger gone we simply aren't going to go toe to toe with Chelsea or Man City or United every season, we just won't

Some seasons we will come close but ultimate their squad depth and quality will get them over the line, and some seasons we will struggle to make it into the champions league or even fail to qualify simply because of the spending of sides around us like Liverpool and Tottenham will increase.

I would hope the difference is, is the end to the embarrassing defeats the 8-2's, the 6-0's etc, the 10-2 agg drubbings.

That when we do qualify for the champions league we make it count and get as far as possible

That if the likes of chelsea, city or united have off seasons we are able to take advantage (because 90% of the time the title will be shared out between those three clubs)

We aren't even with a top manager going to start winning multiple titles or winning the champions league that seems unrealistic, the champions league seems closed off between bayern, real madrid and barcelona and arguably even bayern are shut out of that equation.

It doesn't in anyway excuse Wenger, but football has been totally poisoned by money

[Marc Overmars]

I think my point is that even with Wenger gone we simply aren't going to go toe to toe with Chelsea or Man City or United every season, we just won't

Some seasons we will come close but ultimate their squad depth and quality will get them over the line, and some seasons we will struggle to make it into the champions league or even fail to qualify simply because of the spending of sides around us like Liverpool and Tottenham will increase.

I would hope the difference is, is the end to the embarrassing defeats the 8-2's, the 6-0's etc, the 10-2 agg drubbings.

That when we do qualify for the champions league we make it count and get as far as possible

That if the likes of chelsea, city or united have off seasons we are able to take advantage (because 90% of the time the title will be shared out between those three clubs)

I think that sums it up well.

To not even be in a position to compete when the opportunity arises is what has ultimately exposed Wenger. Money might have been an issue 5-10 years ago but the flaws and traits we had then are still prevalent now. It was only ever an excuse to mask his own failings.

[Globalgunner]

Again this is the problem, any attempt to say money is clearly a massive determining factor is seen as a defence of Wenger it clearly isn't

You have to look at this logically. If we are spending annually 90-95% of what our opponents are spending.....and accruing money in the bank. You can hardly claim poverty. When the Spuds are spending 65% of what we spend to more or less keep pace with us, then all arguments about money and success should be relegated as secondary. Overall of course buying, better, more expensive players gives a better chance of positive placings, but it offers no guarantee. Chelsea outspent us the season Leiceter won the league and they finished 8th or something. We would like to see Arsenal do a Leicester sometime in our lifetime, but honestly can you see that ever happening if Wenger stays

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

. We would like to see Arsenal do a Leicester sometime in our lifetime, but honestly can you see that ever happening if Wenger stays

It's funny how you quote my post but clearly don't read it. I think Wenger has to go obviously.....yes you only have to look at the wage bill difference between Arsenal and Man United/Man City and it's pretty much on par.,

But these three clubs have been able to regularly spend money on top quality, the tv money hasn't helped us it's made it more difficult because it's not feasible for us to spend 60million on a player because of the wages as well, where as these three clubs don't need to worry about being self-sustaining (well Man United do but they have that obscene Addidas deal)

We just won't be able to bring in a Griezmann or a Pogba or a Aubemeyang that's not feasible, those other three clubs can whether they qualify for the champions league or not.....that's not a defence of Wenger. It's an acceptance that 90% of the time the title will be divied up between these clubs that's just a sad fact and it's a fact that makes me fed up of football.

But yes of course in order to profit in the remaining 10% of the time we need a better manager than Wenger of course.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think my point is that even with Wenger gone we simply aren't going to go toe to toe with Chelsea or Man City or United every season, we just won't

Some seasons we will come close but ultimate their squad depth and quality will get them over the line, and some seasons we will struggle to make it into the champions league or even fail to qualify simply because of the spending of sides around us like Liverpool and Tottenham will increase.

I would hope the difference is, is the end to the embarrassing defeats the 8-2's, the 6-0's etc, the 10-2 agg drubbings.

That when we do qualify for the champions league we make it count and get as far as possible

That if the likes of chelsea, city or united have off seasons we are able to take advantage (because 90% of the time the title will be shared out between those three clubs)

We aren't even with a top manager going to start winning multiple titles or winning the champions league that seems unrealistic, the champions league seems closed off between bayern, real madrid and barcelona and arguably even bayern are shut out of that equation.

It doesn't in anyway excuse Wenger, but football has been totally poisoned by money

I don't think the chavs are that great. They are solid, better than the rest who are themselves pretty ordinary. Especially the gypos. For the money poured into them they are horribly ordinary, although Guardiola will sort that out over time. Liverpool? Utd? Hot and cold. The real worry is the spuds. That bastard Poch is doing a great job, when is he going to be poached? The spuds are starting to show you can properly compete despite the budget deficit. The money is a big factor. But a smart manager, dedicated players, a bit of ambition and it goes a long way to making up the gap. I don't think the spuds are there yet, but I don't see why we shouldn't be able to land a half decent manager and start getting rid of the handicaps insisted on by Wenger for so long. I expect to see a very big bump for the better when the new manager comes in. It would be very strange were that not the case given Wenger's crippling limitations. There is a hell of a lot of potential in our squad that Wenger has no clue how to unlock. And, as you say, correct some of the outright ridiculous shit such as the traditional hammerings and the lack of attention to the basics of the game and I see us improving on many fronts. We'd have to bring in a real idiot to go backwards. Which is why Wenger should be nowhere near the decision making process. Then again, who does that leave? Gazidis? Dear me.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's funny how you quote my post but clearly don't read it. I think Wenger has to go obviously.....yes you only have to look at the wage bill difference between Arsenal and Man United/Man City and it's pretty much on par.,

But these three clubs have been able to regularly spend money on top quality, the tv money hasn't helped us it's made it more difficult because it's not feasible for us to spend 60million on a player because of the wages as well, where as these three clubs don't need to worry about being self-sustaining (well Man United do but they have that obscene Addidas deal)

We just won't be able to bring in a Griezmann or a Pogba or a Aubemeyang that's not feasible, those other three clubs can whether they qualify for the champions league or not.....that's not a defence of Wenger. It's an acceptance that 90% of the time the title will be divied up between these clubs that's just a sad fact and it's a fact that makes me fed up of football.

But yes of course in order to profit in the remaining 10% of the time we need a better manager than Wenger of course.

What are the wages attached to the 90 mill of signings last window? Pretty high I'll bet considering we seem to pay way too much to second tier players and then refuse to spend what is needed to retain real stars. I think we certainly could have spent 60 mill plus the wages. The trouble is, Wenger has no strategy. What's wrong with one premium signing a season? Build the results as the team slowly improves and with the results comes the money to fund the next round. Much better than our current scattergun approach. We're not even playing Peres. Chambers has gone missing. Wilshere's string of big pay rises came to nothing, we kept Diaby on 70k for how long? Wenger just isn't very good in the transfer market.

[fakeyank]

I just want to go into big games not knowing what the outcome is, having my palms sweaty before the game because it could go either way. I am sick of knowing almost with 100% certainty how our games against the big guys are going to be like. There have been a few outliers like the win against Barcelona at home, against City away and Chelsea this season which does make me sit up and take notice but you know that these victories are more anomalies than the norm.

Frankly, I just want to get excited about the club again.

[Globalgunner]

It's funny how you quote my post but clearly don't read it. I think Wenger has to go obviously.....yes you only have to look at the wage bill difference between Arsenal and Man United/Man City and it's pretty much on par.,

But these three clubs have been able to regularly spend money on top quality, the tv money hasn't helped us it's made it more difficult because it's not feasible for us to spend 60million on a player because of the wages as well, where as these three clubs don't need to worry about being self-sustaining (well Man United do but they have that obscene Addidas deal)

We just won't be able to bring in a Griezmann or a Pogba or a Aubemeyang that's not feasible, those other three clubs can whether they qualify for the champions league or not.....that's not a defence of Wenger. It's an acceptance that 90% of the time the title will be divied up between these clubs that's just a sad fact and it's a fact that makes me fed up of football.

But yes of course in order to profit in the remaining 10% of the time we need a better manager than Wenger of course.

We could buy the players you mention with the cash in the bank,but that is another issue. the real issue, is they would never come. After our player debacles going back to Fabregas. No ambitious players will ever come. We have become a cautionary tale.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think the chavs are that great. They are solid, better than the rest who are themselves pretty ordinary. Especially the gypos. For the money poured into them they are horribly ordinary, although Guardiola will sort that out over time. Liverpool? Utd? Hot and cold. The real worry is the spuds. That bastard Poch is doing a great job, when is he going to be poached? The spuds are starting to show you can properly compete despite the budget deficit. The money is a big factor. But a smart manager, dedicated players, a bit of ambition and it goes a long way to making up the gap. I don't think the spuds are there yet, but I don't see why we shouldn't be able to land a half decent manager and start getting rid of the handicaps insisted on by Wenger for so long. I expect to see a very big bump for the better when the new manager comes in. It would be very strange were that not the case given Wenger's crippling limitations. There is a hell of a lot of potential in our squad that Wenger has no clue how to unlock. And, as you say, correct some of the outright ridiculous shit such as the traditional hammerings and the lack of attention to the basics of the game and I see us improving on many fronts. We'd have to bring in a real idiot to go backwards. Which is why Wenger should be nowhere near the decision making process. Then again, who does that leave? Gazidis? Dear me.

Again yes it will make a difference, i just don't think it will be the epoch making difference we are all expecting

Yes a top manager will make us better to watch, we won't choke against top sides etc. But to dislodge the fact that 90% of the time the title will be won by united, chelsea and city?.....i don't see it.

Chelsea aren't that great, but they have dropped 15 points this season they win when they need to and that is a combination of a good manager and the fruits of sustained spending.

United and City will get where they need to be because the amount of money they have spunked into their squads, and i say when they need to they will get the cheque book out and get the type of players that are beyond us to sign.

[Power n Glory]

I think my point is that even with Wenger gone we simply aren't going to go toe to toe with Chelsea or Man City or United every season, we just won't

Some seasons we will come close but ultimate their squad depth and quality will get them over the line, and some seasons we will struggle to make it into the champions league or even fail to qualify simply because of the spending of sides around us like Liverpool and Tottenham will increase.

I would hope the difference is, is the end to the embarrassing defeats the 8-2's, the 6-0's etc, the 10-2 agg drubbings.

That when we do qualify for the champions league we make it count and get as far as possible

That if the likes of chelsea, city or united have off seasons we are able to take advantage (because 90% of the time the title will be shared out between those three clubs)

We aren't even with a top manager going to start winning multiple titles or winning the champions league that seems unrealistic, the champions league seems closed off between bayern, real madrid and barcelona and arguably even bayern are shut out of that equation.

It doesn't in anyway excuse Wenger, but football has been totally poisoned by money

Why are you even talking about spending power or trying to manage fan expectations? Selassie was comparing Wenger’s response to Bayern’s when they were on the end of a beating to Barca and continued the discussion with Mastermind on how the embarrassment was their wake up call. Manager to infrastructure was changed to get them where they are now. This isn’t a discussion about money and the above post just backs up what Mastermind just said.


I think a lot of fans think Arsenal are a smaller club than it actually is, the board plays off that.

There has to be shift in fan mentality to go along with that. The defeatist attitude has to go. If we don’t demand more from the manager and board, they won’t feel any need to do the same with the manager and players. This goes way beyond finances.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We could buy the players you mention with the cash in the bank,but that is another issue. the real issue, is they would never come. After our player debacles going back to Fabregas. No ambitious players will ever come. We have become a cautionary tale.

We have cash in reserve and we could splash out once or twice (but we wouldn't be able to sign them because of the wage demands), chelsea, city and united can sign players like that season in and season out.

That will be the case when Wenger is gone.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why are you even talking about spending power or trying to manage fan expectations? Selassie was comparing Wenger’s response to Bayern’s when they were on the end of a beating to Barca and continued the discussion with Mastermind on how the embarrassment was their wake up call. Manager to infrastructure was changed to get them where they are now. This isn’t a discussion about money and the above post just backs up what Mastermind just said.



There has to be shift in fan mentality to go along with that. The defeatist attitude has to go. If we don’t demand more from the manager and board, they won’t feel any need to do the same with the manager and players. This goes way beyond finances.

We had this discussion six weeks ago, but just to remind you and so you don't think it's coming out of the blue. I made it abundantly clear that you asking me why I am posting on a subject would elicit the response of Go fuck yourself.

So Go fuck yourself.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What are the wages attached to the 90 mill of signings last window? Pretty high I'll bet considering we seem to pay way too much to second tier players and then refuse to spend what is needed to retain real stars. I think we certainly could have spent 60 mill plus the wages. The trouble is, Wenger has no strategy. What's wrong with one premium signing a season? Build the results as the team slowly improves and with the results comes the money to fund the next round. Much better than our current scattergun approach. We're not even playing Peres. Chambers has gone missing. Wilshere's string of big pay rises came to nothing, we kept Diaby on 70k for how long? Wenger just isn't very good in the transfer market.

It's the one off wages, if you sign a player of 60 million + that player then wants wages of 250-300k a week and then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

[Power n Glory]

We had this discussion six weeks ago, but just to remind you and so you don't think it's coming out of the blue. I made it abundantly clear that you asking me why I am posting on a subject would elicit the response of Go fuck yourself.

So Go fuck yourself.

Well fuck you too :lol: But let me rephrase that. Why is spending power relevant when the discussion stems from the shift in mentality it took for Bayern to get to where they are. That's all that's relevant here. Bayern haven't seen a major shift to their finances. Nothing like what we've seen with our new sponsorship money one season and then the new TV rights money after. The money conversation is irrelevant because it takes a shift in mentality. So far, it looks like humiliation hasn't affected our Board or manager so even if we were the richest club in the world, and not just one of the richest, it wouldn't make a difference unless we had something internally clicked.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It was in response to the post you quoted about people thinking the club is a lot smaller than it is and i mentioned that on the contrary because of the spending power some of the expectations of the club are unrealistic

To be fair i have also added as a massive caveat countless times by saying that Leicester especially was proof that even when Money isn't a factor Wenger fails

Yes i think we can be doing a hell of a lot better, i hate the humiliations etc

But I do think there are unrealistic expectations, 90% of the league titles in the next ten years will be won by Chelsea, United and City just like they were in the last ten years, the failure of Wenger is not even to make a fist at fighting against that and not taking the chance when these clubs have an off season.

And to fail in the same way, season in, season out

[Niall_Quinn]

It's the one off wages, if you sign a player of 60 million + that player then wants wages of 250-300k a week and then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

Is there any evidence to support that theory? Ozil is on 200+ supposedly. You could say that has led to Alexis wanting similar, but of course he's our star player and he can get that anywhere (a lot more in fact). Who else can though? You have to be able to back up your claims with a bit of talent and the certainty somebody else out there wants to pay you what you are asking. Hasn't our problem been we couldn't get rid of the dross we were overpaying?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Is there any evidence to support that theory? Ozil is on 200+ supposedly. You could say that has led to Alexis wanting similar, but of course he's our star player and he can get that anywhere (a lot more in fact). Who else can though? You have to be able to back up your claims with a bit of talent and the certainty somebody else out there wants to pay you what you are asking. Hasn't our problem been we couldn't get rid of the dross we were overpaying?

Ozil is on 160k

So you don't think that if we signed Sanchez up to a new deal for say 250k, and then we sign Aubemeyang for 60-70million....he is going to demand 300k a week to correspond to the money we have had to shell out to Dortmund. And then Sanchez thinks hang on i want 300k a week, Ozil thinks hang on i want 300k a week

Yeah it would be ameliorated by clearing dross off the wage bill, but long term it's unsustainable. We could arguably do it once, maybe twice....Chelsea, United and City can do it every season.

We know the club's reluctance to put Sanchez on higher contract is because no one can earn more than Wengy chops....but arguably should that not be the case. If we brought in Allegri for instance, isn't he going to want 10 million a year at least?.....won't he also believe that there will be a problem with players following his authority if they earn more than him.

[Özim]

It's the one off wages, if you sign a player of 60 million + that player then wants wages of 250-300k a week and then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

I'll be honest and say that's typical Wenger school of thinking, he's got people convinced their won't be harmony if there's a big pay disparity, that's his policy and a damn stupid one if you ask me (it's hindered us massively over the years), he paid the likes of Bendtner, Denilson etc much more than they were worth because of this.

Do Barca say to Messi we can't pay you more because other players will want the same, do Real say this to Ronaldo? No better players command better wages because they are more talented and more desirable ad perhaps more important to the team, that's always been the case and I don't believe for one minute is causes issues (except for players who think they are better than they are in which case get rid).

Some of these ideas Wenger has literally pulled out of the sky seem to have become ingrained in the clubs thinking now, this is what I mean when I say Wenger will leave this club not in a great state, he's changed this club in so many ways and it's deeply ingrained in it's culture now and changing it will be very hard, any new manager will find it much harder than normal because of all this, which is why he'll need to be given plenty of time.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'll be honest and say that's typical Wenger school of thinking, he's got people convince their won't be harmony if there's a big pay disparity, that's his policy and a damn stupid one if you ask me (it's hindered us massively over the years), he paid the likes of Bendtner, Denilson etc much more than they were worth because of this.

Do Barca say to Messi we can't pay you more because other players will want the same, to Real say this to Ronaldo? No better players command better wages because they are more talented and more desirable ad perhaps more important to the team, that's always been the case and I don't beelive for one minute is causes issues (except for players who think they are better than they are in which case get rid).

Erm what???

My point is to sign players of the quality of Sanchez and Ozil we are going to have to pay 60 million+, and because of that they are going to demand 300k a week

If we kept those two and tried to sign a 60-70 million pound player that will be the bracket of a Griezmann, do you honestly think Sanchez and Ozil think of themselves as being in a lower quality bracket to Griezmann and even if they did their agents wouldn't think so.

You are honestly comparing us to Barcelona? This is the point i have been making.....we aren't Barcelona....without a narcissistic oligarch we never will be Barcelona . Barcelona don't have a sugar daddy but they have the reputation to market themselves because of their reputation and get the A Grade sponsorship deals....this is the same arrangement for Bayern Munich.

I know Wenger will come up with a myriad of excuses for his failings, but ultimately brass tacks....there's a man with a masters degree in economics and then...there's you :lol:

[Özim]

Erm what???

My point is to sign players of the quality of Sanchez and Ozil we are going to have to pay 60 million+, and because of that they are going to demand 300k a week

If we kept those two and tried to sign a 60-70 million pound player that will be the bracket of a Griezmann, do you honestly think Sanchez and Ozil think of themselves as being in a lower quality bracket to Griezmann and even if they did their agents wouldn't think so.

You are honestly comparing us to Barcelona? This is the point i have been making.....we aren't Barcelona....without a narcissistic oligarch we never will be Barcelona . Barcelona don't have a sugar daddy but they have the reputation to market themselves because of their reputation and get the A Grade sponsorship deals....this is the same arrangement for Bayern Munich.

You specifically said:


then the other players think why am i not on that, their agents start pushing for contract negotiations or trying to tout them elsewhere....it's what's called a domino effect

By this I assume you mean the players we have, I don't agree with this at all to be honest, players want to see top players come in to give them more chance of winning big trophies and they also realise that they aren't at the same level as the very best.

I think Sanchez and Ozil would think great a top player coming in, we have a better chance of trophies, I think they'd be happy about it. As for money, well if they are delivering world beating performances regularly you pay up because they are that good, like other clubs do.

No I'm not, I'm just pointing out it's ridiculous to think all other players will want massive wages because your best players who are the most important part of your team get paid more, this applies to any club, I was simply giving you examples. Noone else has any issue with it so I don't see why we would be the exception, it's basically one of those stupid Wenger ideas.

In addition, if you're winning trophies, it tends to be easier to keep players, it's when you're not it becomes harder.

[Power n Glory]

It was in response to the post you quoted about people thinking the club is a lot smaller than it is and i mentioned that on the contrary because of the spending power some of the expectations of the club are unrealistic

To be fair i have also added as a massive caveat countless times by saying that Leicester especially was proof that even when Money isn't a factor Wenger fails

Yes i think we can be doing a hell of a lot better, i hate the humiliations etc

But I do think there are unrealistic expectations, 90% of the league titles in the next ten years will be won by Chelsea, United and City just like they were in the last ten years, the failure of Wenger is not even to make a fist at fighting against that and not taking the chance when these clubs have an off season.

And to fail in the same way, season in, season out

Maybe people are being unrealistic about spending power in other threads, but that wasn’t the point to the original conversation. Anyone linking how much Bayern spend on their team compared to ours do so in order to debunk Wenger’s excuses about why we fail. Selassie’s original post highlights the complete difference in mentality Bayern have to what we have here at Arsenal. We are a bigger club. Not the biggest but years of Wenger talking down our European record before he arrived and the excuses about finances just creates a bigger mental monster where we aim lower than what we should.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe people are being unrealistic about spending power in other threads, but that wasn’t the point to the original conversation. Anyone linking how much Bayern spend on their team compared to ours do so in order to debunk Wenger’s excuses about why we fail. Selassie’s original post highlights the complete difference in mentality Bayern have to what we have here at Arsenal. We are a bigger club. Not the biggest but years of Wenger talking down our European record before he arrived and the excuses about finances just creates a bigger mental monster where we aim lower than what we should.

Yes and this segways into the fact that some fans believe Wenger's obfuscations caused the quote "some people think we are a smaller club than we are"

and i decided to respond by stating that equally some fans believe we are bigger than we are. A club's stature especially in this day and age is defined by it's spending power.

And then the conversation went more into the realms of spending, i know you get terribly disturbed and troubled by the tangential nature of football forums but try not to let it get to you too much :wacko:

[Letters]

I just want to go into big games not knowing what the outcome is, having my palms sweaty before the game because it could go either way. I am sick of knowing almost with 100% certainty how our games against the big guys are going to be like. There have been a few outliers like the win against Barcelona at home, against City away and Chelsea this season which does make me sit up and take notice but you know that these victories are more anomalies than the norm.

Frankly, I just want to get excited about the club again.

:good:

Predictability is the death of sport and there is no interest when it's become so certain we'll fail.
If I'm guilty of anything it's holding out hope longer than many of you that maybe, just maybe, things will be different this year.
Without that hope then...oh, what's the point?

And actually after 15 games we were doing OK, we'd only lost once - on the opening day, admittedly - and we'd beaten Chelsea at home.
There were some warning signs, drawing with Spurs and home and Utd away, and we were pretty fortunate in the latter by all accounts. But overall it was so far so good at that point. It was after that the wheels fell off and now we're heading to the same inevitable conclusion, scrambling around desperately trying to finish above Spurs and in the top 4 and round and round we go.

I think Wenger did well enough in the years where we couldn't compete financially. Could have done better, maybe should have done at times. Certainly could have done a lot worse. But the money is there now, there's no excuse not to be competing with the very best. We aren't.
I hope he goes at the end of this season when he could still do so with some respectability and I think most fans will come to appreciate his legacy - there will be a few Zim's who will stubbornly refuse to but they'll be the minority.

I fear though that like a gambler desperately going on and on to try and recoup his losses he'll stay on and it will all get quite nasty. Shame really.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You specifically said:



By this I assume you mean the players we have, I don't agree with this at all to be honest, players want to see top players come in to give them more chance of winning big trophies and they also realise that they aren't at the same level as the very best.

I think Sanchez and Ozil would think great a top player coming in, we have a better chance of trophies, I think they'd be happy about it. As for money, well if they are delivering world beating performances regularly you pay up because they are that good, like other clubs do.

No I'm not, I'm just pointing out it's ridiculous to think all other players will want massive wages because your best players who are the most important part of your team get paid more, this applies to any club, I was simply giving you examples. Noone else has any issue with it so I don't see why we would be the exception, it's basically one of those stupid Wenger ideas.

In addition, if you're winning trophies, it tends to be easier to keep players, it's when you're not it becomes harder.

No but the point is you can agree or disagree with the current wage bill in connection to the quality of the squad, but currently it is already at the level almost of Man United and Man City.....if we kept Sanchez and Ozil with a 60/70 million signing we either have to downsize our squad in number or have a financially unsustainable wage bill.

Being financially unsustainable doesn't apply to Chelsea or Man City but it does to us, whether we like it or not.

Plus also i stated we have the money in reserve to maybe spend on an Aubemeyang or Griezmann as a one off, Chelsea, United and City can do it every season

[Power n Glory]

I'll be honest and say that's typical Wenger school of thinking, he's got people convinced their won't be harmony if there's a big pay disparity, that's his policy and a damn stupid one if you ask me (it's hindered us massively over the years), he paid the likes of Bendtner, Denilson etc much more than they were worth because of this.

Do Barca say to Messi we can't pay you more because other players will want the same, do Real say this to Ronaldo? No better players command better wages because they are more talented and more desirable ad perhaps more important to the team, that's always been the case and I don't believe for one minute is causes issues (except for players who think they are better than they are in which case get rid).

Some of these ideas Wenger has literally pulled out of the sky seem to have become ingrained in the clubs thinking now, this is what I mean when I say Wenger will leave this club not in a great state, he's changed this club in so many ways and it's deeply ingrained in it's culture now and changing it will be very hard, any new manager will find it much harder than normal because of all this, which is why he'll need to be given plenty of time.

Totally agree and it's almost like it's indoctrinated into everyone's thinking.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

If the above numbers are true, we're talking about a £25m difference between us and the top spenders.

[Marc Overmars]

Maybe people are being unrealistic about spending power in other threads, but that wasn’t the point to the original conversation. Anyone linking how much Bayern spend on their team compared to ours do so in order to debunk Wenger’s excuses about why we fail. Selassie’s original post highlights the complete difference in mentality Bayern have to what we have here at Arsenal. We are a bigger club. Not the biggest but years of Wenger talking down our European record before he arrived and the excuses about finances just creates a bigger mental monster where we aim lower than what we should.

Bro, did you say we are a bigger club than Bayern Munich?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Totally agree and it's almost like it's indoctrinated into everyone's thinking.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

If the above numbers are true, we're talking about a £25m difference between us and the top spenders.

I tend to think people don't have an argument if they say if you don't agree with me you are indoctrinated/brain washed

It's basic maths

I know our wage bill is incredibly high, but just imagine you divested the squad of every player you thought wasn't performing or we couldn't get anything out of....first of all there is the trouble offloading them because of their wages, and even if you can anyone you bring in who is going to be better will cost more in transfer fees and wages.

If we keep the squad and just top it up with top quality than we will end up having a giant wage bill one that even threatens to surpass that of United, City and Chelsea, the difference is they can afford to whack these type of players in reserve we can't.

Basically the tv deal has only had the negative effects you get from quantative easing.....inflation.

[Power n Glory]

Yes and this segways into the fact that some fans believe Wenger's obfuscations caused the quote "some people think we are a smaller club than we are"

and i decided to respond by stating that equally some fans believe we are bigger than we are. A club's stature especially in this day and age is defined by it's spending power.

And then the conversation went more into the realms of spending, i know you get terribly disturbed and troubled by the tangential nature of football forums but try not to let it get to you too much :wacko:

I'm quite calm but I'm not sure why you're so hostile. The fact that you resorted to that little 'go fuck yourself' outburst suggest you're losing your cool a bit. It doesn't have to go down that route.


and i decided to respond by stating that equally some fans believe we are bigger than we are. A club's stature especially in this day and age is defined by it's spending power.

That's your definition. The original conversation wasn't being framed around finances and even if we're going off that basis, we're the 7th richest according to reports and above the current league leaders and definitely above Leicester City. There isn't a huge golf between us and our rivals and there are teams across Europe working with a lot less that are more progressive in their leagues and CL compared to us.

Constantly jumping back to the money argument in the same way Wenger does proves MM's point about having a small club mentality.

[Özim]

No but the point is you can agree or disagree with the current wage bill in connection to the quality of the squad, but currently it is already at the level almost of Man United and Man City.....if we kept Sanchez and Ozil with a 60/70 million signing we either have to downsize our squad in number or have a financially unsustainable wage bill.

Being financially unsustainable doesn't apply to Chelsea or Man City but it does to us, whether we like it or not.

Plus also i stated we have the money in reserve to maybe spend on an Aubemeyang or Griezmann as a one off, Chelsea, United and City can do it every season

I think our squad is overpaid for the quality, but that's because Wenger spends on the wrong players, our squad is inbalanced anyway, I'd much rather have a smaller squad with better players.

Not strictly true, we're owned by two billionairs, trouble is one of them at least is in it for the profit and nothing else, but we can afford to be like Chelsea and all the other clubs, Usmanov is actually richer than Abrahmovic but he can't get a look in.

Again though that's our choice, but Chelsea and co haven't been spending as much as before, the problem is not the money IMO, it's who we sign, every summer we tend to leave it late and end up with relative nobodies when better players were available at prices we can afford before that, that's our fault not the fact Chelsea and City can spend.

[Özim]

Totally agree and it's almost like it's indoctrinated into everyone's thinking.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

If the above numbers are true, we're talking about a £25m difference between us and the top spenders.

Wenger has in a way brainwashed people into his way of thinking, it's become the only way, the only thing we can do, trouble is other clubs don't follow those rules at all.

[Power n Glory]

Bro, did you say we are a bigger club than Bayern Munich?

No, I'm just agreeing with the statement that we're a bigger club than what most people think.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The go fuck your self was to save time, the Question "why are you talking about this?" only befits a response of "because I am go fuck yourself"
You don't agree with my definition of what constitutes a big club, you don't have to but you're the one in confusion as to why the subject became about money. Now whilst I don't Particularly care about your confusion I've doing you the favour of saying how it became about money, that you don't think the discussion should be about money is irrelevant.

But you did in fairness ask nicely, despite my way of shortening what was likely to become tiresome by telling you to go fuck yourself

It's not hostile, it's do we have to do this again it's tedious

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No, I'm just agreeing with the statement that we're a bigger club than what most people think.

And can you explain exactly why you think that without mentioning money?

[Letters]

Wenger has in a way brainwashed people into his way of thinking.

:lol: Pretty sure he was on the grassy knoll too..

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think our squad is overpaid for the quality, but that's because Wenger spends on the wrong players, our squad is inbalanced anyway, I'd much rather have a smaller squad with better players.

Not strictly true, we're owned by two billionairs, trouble is one of them at least is in it for the profit and nothing else, but we can afford to be like Chelsea and all the other clubs, Usmanov is actually richer than Abrahmovic but he can't get a look in.

Again though that's our choice, but Chelsea and co haven't been spending as much as before, the problem is not the money IMO, it's who we sign, every summer we tend to leave it late and end up with relative nobodies when better players were available at prices we can afford before that, that's our fault not the fact Chelsea and City can spend.

Ok let's try and make this simple can Chelsea, City and United spend on two or three players of 50-60 million value per season?

And can we?

[Özim]

Ok let's try and make this simple can Chelsea, City and United spend on two or three players of 50-60 million value per season?

And can we?

Yes

Yes, but we choose not to.

If you asked me will we, then no.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes

Yes, but we choose not to.

If you asked me will we, then no.

Ok i just wanted that on record:rolleyes:

But i don't want to be unfair so will give you another go

Are you able to expand upon "but we choose not to", are you referring to the self-sustaining model where the two billionaire share holders aren't putting the money in or are you talking about the money we have whilst being self-sustaining?

[Power n Glory]

And can you explain exactly why you think that without mentioning money?

Being one of the most popular clubs around the world, the players we attract, our history, the stadium….but to get into that still misses the point. The conversation started around comparing a mentality and not wallets. But even if you want to go down that path, reports keep saying we’re richer than the current league leaders, the last Champions and let’s not forget, Chelsea were title winners the season before that. On wages, it doesn’t look like there is a huge gap between us either. But again, it all come back to needing a shift in mentality.

[Özim]

Ok i just wanted that on record:rolleyes:

But i don't want to be unfair so will give you another go

Are you able to expand upon "but we choose not to", are you referring to the self-sustaining model where the two billionaire share holders aren't putting the money in or are you talking about the money we have whilst being self-sustaining?

Yes sure, we choose not to because we have adopted a self sustaining model, whilst this is good I guess it also suits the agenda of the people in charge, however sometimes you have to speculate to accummulate and spend a bit more to make more, considering we have two billionaire owners, this would be a drop in the ocean for them that they could recoup later anyway.

We won't spend because Kroenke has no interest in football and only sees us as a business nothing more, we'd be far better served with someone in charge who enjoys football like Abrahmovic, because he wants to see his club succeed and understands what it takes, he also probably realises success on the pitch translates to success off it, as demonstrated by Manchester United.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Being one of the most popular clubs around the world, the players we attract, our history, the stadium….but to get into that still misses the point. The conversation started around comparing a mentality and not wallets. But even if you want to go down that path, reports keep saying we’re richer than the current league leaders, the last Champions and let’s not forget, Chelsea were title winners the season before that. On wages, it doesn’t look like there is a huge gap between us either. But again, it all come back to needing a shift in mentality.

Richer as defined by Outgoings minus Generated Income certainly we are richer than Chelsea

Richer as defined by they can spend 150-200million on transfers per season every season than they are far richer than us.

I agree totally with Mentality, but it will only get you so far. I would argue that Diego Simeone has instilled the best mentality in the world into the players of Atletico Madrid and it allowed them to defy the odds and win la liga in 2014, but ultimately they will fall short more often than not because clubs will come in for their best players and Barcelona and Real Madrid can vastly outspend them.

Bayern Munich for sure have a winner's mentality but they also have the attraction of being FC Hollywood the most prestigious club in Germany and can vastly outspend any club in Germany to bring the best players of their rivals to the club, thus how it has always been with them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes sure, we choose not to because we have adopted a self sustaining model, whilst this is good I guess it also suits the agenda of the people in charge, however sometimes you have to speculate to accummulate and spend a bit more to make more, considering we have two billionaire owners, this would be a drop in the ocean for them that they could recoup later anyway.

We won't spend because Kroenke has no interest in football and only sees us as a business nothing more, we'd be far better served with someone in charge who enjoys football like Abrahmovic, because he wants to see his club succeed and understands what it takes, he also probably realises success on the pitch translates to success off it, as demonstrated by Manchester United.

Ok that's fine....but as long as you acknowledge that the self-sustaining model is not going to change, and Kroenke is going nowhere.....that Chelsea, City and United can spend on two-three 50-60 million value players a season and we cannot.

It may be unfair when we have two billionaire share holders, but it's also a fact.

[Power n Glory]

Richer as defined by Outgoings minus Generated Income certainly we are richer than Chelsea

Richer as defined by they can spend 150-200million on transfers per season every season than they are far richer than us.

I agree totally with Mentality, but it will only get you so far. I would argue that Diego Simeone has instilled the best mentality in the world into the players of Atletico Madrid and it allowed them to defy the odds and win la liga in 2014, but ultimately they will fall short more often than not because clubs will come in for their best players and Barcelona and Real Madrid can vastly outspend them.

Bayern Munich for sure have a winner's mentality but they also have the attraction of being FC Hollywood the most prestigious club in Germany and can vastly outspend any club in Germany to bring the best players of their rivals to the club, thus how it has always been with them.

We've spent more than Chelsea in this transfer window. We spent more than them last season and the season before that!

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/transfers/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2016&s_w=&leihe=0&leihe=1&intern=0&intern=1

They haven't spent £150m -£200m in a while. Most teams haven't. But if we're able to sustain spending a similar amount to what we've spent this year or the seasons before, we're in good shape. It's an argument that needs to be thrown out the window.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Come on Man give it up, they haven't needed to because they have Costa, Hazard, Kante etc in their squad

You are now going off at a tangent, if you are asking me if I agree that we have mis spent money of course we have. I fear like Zim you are so preoccupied with Wenger that you can't see the woods for the trees.

Hazard, Matic, Costa, Willian what do you think they would have cost Chelsea if they were bought last summer when the tv money inflated the value of every player.

Kante was cheaper because Leicester knew they had no way of keeping him and because he was bought from within the premier league, buying from outside everyone costs twice as much.

When Chelsea need to bring out the chequebook to spend 50-60 million on the next superstar they will.

We can bring in a manager who will spend better than Wenger I hope, but to believe Chelsea cannot whenever it suits them vastly outspend us I don't know what to say to that.

Also Luiz, Alonso, Kante and Batshuyi that's over 100 million just there

Xhaka, Lucas and Mustafi - 90million

[Power n Glory]

Herb, have we or have we not spent more than Chelsea in the last few transfer windows? Have Chelsea spent £200m in their last few transfer windows? Year on year? This is all fact I'm dealing with. All argued upon the parameters you have set regarding expenditure.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Have we spent more money than Chelsea on transfers in the past three seasons? No

Is the net spend greater because of the money they have recouped by selling players like De Bruyne, Luiz and Oscar ? Yes

Have Chelsea assembled a squad by spending money on players that we could not have afforded when they did? Yes

But, but Wenger...but, but small club mentality

Wenger is an incompetent of course, he has built up a ridiculous wage bill for players many of whom have cost us very little in transfer fees....it's a bit of a con trick to give the impression of being parsimonious.

But it doesn't change the fact that we don't have the finances to buy a squad of the quality that Chelsea and Man City have not by a long way, has it done Man City much good? Not really but if one club isn't performing another one of the triumvirate clubs will.

Chelsea if you take the average amount of points they have accumulated are on course to get near to their record points tally of 2004/2005....even with a better manager I think that's beyond us and has been since the invincibles. The disgrace with Wenger is how far we fall short of it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The parameters I have set were can Chelsea, City and United spend upwards of 180million on players per year.

They clearly can.

[selassie]

Richer as defined by Outgoings minus Generated Income certainly we are richer than Chelsea

Richer as defined by they can spend 150-200million on transfers per season every season than they are far richer than us.

I agree totally with Mentality, but it will only get you so far. I would argue that Diego Simeone has instilled the best mentality in the world into the players of Atletico Madrid and it allowed them to defy the odds and win la liga in 2014, but ultimately they will fall short more often than not because clubs will come in for their best players and Barcelona and Real Madrid can vastly outspend them.

Bayern Munich for sure have a winner's mentality but they also have the attraction of being FC Hollywood the most prestigious club in Germany and can vastly outspend any club in Germany to bring the best players of their rivals to the club, thus how it has always been with them.

Herb, Mentality is everything. We are one of the richest clubs in the world, located in London, play in the Champions League every season, we have everything in place to succeed and progress into a superclub.

We were sold a dream 10+ years ago that we would be moving to a State of the art stadium to compete with the very best clubs in the world both on and off the pitch. We have gone backwards in Europe, our standing and reputation in the Champions League is in tatters, we are not respected in the competition and rightly so because of our pitiful performances over the past what 6 or 7 years. Gazidis told us we wanted to be like Bayern Munich, we are nowhere near them, the mentality for a start is one of the biggest differences.

It's not just that we appear not to be competing, it's the attitude, the mentality, we do not appear to be doing anything to rectify it. It's not acceptable, this isn't about blindly wanting to win every tournament we enter or wanting to compete with Barca & Real to sign the next Messi or Ronaldo, this is about improving upon what we have, it's about not standing still or stagnating as a Football team, it's about Wenger taking stock of the task at hand and not accepting second best, he needs to be told that this is simply not good enough and that he needs to find solutions and find them fast.

The reality of the situation is that our noisy neighbours who we use to laugh at are now on the verge of overtaking us, many don't want to hear it including myself but hand on heart do we have a better team than the Spuds? I mean really? What makes it worse is all of their best players sign their contracts no problem, we have squad players aswell as our stars desperate for a move away.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ozil is on 160k

So you don't think that if we signed Sanchez up to a new deal for say 250k, and then we sign Aubemeyang for 60-70million....he is going to demand 300k a week to correspond to the money we have had to shell out to Dortmund. And then Sanchez thinks hang on i want 300k a week, Ozil thinks hang on i want 300k a week

Yeah it would be ameliorated by clearing dross off the wage bill, but long term it's unsustainable. We could arguably do it once, maybe twice....Chelsea, United and City can do it every season.

We know the club's reluctance to put Sanchez on higher contract is because no one can earn more than Wengy chops....but arguably should that not be the case. If we brought in Allegri for instance, isn't he going to want 10 million a year at least?.....won't he also believe that there will be a problem with players following his authority if they earn more than him.

Well how have the chavs and gypo and Barca and Bayern managed? You make it sound like a uncontainable catastrophic chain reaction. Just one decent player signed and the whole thing goes to hell. That's a bit too close to a Wenger ploy for my liking. Why are we the only club who runs the risk of being annihilated by wage demands? Anyway, it's not a straight FIFA rating shootout. Player contracts are complex and involve a ton of extra shit over and above x amount for turning up on a Saturday. Image rights, bonuses, dues to previous clubs, brown envelope to Blatter and Platini. And then the media takes all of it and shouts so-and-so is on a billion a week.

Regardless. We moved to this stadium to compete. It'd be easier perhaps if these bastards weren't sitting on the largest cash reserve in world football. What good is that cash doing being deflated away as the wage demands increased each year? Either we're in this or we aren't. No point saying yes, we want to compete, and then handing over a fiver and asking for change. If we aren't going to compete then the ticket prices should be slashed.

Too many bullshit excuses at this club and too many times it all seems it's a one way street.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well how have the chavs and gypo and Barca and Bayern managed? You make it sound like a uncontainable catastrophic chain reaction. Just one decent player signed and the whole thing goes to hell. That's a bit too close to a Wenger ploy for my liking. Why are we the only club who runs the risk of being annihilated by wage demands? Anyway, it's not a straight FIFA rating shootout. Player contracts are complex and involve a ton of extra shit over and above x amount for turning up on a Saturday. Image rights, bonuses, dues to previous clubs, brown envelope to Blatter and Platini. And then the media takes all of it and shouts so-and-so is on a billion a week.

Regardless. We moved to this stadium to compete. It'd be easier perhaps if these bastards weren't sitting on the largest cash reserve in world football. What good is that cash doing being deflated away as the wage demands increased each year? Either we're in this or we aren't. No point saying yes, we want to compete, and then handing over a fiver and asking for change. If we aren't going to compete then the ticket prices should be slashed.

Too many bullshit excuses at this club and too many times it all seems it's a one way street.

I read how have the chavs, gypos, Bayern and Barca managed. I stopped reading after that.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Herb, Mentality is everything. We are one of the richest clubs in the world, located in London, play in the Champions League every season, we have everything in place to succeed and progress into a superclub.

We were sold a dream 10+ years ago that we would be moving to a State of the art stadium to compete with the very best clubs in the world both on and off the pitch. We have gone backwards in Europe, our standing and reputation in the Champions League is in tatters, we are not respected in the competition and rightly so because of our pitiful performances over the past what 6 or 7 years. Gazidis told us we wanted to be like Bayern Munich, we are nowhere near them, the mentality for a start is one of the biggest differences.

It's not just that we appear not to be competing, it's the attitude, the mentality, we do not appear to be doing anything to rectify it. It's not acceptable, this isn't about blindly wanting to win every tournament we enter or wanting to compete with Barca & Real to sign the next Messi or Ronaldo, this is about improving upon what we have, it's about not standing still or stagnating as a Football team, it's about Wenger taking stock of the task at hand and not accepting second best, he needs to be told that this is simply not good enough and that he needs to find solutions and find them fast.

The reality of the situation is that our noisy neighbours who we use to laugh at are now on the verge of overtaking us, many don't want to hear it including myself but hand on heart do we have a better team than the Spuds? I mean really? What makes it worse is all of their best players sign their contracts no problem, we have squad players aswell as our stars desperate for a move away.

Mentality is often not enough without money, Money is significantly dented without Mentality. You need both.

People laud Simeone because of Atletis mentality, but they have not been able to break the two club domination in Spain of Barca and Real....that's not a failing. It's just understanding that money is the most important factor in the game, not the only one but the most important for sure.

I think honestly some users on here are frightened to face this reality because it will appear like an excuse for Wenger. We can definitely do better, we can compete but without Kroenke paying out of his pocket we won't be able to break the city-United-Chelsea hegemony, anymore than Atletico can break the Real-Barca one.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www2.deloitte.com/uk/en/pages/sports-business-group/articles/deloitte-football-money-league.html

It's pretty easy to see that not only do we have an incompetent manager but, relatively speaking, we also have an incompetent executive. Check the figures. You can quickly see where the top clubs are getting the bulk of their revenue. Then compare us. Somebody is not doing their job, but that's hardly anything new at Arsenal.

[selassie]

Mentality is nothing without money, Money is significantly dented without Mentality. You need both.

People laud Simeone because of Atletis mentality, but they have not been able to break the two club domination in Spain of Barca and Real....that's not a failing. It's just understanding that money is the most important factor in the game, not the only one but the most important for sure.

We have enough funds to succeed, certainly in the Prem.

Are you comparing La Liga to the Prem? As it stands we don't have any equivalents to Barca and Real in the Prem, there are no dominant teams.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also, Leicester City entered the top 20 last season. Why? Because success brings rewards. Stagnation doesn't. Leicester won't stay there, but it does show how volatile things can be and how, Arsenal's sustainability model is perhaps the very worst way to try to fund a competitive football team.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I agree I think the business model isn't great

But the same business model will be there whoever the manager is

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Two of the posts I made five minutes ago have just disappeared

Explanation please mods

[Niall_Quinn]

Loads of posts missing. Ah well, first debate in quite a while, but no evidence to prove it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Two of the posts I made five minutes ago have just disappeared

Explanation please mods

Dunno what happened, just logged in.

[GP]

The whole place was offline for a while. Probably a database problem.

*wink*

[Bumble]

Loads of posts missing. Ah well, first debate in quite a while, but no evidence to prove it.

Can you have a debate when there are opposing opinions?

[Power n Glory]

The parameters I have set were can Chelsea, City and United spend upwards of 180million on players per year.

They clearly can.

I'm sure I answered this. Looks like they wiped this off yesterday too.

FFP rulings look to be having an effect on Chelsea because they have to sell in order to buy. The only time I expect a team to go large and spend around £150m to £200m is when a new manager comes in and has to rebuild. And that's if the FFP rulings permit it because Conte hasn't gone crazy in the window as expected and neither did Mourinho.

[Letters]

"They" didn't wipe anything <_<
Poked Jof with a stick to see what is going on.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And as i've explained they haven't needed to, and FFP? Get real since when has that proved in anyway effective.

Chelsea spent almost 120 million in transfers fees in the summer, and that has only been lessened by selling Oscar to China for 50m....a player who was hardly playing

The Inflation of transfers from outside into the premier league because of the TV money, means that where spending 80-100m could get you 2-3 world class players, you are having to spend 150-180million.

Now without question Man United and Man City will spend that much if they need to, and although i agree that Abramovich is trying to put Chelsea more on a path to self-sustainability....if he thought they were in danger of being left behind by those two clubs that'd all go out the window.

[Letters]

It's worth noting that Chelsea have about a billion players out on loan to clubs who aren't rivals, City's owners bought a whole new club to stockpile players :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

However i'd also add as a caveat that even with the stockpiling of players that their wage bill isn't significantly larger than ours (these non rival clubs won't be paying the wages of these players)

That's on Wenger, he hasn't learn his lesson from putting Denilson and Bendtner on 50k a week

[Letters]

Denilllll......son! :lol:

[Power n Glory]

And as i've explained they haven't needed to, and FFP? Get real since when has that proved in anyway effective.

Chelsea spent almost 120 million in transfers fees in the summer, and that has only been lessened by selling Oscar to China for 50m....a player who was hardly playing

The Inflation of transfers from outside into the premier league because of the TV money, means that where spending 80-100m could get you 2-3 world class players, you are having to spend 150-180million.

Now without question Man United and Man City will spend that much if they need to, and although i agree that Abramovich is trying to put Chelsea more on a path to self-sustainability....if he thought they were in danger of being left behind by those two clubs that'd all go out the window.

This is false information. From what I'm looking at, Chelsea spent £112m if we want to ignore the players they sold. Include the players they sold, it's £28m spent in total. We spent £90m and had just over £6m from transfer income.

Since our sponsorship deals, Chelsea have not had their expenditure rise above £120m in the window. Arsenal - the most for us is just over £100m. That's not a huge difference. If we're able to spend that much in a window, it doesn't mean we can't afford World Class players, it just means it will take a couple seasons for us to build a team where others like City can get all their players in over one summer instead of two. And that fast turn around doesn't result in instant success....as we are seeing with Pep and Jose.

I'm getting all my info from here. The info you're putting out is false.

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/transfers/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=2016&s_w=&leihe=0&intern=0#to-631

That ridiculous fee Man Utd paid for Pogba and the crazy money banded around for strikers shouldn't be viewed as the standard. If we'd have picked up Kante, Gabriel Jesus and Mkhitaryan that's under £100m spent.

[Penguin]

We do have money but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking we can compete with City, Chelsea or United financially. We probably have enough in the bank to go all out in the market but don't forget that a lot of that money is only there because we've been careful with our spending. We can't afford to waste that on £50m dud signings like Torres, whereas the other three can easily shrug it off and spend another £100m in the next window. That's the difference.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Sorry £113 million, obviously i'm wildly distorting (False information ha ha)

Chelsea have spent 300 million in transfers in the past three seasons, they have recouped more by getting rid of players they didn't need

But again you miss my point, whether you want to accept it or not the tv money has inflated the value of players we'd look to bring in from abroad. This is why we had to pay over 70million just for Mustafi and Xhaka, why Leroy Sane cost Man City over 40 million etc.

A Griezmann a year or so ago would cost about 40 million, now it's between 60-70 million.

Now will Chelsea spend 180million a year every year? No because they won't need to because they have the most settled squad at the moment, but the idea that they couldn't is absurd.

City and United are no where near where they want to be so they will continue spending in the 150million+ bracket until it works for them

We cannot spend that much

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We do have money but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking we can compete with City, Chelsea or United financially. We probably have enough in the bank to go all out in the market but don't forget that a lot of that money is only there because we've been careful with our spending. We can't afford to waste that on £50m dud signings like Torres, whereas the other three can easily shrug it off and spend another £100m in the next window. That's the difference.

We can go all out on one player but this is not something we could do continually as and when we need to, Chelsea/City and United can that's the point i'm making

It's not papering over the myriad failures of Wenger, it's an acceptance that 90% of the time the title winner will most likely be Chelsea, City or United (or the way it has been for over a decade)

[Letters]

Why are we talking about money anyway? We're struggling to compete with Spurs.
There was a time when money was a factor in why we weren't competing, it's not a factor now.

[Power n Glory]

We do have money but we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking we can compete with City, Chelsea or United financially. We probably have enough in the bank to go all out in the market but don't forget that a lot of that money is only there because we've been careful with our spending. We can't afford to waste that on £50m dud signings like Torres, whereas the other three can easily shrug it off and spend another £100m in the next window. That's the difference.

The £100m we can afford to spend each season is from what we generate from the stadium, sponsorship deals and TV money I suspect. I don't think any of the money spent has come from us having to dip into the money we have in the bank. What is it? £200m?

We can't compete with those clubs when it comes to the quantity of players and can't afford to stockpile players. I think Chelsea have learned from that episode and City may follow considering how things are going for them.

With the money we generate, we should be able to match them 11 v 11. That Chelsea team top of the table aren't that better than us man for man either and that was the consensus earlier in the season.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Why are we talking about money anyway? We're struggling to compete with Spurs.
There was a time when money was a factor in why we weren't competing, it's not a factor now.

Sigh.....it's simply to clarify to people that even when we get rid of Wenger we won't be going toe to toe with Chelsea, City and United every season

People here seem to think it's a be careful what you wish for argument, it's a "he's got to go but don't expect miracles" argument