Match Reaction vs Lincoln City

[GP]

SHE WORE!

SHE WORE!

SHE WORE A YELLOW RIBBON!

[Globalgunner]

WE`RE BACK!!!!!!

[Niall_Quinn]

2nd half has been like watching Bayern arsenal again, by that I mean we looked a pub side against them and out of our depth.

[Marc Overmars]

Easy as you like that second half.

Let's see if we can fluke our way past a proper team now.

[Dicks and chicks]

Most undeserved FA cup semi finalists in cup history? I think so

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Millwall will be tough.

[Globalgunner]

Millwall will be tough.

They dont like black people. Even their own players.
We will have to play an all white team

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

My local team so we better trounce them. Have never lived down when they did us 2 nil in the 90's!

[Xhaka Can’t]

Wenger out celebrating with hookers and blow.

[fakeyank]

The cunts post match comments:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10799123/arsene-wenger-says-arsenal-criticism-after-bayern-munich-defeat-was-unjust

Looks like he aint leaving any time soon :ilt:

[Marc Overmars]

He responds to criticism as though it's a singularity, like it's a knee-jerk reaction to whatever has just happened. He doesn't seem to acknowledge it's an accumulation of years and years of mistakes and frustration. Even without a dud referee there was every chance Bayern would have taken us to the cleaners because we have previous.

[Niall_Quinn]

The cunts post match comments:

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10799123/arsene-wenger-says-arsenal-criticism-after-bayern-munich-defeat-was-unjust

Looks like he aint leaving any time soon :ilt:

Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?

We were outstanding, the players did not deserve criticism, and we lost 10-2 on aggregate.

[AFC Leveller]

It does look like he will end up staying judging by his comments recently. the 10-2 was embarrassing and any other manager would walk away but Wenger has been humiliated before and he;s still here. Against Man u, 8-2 in 2011, 4-0 before that in the FA cup and that CL semi where we bottled it big time. 6-0 against Chelsea, 5-1 at Anfield, Monaco at home, Bayern away etc these are just a few of the heavy defeats we've suffered and the man shows no sign of walking away or even acknowledging that he cant do it anymore.

When you look at the protests on Tuesday and today, only about 200 people turned up which is a very small minority considering we have over 50k home fans at the emirates. I know for a fact that there are a lot more Wenger out fans at the stadium and at home but He wont care as long as its only a couple of hundred fans max.

[Letters]

Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?

We were outstanding, the players did not deserve criticism, and we lost 10-2 on aggregate.

On the night you spent all evening saying how it was a fix and neither Wenger or the players deserve criticism.
Now Wenger's saying it so you disagree? :blink:

[Özim]

We beat a pub team full of part timers and Wenger thinks with the real deal again, honestly he has the memory of a goldfish. We've been terrible this season and one win against a bunch of nobodies and he thinks everything is great again.

I love the way he asbolves the players of any fault after the 5-1 drubbing, this is the problem with him, he excuses disgraceful performances, no wonder the players don't put any effort in and don't give a damn when they get trashed. Always someone else's fault with him, there's just no hope with him, he's totally deluedd, hes embarassing himself tbh.

Just wish he would accept responsibility and lay some blame at his players door for once in his life. Looks like we're stuck with the guy, he's going w're got a few more years of collapses and humiliating thrashings coming up, great!

[Niall_Quinn]

On the night you spent all evening saying how it was a fix and neither Wenger or the players deserve criticism.
Now Wenger's saying it so you disagree? :blink:

No, no, no, not the same thing at all. Maybe we did get robbed in the second leg, I can't remember but it sounds like we did. Fine. But what about the first leg? Wenger's short attention span again. He's trying to pretend the tie lasted 45 minutes instead of 180. He's his own spin doctor.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

In fairness it's not the players fault it's his. He put all out attacking substititions in the vein hope of chasing the game

[Niall_Quinn]

In fairness it's not the players fault it's his. He put all out attacking substititions in the vein hope of chasing the game

I've given up any expectation of Wenger taking responsibility himself. But at least he's proved beyond all doubt he's delusional. Only Wenger could stand there after a 10-2 drubbing and claim we did well. I can't think of anyone else in football who would try to sell such a ridiculous fantasy. And he believes it. He'll sit down and watch the game with you and show you how impressive we were. If you take him up on his offer, ask him if you can sit through a decade of fuck ups and see how well we did in those games too.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He did say that he took responsibility for that, he made the substitutions to chase the game rather than defend it out. He is unapologetic but he did state that it was on him.

[Niall_Quinn]

He did say that he took responsibility for that, he made the substitutions to chase the game rather than defend it out. He is unapologetic but he did state that it was on him.

And he based that on his complaint about the referee. We were out of this after the first leg and he's trying to make out we were somehow back in it until the referee intervened. It's disingenuous and a total misread of the situation.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And he based that on his complaint about the referee. We were out of this after the first leg and he's trying to make out we were somehow back in it until the referee intervened. It's disingenuous and a total misread of the situation.

I agree however I am referring specifically to the issue of the four goals we conceded after that point which he did take responsibility for.

Does it change the fact that we fucked the tie up completely in the first leg? No. Is his willingness to brush it aside shocking and pertains to a level of complacency and disconnect that is deeply concerning? Yes

But he did say that

[Letters]

No, no, no, not the same thing at all. Maybe we did get robbed in the second leg, I can't remember but it sounds like we did. Fine. But what about the first leg? Wenger's short attention span again. He's trying to pretend the tie lasted 45 minutes instead of 180. He's his own spin doctor.

He's quite clearly talking about the 2nd leg alone and he's saying the exact same thing you were on the night.
You've reached the final stage of ZD where you have no ability to look objectively at what he says or does. In this case he's saying pretty much the exact thing you were saying but when he says it it's wrong simply because it's him saying it.

Lots to criticise Wenger for right now, there's no need to make stuff up.

[selassie]

He's quite clearly talking about the 2nd leg alone and he's saying the exact same thing you were on the night.
You've reached the final stage of ZD where you have no ability to look objectively at what he says or does. In this case he's saying pretty much the exact thing you were saying but when he says it it's wrong simply because it's him saying it.

Lots to criticise Wenger for right now, there's no need to make stuff up.

The tie was finished in Munich, the end.

Why he had to focus on the referee for the 2nd leg is beyond me. I too think the referee made some very dubious decisions but it didn't affect the tie in the grand scheme of things...we were never at any stage before Kos's sending off close to clawing back the deficit.

Wenger deserves to be dug out on ludicrous stuff like this...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That he genuinely believes that we could have got back into the tie if not for the penalty decision?

If he genuinely believes that i don't think being "dug out" would change that for him as absurd as the belief is.

[rodders]

He seems to genuinely believe that winning 5 nil at home against a non league side means the crisis is over.

[selassie]

That he genuinely believes that we could have got back into the tie if not for the penalty decision?

If he genuinely believes that i don't think being "dug out" would change that for him as absurd as the belief is.

Herb...He was happy with the team after they got thumped 10-2 on aggregate in Europe, it is absurd.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Herb...He was happy with the team after they got thumped 10-2 on aggregate in Europe, it is absurd.

Yes i know it's absurd, what i'm saying is for him to be happy with that no amount of digging him out is going to change his mind

[Letters]

Wenger deserves to be dug out on ludicrous stuff like this...
Not really. He was being asked about the 2nd leg, he said what he thought - which is the same as what some people on here thought.
We were doing OK and the ref stepped in, gave them a penalty, sent one of our players off and that changed everything.
Of course that doesn't excuse the first leg results or actually the 2nd leg end result - clearly we were never going to qualify but we shouldn't have collapsed so badly either.
As an assessment of the game itself though it's reasonable enough and in happier times no-one would be making an issue of this.
There are enough things to bash Wenger about, new ones don't need making up.

[selassie]

Not really. He was being asked about the 2nd leg, he said what he thought - which is the same as what some people on here thought.
We were doing OK and the ref stepped in, gave them a penalty, sent one of our players off and that changed everything.
Of course that doesn't excuse the first leg results or actually the 2nd leg end result - clearly we were never going to qualify but we shouldn't have collapsed so badly either.
As an assessment of the game itself though it's reasonable enough and in happier times no-one would be making an issue of this.
There are enough things to bash Wenger about, new ones don't need making up.

Did you read his post match comments after the game? You go have a look on Arsenal.com and tell me what he is saying is right.....

I mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago that Wenger sets his own criteria and achievements and what not...he's doing this post Bayern in a round about way. He was saying we played an outstanding game and he's happy with the team...he's happy that we played well for 45 minutes? One half of the game...it's bonkers Letters and you know it!

[Özim]

Honestly his interviews, brushing aside the pathetic displays and actually giving credit to his players after getting hammered 5-1 is cringeworthy to say the least, we've been thrashed twice by Bayern and beaten by Liverpool and the guy still think his team have done great, delusional doesn't even start do describe him, the guy genuinely thinks he's doing a good job and that his players are doing well, he's a total joke and the fact he even has a chance of staying at this once great club is an even bigger joke.

No other manager would react in such an embarrassing fashion.

[Letters]

Did you read his post match comments after the game? You go have a look on Arsenal.com and tell me what he is saying is right.....
No I didn't but I'm not sure how that's relevant to this particular discussion which is about an article in which he's saying pretty much exactly what people on here were saying on the night.
Now, because he says it, it's suddenly wrong.

NQ, on the night:


I'm fine with our performance.

I think we were the better team, albeit with Bayern knowing they had already won.

He was pretty drunk, admittedly, but still :lol:

If you want to talk about what Wenger said elsewhere then provide a link and I'll have a look.

[Niall_Quinn]

No I didn't but I'm not sure how that's relevant to this particular discussion which is about an article in which he's saying pretty much exactly what people on here were saying on the night.
Now, because he says it, it's suddenly wrong.

NQ, on the night:



He was pretty drunk, admittedly, but still :lol:

If you want to talk about what Wenger said elsewhere then provide a link and I'll have a look.

You realise, you're using the biggest pisshead on the forum to make your case?

[Letters]

:lol: That is the one weakness in my argument, admittedly.

[Özim]

Some interesting stuff about the Koscielny sending off against Bayern (as well as other stuff, ignore 2nd bit it's irrelevant):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmTBxIVqHOI

Fans just not willing to put their neck out to convince Wenger to leave, I guess that's the problem with Arsenal fans, Wenger seems to have them living in fear and having too much respect for him despite what he says. I'm not sure fans of any other team would be so quiet at this stage. I know people say we need a change etc, but in the end there's just not enough appetite for it, I'd say being also rans is embedded into the Arsenal mentality from top to bottom and in the fan base.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I feel 20% more stupid after watching those fuckwits.

[Özim]

Marcoti is pretty respected, that was the main part really.

He's right about the fans as well, Wenger can stay as long as he wants, who is going to stop him....the fans? It's pretty clear that at Arsenal the fans will turn up regardless and not change their behaviour, therefore nothing will ever change, weird culture at this club.

Kroenke can sit happy earning his millions, Gazidis, Chips can have a good laugh about it all and come out with condascending statements and Wenger can pat himself on a job well done and give himself a nice little well deserved payrise, life is good at the top!

[Xhaka Can’t]

Respected by who? Those twats on the panel? You?

For starters he has no idea how Arsenal manipulate attendance figures. Even when I was still going to matches, people would chuckle amongst themselves when the attendance was announced. It seems particularly more empty now from what I can see on tv. He has not got the first clue as to anything about the fan base.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Zim - there have been two fan protests at the last two home games, there is no indication that this is going to cease, fans are now bringing home banners to the ground....and they are getting pilloried for doing so.

What would you have them do?....Burn Wenger effegies?, plant bombs on the bridges outside the stadiium?, suicide attack on the manager's dug out during match days.

If you're arguing they should stop turning up to match days, well if Wenger stays beyond his current contract...you might just get your wish.

[Özim]

Zim - there have been two fan protests at the last two home games, there is no indication that this is going to cease, fans are now bringing home banners to the ground....and they are getting pilloried for doing so.

What would you have them do?....Burn Wenger effegies?, plant bombs on the bridges outside the stadiium?, suicide attack on the manager's dug out during match days.

If you're arguing they should stop turning up to match days, well if Wenger stays beyond his current contract...you might just get your wish.

I'm not questoning those people, but most basically don't say a word, turn up week in week out on time, there's very little there to make the club and manager stand up and take notice, 200 odd fans they'll probably not be too bothered about.

Empty stadiums would do the trick and let's be honest it wouldn't be that much of a chore for them, the football is awful!

My point is really that the fans (majority) don't have enough of an appetite for change, it's a bit like wanting to win the lottery but not buying a ticket, not gonna happen.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And which of those two protests which happened outside the ground did you attend?

[Power n Glory]

I'm not questoning those people, but most basically don't say a word, turn up week in week out on time, there's very little there to make the club and manager stand up and take notice, 200 odd fans they'll probably not be too bothered about.

Empty stadiums would do the trick and let's be honest it wouldn't be that much of a chore for them, the football is awful!

My point is really that the fans (majority) don't have enough of an appetite for change, it's a bit like wanting to win the lottery but not buying a ticket, not gonna happen.

I've got time for Marcotti and he's right about needing more fans to make their voices heard. There are ways to do it. Protests, coming in 10 minutes late, banners, not attending games, switching off from the games.... there has to be more because if we go silent it will only strengthen Wenger's resolve. There are ways to protest even if you're not there at the Emirates holding a banner or don't want to waste money if you've already bought tickets.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I've got time for Marcotti and he's right about needing more fans to make their voices heard. There are ways to do it. Protests, coming in 10 minutes late, banners, not attending games, switching off from the games.... there has to be more because if we go silent it will only strengthen Wenger's resolve. There are ways to protest even if you're not there at the Emirates holding a banner or don't want to waste money if you've already bought tickets.

It's a comfortable position for us to take though isn't it. I don't know how many people on GW are season ticket holders but I imagine it's at a premium.
I've said I find it bizarre how fans seem to turn up late and not stay till the end, and this is regardless of the circumstance of the match, but then I'm not paying to go every week i may think it's odd/self defeating but it's up to them.

I've always said that even if I did go to games more regularly that I wouldn't protest because I find it undignified and I admit there is a hypocrisy in being happy to let other people do it on my behalf.

So ultimately I don't feel I can question people for that which I'm unwilling to do myself.

[Özim]

And which of those two protests which happened outside the ground did you attend?

I don't go to matches in the 1st place. The protests tend to be people who do go to matches.

[Özim]

I've said I find it bizarre how fans seem to turn up late and not stay till the end, and this is regardless of the circumstance of the match, but then I'm not paying to go every week i may think it's odd/self defeating but it's up to them.

I've always said that even if I did go to games more regularly that I wouldn't protest because I find it undignified and I admit there is a hypocrisy in being happy to let other people do it on my behalf.

So ultimately I don't feel I can question people for that which I'm unwilling to do myself.

I don't understand this point of view to be honest because on that basis nothing will ever change, there's a reason the owners and manager can take the mick and that's because the fans allow it, you can't on the one hand turn up on time every match, never voice your disapproval and on the other want the manager out, it doesn't work it's a bit of a contradiction.

For change to happen you need something to happen, as has been mentioned people not turning up for 10 minutes at the start of the match, people not coming to matches, people making their feelings clear throughout the match as a united group.

If anything it's self defeating turning up all the time and on time saying nothing, because if you want change you can pretty much guarantee it won't happen if people do that. At the end of the day the club is all about profit and if the fans put up with it and don't kick up a fuss, why should they bother changing, they're happy and there's nothing putting any pressure for them to do things differently.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't go to matches in the 1st place. The protests tend to be people who do go to matches.

So?.....the protests are outside the ground, if you feel so strongly why don't you just go to the protests

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't understand this point of view to be honest because on that basis nothing will ever change, there's a reason the owners and manager can take the mick and that's because the fans allow it, you can't on the one hand turn up on time every match, never voice your disapproval and on the other want the manager out, it doesn't work it's a bit of a contradiction.

For change to happen you need something to happen, as has been mentioned people not turning up for 10 minutes at the start of the match, people not coming to matches, people making their feelings clear throughout the match as a united group.

If anything it's self defeating turning up all the time and on time saying nothing, because if you want change you can pretty much guarantee it won't happen if people do that. At the end of the day the club is all about profit and if the fans put up with it and don't kick up a fuss, why should they bother changing, they're happy and there's nothing putting any pressure for them to do things differently.

But your point is that you Zim don't have to lift a finger, it's all up to other people

Not turning up on time and leaving early has nothing to do with protests, i think it's partly to do with transport infrastructure but it's been going on since we went to the Emirates and it happened at Highbury.

I haven't been to an Arsenal game in over a year. That's how i protest.....but equally i'm not minded to tell other people what they should do with their money and their free time.

[Power n Glory]

But you just did even though it's clear there are ways people can get their message across without going to a protest.


So?.....the protests are outside the ground, if you feel so strongly why don't you just go to the protests

The overall point is, if we want change, we can't continue on as if everything is normal.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But you just did even though it's clear there are ways people can get their message across without going to a protest.



The overall point is, if we want change, we can't continue on as if everything is normal.

No my point is i'm not minded to tell other people what to do, but someone else thinks it's ok to tell other people to do something he's not prepared to do himself

I don't care whether Zim goes to the protests or not, but equally i don't think he should be telling other people what they should or shouldn't be doing when he won't put his money where his mouth is but expects other people to.

And apart from not going to games or complaining on here what exactly are you doing to let people know your displeasure?

[Özim]

So?.....the protests are outside the ground, if you feel so strongly why don't you just go to the protests

Well I'm not there anyway filling up the seats and putting money into their bank accounts, if everyone did that they would soon change. Protests are IMO mostly for those who want to turn up for matches but aren't happy, the alternative (the better one IMO) is to stay away.

[Özim]

But your point is that you Zim don't have to lift a finger, it's all up to other people

Not turning up on time and leaving early has nothing to do with protests, i think it's partly to do with transport infrastructure but it's been going on since we went to the Emirates and it happened at Highbury.

I haven't been to an Arsenal game in over a year. That's how i protest.....but equally i'm not minded to tell other people what they should do with their money and their free time.

I don't turn up, if everyone did that there would soon take notice. I'm not saying people should do this that or the other, but if your intent on going to matches but aren't happy then you have to be vocal about it or make it clear you're not. If you turn up on time for every match and don't make a fuss, why would they bother changing?

You can't want change and then not do anything to precipitate it, if you're not happy you have to do something which may work, i.e not turn up, turn up late, demonstrate, make it clear during matches......just something. What's the point in telling your friend your not happy but then sitting there every game as if nothing is wrong?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well I'm not there anyway filling up the seats and putting money into their bank accounts, if everyone did that they would soon change. Protests are IMO mostly for those who want to turn up for matches but aren't happy, the alternative (the better one IMO) is to stay away.

So how often were you going to Arsenal games before you became disillusioned?

Were you ever a season ticket holder for instance?

[Letters]

Actually agree with Zim and said this some time ago.
The stadium holds 60,000, they're not going to care about a couple of hundred people shouting outside the ground.
The only language they understand is money, the only power we have as fans is that they see us as custom. We can't go and support another club - well, maybe a local club - but we can withdraw our custom.
Do that en masse and they'll soon get the message.
Never going to happen but it's the only method of protest which I believe will be effective.

[Niall_Quinn]

Would be nice to be able to afford to go to the games. Not saying I'd go, but it'd be nice to be able to afford that kind of lavish expenditure.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Actually agree with Zim and said this some time ago.
The stadium holds 60,000, they're not going to care about a couple of hundred people shouting outside the ground.
The only language they understand is money, the only power we have as fans is that they see us as custom. We can't go and support another club - well, maybe a local club - but we can withdraw our custom.
Do that en masse and they'll soon get the message.
Never going to happen but it's the only method of protest which I believe will be effective.

But that's not my point, my point is most of us didn't go to games regularly long before Wenger became an issue. So it seems incredibly laughable to make us seem like we are making a big sacrifice from going to one or two games a season to none.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Would be nice to be able to afford to go to the games. Not saying I'd go, but it'd be nice to be able to afford that kind of lavish expenditure.

Precisely, i could afford just about a season ticket but it would impact on other more important things i need to spend on.

But my point is when most of us hardly go anyway, pretending that we are enacting a meaningful boycott and criticising season ticket holders for not being as noble and principled as us seems daft.

[Özim]

So how often were you going to Arsenal games before you became disillusioned?

Were you ever a season ticket holder for instance?

Listen this isn't about me or you, it's a general point about precipitation change, if someone wants change then turning up week in week out on time saying nothing isn't going to make that happen, it will have the opposite effect. The only thing that can make things change is if it's clear to the owner that the gravy train isn't going to carry on if things don't change.

[Özim]

But that's not my point, my point is most of us didn't go to games regularly long before Wenger became an issue. So it seems incredibly laughable to make us seem like we are making a big sacrifice from going to one or two games a season to none.

But we're not just talking about us really, it's a general point about Arsenal fans, particularly those that go to games, if I was an owner only interested in the business side and profits and a couple hundred people demonstrated but I sold 60000 odd tickets every week and made a nice profit I wouldn't bother changing.

Why change a good thing, now you might argue that you have to speculate to accumulate, but there's a risk of course and if you're happy with the situation and profits as they are then again why bother.

[Power n Glory]

But that's not my point, my point is most of us didn't go to games regularly long before Wenger became an issue. So it seems incredibly laughable to make us seem like we are making a big sacrifice from going to one or two games a season to none.

:doh: Who is making out that it's a big sacrifice? It's just making clear what's going to be effective across the board. From those that attend regular games, those that watch on TV, overseas fans....

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Listen this isn't about me or you, it's a general point about precipitation change, if someone wants change then turning up week in week out on time saying nothing isn't going to make that happen, it will have the opposite effect. The only thing that can make things change is if it's clear to the owner that the gravy train isn't going to carry on if things don't change.

And what i'm saying is whilst you can hope that fans will make more of a fuss, very few of us here are in a position to chide them for not doing so.

[Letters]

But that's not my point, my point is most of us didn't go to games regularly long before Wenger became an issue. So it seems incredibly laughable to make us seem like we are making a big sacrifice from going to one or two games a season to none.

I gave up my season ticket in protest / because MrsL told me to*


*delete as appropriate :(

[Letters]

Precisely, i could afford just about a season ticket but it would impact on other more important things i need to spend on.
Cocaine and hookers?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

:doh: Who is making out that it's a big sacrifice? It's just making clear what's going to be effective across the board. From those that attend regular games, those that watch on TV, overseas fans....

No i'm making out that it would be a big sacrifice for people who have had season tickets for years, go every game.....and we are telling "You should do this, you shouldn't do that".....that for me usually invokes three words that i impart to you every now and again.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Cocaine and hookers?

Mainly Cocaine, i just murder the hookers when it comes to payment time.

Funnily enough, no one comes looking for them....kind of sad really

[Özim]

And what i'm saying is whilst you can hope that fans will make more of a fuss, very few of us here are in a position to chide them for not doing so.

Noone's telling them to do anything, all we're saying is if they're not happy they should do something about it to make it better for themselves. If they want to sit there and say nothing that's up to them, not much point complaining about the situation afterwards though because it's not going to change essentially they would be encouraging it to continue.

It might be that the fans that go to matches are over the moon and very happy with what they're getting if so fine, it doesn't appear that way though, but if everyone took your stance and just suffered in silence then they'd have to keep putting up with it week in week out for however long the owners want them to.

[Letters]

Mainly Cocaine, i just murder the hookers when it comes to payment time.

Funnily enough, no one comes looking for them....kind of sad really

:lol:

[Özim]

No i'm making out that it would be a big sacrifice for people who have had season tickets for years, go every game.....and we are telling "You should do this, you shouldn't do that".....that for me usually invokes three words that i impart to you every now and again.

It's a big sacrifice for them to make their feelings known by doing something different to precipitate change they want even though they aren't happy? So are you saying it's better for them that they put up and shut up and suffer in silence because there's no sacrifice involved? I would have thought they are sacrificing their enjoyment for a start (if they're not happy) which I would say is a big thing if going to watch a football match, in addition with the cost of tickets I would assume a few people are having to make sacrifices in their personal lives to afford to go in the 1st place.

[Power n Glory]

No i'm making out that it would be a big sacrifice for people who have had season tickets for years, go every game.....and we are telling "You should do this, you shouldn't do that".....that for me usually invokes three words that i impart to you every now and again.

The bravery on these forums, eh? ;)

Gab made a good point about arriving late every 10 minutes or just deciding for one game not to go. It's a suggestion of how things can be effective and something that needs to be considered if Wenger and the Board continue to ignore the fans.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's a big sacrifice for them to make their feelings known by doing something different to precipitate change they want even though they aren't happy? So are you saying it's better for them that they put up and shut up and suffer in silence because there's no sacrifice? I would have though they are sacrificing their enjoyment for a start (if they're not happy) which I would say is a big thing if going to watch a football match.

You made it clear that the best way to protest is for people not to go to matches....(laughably holding yourself up as a model of the perfect arsenal fan)

And for people who have ritually gone for years, for whom it is a social occasion....to suddenly go from that to not going is a big sacrifice

As for active protest?.....with the best will in the world.....it's not for some people. Do you take to Parliament square with a placard everytime the government of the day does something you find to be a fundamental injustice.

NQ finds government in general a fundamental injustice......by that token he'd be camped out in protest all the time.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The bravery on these forums, eh? ;)

Gab made a good point about arriving late every 10 minutes or just deciding for one game not to go. It's a suggestion of how things can be effective and something that needs to be considered if Wenger and the Board continue to ignore the fans.

I am going for the NSFW approach, whilst i'm replying on the work computer i try and avoid obscenities too much because i've been pulled up before for e-mails and internet useage.

That said i did just joke about murdering sex workers which is surely a 100 times worse....:lol:

And to be fair i didn't watch the Marcotti clip, i am referring to when i have criticised fans for turning up late or leaving early. And although i think it's a pointless thing that's been going on for years....equally i'd have to concede that it's up to them.

[Power n Glory]

I gave up my season ticket in protest / because MrsL told me to*


*delete as appropriate :(

How comes you gave it up in the end? I remember it was a tussle and did everyone else around you start to stop going or have they continued?

[Özim]

You made it clear that the best way to protest is for people not to go to matches....(laughably holding yourself up as a model of the perfect arsenal fan)

And for people who have ritually gone for years, for whom it is a social occasion....to suddenly go from that to not going is a big sacrifice

As for active protest?.....with the best will in the world.....it's not for some people. Do you take to Parliament square with a placard everytime the government of the day does something you find to be a fundamental justice.

NQ finds government in general a fundamental injustice......by that token he'd be camped out in protest all the time.

That is the best way yes, I don't have to make it clear, it's common sense, I'm not saying they have or should do that, I'm saying if they want change then that's the best thing to do although there are other options. I haven't held myself up as a model for anything at all, you asked me questions and I answered, I wasn't speaking about me or you just making a general point.

As I said if they're happy then fine, if they're not though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do absolutely nothing but expect change, some common sense has to come into play, the method you suggest of saying and doing nothing would achieve basically nothing because where's the incentive for the owners or manager to change?

I don't really understand how you expect anything to change if nothing is done at all and everything goes on as normal, it makes no sense.

[Letters]

How comes you gave it up in the end? I remember it was a tussle and did everyone else around you start to stop going or have they continued?

It was a combination of things.
Getting married and MrsL suggesting that the considerable outlay may be better spent.
My dad (who I've been going with since my teens) getting older and less able to go regularly
A general ennui with the modern game and a dwindling interest.

I don't know if the others around me are still there because I'm not :lol: I suspect most are as it was all a bit "prawn sandwich" where I was, for many of them I suspect it was a social thing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That is the best way yes, I don't have to make it clear, it's common sense, I'm not saying they have or should do that, I'm saying if they want change then that's the best thing to do although there are other options. I haven't held myself up as a model for anything at all, you asked me questions and I answered, I wasn't speaking about me or you just making a general point.

As I said if they're happy then fine, if they're not though it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to do absolutely nothing but expect change, some common sense has to come into play, the method you suggest of saying and doing nothing would achieve basically nothing because where's the incentive for the owners or manager to change?

I don't really understand how you expect anything to change if nothing is done at all and everything goes on as normal, it makes no sense.

I'm not making suggestions at all, i haven't gone to Arsenal games regularly enough to feel i'm in a position to tell people what they should or should not be doing.

I even accept it's hypocritical to get exasperated with people who have perennially left the ground early.

As letters has stated below it's as much a social thing as anything.

What i don't like is fans being held culpable for things not changing, it shouldn't be inclement on fans in the first place.

Now would I like to see if Wenger stays people not taking up their season tickets?? Yes but i'm not going to criticise people who do renew.

[Power n Glory]

I am going for the NSFW approach, whilst i'm replying on the work computer i try and avoid obscenities too much because i've been pulled up before for e-mails and internet useage.

That said i did just joke about murdering sex workers which is surely a 100 times worse....:lol:

And to be fair i didn't watch the Marcotti clip, i am referring to when i have criticised fans for turning up late or leaving early. And although i think it's a pointless thing that's been going on for years....equally i'd have to concede that it's up to them.

Ok, so you've noticed the slight hypocrisy?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ok, so you've noticed the slight hypocrisy?

I find it frustrating that they do that, because i find it rather pointless and self defeating

Equally i accept it's frustrating for people on here that the fans aren't making more of a fuss than they are.

But is it for me to tell them what they should or should not do? No.

[Power n Glory]

It was a combination of things.
Getting married and MrsL suggesting that the considerable outlay may be better spent.
My dad (who I've been going with since my teens) getting older and less able to go regularly
A general ennui with the modern game and a dwindling interest.

I don't know if the others around me are still there because I'm not :lol: I suspect most are as it was all a bit "prawn sandwich" where I was, for many of them I suspect it was a social thing.

Fair enough. The slow decline. I think that's happening across the board where fans just drop off one by one and lose interest. That's a dangerous place to be for the club and owners. They won't notice the change overnight but by the time they've noticed they may have pissed people off so much they have turned certain fans off for good.

[Niall_Quinn]

Precisely, i could afford just about a season ticket but it would impact on other more important things i need to spend on.

But my point is when most of us hardly go anyway, pretending that we are enacting a meaningful boycott and criticising season ticket holders for not being as noble and principled as us seems daft.

The money still pours into the club. Myself, family, friends, every time my son gets any sort of gift it has an Arsenal badge stamped on it and that "official merchandising" holographic tag. Which means it also comes with an Arsenal price tag - ouch! How many kids are on their mailing list I wonder?

I notice they do an excellent (and I mean excellent) job of marketing to the kids. The stuff the club sends is genuinely decent and excited hands tear open the boxes and envelopes. The membership pack is pretty impressive if you are 9 years old and understand nothing of the cynical underpinnings of life. And that's how it should be, of course.

But anyway, if you don't go to games there are still ways to boycott. But would you want to do that to a 9 year old?

These marketing bastards know the score and they pick their targets with precision.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I haven't bought an Arsenal replica top in ten years, and i don't buy club merchandise in general.....though that's more of a "most of it is cheaply made toot" rather than a protest against the situation. If Wenger goes, and the Board suddenly realises it's obligation to it's fan base i'm not going to go back to the club shop.

[Niall_Quinn]

And what i'm saying is whilst you can hope that fans will make more of a fuss, very few of us here are in a position to chide them for not doing so.

Don't know about that. Can you not speak up when the complacency of another person is impacting your relationship with a club you have supported since before they were born? Is it not okay to get frustrated with someone who is a right mug but can't see it? And that's to assume these people even have an opinion on the matter to disagree with. I don't think a lot of the home fan base has much of a football opinion at all. When asked to cheer they shut their mouths. When asked to protest they scuttle to their designated seats, and shut their mouths. I think I'd be a stranger at a home match now. I wouldn't understand the polite and sanitised environment or the shiny people that have replaced what I remember, warts and all. Seems to me we are looking at one element of the "new" Arsenal in the hope it will protest against another element. But they appear to be the same thing, on the surface at least. Arsenal Fav TV and Twatter and all those places have good points and bad points, but what they inevitably do is inflate the voice of minorities who make their demands in what I perceive to be a bemused majority wondering what all the fuss is about.

[Niall_Quinn]

I haven't bought an Arsenal replica top in ten years, and i don't buy club merchandise in general.....though that's more of a "most of it is cheaply made toot" rather than a protest against the situation. If Wenger goes, and the Board suddenly realises it's obligation to it's fan base i'm not going to go back to the club shop.

Neither have I, personally. Must be longer than 10 years in fact. And it wasn't cheap stuff back then. The shirt was and still is decent. The stuff now though :haha:

And five times the price.

It's not just Arsenal. Marketers and bankers have broken the world. Subverted it. Made it cheap, nasty and just about as discriminatory as it is possible to be. You have money? Welcome. No money? Fuck off. Some will say it has always been like that, maybe so. But there were softer edges and some degree of overlap. Now it's cynical, sharp, binary. What we are seeing at Arsenal is a reflection straight from the mirror of Globalist Britain PLC. The reason for the fury is football was supposed to be the remedy, the escape. Now it's a reinforcer. Where's my fury supposed to go?

Where's the cat?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Don't know about that. Can you not speak up when the complacency of another person is impacting your relationship with a club you have supported since before they were born? Is it not okay to get frustrated with someone who is a right mug but can't see it? And that's to assume these people even have an opinion on the matter to disagree with. I don't think a lot of the home fan base has much of a football opinion at all. When asked to cheer they shut their mouths. When asked to protest they scuttle to their designated seats, and shut their mouths. I think I'd be a stranger at a home match now. I wouldn't understand the polite and sanitised environment or the shiny people that have replaced what I remember, warts and all. Seems to me we are looking at one element of the "new" Arsenal in the hope it will protest against another element. But they appear to be the same thing, on the surface at least. Arsenal Fav TV and Twatter and all those places have good points and bad points, but what they inevitably do is inflate the voice of minorities who make their demands in what I perceive to be a bemused majority wondering what all the fuss is about.

But it all boils down to one thing, it's clear as daylight Wenger is inept....even in a business sense for the club......the club's profit seems to have mainly come from TV deals.

10-2 aggregate defeats against Bayern Munich are not signs of progression, they aren't even signs of stagnation....i don't think we are even stagnating anymore we are regressing.

Why is it then incumbent on fans to take up time they'd rather be spending in the pub, or with their spouses and kids holding giant placards, being sworn at and threatened by fellow fans who are cult of personality types to state the bloody obvious.

[Niall_Quinn]

You made it clear that the best way to protest is for people not to go to matches....(laughably holding yourself up as a model of the perfect arsenal fan)

And for people who have ritually gone for years, for whom it is a social occasion....to suddenly go from that to not going is a big sacrifice

As for active protest?.....with the best will in the world.....it's not for some people. Do you take to Parliament square with a placard everytime the government of the day does something you find to be a fundamental injustice.

NQ finds government in general a fundamental injustice......by that token he'd be camped out in protest all the time.

It's the opposite. I don't want to consume their product. No, no, no, no, no. But they don't understand that word. In their soapy suds and lemon sparkle brains all they hear is, yes please. The very act of protest would be to legitimise them. I ignore them in every way, shape, form up to the point where I could actually end up in prison. And if more people did that there would be no need for protests because the target of the protest would simply dissolve into the fantasy that it actually is. The illusion would disappear. But hit the streets shouting "government out!" and if somebody walks up to you and asks, who are you protesting against, you answer... DOH!

With Arsenal, a while back, I guess I kidded myself I was somehow involved with the club. The owners played up that illusion too. Oh sure, the fans are important. Because they needed us a lot more back then, before the marketers got a free pass to subvert everything they surveyed. Slowly reality has emerged. But anyway, I wanted to consume the product and in some ways I still do. But that'll change pretty fast when Wenger announces his new contract. I'd have too much self respect to stick around after that.

[Niall_Quinn]

But it all boils down to one thing, it's clear as daylight Wenger is inept....even in a business sense for the club......the club's profit seems to have mainly come from TV deals.

10-2 aggregate defeats against Bayern Munich are not signs of progression, they aren't even signs of stagnation....i don't think we are even stagnating anymore we are regressing.

Why is it then incumbent on fans to take up time they'd rather be spending in the pub, or with their spouses and kids holding giant placards, being sworn at and threatened by fellow fans who are cult of personality types to state the bloody obvious.

I guess because you hope they are the last element of the club that gives a damn about more than the money. But if they don't give a damn about anything at all - which is what seems to be the case for the majority - then yes. What you end up with is a small group shouting, "Charge! Over the top!", and the majority going, "Not really, I can afford it."

All talk anyway. Big protests and empty stadiums won't be happening. The tactic of the majority is to try to get the media onside but that's a damp squib too. Wenger has covered all his bases, you can't fault him for that.

We don't sit back and do nothing because we aren't enraged, or because we don't want to see major change. We eventually sit back because holding back the ocean is a pretty fruitless task. And that leaves resentment and anger, and that brings us back to GW.

WENGER OUT!