Match Reaction vs Everton (away).

[McNamara That Ghost...]

A heathy dose of brilliance and insanity.

Nice to give Koeman a good pumping though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger OUT!

[Marc Overmars]

Easiest win of the season.

Koeman. :lol:

Bye.

[Niall_Quinn]

Get rid of Wenger today. Don't fuck about, just get it done. Bring in a decent manager and convince our star players to give it one more contract. That's the smart move. Don't let this drag on to January or the summer and then hand this turd money so he can buy more Xhakas.

And don't give this bloke any credit for the win today. It's his job to pick a sane team and he shouldn't get extra credit for doing the basics of his job properly for the first time this season. Even then he subs Lacazette. Just can't help himself.

[Dicks and chicks]

Should've been 10-0

[Power n Glory]

Good game. Wasn't a waste of time for once. Ozil, Lacazette and Sanchez playing together for once and all getting on the score sheet or setting up a goal.

Hopefully Wenger will soon figure out that we shouldn't be playing Xhaka and Ramsey in the middle. Wilshere and Coquelin looked decent coming off the bench.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Fuck off Koeman! Guy has been a prick to us for years so it'd be fitting if it's defeat against us that spells his fate!

Impressive performance offensively - the talent in the squad has always been there to at least challenge for the league..... we just need a better manager to do that.

In the glory of the win I hope we don't lose sight of how abysmal the two goals we conceded were. Could do with working on our finishing while we're at it - it really should have been a cricket score.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

AOL up front (somebody else came up with this). :bow:

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Good game. Wasn't a waste of time for once. Ozil, Lacazette and Sanchez playing together for once and all getting on the score sheet or setting up a goal.

Hopefully Wenger will soon figure out that we shouldn't be playing Xhaka and Ramsey in the middle. Wilshere and Coquelin looked decent coming off the bench.

Despite the fact that I'd be classified as a hater, I've got to say I've been impressed with Wilshere lately. Some impressive performances worthy of the hope we once had in him.

Whether that's because he realises that it's his "last chance" to make something or he's doing a "Theo" and playing well to get a new contract remains to be seen though.

I still however don't think we should give him better opportunities until he signs a new contract! We've already got too many players taking the club for a ride!

[Gooner23]

Who'd have thought picking your best forwards would result in the best attacking performance of the season..

Centre mid just doesn't function and against a better team we'd be in trouble. In fairness Xhaka improved as the game went on but he's cost us too many goals now. Can't fault Ramsey's workrate, he's just completely brainless.

[Master Splinter]

I'm not sure I've been more annoyed with such an easy win before.

Should have been 0-3 up before they scored. Should have been 1-6 at half-time. Should have been 1-10 after they went down to ten men. Somehow a 0-15 game game was 2-5. They scored from virtually their only two attempts at our goal, with the second being a clownfest at the back. WUMger with the mind-boggling subs again. Take Lacazette off just after he scored and Ozil after his best game this decade and bring on two more central midfielders against a woeful ten-man team who are basically begging to be battered to a miserable pulp. Wenger has crossed the line today and I'll be the first to say it: Wenger OUT.


More importantly though: Koeman :haha: :haha:.

[Niall_Quinn]

Haven't heard anything from Deeney about this weekend's results so far, but I'm keeping my ear open.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Great to get 5 goals and an away win against a team most were confident would finish ahead of us this season.

Happy to see Per remain and I've found the reluctance to use him since last season strange. Wilshere twice over hit through balls but he sees the run and isn't afraid to attempt the pass. Still underwhelmed by Xhaka.

Not too bothered about their second goal as that is a mistake Cech and Monreal have enough brains and nous not to repeat every week.

[Niall_Quinn]

Everton were in it until the sending off. According to Koeman. No wonder he's struggling.

[Power n Glory]

Despite the fact that I'd be classified as a hater, I've got to say I've been impressed with Wilshere lately. Some impressive performances worthy of the hope we once had in him.

Whether that's because he realises that it's his "last chance" to make something or he's doing a "Theo" and playing well to get a new contract remains to be seen though.

I still however don't think we should give him better opportunities until he signs a new contract! We've already got too many players taking the club for a ride!

I'm not with this idea that we shouldn't play a player if he hasn't signed a deal when we're into the last year of his contract. Especially when considering the position we're in. The way we let players run contracts down pisses me off but I wouldn't want us to reward Wilshere with a contract for just sitting on the bench. He has to earn it. Also, I'm against Wenger not picking the best team for the job because he's playing politics. If it's a choice between Xhaka and Wilshere under current circumstances, I'm picking Wilshere every time.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I'm not sure I've been more annoyed with such an easy win before.

Should have been 0-3 up before they scored. Should have been 1-6 at half-time. Should have been 1-10 after they went down to ten men. Somehow a 0-15 game game was 2-5. They scored from virtually their only two attempts at our goal, with the second being a clownfest at the back. WUMger with the mind-boggling subs again. Take Lacazette off just after he scored and Ozil after his best game this decade and bring on two more central midfielders against a woeful ten-man team who are basically begging to be battered to a miserable pulp. Wenger has crossed the line today and I'll be the first to say it: Wenger OUT.


More importantly though: Koeman :haha: :haha:.
Well NQ said Wenger out first page me old mucker...

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I'm not with this idea that we shouldn't play a player if he hasn't signed a deal when we're into the last year of his contract. Especially when considering the position we're in. The way we let players run contracts down pisses me off but I wouldn't want us to reward Wilshere with a contract for just sitting on the bench. He has to earn it. Also, I'm against Wenger not picking the best team for the job because he's playing politics. If it's a choice between Xhaka and Wilshere under current circumstances, I'm picking Wilshere every time.

In truth Xhaka should have probably been dropped a number of games ago but such is our options...there he is making the same mistakes game after game.

[GP]

a team most were confident would finish ahead of us this season.



Uhhh

[Niall_Quinn]

In truth Xhaka should have probably been dropped a number of games ago but such is our options...there he is making the same mistakes game after game.

Dropped and taken to one side by a competent coach who could teach him the basics of this league. But he hasn't been dropped and we don't have any coaches like that.

[Master Splinter]

Last season, WUMger used Xhaka sparingly early on even when he had some good games.

Now he's a liability, he's become undroppable.

Wenger is batshit, basically.

[Power n Glory]

Dropped and taken to one side by a competent coach who could teach him the basics of this league. But he hasn't been dropped and we don't have any coaches like that.

If he needs teaching of the basics for that sort of situation then we are in real trouble. At this level it shouldn't take a coach to tell him to not get caught in possession deep in your own half. He needs dropping and he'll know exactly why he's been dropped. If a player can't work out what to do in that sort of situation, especially a central midfielder, he has no business playing at this level.

[Niall_Quinn]

If he needs teaching of the basics for that sort of situation then we are in real trouble. At this level it shouldn't take a coach to tell him to not get caught in possession deep in your own half. He needs dropping and he'll know exactly why he's been dropped. If a player can't work out what to do in that sort of situation, especially a central midfielder, he has no business playing at this level.

35 mill in the hole, so we might as well try to train him up.

[selassie]

Caught the last 20 minutes or so, we looked pretty good from what I saw of it though we were playing against 10 men. You never know which Arsenal will turn up so today's result isn't entirely surprising.

[Power n Glory]

35 mill in the hole, so we might as well try to train him up.

Wenger will tell him that he was fouled. ;) If Xhaka has any sort of professional pride, he'd learn not to get caught like that. How long do we have to potty train? Certain basics you shouldn't have to be told what to do and if caught out you should know how to correct it as a player. As coach, Wenger should show Xhaka that the sloppy play is unacceptable and drop him. He shouldn't have to go through training drills with the guy and analyse endless footage of similar scenarios. He's a lost cause if we do.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger will tell him that he was fouled. ;) If Xhaka has any sort of professional pride, he'd learn not to get caught like that. How long do we have to potty train? Certain basics you shouldn't have to be told what to do and if caught out you should know how to correct it as a player. As coach, Wenger should show Xhaka that the sloppy play is unacceptable and drop him. He shouldn't have to go through training drills with the guy and analyse endless footage of similar scenarios. He's a lost cause if we do.

No, I agree. But Xhaka's not the only one guilty of infuriating sloppiness. It ranges all the way down from Alexis through Cech - moments where a bit of composure and thought would make all the difference. Because the majority of the squad is actually decent, it's a constant war between the complacency and the individual ability. Sometimes the talent wins out, other times we blow our own feet off with both barrels. It won't change for as long as we have a guy who doesn't care about that stuff in charge.

[Power n Glory]

No, I agree. But Xhaka's not the only one guilty of infuriating sloppiness. It ranges all the way down from Alexis through Cech - moments where a bit of composure and thought would make all the difference. Because the majority of the squad is actually decent, it's a constant war between the complacency and the individual ability. Sometimes the talent wins out, other times we blow our own feet off with both barrels. It won't change for as long as we have a guy who doesn't care about that stuff in charge.

We had sloppy moments and players need a good kick up the backside. However, Xhaka is someone I have no hope for. It's not just sloppy play, it's a lack of quality too. He's so one footed that he can't use his right foot at all. Even the stupid foul he committed was down to him having to use his left foot to lunge in across the player instead of trying to win the ball with his right foot which would have seen him make more contact with the ball instead of the going right through the player.

He's slow, not mobile, can't tackle, questionable decision making, heavy feet....looks more and more like a dud signing.

[Niall_Quinn]

We had sloppy moments and players need a good kick up the backside. However, Xhaka is someone I have no hope for. It's not just sloppy play, it's a lack of quality too. He's so one footed that he can't use his right foot at all. Even the stupid foul he committed was down to him having to use his left foot to lunge in across the player instead of trying to win the ball with his right foot which would have seen him make more contact with the ball instead of the going right through the player.

He's slow, not mobile, can't tackle, questionable decision making, heavy feet....looks more and more like a dud signing.

Our super advanced stats package say differently. How many subs have you made?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

http://i68.tinypic.com/xckwnq.jpg

Bellend.

[Cripps]

Despite the fact that I'd be classified as a hater, I've got to say I've been impressed with Wilshere lately. Some impressive performances worthy of the hope we once had in him.

Whether that's because he realises that it's his "last chance" to make something or he's doing a "Theo" and playing well to get a new contract remains to be seen though.

I still however don't think we should give him better opportunities until he signs a new contract! We've already got too many players taking the club for a ride!

He'll do well until he gets a new contract then his form will go downhill.

[Cripps]

Only we can score 5 and still embarrass ourselves in the process:lol:

Nevertheless, a win at goodison :whacky:

[Cripps]

Oh and koeman:haha:

[Power n Glory]

Our super advanced stats package say differently. How many subs have you made?

:lol:

Besides Xhaka and Ramsey, Wenger's subs, it was a solid performance. We looked up for the challenge. We could have scored more.

[Niall_Quinn]

http://i68.tinypic.com/xckwnq.jpg

Bellend.

Did Rooooonnnnneeeeeeeehhhhhh get a touch in the second half? Totally fucking anonymous nothing player in the true sense. But let the myth roll on.

[dostoy]

Arsenal were marginally better than a pathetic team whose manager WILL be sacked very soon.

The ONLY way to get Wenger out is to lose matches and Arsenal will lose a lot more matches this season.

The only objective this season is to get Wenger out and he might still leave next summer.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I'm not with this idea that we shouldn't play a player if he hasn't signed a deal when we're into the last year of his contract. Especially when considering the position we're in. The way we let players run contracts down pisses me off but I wouldn't want us to reward Wilshere with a contract for just sitting on the bench. He has to earn it. Also, I'm against Wenger not picking the best team for the job because he's playing politics. If it's a choice between Xhaka and Wilshere under current circumstances, I'm picking Wilshere every time.

I can tolerate it for a world class talent like Alexis or even Ozil if her performs like he did today but Jack unfortunately isn't as good, nor does he have the bank of goodwill for the club to put up with any nonsense.

The problem essentially is, why should the club give Jack the game time if he's ultimately going to piss off somewhere else if he actually ends up playing himself into some type of decent form after it all? Despite his PR "kiss the badge" stuff, by all accounts he's been pissed off with the club for not giving him chances this and last season, so there's no chance of him staying if there's decent interest for him.

The trick is to have capable negotiators who can convince him to sign a deal on reasonable money with clauses & triggers for pay rises when he does perform (goals + appearances). We're already going to chuck away £100 million in talent next window and so the last thing we need is to chuck away another £40 million on a talented performing ENGLISH CM, which he would be provided he recaptures his form. Sign a contract Jack and then you can get a start.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsenal were marginally better than a pathetic team whose manager WILL be sacked very soon.

The ONLY way to get Wenger out is to lose matches and Arsenal will lose a lot more matches this season.

The only objective this season is to get Wenger out and he might still leave next summer.

Oh do one.

[Letters]

Oh do one.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

I can tolerate it for a world class talent like Alexis or even Ozil if her performs like he did today but Jack unfortunately isn't as good, nor does he have the bank of goodwill for the club to put up with any nonsense.

The problem essentially is, why should the club give Jack the game time if he's ultimately going to piss off somewhere else if he actually ends up playing himself into some type of decent form after it all? Despite his PR "kiss the badge" stuff, by all accounts he's been pissed off with the club for not giving him chances this and last season, so there's no chance of him staying if there's decent interest for him.

The trick is to have capable negotiators who can convince him to sign a deal on reasonable money with clauses & triggers for pay rises when he does perform (goals + appearances). We're already going to chuck away £100 million in talent next window and so the last thing we need is to chuck away another £40 million on a talented performing ENGLISH CM, which he would be provided he recaptures his form. Sign a contract Jack and then you can get a start.

You're putting spite and politics ahead of football and what's needed for a performance. It boils down to how much more bullshit performances you can stomach from the midfield.

It's a catch 22. Why should the club play him if he hasn't signed a contract? Because Wenger should live by what he preaches. Wenger says a player should be committed regardless of the contract situation. It works both ways. For this one last season we need to put our best foot forward.

[Cripps]

Did we actually hit 5 past everton :faint:

[Penguin]

I can tolerate it for a world class talent like Alexis or even Ozil if her performs like he did today but Jack unfortunately isn't as good, nor does he have the bank of goodwill for the club to put up with any nonsense.

The problem essentially is, why should the club give Jack the game time if he's ultimately going to piss off somewhere else if he actually ends up playing himself into some type of decent form after it all? Despite his PR "kiss the badge" stuff, by all accounts he's been pissed off with the club for not giving him chances this and last season, so there's no chance of him staying if there's decent interest for him.

The trick is to have capable negotiators who can convince him to sign a deal on reasonable money with clauses & triggers for pay rises when he does perform (goals + appearances). We're already going to chuck away £100 million in talent next window and so the last thing we need is to chuck away another £40 million on a talented performing ENGLISH CM, which he would be provided he recaptures his form. Sign a contract Jack and then you can get a start.

We're not in a healthy enough situation to do that. If we had a decent first choice midfield then maybe, but Xhaka and Ramsey are hopeless. It's a serious problem now and we're throwing away games directly because of them. It nearly happened again today. We'd be cutting off our nose to spite our face if we stick Wilshere in the reserves now.

I'm not saying that Jack is the answer but frankly he can't be worse than Xhaka.

[Letters]

Did we actually hit 5 past everton :faint:

We've got an average squad and an awful manager so I doubt it.
If we had a genius like Klopp in charge we'd be doing much better, which is why they're so far ahead of us.

[Ralpheroo72]

Everton lacked cojones

[Niall_Quinn]

We've got an average squad and an awful manager so I doubt it.
If we had a genius like Klopp in charge we'd be doing much better, which is why they're so far ahead of us.

If Klopp can't challenge for a title he'll be out, and he won't get a decade to get things right. So let's not pretend Wenger and Klopp can be compared. Klopp might fail, Wenger already has. Klopp might succeed, Wenger has no chance. Wenger can only ever be defended by looking at each of his fucked-up seasons in isolation. String them together and you see what an epic failure and a laughing stock the bloke is. Far bigger a fool than Klopp, or just about any other manager, could be.

[Cripps]

How useless was cech today:lol:

Guy has been a disappointment. Also would be nice for him to dive the right way during a penalty before he leaves us.

[Cripps]

If Klopp can't challenge for a title he'll be out, and he won't get a decade to get things right. So let's not pretend Wenger and Klopp can be compared. Klopp might fail, Wenger already has. Klopp might succeed, Wenger has no chance. Wenger can only ever be defended by looking at each of his fucked-up seasons in isolation. String them together and you see what an epic failure and a laughing stock the bloke is. Far bigger a fool than Klopp, or just about any other manager, could be.

If Wenger was in charge of liverpool they'd finish 10th. If klopp was here we'd win the league.

[GP]

Wow you're dumb.

[Cripps]

I don't expect basic, unsophisticated people with inferior intelligence to understand.

[Özim]

We've got an average squad and an awful manager so I doubt it.
If we had a genius like Klopp in charge we'd be doing much better, which is why they're so far ahead of us.

Give it a rest will you, Everton are absolute rubbish this season, everyone is beating them, if you think this is some sort of proof we're not average you're sadly deluded, 3 of our goals came when they were down to 10 men on top of that.

We won yesterday, but considering how Everton have been doing it's no gret surprise, results this season have not been great overall, neither have performances.

[GP]

gret win. enjoyed that.

[Letters]

gret win. enjoyed that.

Me too. Shame not all Arsenal "fans" did.

[Letters]

If Wenger was in charge of liverpool they'd finish 10th. If klopp was here we'd win the league.

Can't argue with scientific "facts" like that :good:

[Letters]

Give it a rest will you, Everton are absolute rubbish this season, everyone is beating them, if you think this is some sort of proof we're not average you're sadly deluded.
You are correct, for once. It isn't. How we did the last 3 seasons is proof of that :good:

[selassie]

You're putting spite and politics ahead of football and what's needed for a performance. It boils down to how much more bullshit performances you can stomach from the midfield.

It's a catch 22. Why should the club play him if he hasn't signed a contract? Because Wenger should live by what he preaches. Wenger says a player should be committed regardless of the contract situation. It works both ways. For this one last season we need to put our best foot forward.

I agree and I think based on yesterday's performances from them Wenger should take the hit and keep both of them until the summer and then lose them both on a free.

Make no mistake, without those two performing at the level they did yesterday we are a very average side, Iwobi and Welbeck are no replacements for these guys, if we want to replace them properly then it's going to take big money, no "projects" or "internal solutions".

I accept that this performance was against a woeful Everton team but Sanchez and to a lesser extent Ozil have proved what they are capable of when they up their game.

[Özim]

You are correct, for once. It isn't. How we did the last 3 seasons is proof of that :good:

Quite the opposite, we've been awful in the last 3 seasons, so it doesn't prove that at all.

[Letters]

Quite the opposite, we've been awful in the last 3 seasons, so it doesn't prove that at all.

3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup.

Average :bow:
Awful manager :bow:

[Özim]

Average :bow:
Awful manager :bow:

What you fail to add in is any context, in none of those seasons have we been anywhere near the title, in addition other teams imploding were more of a factor than our great performances for us to end up in those positions.

So you're spot on with the comment about our mediocrity.

[Letters]

There doesn't have to be any context. In terms of the PL we have not been average, if you understand what average actually means.
Over the course of a season you pretty much end up where you deserve. The season we finished 2nd was because of Spurs' amusing capitulation. So fine, let's say we really should have finished 3rd. That still isn't average.

[selassie]

There doesn't have to be any context. In terms of the PL we have not been average, if you understand what average actually means.
Over the course of a season you pretty much end up where you deserve. The season we finished 2nd was because of Spurs' amusing capitulation. So fine, let's say we really should have finished 3rd. That still isn't average.

We had a poor season that year Letters, you can dress it up anyway you like but we capitulated after Christmas. The fact that all of our traditional rivals were all in crisis made it even worse, we had little to no pressure that season and the league was there for the taking. We stuffed it big time, we were top going into the New Year too.

What made it worse was we were a distant 2nd, it was digusting.

[Niall_Quinn]

Me too. Shame not all Arsenal "fans" did.

Uh oh - check this out. Letters is doing a Wenger.

Well let me clear it up for you Arsene.

Great win, loved it. Entertaining, some great goals, enjoyed it.

Now get the fuck out of our club you cunt! Because 3 games a season that are worth the watch is not good enough for a club like Arsenal. Any "real" fan, as opposed to money-grubbing, seat-hugging cunt, would know that.

And why did you sub Lacazette?

[Letters]

We had a poor season that year Letters, you can dress it up anyway you like but we capitulated after Christmas. The fact that all of our traditional rivals were all in crisis made it even worse, we had little to no pressure that season and the league was there for the taking. We stuffed it big time, we were top going into the New Year too.

What made it worse was we were a distant 2nd, it was digusting.

Agreed on all counts. But if we had an "average" squad and an "awful" manager, as Zim maintains, then we wouldn't be finishing anywhere near the top 4.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree and I think based on yesterday's performances from them Wenger should take the hit and keep both of them until the summer and then lose them both on a free.

Make no mistake, without those two performing at the level they did yesterday we are a very average side, Iwobi and Welbeck are no replacements for these guys, if we want to replace them properly then it's going to take big money, no "projects" or "internal solutions".

I accept that this performance was against a woeful Everton team but Sanchez and to a lesser extent Ozil have proved what they are capable of when they up their game.

Everyone is saying Everton were woeful, didn't look up for it, were a mess tactically, were second best at everything. It's odd, because that's usually us. Worse than average. But you'd never know it to listen to the Wenger brigade this morning. Arsene FC, Founded 22 Oct 2017. If only they could reset Ozil's and Alexis' contracts in the same way they reset the clock on Wenger's history. BUT, mathematically, based on where we collapse to every season, we are above average. Nice one Wenger!

Meanwhile, our internal solution is gearing up to part the Red Sea. Jack's back! The man to lead us to the promised land. Fans are buying this, almost like they were born yesterday.

[Niall_Quinn]

3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup.

Average :bow:
Awful manager :bow:

Bloody awful manager. As we saw again yesterday.

[selassie]

Agreed on all counts. But if we had an "average" squad and an "awful" manager, as Zim maintains, then we wouldn't be finishing anywhere near the top 4.

I'm not going to get involved with yours and Zim's personal beef...but I do see where you are both coming from and I'm not sitting on the fence either! :lol:

We have an above average squad/team and Wenger in the grand scheme of things is an above average manager but IMO we should be aiming a lot higher both in terms of the quality of our manager and the make up of our team. We all know this. We know what we are going to get from both the manager and team and given our resources our performances are average. We should be challenging for the title every single season, there is no two ways about it.

[Letters]

We have an above average squad/team and Wenger in the grand scheme of things is an above average manager but IMO we should be aiming a lot higher both in terms of the quality of our manager and the make up of our team. We all know this. We know what we are going to get from both the manager and team and given our resources our performances are average. We should be challenging for the title every single season, there is no two ways about it.
Agreed. And that is a more sensible viewpoint than Zim's nonsense hyperbole.
We SHOULD be challenging for the title every year although it's worth remembering that it's only Wenger's time with us which has created that expectation level - read Fever Pitch for more details.
This is the Wenger Paradox as I will keep calling it till it catches on. He is the reason we have this expectation level to challenge for titles and also the reason we don't.

[Letters]

Bloody awful manager. As we saw again yesterday.

Yeah. I wish we had a genius like Klopp :(

[Özim]

Agreed on all counts. But if we had an "average" squad and an "awful" manager, as Zim maintains, then we wouldn't be finishing anywhere near the top 4.

The manager is awful, dress it up anyway you like but there's a reason we are where we are and that we have regressed despite the huge resources, stability that no other club has had and all the resources to succeed, his decisions, his tactics, his signings, his failure to accept the important of leadership, the fact he plays players in the wrong positions, doesn't allow proper coaching, make poor subsitutions and picks inappropriate lineups, his failure to deal with contracts and the list goes on.

Not the suqads fault it's not all that great, it's the managers insistence on not wanting to do the logical thing like most other manager does. Other managers take risks, this can mean you end up higher up one seasona and lower the next, Wenger changes next to nothing, so this allows him to maintain a similar level but not for us to progress.

He's averse to risk and this creates stability, but for the fans he delivers some of the worst entertainment pound for pound. I'd take coming 8th in a season if it meant we went into a new season with unpredictablity and hope it could be different or perhaps that we might have an exciting sumer chasing and signing some decent players, or even if it meant we produced some glorious performances where we wipe the floor with the opposition, rather than this almost constant level where games are broing 99% of the time and performances produced are the bare minimum to get a result.

Yes we in games, but most of the time there's very little pleasure to be had from these wins because in the end we're unconvincing and deliver a substandard experience. The self proclaimed entertainer has forgotten what entertainment actually is but still thinks he delivers it by the bucketful, it's frankly embarassing, as is the way he just sweeps regular humiliations under the carpet like they never happened.

[Özim]

Agreed. And that is a more sensible viewpoint than Zim's nonsense hyperbole.
We SHOULD be challenging for the title every year although it's worth remembering that it's only Wenger's time with us which has created that expectation level - read Fever Pitch for more details.
This is the Wenger Paradox as I will keep calling it till it catches on. He is the reason we have this expectation level to challenge for titles and also the reason we don't.

No Wenger's time with us has us expecting to come 4th and crash out of the CL at the last 16 every year, absolutely noone expects us to win those things. We use to win more before he arrived in fact.

What has made our expectations higher is the prices of tickets, the fact we built a new stadium and were promised a world class team to compete with the best. Wenger neither invested his own money nor raised our expectations, the amount of money we charge and have did, historically we're one of the biggest clubs in England and logically that means people expect success, just like they did at Man U before the won the title in the 90s.

You love to hype up Wenger, but he's really not the reason at all, the guy is getting a huge salary from what he's doing, which is also something he enjoys, he's not some selfless saint who we should bow to, the guy has done very well out of this and it's suited him to stay in the job, he doesn't care what the fans say or think in the slightest and if anything tries to dampen expectations by saying coming 4th is a good season.

[Power n Glory]

What you fail to add in is any context, in none of those seasons have we been anywhere near the title, in addition other teams imploding were more of a factor than our great performances for us to end up in those positions.

So you're spot on with the comment about our mediocrity.

God knows why you entertain this conversation. :lol: Letters is lost.

[Özim]

God knows why you entertain this conversation. :lol: Letters is lost.

You make a good point :lol:

[selassie]

Everyone is saying Everton were woeful, didn't look up for it, were a mess tactically, were second best at everything. It's odd, because that's usually us. Worse than average. But you'd never know it to listen to the Wenger brigade this morning. Arsene FC, Founded 22 Oct 2017. If only they could reset Ozil's and Alexis' contracts in the same way they reset the clock on Wenger's history. BUT, mathematically, based on where we collapse to every season, we are above average. Nice one Wenger!

Meanwhile, our internal solution is gearing up to part the Red Sea. Jack's back! The man to lead us to the promised land. Fans are buying this, almost like they were born yesterday.

:lol:

You know my thoughts on Wenger and his mismanagement of the team over the past what 5 or 6 seasons.

I won't him gone and I want the slate wiped clean!

[selassie]

Agreed. And that is a more sensible viewpoint than Zim's nonsense hyperbole.
We SHOULD be challenging for the title every year although it's worth remembering that it's only Wenger's time with us which has created that expectation level - read Fever Pitch for more details.
This is the Wenger Paradox as I will keep calling it till it catches on. He is the reason we have this expectation level to challenge for titles and also the reason we don't.

Well nobody other than Wenger is holding back the team or lowering the expectation levels, he is the PROBLEM and he created the PROBLEM. It's One step forward Two steps back with him.

It's not really about what words we use, the facts are there for us all to see.

This whole new era/change when we bought Ozil or Sanchez has been flushed down the drain, we have to start it all over again this January/Summer except we are in a much worse position than we were before as the competition is now very fierce both in terms of the quality of Managers we are facing and the quality of teams we are facing.

Wenger is done, he's out of his depth now, he can't and won't fix this team.

He doesn't even deserve this season, what is he going to do that is any different? He makes a mess of player recruitment, ignores deficiencies in the team and fails to adapt to what is required of a team to challenge in modern day PL. He's useless to us.

[Özim]

2 of our stars of yesterday will be off next summer, so it's not even like these results matter that much, as Selassie we're starting again next summer, not building towards anything, just looking forward to losing to of our biggest signings for nothing, most probably without signing adequate replacements.

Thank you so much Wenger for raising our expectations, what would we do without you?

[Letters]

God knows why you entertain this conversation. :lol: Letters is lost.

Ooh! Ooh! Can I do the PnG trick?
Sorry, you obviously aren't smart enough to understand my position.
Hey, you're right, this IS fun!
:d

[Letters]

The manager is awful, dress it up anyway you like but there's a reason we are where we are and that we have regressed despite the huge resources, stability that no other club has had and all the resources to succeed, his decisions, his tactics, his signings, his failure to accept the important of leadership, the fact he plays players in the wrong positions, doesn't allow proper coaching, make poor subsitutions and picks inappropriate lineups, his failure to deal with contracts and the list goes on.

Not the suqads fault it's not all that great, it's the managers insistence on not wanting to do the logical thing like most other manager does. Other managers take risks, this can mean you end up higher up one seasona and lower the next, Wenger changes next to nothing, so this allows him to maintain a similar level but not for us to progress.

He's averse to risk and this creates stability, but for the fans he delivers some of the worst entertainment pound for pound. I'd take coming 8th in a season if it meant we went into a new season with unpredictablity and hope it could be different or perhaps that we might have an exciting sumer chasing and signing some decent players, or even if it meant we produced some glorious performances where we wipe the floor with the opposition, rather than this almost constant level where games are broing 99% of the time and performances produced are the bare minimum to get a result.

Yes we in games, but most of the time there's very little pleasure to be had from these wins because in the end we're unconvincing and deliver a substandard experience. The self proclaimed entertainer has forgotten what entertainment actually is but still thinks he delivers it by the bucketful, it's frankly embarassing, as is the way he just sweeps regular humiliations under the carpet like they never happened.

Actually agree with a lot of that, but he is an above average manager with an above average squad, compared with the rest of the PL. Results have shown that, let's not go overboard.
The issue is he's not good enough to get us challenging for the biggest prizes. The expectation level and the resources to do so are down to Wenger so he deserves some credit for that.
But if we're going to seriously compete again then he need a better manager, clearly. But do you trust this board to pick one?
While Kronke is around I don't see much hope for the future, to be honest.

[Niall_Quinn]

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now. Stand back and look at the state this club is in. He swore he'd never do damage to this club, that he'd leave if he couldn't progress things. But all along he was talking about the finances (which he dressed up by using the word culture, the culture at Arsenal) when the fans assumed he was talking about the team and success on the pitch. They assumed that because Ivan the Lizard came right out and said it. He promised investment on the pitch that was fit for the new stadium, he anticipated competition with that team that keeps thrashing us 10-2. These people don't have a leg to stand on. They are spectacular failures by their own standards, let alone ours. It is totally unreasonable to defend them. Either they are liars or they are so incompetent it beggars belief. FA Cup wins with a 9 figure squad does not hide these facts. Wigan can win that cup but when was the last time you saw Wigan competing for a title. That helps you understand the gulf between an FA Cup and the titles a club the size of Arsenal should be competing for. They are out of excuses, or so you would think, and most certainly fans shouldn't be making excuses on their behalf.

It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means. He's not a good manager, or even and above average manager, and whether Klopp wins the title or gets relegated is neither here nor there. Klopp can't be used as an excuse for Wenger. When the charlatans at our place were hiking the prices to world record levels they weren't talking about scrabbling around the minor places competing with Liverpool, so let's throw that lame excuse out and leave it out. That said, I'm pretty damn sure it wouldn't have taken Klopp 9 games to figure out it's smart to pick your best players and play them in the correct positions. I hope nobody is planning on giving Wenger an ounce of credit for yesterday. A first time FIFA gamer would be able to figure out what Wenger has just stumbled on, so why should the idiot get credit for being 9 games late to the obvious?

Above average nothing. I could be above average at anything if you stuck enough resources at my disposal. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mismanage the fuck out of them, as Wenger has done.

No excuses for the bloke. He's a selfish turd. A remarkable turd. Well above average in every turdish way you could think of. Stinking out the place. And it's time for him to fuck right off.

[Power n Glory]

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now. Stand back and look at the state this club is in. He swore he'd never do damage to this club, that he'd leave if he couldn't progress things. But all along he was talking about the finances (which he dressed up by using the word culture, the culture at Arsenal) when the fans assumed he was talking about the team and success on the pitch. They assumed that because Ivan the Lizard came right out and said it. He promised investment on the pitch that was fit for the new stadium, he anticipated competition with that team that keeps thrashing us 10-2. These people don't have a leg to stand on. They are spectacular failures by their own standards, let alone ours. It is totally unreasonable to defend them. Either they are liars or they are so incompetent it beggars belief. FA Cup wins with a 9 figure squad does not hide these facts. Wigan can win that cup but when was the last time you saw Wigan competing for a title. That helps you understand the gulf between an FA Cup and the titles a club the size of Arsenal should be competing for. They are out of excuses, or so you would think, and most certainly fans shouldn't be making excuses on their behalf.

It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means. He's not a good manager, or even and above average manager, and whether Klopp wins the title or gets relegated is neither here nor there. Klopp can't be used as an excuse for Wenger. When the charlatans at our place were hiking the prices to world record levels they weren't talking about scrabbling around the minor places competing with Liverpool, so let's throw that lame excuse out and leave it out. That said, I'm pretty damn sure it wouldn't have taken Klopp 9 games to figure out it's smart to pick your best players and play them in the correct positions. I hope nobody is planning on giving Wenger an ounce of credit for yesterday. A first time FIFA gamer would be able to figure out what Wenger has just stumbled on, so why should the idiot get credit for being 9 games late to the obvious?

Above average nothing. I could be above average at anything if you stuck enough resources at my disposal. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mismanage the fuck out of them, as Wenger has done.

No excuses for the bloke. He's a selfish turd. A remarkable turd. Well above average in every turdish way you could think of. Stinking out the place. And it's time for him to fuck right off.

:gp:

[AFC Leveller]

Career club assists...
- Ozil: 198
- Bergkamp, Scholes and Zidane combined: 189
But Özil "goes missing"

[Özim]

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now. Stand back and look at the state this club is in. He swore he'd never do damage to this club, that he'd leave if he couldn't progress things. But all along he was talking about the finances (which he dressed up by using the word culture, the culture at Arsenal) when the fans assumed he was talking about the team and success on the pitch. They assumed that because Ivan the Lizard came right out and said it. He promised investment on the pitch that was fit for the new stadium, he anticipated competition with that team that keeps thrashing us 10-2. These people don't have a leg to stand on. They are spectacular failures by their own standards, let alone ours. It is totally unreasonable to defend them. Either they are liars or they are so incompetent it beggars belief. FA Cup wins with a 9 figure squad does not hide these facts. Wigan can win that cup but when was the last time you saw Wigan competing for a title. That helps you understand the gulf between an FA Cup and the titles a club the size of Arsenal should be competing for. They are out of excuses, or so you would think, and most certainly fans shouldn't be making excuses on their behalf.

It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means. He's not a good manager, or even and above average manager, and whether Klopp wins the title or gets relegated is neither here nor there. Klopp can't be used as an excuse for Wenger. When the charlatans at our place were hiking the prices to world record levels they weren't talking about scrabbling around the minor places competing with Liverpool, so let's throw that lame excuse out and leave it out. That said, I'm pretty damn sure it wouldn't have taken Klopp 9 games to figure out it's smart to pick your best players and play them in the correct positions. I hope nobody is planning on giving Wenger an ounce of credit for yesterday. A first time FIFA gamer would be able to figure out what Wenger has just stumbled on, so why should the idiot get credit for being 9 games late to the obvious?

Above average nothing. I could be above average at anything if you stuck enough resources at my disposal. Doesn't mean I wouldn't mismanage the fuck out of them, as Wenger has done.

No excuses for the bloke. He's a selfish turd. A remarkable turd. Well above average in every turdish way you could think of. Stinking out the place. And it's time for him to fuck right off.

Great post, agree with it all.

[Özim]

Career club assists...
- Ozil: 198
- Bergkamp, Scholes and Zidane combined: 189
But Özil "goes missing"

Posting that really illustrates the problem with stats, I'm a fan of Ozil and think he is top quality in the right team (not as a player who has to pull you out of a hole but as an addition to an already very good squad to make it even better), but if you're going to be comparing them to the players you have saying he has more assists it will really just point out how they are useless in isolation.

Bergkamp was an amazing footballer that offered so much to the team on top of assists, Scholes is widely recognised as one of Man U's best ever players and one of the best in the PL and Zidane was one of the worlds best ever footballers with his flair and ability to produce the sublime, Ozil is not in the same league.

[GP]

Koeman has been sacked.

[dostoy]

Would you rather have Wenger or Koeman as the manager of Arsenal ?

[Niall_Quinn]

Would you rather have Wenger or Koeman as the manager of Arsenal ?

Neither. Both are currently mega failures and I'd rather not have a mega failure at the club. Apart from Theo who can stay because he has nowhere else to go.

[Cripps]

Can't argue with scientific "facts" like that :good:

You'd have to be really stupid not to see it.

[Cripps]

In terms of the PL we have not been average

:haha:

[Cripps]

The manager is awful, dress it up anyway you like but there's a reason we are where we are and that we have regressed despite the huge resources, stability that no other club has had and all the resources to succeed, his decisions, his tactics, his signings, his failure to accept the important of leadership, the fact he plays players in the wrong positions, doesn't allow proper coaching, make poor subsitutions and picks inappropriate lineups, his failure to deal with contracts and the list goes on.

Not the suqads fault it's not all that great, it's the managers insistence on not wanting to do the logical thing like most other manager does. Other managers take risks, this can mean you end up higher up one seasona and lower the next, Wenger changes next to nothing, so this allows him to maintain a similar level but not for us to progress.

He's averse to risk and this creates stability, but for the fans he delivers some of the worst entertainment pound for pound. I'd take coming 8th in a season if it meant we went into a new season with unpredictablity and hope it could be different or perhaps that we might have an exciting sumer chasing and signing some decent players, or even if it meant we produced some glorious performances where we wipe the floor with the opposition, rather than this almost constant level where games are broing 99% of the time and performances produced are the bare minimum to get a result.

Yes we in games, but most of the time there's very little pleasure to be had from these wins because in the end we're unconvincing and deliver a substandard experience. The self proclaimed entertainer has forgotten what entertainment actually is but still thinks he delivers it by the bucketful, it's frankly embarassing, as is the way he just sweeps regular humiliations under the carpet like they never happened.

Spot on.

[Marc Overmars]

Career club assists...
- Ozil: 198
- Bergkamp, Scholes and Zidane combined: 189
But Özil "goes missing"

Yet those guys are universally acknowledged as some of the all time greats and don't need fantasy football points to measure their greatness.

Ozil is a very creative player but as I said a while ago, assist stats are overrated. I'm pretty sure I'd rack up a few assists if I had Benzema and Ronaldo on the other end.

Players don't become polarising for no reason and Ozil is a prime example of that.

[Marc Overmars]

Actually agree with a lot of that, but he is an above average manager with an above average squad, compared with the rest of the PL. Results have shown that, let's not go overboard.
The issue is he's not good enough to get us challenging for the biggest prizes. The expectation level and the resources to do so are down to Wenger so he deserves some credit for that.
But if we're going to seriously compete again then he need a better manager, clearly. But do you trust this board to pick one?
While Kronke is around I don't see much hope for the future, to be honest.

When Zim or anyone for that matter talks about Wenger being average, shit or whatever, I don't literally take it as them saying he's the worst manager around. Of course he's not average, not compared to 75% of the league, but it's the other 25% of the league that we're a part of and Wenger needs to be held to account in that context, and that's what is being said. You bog yourself down too much with semantics.

[Letters]

People are going to react with cynicism whenever Wenger is defended, even mildly, because his position is indefensible now.
I don't think it's defending Wenger to call out bullshit like we have an "average" squad and an "awful" manager. That is just objectively not true.


Stand back and look at the state this club is in.
What state DO you think we are in? My view...

We have a squad which is not a million miles away from challenging for titles. We have a real problem with mentality but I think with a manger who could motivate them they wouldn't be far away.
We have the finances to compete, in theory, with pretty much anyone.
We have the stadium and global fanbase to sustain that.

BUT...
We have a manager who, while not as inept as some on here make out, is no longer good enough to compete for the biggest prizes, the game has moved on around him and he hasn't.
A board who couldn't give a monkeys how we do so long as the money keeps rolling in.

Replacing Wenger, while necessary, won't fix the second of those problems which is arguably a bigger long term problem, given Kronke's reputation in franchises he owns elsewhere.

Yes, Wigan won the FA Cup. So did Portsmouth. Those are exceptions though. Look back over the last 20 years and despite it losing some of its lustre amid the rise of the CL it's pretty much always the big clubs winning it.
It should not be the limit of the ambitions of a club of our size but I do wish people would stop pretending they don't care about it to suit their agendas.


It's a fucking joke this Wenger bloke got another contract and a huge pay rise. A disgrace that can't be excused by any means.
Agreed, and it tells you the priority of our board that he did. I do think he's above average, it's perfectly possible to believe that and also believe that he isn't good enough for a club with our (supposed) ambitions.
I only mentioned Klopp because people hail him as this towering genius and paint Wenger as a dribbling imbecile which is simplistic, to say the least. I probably would swap managers with Liverpool but I don't think we'd suddenly be sweeping all before us if we did. I actually liked what Koeman was doing at Southampton and wouldn't have minded him at Arsenal but...well, Everton :lol:

I don't think Wenger deserves much credit for beating a poor Everton side, no. But it was nice to win a "should win" game against a struggling side, we have been notoriously charitable in such situations in the past.

I think the "Wenger Out" debate is done, we're all on the same page with that one. But that doesn't mean that nothing he does is right or that everything is wrong at the club. The big problem I see is at board level. LDG made an interesting point that with this board maybe we should just stick with Wenger because they might just replace him with someone who will plod along in mid-table, the money will keep rolling in so what do they care. Not sure I agree but it's not the stupidest thing I've heard.

[Letters]

When Zim or anyone for that matter talks about Wenger being average, shit or whatever, I don't literally take it as them saying he's the worst manager around. Of course he's not average, not compared to 75% of the league, but it's the other 25% of the league that we're a part of and Wenger needs to be held to account in that context, and that's what is being said. You bog yourself down too much with semantics.

I think when Zim says it he does mean it, in fact he must do because when I pick him up on it he always doubles down.
Part in bold, probably right. Does make debating easier if people actually say what they mean though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger still hasn't given Lacazette 90 minutes. This is genuinely bizarre and you can't envisage any other manager behaving this way. There are circumstances under which Wenger can legitimately be considered the worst manager in the world.

It takes him 9 games to play his best players. Again, total insanity. You can't imagine anyone else doing something so inexplicable.

Lacazette scores yesterday. We're up against a poor team down to 10 men. Goals were there to be collected. Goals for strikers means confidence and momentum. So Wenger subs him. Lunacy. And it's not a one-off. He almost always subs players who have 2 goals, preventing them going for a third.

And when we are dominating, the poor old fool shuts up shop.

He can't get our best players to sign contracts (for reasons that are ALL down to him and his cronies in the boardroom) but he doesn't sell them, instead he keeps them here to run down the contracts and leave on a free - pretty fucking mad so far - AND THEN HE DOESN'T PLAY THEM. Bonkers! Absolute madness. It's as if he searches exhaustively for the very worst way to manage a thing and then miraculously finds an even worse solution.

Playing players out of position. A longstanding issue.

Fanatically adhering to his red zone bullshit with some players and then playing others into the ground.

Throwing young players under the bus in high intensity games or games in which we're getting a hiding.

Signing players like Sanogo.

Up until recently, refusing to extend the contracts of players approaching 30. Even when it decimated the team.

There is much more, including the crazy stuff he says.

There's something seriously wrong with this bloke and he is, indeed, in many respects the very worst manager on the planet. The evidence supports that statement.

[Özim]

I just don't get the Lacazette thing, the guy scores goals and you always want to keep those kind of players on as long as possible, yet Wenger takes him off, he can pop up at any point and get you a goal but no Wenger decides he has to be sacrificed for someone else.

No other manager would do this.

[Letters]

I think Wenger thinks that players new to the PL, as it is generally faster paced than other leagues, need some time to get used to that which is why he doesn't play them all the time at first.
Not saying I agree with that, but I think that's his reasoning.

[Cripps]

What makes it even more bizarre is that in general, he never subs ozil off. A guy who Mourinho managed brilliantly by always subbing him off in the Spanish league to save his legs for the next game. Ozil in the last 15-20 mins is useless, he's so fatigued he literally gives up.

[Cripps]

I think Wenger thinks that players new to the PL, as it is generally faster paced than other leagues, need some time to get used to that which is why he doesn't play them all the time at first.
Not saying I agree with that, but I think that's his reasoning.

Yeah I suppose we should bench them and not play our strongest team so we get thumped 4-0 at places like anfield :good:

[Letters]

Yeah I suppose we should bench them and not play our strongest team so we get thumped 4-0 at places like anfield :good:

Well, quite :lol:
That was mental. No idea why he did that.
But I think that's why he's been taking him off early.

[Niall_Quinn]

What makes it even more bizarre is that in general, he never subs ozil off. A guy who Mourinho managed brilliantly by always subbing him off in the Spanish league to save his legs for the next game. Ozil in the last 15-20 mins is useless, he's so fatigued he literally gives up.

That's what I was saying. Some players are given the red zone treatment, others are worked to death. I sincerely hope we haven't paid 50 mill for a professional footballer who can't do 90 minutes. Which is what Wenger is effectively saying. And anyway, the "pace" we usually display is 2 mph, backwards and sideways.

[Cripps]

Well, quite :lol:
That was mental. No idea why he did that.
But I think that's why he's been taking him off early.

Well to quote you earlier, it's things like that that make him seem as inept as people make him out :good:

[Letters]

Well to quote you earlier, it's things like that that make him seem as inept as people make him out :good:

If he were as inept as people make out we'd have long since dropped into mid-table, or worse :good:

[Cripps]

If he were as inept as people make out we'd have long since dropped into mid-table, or worse :good:

Name me 1 other manager that would have done that.

[Letters]

Name me 1 other manager that would have done that.

Well, Klopp had Dortmund in the relegation zone around February one season although they did recover. Mourinho had Chelsea in or close to the relegation zone before he got sacked.
Think in both cases that was the year after they were champions.
Moyes at Utd.

Plenty of managers have taken over a top 4 side and taken them in the wrong direction.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, Klopp had Dortmund in the relegation zone around February one season although they did recover. Mourinho had Chelsea in or close to the relegation zone before he got sacked.
Think in both cases that was the year after they were champions.
Moyes at Utd.

Plenty of managers have taken over a top 4 side and taken them in the wrong direction.

Nowhere near for as long as Wenger and with such dedicated attention to failure.

[Cripps]

Well, Klopp had Dortmund in the relegation zone around February one season although they did recover. Mourinho had Chelsea in or close to the relegation zone before he got sacked.
Think in both cases that was the year after they were champions.
Moyes at Utd.

Plenty of managers have taken over a top 4 side and taken them in the wrong direction.

I said name me 1 other manager that would have played a weak team at Anfield.

[Letters]

I said name me 1 other manager that would have played a weak team at Anfield.

OK. That isn't what you said if you look at the post you quoted...
I don't think he played a weak team in general but putting Giroud and Lacazette both on the bench was bizarre and I've not defended that.

[Letters]

Nowhere near for as long as Wenger and with such dedicated attention to failure.

No other manager would have kept their job at a club with Arsenal's (supposed) ambitions. But he's meeting the board's requirements. You don't sack an employee who is doing that.

[Cripps]

OK. That isn't what you said if you look at the post you quoted...
I don't think he played a weak team in general but putting Giroud and Lacazette both on the bench was bizarre and I've not defended that.

He went to anfield and did not start our 2 best strikers. That's a weakened team. It's utter madness and no manager in the world would have done that. There seems to be no logic to his madness.

[Niall_Quinn]

No other manager would have kept their job at a club with Arsenal's (supposed) ambitions. But he's meeting the board's requirements. You don't sack an employee who is doing that.

We're not talking about the shitheads in the board room. Nothing left to be said about those bastards. We're talking about where Wenger stands as a manager. All over the place is the correct answer. He's brilliant at making money for the club, absolutely awful, incompetent beyond belief, at utilising the footballing resources he has at his disposal. If the board has told him to prioritise making piles of cash then true, he's doing their bidding. But that's not the job of a football manager, is it? It's the job of an investment banker. Question is not whether he's a top or above average investment banker, question is what sort of a football manager he is.

A shite one.

[Niall_Quinn]

OK. That isn't what you said if you look at the post you quoted...
I don't think he played a weak team in general but putting Giroud and Lacazette both on the bench was bizarre and I've not defended that.

He did it again last week against Watford. Leaving Alexis at home because he was upset at not qualifying for the Word Cup. WTF? Seriously? What does Wenger do, ring around on Friday night and ask the players if they fancy a match on the weekend? He's kept hold of Chambers and then went and played Elneny at CB in the Europa League. The guy's a tool.

[selassie]

Well, Klopp had Dortmund in the relegation zone around February one season although they did recover. Mourinho had Chelsea in or close to the relegation zone before he got sacked.
Think in both cases that was the year after they were champions.
Moyes at Utd.

Plenty of managers have taken over a top 4 side and taken them in the wrong direction.

Wenger is quite similar to Klopp in that they both have similar traits when it comes to building teams/squads, both seem to favour loading their teams with attacking midfielders/wingers.

Klopp has loaded the Liverpool team with them and spent millions doing so when he has major issues with Keepers, Central Defence and to a lesser extent Central Midfield.

Klopp was brilliant at Dortmund in the early years but his stock has not risen for a while now. I'd have him over Wenger as I think he's a bit more adaptable but he's not elite.

[Marc Overmars]

Klopp hasn't had a decade to get it right and at the very least has taken Liverpool back into the CL after his first full season. They have glaring problems of course but if anyone has found some kind of solace in their failings then I think you're kidding yourself.

[Letters]

Klopp hasn't had a decade to get it right and at the very least has taken Liverpool back into the CL after his first full season. They have glaring problems of course but if anyone has found some kind of solace in their failings then I think you're kidding yourself.

I don't find solace in that, but I do think that this suggestion that there is a huge gulf in class between Wenger and Klopp is bullshit.
Both have failings.
And, for balance, a couple of years ago I was impressed at what Koeman was doing at Southampton and would quite liked to have had him at Arsenal, we'll never know how that might have played out but, well... Everton :lol:

[Cripps]

Klopp hasn't had a decade to get it right and at the very least has taken Liverpool back into the CL after his first full season. They have glaring problems of course but if anyone has found some kind of solace in their failings then I think you're kidding yourself.

:gp:

[Penguin]

If Wenger was in charge of liverpool they'd finish 10th. If klopp was here we'd win the league.

Not sure if you're being serious or not... I'll assume you're just winding up Letters :lol:

His stint so far at Liverpool have exposed some of Klopp's weaknesses to an extent. I'd still take him over Wenger any day of the week.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Klopp at least seems aware of his problems whereas our guy seems to have had his head buried in the sand for a while now. Plus he's also extracting a lot more out of his players and actually improving a few of them (something Wenger used to be known for). It's unquestionable imho that our squad is more talented than theirs and yet we're roughly about a par in terms of league performance so far - a damning indictment of the talent Wenger has been squandering.

He may not be the elite title winning manager that I once thought but I'd still have him over Wenger for the time being.

[Özim]

Klopp is a bit of a Wenger clone, but more adaptable, more charismatic and with a better eye for talent, he's better than Wenger overall but I'd have never chosen him as a replacement personally, would prefer someone more tactically astute like Simeone.

Fact is Klopps teams however play very exciting football and he did achieve success at Dortmund and did well in the CL (and also found some top top players along the way).

I also think Klopp strives to success and win trophies even if he doesn't achieve it, Wenger clearly doesn't, his trophy is financial.

[Özim]

Well, Klopp had Dortmund in the relegation zone around February one season although they did recover. Mourinho had Chelsea in or close to the relegation zone before he got sacked.
Think in both cases that was the year after they were champions.
Moyes at Utd.

Plenty of managers have taken over a top 4 side and taken them in the wrong direction.

To be honest I'd much prefer that over the same flatline progress season after season, never being anywhere near the league or CL and knowing what's going to happen in advance.

Unpredictability is much more exciting in football, when your team does the same thing every single season is as dull as dishwater just like Wenger.

[Özim]

He did it again last week against Watford. Leaving Alexis at home because he was upset at not qualifying for the Word Cup. WTF? Seriously? What does Wenger do, ring around on Friday night and ask the players if they fancy a match on the weekend? He's kept hold of Chambers and then went and played Elneny at CB in the Europa League. The guy's a tool.

With Wenger, the players are in charge, he panders to their every whim, if one of them has the sniffles he gives them the week off, if a player who will be leaving us come the end of the season, comes back from International a little upset, he tells him to have the week off, this despite the fact we pay the guy and not his country and the fact we should make the most of him whilst he's here because he's not sticking around.

Sick of watching Wenger wrap players in cotton wool like, no wonder they are pansies on the pitch, he indulges their every whim, time to get rid of the soft touch mentality and bring in a better manager who will put players in their place, not someone who doesn't dare say a word against them and would choose blaming the paying pundit over being critical of his adopted sons.

It's ironic though, because over the years quite a few have taken him for a ride and left him with egg on his face, he's a players dream if you want an easy ride, come to Arsenal pick up your paycheck no strings attached, you don't even need to be any good, even if you're not you'll last at least 5 years over here.

Makes me laugh how he's hyped squad after squad over the years, claiming they are 2% away from the 2nd coming, noone ever picks him up on his nonsense, how many times has he claimed it's his best group, they are ready to win, next season they will have more experience etc etc broken record comes to mind, one smashed into a million pieces by a hammer at that.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Another thread descending to the same old shit.

Couldn't we have continued talking about the match?

[Niall_Quinn]

Another thread descending to the same old shit.

Couldn't we have continued talking about the match?

Of course you can. Go ahead.

[selassie]

Klopp hasn't had a decade to get it right and at the very least has taken Liverpool back into the CL after his first full season. They have glaring problems of course but if anyone has found some kind of solace in their failings then I think you're kidding yourself.

Aye, don't get me wrong I think Klopp will fare better over the long term and besides I don't think Liverpool will give him the time to mess about like we have Wenger. Liverpool sacked Rodgers and he nearly won the league there so they certainly have some kind of quality control in place or at least have a plan.

I have wanted Wenger gone for about 5 seasons now so I am in no way defending him.

That bloke down the road is showing both of them up, he's built arguably a better squad with more or less no money, he's just a trophy away from really moving into the elite group of managers considering what he's done in such a short space of time. He's pretty much improved every player in his squad too, some by a huge margin.

[Özim]

Another thread descending to the same old shit.

Couldn't we have continued talking about the match?

Feel free, think this thread will have very few comments though, if you continue talking about the match you'll probably see one post every 2-3 days. Noone really cares that much about the matches these days, they are pretty meaningless in the big picture :lol:

[Cripps]

Not sure if you're being serious or not... I'll assume you're just winding up Letters :lol:

His stint so far at Liverpool have exposed some of Klopp's weaknesses to an extent. I'd still take him over Wenger any day of the week.

If you think klopp wouldn't seriously seriously improve us then you're silly.

He has a shocking squad at liverpool. Ours is much better.

[Power n Glory]

Another thread descending to the same old shit.

Couldn't we have continued talking about the match?

Talk to your guy. All stems from his usual wind ups. But as others have said, nothing is stopping you from talking about the match.

What was your take on the performances? Rating out of 10?

[Niall_Quinn]

Natural result of 10 years of this shit. One impressive performance isn't going to shift the needle. We'll see how things look after the gypo and spud games. If we've still got our arseholes intact after those two then we'll get a flicker of interest. But even then, only a fool would dive in with both feet and start talking about a resurgence. Been here tgoo many times with Wenger and apathy was the absolute inevitable outcome.

Of course it's made all the more meaningless because the players who orchestrated the performance want the fuck out of here pronto. So this is more like a temporary tease and a reminder of how much we've blown.

[Penguin]

If you think klopp wouldn't seriously seriously improve us then you're silly.

He has a shocking squad at liverpool. Ours is much better.

I'm actually a big fan of Klopp. I was responding to your comment that he'd win us the league (I'm assuming you mean with the squad we have now) and that Wenger would finish 10th with Liverpool's. If you really believe that, you're the silly one ;)

If he has a shocking squad he's responsible for it. He's been there for two seasons and has had plenty of time and money to build a squad. The only good signing he's made is Mane. This summer they clearly needed a keeper and at least one quality centre half and he ended up spending £35million on Ox. A bench warmer! Now they STILL can't defend to save their lives, all because Klopp failed to address the problem areas in the transfer window. Remind you of anyone?

I love the way Klopp's team play but clearly there's a defensive problem that he doesn't look like he knows how to address. They're awful at defending set pieces too. Again, remind you of anyone?

[Letters]

Watched the highlights.
Generally looked like a good performance.
Unlucky to be a goal down - had to laugh at MoTD commentators talking about Rooney's "brilliance" :lol:. Was a good finish but nothing more. Anyway. Some nice goals. Ozil's was good, Sanchez's brilliant. Could and should have scored more.
Blame Monreal more than Cech for Everton's consolation, Cech was more culpable early in the game with his hesitation which could have seen us 2 down.

Everton are rubbish but we are notoriously charitable against such sides so it was nice to actually get 3 points this time.

[Power n Glory]

I'm actually a big fan of Klopp. I was responding to your comment that he'd win us the league (I'm assuming you mean with the squad we have now) and that Wenger would finish 10th with Liverpool's. If you really believe that, you're the silly one ;)

If he has a shocking squad he's responsible for it. He's been there for two seasons and has had plenty of time and money to build a squad. The only good signing he's made is Mane. This summer they clearly needed a keeper and at least one quality centre half and he ended up spending £35million on Ox. A bench warmer! Now they STILL can't defend to save their lives, all because Klopp failed to address the problem areas in the transfer window. Remind you of anyone?

I love the way Klopp's team play but clearly there's a defensive problem that he doesn't look like he knows how to address. They're awful at defending set pieces too. Again, remind you of anyone?

Seems like Liverpool have a history of overpaying for English players. Not sure how much influence Klopp has on that changing. But it looks like he has some influence because he encouraged the Board to appoint a Director of Football last November. Not sure how much blame falls on him for the lack of transfers with that in mind. Liverpool have hardly spent a penny since he's been in charge. He definitely needs to sort out the defence but it would be foolish of Liverpool to not give him the sort of time needed to restructure things.

[selassie]

Natural result of 10 years of this shit. One impressive performance isn't going to shift the needle. We'll see how things look after the gypo and spud games.If we've still got our arseholes intact after those two then we'll get a flicker of interest. But even then, only a fool would dive in with both feet and start talking about a resurgence. Been here tgoo many times with Wenger and apathy was the absolute inevitable outcome.

Of course it's made all the more meaningless because the players who orchestrated the performance want the fuck out of here pronto. So this is more like a temporary tease and a reminder of how much we've blown.

The City game is a write off, Spuds at home is a draw at best. I think we'll do well to come out of those 2 games with a point TBH.

[Cripps]

I'm actually a big fan of Klopp. I was responding to your comment that he'd win us the league (I'm assuming you mean with the squad we have now) and that Wenger would finish 10th with Liverpool's. If you really believe that, you're the silly one ;)

We'd be up there. He'd improve us in every department. In fact I can't think one department that Wenger beats him in. Klopp tends to go for clubs that are building projects and these tend to have poor squads/need more time. This leaves him more vulnerable. He's given their existing players a chance and he'll now flog em cause he's realised they are useless and bring in his own.

At liverpool there have been years of structural and squad decay and that can't be fixed in 3-4 transfer windows, especially with a board with something like +20m net spend over the years.

[Niall_Quinn]

The City game is a write off, Spuds at home is a draw at best. I think we'll do well to come out of those 2 games with a point TBH.

Would be pure Arsenal to beat the gypos, get everyone raving, and then get annihilated by the spuds.