View Full Version : Arsene's Perspective - Is this the main problem?
Right - this isn't another thread just moaning about AW. But it is an attempt to analyse what is going on at the club these days.
What seems to be riling a lot of people is that our best players want out - but the deadwood is staying. I don't think this is something that we can blame the manager for directly - becuase by all accounts he is willing to offload Bendtner; Diaby; Eboue; Denilson; Almunia; Vela etc. But indirectly it does point to me to a shocking lack of judgment.
I mean all managers get it wrong sometimes - but for a manager who was famed for astute judgment when it comes to players it is surprising to say the least that so many of the 'failed first teamers' at AFC have been rewarded with such big contracts that they now can't be moved without losing money. This suggests a lack of judgment - not just in the light of his players' failure to do the business on the pitch, but in terms of their propensity to get injured, and their lack of winning mentality. I can't think of any other team - even Citeh who seem to collect fairly average players like football cards - who have so many underperformers earning so much (at least relative to the club's resources).
The news today that Diaby is injured again (away from AFC), so we won't be able to offload him and will therefore almost certainly miss out on a decent transfer fee is almost as depressing as the indication that our better players have lost faith. But the worst of it is that overpayment of underperformers has used up valuable resources that could have been used to reward the talent in our team.
Now for me there are 2 credible explanations. The first is that Wenger has 'ruined' his bright prospects. There may be an element of truth to this - because persisting with/rewarding under-performances; playing players out of position; failure to address defending as a team and cultivating complacency are undoubtedly factors.
But for me the more significant explanation is a lack of perspective, and the implications are worrying. We have long since known that AW has complete faith in his methods - which is why he has insisted on not investing more in transfers in his now failed project team - and why he has until now not addressed problems that are apparent to most other experts; pundits and Gooners.
For me, this explains partly the Cesc/Nasri protracted saga's too. I have little doubt that AW believes/believed he could convince both players to stay - just as he seemed to have done with Cesc last year. But players have now seen through this, and do not share his belief - and I wonder if doesn't appreciate this. I wonder also whether the fact that we seem to be missing out on transfer targets is part of the same process - that AW simply doesn't see how he is now percieved by the most ambitious players.
Thoughts?
its an issue with many clubs and many players. wages have escalated everywhere and now clubs that want to offload certain players are hitting a wall because of the wages they are on. see j.cole, bellamy etc
budesonide
06-07-2011, 01:13 PM
wenger is a wan*ker -- there, I said it in four words. :o:
its an issue with many clubs and many players. wages have escalated everywhere and now clubs that want to offload certain players are hitting a wall because of the wages they are on. see j.cole, bellamy etc
True - but there do seem to be a very high number of players at Arsenal who are on very high wages having been rewarded for potential that has simply not been realised. I'd say that this is slightly different from Bellamy or Cole who were both half decent back in the day but have simply (in the case of J Cole at least) gone stale.
And the rush to tie in our underperformers to lucrative contracts contrasts with a serial failure over the past few seasons to tie in our performers. Its frustrating, to be sure.
selassie
06-07-2011, 01:20 PM
Yes the problem starts & ends with Arsene, obviously other factors play a part but when you look at the number of failed projects players & average established players who we are looking to move on it raises an eyebrow. If you then look at what they are reportedly earning & the lack of interest show in them it's a very worrying situation.
What really baffles me more than anything is we pride ourselves on being "financially sound" and "doing things the right way", yet we've been rewarding/renewing players wages when they have given little to nothing in terms of positive contribution.
How on earth do players like Denilson & Diaby justify 50K per week long term contracts? It really defies belief & makes a mockery of this supposed sound financial business model to the playing staff.
Joker
06-07-2011, 01:23 PM
The players have definitely lost faith in Wengerball IMO, which clearly explains why players like Nasri and Cesc want out. And like you say, the manager himself I think knows deep down that his philosophy is flawed, but because he becomes so ideologically invested in this way of managing, he fails to see what his brain already knows: that Wengerball as a style of play is not suited to the EPL, is unable to cope against different styles of play and more fundamentally, the players he has assembled in the last 5-6 years are not good enough to play within this demanding setup, which requires players who can slot into different positions on the pitch, have a high level of football intelligence and great stamina. It's obvious that players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner are not good enough or flexible enough to play this style.
I've drawn parallels before to those who staunchly believe in free market economics, despite its manifest failures especially over the last few years. Many were so convinced that these theories worked in practise that when it all blew up in their face, they couldn't accept that the whole intellectual edifice had collapsed around them, so they persisted with the old certainties, despite knowing that the results would not be different no matter how often you peddle the BS.
I think the same is happening with Wenger, who simply refuses to accept that we need a new footballing philosophy at Arsenal, and also a new philosophy of footballing development, which relies more heavily on ensuring that once a certain group of players are nearing the end of their time at the club, we immediately look to replenish the squad with top quality, experienced players, paying the premium if necessary, and relying on them to form the spine of the team for years to come. We should maintain a strong youth setup, definitely, but instead of dismantling the squad in a short period of time, replacing them with youngsters, we should introduce youth players slowly and steadily, allowing them to learn from the experienced players, so that when they're ready to take over from the previous generation, they have the experience and most crucially the mentality needed to succeed. This is what Wenger failed to do; he used some form of "shock therapy", throwing all the youngsters into the first team all at once; with these youngsters lacking players with strong mentalities around them, they picked up bad habits from each other, which is why players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner etc have barely improved since 2006, and play is such a lackadaisical manner
wenger is a wan*ker -- there, I said it four words. :yes:
Not what I was saying, at least. I was asking rather whether we are looking at a case of terminal loss of perspective.
True - but there do seem to be a very high number of players at Arsenal who are on very high wages having been rewarded for potential that has simply not been realised. I'd say that this is slightly different from Bellamy or Cole who were both half decent back in the day but have simply (in the case of J Cole at least) gone stale.
And the rush to tie in our underperformers to lucrative contracts contrasts with a serial failure over the past few seasons to tie in our performers. Its frustrating, to be sure.
the club wasnt wrong to hand out the contracts as such, as the talent was/is there to fulfill it. however the crucial element missing is the mental strength to go that extra mile, something that i'm sure all within the club would have been achieved. so from their perspective at the time, it made sense to hand the money out.
people flippantly call the squad garbage when obviously they are not, they fell down with an element that the manager wasn't able to stabilize into the team.
The players have definitely lost faith in Wengerball IMO, which clearly explains why players like Nasri and Cesc want out. And like you say, the manager himself I think knows deep down that his philosophy is flawed, but because he becomes so ideologically invested in this way of managing, he fails to see what his brain already knows: that Wengerball as a style of play is not suited to the EPL, is unable to cope against different styles of play and more fundamentally, the players he has assembled in the last 5-6 years are not good enough to play within this demanding setup, which requires players who can slot into different positions on the pitch, have a high level of football intelligence and great stamina. It's obvious that players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner are not good enough or flexible enough to play this style.
I've drawn parallels before to those who staunchly believe in free market economics, despite its manifest failures especially over the last few years. Many were so convinced that these theories worked in practise that when it all blew up in their face, they couldn't accept that the whole intellectual edifice had collapsed around them, so they persisted with the old certainties, despite knowing that the results would not be different no matter how often you peddle the BS.
I think the same is happening with Wenger, who simply refuses to accept that we need a new footballing philosophy at Arsenal, and also a new philosophy of footballing development, which relies more heavily on ensuring that once a certain group of players are nearing the end of their time at the club, we immediately look to replenish the squad with top quality, experienced players, paying the premium if necessary, and relying on them to form the spine of the team for years to come. We should maintain a strong youth setup, definitely, but instead of dismantling the squad in a short period of time, replacing them with youngsters, we should introduce youth players slowly and steadily, allowing them to learn from the experienced players, so that when they're ready to take over from the previous generation, they have the experience and most crucially the mentality needed to succeed. This is what Wenger failed to do; he used some form of "shock therapy", throwing all the youngsters into the first team all at once; with these youngsters lacking players with strong mentalities around them, they picked up bad habits from each other, which is why players like Denilson, Diaby, Bendtner etc have barely improved since 2006.
The problem is, i reckon, that when you put all your eggs in one basket of youth you get too close to them that you lose perspective. Wenger wanted them to do well so badly, believed that they would come good enough to reward them in a manner incommensurate with their ability/worth that he couldn't see/admit that they weren't good enough.
Its fine margins, because I do believe he almost made it - but he has been let down by too many of his players - and that means that he's been let down ultimately for his own lack of judgment. This is what concerns me - given that he is paid Ł6M pa for his astuteness as a manager. And it concerns me because I don't think that a lack of judgment/perspective is going to be solved by buying more players in the transfer market.
budesonide
06-07-2011, 01:31 PM
Not what I was saying, at least. I was asking rather whether we are looking at a case of terminal loss of perspective.
wasn't meant as a paraphrase of your post; merely suggesting what the root cause of our predicament might be, albeit much glibly. :tiphat:
selassie
06-07-2011, 01:34 PM
the club wasnt wrong to hand out the contracts as such, as the talent was/is there to fulfill it. however the crucial element missing is the mental strength to go that extra mile, something that i'm sure all within the club would have been achieved. so from their perspective at the time, it made sense to hand the money out.
people flippantly call the squad garbage when obviously they are not, they fell down with an element that the manager wasn't able to stabilize into the team.
No it didn't make sense to hand the money out, it's a ludicrous & flawed policy.
We've been handing out contracts to players who have achieved nothing. The whole point of a "reward" is that when a said player reaches a level or starts playing above a level he is expected that's when you hand out the incentives and juicy contracts.
I really don't understand the flawed business model that we operate, we seem happy to take a gamble on paying out for potential but seemingly will not pay the required going rate for quality, I'm talking about wages & transfer fees here.
Arsene has been gambling with the squad for far too long and it's backfiring on him now.
the club wasnt wrong to hand out the contracts as such, as the talent was/is there to fulfill it. however the crucial element missing is the mental strength to go that extra mile, something that i'm sure all within the club would have been achieved. so from their perspective at the time, it made sense to hand the money out.
people flippantly call the squad garbage when obviously they are not, they fell down with an element that the manager wasn't able to stabilize into the team.
I think that is a fair point - and I agree 100% that these players aren't garbage. But beyond mental strength - which I think is a factor that can be laid at the door of the first team - particularly the likes of Nasri; Arshavin; Clichy; Almunia; Diaby (the latter is a footballing simpleton, IMO) - too many of our players have not shown the form or ability that their renumeration demands. It concerns me that a manager as celebrated and experienced, and supposedly astute as Wenger, can have this much of a blind spot. Like I say. One or two players, maybe - no manager is perfect. But such a large group of underperformers...?
wasn't meant as a paraphrase of your post; merely suggesting what the root cause of our predicament might be, albeit much glibly. :tiphat:
Gotcha :good:
the club wasnt wrong to hand out the contracts as such, as the talent was/is there to fulfill it. however the crucial element missing is the mental strength to go that extra mile, something that i'm sure all within the club would have been achieved. so from their perspective at the time, it made sense to hand the money out.
people flippantly call the squad garbage when obviously they are not, they fell down with an element that the manager wasn't able to stabilize into the team.
I disagree, I categorically think they were wrong. Many of these players were kids, who not only hadn't achieved a thing but also didn't display a great deal of natural ability, it made absolutely no sense to give them big paydays, they didn't cost a lot so even if they did walk away we lost very little, players like Nasri on the other hand cost us what 15 million and thus should be tied down if only to recoup as much as possible if he left.
This all comes down to Wenger's beliefs that everyone should earn similar amounts to keep squad harmony, in fact there is no harmony in the squad despite him constantly referring to great spirit, attitude and togetherness.
He seems totally deluded to me.
Joker
06-07-2011, 01:37 PM
I really don't understand the flawed business model that we operate, we seem happy to take a gamble on paying out for potential but seemingly will not pay the required going rate for quality, I'm talking about wages & transfer fees here.
Yes that is seriously bizarre and extremely damaging IMO. I think it's true that Wenger is so involved in the youth project that I don't think he accepts how poor some of the former youth players like Denilson and Bendtner are. Therefore, given his own personal investment in their development, he sees what he wants to see, i.e. young players who are well on their way to fulfilling their (in Wenger's opinion) outstanding potential. If he could detach himself from the project and look at reality, he'd realise that these players are a lost cause, and rewarding them with long contracts worth so much money is totally unjustified, and does a lot of harm to the club in the long run.
Marc Overmars
06-07-2011, 01:38 PM
Well, it's his best squad ever apparently, so it's no wonder he is comfortable with rewarding them handsomely.
No it didn't make sense to hand the money out, it's a ludicrous & flawed policy.
We've been handing out contracts to players who have achieved nothing. The whole point of a "reward" is that when a said player reaches a level or starts playing above a level he is expected that's when you hand out the incentives and juicy contracts.
I really don't understand the flawed business model that we operate, we seem happy to take a gamble on paying out for potential but seemingly will not pay the required going rate for quality, I'm talking about wages & transfer fees here.
Arsene has been gambling with the squad for far too long and it's backfiring on him now.
Or put another way, surely you reward players with long, lucrative contracts to ensure that they stay with the club - yet in too many instances, this clearly wasn't necessary, because noone was going to be coming after them anyway - or at least not with an offer that the club couldn't match if necessary. Yet the players that we needed to keep weren't tied into contracts...This is an indictment of the manager's judgment, surely?
Joker
06-07-2011, 01:43 PM
Well, it's his best squad ever apparently, so it's no wonder he is comfortable with rewarding them handsomely.
LOL he's said this three years in a row:
2008:
http://arsenal.footballblog.co.uk/my-best-ever-arsenal-team-wenger.html
2009:
http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/report_current-arsenal-squad-is-my-best-ever-arsene-wenger_1327686
2010:
http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/wenger-current-arsenal-squad-my-best-ever-1263251
“If you look at the players who are not in there [against Tottenham on Saturday], plus [injured duo] Diaby and Vermaelen, we have too big a squad.
:lol: Jesus wept.
LOL he's said this three years in a row:
2008:
http://arsenal.footballblog.co.uk/my-best-ever-arsenal-team-wenger.html
2009:
http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/report_current-arsenal-squad-is-my-best-ever-arsene-wenger_1327686
2010:
http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/wenger-current-arsenal-squad-my-best-ever-1263251
:lol: Jesus wept.
Pretty much makes my point about perspective, doesn't it. The problem is that while it would be easy to say that this is just 'PR' talk - i think that Wenger has spouted so much of this he himself believes the hype!
I disagree, I categorically think they were wrong. Many of these players were kids, who not only hadn't achieved a thing but also didn't display a great deal of natural ability, it made absolutely no sense to give them big paydays, they didn't cost a lot so even if they did walk away we lost very little, players like Nasri on the other hand cost us what 15 million and thus should be tied down if only to recoup as much as possible if he left.
This all comes down to Wenger's beliefs that everyone should earn similar amounts to keep squad harmony, in fact there is no harmony in the squad despite him constantly referring to great spirit, attitude and togetherness.
He seems totally deluded to me.
i think you skipped the part where i said 'from their perspective'
Cripps_orig
06-07-2011, 01:52 PM
Change the word perspective in to Wenger in the thread title and i totally agree
i think you skipped the part where i said 'from their perspective'
True, a f*cked up perspective unfortunately :lol:
Darth Vela
06-07-2011, 02:40 PM
I think it's one of the inevitable risks of the policy we started with to keep us going through the lean times, if you take all those players to be complete and utter failures then yeah it seems like a critical error and that we are a club in crisis but take a look at it as the fact that they're NOT as bad as most people think they are and it doesn't look so bad. I think we have been remiss to some area of their education, it can't be a coincidence that we have too many fair-weather fancy-dans flouncing off at the first time they're out of the team or feel under-used nor is it likely to be a coincidence that we have too many of them and we collapse at the vital moments but there have been enough successes to suggest the entire idea isn't flawed, just that the balance is wrong.
To echo the final part of the OP though, it is quite worrying that we don't seem to be the attraction we use to be, hardly surprising, but I don't think there's any lack of belief in the footballing philosophy that Wenger has instilled on the part of the players, more a lack of belief in AW's ability to get it done and that could be even more difficult to overcome if that's the case.
Thing is Wenger gambled and I completely understand why.
He tried to play a system in which an average player can understand and play, and in some cases looks good.
Clearly this was to try and ensure we stay in the Champions League money without spending too much while we pay for the new stadium.
The emergence of City and their bottomless pit of oil money has upped the stakes and with Liverpool making some sensible decisions in the last 6 months has made things more difficult to break the top 4.
We sold some of these players on at a profit which is always nice but the biggest mistake was trying to keep them at the club by paying stupidly inflated wages. Guess what "there is always a bigger fish". their is no loyalty anywhere in this league. Only Man U, City and Chelsea can really hold on to players with these wages as they also invest in players so to ensure they compete all through the season rather than for 6-7 months of it.
The project has not entirely failed, its just that the stakes have been raised.
Wenger did not make it easier for himself when he does not invest in better players. He could of after all sold some of the shite he had 12-24 months ago to cut wages. This was not an astute deal to keep these "fringe" players when money is tight.
Im not so sure he picks up gems either. After all he has bought atremendous amount of poor players and I feel that this has stopped him gambling on new quality players now.He is playing far too safe.
In all honesty I dont understand why an "intelligent" man could make so many obvious errors, and I feel this is why he is being slatted now. We could all see it but nothing was done.
Power n Glory
06-07-2011, 08:32 PM
Wenger is no longer the big fish in a small pond. In fact, the pond is now bigger and so are the fish. The flaws we now see in Wenger has always been there. Think back to those awful Champions League days with the old guard. We never performed well on the world stage and it's part of the reason Henry never won the World Player Award. The problem with discipline has always been there, think back to Anelka and the problems he had with our Dutch players, having to sell off key players...it's always been there.
Man City and Chelsea have played their roles, but in opinion, Wenger is limited as a coach and was bound to get exposed which is why he has always avoided going to a big club. He's content at this level. After his spell in France he decided to go to Japan instead of going to larger club. Bayern Munich once wanted him the French National team wanted him and he decided to go to the J League! Why? He's not that confident and it's probably why he surrounds himself with players that need work and not that arrogant. He has to raise his game now. The league never had so many strong teams and coaches when we were winning.
Tipsychubbs
06-07-2011, 08:51 PM
LOL he's said this three years in a row:
2008:
http://arsenal.footballblog.co.uk/my-best-ever-arsenal-team-wenger.html
2009:
http://www.dnaindia.com/sport/report_current-arsenal-squad-is-my-best-ever-arsene-wenger_1327686
2010:
http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/wenger-current-arsenal-squad-my-best-ever-1263251
:lol: Jesus wept.
http://www.djrequest.co.uk/img/broken-record.jpg
http://www.djrequest.co.uk/img/broken-record.jpg
:lol: He use to break records, now he's the biggest broken record of them all!
Wenger is no longer the big fish in a small pond. In fact, the pond is now bigger and so are the fish. The flaws we now see in Wenger has always been there. Think back to those awful Champions League days with the old guard. We never performed well on the world stage and it's part of the reason Henry never won the World Player Award. The problem with discipline has always been there, think back to Anelka and the problems he had with our Dutch players, having to sell off key players...it's always been there.
Man City and Chelsea have played their roles, but in opinion, Wenger is limited as a coach and was bound to get exposed which is why he has always avoided going to a big club. He's content at this level. After his spell in France he decided to go to Japan instead of going to larger club. Bayern Munich once wanted him the French National team wanted him and he decided to go to the J League! Why? He's not that confident and it's probably why he surrounds himself with players that need work and not that arrogant. He has to raise his game now. The league never had so many strong teams and coaches when we were winning.
well said. times have changed faster than he anticipated and he is having to make some serious adjustments
Wenger is no longer the big fish in a small pond. In fact, the pond is now bigger and so are the fish. The flaws we now see in Wenger has always been there. Think back to those awful Champions League days with the old guard. We never performed well on the world stage and it's part of the reason Henry never won the World Player Award. The problem with discipline has always been there, think back to Anelka and the problems he had with our Dutch players, having to sell off key players...it's always been there.
Man City and Chelsea have played their roles, but in opinion, Wenger is limited as a coach and was bound to get exposed which is why he has always avoided going to a big club. He's content at this level. After his spell in France he decided to go to Japan instead of going to larger club. Bayern Munich once wanted him the French National team wanted him and he decided to go to the J League! Why? He's not that confident and it's probably why he surrounds himself with players that need work and not that arrogant. He has to raise his game now. The league never had so many strong teams and coaches when we were winning.
Well - if that's the case, then we really do have a perfect storm - because unlike the brilliant SAF who always make sure he has talented coaches around him, Wenger by all accounts brooks no other real input...But I disagree with you re his confidence. I think that the manager has utter belief in his abilities. Maybe nearer the truth is that he regards his principal talent as developing players, not improving proven ones - which would explain his choice of clubs. Also, I think that the thing that keeps him at Arsenal is that he receives unprecedented patience; control and board support with us.
Power n Glory
07-07-2011, 10:01 AM
Well - if that's the case, then we really do have a perfect storm - because unlike the brilliant SAF who always make sure he has talented coaches around him, Wenger by all accounts brooks no other real input...But I disagree with you re his confidence. I think that the manager has utter belief in his abilities. Maybe nearer the truth is that he regards his principal talent as developing players, not improving proven ones - which would explain his choice of clubs. Also, I think that the thing that keeps him at Arsenal is that he receives unprecedented patience; control and board support with us. He believes in his philosophy but I don't think he's confident enough to handle big personalties. Adams, Keown and co used to put the foreign players in their place if they thought they were slacking. Vieira was made captain because he could also control the dressing room. Henry was given the armband in an attempt to control his outbursts and get him to assume the position as a leader, Gallas as captain is another example, he seems to avoid conflict. At a club with huge stars and egos, I think he'd struggle. With our players, when they hit that level when their on the big boys radars, he can't keep a hold of them.
Letters
07-07-2011, 10:30 AM
Wenger is no longer the big fish in a small pond. In fact, the pond is now bigger and so are the fish. The flaws we now see in Wenger has always been there. Think back to those awful Champions League days with the old guard. We never performed well on the world stage and it's part of the reason Henry never won the World Player Award. The problem with discipline has always been there, think back to Anelka and the problems he had with our Dutch players, having to sell off key players...it's always been there.
Man City and Chelsea have played their roles, but in opinion, Wenger is limited as a coach and was bound to get exposed which is why he has always avoided going to a big club. He's content at this level. After his spell in France he decided to go to Japan instead of going to larger club. Bayern Munich once wanted him the French National team wanted him and he decided to go to the J League! Why? He's not that confident and it's probably why he surrounds himself with players that need work and not that arrogant. He has to raise his game now. The league never had so many strong teams and coaches when we were winning.
That's an interesting post. The last sentence is true but there's no doubt Wenger revolutionised the club with his training methods, fitness regime and knowledge of the worldwide game which meant he was able to bring in foreign players under the radar of other clubs. I've seen a lot of revisionism on here from some who, frustrated by the last few years, have claimed that what Wenger did back then wasn't that impressive. In the context of the way the game was at the time in this country, it was.
The problem is other clubs have caught up, he's lost that edge. Also the wages and transfer fees, fueled by billionaire sugar-daddies, have spiralled out of control right at a time when we were moving stadium which meant a certain belt tightening. And I think Wenger has been far too principled and while I agree that the money has got out of control in the modern game I think you have to play the game and join in. He's done well to keep us top 4 by building a young side, his methods have NOT been a complete failure. Where he's failed is to combine that with a few big buys which could have pushed us over the line and won us a few trophies. Frustrating. But he's not suddenly this bumbling idiot who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, we wouldn't have stayed top 4 were that so.
That's an interesting post. The last sentence is true but there's no doubt Wenger revolutionised the club with his training methods, fitness regime and knowledge of the worldwide game which meant he was able to bring in foreign players under the radar of other clubs. I've seen a lot of revisionism on here from some who, frustrated by the last few years, have claimed that what Wenger did back then wasn't that impressive. In the context of the way the game was at the time in this country, it was.
The problem is other clubs have caught up, he's lost that edge. Also the wages and transfer fees, fueled by billionaire sugar-daddies, have spiralled out of control right at a time when we were moving stadium which meant a certain belt tightening. And I think Wenger has been far too principled and while I agree that the money has got out of control in the modern game I think you have to play the game and join in. He's done well to keep us top 4 by building a young side, his methods have NOT been a complete failure. Where he's failed is to combine that with a few big buys which could have pushed us over the line and won us a few trophies. Frustrating. But he's not suddenly this bumbling idiot who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, we wouldn't have stayed top 4 were that so.
Seconded.
Power n Glory
07-07-2011, 10:57 AM
Back during the early years, me and my mates used to have these conversations. They'd always watch Serie A and La Liga and when it came to the Prem they'd always say, the team we had were too good for this league and they weren't too impressed with is busting up teams like Charlton. They'd always come back and say 'do it in the Champions League'. It ain't easy to win the CL and that was always my defence, but right now, with better players and coaches in the league, Wenger and the team look average.
This isn't revisionism. Not from me. It's been an ongoing discussion. It goes as far back as Henry not winning the World Player of the Year award and why. When Henry kept saying 'we're not a big club' I knew what he was getting at. Others don't respect us and our players in the same way they do at Milan, Barca, Man U, Real.... The last few years have confirmed my fears.
If people are going to say La Liga is as bad as the Scottish league because of the two massive teams dominating, what the heck was the Premier League back then?
Regards the ECL;
The style of football we played then was quick, pacey counter attack. We got slowed down by other teams in Europe who were more comfortable and able to dictate the pace of the game. Back then, the champs league was about patient football. Not the explosive stuff we used to play.
Now, it's about pace and movement and power and practically everything it wasn't back then. Barca are the only team who play the patient continental game, and with added brilliance in Messi which gives a whole new dynamic to that style of play.
Wenger set out to build a team (IMO, btw) to suit the continental approach. His dream being to win the ECL. What has fucked him over, is the advancement by other teams, like Barca, and the money that has poured into the game.
Partly, he has been left behind, but it's partly bad luck that the styles of play adopted be the two different "generations" are the polar opposite. If you switched the two around in time....I actually think todays Arsenal would have walked the Champs league, and the invincibles would be doing a lot better in it now.
Only my opinion of course....
Power n Glory
07-07-2011, 11:14 AM
I don't believe it has anything to do with style or money. Liverpool managed to win the thing and that was Rafa's first season and Man U have won it twice. It has nothing to do with style of play because the Italians don't play like the Spanish, the French don't play like the Germans and so on. Porto, Leverkusen, Inter, Madrid, Barca, Milan, Liverpool, Man Utd....different teams, different styles, different leagues, money spent also varies so you can't say it's the rise of the super rich clubs or a certain style that is successful. It's just about the best team on the day. As seem in our team, we buckle when we're under pressure.
Darth Vela
07-07-2011, 11:16 AM
I think the ultimate plan (and still is in all likelihood) was to get a team that could do both, a team of gritty guys who could grind it out and use a bit of power and pace but with technical ability to pass it around when needed, stranded somewhere between the two which when it works is fucking deadly (like Barca and I'd even lob in the Chelsea and Man U performances, despite the lacklustre displays by both) and when it doesn't it looks worst than most other styles. The new batch of youngsters seems to be able to pull it off, or at least have the potential to, along with some of the others but I think we bit off a bit more than we could chew with trying it in the 'transition' period (haven't heard that one for a while) and ended up with a bit of a mish-mash.
Essentially, this entire team is a gigantic Diaby.
Essentially, this entire team is a gigantic Diaby.
:haha:
I don't believe it has anything to do with style or money. Liverpool managed to win the thing and that was Rafa's first season and Man U have won it twice. It has nothing to do with style of play because the Italians don't play like the Spanish, the French don't play like the Germans and so on. Porto, Leverkusen, Inter, Madrid, Barca, Milan, Liverpool, Man Utd....different teams, different styles, different leagues, money spent also varies so you can't say it's the rise of the super rich clubs or a certain style that is successful. It's just about the best team on the day. As seem in our team, we buckle when we're under pressure.
Sorry, you misunderstood me.
On the money thing, I meant that it seems that investment in football has closed the gap on the power clubs (Juve, AC, Inter etc), whereby advancement in technique, investment in training and fitness etc has made the champs league something very different to six years ago.
As far as style goes, I think it's very important.
You mention Liverpool. one thing Rafa had in spades was the ability to change tactics to suit. Organised, drilled and work-hard players.
Mourinho is another example of that ability; Porto and Inter being a case in point.
Wenger does not adapt his sides, instead chosing one way of playing, and sticking to it rigidly. We don't adapt with the changes from game to game, or indeed from era to era.
Power n Glory
07-07-2011, 11:35 AM
That's just it. The ability to adapt and to be able to surprise your opponents. The one season that we actually did well in the Champions League is when we moved away from our 4-4-2 and stopped trying to dominate possession and just focus on solid defence and counter attacks in a 4-5-1 formation. It took everyone by surprise and we've never played that way again.
That's just it. The ability to adapt and to be able to surprise your opponents. The one season that we actually did well in the Champions League is when we moved away from our 4-4-2 and stopped trying to dominate possession and just focus on solid defence and counter attacks in a 4-5-1 formation. It took everyone by surprise and we've never played that way again.
:good:
Wenger does it now and again. Does something unexpected, tactically, and we end up getting a 1-0 win or something. I never understand why he doesn't do this more often. He can be a genius at times, but tactically, most of the time he resembles a spazzer.
Tipsychubbs
07-07-2011, 11:44 AM
:lol: He use to break records, now he's the biggest broken record of them all!
lol
Tipsychubbs
07-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
That's just it. The ability to adapt and to be able to surprise your opponents. The one season that we actually did well in the Champions League is when we moved away from our 4-4-2 and stopped trying to dominate possession and just focus on solid defence and counter attacks in a 4-5-1 formation. It took everyone by surprise and we've never played that way again.
:good:
Wenger does it now and again. Does something unexpected, tactically, and we end up getting a 1-0 win or something. I never understand why he doesn't do this more often. He can be a genius at times, but tactically, most of the time he resembles a spazzer.
We could dominate if we played this way but apparently its too boring and not pretty enough, it doesn't fit in with the "beautiful game" and Wengers philosophy of "the most attractive football you are ever going to see (tm)" :/
Surely you focus on being solid, hard to beat and defensively sound, BEFORE you play the pretty stuff. Once that foundation is there, like it was in the Invincibles with the defense and central midfield strength, you can then counter attack for fun and play stunning football.
Olivier's xmas twist
07-07-2011, 01:21 PM
I disagree, I categorically think they were wrong. Many of these players were kids, who not only hadn't achieved a thing but also didn't display a great deal of natural ability, it made absolutely no sense to give them big paydays, they didn't cost a lot so even if they did walk away we lost very little, players like Nasri on the other hand cost us what 15 million and thus should be tied down if only to recoup as much as possible if he left.
This all comes down to Wenger's beliefs that everyone should earn similar amounts to keep squad harmony, in fact there is no harmony in the squad despite him constantly referring to great spirit, attitude and togetherness.He seems totally deluded to me.
This...
This should be a lesson to AW this summer and the baord to show, They can't mess around with the stars of the team. They need to be the ones who are looked out for 1st then those who earnd it second.
This is Where AW should wake up and draw the line and start to tream them like men not boys/kids. Be their manager not their Friend/surrogate dad.
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