Wenger - does he even understand whats wrong?

[IBK]

Listening to some pundits on 5 Live discussing who should manage West Ham now, I was struck by the unanimity in fans saying that he should be someone who has played for the club and understands its traditions.

When I look back on the past 6 seasons, I honestly can't say that I have seen players whose heart and soul is in the club (Wilshere apart?).

Wenger inherited this quality when he first arrived. His Invincibles played with players who knew what it meant to play for Arsenal.

We are all agreed that this is what is missing now, when our players, though capable enough, will not fight that extra bit. It has been thrown into sharp relief with the CC final and following debacle this season.

Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%? And never will.

[cheesy bites]

I think he understands it, but falsely believes this team does have that extra 2%.

[IBK]

The problem is that he appears to have lost so much perspective due to his all-powerful position - that it wouldn't surprise me if he has a blind spot like this.

[adzzzbatch]

The players have had an outstanding attitude. We have accumulated disappointments that have had a big impact on the moral of the team. But we are not to go overboard. Maybe one year you will realise that it is not easy to finish in the top four every time.

When will he learn?

[Xhaka Can’t]

When will he learn?

Never. That is why he has to go now.

[IBK]

An outstanding attitude??? Does he even know what that means, and/or how it make him look?

[Özim]

He's doesn't want to understand as he's so adamant his way is the right way. Sometimes it just feels like he's on a crusade to prove people wrong at all costs, he contuinues to do things because people are saying he shouldn't.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

He's doesn't want to understand as he's so adamant his way is the right way. Sometimes it just feels like he's on a crusade to prove people wrong at all costs, he contuinues to do things because people are saying he shouldn't.

Yep You are bang on the money fella

[Fats]

I think he is too involved and has no perspective

[Toronto Gooner]

Listening to some pundits on 5 Live discussing who should manage West Ham now, I was struck by the unanimity in fans saying that he should be someone who has played for the club and understands its traditions.

When I look back on the past 6 seasons, I honestly can't say that I have seen players whose heart and soul is in the club (Wilshere apart?).

Wenger inherited this quality when he first arrived. His Invincibles played with players who knew what it meant to play for Arsenal.

We are all agreed that this is what is missing now, when our players, though capable enough, will not fight that extra bit. It has been thrown into sharp relief with the CC final and following debacle this season.

Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%? And never will.

There are two things in this initial post that have to be commented on.

(1) It is fine and dandy for Wet Sham fans to be united in their desire to have a manager who "who has played for the club and understands its traditions" but coming from a team that has just got relegated and has never won the top division (3rd being the highest), they are not looking for a successful manager.

(2) "Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%?" So, only a successful player can appreciate what is necessary for players they manage to be successful? You had better tell Alex Ferguson that he will never make it as a successful manager because his playing career was so crap.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

(2) "Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%?" So, only a successful player can appreciate what is necessary for players they manage to be successful? You had better tell Alex Ferguson that he will never make it as a successful manager because his playing career was so crap.

I think NS means that people who have had sucess and love for a certain club, would give more for it. AW has no ties to AFC so really owes them nothing maybe in his view, all he is doing is getting paid.

Does AW really have passion for the club? i mean he is no way like King kenny is he, i mean the club has never has an era of dominace has it. Maybe its easier for aw not to win things because its not a requitement at the club and has not really been so unlike UTD.

[Xhaka Can’t]

AW has a passion for the Club. That cannot be disputed in my opinion.

[selassie]

He's doesn't want to understand as he's so adamant his way is the right way. Sometimes it just feels like he's on a crusade to prove people wrong at all costs, he contuinues to do things because people are saying he shouldn't.

This. That's why I've given up on him and want him to go now.

[Toronto Gooner]

I think NS means that people who have had sucess and love for a certain club, would give more for it. AW has no ties to AFC so really owes them nothing maybe in his view, all he is doing is getting paid.

Does AW really have passion for the club? i mean he is no way like King kenny is he, i mean the club has never has an era of dominace has it. Maybe its easier for aw not to win things because its not a requitement at the club and has not really been so unlike UTD.

What a load of bollocks. Were Ferguson and Mourinho successful at the club they played at? [P.S. Trick question.]

In answer to the question: Does Wenger have a passion for the club? The answer is yes but not as a fan who buys tickets. He would have the same passion for which ever club he was managing.

[budesonide]

no he hasn't got a clue --- i'm afraid to say he is a wan*ker.

if this man could insult our intelligence anymore than he has been doing he will!

his own captain has called his philosophy into question. Previous captains (henry and vieira) also did before they got fed up and jumped ship.

Back then people called these guy's motives into question (some even called them mercenaries) and claimed the future was bright. Six years on and the new captain and some squadies are also hinting at the same thing.

Fool me once....

[Marc Overmars]

I'd never question Wenger's commitment to Arsenal FC, I'm sure he's desperate to win just like we are.

The problem is that he has his vision of how a club should be run and is far too stubborn to change the course of how things are going. He's invested so much time emotionally in these players and they consistently let him down. When he talks about their "remarkable spirit" "maturity" etc... who is he trying to kid? He's spoken for 2 years now about our defensive fragility but nothing has changed.

I think he's completely blinded now and set in his ways. I don't expect to win another trophy with him in charge and this contract which ends in 2014 will almost certainly be his last.

[IBK]

@ TG

A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.

[IBK]

Originally Posted by Nasri Scoreng
Listening to some pundits on 5 Live discussing who should manage West Ham now, I was struck by the unanimity in fans saying that he should be someone who has played for the club and understands its traditions.

When I look back on the past 6 seasons, I honestly can't say that I have seen players whose heart and soul is in the club (Wilshere apart?).

Wenger inherited this quality when he first arrived. His Invincibles played with players who knew what it meant to play for Arsenal.

We are all agreed that this is what is missing now, when our players, though capable enough, will not fight that extra bit. It has been thrown into sharp relief with the CC final and following debacle this season.

Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%? And never will.
There are two things in this initial post that have to be commented on.

(1) It is fine and dandy for Wet Sham fans to be united in their desire to have a manager who "who has played for the club and understands its traditions" but coming from a team that has just got relegated and has never won the top division (3rd being the highest), they are not looking for a successful manager.

(2) "Could it be that Wenger, never a really succesful player, simply doesn"t understand that this is the extra 2%?" So, only a successful player can appreciate what is necessary for players they manage to be successful? You had better tell Alex Ferguson that he will never make it as a successful manager because his playing career was so crap.
A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.[/QUOTE]

[Marc Overmars]

The most successful Premier League sides have all been about pace, strength and athleticism. You can't away with another style of Football over here, you just can't because you're not afforded the time and space on the ball. It's quite a unique league and country for Football. I remember when I was on holiday last year in America and we had a little kick around with some Italian students...they were only 15-16 but they were pretty much playing Barca style, one twos, threading balls through etc, we couldn't believe it...you'd never see kids over here playing like that. It's set in our culture here and to go against that grain leaves us fighting a lost cause IMO. Also our moral stance on how the game "should" be played makes us prime targets for teams like Stoke who have taken exception to our beliefs and try that little bit harder against us to put us in our place.

I can't understand why Wenger has overlooked these key attributes to Football over here when his past sides have been so successful because of it.

[Toronto Gooner]

@ TG

A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.

Nasri,

If you comment had been about whether Wenger has the British football genes to succeed, then my response would have been different. However, I read your comment to imply that because he "was not a fan of Arsenal" and/or had not played for Arsenal (like Dalglish is and has for Liverpool), Wenger will never truly succeed.

As for the issue of British style vs Rest of the World style football, I agree that there is a difference, and personally I prefer the latter.

[IBK]

Fair enough. What I meant is that having not played to any real level - the attributes in question are unlikely to have been something that he learnt as a player. Then take his background and character - and you are searching for how they would form part of his make up.

[fari]

@ TG

A curious post.

Like I said, the WHU comments merely got me thinking as to where AW's blind spot might be. I was not suggesting that a successful manager has to have played for the team he manages. Far from it.

Neither was I suggesting that if you haven't played at top level, you can't understand what it takes. I was saying that in Wenger's case, the fact that he hasn't may have prevented him from truly appreciating this aspect of the game.

Since you mention SAF. Lets compare their backgrounds. SAF comes from Scottish football, where if anything passion, heart, fight is more important than anything else - in leagues where talent in in relatively short supply. He has this aspect of the game in his DNA and has woven it into all of his teams with incredible effect. AW's background is in French football, which generally is very different, less tribal in character.

Put succinctly, I can see AW's current style of football being very successful in France - with the game being less frenetic/physical/direct than it tends to be here. I don't claim to be an expert - but I wonder whether this 'character' that we all agree must be present in an EPL winning side is quite as important - relative to skill/technical ability - over the channel.

Now of course, Wenger has managed in England for 15 years now - so you would have thought that he would be well conditioned to the needs of the English game. But as I say, he inherited much of his first league winning side - who knew everything about what fighting for the club meant. He created near-perfection with the Invincibles - many of whom had played with the team he first inherited, and several of whom were truly seasoned players in their own right.

And many of the decisions he has taken in the past 6 years demonstrate a lamentable under-appreciation of these virtues. Look at the players he has signed. On the whole bland as well as young. You get the strong impression that he wants blank canvasses who will follow the Wenger way without challenge. He ships out older players who might mentor his youngsters, then excuses them when they put in spineless performances. A Terry; Ferdinand; Carragher type would tear them a new one on the pitch, in the dressing room.

The fact that AW has set his stall out (so it would seem) on technical ability over all else is, I would submit, ample justification for my question.

great points here. the team doesn't seem to have vocal leaders on the pitch. someone to gee the boys up from time to time.

[Toronto Gooner]

Fair enough. What I meant is that having not played to any real level - the attributes in question are unlikely to have been something that he learnt as a player. Then take his background and character - and you are searching for how they would form part of his make up.

I understand but the same could be said for Ferguson and Mourinho. Conversely, neither Pele nor Maradona were really successful as managers.

[LDG]

'Tis bizarre.

I mean, had brought in Petit, Grimandi etc. He kept Parlour as a mainstay in the side, kept the defence intact. Had he not appreciated those aspects, and was always of the view that it was technique over passion etc, these players would not have been around for as long as they were.

My view has always been that AW wanted to win the CL, and he thought that the only way to do that, was to set us up as a continental outfit. I think after the CL final against Barca, he thought that we weren't technically gifted enough to lift the trophy playing the counter-attacking game we'd become so profficient at.

In actual fact, it wasn't the football. It was purely the belief and tactics that failed to win us that match. Not that we weren't technical enough. Ironically, it's Chelsea, Utd etc winning things, using pace, power, althleticism and technique (something we had in abundance before he changed it all), whereas we've tried the near impossible. Barca are the only side that have been able to carry that off, with money and an already instilled philosophy of football. Even then, I still think Utd will beat them in the CL.

When you train so hard at one thing; pass and move, it is inevitably going to drain confidence from the players when they come up against teams that will happily sit behind the ball, having worked us out long ago. It'll come to the point where they don't believe in what AW is preaching, because it's all so clear on the pitch that we're not winning games we should be, and don't have any winners medals to show for it. Add to that the ignorance toward key features of any team (a defence/GK that can defend when required, a proper captain / motivator, and the ability to change tactics...all of which wouldn't affect his technical philosophy at all), and you're in one almighty shitstorm.

If he wasn't so stubborn, if he actually admitted he was wrong, he could change the way we play quite quickly, and it wouldn't take too long coach some EXTREMELY talented players to use a slightly different philosophy, drill the defence, and add some experience and quality.

He's created his own shitstorm, and I think he's so obssessed, he can't actually dig himself out of it. Pride? Stubborness? Selfishness? He's just become devoid of reality.

[IBK]

I understand but the same could be said for Ferguson and Mourinho. Conversely, neither Pele nor Maradona were really successful as managers.

But we're not dealing in absolutes, are we? I have explained why the relevant attributes are at the heart of SAF. Mourinho may not have played but he is a supremely astute and talented manager who like others is able clearly to assess the needs of the leagues in which he manages.

I am not saying you have to have played to understand...I am saying that AW lately does not appear to understand what is needed and his lack of experience as a winning player may be a factor here.

[IBK]

'Tis bizarre.

I mean, had brought in Petit, Grimandi etc. He kept Parlour as a mainstay in the side, kept the defence intact. Had he not appreciated those aspects, and was always of the view that it was technique over passion etc, these players would not have been around for as long as they were.

My view has always been that AW wanted to win the CL, and he thought that the only way to do that, was to set us up as a continental outfit. I think after the CL final against Barca, he thought that we weren't technically gifted enough to lift the trophy playing the counter-attacking game we'd become so profficient at.

In actual fact, it wasn't the football. It was purely the belief and tactics that failed to win us that match. Not that we weren't technical enough. Ironically, it's Chelsea, Utd etc winning things, using pace, power, althleticism and technique (something we had in abundance before he changed it all), whereas we've tried the near impossible. Barca are the only side that have been able to carry that off, with money and an already instilled philosophy of football. Even then, I still think Utd will beat them in the CL.

When you train so hard at one thing; pass and move, it is inevitably going to drain confidence from the players when they come up against teams that will happily sit behind the ball, having worked us out long ago. It'll come to the point where they don't believe in what AW is preaching, because it's all so clear on the pitch that we're not winning games we should be, and don't have any winners medals to show for it. Add to that the ignorance toward key features of any team (a defence/GK that can defend when required, a proper captain / motivator, and the ability to change tactics...all of which wouldn't affect his technical philosophy at all), and you're in one almighty shitstorm.

If he wasn't so stubborn, if he actually admitted he was wrong, he could change the way we play quite quickly, and it wouldn't take too long coach some EXTREMELY talented players to use a slightly different philosophy, drill the defence, and add some experience and quality.

He's created his own shitstorm, and I think he's so obssessed, he can't actually dig himself out of it. Pride? Stubborness? Selfishness? He's just become devoid of reality.

:gp:

[LDG]

Actually. The more I think about it, them more I'm reading into those quotes about "belief", and "picking ourselves up" and "fighting till the end".

Anyone else think that's all specifically about our philosophy of football, and it being the "way we want to play".

Maybe all this job he does in "picking the players up" after a defeat, is trying to convince them that what they are doing is the right thing?? More about his personal crusade, rather than the "belief" we come to associate or think iof with desire, passion and will to win.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

What a load of bollocks. Were Ferguson and Mourinho successful at the club they played at? [P.S. Trick question.]

In answer to the question: Does Wenger have a passion for the club? The answer is yes but not as a fan who buys tickets. He would have the same passion for which ever club he was managing.

Agree with you, when i asked that, i was not saying i thought AW never had passion i was asking a question in general

[budesonide]

Actually. The more I think about it, them more I'm reading into those quotes about "belief", and "picking ourselves up" and "fighting till the end".

Anyone else think that's all specifically about our philosophy of football, and it being the "way we want to play".

Maybe all this job he does in "picking the players up" after a defeat, is trying to convince them that what they are doing is the right thing?? More about his personal crusade, rather than the "belief" we come to associate or think iof with desire, passion and will to win.

spot on mate.

i believe his players are actually starting to believe the entire system is flawed; hence wenger's constant public declaration in his belief in the team's mental strength and spirit and other bollocks.

cesc said "i sometimes wonder whether i was a better player at 18 than I am now".

tells you all you need to know. His own captain has lost faith in the system. Wenger's rebuttal was what gurantees cesc has that he'll win anything anywher else -- and that if cesc is frustrated because things hasn't gone as he'd like the solution is not just to pack it up. Utter nonsense! The lad has seen the same thing happen over and over again for six years with no sign of improvement; his academy collegues are winning trophies left, right and centre whilst his manager preaches hollow philosophies to all and sundry.

[IBK]

Actually. The more I think about it, them more I'm reading into those quotes about "belief", and "picking ourselves up" and "fighting till the end".

Anyone else think that's all specifically about our philosophy of football, and it being the "way we want to play".

Maybe all this job he does in "picking the players up" after a defeat, is trying to convince them that what they are doing is the right thing?? More about his personal crusade, rather than the "belief" we come to associate or think iof with desire, passion and will to win.

I'll buy into that. Yes, yes I will.

[Toronto Gooner]

Let me throw another (possibly controversial) thought into this discussion. Do we, the fans, really know what is wrong?


I ask that question because we are looking from the outside and have seen the end result, but have we seen what is wrong? For example, eye witnesses to a crime or an accident are notoriously unobservant, and often say what they think has happened rather than what actually happens.

[IBK]

No. We don't. But if we didn't speculate then there would be no forum.

(Got out of bed the wrong side today, TG)?

[LDG]

I wouldn't say we knew with clarity what is wrong within the camp, as only a few people are privvy to that info.

But, we're all eye-witnesess to the fact that our defence is shite, disorganised, and wasn't strengthened when it was most needed, for example.

[Toronto Gooner]

No. We don't. But if we didn't speculate then there would be no forum.

(Got out of bed the wrong side today, TG)?

Nah, just in the mood to stir things up a bit. Get people thinking off at a tangent.

[Toronto Gooner]

I wouldn't say we knew with clarity what is wrong within the camp, as only a few people are privvy to that info.

But, we're all eye-witnesess to the fact that our defence is shite, disorganised, and wasn't strengthened when it was most needed, for example.

Is this the shit defence that had the 4th best record in the EPl, and held Barcelona to just 3 goals, when down to 10 men with about 30 minutes to play?

[LDG]

Is this the shit defence that had the 4th best record in the EPl, and held Barcelona to just 3 goals, when down to 10 men with about 30 minutes to play?

Lol.

No this is the defence that let four in against Newcastle having been four up. The same defence that conspired to bottle it in the dying minutes of a cup final. The same one that has conceded the most league goals from set pieces. The very same defence that was down to one fit CB in January.

[Toronto Gooner]

Lol.

No this is the defence that let four in against Newcastle having been four up. The same defence that conspired to bottle it in the dying minutes of a cup final. The same one that has conceded the most league goals from set pieces. The very same defence that was down to one fit CB in January.

The one fit CB is a reason why the defence did not do well; not an example of its crappiness.

[LDG]

The one fit CB is a reason why the defence did not do well; not an example of its crappiness.

Tbf, I did originally say (#33) that our defence was shite, disorganised and not strengthened when most needed.

[Özim]

Is this the shit defence that had the 4th best record in the EPl, and held Barcelona to just 3 goals, when down to 10 men with about 30 minutes to play?
Barca should have scored a hatful at the Nou Camp but their finishing was poor, they had the chances though so the 3 goals stat is a little misleading. On a good day we'd have been thumped 6-1.

[Özim]

The one fit CB is a reason why the defence did not do well; not an example of its crappiness.
It's always possible to find excuses, the defensive problems have been around for years though and have never been addressed properly.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It's always possible to find excuses, the defensive problems have been around for years though and have never been addressed properly.

Yeah, if were half as good as sorting out problems as we are at finding excuses, we'd be world beaters. But as it's easier to blame circumstances and everything else, we're not.

[Power n Glory]

Let me throw another (possibly controversial) thought into this discussion. Do we, the fans, really know what is wrong?


I ask that question because we are looking from the outside and have seen the end result, but have we seen what is wrong? For example, eye witnesses to a crime or an accident are notoriously unobservant, and often say what they think has happened rather than what actually happens.

As LDG said, you can see what's wrong down on the pitch and it's having a knock on effect with the players. They don't have the confidence, they're frustrated, lack guidance, lack leadership but our manager has a firm belief in his philosophy and nobody can tell him other wise. If you look at the team, read the quotes from some players, compare us to Championship winning teams and you can see what needs changing. How we go about it is a different matter and their are probably many solutions to our problems but we're going down the same path every year.

- We don't have a world class keeper. We shouldn't have to depend on Szczesny and Fabianski.
- Our defence is too young. We don't have a single CB with solid premiership experience. Such CB's will make mistakes. Throw an inexperienced goalkeeper in the mix along with wingbacks that like to bomb forwards and you've got exposed defence ready for the taking.
- We can't defend set pieces. Corners and free kick crosses are always a danger for us. With such a young defence, they have no idea how to organise a defence so that's not surprising.
- We're no good at scoring from set pieces or crosses. We've seen Clichy and Sagna's poor attempts and the amount of times the box is empty when a good ball is eventually delivered. If we can't deliver a decent cross, then how are our defenders supposed to learn how to defend against such threats in training?

- We've got a load of players playing outside of their natural position. Gibbs is not a left back, Arshavin is not a winger, same goes for Nasri and Rosicky. They're more like central attacking midfielders. Cesc is a central midfield player and not an attacking midfield type player suited to play in the hole. Nobody would play Xavi, Xabi Alonso or Pirlo further up field to link up with the striker like Gerrard used to do with Torres.

- Walcott isn't a right winger. He's not great with the ball at his feet. Has no tricks, just pace but he's had to work damn hard at learning that role.

- Bendter is not a winger.

- We're too one dimensional. We stick to short passing, always play ball to feet and never try to exploit space. When teams sit deep it's difficult, but our counter attacks are none existent these day. We take our time getting up the field.

- Tactically, Wenger is pretty poor. When looking for a goal, he just throws on more attacking players without actually changing formation or approach to our attack. It's just more of the same. If an opposing wingback is on a yellow card, we won't focus our attacks on that weak side. You'll hardly see Theo swap flanks to go down the left to trouble one of their defenders.....etc.

With these sort of problems, players lose confidence. What we do to sort it is a different matter. Change players, change manager, change coaching staff....I'm open to whatever as long as I see a change somewhere in our approach.

[Arsenal Fan]

my opinion is, im not sure.

[The Wengerbabies]

Yes. We lack a little bit sharpness.

[Unai Tea]

It's difficult to say. You could make the argument that he doesn't know what he's doing or what's going wrong. 6 trophy-less years provide evidence and the fact that he doesn't get the players, or play the system or manages the game like we think he should at times can be used to support this.

But.

He loves the club although this may be due to the fact that he has a free reign to do as he pleases and to try to play the style of football he appreciates.

We don't know the extent to which his embargo on buying the players who might make the difference is board-imposed or self-imposed. He gets alot of stick for the 'youth project' but when considering the financial reality of football today, it would appear to be a sound and long-sighted strategy (and one which may, in theory, pay dividends when fair play rules come in). You can hardly blame a manager for sticking with young players and players who just haven't broken through when the funding isn't there to buy other players. Maybe it's all his hare-brained idea or maybe he's playing the hand he's been dealt the best he can.

He's managed to build a side which is in the top 4 year in and year out although spending minimally on new players. When you do that, you're a prisoner to a greater or lesser extent to one or two personality issues. If you can't cycle players in and out like Man city or chelsea, one or two losers in the side can drag the rest down.

He's been managing football for a long time, has been an innovator in his day and it's hard to believe he's only of average understanding. He's a perceptive and studious man and it would be hard to believe he doesn't understand the issues at hand. But understanding and fixing, or being able to easily fix, are two different things.

Much of what he says in interviews, which enrage many fans and lead them to suspect he's an ignoramous, aren't meant for us. Rather the statements he makes are meant for his team and for other teams vis-a-vis the transfer market.

Personally, I believe he understands the problems but has a commitment to a style of play, is limited in terms of financial wherewithal and says only what he feels has the best impact on his team or what will help him get a better price in transfer negotiations.

[ElusiveGooner]

As for the issue of British style vs Rest of the World style football, I agree that there is a difference, and personally I prefer the latter.

It's not a case of preference, but more of winning football. As Marc Overmars mentioned before, Wenger's best teams were built on a solid 'British mentality' base, and then added to with continental football.

Wenger's current team have all the continental aspects, but none of the traditional british ones (Strength, stamina, determination). We lack a Tony Adams like figure in the team to address these issues on the pitch.

It's the English Premier League, we should focus on building a team to succeed in this environment. Instead of complaining that the other 19 teams in our league should play more 'Beautiful' football.

This is the basic fault of Wenger. He wants everybody else in Football to adopt his approach (rather than a more pragmatic - if you cant beat them, then join them attitude).

It's Wengers main character flaw and it is preventing him from making the required changes. Thats why he has to go. Now.

[ElusiveGooner]

Yes. We lack a little bit sharpness.

:haha:

[Özim]

All you hear from him these days is how we play the right way and we do the right things and financially we are sensible etc etc..., he's become a bit of a preacher trying to convince everyone it's all OK because our way is the only way.

When teams don't play the way he believes they should, he complains and rather than thinking about it and maybe realising that they're not going to change and we have to, he ignores everything he see's and continues to follow the same path.

At what point does someone look at something and say i've tried but it doesn't work let's try something different, by now most people would have but it seems to me he simply won't.

He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.

[selassie]

All you hear from him these days is how we play the right way and we do the right things and financially we are sensible etc etc..., he's become a bit of a preacher trying to convince everyone it's all OK because our way is the only way.

When teams don't play the way he believes they should, he complains and rather than thinking about it and maybe realising that they're not going to change and we have to, he ignores everything he see's and continues to follow the same path.

At what point does someone look at something and say i've tried but it doesn't work let's try something different, by now most people would have but it seems to me he simply won't.

He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.

:gp:

This

[Obiwan Kenobinil]

You all sound like Chelsea fans tbf. :yawn:

[Obiwan Kenobinil]

He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.

So...it was the fans who turned the clubs fortunes round from being mid table shit kickers in winning stuff and being good??

Cool.

[Toronto Gooner]

He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.

So...it was the fans who turned the clubs fortunes round from being mid table shit kickers in winning stuff and being good??

Cool.

Of course it was the fans, and not the players and manager, who won the games and scored the goals. But it was the players and manager who let in the goals.;)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think, when you hear the guy speak like he did for instance about Man Utd vs Barcelona then I find it very hard to believe he isn't someone who fails to understand what is happening. The fact he hasn't done a huge amount to rectify it though, is the baffling part.

[LDG]

Toronto Gooner ;

No, they just part with their hard earned cash, seeing it frittered away on massive wage bills, on a team which Wenger refuses to correct the obvious.

TG, I know you like to look at the other perspective, but even you must admitt there are basic errors that need addressing. And given the fans patience in paying for the highest price ticket in the world....can you not afford them/us a little bit of anger at the way things have gone??

[Marc Overmars]

I think, when you hear the guy speak like he did for instance about Man Utd vs Barcelona then I find it very hard to believe he isn't someone who fails to understand what is happening. The fact he hasn't done a huge amount to rectify it though, is the baffling part.

That's just it really. He is as intelligent as they come and has spoken several times about our defensive downfall, but we actually seem to get worse in this area rather than improve. After 5 years you think we'd be talking about something different now but we're not. We're not a million miles away but it feels like we are because there's nothing to suggest we can learn from the mistakes of the past. We can't seriously expect to succeed conceding around 40 goals a season.

[Özim]

He goes on about doing things the right way and then ignores the fact the fans are treated very poorly and with very little respect, yet they're the ones who have made the financial side viable in the 1st place, double standards if you ask me.

So...it was the fans who turned the clubs fortunes round from being mid table shit kickers in winning stuff and being good??

Cool.
a) I was referring the financial side which is primarily income from the fans
b) We won stuff before Wenger let's get that clear, Graham won a number of trophies (Rioch moved us towards the top half of the table as well)

Anyway Wenger did amazingly in his first spell there's no debating that, but at this stage if the fans didn't pay those ridiculous prices Wenger wouldn't be able to do whatever it is he does. You've got to feel sorry for those guys, they're getting shortchanged big time.

What's worse is they get very little respect, it's like it or lump it.....they couldn't really care less if they're happy or not as long as there's money rolling in.....a sad state of affairs if you ask me.

[Toronto Gooner]

Toronto Gooner ;

No, they just part with their hard earned cash, seeing it frittered away on massive wage bills, on a team which Wenger refuses to correct the obvious.

TG, I know you like to look at the other perspective, but even you must admitt there are basic errors that need addressing. And given the fans patience in paying for the highest price ticket in the world....can you not afford them/us a little bit of anger at the way things have gone??

Agreed the fans part with their hard earned cash to watch the team they support. But tell me how the fans have been "treated very poorly and with very little respect,"? Yes, the wage bill is high but I read a recent blog which stated that the wage bill includes all the backroom staff which other clubs apparently do not do. I cannot say whether this is true or not but it would put the bill into perspective if it is.

As for the price of the ticket, I presume that you are referring to the cost of a season ticket. Yes, Arsenal's most expensive season ticket is very, very high but
(1) How many are there at that price? (compared to other clubs)
(2) Do the other clubs include tickets to cup matches like Arsenal? (I read that Man U does not)
(3) What is the average price of a season ticket?
(4) Arsenal's cheapest gameday ticket is cheaper that Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea, and only £1 more expensive than Man U's.

Yes, the fans are right to feel let down but sometimes I think that the anger is a little OTT.

A quick comparison, the cheapest season ticket for the New York Giants (NFL) is US$85 (£52) per game, with a personal seat license costing US$1,000.

[Niall_Quinn]

Or put another way, the whole of sport is just crazy now.

[LDG]

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/fever-pitch-screening-at-emirates-stadium


Packed!

[Darth Vela]

I think he knows what's wrong as much as any fan does given his comments about our set-piece issues and weak mentality, he was trying to bring in that extra 2% with guys like Vermaelen and Koscielny (i.e. guys with a bit of determination) at the back and Chamakh up top (someone who's won titles, even if they're French, and has top level experience) but failed. Now he's going to try and bring it in again with changing up the squad and presumably bringing in more experience again, he needs to get it right as this'll be the 3rd straight year of failure imo and that needs to change.

[Maestro]

:)
http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/fever-pitch-screening-at-emirates-stadium


Packed!

[Elreactor]

To be fair, I think Wenger knows what happens, and he knows it well. But somehow the guy has deep mixed emotions as to the best way to fix (at least the major) problems. For example, of all the "failed" young prospects, how many of them has he actually sold, instead of letting their contracts expire? What would happen if either Denilson or Bendtner didn´t express their desire to leave the club? He tends to stick with players (his not-to-disrupt-squad philosophy), even if he knows they won´t contribute to the team as much as he had thought, and just sits (or loan) them until they fade away.

Or maybe he hasn´t got a clue after all. :unsure:

[IBK]

I think he knows what's wrong as much as any fan does given his comments about our set-piece issues and weak mentality, he was trying to bring in that extra 2% with guys like Vermaelen and Koscielny (i.e. guys with a bit of determination) at the back and Chamakh up top (someone who's won titles, even if they're French, and has top level experience) but failed. Now he's going to try and bring it in again with changing up the squad and presumably bringing in more experience again, he needs to get it right as this'll be the 3rd straight year of failure imo and that needs to change.

As always - a logical argument, but I'm not sure I reach quite the same conclusion. The team's defensive vulnerability - particularly to set pieces - could be seen by a child. I'm not sure I have seen any comments demonstrating his acknowledgment that we do not utilise our offensive set pieces properly. We sure as hell don't seem to train for them!

AW may be looking to bring in players to try to solve the issue, but he's been trying that for 4 years and it hasn't worked. Look how many CB's he's been through (in itself not a good sign in the position where stability is needed most). I think your suggested solution almost justifies my question - because I am far from convinced that its an issue of personnel. I believe it to be an issue of having a proper defensive coach, and playing more effectively as a team when it comes to defend.

So I think my question still stands..

[Niall_Quinn]

To be fair, I think Wenger knows what happens, and he knows it well. But somehow the guy has deep mixed emotions as to the best way to fix (at least the major) problems. For example, of all the "failed" young prospects, how many of them has he actually sold, instead of letting their contracts expire? What would happen if either Denilson or Bendtner didn´t express their desire to leave the club? He tends to stick with players (his not-to-disrupt-squad philosophy), even if he knows they won´t contribute to the team as much as he had thought, and just sits (or loan) them until they fade away.

Or maybe he hasn´t got a clue after all. :unsure:

Arsene thinks he's building a family, not a team. He should be a foster parent not a football manager.

[Fist of Lehmann]

I think, when you hear the guy speak like he did for instance about Man Utd vs Barcelona then I find it very hard to believe he isn't someone who fails to understand what is happening. The fact he hasn't done a huge amount to rectify it though, is the baffling part.

So...then...you find it easy to believe he IS someone who fails to understand what's happening?

:unsure:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

So...then...you find it easy to believe he IS someone who fails to understand what's happening?

:unsure:

Yeah I noticed I had put isn't by accident.

[Newguy]

Arsene thinks he's building a family, not a team. He should be a foster parent not a football manager.

Exactly, thats the flaw of this project of his, he thought that the players would grow together and form some sort of "remember the titans" bond. Delusion in this day and age, especially when the majority of the players he brought in and were not coming up through the academy from a young age.

[Ironing]

I don't think he does understand what's wrong (what is wrong btw?)

From my perspective we've been a lot luckier with injuries this season - in that points were not dropped due to players being out. The second half of the season, when we capitulated, we had Van Persie playing nearly every game. When Vermin was injured earlier on in the season, I remember doing just fine for a good while. Same for when Fab and Nas were out - we didn't miss them as we have missed our 'bigger' players in previous seasons. Walcott was definitely a bit of a blow, but as most people realise by now, it's not about the '1st choice' 11, but about the squad, and in my eyes we had the squad to cope.

My overriding point is this: YES some of our players aren't good enough, YES we had injuries (like always) - but I don't see how the connection between these two things, and being the best team in the country for the first half of the season, and falling to shit in the second.

So what is wrong then? It HAS to come down to 'mentality', ironically a word you would be hard pressed not to find in one of Wenger's post-match interviews or The Official Manager's Email™

[Power n Glory]

Agreed the fans part with their hard earned cash to watch the team they support. But tell me how the fans have been "treated very poorly and with very little respect,"? Yes, the wage bill is high but I read a recent blog which stated that the wage bill includes all the backroom staff which other clubs apparently do not do. I cannot say whether this is true or not but it would put the bill into perspective if it is.

As for the price of the ticket, I presume that you are referring to the cost of a season ticket. Yes, Arsenal's most expensive season ticket is very, very high but
(1) How many are there at that price? (compared to other clubs)
(2) Do the other clubs include tickets to cup matches like Arsenal? (I read that Man U does not)
(3) What is the average price of a season ticket?
(4) Arsenal's cheapest gameday ticket is cheaper that Liverpool, Man City and Chelsea, and only £1 more expensive than Man U's.

Yes, the fans are right to feel let down but sometimes I think that the anger is a little OTT.

A quick comparison, the cheapest season ticket for the New York Giants (NFL) is US$85 (£52) per game, with a personal seat license costing US$1,000.

So our wage bill isn't that high because we include staff wages in the report. Why do that? Everyone is under the impression that we can't afford the wages of certain players because it's already high. If that's not the case then I'd say the board and Wenger are pulling a fast one. Since Henry, Dennis and co left, our wage bill must have gone down but we they perpetuate this notion of us being stretched at the seams and having to count every penat. Why include the staff wages in these reports?

[Darth Vela]

As always - a logical argument, but I'm not sure I reach quite the same conclusion. The team's defensive vulnerability - particularly to set pieces - could be seen by a child. I'm not sure I have seen any comments demonstrating his acknowledgment that we do not utilise our offensive set pieces properly. We sure as hell don't seem to train for them!

AW may be looking to bring in players to try to solve the issue, but he's been trying that for 4 years and it hasn't worked. Look how many CB's he's been through (in itself not a good sign in the position where stability is needed most). I think your suggested solution almost justifies my question - because I am far from convinced that its an issue of personnel. I believe it to be an issue of having a proper defensive coach, and playing more effectively as a team when it comes to defend.

So I think my question still stands..

Bugger, could have sworn I'd already replied to this, see if I can remember what I said.

I see the problem as being a lack of 'gamecraft' as much as anything else i.e. knowing when to sit a little deeper and defend like your life depended on it and knowing when to stream forwards, as well as a bit of a weakness on set-pieces. Experienced players tend to have better gamecraft than youngsters and this is the kind of mentality we need more of in our squad, more experience will help the mental side of the game imo. If we do that and spend some time on the training ground trying to learn how to defend a set-piece then we'll be set up nicely (although I'm more sceptical about us actually working on things in training personally...).

It's either the balance of the personnel is off (in terms of mentality, we've got the talent more or less covered) imo or else there really is a deeper rot in the club and the fact we get so close to winning trophies is something of a minor miracle. I think it's worth asking the question when we fail so emphatically at roughly the same point every season, it's not a coincidence and given that this failure is far worse than before as it was mostly our first 11 failing miserably so it will probably engender a bigger clearout in the summer. As you say, if we can't freshen it up with personnel then we're pretty screwed as there won't be sweeping changes in the style or training system.

[IBK]

Good points DV - but how do you explain that we had the requisite 'gamecraft' to arrive in March with our seaon very much intact, but then lost it thereafter?

When the mentality was right, but then wasn't, this to me would suggest that it is a question of fighting spirit or mentality. I accept that relevant experience may serve to help cope with pressure - but when you look at the fact that we had the ability to beat Manure in the middle of our disastrous run in (and I struggle to believe that that was solely down to the 'pressure' being off), to me you are looking at players who are treating the 'big games' differently from the so-called bankers. We saw this in the CC final - the beginning of the rot, and I feel that too many of our pampered players felt sorry for themselves/did not show up subsequently.

I am convinced that at least part of this problem is having mercenaries or pure 'professionals' of the type AW prefers, rather than players who realise what it means to play for the club; how much it means to the fans; a feeling of a common, rather than a purely selfish cause; an identity.

And while I agree with Letters that 'loyalty' is a thing of the past. Manure have shown season after season, that you can build the above attributes into your foreign contingent.

So we are back to my OP, and whether AW, with his background, really understands this (or has understood it up to this point). Because you can adopt a scientific; stats-based; professorial approach to the game and your signings - but the beauty of football is that passion; motivation; identity will make up the marging between winning and being an also ran.


PS Then again - if the rumours of Viera coming back in a coaching role turn out to be correct, maybe this penny has finally dropped for wenger.

[fari]

wow dude...you made some good points there. seems like you have really thought dispassionately and objectively about the situation. sometimes it's hard for us fans to do so. i too would like to see paddy v back at the club although what exactly his role would be remains to be seen (is he coming to coach youngsters or help with the 1st team???)

[IBK]

Another point that I think has been missed, is that for all his experience, AW simply hasn't faced this situation before. A situation where his methods/vision hasn't worked and he is under unprecedented pressure to deliver to the expectations of a big club (even though those expectations may be his own, more than the board's).

Monaco and Grampus 8 would not have brought this pressure. Prior to 2005 he was (SAF excepted) top of the tree. Post 2005 he could, until now, have been excused by virtue of his need to re-build.

He is now exposed, and must be feeling disillusioned and perhaps nonplussed as to how a team on which he has lavished so much effort and belief, and that undoubtedly had the footballing ability to succeed, failed so spectacularly. For me, it really isn't difficult to imagine him on the shakiest ground that he has been on, in terms of his own understanding of how to address the team's problems. All managers can bring in players. The big question is what AW is capable of doing in other areas - and whether he truly knows what to do. Because this ain't happened to him before.

[Darth Vela]

Good points DV - but how do you explain that we had the requisite 'gamecraft' to arrive in March with our seaon very much intact, but then lost it thereafter?

When the mentality was right, but then wasn't, this to me would suggest that it is a question of fighting spirit or mentality. I accept that relevant experience may serve to help cope with pressure - but when you look at the fact that we had the ability to beat Manure in the middle of our disastrous run in (and I struggle to believe that that was solely down to the 'pressure' being off), to me you are looking at players who are treating the 'big games' differently from the so-called bankers. We saw this in the CC final - the beginning of the rot, and I feel that too many of our pampered players felt sorry for themselves/did not show up subsequently.

I am convinced that at least part of this problem is having mercenaries or pure 'professionals' of the type AW prefers, rather than players who realise what it means to play for the club; how much it means to the fans; a feeling of a common, rather than a purely selfish cause; an identity.

And while I agree with Letters that 'loyalty' is a thing of the past. Manure have shown season after season, that you can build the above attributes into your foreign contingent.

So we are back to my OP, and whether AW, with his background, really understands this (or has understood it up to this point). Because you can adopt a scientific; stats-based; professorial approach to the game and your signings - but the beauty of football is that passion; motivation; identity will make up the marging between winning and being an also ran.


PS Then again - if the rumours of Viera coming back in a coaching role turn out to be correct, maybe this penny has finally dropped for wenger.

Fair point, I think it's something we need more of but if it was working at one point then it does suggest something just turns off in our players heads when the pressure is on rather than an all-round failure. Agree with the rest of what you said, although fwiw I think some of the younger guys have more of an idea of what it requires and what is expected, guys like Szczesny and Wilshere, with Lansbury maybe coming into the first team squad, how much that's worth when they're still only young I don't know though. I think it may have been something of an oversight from Wenger, he obviously understands the part that mentality takes in football so you'd think he'd know a little about the passion and drive although guys who are that driven about something often assume those around them are as driven without seeing the truth that it's not standard issue to everyone.

[budesonide]

Another point that I think has been missed, is that for all his experience, AW simply hasn't faced this situation before. A situation where his methods/vision hasn't worked and he is under unprecedented pressure to deliver to the expectations of a big club (even though those expectations may be his own, more than the board's).

Monaco and Grampus 8 would not have brought this pressure. Prior to 2005 he was (SAF excepted) top of the tree. Post 2005 he could, until now, have been excused by virtue of his need to re-build.

He is now exposed, and must be feeling disillusioned and perhaps nonplussed as to how a team on which he has lavished so much effort and belief, and that undoubtedly had the footballing ability to succeed, failed so spectacularly. For me, it really isn't difficult to imagine him on the shakiest ground that he has been on, in terms of his own understanding of how to address the team's problems. All managers can bring in players. The big question is what AW is capable of doing in other areas - and whether he truly knows what to do. Because this ain't happened to him before.


He tried the same experiment with monaco after he won the ligue 1 with them. Suffice to say he was sacked when he turned them into a journeymans club like he's done with us. He soon found himself in the backwater of football management in the japanese league where david dein got him.

[IBK]

That bodes well, then!

[Cripps_orig]

Tottenham Hotspur defender William Gallas believes Arsene Wenger made a mistake in letting him leave Arsenal.
Gallas (http://topics.skysports.com/William+Gallas/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif departed Emirates Stadium for bitter rivals Spurs last summer after failing to agree a new contract with the Gunners.
And the 33-year-old demonstrated he can still cut it in the Premier League following a solid debut season at White Hart Lane.
Of his decision to part company with the Gunners, Gallas told L'Equipe: "I left Arsenal (http://topics.skysports.com/arsenal/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif because we could not agree on a financial level.
"They decided to not make the effort to keep me, it is a choice I respect, and they respected the fact I didn't want the wages they proposed.
Wrong

"In the street, Arsenal's fans asked me why I left. The coach thought I was a finished player. I proved he was wrong."
Gallas endured a controversial time at Arsenal, in particular during his period as captain of the club.
Reflecting on his much-publicised clashes with a number of his former Gunners team-mates, he said: "When I was captain I wanted to give a message, but they didn't get it.
"I may have been clumsy, but the substance was right.
Ugly duckling

"I came from Chelsea (http://topics.skysports.com/chelsea/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif where I won titles, and I wanted to share my experience, because I thought we missed commitment in our work.
"My message has not been understood and I am also responsible for that. But unfortunately the last season showed that team still misses something.
"It is too easy to say all the Arsenal problems came from William Gallas."
Gallas also commented on his relationship with French compatriot Samir Nasri, (http://topics.skysports.com/Samir+Nasri/?section=football)http://static.lingospot.com/spot/image/spacer.gif the pair having fallen out after a dispute over France's Euro 2008 campaign.
He stated: "Samir Nasri? People tried to show me as an ugly duckling, but the images showed the contrary. Samir Nasri knows the problem. He can't lie to himself."


Didnt want to start a new thread but i agree with Gallas.

Wenger made a mistake letting him go. He played well for Spuds and hes better than all of our CBs

[selassie]

Didnt want to start a new thread but i agree with Gallas.

Wenger made a mistake letting him go. He played well for Spuds and hes better than all of our CBs

IMHO He's not better than Vermaelen, but I agree he's better than everybody else.

I think Kos or Djourou have some way to go before they get to his level.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Didnt want to start a new thread but i agree with Gallas.

Wenger made a mistake letting him go. He played well for Spuds and hes better than all of our CBs

Wengers Mistake was not replacing him/ not letting him go. Had we replaced with with a top notch CB Gallas would still be an after thought.

[Cripps_orig]

Wengers Mistake was not replacing him/ not letting him go. Had we replaced with with a top notch CB Gallas would still be an after thought.

Well we did buy 2 CBs last summer

They did well.....:lol:

[IBK]

Maybe the original mistake was giving him the captaincy...

I have to say that Gallas' feelings look a bit more justified now.

[Cripps_orig]

Under Gallas' captaincy, we came the closest to winning the title since we last won it.

For all of his shenanigans after that Brum game, it was after the game and didnt cost us that match. Clichy and inept officiating did.

But the same problems we had that season is the same problems we have now.

We have made no improvements in the 3 years and in fact imo we are worse.

Wenger needs to go

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Well we did buy 2 CBs last summer

They did well.....:lol:

hence i said a top notch one.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

:rose: Arsenal captain curse strikes again

to be fair Gallas isn't the worst captain we've had......neither is he the grumpiest

[Kano]

gallas needed to be kicked out and thank god he was. he played for a team with a worse defence than ours so hes not shown any improvement and reason for us to regret it

[Marc Overmars]

Gallas did become a bit of a broken record but I always felt we needed more people with his attitude. Instead he was alienated because he wasn't a Wengerbot and had a voice of his own.

Having said that, his antics at the end of the Birmingham game (why the fuck is it always them, eh?) were very embarrassing and he dug his own grave from there on.

[Kano]

their is a fine line between a winning attitude and having an attitude which gallas certainly has. in a team full of cunts like chelsea he had other super cunts to supersede him. whether captain or not at arsenal he was one of the few senior players in the team, a rare chance to really show what a mature man he may have been. but he wasn't, he was just a knob in decline

[budesonide]

whether captain or not at arsenal he was one of the few senior players in the team, a rare chance to really show what a mature man he may have been. but he wasn't, he was just a knob in decline

not easy to do, when the team is full of overpaid youngsters who have won nothing to prove themselves except the pampering of a deluded manager. Henry's body language on the pitch in his last years is also testament to that.

[Kano]

henry was a moody twat even when the team were at the top, being the main man only let him dwell in it. he continued as usual at barca but wasn't indulged as he was in a winning team again.

if you are mature enough then you wont look for excuses from others to explain your own failings. it's not easy to have the pressure mostly on your shoulders but whether you can carry it or not is a mark of your character. we see gallas' loud and clear.

[budesonide]

henry was a moody twat even when the team were at the top, being the main man only let him dwell in it. he continued as usual at barca but wasn't indulged as he was in a winning team again.

if you are mature enough then you wont look for excuses from others to explain your own failings. it's not easy to have the pressure mostly on your shoulders but whether you can carry it or not is a mark of your character. we see gallas' loud and clear.

henry was never moody with his teammates in the invincible team -- why? because they were winners whether or not he was captain. At barcelona it was understandable that a player of his billing would get annoyed when he was being underused and being subtituted into matches with just minutes to go.

and, gallas's record prior to joining us was almost impeccable (at chelsea he only took issue with mourihno thinking he could play him as fullback on a regular basis). I remember when we signed him it was deemed a major coup in almost all of football circles.

[Kano]

henry was very moody, it just was on show less because of other big personalties. at chelsea and france gallas looked great with makelele in front of him....then we all saw a big difference in both teams when he retired. he was a good player and is ok now but nothing more. people were quick to say we got the better end of the deal because they were so desperate to be rid of cole. most football fans are fickle idiots but you're not allowed to criticise fans. it only works one way.

[budesonide]

henry was very moody, it just was on show less because of other big personalties. at chelsea and france gallas looked great with makelele in front of him....then we all saw a big difference in both teams when he retired. he was a good player and is ok now but nothing more. people were quick to say we got the better end of the deal because they were so desperate to be rid of cole. most football fans are fickle idiots but you're not allowed to criticise fans. it only works one way.

Could you describe this moodiness of henry back then? And while we are at it, we could also say messi is good because he has xavi and iniesta behind him, after all he does not perform the same way for his country. I am sure that will sound ridiculous but that's also influenced by one's degree of subjectivity.

[Kano]

his posturing and arrogance. both elements that made him such an amazing player but also his faults, as is much the same with many of the game's greats. no real problem with that, it's just part and parcel of who he was, no one is perfect right?

if messi leaves or stays and the midfield behind him changes, then we can judge him every week and until then you're right, it is a ridiculous comparison.

[budesonide]

his posturing and arrogance. both elements that made him such an amazing player but also his faults, as is much the same with many of the game's greats. no real problem with that, it's just part and parcel of who he was, no one is perfect right?

if messi leaves or stays and the midfield behind him changes, then we can judge him every week and judge until then you're right, it is a ridiculous comparison.


I am afraid you are the one making ridiculous comparisons and assertions. I was drawing a parallel between henry's frustrated and beleagured figure in his last few years with us in similar circumstances as gallas found himself.

You got this discussion to where it is now with questionably spurious lines of 'logic'. You are essentially hinging gallas's entire cv on makelele's presence in teams he's played in.

[Xhaka Can’t]

his posturing and arrogance. both elements that made him such an amazing player but also his faults, as is much the same with many of the game's greats. no real problem with that, it's just part and parcel of who he was, no one is perfect right?



Dennis Bergkamp was perfect! :angry:

[Kano]

@budes
if that's how you read it fair enough it's not important enough to keep banging on about it

[budesonide]

Dennis Bergkamp was perfect! :angry:

and so is messi :angry: considering the kicks the poor guy takes in a single match. If a small guy like that got kicked that much anywhere else outside football, the perpetrators would be in danger of charges of aggravated assault lol

[V-Pig]

Messi is a pygmy cunt.

[budesonide]

Messi is a pygmy cunt.

i don't know, to me, he is the greatest ambassador for the game today -- his talent and mercurial ability, combined with his honest but palpable earnestness and enthusiam for what he does makes him a joy to watch. He is special and evrything that every footballer should aspire to be.

[Cripps_orig]

Messi is a pygmy cunt.

Thats probably your best post on here tbh

In fact if you include all the posts on the old GW, its better than all of those as well

There may be hope for you yet

[Cripps_orig]

i don't know, to me, he is the greatest ambassador for the game today -- his talent and mercurial ability, combined with his honest but palpable earnestness and enthusiam for what he does makes him a joy to watch. He is special and evrything that every footballer should aspire to be.

Im not as good as footballer as he and never will be but i believe i can dive, hold my face and roll around just as good as him

[budesonide]

Im not as good as footballer as he and never will be but i believe i can dive, hold my face and roll around just as good as him

in fact he is one of the few players you cannot tar wuth that brush. He is one of the most honest players playing today -- that may not be saying much, but for what he does with the ball on the pitch it is a miracle he is not known mainly for the dark arts of the game.

[Cripps_orig]

Youre kidding, right?

Does it most games and ive always said hes everything that is wrong with football today and its a shame cos he is a talented player

[Niall_Quinn]

and so is messi :angry: considering the kicks the poor guy takes in a single match. If a small guy like that got kicked that much anywhere else outside football, the perpetrators would be in danger of charges of aggravated assault lol

Oops, think you made an error there. Messi, as we know, is a fucking horrible slimy piece if vermin shit filth cunt stain, but you mistakenly implied he was perfect.

[V-Pig]

He's not as bad as Biscuits, but I've seen Messi roll around feigning injury plenty. Maybe he gets tackled a lot and is angry about that, but he's still a cheating cunt.

[Xhaka Can’t]

He's not as bad as Biscuits, but I've seen Messi roll around feigning injury plenty. Maybe he gets tackled a lot and is angry about that, but he's still a cheating cunt.
Plenty is an anagram of pelanty if it had an 'a' in it.

[The Wengerbabies]

He's not as bad as Biscuits, but I've seen Messi roll around feigning injury plenty. Maybe he gets tackled a lot and is angry about that, but he's still a cheating cunt.
Thats the thing while he is bad for it he's not the worst at Barca so it get overlooked.

[Fist of Lehmann]

If there's one player on their books who needs a kick in his skanky little cheating face it's Trani Alves.

Then Pusquets, the Prique, then Pusquests again. :good: