Coronavirus Pandemic

[Ollie the Optimist]

You’re right that we need to get back to normal as soon as possible, but I don’t think mandating vaccines is necessary to do that.
I now know quite a few people with Covid. None of them are in hospital because they’re all relatively young and healthy. Why should they be made to have a vaccine?
It’s older people who are going to be clogging up hospitals but even then you don’t need everyone in that age group to be vaccinated to take the strain off the NHS.
You don’t need mass vaccination to return to normal life.
Mandating it is crossing quite a big line.

I think you are right. Perhaps a concern would be if people dont take the vaccine, the government faces a choice of either continue lockdowns or mandatory vaccine.

Neither are appealing options that is for sure but I’m not quite sure that if the vaccines were mandated, suddenly the streets will be full of nazis like NQ suggests.

I suspect in the UK most will take the vaccine but i think some countries have real issues, particularly France with anti Vaxxers. It’ll be interesting to see how they deal with it but judging at their current rate of vaccinating only 450 people (compared to 1.3million here), they need to really convince people to get the vaccine

[I am invisible]

It seems the only way out of this is through the vaccine.

In order to return to normal life, would you support the government making this a mandatory vaccination to ensure everyone gets it?

Normally i would be against making things like that mandatory but i think in this case, as it is the only way to get back to normal, it might be a price worth paying
You can’t make it mandatory - that would set a hideous legal precedent.

What you can do is keep all current restrictions, personal protective requirements and penalties in place for everyone until such time as you are either vaccinated or the R number is smashed down to the point that the virus is basically eradicated. No need to force anyone - just let the ongoing inconvenience of life on lockdown do the work. Most hold-outs will soon crack once they see everyone else getting on with their lives and having a jolly old time.

In the meantime, I think all they really need to do is bump teachers up the priority list for the vaccine. So much hinges on schools remaining open (including critical workers being free to actually do their jobs), I just don’t understand why they’re waiting in the same line as the rest of the public?

[Letters]

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/covid-test-flight-uk-pcr-border-b1782425.html

Any old Joe :pal:

[Letters]

I think you are right. Perhaps a concern would be if people dont take the vaccine, the government faces a choice of either continue lockdowns or mandatory vaccine.

It would become an issue if a significant percentage of the vulnerable population refuse to take the vaccine. I don’t think that’s going to happen though.

[Xhaka Can’t]

:lol:

I’m going to be 30 this year!

Maybe.

[Letters]

This could be an option

https://newsthump.com/2021/01/05/government-to-convince-anti-vax-morons-to-take-vaccine-by-telling-them-it-contains-sovereignty/

"So Sovereign, They Even Turn The Passports Blue"

[Letters]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jan/05/watching-new-zealands-covid-success-from-britain-has-shown-me-nations-make-their-own-luck

Interesting read.

[Ollie the Optimist]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/commentisfree/2021/jan/05/watching-new-zealands-covid-success-from-britain-has-shown-me-nations-make-their-own-luck

Interesting read.

It is but i do disagree with it. I just dont think you can easily compare New Zealand & the UK. For starters there are more sheep then people there and also the entire population of New Zealand is less then half of London as well as being spread out over a much wider area.

New Zealand isn’t an international travel hub either. Suspect a lot the virus entered into Europe before we really knew about it because there is a lot more travel from Asia to Europe then there is to New Zealand.

I also don’t think its easy to compare Europe to Asia either in responses. The measures the Asian countries take can involve accessing your phone or bank accounts to check if you are isolating. That level of government surveillance here would not be acceptable. You only have to look at anger at the snoopers charter that the government brought in a few years ago (i forget if it was May or Cameron who brought it in). The Asian culture of wearing masks etc is also very different to ours here in the west.


That is not to say there are not lessons to be learned from New Zealand or other Asian countries but i don’t really think you can easily compare the UK & New Zealand.

It’s also very easy to attack the UK response at the moment as we are reporting 50-60k cases a day, on paper it looks very bad especially with 75k deaths. However, using that website you mentioned yesterday with the world’s Covid stats, the second wave in Europe started late October. Germany has had around 30k deaths, Italy 40k, France 30k, Spain 20k (but they are very slow at reporting), Poland 25k and the UK around 35k.

Back in April, everyone was saying that we should be like Germany and how good the German response was. We were way behind on testing etc unlike them. The opposite is now true. I think we test the most people in Europe as a % which probably explains our high case rate. The second wave has hit Europe hard but you dont get that impression in the media because they have low case rates.

[Letters]

I agree that comparisons between countries are tricky and yes population density and being an international destination are factors.
But New Zealand isn't some remote outcrop which no-one visits, I looked into this at the start of all this when someone was claiming that and millions of people visit New Zealand each year.
What we see from their PM is swift and decisive action, not the constant U-turns and slow reactions we get from Johnson.
Our deaths per million tally right now is over 1000, theirs is 5. That can't just be down to population density, they've clearly handled this situation much better than us.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I agree that comparisons between countries are tricky and yes population density and being an international destination are factors.
But New Zealand isn't some remote outcrop which no-one visits, I looked into this at the start of all this when someone was claiming that and millions of people visit New Zealand each year.
What we see from their PM is swift and decisive action, not the constant U-turns and slow reactions we get from Johnson.
Our deaths per million tally right now is over 1000, theirs is 5. That can't just be down to population density, they've clearly handled this situation much better than us.

That is a very valid point and where comparisons can be made in the style of leadership etc. Johnson has been an appalling leader but then again, that was true before Covid.

But with New Zealand, their population is around 4.8 million with around 1.6 million living in one city, Auckland. Approximately 30% in one city. On the South Island, the population is around a million.

Factors like that massively help in containment, especially if you lockdown 30% of the population in one place. Limiting the travel between islands also help. Both of those factors help but dont really play a part in the UK. This time last year, the virus would probably have been here and when you think of how many travel into london for work every day, its easy to spread.

While New Zealand is a travel destination it is not a hub. You don’t fly there to catch another flight like you do in Europe.

[Niall_Quinn]

From their own mouths:
https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/10/COVID-19-and-the-production-of-statistics-2020-10-01.pdf

[Letters]

Oh give it a rest!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55561108

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zx3DFXqxa8

Pie. :bow:

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.imgur.com/S1AZT4u.jpg

[Niall_Quinn]

This is trivial, but a classic demonstration of the fear, hatred and insanity you'll find with the low information, leftist moron who lashes out every time he feels his sad little world of boot licking and mindless compliance is threatened in the least manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaR4C9rgsXE

[The Wengerbabies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgOAaLmoa68

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgOAaLmoa68

Saw this a while back and was tracking his studies before that. Unfortunately he's just an expert, but not an approved one. So his science, which is based on the old science that has built the world we live in, is out of fashion. The new science doesn't operate on observation, measurement and repetition. It works with technology based data manipulations and faith. It's more of a religion and it has many advocates and acolytes. Some say it's a giant step back into the age of superstition. Others say it's on the BBC so must be true.

[Niall_Quinn]

It's just a coincidence that all the expensive stuff works and is approved, and all the cheap stuff that has worked for decades no longer works and is banned. Pure coincidence. Only a fool or, worse, a conspiracy theorist would see it as a profit driver for big pharma. Clever people who watch the BBC know very well that corporations have our best interests at heart.

[Letters]

It's just a coincidence that all the expensive stuff works and is approved, and all the cheap stuff that has worked for decades no longer works and is banned. Pure coincidence. Only a fool or, worse, a conspiracy theorist would see it as a profit driver for big pharma. Clever people who watch the BBC know very well that corporations have our best interests at heart.

Is that like the coincidence how you believe this guy because he’s saying something which fits your worldview but dismiss other equally qualified people who say anything which does not?
What a coincidence that the “real science” just happens to be the stuff which backs up what you happen to believe.
I found this

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9768999400

Now. Obviously in your little world that is “fake news” because it doesn’t say what you want it to say. My take is...honestly, I don’t know. Because I’m not a medical researcher or doctor. You don’t know either of course, you just pretend you do. You divide the world into “real” and “fake” and your only definition of the “former” is “conforms to my worldview”. You never trouble yourself to consider any evidence which challenges that. You probably thing the same of me of course except you so rarely reveal your sources so it’s difficult to look into your claims. When you have revealed more like with the USPS dude I did look into and found every claim you made about him was false. I went through it in some detail and your only response was to get cross that I’d bothered to look into it. When presented with facts they just bounce off you and you then jump off to the next conspiracy theory.

You sneer at people who read the MSM and say we are just parroting what they tell us...but then you watch right wing conspiracy theory YouTube channels, parrot what those say and declare yourself an “independent thinker” and “high information”.

It’s all rather undermined by you being so consistently wrong about things. You are wrong because your underlying premise - that “they” are out to get you (where “they” are the media or government etc) - is simply not true. And it’s not my opinion you’re wrong, you have consistently made wrong predictions based on your false premise:

The army will be on the streets keeping people in their homes. They haven’t arrived yet. Strangely you made this prediction while also observing that “lockdown was over” when you saw people going about their business with no consequence.
You said there would “soon be curfews” and therefore checkpoints.
Nothing yet.

Sorry dude but the government media and big corporations just aren’t out to get you. They might not be falling over themselves to help you either, ultimately a lot of these people just want your money. But “they” have no interest in controlling every aspect of your life. You know this of course because while grumbling about the authoritarian regime you go about your daily business and observe others doing the same. Obviously the last year has been a bit weird but it’s clearly a response to a situation. The wrong response maybe, but a response nonetheless. The proof of that is the response and the level of restrictions on us has varied over time as the situation has.

[Mac76]

This is trivial, but a classic demonstration of the fear, hatred and insanity you'll find with the low information, leftist moron who lashes out every time he feels his sad little world of boot licking and mindless compliance is threatened in the least manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaR4C9rgsXE

those tweets all seem fine to me tbh

[Ollie the Optimist]

those tweets all seem fine to me tbh

The sooner that Darren Grimes is sent back to obsecurity the better.

The bloke is a complete waste of space.

[The Wengerbabies]

Saw this a while back and was tracking his studies before that. Unfortunately he's just an expert, but not an approved one. So his science, which is based on the old science that has built the world we live in, is out of fashion. The new science doesn't operate on observation, measurement and repetition. It works with technology based data manipulations and faith. It's more of a religion and it has many advocates and acolytes. Some say it's a giant step back into the age of superstition. Others say it's on the BBC so must be true.

True, he's just a frontline medic with first hand experience with a hundreds of patients and colleagues in agreement. Who we really need to be listening to is a retired tech business who is less medically qualified than me.

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.ibb.co/TWwY5JC/images-27.jpg

[Niall_Quinn]

those tweets all seem fine to me tbh

You may be like me and don't give a shit about Captain Tom, or whatever his name is. I don't wish him ill, I don't wish him well, I don't think about him at all, except on the rare occasion where it highlights the horrific nature of these new "information" systems that can sway whole herds one way and then in the opposite direction.

[GP]

The sooner that Darren Grimes is sent back to obsecurity the better.

The bloke is a complete waste of space.

Complete cunt

[GP]

A woman was mauled to death by a cow and the cow tested positive for covid and the death was recorded as a covid death and the hospitals are deserted and I'm ever so smart.

[Letters]

True, he's just a frontline medic with first hand experience with a hundreds of patients and colleagues in agreement. Who we really need to be listening to is a retired tech business who is less medically qualified than me.
Well, no. We do need to be listening to people like him.
But is there any consensus in the medical community about the treatment he’s talking about?
I don’t know the answer to that question and the studies he mentions are certainly worth looking into but they do also need peer review or repetition before conclusions are drawn and policy made.

[Niall_Quinn]

A woman was mauled to death by a cow and the cow tested positive for covid and the death was recorded as a covid death and the hospitals are deserted and I'm ever so smart.

Complete cunt

[Xhaka Can’t]

A woman was mauled to death by a cow and the cow tested positive for covid and the death was recorded as a covid death and the hospitals are deserted and I'm ever so smart.

While clearly a tongue in cheek post, there is a major issue with transparency over a lot of what is going on in respect of the pandemic.

This isn’t a party political issue or a secret, so use the Parliament channel to broadcast COBR and SAGE deliberations so we can all see the basis for the decisions taken.

As for the death statistics collection methodology, it is difficult to know where to begin. A COVID death is recorded as a death within 28 days of a positive diagnosis. What if you die in a car crash having just received that diagnosis?

Back to your analogy, the death is clearly a result of mad cow disease.

[Mac76]

You may be like me and don't give a shit about Captain Tom, or whatever his name is. I don't wish him ill, I don't wish him well, I don't think about him at all, except on the rare occasion where it highlights the horrific nature of these new "information" systems that can sway whole herds one way and then in the opposite direction.

you mean like those ranters on YouTube you love so much?

[Ollie the Optimist]

While clearly a tongue in cheek post, there is a major issue with transparency over a lot of what is going on in respect of the pandemic.

This isn’t a party political issue or a secret, so use the Parliament channel to broadcast COBR and SAGE deliberations so we can all see the basis for the decisions taken.

As for the death statistics collection methodology, it is difficult to know where to begin. A COVID death is recorded as a death within 28 days of a positive diagnosis. What if you die in a car crash having just received that diagnosis?

Back to your analogy, the death is clearly a result of mad cow disease.

I think something the World health organisation need to do going forward is come up with a system that all countries follow when reporting cases & deaths in pandemics.

That way it’ll be easier to track the pandemic globally if all reporting using the same method.

[Niall_Quinn]

you mean like those ranters on YouTube you love so much?

As always, which ones? You keep making this claim but you never back it up with anything. Maybe today is the day?

[Letters]

Gawd bless ‘er!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55602007

[Letters]

As always, which ones? You keep making this claim but you never back it up with anything. Maybe today is the day?
Wow...

You are the king of making claims without backing them up.

Self awareness :rose:

[Niall_Quinn]

Finally. A motion of no confidence in Starmer. What a useless, bootlicker. Not even his own constituency can stand him.

Maybe he could actually provide some opposition to this runaway regime and their lockdown lunacy? Rather than cheerlead every new excess and call for even more?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Finally. A motion of no confidence in Starmer. What a useless, bootlicker. Not even his own constituency can stand him.

Maybe he could actually provide some opposition to this runaway regime and their lockdown lunacy? Rather than cheerlead every new excess and call for even more?

You have changed your tune from you posted in the first lockdown (its on page 3 of this thread)


This is one last effort to persuade the alarming number of selfish twats we seem to have in this country to stay at home, spelling it out for them because they are likely thick as pigshit. And to get the last few sods off the hook who are being forced to go to work by arsehole bosses. Honestly, clothes and electronics retailers?

So sure, it's unenforceable, and in fact one of the first responses was from the arse covering police chief who pretty much said he couldn't do it. My fear is Boris didn't explicitly say, "Don't go to the seaside." So plenty still won't get it.

I'd be the first on the street chucking stuff if I was confident this was some prelude to a police state. But who can genuinely say they are confident of that right now? And who wants to take the chance with people's lives? If people can't cooperate at a time like this then there's no time when you can rely on them. It's like some cunt having a disco during the blackout. Only worse, because in this case a lot of these cunts are immune to their houses getting bombed and it's the neighbours who get it.

It's a good thing that we live in a country where the government is even concerned about liberty at a time like this. We don't want to wake up in a Chinese style afterlife where we're tagged and tracked and shoved around at gunpoint. But these selfish bastards who are out and about for kicks are making it more likely the outcome of this will be failure in every way.

[Niall_Quinn]

You have changed your tune from you posted in the first lockdown (its on page 3 of this thread)

Yes I've changed my opinion based on the facts. This is the biggest problem with political tribalism. People refuse to change their view as the facts develop. That's why we are in a lockdown now, because people refuse to think things through and examine evidence. They let other people tell them what to think.

You answered your own question when you mention "page 3" of the thread. In the absence of data, in light of what was witnessed in China and then Italy, it was perfectly reasonable to apply caution. For all we knew at that time, this could have been a dangerous disease for the general population. As it turns out it's a mild infection for the vast majority of people, with only very small and very specific groups at risk - the same groups who are generally at risk from all respiratory disease. In light of that data it is not just rational to modify thinking but essential, given the extreme harm that has been and continues to be caused by the massive overreaction to this relatively minor threat.

The problem is many people simply refuse to look at the data, or reject out of hand. A collective amnesia has gripped many who prefer to listen to self interested individuals rather than remember back a short while to the basics that governed how we dealt with health issues and infectious disease. Again, the media bears the brunt of the blame for its astoundingly biased coverage, hyping up the views of the authority line and studiously ignoring the thousands of qualified professionals who vigorously disagree with the current course of action. The media is the worst disease we face and it has infected millions and inflicted serious harm on their cognitive process. The same media that has whipped up hatred of Trump, fuelled the fake climate narrative, tainted anti-EU voices with charges of racism, etc, etc. The media is the primary fuel for division, it has killed the debate. Censorship of all competing voices is widening the gap.

You have to dig deep to be informed these days. The state and its mouthpieces have worked over decades to bring us to this low point.

[Ollie the Optimist]

The numbers are worse this time then they were in March when you were calling people selfish for wanting to leave their homes.

You say the facts the change, but ultimately they have not changed this time. It’s a serious pandemic and people are dying at high numbers. You might argue with the case numbers but you aren’t able to argue with the deaths. They are real. The people in ICU’s are real. The fact hospitals are struggling to cope is real. It’s exactly what you said back in march.

What is different now & in march in terms of people dying? Why were they selfish c*nts last time but now its dictatorship trying to steal our liberties?

[Letters]

What is different now & in march in terms of people dying?

I think a useful metric is not just deaths from Covid but overall deaths compared with expected numbers for the time of year.
There's no doubt Covid has killed a lot of people, but people die from stuff all the time. Are more people dying than you'd expect in comparison with other years?

At the height of the pandemic last April the death rate peaked at 2.2x the average for the time of year.
Right now (well, around Christmas time which is the last week this has data for) it's around 1.3x.

https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html

So while the Covid deaths are high, some of this is replacing the flu deaths we get at every year.
That said, Ivor Cummins, whose videos I thought were well put together and used good data, did a video where he put forward the theory that Covid hit after an unusually mild flu season. So the theory went that there was a lot of "dry tinder" around. A rather unfortunate term but basically meaning there are a lot of old, ill people around who didn't die from the flu the previous winter and would die at the first cough they catch and Covid wiped a lot of those out. It seemed a reasonable theory but were that so would we not expect to see fewer deaths this winter, not more? One thing I certainly didn't expect, and from his videos I don't think Cummins did either, is that the second hump of deaths which peaked around the 21st November, instead of dying down has actually started to go up again.

https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths

I'm not sure that a death rate of 1.3x the seasonal average is worth shutting down the country for but I guess the fear is how much worse that could get.
Shutting down the schools, while a massive pain in the hole for parents and teachers, is probably the right thing to do. Schools are petri dishes and while kids aren't themselves at risk they will spread it to the general population some of who are. But the way they did it was typically incompetent.

Basically, the government have fucked this all up massively with their constant indecision, late actions and U turns.
They insisted it was safe for us to meet at Christmas and then less than a week before the day said "soz, chaps, but no it isn't". But in some areas people could mix which has led to an inevitable rise in cases. They gave pubs and restaurants another massive kick in the bollocks just before Christmas, as MO said from a friend's experience they will have bought food and drink in for the Christmas trade and then had that rug pulled from under them - a pointless kick in the balls as schools and other things were still open which would spread Covid. Our local has just set up a crowd funding page where you can give them money now which you can redeem later, it's the only way they can survive. I hope they do. Just before Christmas they had a grotto. When Boris Tier 3'd us I called them to check if it was still open and the bloke I spoke to just sounded defeated. How can you run a business when the government keep closing you down every 5 minutes with no notice?
And this year Boris insisted schools were safe and then literally the same day (or could have been the day after) he closed them down having opened them for one day. So now you've had a load of parents having to gear up for home schooling and teachers setting up for remote learning with no notice.

Despite NQ's paranoia, none of this is being done because "they" are out to get us.
They're just fuckwits.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55560714

Obviously this is from the BBC and thus "fake news". The real news is to be found on conspiracy theory YouTube channels, obvs.

[Mac76]

They didn't have to deal with nutters on the internet either

[Niall_Quinn]

The numbers are worse this time then they were in March when you were calling people selfish for wanting to leave their homes.

You say the facts the change, but ultimately they have not changed this time. It’s a serious pandemic and people are dying at high numbers. You might argue with the case numbers but you aren’t able to argue with the deaths. They are real. The people in ICU’s are real. The fact hospitals are struggling to cope is real. It’s exactly what you said back in march.

What is different now & in march in terms of people dying? Why were they selfish c*nts last time but now its dictatorship trying to steal our liberties?

There's no dispute about the mortality statistics? Are you serious? Not only is there plenty of dispute, but the methodology behind the collection of those statistics has changed multiple times and some of the key statistics aren't even being recorded any more. Hospitals struggle to cope at this time every year, without fail. The elderly die from respiratory diseases at this time, every year. Granted, we have a new disease and more deaths as a result (although nowhere near the number being claimed, as inadvertently confirmed by the CDC in the case of the American data), but the evidence is clear (to the point not even the mainstream media can convincingly lie about it). This disease is not a threat to the vast majority of the population. That was the question that had to be answered by the data, and that's the question that has been conclusively answered.

There's also a strong case to be made against the state for the manner in which they handled, indeed prompted, the outbreak in care homes. Thousands of medical professionals have argued the vulnerable should be shielded and the rest of the population does not need to be locked down. The state has done the opposite. Locked down healthy people and heightened the risk to the vulnerable by clearing out sick people from hospitals and sending them into care homes, and allowing care workers to cycle between the homes, and leaving those care workers in the lurch with inadequate supples. It could be claimed this was incompetence but that doesn't stack up at all. Even a fool can figure out you don't send sick people into places where vulnerable people reside. Even if you let them away with the eternally apologetic incompetence defence, it doesn't explain why the same "mistakes" were made all across Europe and in America. It's scandalous the media has all but dropped this very sinister issue.

Then there's the issue of intubation and the ignored advice to use other means of treatment. There are the cheap and readily available drugs that could have helped but were ignored and even banned. And the silent death toll from the lockdown itself, those numbers probably being fraudulently attributed to Covid too I'm betting.

This has been the "incompetent" response to the data and to thousands of qualified voices that have cautioned a different path (including even the WHO). This is why things are different. You can give the government the benefit of the doubt when they have little to no information to work with. But there's no doubt and no excuses once the information becomes available. Hell, these bastards have even brought Ferguson back to spew out more of his doom and gloom bullshit without a hint of embarrassment of shame about his track record.

The cost of this "incompetence" will go far beyond all the additional lives that have and will be lost, it will tank the economy (if we even have an economy at this stage) and destroy more lives and livelihoods well into the future. Three weeks to flatten the curve is destructive enough. But nine months of this shit, to varying degrees, and all we are hearing is how restrictions will need to get tougher?

There's no comparison between last March and now, apart from the continued "incompetence" that, even then, isn't enough for the likes of Starmer. And, btw, since when did these bastards ever care about the NHS or the elderly living and dying in poverty? Give me a break. If you rely on anything they tell you, including their bullshit statistics, then you are begging to be lied to.

[Niall_Quinn]

They didn't have to deal with nutters on the internet either

I haven't checked in person during this latest casedemic, but during the first outbreak three out of three hospitals I attended, including the main London hospital for handling the disease, were virtually deserted. It could have been because the covid sections were cordoned off and it was a hive of activity back there. Not very likely though as the car parks were empty and there was little sign of medical staff coming and going as you would normally see - I mean they have to have a break and go home at some point, right? No, those hospitals were empty. The only reason we got into them was because we were a priority case. No waiting time. Everything was immediate. Which is odd in itself at the best of times, but twice as strange considering the alleged pressures on hospital.

As I said, I don't have any experience this time around but the Nightingale hospitals lying empty and lacking staff should make anyone at least raise a question. And there are more that three hospitals in the country, of course, so maybe the three I attended (including the main London hospital during the height of the outbreak) were all exceptions to the general rule.

If we had a media that ever told the truth, we'd know what was happening. But we don't, so we don't.

[Letters]

If we had a media that ever told the truth, we'd know what was happening. But we don't, so we don't.
Sigh. Right, the media never tell the truth. But some bloke on YouTube, he's the one who has got it all figured out.
I'm not saying the media are bastions of truth either but there is a middle ground. Not everything they say is a lie.
You really have to stop thinking that everyone is out to get you and has sinister motives all the time.

Empty car parks in hospitals when visitors aren't allowed is hardly a head scratcher.

And you're incredulous about incompetence when literally last week you saw Boris saying how it was safe for kids to go to school and then literally the same day, or at most a day later, he closed them all :doh:
So suddenly a load of teachers who were having to scramble around to set up testing in schools suddenly had to scramble around to set up remote learning again with zero notice. He literally closed them overnight having let them open for one day. Does he have some vendetta against teachers for some reason? I think him being a fuckwit is more plausible.

Then there was a week before Christmas when he insisted that it was safe for people to meet and sneered at Keir Starmer who suggested that maybe it wasn't. Then less than a week before Christmas he says to millions "Ah, soz, chaps. Stay at home". Does he have some vendetta against families in London and the South East for some reason? Was he trying to spoil our Christmases? I think him being a fuckwit is more plausible.

Just before that having decided that it was fine for shops, schools, churches, offices and outdoor sports activities to remain open he randomly decided to close pubs and restaurants who were gearing up for a Christmas trade which would have gone some way to mitigate the catastrophe that was 2020.
Does he have some vendetta against restaurants and pubs for some reason? I think him being a fuckwit is more plausible.

Throughout this pandemic he has consistently been reactive, not proactive. And he has U-turned constantly. It's harmed a lot of people, not just in terms of how many deaths there have been - if you don't believe they're Covid deaths then you can look at all cause mortality which around Christmas was 30% above average and numbers have gone up since then so I suspect that's going to get worse in the next couple of weeks. But it's harmed people's mental and physical health in other ways and will lead to a lot of people out of work this year as well as the huge national debt he's taken on to fund things like the furlough scheme and "eat out to help out". I can't see that there is any clear strategy to try and harm people though. Firstly because why would he, and secondly because I can't see any clear strategy at all. I think him being a fuckwit is more plausible.

[Letters]

Yes I've changed my opinion based on the facts. This is the biggest problem with political tribalism. People refuse to change their view as the facts develop.

Correct. I don't know if I'd blame political tribalism but certainly it feels like the world has got more polarised.
I think the internet is a factor in that. That and the deregulation of the media. There are now a spectrum of news sources. You could argue that's a good thing but there are dangers too - it seems people increasingly seek out a news source which tells them what they want to hear, not one which tells them the truth.
Witness how MAGA people who have spent the last 4 years hanging on FOX News's every word have now scurried off to OANN and NewsMax when even FOX refused to buy in to Trump's bullshit about a stolen election.


That's why we are in a lockdown now, because people refuse to think things through and examine evidence. They let other people tell them what to think.

We're in lockdown because the government have bolloxed this all up massively. There's a backdrop of years of under-funding of the NHS which leads to a "crisis" every winter. But with Covid going on they were far too slow to take action which might have alleviated pressure this year. I've outlined some of their idiocy above.


You have to dig deep to be informed these days. The state and its mouthpieces have worked over decades to bring us to this low point.

No, that's just your paranoia again.
If anything it's far easier to be "informed" these days, because of the myriad of sources of information I mentioned above.
The tricky thing these days is knowing which of them to believe.

Above in this thread there was a video of a doctor saying some drug was a miracle cure.
Took me 2 minutes to find some articles saying that what he claimed just wasn't true.
Who to believe? Honestly, I don't know. I'm not a doctor.

[Marc Overmars]

Went for a walk with the parents yesterday as they hadn’t seen the little one since Christmas. Socially distanced and all that. :rolleyes:

Encountered 2 police officers at a local lake which is very popular and we were given a warning to “move on”. Really had to bite my tongue but my dad managed to diffuse the situation.

They can fuck right off.

[Letters]

Isn't your kid under 1? So you should be entitled to a support bubble or childcare bubble or whatever it's called.
So what were they saying you were doing wrong?

We met MrsL's parents on Boxing Day at a local park which was slightly bending the rules. They had to travel from MK to get here although that was also in Tier 4. We pretty much behaved ourselves although we didn't attempt to keep the boy away from them because that would have been ridiculous. There were quite a few families out and about and no police although I know things have got stricter since.

[GP]

Just testing me eyesight, guv'nor

[Marc Overmars]

Isn't your kid under 1? So you should be entitled to a support bubble or childcare bubble or whatever it's called.
So what were they saying you were doing wrong?

We met MrsL's parents on Boxing Day at a local park which was slightly bending the rules. They had to travel from MK to get here although that was also in Tier 4. We pretty much behaved ourselves although we didn't attempt to keep the boy away from them because that would have been ridiculous. There were quite a few families out and about and no police although I know things have got stricter since.

My dad mentioned the childcare bubble, which in all honesty I wasn’t totally aware of anyway because we don’t need it, but it didn’t seem like the police were really that well informed either. We were sat down on benches when approached and basically dispersed from there. All they said was household mixing and gatherings outdoors was something we shouldn’t be doing. :shrug:

I know a lot of people who’ve had the virus now so I’ll draw the line at mixing indoors but not a chance in a hell I’m going to prevent my parents or in-laws taking their grandkid for a walk.

[Letters]

Sitting on benches?! You reckless bastard!
Yeah, that's probably why you were moved on. You're allowed to go for a walk but the minute you sit down...that's when the 'Rona will get you...

[Mac76]

Just testing me eyesight, guv'nor

works every time

[Letters]

Encountered 2 police officers at a local lake which is very popular.
By the way. Don't know if this is where you mean but we were going to meet MrsL's parents at Willen Lake. We've been there quite a few times over the years.
We'd long since cancelled anyway but good to know the local constabulary are prowling!

[Coney]

My dad mentioned the childcare bubble, which in all honesty I wasn’t totally aware of anyway because we don’t need it, but it didn’t seem like the police were really that well informed either. We were sat down on benches when approached and basically dispersed from there. All they said was household mixing and gatherings outdoors was something we shouldn’t be doing. :shrug:

I know a lot of people who’ve had the virus now so I’ll draw the line at mixing indoors but not a chance in a hell I’m going to prevent my parents or in-laws taking their grandkid for a walk.


Here are the rules for lockdown...
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home?priority-taxon=774cee22-d896-44c1-a611-e3109cce8eae
Here is the definition of a support bubble.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/making-a-support-bubble-with-another-household

I have printed a copy of the relevant page from each one, highlighted the relevant paragraph in each and we carry that with us in case of a police challenge.

My granddaughter was born in March 2020 so is under 1. As such, my wife and I have formed a support bubble with my daughter's family. We are therefore treated as a single household. This was a great help over the last few days when my daughter had to go into hospital for tests (including for the big C) and my wife was able to stay a few days to help look after the two little ones. Happily the results were negative so that is a big relief.

Having said that, although we can still see them every day if we want, we are not going to do it too often, going with the guidance of 'just because you can does not mean you should.'

Another note is that both families have been isolating for over a month so we are highly unlikely to be carriers - still taking care though,

[Marc Overmars]

By the way. Don't know if this is where you mean but we were going to meet MrsL's parents at Willen Lake. We've been there quite a few times over the years.
We'd long since cancelled anyway but good to know the local constabulary are prowling!

Yep it was at Willen. It’s always very busy there so wasn’t surprised to see the pigs out and about.

[The Wengerbabies]

https://ccpgloballockdownfraud.medium.com/the-chinese-communist-partys-global-lockdown-fraud-88e1a7286c2b

[Niall_Quinn]

https://ccpgloballockdownfraud.medium.com/the-chinese-communist-partys-global-lockdown-fraud-88e1a7286c2b

Too much too soon. Go way, way back and try to explain to them what the BBC is. Start from there and slowly (with them fighting you all the way) work your way forward. I have gotten as far as getting them to possibly, maybe, theoretically consider the media doesn't tell the truth all the time. And it has been a thankless fight to get that far. So I won't lie, it's not an easy path you are on. So much easier to stop thinking and just accept it all. I admire the fact you persist.

[Niall_Quinn]

Here's your proof the hospitals are overrun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKWWxRc0XsE

I think the ambulance parking finally sold me.

Is this the best they can do to try to prop up their bullshit?

That nurse being interviewed hasn't been working in a PPE ward, as you can easily tell if you know what to look for. And I thought the brave patient (does somebody have her agent's phone number?) delivered her lines almost convincingly.

Who's buying this shit?

[The Wengerbabies]

I honestly can't believe people are still buying this bullshit.

[Niall_Quinn]

I honestly can't believe people are still buying this bullshit.

A lot of people aren't, but they don't know what do do about it. We've handed so much power to the politicians and the corporations that own them. It is now illegal to gather and protest. You can't meet in a pub and discuss things with mates. Social media is censoring anyone who deviates from the approved narrative. If you say the "wrong" thing in public you can be hounded out of your job and denied access to vital services.

Orwell would be shocked at how far we've exceeded his imagination.

But the very worst are those who do the unpaid work of the state by shouting down anyone who has a counter opinion. They're like those arseholes who grass up their neighbours for having "unauthorised" people visit. A lot of people don't want to be hassled by busybodies, jobsworths and boot-lickers who stand vigilant in the service of their masters, so they bite their tongue and just get on with it as best they can. The state and the media mistakes this for majority compliance and acceptance and each of us looks on in despair and wonders at the insanity of it all.

But virtually every time the media ventures onto social media to make some new outlandish claim about its magical virus, have a look at the comments section (when it has not been bravely deactivated). A lot of people aren't buying this shit one little bit. Not everyone became dumb overnight.

[Mac76]

A lot of people aren't, but they don't know what do do about it. We've handed so much power to the politicians and the corporations that own them. It is now illegal to gather and protest. You can't meet in a pub and discuss things with mates. Social media is censoring anyone who deviates from the approved narrative. If you say the "wrong" thing in public you can be hounded out of your job and denied access to vital services.

Orwell would be shocked at how far we've exceeded his imagination.

But the very worst are those who do the unpaid work of the state by shouting down anyone who has a counter opinion. They're like those arseholes who grass up their neighbours for having "unauthorised" people visit. A lot of people don't want to be hassled by busybodies, jobsworths and boot-lickers who stand vigilant in the service of their masters, so they bite their tongue and just get on with it as best they can. The state and the media mistakes this for majority compliance and acceptance and each of us looks on in despair and wonders at the insanity of it all.

But virtually every time the media ventures onto social media to make some new outlandish claim about its magical virus, have a look at the comments section (when it has not been bravely deactivated). A lot of people aren't buying this shit one little bit. Not everyone became dumb overnight.

when's that first airport novel coming out? oh, no-one's flying are they... :haha:

[Letters]

Yes I've changed my opinion based on the facts. This is the biggest problem with political tribalism. People refuse to change their view as the facts develop.

This is actually true. A rare moment of agreement. Hurrah.
But I don't know if it's "political tribalism". I think the deregulation of the media and the rise of the internet are factors. You may view those as good things, and I guess it is a good thing if you don't have a couple of big companies who tell you "the news". But it does mean that there are now a myriad of sources of information, each with its own bias. You seem to think that MSM = Fake News. But these smaller channels or YouTubers or whatever - those people have their own bias too, you know. Being independent doesn't make them "right". If anything there is less oversight. It's like this place. No-one looks here so we let a lot of stuff go. It's pretty unlikely anyone is going to sue us. More mainstream sites need to be more careful about what they write because people can sue them.
It feels like increasingly people don't want a news source which tells them the truth, they want one which tells them what they want to hear. Witness how MAGA people have been scurrying from FOX to NewsMax and OANN.


For all we knew at that time, this could have been a dangerous disease for the general population. As it turns out it's a mild infection for the vast majority of people, with only very small and very specific groups at risk - the same groups who are generally at risk from all respiratory disease. In light of that data it is not just rational to modify thinking but essential, given the extreme harm that has been and continues to be caused by the massive overreaction to this relatively minor threat.

Agree with some of that but while it's a minor threat to much of the population, it's quite a big threat to a fairly significant section of the population.
While people under 60 are very unlikely to die, they might still need treatment. 25% of Covid admissions are people under 55.
Most of these people won't die but they need treatment which takes resources and stretches the service.


The problem is many people simply refuse to look at the data, or reject out of hand.

What data are you looking at?
More people are being admitted to hospital now each day than they were at the peak last April and the trend is upwards.
The 7 day average of deaths is higher too and, again, I'm comparing the numbers now with the peak last April. We aren't at the peak now.
Granted, more people die at this time each year so that is a factor, but through November and December the all cause mortality rate was higher than the average, it grew to about 30% above the average by Christmas and given the Covid deaths have continued to grow since then I expect that to be at least as bad if not worse when that gets updated next.

You can argue that Lockdown is the wrong thing to do and I'm not sure you're wrong about that, but stop pretending that there isn't a situation that needs dealing with here. I am looking at the data and there clearly is something unusual going on in the world right now. Unless you think almost every government in the world has simultaneously decided to inflict unprecedented restrictions on their citizens because reasons.


The media is the worst disease we face and it has infected millions and inflicted serious harm on their cognitive process. The same media that has whipped up hatred of Trump
And yet 70 million people voted for Trump. They're obviously not very effective. Because some sections of the media were very pro Trump. Like I said, everyone can now find a news source or YouTube channel which tells them what they want to hear. And when they listen to it and parrot what it says they can just pretend they're "doing their own research" and are an independent thinker. You're no different, you just think you are.

As I've pointed out before, you have got a lot of things wrong over the last year. As we all have, to be fair. But if you tried a bit of introspection you might recognise the things you've got wrong and be less cocksure about your opinions and sneer less about those who don't share them.

[Letters]

Fake news, obviously. Nothing going on. :blah:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55653161

[dostoy]

Is there anybody on here that thinks that this is all a hoax and that hospitals are not any busier now than they were last January ?

[GP]

Is there anybody on here that thinks that this is all a hoax and that hospitals are not any busier now than they were last January ?

There are a couple of lunatics on here who think this is a hoax, yes.

[dostoy]

Can they come on here and say for themselves that they think this is all a hoax ?

Can they also explain why they think that ?

If you, whoever you are, think that then at least have the balls to say so.

Anyone there ?

[Letters]

I don’t think they think it’s a hoax.
But they do think that the NHS crisis is being manufactured, which it isn’t.
And they think the dangers are being exaggerated, which...I have some sympathy for, people under 50 aren’t at much risk. But quite a few younger people are ending up needing hospital treatment which adds to the pressure on the NHS.
And while more people die in winter every year, people pretending the second wave isn’t happening need to look at the excess mortality data.

NQ in particular has a paranoia which leads him to believe the media are hell bent on misleading people and the government are hell bent on controlling him.
Strangely, he continues in this belief despite it repeatedly leading him to demonstrably wrong conclusions. I’ve already been through some of the things he’s said in this thread.

[The Wengerbabies]

If they didn't manage to scare you into submission with their "UK variant" or "South African variant" here is the Brazilian variant https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-uk-taking-steps-over-coronavirus-variant-detected-in-brazil-says-boris-johnson-12186933

:rolleyes:

What a crock of shit!

[The Wengerbabies]

Is there anybody on here that thinks that this is all a hoax and that hospitals are not any busier now than they were last January ?

https://i.imgur.com/S1AZT4u.jpg

[Letters]

What a crock of shit!
Are you suggesting that the concept of viruses mutating is a “crock of shit”?
I’m not sure where to find data on hospital admissions compared with other years but while it’s true the NHS is underfunded and struggles every winter, I’ve seen enough people on the front line saying that this is different from other years.
And I’ve cited statistics on excess deaths compared with the average for the time of year. Is that also a “crock of shit”?

While I think the government have got a lot of things wrong and am sceptical that lockdowns are the right approach there is clearly something going on which requires a response. Or do you think practically every country in the world has crashed their economy for the lolz?

[The Wengerbabies]

Are you suggesting that the concept of viruses mutating is a “crock of shit”?
I’m not sure where to find data on hospital admissions compared with other years but while it’s true the NHS is underfunded and struggles every winter, I’ve seen enough people on the front line saying that this is different from other years.
And I’ve cited statistics on excess deaths compared with the average for the time of year. Is that also a “crock of shit”?

While I think the government have got a lot of things wrong and am sceptical that lockdowns are the right approach there is clearly something going on which requires a response. Or do you think practically every country in the world has crashed their economy for the lolz?


No virus mutate the Wuhan coronavirus has mutated many times since the first bat sandwich. The crock of shit is that they are now fearmongering with the mutations to keep their absolute control.

As for why practically every country in the world has crashed their economy https://ccpgloballockdownfraud.medium.com/the-chinese-communist-partys-global-lockdown-fraud-88e1a7286c2b

[Xhaka Can’t]

Are you suggesting that the concept of viruses mutating is a “crock of shit”?
I’m not sure where to find data on hospital admissions compared with other years but while it’s true the NHS is underfunded and struggles every winter, I’ve seen enough people on the front line saying that this is different from other years.
And I’ve cited statistics on excess deaths compared with the average for the time of year. Is that also a “crock of shit”?

While I think the government have got a lot of things wrong and am sceptical that lockdowns are the right approach there is clearly something going on which requires a response. Or do you think practically every country in the world has crashed their economy for the lolz?

Why do you bother?

[Letters]

Why do you bother?

:lol: Good question.

[dostoy]

https://i.imgur.com/S1AZT4u.jpg

Are you really saying that Covid is a hoax and these people are dying as a result of something else ?

Its people like you who are making this whole situation worse.Do you obey the rules of wearing face masks, hand sanitising and social distancing ?

It is beyond belief that anyone thinks that this is all made up.

The stupidity level of some people is impossible to imagine.There will soon be 100 thousand people who have died from Covid in the UK alone.What did they die from if it wasn't covid ? Maybe you should try telling their families that covid doesn't exist.

I keep hearing the phrase 'we are all in this together' and I always think that is the problem.There are far far too many stupid idiots out there who don't believe the situation we are all in and don't obey the rules.

Would you believe it if one of your family was infected ?

I'm truly lost for words.

I cannot believe how anyone and I mean anyone, can be so extremely naive and incredibly stupid beyond belief.

[Globalgunner]

Are you really saying that Covid is a hoax and these people are dying as a result of something else ?

Its people like you who are making this whole situation worse.Do you obey the rules of wearing face masks, hand sanitising and social distancing ?

It is beyond belief that anyone thinks that this is all made up.

The stupidity level of some people is impossible to imagine.There will soon be 100 thousand people who have died from Covid in the UK alone.What did they die from if it wasn't covid ? Maybe you should try telling their families that covid doesn't exist.

I keep hearing the phrase 'we are all in this together' and I always think that is the problem.There are far far too many stupid idiots out there who don't believe the situation we are all in and don't obey the rules.

Would you believe it if one of your family was infected ?

I'm truly lost for words.

I cannot believe how anyone and I mean anyone, can be so extremely naive and incredibly stupid beyond belief.

Well said you. Now go take the vaccine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gq51K9fi_s&ab_channel=WPLGLocal10

Totally unrelated, Im sure. He could have died even if he didnt get jabbed.

[Letters]

Well said you. Now go take the vaccine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gq51K9fi_s&ab_channel=WPLGLocal10

Totally unrelated, Im sure. He could have died even if he didnt get jabbed.

It is amazing how people scoff at the Covid deaths reported because a Covid death is recorded at such if the death occurs within 28 days of a positive test, saying that the person could have died of anything and it inflates the figures. But now when it suits you someone dying 2 weeks after getting a shot of vaccine is definitely linked to them getting the vaccine even though so far there's no indication there is any link.
The video says 5 million people have had the vaccine so far. It doesn't seem that statistically unlikely that some of them would die not long after.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is there anybody on here that thinks that this is all a hoax and that hospitals are not any busier now than they were last January ?

Yeah, hello. Of course it's a giant hoax.

Sure, there's a virus going around. And people have died from it. Nothing new there, it happens all the time. But it generally doesn't result in the western world descending into synchronised authoritarianism.

The hoax is the response to the virus, not the virus itself. Draconian laws, abuse of civl liberties, manipulated data, junk science, censorship of dissent, miracle vaccines, etc, etc. All bullshit. The only thing more outlandish is the incredible number of people who have bought into it.

[Letters]

The hoax is the response to the virus, not the virus itself. Draconian laws, abuse of civl liberties, manipulated data, junk science, censorship of dissent, miracle vaccines, etc, etc. All bullshit.
Evidence?

*crickets*

[dostoy]

Yeah, hello. Of course it's a giant hoax.

Sure, there's a virus going around. And people have died from it. Nothing new there, it happens all the time. But it generally doesn't result in the western world descending into synchronised authoritarianism.

The hoax is the response to the virus, not the virus itself. Draconian laws, abuse of civl liberties, manipulated data, junk science, censorship of dissent, miracle vaccines, etc, etc. All bullshit. The only thing more outlandish is the incredible number of people who have bought into it.

That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life.

You must be stupid beyond human comprehension.

I simply cannot be bothered to say any more to someone like you.

[Letters]

No virus mutate the Wuhan coronavirus has mutated many times since the first bat sandwich. The crock of shit is that they are now fearmongering with the mutations to keep their absolute control.

As for why practically every country in the world has crashed their economy https://ccpgloballockdownfraud.medium.com/the-chinese-communist-partys-global-lockdown-fraud-88e1a7286c2b

Right. So...I admit I didn't read every word of that because I got some way in and the gist of it seems to be that China have somehow fooled virtually every nation in the world into tanking their economy. Seriously? Is that what you're going with?
Who are "they" in the "keep their absolute control"? Is that China too? The news about the new variants isn't coming out of China, is it?
If this is all about control - as opposed to a response to a situation - then why has the response changed over time as data has changed? Last summer while there were still some restrictions they were nowhere near as draconian as they are now.
Why would "they" try to control every aspect of our lives like this? To what end? What are they getting out of it?

[Niall_Quinn]

That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life.

You must be stupid beyond human comprehension.

I simply cannot be bothered to say any more to someone like you.

Go hide under your bed.

[Letters]

That is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard in my life.

You must be stupid beyond human comprehension.

I simply cannot be bothered to say any more to someone like you.

It completely baffles me that anyone who has witnessed Boris bumbling around for the last year - promising us Christmas then cancelling it a week before the day, saying schools were safe and allowing them to open for one day before closing them etc - could possibly think there is any strategy around this.

[dostoy]

It completely baffles me that anyone who has witnessed Boris bumbling around for the last year - promising us Christmas then cancelling it a week before the day, saying schools were safe and allowing them to open for one day before closing them etc - could possibly think there is any strategy around this.

No-one is THAT stupid surely.

Its attention seeking.

[Niall_Quinn]

No-one is THAT stupid surely.

Its attention seeking.

Nobody is trying to remove your right to think what you want to think. I gave you an answer to a direct question. To which, quite obviously, you had a prepared and unconditional response. So why ask in the first place? You were the one who sought attention with your question. Now you have attention you accuse the respondent of being an attention seeker?

It has been a longstanding feature of the so-called debate to equate any questioning of the official line with denial the virus exists at all. It's a cheap way to dismiss dissent.

[dostoy]

Nobody is trying to remove your right to think what you want to think. I gave you an answer to a direct question. To which, quite obviously, you had a prepared and unconditional response. So why ask in the first place? You were the one who sought attention with your question. Now you have attention you accuse the respondent of being an attention seeker?

It has been a longstanding feature of the so-called debate to equate any questioning of the official line with denial the virus exists at all. It's a cheap way to dismiss dissent.

I am hardly ever on here so I am not attention seeking.

You are never off here, look at how many posts you have made and the ones I have seen are very long.

Its the incredible and unbelievable stupidity of people like you who have made this virus worse.

[Niall_Quinn]

I am hardly ever on here so I am not attention seeking.

You are never off here, look at how many posts you have made and the ones I have seen are very long.

Its the incredible and unbelievable stupidity of people like you who have made this virus worse.

And even if I was stupid enough to remember back before 2020 and how we used to deal with epidemics and pandemics, how would that make the virus worse? Do you mean I have made the effects of the virus worse, by refusing to believe the government and mainstream media bullshit? I wear my completely ineffective mask, just to please other people. I happily keep my distance. I already knew how to wash my hands long before government started instructing me on how to do it.

So what is it you think I'm doing that is making the virus, or its effects, worse? Is it a safety requirement to buy into junk science and bullshit? Will that make people safer? It's an odd virus that requires not just obedience of action but obedience of thought.

Maybe don't ask questions if the answers are so upsetting to you.

[dostoy]

It would be impossible for you to upset me.

You admit there is a virus but you say face masks are completely ineffective.I don't understand that.

I still say its attention seeking.

The opinions you express on here are designed to cause a reaction in others.They may not be your actual opinions but they are expressed to bring as much attention onto you as possible.

You total number of posts is crazy, you must be addicted to this site and how it makes you feel.

There is something significant missing from your life, maybe you only find it on here.

I find that very sad.

[Coney]

It would be impossible for you to upset me.

You admit there is a virus but you say face masks are completely ineffective.I don't understand that.

I still say its attention seeking.

The opinions you express on here are designed to cause a reaction in others.They may not be your actual opinions but they are expressed to bring as much attention onto you as possible.

You total number of posts is crazy, you must be addicted to this site and how it makes you feel.

There is something significant missing from your life, maybe you only find it on here.

I find that very sad.

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

It would be impossible for you to upset me.

You admit there is a virus but you say face masks are completely ineffective.I don't understand that.

I still say its attention seeking.

The opinions you express on here are designed to cause a reaction in others.They may not be your actual opinions but they are expressed to bring as much attention onto you as possible.

You total number of posts is crazy, you must be addicted to this site and how it makes you feel.

There is something significant missing from your life, maybe you only find it on here.

I find that very sad.

Look at the bold bit. I think that sums it all up for you.

Don't be thrashing around so much. Be a bit less disjointed. One minute you want answers, the next you are worried about how often people are posting.

You are all over the place. Calm down. Breathe.

If you check, it's not me that is hyperventilating.

Or..

Fuck you and fuck off. You think I care what a gnat has to say? Cunt.

Which answer do you prefer?

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

Oh the old cunt is back. Not dead yet then? What a shame.

[Letters]

Do dry your eyes.
:console:

[dostoy]

Look at the bold bit. I think that sums it all up for you.

Don't be thrashing around so much. Be a bit less disjointed. One minute you want answers, the next you are worried about how often people are posting.

You are all over the place. Calm down. Breathe.

If you check, it's not me that is hyperventilating.

Or..

Fuck you and fuck off. You think I care what a gnat has to say? Cunt.

Which answer do you prefer?

Not worried, not hyperventilating and completely calm.

Mmmmmm the truth hurts doesn't it.I think I've touched a nerve.

Name calling is pathetic.

It is 100% attention seeking.

You will get no more attention from me though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not worried, not hyperventilating and completely calm.

Mmmmmm the truth hurts doesn't it.I think I've touched a nerve.

Name calling is pathetic.

It is 100% attention seeking.

You will get no more attention from me though.

WTF? This is what you weirdos are all about.

You ask a question. Get an answer. Spit out a bunch of bile about people being stupid and them claim victim status.

Fuck off you stupid afterbirth. Slap your mother for me.

Hopefully you'll catch the fucking thing and die, just so you can be proven right. Or at least so humanity doesn't have to suffer you.

Fucking cunt.

[Letters]

:console:

If you’re upset about no one on here taking you seriously then you could try providing some evidence for any of your claims. Just a thought.
:tiphat:

[Ollie the Optimist]

280,000 people vaccinated yesterday. The 280 is first doses with 10k getting second doses

I think it was around 240,000 the day before which was up from 180,000 the day before that. EDIT - wrong figures. 225,000 yesterday (207k 1st dose & 16k second dose) & 145k first dose day before & 20k second dose

Obviously the government needs to keep it at that 280 level to hit their 15 million target by mid feb but so far, its an impressive effort on the vaccination front.

[Letters]

Gotta say, I think they’ve got a lot of stuff wrong but they do seem to be getting this vaccine rollout right.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Gotta say, I think they’ve got a lot of stuff wrong but they do seem to be getting this vaccine rollout right.

Seemingly its only the UK & Israel who are handling the rollout well.

One thing i think they have done well is there doenst seem to be much government interference bar setting targets etc. Just let the NHS & Military sort the logistics out. Much better then politicians !

[Niall_Quinn]

Up to 23 elderly people in Norway have died after taking either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. 13 have been confirmed as directly connected, the rest are suspected. China has withdrawn the vaccine for use on elderly patients. Can't imagine their own vaccine is any better and not surprising they only mention foreign products. Doctors there have concluded these vaccines are not sufficiently tested, which makes you wonder why they were using them. Norwegian health authorities have confirmed the deaths.

Meanwhile the UK has supposedly vaccinated over a third of over 80s, but there's no data so far on adverse reactions or deaths.

[Letters]

Up to 23 elderly people in Norway have died after taking either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. 13 have been confirmed as directly connected, the rest are suspected.

23 people had side effects, 13 deaths.
Which I agree is of concern.
Although it seems like only the very frailest people are at risk, so for some people those risks may outweigh the benefits. But not for many.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/norway-adjusts-advice-after-vaccine-deaths-but-isnt-alarmed/2021/01/15/d69cfa84-572d-11eb-acc5-92d2819a1ccb_story.html

[Ollie the Optimist]

The welsh first minister has said today that the Welsh have 250,000 doses of the Pfizer vaccine to last until the next delivery which is expected end of Jan or early Feb. They have some of the oxford one & are expecting more to arrive over next few weeks as well

He says that they need to make the supply last of the Pfizer one rather than using it all in one go and having nothing left until next delivery.

I really don’t understand that logic. Surely in a pandemic, it is better to burn through what you have to vaccinate the vulnerable rather then slowly release batches to get through the next month?

[WMUG]

Up to 23 elderly people in Norway have died after taking either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. 13 have been confirmed as directly connected, the rest are suspected. China has withdrawn the vaccine for use on elderly patients.

Why do you believe those numbers and not the ones about deaths from Covid?

[Letters]

Why do you believe those numbers and not the ones about deaths from Covid?

They’re not even right, he’s quoted them wrong.
And he’s “accidentally” omitted the context that it’s only been extremely old and frail people where the risks of the vaccine may outweigh the benefits.
Some would say his post is “fake news”. Not me, obviously... :ninja:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Raab on the media round today confirming that we will go into a tiered approached after lockdown, which i suspect most had guessed already. Also states that they will start to think about it in early march so that mid-feb date has slipped.

Only two months until we can exit lockdown & re enter tier 4 where you still cant leave the house !

[Mac76]

They’re not even right, he’s quoted them wrong.
And he’s “accidentally” omitted the context that it’s only been extremely old and frail people where the risks of the vaccine may outweigh the benefits.
Some would say his post is “fake news”. Not me, obviously... :ninja:

:good: :lol:

[GP]

https://www.queerty.com/orthodox-rabbi-warns-covid-19-vaccine-will-make-gay-20210116?utm_campaign=wp-to-twitter&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter


Sounds like most of you have already had it haha lol

[Marc Overmars]

Raab on the media round today confirming that we will go into a tiered approached after lockdown, which i suspect most had guessed already. Also states that they will start to think about it in early march so that mid-feb date has slipped.

Only two months until we can exit lockdown & re enter tier 4 where you still cant leave the house !

Already told myself nothing is changing until Easter tbh.

Think I’ve struggled with this lockdown more than the previous ones. January blues don’t help either.
I’ve always thought people who talk about mental health are a bit wishy washy but I do feel like I’ve been overcome with feelings that I’ve never felt before. I don’t really have any real reason to be in a lull but I am and I’m a bit sick of this shit.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Already told myself nothing is changing until Easter tbh.

Think I’ve struggled with this lockdown more than the previous ones. January blues don’t help either.
I’ve always thought people who talk about mental health are a bit wishy washy but I do feel like I’ve been overcome with feelings that I’ve never felt before. I don’t really have any real reason to be in a lull but I am and I’m a bit sick of this shit.

Yeah I’m the same, I’ve found this one a lot worse. Everyone i speak to be it friends or work colleagues are all much more despondent this time.

I find my biggest problem is just having motivation to do anything, be it go for a run or just read a book. I just cant be bothered & end of sat on the sofa watching tv after work.

[Letters]

Already told myself nothing is changing until Easter tbh.

Think I’ve struggled with this lockdown more than the previous ones. January blues don’t help either.
I’ve always thought people who talk about mental health are a bit wishy washy but I do feel like I’ve been overcome with feelings that I’ve never felt before. I don’t really have any real reason to be in a lull but I am and I’m a bit sick of this shit.

:hug:

I think most people have had dips. I had one at the start of the first lockdown and then one late November. None of us are used to this level of isolation and I don’t think anyone expected it to go on this long.

By the way, re the Willen Lake incident. I walked through our local park today and it was quite busy. A fair number of people sitting on benches chatting. No real enforcement.
Seems like the police round here are being a bit more sensible and pragmatic.

[Ollie the Optimist]

:hug:

I think most people have had dips. I had one at the start of the first lockdown and then one late November. None of us are used to this level of isolation and I don’t think anyone expected it to go on this long.

By the way, re the Willen Lake incident. I walked through our local park today and it was quite busy. A fair number of people sitting on benches chatting. No real enforcement.
Seems like the police round here are being a bit more sensible and pragmatic.

I dont really know what the police can do tbh. We went for a walk in the park yesterday & along the river today. Both times we didn’t go further then about 2.5k from the flat so still local imo but both the river walk & park were completely rammed with runners, walkers & cyclists. You could not distance yourself from people as there wasn’t any space to go.

Neither were people breaking the rules it seemed. It was either families with young children or people walk as a two. The problem the government have is that by closing everything, you have no real option other to go where everyone else is. The police will struggle to stop that as well

[Niall_Quinn]

Why do you believe those numbers and not the ones about deaths from Covid?

How many times does this have to be explained? Or is it a game where people just keep asking over and over again as a way to take the piss?

1. Read up on what I have posted (tons of it) about the tests.
2. Read up on what I have posted (tons of it) on the two methods being used (now different to the first wave manipulations) to record a covid "death".
3. Read the CDC's own admission that around 6% of the first wave mortality rate could be conclusively verified.
4. Check the flu and respiratory disease mortality rates for 2020.
5. Read testimony from medical professionals who are furious about the changes to the way death certificates are being made out. And read quotes from senior health officials who encourage doctors to put covid on the certificate in ALL cases, even when the cause of death is obviously something different.

This has ALL been put up on the site. The process of becoming informed is to digest and retain information for later reference. By all means, throw out whatever you don't think is required, and retain what you think is useful (true or false, because reference points are important). But stop with the bullshit line of questioning that implies this all all new and hasn't been discussed so many times before.

As for the "up to" 23 dead in Norway, that came from an official Norwegian source. Do you see the way scum take very careful wording and just throw it away?

[Niall_Quinn]

:good: :lol:

Here's one example of the scum I was talking about. Referencing the lies of another scumbag who tries to claim context was not provided.

Lying cunts, the pair of them. Go and see for yourself.

[Niall_Quinn]

Raab on the media round today confirming that we will go into a tiered approached after lockdown, which i suspect most had guessed already. Also states that they will start to think about it in early march so that mid-feb date has slipped.

Only two months until we can exit lockdown & re enter tier 4 where you still cant leave the house !

It can only happen of the majority of people allow it to happen.

[Niall_Quinn]

MPs are asking these questions too. The fake and sensational death toll does nobody any favours, except the click whores at the BBC, of course. 2020 was the year where science and statistics ended in the mainstream and cult science and make it up as you go data came to the fore. But there are still real doctors and real scientists out there who practise the basic principles of science and base their conclusions on the observation brought about by repeatable scientific study, as opposed to bullshit computer modelling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1Lmoyw7QH4

[Letters]

As for the "up to" 23 dead in Norway, that came from an official Norwegian source. Do you see the way scum take very careful wording and just throw it away?

Your original claim:


Up to 23 elderly people in Norway have died after taking either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. 13 have been confirmed as directly connected, the rest are suspected.

As usual, no source provided so I had to go looking and found a source which claimed there were only 13 deaths.
Did a bit more digging and actually that is incorrect, it was 23.
But the "13 have been confirmed as directly connected" bit?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149


"It may be a coincidence, but we aren’t sure," Steinar Madsen, medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency (NOMA), told The BMJ. "There is no certain connection between these deaths and the vaccine."

and:


“There is a possibility that these common adverse reactions, that are not dangerous in fitter, younger patients and are not unusual with vaccines, may aggravate underlying disease in the elderly,” Madsen said. “We are not alarmed or worried about this, because these are very rare occurrences and they occurred in very frail patients with very serious disease,” he emphasised. “We are now asking for doctors to continue with the vaccination, but to carry out extra evaluation of very sick people whose underlying condition might be aggravated by it.” This evaluation includes discussing the risks and benefits of vaccination with the patient and their families to decide whether or not vaccination is the best course.

:tiphat:

:coffee:

This is interesting by the way:


5. Read testimony from medical professionals who are furious about the changes to the way death certificates are being made out. And read quotes from senior health officials who encourage doctors to put covid on the certificate in ALL cases, even when the cause of death is obviously something different.

It's interesting because it shows your confirmation bias at work again. You're saying here that Covid deaths are being over-reported, something I basically agree with. But because you're an anti-vaxxer you then are quite happy to over-state the link between the vaccine and deaths because it fits your worldview.
I know you're not big on introspection but have a go. Have a think about that logical inconsistency. Go on, I have faith in you

And while I'd agree Covid deaths are over-reported, I'd suggest a key thing to look at is all cause mortality. It was consistently higher than average over the autumn and by Christmas and the turn of the year it was 30% above that.

https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html

Since then numbers have continued to rise so it'll be interesting to see if that has gone up further the next time that is updated.
You say you've changed your mind based on the data but you now seem quite entrenched in your position despite the data.
I have changed my mind several times. I wasn't expecting a big second wave of deaths but that's what the data is showing, even if the Covid deaths are being over-reported, that doesn't explain the excess deaths this winter. And while it's true hospitals are under pressure every winter I saw some data suggesting this year is worse than it's been for some time - I haven't dug into that yet.

The constant ad hominem attacks aren't really helping anyone take you seriously by the way :)

[Letters]

Spit out a bunch of bile about people being stupid.

Mmm hmm.


Dude, just a suggestion based on hard experience with some of the more notorious posters here.
Most of these people aren't intelligent enough to glimpse the potential consequences of the insanity that's happening an ocean away.

:coffee:

[Niall_Quinn]

And the final point, which I was going to make but the monumental tit above did if for me, go and read the post the scumbags have descended on and you will see its actual context is in the response of the Chinese. The two mainstream bots above got triggered by the first sentence and couldn't see past it to the actual post. So they had a hyena gathering and then produced another snow job.

This is what you get everywhere now. In the so-called news, anti-social media, everywhere. The purpose is to prevent any sort of debate ever occurring and to drown those who insist on having one anyway.

Point one on the list I gave you, it all starts there. Once you understand how the lab process they are calling a test actually works and then you understand how they are using it, it sets the table for every other manipulated piece of data that follows. Grasp that issue alone and everything else is much clearer through the media fog.

[Letters]

This is what you get everywhere now. In the so-called news, anti-social media, everywhere. The purpose is to prevent any sort of debate ever occurring and to drown those who insist on having one anyway.
Says the man who can only respond, when his lies are pointed out, with abuse.
Again, your original claim:


Up to 23 elderly people in Norway have died after taking either the Pfizer or Moderna vaccine. 13 have been confirmed as directly connected, the rest are suspected.

I found a source where the medical director of the Norwegian Medicines Agency is quoted saying


"There is no certain connection between these deaths and the vaccine."

So...are you lying? Misinformed? Or am I misinformed? Is my source wrong? Do you have a source which says something different?
If so then great, please produce it and I'll take a look.
If all you can do is respond with abuse then it is you who are preventing debate, not me.


Point one on the list I gave you, it all starts there. Once you understand how the lab process they are calling a test actually works and then you understand how they are using it, it sets the table for every other manipulated piece of data that follows. Grasp that issue alone and everything else is much clearer through the media fog.

I'm not looking at cases, so I don't care if the tests are right or not.
And yes, fine, the numbers of cases may panic people. And a couple of months ago I was loudly predicting that the cases wouldn't lead to a big second wave of deaths but...I was wrong. Just look at the data. Even if the Covid deaths are being exaggerated, the all cause mortality is significantly above the average:

https://i.ibb.co/xSpGtCf/Excess-Mortality.jpg

(source https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid)

So there's clearly something going on right now. I don't believe the government's response has been right, it's been a shambolic mess of policies and U-turns which have definitely led to more deaths than there should have been and more people out of work and more businesses failing. But the mortality data tells me that there is a situation to be dealt with. If you're seeing something different then let's hear it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Got a letter from the school today outlining some "slight" changes to their child "safeguarding" protocols. They are happy to advise me those protocols have now been extended from the school space into the virtual learning venue. And what is the virtual learning venue going to be in almost all cases?

Your home.

Essentially the letter states, hello parents, we are happy to announce we have now usurped your parental rights in your own home. Have a lovely day!

Who are these people? From where do they get their magical powers to extend their rights in such a manner? It's not from the people. It's not from a sitting parliament, at least I can't find anything in the small print that legislates for this fundamental and sweeping change.

All the new laws and assumptive laws are going to stay in place. I suppose there will be one big show at some point where a redundant law is repealled with great flourish so we can all be assured our liberties remain intact.

So what's next? Now they have responsibility for your own kids in your own home, it will be quite interesting to see what powers they have when they come knocking with their vaccines. Step, by step by step.

[Niall_Quinn]

It has taken the Germans a few months to get up to speed, but they finally have the camps ready to receive detainees who repeatedly defy the government lockdown. Prison camps for citizens who blatantly go outside without permission.

Never again, and all that.

[Letters]

Essentially the letter states, hello parents, we are happy to announce we have now usurped your parental rights in your own home. Have a lovely day!
I suspect you are, at best, grossly misrepresenting what the letter actually says.
But I also suspect you won't provide the text of it so people can judge for themselves.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I suspect you are, at best, grossly misrepresenting what the letter actually says.
But I also suspect you won't provide the text of it so people can judge for themselves.

I’m going to assume its along the same lines of where employers have to ensure that you are working safely in your own home. Just because its your own home, they still have duty of care to ensure you have a decent work set up etc.

[Letters]

I’m going to assume its along the same lines of where employers have to ensure that you are working safely in your own home. Just because its your own home, they still have duty of care to ensure you have a decent work set up etc.

Yeah, we had all that when we started home working.
The bastards! Trying to *checks notes* make sure our working environment is suitable :sulk:

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m going to assume its along the same lines of where employers have to ensure that you are working safely in your own home. Just because its your own home, they still have duty of care to ensure you have a decent work set up etc.

A concern that crosses the threshold of a private residence? Will there be any limitation on the power of the state and its agents? Because it's not just a "concern", is it? It's a legal responsibility that, presumably (and based on the evidence that has leaked out from their horrific secret courts) overrides the legal and morally lawful rights of the parent.

There's an official police force and legal service that (theoretically) investigates and prosecutes crime, including crimes against children. Of course it's perfectly legitimate in a civilised society for any public or private individual to raise concerns with the relevant authorities when crimes against children are suspected (unless it's an establishment elite who's committing the crime, of course). But after that, if criminal behaviour is not suspected or confirmed, what business is it of any public or private individual or organisation to cross the threshold of a private residence and issue any type of demand?

If you have read any of the stack of bills being passed into law on the back of this casedemic you might notice in many cases the provisions of the bill tend to extend to a long list of government agencies, in many cases without any reason given why such broad provision is warranted. For example, local councils tend to get added to the list no matter what the nature of the bill.

It's extremely easy to see the state is extending its powers and rights and the powers and rights of its agents into every aspect of life. It's mandating an army of civil servants to act as a civilian policing force, rather like East Germany perfected during the communist era. It would be interesting to know what possible good can even be imagined for such aggressive abuses of privacy, civil liberties and natural rights.

How is this all to be enforced anyway? Will the gossiped whispers of a busybody be enough to start the ball rolling? Or the tall tales of a child who has no perception of the potential consequences? And will our new enforcers actually be trained in their new duties or do they make it up as they go and hope for the best (I already know the answer to that having seen the chaos of the education system up close and personal). How about routine inspections? Nanny popping in to ensure everything is in good order, ticking a few boxes, maybe tutting and giving you one last chance to sort your act out?

Will never happen. These new laws will only be in place until the state confirms it has beaten covid, which should be any day now.

[Letters]

Sounds plausible :lol:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-55705272

[Mac76]

Sounds plausible :lol:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-55705272

i see they've borrowed Corbyn's famous 'ram-packed' (https://blog.bham.ac.uk/susanhunston/2016/09/01/jeremys-ram-packed-train/) phrase which is actually a mashup of two genuine phrases, i.e. 'rammed' and 'jam-packed'

English language :rose:

[selassie]

Got a letter from the school today outlining some "slight" changes to their child "safeguarding" protocols. They are happy to advise me those protocols have now been extended from the school space into the virtual learning venue. And what is the virtual learning venue going to be in almost all cases?

Your home.

Essentially the letter states, hello parents, we are happy to announce we have now usurped your parental rights in your own home. Have a lovely day!

Who are these people? From where do they get their magical powers to extend their rights in such a manner? It's not from the people. It's not from a sitting parliament, at least I can't find anything in the small print that legislates for this fundamental and sweeping change.

All the new laws and assumptive laws are going to stay in place. I suppose there will be one big show at some point where a redundant law is repealled with great flourish so we can all be assured our liberties remain intact.

So what's next? Now they have responsibility for your own kids in your own home, it will be quite interesting to see what powers they have when they come knocking with their vaccines. Step, by step by step.

What did your letter state NQ? The facts and not some remixed version coming out of your mouth.

I have children too and I too received a letter.

[Niall_Quinn]

What did your letter state NQ? The facts and not some remixed version coming out of your mouth.

I have children too and I too received a letter.

What I said. They are extending their duty of care (termed as "safeguarding") to the environment where virtual learning occurs. What that actually means in terms of the full scope is not defined, they refer simply to their "existing policies and guidelines". It's the legal implications I'm concerned about. I've had to deal with this "duty of care" business before with the NHS when we had to fight them off with a chair and whip to prevent an endless stream of needless appointments and tests and (basically) digging around for something, anything they could find to keep the kids on their schedule. All stemming from one of the kids mentioning they often felt tired. We have a teacher in the family and (now that teaching is being done from home) I've heard some of the calls related to "problem" children and, by extension, problem parents.

What does your letter say?

[Letters]

1,610 Covid deaths in the UK today. A new PB. Or PW, I guess.
I'll be interested to see the next update of the all cause mortality, at the turn of the year it was 30% above the average, Covid numbers have gone up since so I suspect that may get worse but we'll see.

[selassie]

What I said. They are extending their duty of care (termed as "safeguarding") to the environment where virtual learning occurs. What that actually means in terms of the full scope is not defined, they refer simply to their "existing policies and guidelines". It's the legal implications I'm concerned about. I've had to deal with this "duty of care" business before with the NHS when we had to fight them off with a chair and whip to prevent an endless stream of needless appointments and tests and (basically) digging around for something, anything they could find to keep the kids on their schedule. All stemming from one of the kids mentioning they often felt tired. We have a teacher in the family and (now that teaching is being done from home) I've heard some of the calls related to "problem" children and, by extension, problem parents.

What does your letter say?

Pretty much what yours said, safeguarding. I didn’t read too much into it, I mean it’s just politically correct jargon for “we as a school want to ensure the conditions presented to our pupils are satisfactory for them to continue their education in these difficult times”.

I certainly don’t see it as control or digging around, but that’s just me.

[Niall_Quinn]

Pretty much what yours said, safeguarding. I didn’t read too much into it, I mean it’s just politically correct jargon for “we as a school want to ensure the conditions presented to our pupils are satisfactory for them to continue their education in these difficult times”.

I certainly don’t see it as control or digging around, but that’s just me.

The teachers won't abuse the changes to the law. The politicians will. The teachers will use the law to do what they are supposed to do, even though I view this development as an extreme overreach (and the teachers probably do too, in practical terms). Teachers already do two jobs for the price of one - daily teaching, and nightly lesson prep. They are also expected to be temporary (until now) legal guardians for the children that are placed in their care. They aren't trained to do the latter. They don't have time to do the latter. This is the state fucking over both teachers and parents. Basically they have said, hey we have a great opportunity to extend our powers here and it will look totally natural given covid. So let's do it. Let's load more work on the teachers, for no extra pay, and let's keep on fucking over the family and parents like we have been doing for decades.

It's the law that will be abused, outside the practical nature of the teacher's unwanted role in which it has been applied. How do we know this? Because history books.

[selassie]

The teachers won't abuse the changes to the law. The politicians will. The teachers will use the law to do what they are supposed to do, even though I view this development as an extreme overreach (and the teachers probably do too, in practical terms). Teachers already do two jobs for the price of one - daily teaching, and nightly lesson prep. They are also expected to be temporary (until now) legal guardians for the children that are placed in their care. They aren't trained to do the latter. They don't have time to do the latter. This is the state fucking over both teachers and parents. Basically they have said, hey we have a great opportunity to extend our powers here and it will look totally natural given covid. So let's do it. Let's load more work on the teachers, for no extra pay, and let's keep on fucking over the family and parents like we have been doing for decades.

It's the law that will be abused, outside the practical nature of the teacher's unwanted role in which it has been applied. How do we know this? Because history books.

That is your opinion and not a FACT. You are assuming the outcome of a situation that has not even developed.

Safeguarding is not a new thing, if our children are attending school, Safeguarding concerns are raised on a daily basis anyway and looked into by Schools and Social services if major concerns are raised. It is the responsibility of a school to do this. Do I think Safeguarding measures are fair? At times no..but ultimately our responsibility as Parents to both our children and schools is to ensure no such Safeguarding concerns are raised.

I fail to see your point, what benefit do the government have over controlling our children with safeguarding concerns when being schooled at home? It makes no sense what you are saying.

[Letters]

It makes no sense what you are saying.
Are you new here? :lol:

[Mac76]

Are you new here? :lol:

:lol:

[selassie]

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

That is your opinion and not a FACT. You are assuming the outcome of a situation that has not even developed.

Safeguarding is not a new thing, if our children are attending school, Safeguarding concerns are raised on a daily basis anyway and looked into by Schools and Social services if major concerns are raised. It is the responsibility of a school to do this. Do I think Safeguarding measures are fair? At times no..but ultimately our responsibility as Parents to both our children and schools is to ensure no such Safeguarding concerns are raised.

I fail to see your point, what benefit do the government have over controlling our children with safeguarding concerns when being schooled at home? It makes no sense what you are saying.

Let's wait a while and see where we stand with vaccines a little way down the road.

I think you are right though. Some people understand liberty and rights, others find such concepts incomprehensible.

[Marc Overmars]

NI extend their lockdown to March 5th. :lol:

Think we know where this is heading.

[Letters]

Yeah. Not looking good :(

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55751915

[GP]

It was never likely to end before Easter.

[Letters]

Hmm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55757807

£800. Might be worth it tbh :ninja:

[Marc Overmars]

£500 payments are being considered for everyone who tests positive. Basically a bung to self-isolate properly.

What are the odds those desperate for money would go out of their way to infect themselves? :lol:

[GP]

I'll have it for 500.

[Mac76]

Hmm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55757807

£800. Might be worth it tbh :ninja:

why not lock them all up with each other until they all infect each other and die?

sounds fair to me

[Ollie the Optimist]

£500 payments are being considered for everyone who tests positive. Basically a bung to self-isolate properly.

What are the odds those desperate for money would go out of their way to infect themselves? :lol:

This is quite frankly a monumentally stupid policy.

Many people are working at home on full pay, they do not need an extra £500 to self isolate. It could also lead to people trying to catch it to get a cash bonus!


That is not to say, properly supporting those on low paying jobs or those unable to work at home is a bad idea, it isn’t. Those are the groups who should be targeted for financial support.

Although perhaps, this may be one of those policies whereby giving everyone the cash is cheaper then trying to means test it etc.

[Letters]

To be fair it sounds like an idea which someone had which has been documented, no evidence it's being seriously considered.
But then it got leaked and now it's all over the press. And if I may go all NQ for a minute it seems pretty stupid of the media to be splashing this everywhere.

[Mac76]

To be fair it sounds like an idea which someone had which has been documented, no evidence it's being seriously considered.
But then it got leaked and now it's all over the press. And if I may go all NQ for a minute it seems pretty stupid of the media to be splashing this everywhere.

the media doing something stupid? what a novel concept...

[Letters]

the media doing something stupid? what a novel concept...

:lol: Indeed. Unfortunately, for certain paranoid people who can only think in extremes if you don't think the media are actively trying to constantly mislead us and pump us with propaganda then you have to slavishly believe everything the MSM writes. There are plenty of shades of grey and opinion between those two extremes and the truth of things usually lies there somewhere.

[Marc Overmars]

Sounds like they’re also considering closing the borders. About a year too late but whatever...

[Marc Overmars]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55764673

Got to admire the audacity. How did they think they’d get away with that? :lol:

[Mac76]

Arnie :bow:

https://twitter.com/mancunianmedic/status/1352543717341724672/photo/1

"None of us are going to learn more than them by watching a few hours of YouTube videos" :clap: :haha:

[GP]

Youtube nutters :bow:

Lamestream media :pal:

[Ollie the Optimist]

So boris opens up his press conference by saying that not only is the new is the UK variant more transmissible but its also more deadly.

Happy Friday :lol:

[The Wengerbabies]

Sounds like they’re also considering closing the borders. About a year too late but whatever...


Wonder if that will include dingies from France...

[The Wengerbabies]

£500 payments are being considered for everyone who tests positive. Basically a bung to self-isolate properly.

What are the odds those desperate for money would go out of their way to infect themselves? :lol:

I'm not desperate for money but I'd do that, why not?

I had it, it wasn't that bad I just slept all day until I felt better, gladly go through that again for £500.

[The Wengerbabies]

So boris opens up his press conference by saying that not only is the new is the UK variant more transmissible but its also more deadly.

Happy Friday :lol:

Does it have a 99.96% survival rate instead of 99.97%

How are people still buying this crap?

[Letters]

Does it have a 99.96% survival rate instead of 99.97%

How are people still buying this crap?

https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html

Maybe it’s because there have been consistently higher deaths than average all winter and it’s been 30% above average since Christmas?
It’s good you recovered quickly and many do, but quite a few don’t too.

EDIT: Can you provide a source for 99.96 survival rate?
That would mean if everyone in the country caught Covid there would be 28,000 deaths and we are way above that already.

[The Wengerbabies]

https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html

Maybe it’s because there have been consistently higher deaths than average all winter and it’s been 30% above average since Christmas?
It’s good you recovered quickly and many do, but quite a few don’t too.

EDIT: Can you provide a source for 99.96 survival rate?
That would mean if everyone in the country caught Covid there would be 28,000 deaths and we are way above that already.

I should have said for under 75s

And no I don't have a source look at the ages of who's dying and work it out for yourself, that's disregarding the fact that these are deaths with not of.

[Letters]

Wonder if that will include dingies from France...

How fucking desperate do you have to be, how shitty does the situation at home have to be, that you’d trek across a continent and get pay some opportunist scum a lot of money to get a place in an unsafe boat, knowing there’s a chance you or your kids might die, because you hope it’s a better life for you.
Obviously let ‘em all in is not a sensible police but do stop being a cunt FFS :good:

[Letters]

I should have said for under 75s
And you’d still be wrong.

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid#case-fatality-rate-of-covid-19-by-age


that's disregarding the fact that these are deaths with not of.

All cause mortality has been 30% above average since Christmas.
If that’s not because of Covid then what is it?

[The Wengerbabies]

How fucking desperate do you have to be, how shitty does the situation at home have to be, that you’d trek across a continent and get pay some opportunist scum a lot of money to get a place in an unsafe boat, knowing there’s a chance you or your kids might die, because you hope it’s a better life for you.
Obviously let ‘em all in is not a sensible police but do stop being a cunt FFS :good:



They're perfectly safe on the continent.

[Letters]

They're perfectly safe on the continent.

Well, they’re not getting bombed I suppose, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be as easy for them to settle in other countries although as this points out many do

https://care4calais.org/the-refugee-crisis/why-dont-refugees-stay-in-the-first-safe-country/

[The Wengerbabies]

This country is a shithole anyway, they're welcome to it.

I'm trying to gtfo but it's "illegal" JFL I really fucked up I came back just before Christmas, just before the new variant bullshit and tier 4 cos I thought with the vaccine now being distributed lockdowns, or at least the most draconian restrictions of not even being able to leave would be a thing of the past.

If I manage to get out I will be the refugee fleeing totalitarianism.

[GP]

Obviously let ‘em all in is not a sensible police

Why not? They come in such tiny numbers.

[Letters]

Fine. I meant a complete open borders policy wouldn’t work.

[GP]

Fine. I meant a complete open borders policy wouldn’t work.

Too late, they're in British waters so they're now British and happier for it.

[Niall_Quinn]

£500 payments are being considered for everyone who tests positive. Basically a bung to self-isolate properly.

What are the odds those desperate for money would go out of their way to infect themselves? :lol:

The tests are random anyway, they are meaningless. So this is a bit like a lottery. Take your test, get a random result, if it helps prop up the casedemic numbers you get to steal cash from your fellow taxpayers. See what type of people are running this shitshow?

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55764673

Got to admire the audacity. How did they think they’d get away with that? :lol:

They thought they lived in a free country. They were wrong.

[Niall_Quinn]

Does it have a 99.96% survival rate instead of 99.97%

How are people still buying this crap?

It's almost all down to the media. If we had a proper media this would have all been over 9 months ago. But convergence of the state, the corporations and their mouthpiece media means literally anything can be presented as reality. MANY people see straight through it. But there are also MANY stupid and gullible people. I think the latter still outweighs the former, but that's not certain.

[Niall_Quinn]

They're perfectly safe on the continent.

And that's where the law says they should be. Our law and International law. But that won't stop cunts trying to virtue signal. Badly.

[Niall_Quinn]

This country is a shithole anyway, they're welcome to it.

I'm trying to gtfo but it's "illegal" JFL I really fucked up I came back just before Christmas, just before the new variant bullshit and tier 4 cos I thought with the vaccine now being distributed lockdowns, or at least the most draconian restrictions of not even being able to leave would be a thing of the past.

If I manage to get out I will be the refugee fleeing totalitarianism.

It's all normal dude. All perfectly reasonable. You are being paranoid. The state has your best interests at heart. They really do care. How hard can it be to believe that?

[Letters]

The tests are random anyway, they are meaningless. So this is a bit like a lottery. Take your test, get a random result
How strange then that these "random" tests are correlated with hospitalisations and deaths.
You previously claimed to base your views on data, why are you ignoring data which doesn't back up what you believe?

https://i.ibb.co/RySTYdY/Covid-Stats-Jan2021.png

(Source https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/ )

[Letters]

It's almost all down to the media. If we had a proper media this would have all been over 9 months ago. But convergence of the state, the corporations and their mouthpiece media means literally anything can be presented as reality. MANY people see straight through it. But there are also MANY stupid and gullible people. I think the latter still outweighs the former, but that's not certain.

Excess mortality has been consistently higher than average since October growing to 30% above at Christmas

https://fingertips.phe.org.uk/static-reports/mortality-surveillance/excess-mortality-in-england-latest.html

You claim to base your views on data but ignore it when it doesn't say what you want :shrug:

[Letters]

They thought they lived in a free country. They were wrong.

Your definition of a free country doesn’t exist. Can’t exist.
Because you don’t live on your own on a desert island where you can do what you like without affecting anyone. You live in a society and that means your actions affect others. So there have to be rules, that’s the price of living in a society.
You can’t drive how you like, because you could kill someone.
So you have to take a test before you can drive and when you’ve passed that there are lots of rules about how you drive. None of this is because “they” are trying to control and oppress every aspect of your life, it’s because we live in a complicated interconnected society where our actions don’t just affect ourselves.
Obviously on individual issues there may be some debate - the smoking ban in pubs was hotly debated, now it seems to ludicrous to me that you could ever smoke in so many indoor public places. You may argue that it “infringes your liberty” that you can’t. But what about the liberty of others who don’t want to sit in a smoky pub and go home stinking. There is no perfect solution, whatever you do some people are going to be unhappy.

In normal times “they” don’t care how many people gather for a wedding. But these are not normal times, there’s a pandemic going on. You can continue to deny that if you must but I’ve shown the data on hospitalisations and deaths and excess deaths. You claim to make decisions based on data, if you think the data I’ve posted is incorrect then feel free to provide your own source for me and others to look at.

So in the context of a pandemic spread by contact there is a case that making temporary rules to prevent that makes sense. I’m not entirely convinced these rules are right but I understand the reasoning. They might not always have your best interests at heart but they’re not constantly out to get you either. Again, those aren’t the only two options.
These rules are a temporary response to the situation going on in the world right now. I’ve addressed the evidence for the situation with data. I know they’re temporary because the response has changed as the situation has changed and I imagine it will continue to.

Remember that you were the one who was predicting the army on the streets, curfews and checkpoints. What happened to that. For someone who has been so wrong about so much you do have a curious confidence in your ability to know what’s going on.
You might want to try some introspection.

[Ollie the Optimist]

The official data will be out later and include the doses from Northern Ireland but the data released so far for England, Scotland & wales is showing about 475,000 vaccines administered yesterday.

Once Northern Ireland is added, it could be close to 500k in a day.

The government might have got a lot wrong but this vaccination has been an incredible effort especially with the speed they ramped it up.

[Letters]

Agreed, they do seem to be getting this right.


...obviously that’s only because they want to make sure Bill Gates can put tracking chips into us as soon as possible ;)

[Ollie the Optimist]

A further 493,000 people vaccinated yesterday meaning just shy of a million people in total over Friday & Saturday.

I suspect given teh weather the numbers might be a bit lower for today but if we can keep up the 500k rate a day, it will be hugely impressive

[Ollie the Optimist]

You would have thought that by now, Boris would have learnt not to hold himself a hostage to fortune following his comments of “12 weeks to turn the tide” “ a normal christmas” etc

So today he has said he is looking at potentially relaxing some measures before mid february. At a guess, would assume that be similar to Tier 4 with some outdoor sport but still no indoor mixing & shops etc still closed.

Now, why say that? Why get peoples hopes up that things might be earlier then predicted because now when you dont relax measures, people will be angry (if they aren’t already :lol: ). Keep quiet & if you are going to relax measures, just announce it rather then teasing us with propect of it and lets face it, probably failing to deliver

[Marc Overmars]

It would be very helpful to a lot of people if outdoor sport was allowed. It must also be possible for even gyms to operate in a covid secure way? Wearing masks, wiping down the equipment after use, open windows etc.

Can’t see shit changing though. I’m sure he means well but when he’s slapped with the numbers there’s no way he’ll be able to follow through. So kindly STFU Boris.

[Letters]

Stuff like golf and tennis would seem perfectly reasonable, even if they restricted it to 2 people to abide by the "only one person outside your household" rule.
Two sports pretty much designed for social distancing.
Boris does need to stop over-promising and under-delivering.

[WMUG]

If you want to know when you can expect a vaccine: https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

I check it every day, and every day it gets closer, and I'm basically last in the queue.

Looks like there's a real possibility of getting our lives back before summer.

[Mac76]

If you want to know when you can expect a vaccine: https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

I check it every day, and every day it gets closer, and I'm basically last in the queue.

Looks like there's a real possibility of getting our lives back before summer.

that's really interesting - it says i'll get my first dose in March and the second in June...

[Letters]

that's really interesting - it says i'll get my first dose in March and the second in June...

You old bastard :pal:
I won't be getting my first one till April.
Saga magazine indeed (see BW). Bastards.

[The Wengerbabies]

If you want to know when you can expect a vaccine: https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

I check it every day, and every day it gets closer, and I'm basically last in the queue.

Looks like there's a real possibility of getting our lives back before summer.

Not a chance, I'm also basically last, says I can expect my second dose by 16/07/2021 (not that I'll be taking it)

You just know they'll keep pushing the goalposts back, first it will be few more weeks all over 50s will have had both, then they'll say wait just a bit longer and every adult can be fully vaxxed.

Then I bet we'll have another new strain, autumn will also be creeping up, better shut down again.

These cunts are never going to let this end.

[Letters]

These cunts are never going to let this end.

Why?
What possible benefit do “they” get from this ongoing situation?
I would argue that the UAE are a more oppressive regime than here (although they’re not as bad as some make out) and after their lockdowns - which were harsher than here - they have pretty much returned to normal (although cases are rising again there so that could change).
The government’s response to this has changed as the data has. I think they’ve got a lot wrong but it’s clearly a response to the situation.

[Ollie the Optimist]

These cunts are never going to let this end.

Such a stupid comment.

This is costing us billions a month. The government is paying a vast majoirty of people 80% of their salaries to not work. Tax revenues are down massively. Businesses are going bust and new businesses are not starting up.

A conservative government will not want to keep that going where the state basically pays everyone not to work. It’s not in their nature. They will want to reopen & get this country going again.

[Niall_Quinn]

Such a stupid comment.

This is costing us billions a month. The government is paying a vast majoirty of people 80% of their salaries to not work. Tax revenues are down massively. Businesses are going bust and new businesses are not starting up.

A conservative government will not want to keep that going where the state basically pays everyone not to work. It’s not in their nature. They will want to reopen & get this country going again.

First item is right. We are being bankrupted.

Second is wrong. The government doesn't pay anyone because it doesn't have any money. It distributes our own money that has been taken under duress, or loans from banks and corporations that we have to pay back at interest.

Why would a government care if people who can't be bothered to stand up for themselves are made penniless? What's going to happen? A stiffly worded letter of complaint? The state is now fully aware of just how docile the majority has become. Old rules don't apply. New rules are being written.

[Letters]

Why would a government care if people who can't be bothered to stand up for themselves are made penniless? What's going to happen?
So...the government don’t have any money, it all comes from “the people”.
And you don’t understand why they’d care if lots of people are out of work which means they have to be supported instead of taxed meaning the government have less money?

[LDG]

So...the government don’t have any money, it all comes from “the people”.
And you don’t understand why they’d care if lots of people are out of work which means they have to be supported instead of taxed meaning the government have less money?

Very much depends on how much will be privatised....

[WMUG]

Not a chance, I'm also basically last, says I can expect my second dose by 16/07/2021 (not that I'll be taking it)

You just know they'll keep pushing the goalposts back, first it will be few more weeks all over 50s will have had both, then they'll say wait just a bit longer and every adult can be fully vaxxed.

Then I bet we'll have another new strain, autumn will also be creeping up, better shut down again.

These cunts are never going to let this end.

Check again today. Guarantee it'll be sooner.

[Letters]

Very much depends on how much will be privatised....

Can you elaborate on this?
I can't see what benefit the government get from lots of people being out of work.
They might not be bending over backwards to help us (although I do think most people get into politics with the aim of making things better, unless you get right to the top there are better and easier ways to make money).
But they're not out to crush us like a load of Dr Evils either.

[Ollie the Optimist]

So an almighty row broke out over night between the Germans & AstreaZeneca (on the same day the EU have been attacking them for failing to deliver vaccines) where the German media stated (from off the record sources in government) that the AZ vaccine was only 8% effective on those over 65 and so the EU would not approve its use for over 65s.


It turns out the 8% figure relates to the amount of people tested over 65 in the trials. A quite major error. The German government have to issue a clarification confirming the 8% figure.


Being very cynical, the delays in the EU vaccine scheme with AZ vaccine are due to the EU commission taking longer to negotiate teh contract then we did, so supply changes took longer & they are looking at ways of deflecting blame. It’s backfired a bit today!

[selassie]

NI extend their lockdown to March 5th. :lol:

Think we know where this is heading.

I personally think this year is going to be a write-off. Don't think Boris and his merry band of errr.....staff will be making the same mistake again this year.

The economy is shot to pieces anyway, add Brexit on top and alas here we are.

[selassie]

If you want to know when you can expect a vaccine: https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk

I check it every day, and every day it gets closer, and I'm basically last in the queue.

Looks like there's a real possibility of getting our lives back before summer.

Don't be fooled into thinking taking the vaccine means we can also go back to living our lives normally, E.G Pre-Covid.

There is little information in regards to the vaccine, aside from it states that you can still technically pass on Corona if you have been vaccinated, they do not know how long the vaccine protects you from Corona, there is no information relating to side affects due to the fact that the vaccine has been produced and trialed very quickly.

There is no definitive information regarding whether the vaccine protects you from these new strains of Corona (South African and Brazilian one) that have developed.

I am not being negative and am neither for or against the vaccine, but I personally don't have enough information yet to feel comfortable taking it and I certainly don't believe it's as straightforward as we are all vaccinated life goes back to normal.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/coronavirus-vaccine/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMImrusjNa57gIV2-vtCh3guQgJEAAYASAAEgJGbvD_BwE

[Ollie the Optimist]

I personally think this year is going to be a write-off. Don't think Boris and his merry band of errr.....staff will be making the same mistake again this year.

The economy is shot to pieces anyway, add Brexit on top and alas here we are.

I think this year will be a write off to a certain degree. I hope by the summer we are back to some normality internally as a country where can visit friends/family, restaurants are open & some internal tourism but suspect rule of 6 or maybe some similar number will still apply.

No way there will be any international travel both business & tourism this year judging by the articles in the media.

[selassie]

I think this year will be a write off to a certain degree. I hope by the summer we are back to some normality internally as a country where can visit friends/family, restaurants are open & some internal tourism but suspect rule of 6 or maybe some similar number will still apply.

No way there will be any international travel both business & tourism this year judging by the articles in the media.

Aye, yeah I should have stated a write-off to a certain degree. I think there will be an element of normality in the summer but I think that will be governed by far stricter rules than last time I.E. no groups of more than 6 like you said, card only payments everywhere, proof of vaccination in certain establishments? I dunno...I guess I should brace myself but I certainly found going to a pub really testing last year when they opened back up....scanning your phone here there and everywhere was a stretch too much for me. But that's just me, we all have choices so you either follow the guidelines or do an alternative such as having a drink at home.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Aye, yeah I should have stated a write-off to a certain degree. I think there will be an element of normality in the summer but I think that will be governed by far stricter rules than last time I.E. no groups of more than 6 like you said, card only payments everywhere, proof of vaccination in certain establishments? I dunno...I guess I should brace myself but I certainly found going to a pub really testing last year when they opened back up....scanning your phone here there and everywhere was a stretch too much for me. But that's just me, we all have choices so you either follow the guidelines or do an alternative such as having a drink at home.

I think proof of vaccination will be tricky, certainly for most of this year because those who are likely to be going out places are going to be younger people who are back of the queue (rightly).

The over 80s etc are not going to be straight down pubs etc so if a vaccination passport came in, it could create a two tier system where the young cant do anything & the older generation can. It will create much more issues so i cant see it happening

[selassie]

I think proof of vaccination will be tricky, certainly for most of this year because those who are likely to be going out places are going to be younger people who are back of the queue (rightly).

The over 80s etc are not going to be straight down pubs etc so if a vaccination passport came in, it could create a two tier system where the young cant do anything & the older generation can. It will create much more issues so i cant see it happening

Aye, proof will be tricky, but can you honestly see pubs just re-opening and allowing all and sundry back in without being vaccinated or protected as the government like to say?

I appreciate that the infection and death rates will fall further into the year but I don't see the government making quick and rash decisions ala last year to ease the economy. If anything, they really do need to get it right this year because this stop / start causes just as much damage to the economy and businesses anyway.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Aye, proof will be tricky, but can you honestly see pubs just re-opening and allowing all and sundry back in without being vaccinated or protected as the government like to say?

I appreciate that the infection and death rates will fall further into the year but I don't see the government making quick and rash decisions ala last year to ease the economy. If anything, they really do need to get it right this year because this stop / start causes just as much damage to the economy and businesses anyway.

I think it’s probably reasonably safe to assume that pubs or restaurants having been closed for months will be desperate to welcome anyone in to start getting money in the till

[selassie]

I think it’s probably reasonably safe to assume that pubs or restaurants having been closed for months will be desperate to welcome anyone in to start getting money in the till

The pubs and restaurants might but will the government?

[Letters]

On the occasions I visited restaurants or pubs last year we weren't asked to scan anything. There was the QR code there for people to do so, but it was never mandated

[Ollie the Optimist]

On the occasions I visited restaurants or pubs last year we weren't asked to scan anything. There was the QR code there for people to do so, but it was never mandated

Didn’t it become mandatory to give track & trace details either via paper form or QR codes?

[Letters]

Thinking about it, I think some of them might have taken our address when we booked. I delegated that to the missus :d

[Letters]

We made it to 100,000 Covid deaths.
Boris :bow:

EDIT: 3rd worst in the world now in terms of deaths/million :doh:

[GP]

The country is lucky that the NHS is doing a good job with distributing the vaccine, because everything this government has done has been a fucking shambles.

[Letters]

Boris says he takes "full responsibility for everything that the government has done"

Well he should be fucking sacked then

[GP]

Whoever signed off on Eat Out to Help Out should be prosecuted.

[selassie]

The country is lucky that the NHS is doing a good job with distributing the vaccine, because everything this government has done has been a fucking shambles.

The sad thing is the Government has ordered the NHS to distribute the Vaccine against Scientific / Medical advice. The Vaccine program set out by the Government is 2 shots of the Vaccine within 12 weeks, the Scientists behind the Vaccine have stated that they have only ever trialed the Vaccine in the laboratory doing 2 shots within 3 weeks, it has not been tested over a 12 week period!!!

Boris and his merry band of errr...staff need to be fired, this whole COVID programme over here is an absolute shambles.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55820178

[Letters]

Whoever signed off on Eat Out to Help Out should be prosecuted.

Tbf I don't think that was a big factor. Schools is the big one - they're like petri dishes and while the kids won't get ill they will spread it into the general population. Even in Tier 3 schools were open, all the shops were open, facilities like outdoor football pitches were open. All they did was shut pubs and restaurants but far too late to have any meaningful effect. Well, it did have an effect - restaurants who had stocked up on supplies for the Christmas trade got another kick in the bollocks by being shut down again. How are you supposed to run a business when you can be shut down with a day's notice? :doh:
Then they told most of the country they could mix at Christmas.
Then they opened the schools for one day, insisting they were safe, before shutting them :doh:
Teachers have been thrown under the bus, gearing up for testing in schools and for the new term before having to scramble around setting up remote teaching again. And they've already cancelled all the exams anyway so you can understand kids who have struggled with remote learning anyway now having no motivation to do anything. And parents have been thrown under the bus because now they're having to help their kids with remote learning, many while trying to work full time too. Lucky for us the boy is only nursery age - although they are doing some remote stuff with him, I'm quite impressed - and MrsL is a "kept woman" anyway, so it hasn't really affected us too much.

All in all the government have consistently been reactive, not proactive. It's been a complete shit show

[selassie]

Tbf I don't think that was a big factor. Schools is the big one - they're like petri dishes and while the kids won't get ill they will spread it into the general population. Even in Tier 3 schools were open, all the shops were open, facilities like outdoor football pitches were open. All they did was shut pubs and restaurants but far too late to have any meaningful effect. Well, it did have an effect - restaurants who had stocked up on supplies for the Christmas trade got another kick in the bollocks by being shut down again. How are you supposed to run a business when you can be shut down with a day's notice? :doh:
Then they told most of the country they could mix at Christmas.
Then they opened the schools for one day, insisting they were safe, before shutting them :doh:
Teachers have been thrown under the bus, gearing up for testing in schools and for the new term before having to scramble around setting up remote teaching again. And they've already cancelled all the exams anyway so you can understand kids who have struggled with remote learning anyway now having no motivation to do anything. And parents have been thrown under the bus because now they're having to help their kids with remote learning, many while trying to work full time too. Lucky for us the boy is only nursery age - although they are doing some remote stuff with him, I'm quite impressed - and MrsL is a "kept woman" anyway, so it hasn't really affected us too much.

All in all the government have consistently been reactive, not proactive. It's been a complete shit show

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

Not closing the borders early or at least tightening entry requirements for those coming here was the biggest fuck up of them all.

[GP]

Tbf I don't think that was a big factor.

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/30-10-20-eat_out_to_help_out_scheme_drove_new_covid_19_infe ctions_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds/

[Letters]

https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/30-10-20-eat_out_to_help_out_scheme_drove_new_covid_19_infe ctions_up_by_between_8_and_17_new_research_finds/

Fair enough :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Not closing the borders early or at least tightening entry requirements for those coming here was the biggest fuck up of them all.

Killing all those people in the care homes wasn't great either.

[Letters]

Killing all those people in the care homes wasn't great either.

How were they supposed to know the patients discharged from hospital back into care homes had Covid if the tests don't work?

:coffee:

[Letters]

Schools won't reopen before March

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55828952

[Ollie the Optimist]

So lockdown effectively extended until march 8th as schools first to open. I know it was only slim hope of some things reopening in feb but still march feels a long way away.


I’m not sure what Starmer is doing in PMQs demanding certain groups are vaccinated next. He attacks the governemnt for not following science yet wants to change the way the vaccines are handled which are set by the Independent Joint Vaccination Committee not the government.

[Niall_Quinn]

This means we'll have more lockdowns this year and next because all the people they killed and are killing with these lockdowns, and fucking around with the NHS, have to be buried somewhere. Covid is certain to be the mass grave.

[Letters]

Further lockdowns depend on the efficacy of the vaccine IMO. If it's all it's cracked up to be hopefully things will improve and they won't be necessary.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Further lockdowns depend on the efficacy of the vaccine IMO. If it's all it's cracked up to be hopefully things will improve and they won't be necessary.

The big unknown is how it affects transmission of the virus. We know its effective based on the data so far at reducing the effects of the virus & therefore reducing amount requiring hospital treatment etc.

However, we cant tell how it limits transmission as we are all under lockdown. If it doenst limit transmission then suspect every winter will end up with some form of restrictions in place. Groups of six etc

[Letters]

Over time herd immunity will emerge and we'll move on. Spanish flu did have 4 waves I believe over 2 years then it went away - or rather we built up enough immunity to it.

One big crisis that's coming is that bacteria are increasingly becoming resistant to antibiotics.

[Niall_Quinn]

Citizens in France, Belgium and now the Netherlands are all suffering draconian curfews that haven't been seen since the Nazis were goose-stepping up and down the streets. Rioting is spreading across Europe. Maybe the French and the Dutch will have to save us this time around. Doesn't look like anyone in the UK is going to do much.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/coronavirus

This will probably be used in future text books when the great coronavirus scam is studied. Assuming we ever come back from this.

[Letters]

Who is being scammed, by who and for what purpose?

[GP]

Who is being scammed, by who and for what purpose?

Us

Them

CONTROL!!!

You're welcome.

[Letters]

Thanks for clarifying :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Fuck off Boris. Scruffy haired cunt. March 8th can suck a dick.

[Letters]

Not a fan?

[GP]

The scruffyness is an important point, actually.

He has so much contempt for you and me that he can't even be bothered to drag a comb across his head.

I bet he always ate the biscuit back at Eton.

[Niall_Quinn]

The scruffyness is an important point, actually.

He has so much contempt for you and me that he can't even be bothered to drag a comb across his head.

I bet he always ate the biscuit back at Eton.

A radical leftie with a hair fetish places you nicely on the virtue ladder. Better have some more champaign sent up.

[Letters]

The scruffyness is an important point, actually.

He has so much contempt for you and me that he can't even be bothered to drag a comb across his head.

It's not that, it's an act. Good old relatable Boris, he's just like you!

https://www.ft.com/content/db7e4d9e-8e90-11e9-b8cb-26a9caa9d67b


His famous disheveled look is actually, however, the product of a brisk, artful rearrangement with his fingers (just before the camera rolls) rather than any naturally occurring disorder.” Throughout history, many Brits have employed a considered use of mess and mayhem. Boris uses a shambolic veneer to fit in, to appear relatable, funny, even.

[selassie]

This means we'll have more lockdowns this year and next because all the people they killed and are killing with these lockdowns, and fucking around with the NHS, have to be buried somewhere. Covid is certain to be the mass grave.

If anything they need to lockdown the entire country until the infection and death rates are at a manageable level, I.E. the NHS hospitals no longer being at breaking point, and when it is medically safe to mix albeit socially distanced.

The stop / start bullshit of last year is why we are in this mess, highest death rates in Europe, yet we are a tiny island in comparison to some of our neighbours.

I don't like lockdown and it's inconvenient to me as much as anybody, but I don't want another year of stop / start.

[selassie]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/coronavirus

This will probably be used in future text books when the great coronavirus scam is studied. Assuming we ever come back from this.

Coronavirus Scam?!

This virus isn't real he said because it hasn't affected me or anybody I know :rolleyes:

[Letters]

Coronavirus Scam?!

This virus isn't real he said because it hasn't affected me or anybody I know :rolleyes:

I think he previously said that the virus is real but the pandemic is not. I'm yet to understand what he means by this.
I've shown the data which shows that hospitalisations and deaths are quite well above the average.
He said the tests don't work but I've shown the data which demonstrates a clear correlation between cases, hospitalisations and deaths.
He seems to think the restrictions are part of a move towards an authoritarian government but hasn't explained why the response to the pandemic has changed as the data has. He also predicted curfews, check points, army on the streets. :shrug:
In brief, I don't understand what his position about all this is any more or what the basis for it is. He said he changed his mind after the early days because of the data. My opinions have changed a few times - before Christmas numbers started to go down and I sneered at people predicting a big second wave but the data makes it pretty clear what has happened. I wonder what data he's looking at.

[GP]

https://www.readfrontier.org/stories/oklahoma-trying-to-return-its-2m-stockpile-of-hydroxychloroquine/

:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Coronavirus Scam?!

This virus isn't real he said because it hasn't affected me or anybody I know :rolleyes:

I actually pointed out how dishonest that form of "debate" is, several times and not too long ago. Now here it is again. Reprehensible, but fairly typical behaviour these days though.

[Letters]

https://newsthump.com/2021/01/27/there-was-no-way-to-predict-this-explains-man-to-nation-full-of-people-who-predicted-this/

Pretty much :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

So the actual news is the riots all across Europe and the fightback against the covid scam. Jan 31st is the Great Reopening, which will probably be a non-event in this country, but will be actively played out in less pussy-whipped nations. There's also the spectacular success of a "bunch of blokes on the internet" who just took down a Wall Street fund and forced the criminals in Wall Street and Washington to show the reality of things. Unvarnished.

So I plugged into the BBC to get up to speed. LOL.

Guess what. 100,000 people have died "from" covid. But all other diseases have been eradicated. It's a hard one, right? I mean it's great that there's only one disease left in the world. But it does seem to be quite lethal, given the 99.85% survival rate.

Queue the moron with his, "You think covid doesn't exist", punchline.

Once again. The tests, according to the inventor and now even the WHO, are fake. Based on this fakery you get a "case" count, with "cases" being a new definition where you don't even need to be sick. Based on "cases" you get hospitalisations, all for covid fo course because all other diseases are gone. Based on hospitalisation you get cashdeaths "with" covid. Based on deaths "with" covid, as defined by the new rules related to death certificates, you get the 100,000 headline which Boris was ACTING out. Based on the "deaths" you get your lockdown and your vaccine.

I mean I'm sure you've figured this out for yourself by now, but just saying.

[LDG]

Wallstreetbets :bow:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Tbf I don't think that was a big factor. Schools is the big one - they're like petri dishes and while the kids won't get ill they will spread it into the general population. Even in Tier 3 schools were open, all the shops were open, facilities like outdoor football pitches were open. All they did was shut pubs and restaurants but far too late to have any meaningful effect. Well, it did have an effect - restaurants who had stocked up on supplies for the Christmas trade got another kick in the bollocks by being shut down again. How are you supposed to run a business when you can be shut down with a day's notice? :doh:
Then they told most of the country they could mix at Christmas.
Then they opened the schools for one day, insisting they were safe, before shutting them :doh:
Teachers have been thrown under the bus, gearing up for testing in schools and for the new term before having to scramble around setting up remote teaching again. And they've already cancelled all the exams anyway so you can understand kids who have struggled with remote learning anyway now having no motivation to do anything. And parents have been thrown under the bus because now they're having to help their kids with remote learning, many while trying to work full time too. Lucky for us the boy is only nursery age - although they are doing some remote stuff with him, I'm quite impressed - and MrsL is a "kept woman" anyway, so it hasn't really affected us too much.

All in all the government have consistently been reactive, not proactive. It's been a complete shit show

The impact of EO2HO went far beyond the transmission of the virus in pubs and restaurants. It altered the entire mindset of the country.

The virus became something to worry less about. We were beating it. We were on our way back. So more people let their guard down.

It went way beyond a scheme to help restaurants. It was a prime cause if not the prime reason people changed their behaviour, let their guard down and became less careful.

Future history books will cite this as one of the worst public policy decisions in the history of this country.

[Letters]

Once again. The tests, according to the inventor and now even the WHO, are fake.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-14---covid-19---tests

:coffee:

[Letters]

The impact of EO2HO went far beyond the transmission of the virus in pubs and restaurants. It altered the entire mindset of the country.

The virus became something to worry less about. We were beating it. We were on our way back. So more people let their guard down.

It went way beyond a scheme to help restaurants. It was a prime cause if not the prime reason people changed their behaviour, let their guard down and became less careful.

Future history books will cite this as one of the worst public policy decisions in the history of this country.

Interesting. Have to say at the time it seemed like a good policy - give businesses a boost.
But you may be right in that it changed people's attitudes.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Interesting. Have to say at the time it seemed like a good policy - give businesses a boost.
But you may be right in that it changed people's attitudes.

I think this is a tricky one. At the time, cases & deaths were down. From memory, deaths were in teh single figures most days in August.

The policy itself was quite a bold & imaginative one and at the time, there was a clamour to get back to some kind of normal life. Not just here but in the rest of Europe where they encouraged tourism etc. I dont think any European country effectively kept a lockdown or reduced restaurants opening hours etc over the summer yet they have all been hit hard by teh second wave.

I dont think the British variant is the entire cause of the European second wave but maybe it will prove to be the case. My point here is that all countries have been hit hard in Europe yet only we had EO2HO i think. While it has led to an increase in cases, what would happened without that policy? People were going around each other’s houses anyway and mixing indoors yet restaurants/pubs were at least able to encourage a bit more social distancing.

[Marc Overmars]

It helped a lot of local businesses so I don’t think it was totally misguided. Most of these places have lost at least 7 months worth of trade including Christmas. Perhaps as a society we did let our guard down but so many places are being propped up by furlough and the grants given out to hospitality, so it’s just one of those things where there could have been serious consequences whatever action was taken.

The problem also was that bars and restaurants themselves weren’t implementing the rules correctly. They were so desperate to get people through the door, they never followed through on checking if people were from different households, scanning track and trace etc. I went out multiple times with friends and never once were we questioned if we were from the same household and sometimes we were never even asked to check in with track and trace.

[IBK]

The impact of EO2HO went far beyond the transmission of the virus in pubs and restaurants. It altered the entire mindset of the country.

The virus became something to worry less about. We were beating it. We were on our way back. So more people let their guard down.

It went way beyond a scheme to help restaurants. It was a prime cause if not the prime reason people changed their behaviour, let their guard down and became less careful.

Future history books will cite this as one of the worst public policy decisions in the history of this country.

Definitely food for thought (see what I did there?) - and combined with the mixed and confusing messages and management of the situation by the government and inevitable lock down fatigue it may well have combined to cause the shit fest that we are seeing.

Interestingly, i was talking to a Swedish friend yesterday and they didn't have any early lockdown and are still pretty lax - yet things remain far worse here. Different population density and profile, I guess.

[IBK]

It helped a lot of local businesses so I don’t think it was totally misguided. Most of these places have lost at least 7 months worth of trade including Christmas. Perhaps as a society we did let our guard down but so many places are being propped up by furlough and the grants given out to hospitality, so it’s just one of those things where there could have been serious consequences whatever action was taken.

The problem also was that bars and restaurants themselves weren’t implementing the rules correctly. They were so desperate to get people through the door, they never followed through on checking if people were from different households, scanning track and trace etc. I went out multiple times with friends and never once were we questioned if we were from the same household and sometimes we were never even asked to check in with track and trace.

Very difficult for businesses to enforce these checks though - even if they ask, people can and will say anything. I have seen a few shop staff try to challenge people without masks and they have ither been ignired, told to fuck off or told that the individual is exempt. The overall problem is that we do not have a tradition of civic obedience here, and there are no resources to enforce any restrictions...oh and people are stupid. As you will no doubt agree - there basically is no lockdown in London :angry:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Very difficult for businesses to enforce these checks though - even if they ask, people can and will say anything. I have seen a few shop staff try to challenge people without masks and they have ither been ignired, told to fuck off or told that the individual is exempt. The overall problem is that we do not have a tradition of civic obedience here, and there are no resources to enforce any restrictions...oh and people are stupid. As you will no doubt agree - there basically is no lockdown in London :angry:

I disagree with that. I live in Putney and you can see there is a lockdown. Not much traffic on the roads, people wearing masks in shops, queues outside them if busy inside. Yes its busy when you go for a walk or a run but then again, where else can people go? The only way to exercise is by going out for a walk so it means the river paths are much busier then normal.

More & more people who are walking are wearing masks outside now

[IBK]

I disagree with that. I live in Putney and you can see there is a lockdown. Not much traffic on the roads, people wearing masks in shops, queues outside them if busy inside. Yes its busy when you go for a walk or a run but then again, where else can people go? The only way to exercise is by going out for a walk so it means the river paths are much busier then normal.

More & more people who are walking are wearing masks outside now

Well I guess that's Putney for you (and good for them)! North London is a shit show.

[Letters]

Guess what. 100,000 people have died "from" covid. But all other diseases have been eradicated.

Well, no.

https://i.ibb.co/yQ6Y34p/Mortality-Causes.jpg

Other mortality reasons are fairly similar to other years - apart, notably, from other respiratory reasons which is what you expect. When there's a new kid in town it does dominate, that is known.
But other diseases which kill a lot of people aren't new and aren't transmissible in the same way that Covid is.
And Covid was killing more people than anything else last November and December. Probably still is:


In December 2020, there were 52,676 deaths registered in England, 10,594 deaths (25.2%) more than the five-year average (2015 to 2019) for December; in Wales, there were 3,941 deaths registered, 1,075 deaths (37.5%) more than the five-year average for December.
The coronavirus (COVID-19) was the leading cause of death in December 2020 for the second consecutive month in both England (accounting for 20.8% of all deaths registered in December) and in Wales (27.4% of all deaths); dementia and Alzheimer's disease was the second leading cause of death in both countries, with COVID-19 accounting for more than double the second leading cause in England and more than triple in Wales.

Source:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/december2020


It's a hard one, right? I mean it's great that there's only one disease left in the world. But it does seem to be quite lethal, given the 99.85% survival rate.

Can you provide a source for that 99.85% figure?
It's about 1% in richer countries which have older populations, less in countries which do not
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/207273/covid-19-deaths-infection-fatality-ratio-about/


Once again. The tests, according to the inventor and now even the WHO, are fake.

Already addressed. But if that is true then how would you calculate a mortality rate? How would you do that if the tests don't accurately tell you who has it?

I don't understand your logic here. If the tests are "random" - a word you used previously - then why would there be any correlation between cases and hospitalisations. Are people just being brought into hospital for the lolz? I previously showed you data that hospitalisations are higher than average, certainly in London.

https://i.ibb.co/B2q0wJM/Covid-Hospitalisations.jpg

So hospitalisations are above average.
Deaths are above average.

https://i.ibb.co/2vtLgDq/Excess-Mortality-Jan2021.jpg

That isn't BBC spin, I'm just looking at the data. What are you looking at?
What do you think is going on? Where's the scam? By who and to what end?

[Letters]

Well I guess that's Putney for you (and good for them)! North London is a shit show.

I'm in a posh bit of North London (or so I like to think) and people seem to be mostly behaving themselves around here.
Although loads of people were out in the snow at the weekend and have to say on a nice day the playgrounds are rammed with kids and parents!

[Mac76]

Well, no.

https://i.ibb.co/yQ6Y34p/Mortality-Causes.jpg

Other mortality reasons are fairly similar to other years - apart, notably, from other respiratory reasons which is what you expect. When there's a new kid in town it does dominate, that is known.
But other diseases which kill a lot of people aren't new and aren't transmissible in the same way that Covid is.
And Covid was killing more people than anything else last November and December. Probably still is:



Source:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/december2020



Can you provide a source for that 99.85% figure?
It's about 1% in richer countries which have older populations, less in countries which do not
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/207273/covid-19-deaths-infection-fatality-ratio-about/



Already addressed. But if that is true then how would you calculate a mortality rate? How would you do that if the tests don't accurately tell you who has it?

I don't understand your logic here. If the tests are "random" - a word you used previously - then why would there be any correlation between cases and hospitalisations. Are people just being brought into hospital for the lolz? I previously showed you data that hospitalisations are higher than average, certainly in London.

https://i.ibb.co/B2q0wJM/Covid-Hospitalisations.jpg

So hospitalisations are above average.
Deaths are above average.

https://i.ibb.co/2vtLgDq/Excess-Mortality-Jan2021.jpg

That isn't BBC spin, I'm just looking at the data. What are you looking at?
What do you think is going on? Where's the scam? By who and to what end?

I love the way Letters drives NQ's prejudice-driven nonsense into the ground with so many facts - i just don't have the time or the patience tbh

Letters :bow:

[Letters]

The problem also was that bars and restaurants themselves weren’t implementing the rules correctly. They were so desperate to get people through the door, they never followed through on checking if people were from different households, scanning track and trace etc. I went out multiple times with friends and never once were we questioned if we were from the same household and sometimes we were never even asked to check in with track and trace.
Right. I never scanned in anywhere. We had a pub meal with MrsL's parents one time, they just put us at adjoining tables.
There was no obvious Covid protocol when I played football.
And during half term we took the boy to soft play a couple of times. There was the veneer of being "Covid safe", a half hearted one way system.
But basically it was bedlam.
I've seen debates on FB about whether "the people" are to blame or the government. I'd suggest it's a little of column A and a little of column B.
There's no doubt that people have been irresponsible, but the government have made a hash of a lot of things too.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55844367

:lol: