Coronavirus Pandemic

[Niall_Quinn]

So if the boosters were designed for Alpha and Beta, and we know fuck all about Moronic right now, it makes a lot of sense to get the booster. Especially as it's concocted by Pfizer, who hold the world record for paying damages and are petitioning to have their testing documentation sealed for 50 years.

It's worth the risk because even if something goes wrong Pfizer has immunity.

Now that's an offer you can't refuse.

Literally - in Austria, Germany and Greece.

It's great to be free (as in, of no worth).

[Letters]

Of course a rise in heart attacks is not a coincidence.
Missed appointments, treatment and diagnoses was always going to have an impact.

[Letters]

Now that's an offer you can't refuse.

Literally

Right. And this is where even I draw the line.
If a high enough percentage of people have had the vaccine - and they have in many nations - then there is no reason for mandating vaccination.

I like to think our lot won’t go down that route, but they could all but enforce it in different ways by making it so you effectively can’t do anything without being vaccinated.

Exactly what we can do about it. I guess if enough people just refuse then there is no way they’ll be able to enforce it.

[Niall_Quinn]

I guess if enough people just refuse then there is no way they’ll be able to enforce it.

That's the whole game right there.

I don't wear a mask, not to be cool, or to rebel because I'm angst ridden, or because I don't want to hide my handsome visage, I don't wear it to show other people I am not afraid and I won't comply with arbitrary decrees that aren't supported by sound fact and humanitarian intent. The mask is a symbol, it has nothing to do with health in this context. If everyone has a nappy on their face this Christmas it sends one message to the profiteers - keep selling. If everyone is nappy free and smiling it sends a completely different, powerful message. This has always been about those who are prepared to face the consequences of saying no, and those who won't. That's the war. It's not us against them, it's us against us until, finally, it's just us together. That's the win condition for humanity and the lose condition for those who throw every abuse to divide and rule, not just with covid but with everything.

Your bet is people are weak and self absorbed. My bet is people will do the right thing when the shit hits the fan.

It's hitting now and we will see.

[Letters]

Could try this I guess

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/dec/03/italian-man-tries-to-dodge-covid-vaccine-wearing-fake-arm

[Niall_Quinn]

Nah. Two fingers works better.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ_iDVhlyNw

Bear in mind, this psycho Aussie dictator is only working his way up the pole right now. Even Hitler wasn't this crazy when he was worming his way into power. Can you imagine how fucked up this guy could be if given more power? Incredibly dangerous lunatic, like a lot of the sick bastards pushing mandatory medical assault.

[Ollie the Optimist]

PMQs will be interesting today.

Kier starmer has a large open goal that surely even he can’t miss it. If he does and somehow Boris comes out of the session ok, it’ll be curtains for starmer.

Or Boris announces a nuke is on its way to Russia as a distraction.




This Christmas party nonsense should be the end of Boris really. The party itself is probably not that big an issue in isolation but given the lies about it, adding in the barnyard castle etc etc. it’s just one rule of him and another for everyone else

[dazthegooner]

[QUOTE=Ollie the Optimist;4550150]PMQs will be interesting today.

Kier starmer has a large open goal that surely even he can’t miss it. (unless Aubameyang or Nketiah are delivering it ;))

[Letters]

PMQs will be interesting today.

Kier starmer has a large open goal that surely even he can’t miss it. If he does and somehow Boris comes out of the session ok, it’ll be curtains for starmer.

Or Boris announces a nuke is on its way to Russia as a distraction.




This Christmas party nonsense should be the end of Boris really. The party itself is probably not that big an issue in isolation but given the lies about it, adding in the barnyard castle etc etc. it’s just one rule of him and another for everyone else

This will bounce off Boris like all things bounce off him. Boris is bulletproof.
I sort of know how he does it - the bumbling affable buffoon act. It's depressing just how effective it is though.

[My mate who works in Number 10 tells me he didn't know about the party, for the record!]

[Mac76]

[My mate who works in Number 10 tells me he didn't know about the party, for the record!]

oh suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure....

you don't think your mate might be, like, spinning this or anything...?

[Letters]

oh suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure....

you don't think your mate might be, like, spinning this or anything...?

No. He's mostly been working at home and he's not that senior.

[Mac76]

No. He's mostly been working at home and he's not that senior.

oh you mean it was your mate who didn't know about the party - i thougth you meant bojo :lol:

[Letters]

oh you mean it was your mate who didn't know about the party - i thougth you meant bojo :lol:

Oh I see. Oh yeah, of course Boris knew :lol:

[GP]

Should be the end of Johnson. Hopefully the end of the Tories, too.

[Letters]

Should be the end of Johnson. Hopefully the end of the Tories, too.

Course it won't be :lol:

Everything just bounces off him. He'll waffle about wiff waff a bit, everyone will laugh and that'll be that.

[Letters]

Here's Boris, mumbling a vague apology, promising an investigation.
And another bullet bounces off him.

[GP]

Johnson taking a kicking at PMQ again. Same as every week.

I wish the people of this country were more politically engaged.

[Letters]

Johnson taking a kicking at PMQ again. Same as every week.

I wish the people of this country were more politically engaged.

On the other hand, he's got funny hair. So...

[GP]

On the other hand, he's got funny hair. So...

remember that time he was hanging off that zip line haha lol he's destroying the country

[Niall_Quinn]

Looks like it's Plan B for Christmas. Impossible to have seen that one coming. We live in chaotic times that are unerringly predictable.

[Letters]

remember that time he was hanging off that zip line haha lol he's destroying the country

Wiff waff :haha:

sigh...

I read something about that zipwire incident (think it was on Popbitch) about how he asked them to engineer it so he got stuck because he knew it would be a brilliant photo op. He's actually managed to pull off seeming incompetence as an endearing quality. It's kinda impressive.

[Letters]

Looks like it's Plan B for Christmas. Impossible to have seen that one coming. We live in chaotic times that are unerringly predictable.

I don't think anyone thought we were going to get through winter without any restrictions. The data is looking better this year though so unless that changes I'd be surprised if we get into another full lockdown. Pretty sure we'll be able to see family this Christmas which is a step up from last year.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we’re locked down again, it’s all round to Number 10

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think anyone thought we were going to get through winter without any restrictions. The data is looking better this year though so unless that changes I'd be surprised if we get into another full lockdown. Pretty sure we'll be able to see family this Christmas which is a step up from last year.

Plan B calls for covid passports. That's the predictability I was referring to, not the distracting stage props. We're about a year behind the front runners, but I have every confidence we can catch them and even pass them given the supreme (what shall we call it?) "tolerance" of the British public.

[Niall_Quinn]

If we’re locked down again, it’s all round to Number 10

You'll have to wear a mask if you're serving the toffs drinks. Our public servants like their servants to be in masks.

[Marc Overmars]

I don’t think there will be a lockdown. Possibly a work from home order and at worst rule of 6 and no mixing more than 2 households again. Maybe they will introduce this vaccine passport to enter bars and venues etc.

All sounds like a complete shit show though. Do we have to endure this bollocks every winter?

[Letters]

Do we have to endure this bollocks every winter?
Seems unlikely.
The only comparable event in recent history is the Spanish Flu which lasted a couple of years.
So if this follows the same pattern we should be past the worst.

[Letters]

https://i.ibb.co/qgSbZ3b/no10christmasparty.jpg

:lol:

[Mac76]

The first head has rolled... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59584736

[Letters]

I'm trying to get my mate to tell me if he has any intel about whether the party actually happened.
Let's face it, it obviously did, but it would be nice to have someone who might have heard more directly.
Suspect it's more than his job's worth to tell me though :lol:

[Mac76]

I'm really hoping work-related xmas gatherings will be for the chop in Plan B - that will free me up next week no end :lol:

[Letters]

Plan B!!!1!

[dazthegooner]

Lateral flow tests or covid test required for sporting events.

[Niall_Quinn]

Huge song and dance routine just so they can finally get covid passports over the line. But obviously the party thing is way more important.

[dazthegooner]

Copied the The Spectator. South African figures suggest Omicron is a milder illness. Early real world data from South Africa shows that only eight per cent of hospitalised cases end up in ICU. During the Delta wave it was 25 per cent. The average length of a hospital stay is shorter. Public Health Scotland have said not a single Omicron case has ended up in hospital so far. Sajid Javid said it’s the same in England.

[Letters]

Huge song and dance routine just so they can finally get covid passports over the line. But obviously the party thing is way more important.

By the way, the Covid Passports don’t necessitate being vaccinated, a negative test result counts.
#justsayin’

[Ollie the Optimist]

The problem with this Christmas party story is Downing Street can’t stick to any one line

- there was no party
- any event complied with the rules. But if there was no party, how did it comply with the rules?
- Boris was angry when he saw the video but again, if there was no party, what is there to be angry about?
- Allegra Stratton resigned over a party that never happened
- Simon case is investigating whether a party took place but Downing Street can’t confirm if he went to it or not


Honestly, just admit there was a party on day 1 and the story is lessened. Deny it and it gets worse. Just like the Owen Paterson nonsense

[GP]

Their position is untenable.

Call a general election and resign.

[Letters]

The biggest problem with this story is...it doesn't matter.
It literally doesn't matter what he does. He's been lying for decades, he's demonstrably incompetent and it just doesn't matter.
No-one cares - or not enough people.
Because he's funny.

150,000 dead. But wiff-waff! Ha ha haa!


:ilt:

[Xhaka Can’t]

This country has no effective governance nor is there the prospect of effective governance.

But there has to be some consequence to the lying, deceptive and incompetent shitshow in place.

I’d probably be more confident with a leader like Keir Starmer, but look at the clowns he’d have to take in to government with him.

That said, it can’t be worse than what we see now.

[Niall_Quinn]

By the way, the Covid Passports don’t necessitate being vaccinated, a negative test result counts.
#justsayin’

And Wigan is the halfway point between Westminster and Scotland. But at least Wigan won't move.

[Letters]

But there has to be some consequence to the lying, deceptive and incompetent shitshow in place.
There is a consequence, but it's for us, not Boris et al strangely.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is a consequence, but it's for us, not Boris et al strangely.

Well stop voting for these people then. How hard can it be?

[Letters]

Well stop voting for these people then. How hard can it be?

And then what happens?

[Ollie the Optimist]

I’m not in favour of mandatory vaccines and think we are not at the stage where we need to consider it at all.

however, if restrictions on peoples freedom keep being imposed because the need to protect the unvaccinated becomes high (majority in hospital are unvaccinated) there must come a time where a debate is had over whose freedoms are more important. The unvaccinated or the vaccinated who keep suffering from restrictions to protect the others.

at which point does it cross over from restrictions on those who have taken the vaccine to mandatory vaccines so that those who refuse have restrictions and others don’t

[Niall_Quinn]

And then what happens?

You can wake up in the morning, take a look at the shit going on and feel safe in the knowledge you didn't endorse any of it. You'll be clean. Then you could do whatever is in your power to oppose them, without supporting them at the same time.

[Letters]

https://newsthump.com/2021/12/09/man-furious-at-the-tyranny-of-vaccine-passports-choosing-to-ignore-bit-about-negative-lateral-flow-tests/


:ninja:

[The Wengerbabies]

By the way, the Covid Passports don’t necessitate being vaccinated, a negative test result counts.
#justsayin’
You'd have to constantly do tests everytime you want to go somewhere though.

Why are antibody tests not even part of the conversation?


The fact that he's done this now with all the controversy about the Christmas party just shows how much contempt they hold you in.

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.ibb.co/k57LDzP/h7682670si481.jpg


But don't worry we know it's safe....


https://i.ibb.co/bJ8ycKj/harx590bhi481.jpg

[The Wengerbabies]

I’m not in favour of mandatory vaccines and think we are not at the stage where we need to consider it at all.

however, if restrictions on peoples freedom keep being imposed because the need to protect the unvaccinated becomes high (majority in hospital are unvaccinated) there must come a time where a debate is had over whose freedoms are more important. The unvaccinated or the vaccinated who keep suffering from restrictions to protect the others.

at which point does it cross over from restrictions on those who have taken the vaccine to mandatory vaccines so that those who refuse have restrictions and others don’t

There is not and never will be a case for mandating experimental drugs for a largely benign disease.

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx7Jywu1-ow


:ninja:

[Xhaka Can’t]

You'd have to constantly do tests everytime you want to go somewhere though.

Why are antibody tests not even part of the conversation?


The fact that he's done this now with all the controversy about the Christmas party just shows how much contempt they hold you in.

Right now I wouldn’t put it past him to have had his latest sprig induced.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx7Jywu1-ow


:ninja:

Which post made you nervous?

[Niall_Quinn]

Right now I wouldn’t put it past him to have had his latest sprig induced.

First thing I thought when I heard the joyous news. Next thought was, fuck, they kidnapped a poor baby.

[Letters]

Which post made you nervous?
Sorry to hear about your sense of humour.
I hope it gets better soon.

[Niall_Quinn]

Sorry to hear about your sense of humour.
I hope it gets better soon.

I was only "joking"

[Letters]

Got on a train today for the first time in a while.
I wore a mask like a responsible citizen mindless sheep.
I reckon about 80% of people were wearing them.

[Letters]

Chatting to a mate this morning.
He was saying that if Boris tells people to not see family at Christmas he’s probably going to basically ignore it. And this is the trouble for Boris. Stuff like the Christmas party just bounces off him. But if it’s seen that he’s lost the moral authority to lead and it’s going to lead to mass civil disobedience then the party might have to do something.

Also. Major Waaaaave!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

[Mac76]

Got on a train today for the first time in a while.
I wore a mask like a responsible citizen mindless sheep.
I reckon about 80% of people were wearing them.

Yeah the same, but that's up from recently when it was about 50%

[dazthegooner]

Chatting to a mate this morning.
He was saying that if Boris tells people to not see family at Christmas he’s probably going to basically ignore it. And this is the trouble for Boris. Stuff like the Christmas party just bounces off him. But if it’s seen that he’s lost the moral authority to lead and it’s going to lead to mass civil disobedience then the party might have to do something.

Also. Major Waaaaave!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59621029

Major wave... Like the one we had in July when everyone was dropping like flies :sarcy:

[The Wengerbabies]

Hospitals are overwhelmed....

https://www.gloria.tv/post/ZEbpauhp2rjm3hAxEtUe4VSne

...with crisis actors.

[Letters]

So…when I spoke to that ICU doctor. His hospital was full of actors last winter?
If so then I must commend their method acting given how many of them died.

I wonder who hires these actors and why.
Obviously I don’t know what that girl is saying as it’s German, although I do know a German I can ask later for a translation.
But it’s quite a leap from some kid being an idiot and messing around pretending to be ill and “ThE HoSpItAlS ArE FuLl Of CrIsIs AcToRs!!1!”

[dazthegooner]

Well the government said that the homeless wouldn't be on the streets last Xmas didn't say where they would be homed though ;)

[Ollie the Optimist]

Boris to address the nation at 8pm.


“Fingers on buzzers, your first question is….”

[Letters]

Alert level raised to 4.
Are you absolutely sure you want to do that, sir?
It will mean changing the bulb.

[Niall_Quinn]

They should match the alert level to the number of boosters you need to make the miraculous vaccine work. Operation Omicron Booster! Sick people with serious medical conditions need not apply - get to the back of the long and growing queue. Oh, and keep on paying your fees. How outrageous does it need to get? Guess they'll need a new Greek letter next year to cover up the amount of deaths they are writing today - to save lives.

Anyway, I'm taking bets on that threat level going up just a few days before Christmas. Anyone want to take that bet?

[Letters]

Anyway, I'm taking bets on that threat level going up just a few days before Christmas. Anyone want to take that bet?
I do not.

I was talking to a mate from church on Saturday - one of the leaders, no less - who said his attitude was basically that after the Number 10 Christmas Party fiasco, if Boris tries to tell us not to see family at Christmas than he's going to basically ignore it. Some did ignore it last year of course, but a lot more will this year. People have had enough and with these recent revelations Boris has basically lost what little moral authority he had to lead. The national mood does feel noticeably more mutinous.

[Mac76]

I do not.

I was talking to a mate from church on Saturday - one of the leaders, no less - who said his attitude was basically that after the Number 10 Christmas Party fiasco, if Boris tries to tell us not to see family at Christmas than he's going to basically ignore it. Some did ignore it last year of course, but a lot more will this year. People have had enough and with these recent revelations Boris has basically lost what little moral authority he had to lead. The national mood does feel noticeably more mutinous.

i don't think they will tell people not to see close family - i think they need to focus on jabs and masks - if people realise the alternative is a lot worse, even the non-mask wearing idiots will realise it's better to wear one, as opposed to their not being able to go out because everything's closed...

[Letters]

I did have a look at booking a booster today. The NHS site is rubbish. It kicks you back in to the queue without warning if you take too long and then the stupid thing crashed on me

[Marc Overmars]

Like fuck anyone is going to listen if they attempt to restrict Christmas. They have absolutely zero credibility left.

[Letters]

As it happens, we're at home on Christmas Day anyway and have no-one coming round.
But we have lots of plans with friends and family on subsequent days and yeah, I have no plans to change any of them.

[Mac76]

I did have a look at booking a booster today. The NHS site is rubbish. It kicks you back in to the queue without warning if you take too long and then the stupid thing crashed on me

that's because you left it too late

it didn't take a c**t like Johnson to get me to make my booking (he says smugly) :)

[Letters]

Yeah, I've been prevaricating. Like I did the first time actually, and in the end I thought "oh go on then". I've done the same now but as you say now everyone in the world is trying to book!

[Niall_Quinn]

Evil prospers when these people wake up in the morning.


youtube.com/watch?v=cBma0axmY9k

[The Wengerbabies]

So Javid has said from the New Year you'll need 3 shots for your covid pass.

This makes it even less likely for me to get any, it'll simply take too long anyway to get the covid pass.

Also these passes have not worked anywhere they have been implemented (why would they, it just makes the vaxxed superspreaders) yet they are still being used/introduce. Why? Coercion that's why.

MEDICAL APARTHEID

[Globalgunner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1W2HkO7i8M&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nexIXKeKsNk&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

[Letters]

https://newsthump.com/2021/12/13/the-idiots-guide-to-comparing-every-little-inconvenience-to-nazi-germany/

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59640792

:popcorn:

[dazthegooner]

Yeah but it looks like Boris's friends over at the Labour party will push it through :sarcy:

[Mac76]

i know a guy who's an ST holder who's not been vaxxed at all - Arsenal are now saying you need a covid pass to get into the ground - wonder how he'll get on... :popcorn:

[Letters]

i know a guy who's an ST holder who's not been vaxxed at all - Arsenal are now saying you need a covid pass to get into the ground - wonder how he'll get on... :popcorn:
A negative test counts.

[Mac76]

A negative test counts.

ah ok...

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1W2HkO7i8M&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nexIXKeKsNk&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

Jimmy has stood up all through this and all through the Russia BS too. He's all for healthcare, for everyone. But willing to stand up when it's delivered in an obviously corrupt manner. Good for him, one of the last journalists standing.

I was going to post up propaganda videos in response to see if I could ridicule and bury what you have to say, because I'm afraid and I don't know what's going on and I need the state to be this wonderful thing that looks after me and would never exploit me. But I decided to watch the two videos you linked to instead. Yesterday, actually.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah but it looks like Boris's friends over at the Labour party will push it through :sarcy:

If only they'd have fought draconian civil rights abuses as hard as they fought Brexit, or at all.

[Letters]

Jimmy Dore :lol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvNXgDRv_RQ

[Niall_Quinn]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Gandhiji%27s_Three_Monkeys.JPG/1280px-Gandhiji%27s_Three_Monkeys.JPG

[Niall_Quinn]

Here are Global's links again, to save having to dig back through the recent snowfall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1W2HkO7i8M&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nexIXKeKsNk&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

[Niall_Quinn]

Christmas is such a magical time for school kids.


Dear Parents/Carers
We are looking forward to our Charities Week events which start tomorrow.
To ensure we run these events as safely as possible and to be in line with the latest guidance, we would ask that all non-exempt students and staff in the audience wear a face covering throughout the event and we would also ask that all individuals intending to attend an event take a Lateral Flow Test that morning. This will mean that some students need to take a test each day, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday so extra tests will be distributed in school this week.
Please note that students will need to wear their blazer on top of their Christmas jumper on Thursday and finally a polite reminder that cash will be required for all the events.
Best Wishes


Tis the season to be jolly. Merry ChristmasHappy Holidays!

[Letters]

Jimmy has stood up all through this and all through the Russia BS too. He's all for healthcare, for everyone. But willing to stand up when it's delivered in an obviously corrupt manner. Good for him, one of the last journalists standing.
Journalist?! He's a comedian turned YouTuber.

Your definition of propaganda is simply stuff you don't believe. Have a look at the video I posted - I haven't watched the full one which they reference but I plan to. But even in the one I posted it shows how Dore deliberately misrepresents the articles he quotes or even flat our denies saying things he previously said (which are still on YouTube so it's easy to catch him in the lie).

He was pro-vaccine, now he's anti. But the anti-vaxx stuff plays well with people who have a certain agenda or worldview and gets him more views, so...

[Niall_Quinn]

Journalist?! He's a comedian turned YouTuber.

Your definition of propaganda is simply stuff you don't believe. Have a look at the video I posted - I haven't watched the full one which they reference but I plan to. But even in the one I posted it shows how Dore deliberately misrepresents the articles he quotes or even flat our denies saying things he previously said (which are still on YouTube so it's easy to catch him in the lie).

He was pro-vaccine, now he's anti. But the anti-vaxx stuff plays well with people who have a certain agenda or worldview and gets him more views, so...

The answer is NO.

I will not ignore the content of those videos so the messenger can be assassinated.

And I've already seen all the shit they post on Dore, I already know all the background, going way back to the Young Turks where I actually despised the guy for one particular action which I'm sure he regrets today. In other words, I've done all my homework whereas you are the new kid in school.

The answer is NO.

[Niall_Quinn]

Here are Global's links again, to save having to dig back through the recent snowfall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nexIXKeKsNk&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1W2HkO7i8M&ab_channel=TheJimmyDoreShow

I've changed the link order so the upstanding moderator can't accuse me of doing what he's doing right here.

[dazthegooner]

The schools say 'Cash only' thought with Covid they would have preferred card payments. :unsure:

[Letters]

And I've already seen all the shit they post on Dore
It's not just "shit" though. In the video he gives concrete examples of Dore deliberately misquoting articles to make them look like they say one thing when they actually say the exact opposite. He shows Dore explicitly denying he ever said something which...well yeah, then he shows the video of him saying that exact thing. Dore isn't a journalist. He's a comedian. And a YouTuber. And he's in it for the clicks, which is why he now promotes a message which get him the most views. I think shooting the messenger is fair game if the messenger can be shown to be a liar, as he is in that video I posted.

[Letters]

I will not ignore the content of those videos
Just to add, you shouldn't ignore them.
But you should critically assess the content of the videos rather than just blindly accepting them because it confirms your worldview.
You accuse me of doing this with MSM. Do you do it with the content you consume?

[Niall_Quinn]

Give it a rest Letters. The only thing you have said about those videos, one of which is Dore saying "I don't understand, explain it to me.", the other where he sits quietly while another person speaks, is that Dore has no credibility and I blindly accept everything he says. Whatever. Irrelevant. You being you. You even doubled down by stating there's a longer shit-raking video out there you'll be watching. Incredible. You could have dug deeper into any of the relevant topics, but no, shooting the messenger with multiple rounds is your mission. Should you choose to accept it. Which you always do. What a fucking hero.

Global posted up these links WITHOUT COMMENT. The only reason I commented (I had already seen the videos) was because you did your usual thing whenever anything that bucks the official narrative is even casually presented. True to form, here you are proving my point.

[Mac76]

Give it a rest Letters. The only thing you have said about those videos, one of which is Dore saying "I don't understand, explain it to me.", the other where he sits quietly while another person speaks, is that Dore has no credibility and I blindly accept everything he says. Whatever. Irrelevant. You being you. You even doubled down by stating there's a longer shit-raking video out there you'll be watching. Incredible. You could have dug deeper into any of the relevant topics, but no, shooting the messenger with multiple rounds is your mission. Should you choose to accept it. Which you always do. What a fucking hero.

Global posted up these links WITHOUT COMMENT. The only reason I commented (I had already seen the videos) was because you did your usual thing whenever anything that bucks the official narrative is even casually presented. True to form, here you are proving my point.

do you ever do anything with your life except watch nutters on Youtube, get drunk and post crap on here?

have you been fired again? :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

do you ever do anything with your life except watch nutters on Youtube, get drunk and post crap on here?

have you been fired again? :haha:

Sad little groupie.

[Mac76]

Sad little groupie.

at least you're self-aware then... :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

The fascists are dragging out shit to cut into the debating period for the 6:30 vote on covid passports. It's a formality anyway, they have their instructions. But they can't even tolerate a proper debate? Supposedly one Labour MP will vote against.

[Niall_Quinn]

The ridiculous irony of dragging out an orchestrated debate on human rights so they can truncate a debate on the removal of human rights.

[Letters]

Give it a rest Letters. The only thing you have said about those videos, one of which is Dore saying "I don't understand, explain it to me.", the other where he sits quietly while another person speaks, is that Dore has no credibility and I blindly accept everything he says.
Alright. Fine. I watched the videos. So the one where he listens to Neil Oliver. I basically agree with him about Austria.
I've been clear that I'm against mandatory vaccination, offering jabs for time with a sex worker is crass at best.
The comparison between the unvaccinated and Jews seems hysterical to me. Especially given than people are choosing whether to get vaccinated. But I vaguely agree there's a danger of a two tier society developing, although I don't think that has happened here yet.
I note that Dore - when commenting on the church which only allows people with the "Passports" in - calls them Covid Vaccine Passports.
That is not true. As I've noted, you don't have to be vaccinated, a negative test will do. So is Dore lying here or is he misinformed?
Dore also says that "They love it, they relish in [taking away your freedoms]". Which is obvious bullshit. As I keep saying, the restrictions in this country have come and gone as the situation has. Even now Boris is clearly trying not to restrict things too much. And the "they" in Dore's statement is the Left, Boris may be many things but left wing isn't one of them.

The other video is his faux confusion about the death rate. He riffs on the 3.4% rate given in one article.
That article is from March 2020, before mass testing. Far too early for a number to be reliably known. And I found this article which cites that figure:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/who-says-coronavirus-death-rate-is-3point4percent-globally-higher-than-previously-thought.html

Literally the sentence after it gives the 3.4% figure it says:


The World Health Organization had said last week that the mortality rate of COVID-19 can differ, ranging from 0.7% to up to 4%, depending on the quality of the health-care system where it’s treated.

So it gives a range of numbers - you could argue that the headline shouldn't scream the highest one, you could argue that Dore shouldn't either. Is he deliberately misrepresenting that figure? He leans on it a few times in the video.
Then there's the old "you can be hit by a bus, test positive for Covid and be counted as a Covid death" thing. The UK actually changed their recording in response to some criticism around this. But I'd suggest that the all cause mortality rate is the thing which tells the real story.
I've covered that before, but there was a clear spike in all cause mortality in 2020 in the US and UK, that tells you that something unusual was going on.
And if you don't believe the official figures then I've related my conversation with the ICU doctor who has been at the sharp end of this.

Dore says "they want to make the death rate higher to keep us scared so they can do what they want."
"Them" again. Are "they" also faking low numbers so they can remove restrictions?


You even doubled down by stating there's a longer shit-raking video out there you'll be watching. Incredible.
Yeah, I'll have a look. If it gives more examples of Dore's lies and misinformation then it's informative.
What's wrong with shooting the messenger? You do that with the MSM all the time. If you think that <insert source here> has been shown to be unreliable, biased or lying then isn't that relevant when assessing their message? When Boris says something do you listen to the message and judge what he says objectively or do you think "Oh hang on, it's Boris..."?

Just because some bloke on YouTube is independent and not mainstream that doesn't make them right.
They're subject to biases like we all are, they're influenced by their worldview, they might be doing it for the clicks and spouting stuff they know plays well but which they don't necessarily believe.

[Niall_Quinn]

Watching a particularly horrific little tory runt lecturing to the house about "The Science". How would you feel, he asks, if your loved one (I think he means your family members rather than some kid you just groomed off the Internet, but don't quote me) was treated by an unvaccinated person? Depends, wouldn't it? If your loved one is vaccinated then what's the worry? Even if they catch covid (which they can also catch from the vaccinated) the vaccine and the booster will keep them safe, right? So, what does it matter if they are treated by an unvaccinated person? Can any of them answer that simple question? And if we can't get simple answers to simple questions, then why are they implementing far reaching, destructive and ruinously expensive policies?

[Niall_Quinn]

Alright. Fine. I watched the videos. So the one where he listens to Neil Oliver. I basically agree with him about Austria.
I've been clear that I'm against mandatory vaccination, offering jabs for time with a sex worker is crass at best... They're subject to biases like we all are, they're influenced by their worldview, they might be doing it for the clicks and spouting stuff they know plays well but which they don't necessarily believe.

So why the initial snow job? I'd be interested to know why you consistently do that, what your purpose is in doing it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Horrendous statistic just mentioned, by a Labour guy, which I haven't verified but is astonishing if true. Three quarters of a million cancer tests missed since this BS began? No wonder they haven't done a risk/ benefit assessment. They'd be locked up.

[Letters]

So why the initial snow job? I'd be interested to know why you consistently do that, what your purpose is in doing it.

I guess I'm just tired of this growing attitude that everything the MSM says is a lie. And it's compounded by the fact that now basically anyone can start a Website or a YouTube channel and with a fair wind get a massive following. So...you think the MSM are liars. OK. But the real truth...that's to be found from some bloke on YouTube? Really? Does he have expertise in the relevant subject matter? You understand that he has his own biases, his own worldview which colours his content? You understand that he gets more money the more clicks or views he gets, so he's incentivised to produce content which he knows plays well with his audience? And that's the horse you're backing? I mean, come on. Just because he's not part of the MSM, that doesn't make him truly independent, unbiased and truthful. And of course the MSM aren't to be entirely trusted, but that doesn't mean everything they write is a lie. If anything they're under far more scrutiny and there are more consequences for them if they're found to be blatantly lying than there are for "some bloke".

Dore is not new to me. I have a dim view of him. And yeah, that YouTube video I posted is a good example of why. Let's go through one thing highlighted in that video. This is the Dore video being dissected:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph-co5r_ylA

And this is the Fortune article Dore is referencing in it.

https://fortune.com/2021/09/28/singapore-covid-reopening-record-cases-vaccines/

This is the start of that article. I've put in bold the parts Dore reads out. Note the parts which he carefully omits which I'd suggest are relevant:


Highly-vaccinated Singapore is battling a record wave of COVID-19 infections just as the city plans to re-open to the world. But Singapore's 80% vaccination rate has kept severe cases and deaths down, potentially proving that living with the virus—versus trying to eradicate it—is the surest path out of the pandemic.
On Monday, Singapore recorded 1,647 cases of COVID-19, bringing its seven-day daily average to 1,545 cases, higher than any other previous wave of the pandemic. But even as cases soar, COVID-19 deaths in Singapore have remained low. The city-state of 5.7 million people has averaged three deaths per day in the last week. Singapore’s saving grace is its high vaccination coverage.
Singapore has now fully vaccinated over 80% of its population, one of the highest rates in the world. China's fully vaccinated rate is 73%, while the European Union and U.S. have fully vaccinated 65% and 55% of their populations, respectively, according to Bloomberg.
Experts say that Singapore's climbing cases, more than half of which are in vaccinated individuals, may signal that COVID-19 is becoming an endemic disease in the city-state, meaning COVID-19 circulates in a population like its four coronavirus cousins but doesn't upend lives due to widespread immunity. As long as deaths remain low, Singapore can set an example for how other countries, especially those that have maintained zero tolerance for COVID-19, can emerge from the pandemic.

Do you see the problem? You accuse the MSM of twisting things, or misleading. Isn't Dore doing the same here?
And then there's this bit. This is what Dore reads out:


But Singapore's growing caseload has raised alarms nonetheless because of the speed at which cases have climbed despite stay-at-home orders, intensive testing and contact tracing, and a ban on foreign visitors

I've bolded the word "despite". So the cases have risen alarmingly despite these measures...except that is not what the article says. This is the actual text. The part in bold is what Dore replaces with the word "despite":


But Singapore's growing caseload has raised alarms nonetheless because of the speed at which cases have climbed. Throughout July and August, cases in Singapore ticked up to over 100 per day after nearly a year of almost no infections due to the city’s previous zero-tolerance policy. That policy included stay-at-home orders, intensive testing and contact tracing, and a ban on foreign visitors

Now come on, that's just downright dishonest. The paragraph is talking about previous restrictions which have now been lifted and since doing that the cases have risen. Dore replaces that part with the word "despite" to make it look like cases have risen despite those measures. That is not what that paragraph says, it says pretty much the exact opposite.

Further down the article there's another paragraph which Dore ignores:


But the city's high vaccination rate is keeping people from suffering the worst effects of the virus. Authorities said on Sunday that 98% of people infected in the last 28 days have recorded mild or no symptoms of COVID-19. Singapore is discovering asymptomatic cases by testing close contacts of infected individuals. Kenneth Mak, Singapore’s director of medical services, told Singapore’s Straits Times last week that the vaccinated in Singapore have been 12 times less likely to die or require hospitalization than the unvaccinated.

The article is basically a success story. It talks about how Singapore locked down hard to try and keep Covid out completely, vaccinated the majority of their population and then cautiously reopened. And yes, they have had a big rises in cases since, as you'd expect, but the high vaccination rate is mitigating the more serious effects of that. The article is about them being a potential example of how to live with the virus. Dore spins it to say something completely different. That's why I have a dim view of Dore and I find it frustrating that you and others see him as one of the "good guys". He's every bit as dishonest as the mainstream sources you deride.

[Niall_Quinn]

You're tired of people finally seeing through the MSM? You're concerned because more people have spotted the neon flashing link between power and the press? And you, at least in part, blame left wing YouTube commentators for this sorry inevitability? So you feel it necessary to lazily throw up third party ridicule whenever somebody shares a couple of links? Are you sure this is just about the MSM and not something deeper?

I'm glad you managed to respond properly in the end though. In defence of corporations that probably killed a couple of million people in the MidEast over the last few decades with their lies, don't think Dore killed anyone so far, but you can't have everything. Maybe the best to hope for is you'll stop and think the next time you decide to be lazy and unthinkingly dismissive.

[Niall_Quinn]

So the covid passports that will never happen are here.

Next stop the never to happen mandatory vaccines.

[Niall_Quinn]

Have a read of Professor Stephan Lewandowsky (said expert) and compare to what Paul Barrett from Newcastle (possible real person) has to say. The professor has suggested people like Paul need to be helped with their extreme views.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/covid-people-one-university-of-bristol-hillary-clinton-b1971695.html

[Xhaka Can’t]

So the covid passports that will never happen are here.

Next stop the never to happen mandatory vaccines.

Oh we’re heading towards mandatory vaccination.

[The Wengerbabies]

So apartheid is officially in the UK.

"The science" has already said that 2 doses is now pretty much useless but these people get free reign to go where they please, despite being just as likely to spread it. This is nothing but more coercion and medical tyranny.

If you're genuinely afraid of catching it would you rather be in a crowd of untested but vaccinated people or a crowd of negatively tested unvaccinated people?

This is yet another "conspiracy theory" that has turned out to be true.

There is absolutely no logic in these passports in terms of slowing/stopping the spread, they've failed everywhere else they've been introduced.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh we’re heading towards mandatory vaccination.

To be fair, there will be the option to keep paying fines instead. Provided there's a choice I'm okay with it.

[Letters]

So apartheid is officially in the UK.
Holy shit, dude!
You are impossible to take seriously when you use language like this.

Like allusions to the Holocaust, this comparison doesn't stand up to the slightest scrutiny.
For one thing, you are choosing to be "black", to continue this ridiculous analogy. And you can choose not to be any time you want - in two ways, either by getting vaccinated or if you really think they're dangerous then you can get a free test and that counts for your Covid Pass.


If you're genuinely afraid of catching it would you rather be in a crowd of untested but vaccinated people or a crowd of negatively tested unvaccinated people?
If I was genuinely afraid then I'd get vaccinated as that has shown to be effective against the worst effects of Covid - see that article about Singapore


There is absolutely no logic in these passports in terms of slowing/stopping the spread, they've failed everywhere else they've been introduced.
Again, see Singapore. The vaccines are not just about stopping the spread of the virus, they're about mitigating the consequences of it.
Singapore have a high vaccination rate and since they've opened up the virus has spread. BUT deaths are low there. That's the point. It can also help slow the spread because fewer people will become symptomatic. No-one is pretending it's a magic bullet, but it's certainly not useless either.

[Niall_Quinn]

apartheid
/əˈpɑːtheɪt,əˈpɑːtʌɪd/

noun HISTORICAL
(in South Africa) a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.

segregation on grounds other than race.
"gender apartheid"

Or medical apartheid in this case. You can already see the media dehumanising those who have refused the vaccine. It's impossible to take anyone seriously if they refuse to accept the new reality that is right under their nose.

[Niall_Quinn]

Letters keeps forgetting to remind you the "free" covid tests (I wonder just how much of our money has been spent on these now?) need to be reported to the state each and every time. We laughed at the Aussies when they started demanding people provide mobile phone pics of themselves in isolation. But now we have the same idea here. Want to go to an arbitrarily restricted location or event? You must ask the state for permission. If a test that absolutely does not work (which is why follow-up PCR tests are demanded, which also do not work) says no - then you are not at liberty to engage with society in your desired manner. This so you are not a risk to people who are being jabbed to high hell with drugs that don't provide protection from infection or transmission. There's no medical logic behind any of it, no actual science. But as a control mechanism it makes perfect sense.

Some people don't mind reporting themselves and relinquishing control in this manner. Fair enough. Other people do. Not fair enough, apparently. The growing disrespect and dehumanisation of those who values their privacy and retain a belief the state is there to serve them rather than dictate to them should be a major concern to all.

The joke here is, it could be the vaccinated that are set to cause the long term problems to society. We just don't know yet. If the latest strain is as reported by African doctors it looks like the unvaccinated will be the recipients of much more effective natural immunity. But what about the vaccinated? That mRNA jab screws around with the immune system. The creator of the process has already said, fuck me, don't be going around vaccinating the whole world with this, it will cause big problems. But I guess he wouldn't know much about it.

All I know is I haven't put a single one of their chemicals in me and I still have an immune system despite the claims it disappeared in 2020. So whatever happens to me will be natural at least. Can't guarantee the same outcome for the vaccinated. Nobody can. Even the mid term data isn't in yet and the test data is so convincing it has to be locked in a vault for half a century. Then you add the waiver of legal liability? And add the massive profits being generated? I guess you have to be a right nutter to be suspicious. I mean big pharma, the world record holders for issuing dodgy products, would never fuck us over, right?

[Letters]

You're tired of people finally seeing through the MSM? You're concerned because more people have spotted the neon flashing link between power and the press?
People haven't "seen through" the MSM. The idea that the MSM lie and twist things is not a revelation. But some people - a growing number - are conflating "fake news" with MSM. People seem to increasingly think that something is fake news because it's on the mainstream news. But that is demonstrable bullshit. The top story on the BBC this morning is about the Covid Pass bill passing despite a Tory rebellion. Well...that's true, isn't it? There was a Tory rebellion. The bill did pass. Not everything the MSM write is inaccurate, most of it is accurate actually. And there's more scrutiny of them and potential consequence for them if they're found to be blatantly lying than there is for some bloke on YouTube.


And you, at least in part, blame left wing YouTube commentators for this sorry inevitability?

I don't blame them, I'm just lamenting the way things have gone.
Back in the day people like the BBC had a monopoly on "the news". And there is a danger in that, there shouldn't be one organisation, or a few, who tells you "the news". But now we are at the other extreme. There are a million news outlets, YouTube channels, blogs. All spouting their own agenda. Everyone can find and follow the outlets which confirm their world-view and biases. There's a danger in those echo chambers too.
As I've said, someone being "independent" doesn't make them right or truthful. They have a worldview and biases which colours their content. They need to pander to their audience to get the clicks so they're incentivised to make content which plays well with their audience.


So you feel it necessary to lazily throw up third party ridicule whenever somebody shares a couple of links? Are you sure this is just about the MSM and not something deeper?

It's not about something deeper, it's about what I said above. But fine, my initial response was lazy.


I'm glad you managed to respond properly in the end though. In defence of corporations that probably killed a couple of million people in the MidEast over the last few decades with their lies, don't think Dore killed anyone so far, but you can't have everything

I didn't defend anyone in my post. I just pointed out what Dore does in that video.
He deliberately misses out the parts of the article he's citing which don't back up what he's trying to say.
And one point he deliberately misquotes the article to make one paragraph say the exact opposite of what it actually says in the original.
And he's the good guy, is he?
These are exactly the things you deride the MSM for doing, aren't they?
This is my frustration. You sneer at me for following the mainstream media. But the people you follow can be just as dishonest.
Moreso if anything, they don't have any oversight. They are free to lie like the way Dore does in that video with no consequence.


Maybe the best to hope for is you'll stop and think the next time you decide to be lazy and unthinkingly dismissive.

Reasonable. And I'd ask you stop and think about Dore and other people you follow. Are they telling you the truth?
And this is a real problem these days, how do you know what's true? I don't have a good answer for that but I'd suggest cross checking sources is helpful.
Looking at a range of news outlets and see how they report the same story, see if they're quoting original sources and see if you can find the original source.

TL;DR - anyone can find YouTube channels or news outlets which pander to their own biases and worldview. I'd suggest that is not a better situation than having one mainstream source which tells you "the news".

[Niall_Quinn]

Okay, that's fair enough response which I can go with.

Propaganda is dangerous because much of it is based in fact. It is effective based on what it reveals, what it conceals and the context and emphasis it can place on key components of a message (often wrapped in a thousand verifiable facts). The facts are there simply to feed credibility and disguise the lie being administered.

For example, Boris and the BBC just the other day. First death in the UK 'With" Omicron? The BBC actually got it right, so did Boris. But that's not the point. The point is associating a death with a variant that stubbornly refuses to kill people. The screaming headline (#1 read article on the day) had almost no relationship with the article that followed. You lead with death and then talk about the necessity of the new measures. Fake news. It's not news at all, it's opinion. And it's fake because rather than informing it misleads by disguising the severity of the problem and indeed conflating it with a fearful headline. This has been the operating standard all along, just as it was for the war on terror and the WMD farce, etc.

Informed people see right through this. Those that don't have the time or inclination to inform themselves are vulnerable. When the latter is the majority the propaganda succeeds. Today, with covid, the propaganda has started to fail because a growing number of people have become informed, either through alternative sources (valuable or otherwise) or direct experience (most people I assume). Hence the MSM has been revealed as anything but trustworthy and, as a fact, complicit in deception.

Jimmy Dore (a leftie I disagree with on almost every economic and political issue) can say aliens have landed and we can laugh at him. That's fair. Or he can raise subjects the MSM propaganda methodically buries. Like old style journalists should and would, btw. The media is there to hold the powerful to account, that is why it was given so much freedom. The fact we have to rely on YouTube comedians to do that now is just a further indictment of the MSM. Dore won't get all his facts in a row, he's a guy on the outside trying to make sense of the opaque insider dealings. And of course the propagandists and the vested interests can throw money at such problem children and pick apart every last sentence, ironically delivering their own propaganda on the back of their "debunking" efforts (which 99% of the time are in turn debunked). But the aim is not to prove who is right or who is wrong, it's to keep eyes away from the taboo topics being raised. Just as you are doing in this thread. We haven't talked about the obviously inflated covid death toll - even though the Italian government and the CDC have. We haven't talked about the principles at risk from these covid passports or the fundamental relationship between the state and the governed. We've mostly talked about who is right and who is wrong, the MSM or those that criticise it. Wrong focus, missing the point, serving the propaganda effort.

And this is why Dore is a much better journalist than his so-called professional adversaries in the mainstream. He digs while they bury. The only disinfectant for propaganda.

[Niall_Quinn]

Xhaka is the poster who influences me most on this forum. He doesn't agree with most of what I say, but he's always given me a fair hearing. That works well for me.

You, Letters, have a long track record of doing the opposite. In my opinion and experience. So we butt heads all the time. I don't find you consistent in the behaviour you expect from others in relation to the behaviour you exhibit yourself. However, when you are reasonable I can reciprocate. I'm happy to keep things on this level going forward. I can work back from the "sheep" vs "conspiracy nutter" paradigm to something more constructive if you'll travel along.

You have taken the lead in diffusing this particular dust up so that's appreciated. Maybe a reboot for future engagement.

We'll see.

[Letters]

:good:

[WMUG]

Xhaka is the poster who influences me most on this forum. He doesn't agree with most of what I say, but he's always given me a fair hearing. That works well for me.

You, Letters, have a long track record of doing the opposite. In my opinion and experience. So we butt heads all the time. I don't find you consistent in the behaviour you expect from others in relation to the behaviour you exhibit yourself. However, when you are reasonable I can reciprocate. I'm happy to keep things on this level going forward. I can work back from the "sheep" vs "conspiracy nutter" paradigm to something more constructive if you'll travel along.

You have taken the lead in diffusing this particular dust up so that's appreciated. Maybe a reboot for future engagement.

We'll see.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HFnRSmEqNWI/hqdefault.jpg

[Mac76]

every cloud ... :ninja:

https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/14/brexit-voting-areas-of-uk-have-highest-covid-19-death-rate-study-finds

[Niall_Quinn]

every cloud ... :ninja:

https://www.euronews.com/2021/12/14/brexit-voting-areas-of-uk-have-highest-covid-19-death-rate-study-finds

A strange attitude for a left wing progressive, you'd think. But then again there was a lot of if going around in 2016 when we were hearing many wishing for the elderly to die because they were interfering with certain political agendas.

The 30,000ft view might propose Brexit as some sort of decisive factor, but getting closer to the ground I'd be interested to know the correlation between deaths and the increasingly shit and wildly expensive healthcare options that have often been described as a postcode lottery. Could that be a more compelling correlation? Or could several factors be at work, including the catastrophically failed GP system, the general levels of economic discontent in many regions of the country that suffer the great Northern divide, the regional age distribution, etc? The somewhat flimsy and overbearingly focused report even hints at some of these factors.

But I would agree a significant factor is likely the larger percentage of older people who voted for their nation and against foreign control. And it is the elderly who are most susceptible to respiratory disease. So I suppose there is some truth behind your celebratory gloating.

[Mac76]

A strange attitude for a left wing progressive, you'd think.


i agree but then i'm not left wing...

[Letters]

Highest number of cases since the start of the pandemic :bow:

[Letters]

Just seen this from an ex-GWer who is there tonight:

“ Not discussing the wrong or rights of the covid passport but had several emails from Arsenal Over the week saying about it make it available etc walked through without being asked now at my seat”

So… :shrug:

[Letters]

Cross checked with another Gooner there tonight.
Also not asked to show the “passport”.

[WMUG]

I was, my dad wasn't. We got there 90 minutes early to avoid any chaos, but there wasn't any.

[Letters]

Interesting. They were obviously doing spot checks.

[Letters]

Right...


You can already see the media dehumanising those who have refused the vaccine.
I'm interested in that statement. Can you give an example of that?


But as a control mechanism it makes perfect sense.
I'd suggest that's only true if all the things you said which that is predicated on are true.
And I don't think they are true.
Events or locations are not being restricted arbitrarily. It's places where a lot of people are mixing in close proximity. Which makes sense in the context of an airborne pandemic. It doesn't make sense in the context of this being about control. So they want to control people's access to nightclubs and football stadiums, but not shops or pubs? Of course we can probably point to some inconsistencies in the rules, some things which don't really make sense. But it's not a binary thing. A measure doesn't have to be 100% effective to make a difference. Which also applies to the vaccine. Again, see that article about Singapore.
We've had the conversation about tests. I continue to disagree that they don't work. When you claimed the WHO admitted they don't work all they actually said was RTFM.
If this is about control then why do they keep changing the restrictions? Do they only want to control us at certain times of the year? Since June things have basically been normal. Now the infection rate is going through the roof they're doing things to try and stop that. And if you think the data is also being faked then...what, are they faking low infection rates at different times so they can remove restrictions?

I know you have ideological issues with the state giving us permission to go certain places - because that means they can remove that permission. I would agree with you if I felt the state were using that power to control or oppress us. But I don't. I don't believe this is some slide into an authoritarian or totalitarian regime, any more than stopping people opening their curtains or restricting what people could buy was in the War. The wartime government were dealing with "a situation" as are our current government. You can argue they've made a right hash of it, but I don't see how you can argue that they're trying to control us. If that were true then why do they keep on removing restrictions when the data allows? There hasn't been a clear direction of travel towards totalitarianism, restrictions have been imposed and lifted depending on the data.


Propaganda is dangerous because much of it is based in fact. It is effective based on what it reveals, what it conceals and the context and emphasis it can place on key components of a message (often wrapped in a thousand verifiable facts). The facts are there simply to feed credibility and disguise the lie being administered.

Right. This I can agree with. But here's the point. The above description is exactly what Dore does in the video I talked about. He's basing his rhetoric on a real article, he quotes parts of it. But he leaves out parts which don't fit his rhetoric. And at one point he actually replaces a sentence with a word which makes the resulting paragraph say the exact opposite of what it actually says.
I didn't have to pick apart every sentence, I simply showed you the article he was quoting from and I highlighted the parts he read out and, more importantly, the parts he did not. Are you seriously telling me that Dore honestly represented the original article?
Come on, dude. This isn't someone who doesn't get "all his facts in a row". This isn't some outsider bravely taking on the MSM. He's a propagandist too, pushing his agenda. And most likely he's doing it for the clicks. His previous videos were pro-vaccine, now he's switched sides. Maybe because that was getting him more views? The more content he produces which plays well with his audience the more views he gets, the more money he makes. Just because he doesn't represent a big news organisation that doesn't make him unbiased or honest.


But the aim is not to prove who is right or who is wrong, it's to keep eyes away from the taboo topics being raised. Just as you are doing in this thread.

I'm simply pointing out that these people you follow aren't necessarily the "good guys". They're doing all the things you accuse the MSM of.

If you want to talk about the inflated Covid death toll then here's some data from the US.

https://i.ibb.co/HVjkgPB/usexcessdeaths.jpg

Something is killing a lot more people than usual suddenly, if it's not Covid then what is it? I'd suggest the spike in deaths above average started before any negative effects of lockdowns would be seen (I agree that lockdowns, missed appointments etc will have an effect).


We haven't talked about the principles at risk from these covid passports or the fundamental relationship between the state and the governed.

We have talked about that a bit. Honestly, I don't think the current measures are too onerous. OK, so you have to wear a mask in a shop (although it isn't being enforced). You have to show a Covid passport for certain events (I suspect that isn't being strictly enforced either - from the above it sounds like they were only doing spot checks at the Emirates). Given that the passport is valid if you have a negative test, I don't think this the most unreasonable thing. I would draw the line at mandatory vaccination or it being all but mandatory because of the restrictions if you are not vaccinated. We aren't there yet. I like to think our government won't go there but I wouldn't put my house on that one.

I don't believe the relationship between the state and the governed has changed. The state has always had the power to impose restrictions in extraordinary situations. They did it in the War, they're doing it now. If I believed for one minute that any of these restrictions were permanent then I'd agree with you, but I don't believe that. And the reason I don't is because I've seen the way the restrictions have changed over time. From June onwards life has basically been normal. Now more restrictions are being imposed, they were temporary last time so I believe they're temporary this. I don't believe the government just asking people politely to be sensible would work - in fact, you know it wouldn't. You were the one posting about how you saw people going about their business last year - and that was right in the middle of the first lockdown. A more sensible discussion is whether the government are taking the right measures, what they could have done differently. You seem to be saying they didn't need to do anything at all and they're only doing it to control us. I've explained why I don't agree with the second part of that, the data tells me I can't agree with the first part either.

[The Wengerbabies]

Listen to the experts....

but not these ones

https://odysee.com/@QuantumRhino:9/Dr.-Peter-McCullough-with-Joe-Rogan---The-Joe-Rogan-Experience--1747:b

For some reason Youtube have removed this

[Letters]

There are over a million doctors in the US

[Letters]

Listen to the experts....

but not these ones
To elaborate. Sure, listen to the experts. But as I said above there are a million of them in the US. Obviously they will have varying degrees of expertise in different areas, but there are a lot of people with medical qualifications who you could listen to. In a population of a million people it's impossible there will be unanimity. And some of them will probably have quite extreme views which aren't accepted by the majority. And with the internet they can spread those views to a lot of people.

This is the problem I was highlighting earlier. Everyone can find a source which backs up their own particular worldview and reinforces their own biases these days.
When you cross the line from healthy scepticism of the mainstream to "the mainstream view is always wrong" then you're going to seek out those extreme/fringe views.

So yeah, this guy is an expert. Almost all the other experts disagree with him. Why do you think he is he right and they are wrong? Is it simply because it fits your agenda?

[The Wengerbabies]

To elaborate. Sure, listen to the experts. But as I said above there are a million of them in the US. Obviously they will have varying degrees of expertise in different areas, but there are a lot of people with medical qualifications who you could listen to. In a population of a million people it's impossible there will be unanimity. And some of them will probably have quite extreme views which aren't accepted by the majority. And with the internet they can spread those views to a lot of people.

This is the problem I was highlighting earlier. Everyone can find a source which backs up their own particular worldview and reinforces their own biases these days.
When you cross the line from healthy scepticism of the mainstream to "the mainstream view is always wrong" then you're going to seek out those extreme/fringe views.

So yeah, this guy is an expert. Almost all the other experts disagree with him. Why do you think he is he right and they are wrong? Is it simply because it fits your agenda?


Why is he and others like him given no time on the MSM?

I'm as much an expert in this as Bill Gates but who do you see on the TV?

[The Wengerbabies]

In other news, Kyrie Irving is back in contention for the Brooklyn Nets.

After being suspended, banished and vilified for not getting the vax, he's being brought back because too many vaxxed players have covid. You can't make this shit up.

He'll only be available for away games mind, because of the ludicrous NY mandate.

If this doesn't highlight the ridiculousness I don't know what will.

[Letters]

Why is he and others like him given no time on the MSM?

I'm as much an expert in this as Bill Gates but who do you see on the TV?

How much air time should they give to every single fringe view?

[dazthegooner]

How much air time should they give to every single fringe view?

All of it ;)

[Xhaka Can’t]

In other news, Kyrie Irving is back in contention for the Brooklyn Nets.

After being suspended, banished and vilified for not getting the vax, he's being brought back because too many vaxxed players have covid. You can't make this shit up.

He'll only be available for away games mind, because of the ludicrous NY mandate.

If this doesn't highlight the ridiculousness I don't know what will.

Yeah…about that. https://www.tsn.ca/brooklyn-nets-kevin-durant-covid-protocols-1.1736549

[The Wengerbabies]

How much air time should they give to every single fringe view?

What about just a healthy debate where you hear both sides. It's not as fringe as the MSM would have you believe.

But okay fine he won't be on CNN or BBC but why are Youtube censoring him and banning such videos?

[The Wengerbabies]

Yeah…about that. https://www.tsn.ca/brooklyn-nets-kevin-durant-covid-protocols-1.1736549

Yeah, not really the point.

[Letters]

Yeah, not really the point.

What is the point? That vaxxed players are testing positive?
How are you not understanding this? The vaccine isn’t magic. It doesn’t put a force field around you and stop you getting infected. It just reduces the likelihood of getting seriously ill.

[Letters]

But okay fine he won't be on CNN or BBC but why are Youtube censoring him and banning such videos?
The issue of YouTube censorship is something I have mixed views about.
I know they censor flat earth content - I’m not sure if they remove the videos but they certainly flag them as untrue. Should they? It makes them the arbiter of truth. And does it really matter if people want to believe in the earth being flat? Up to a point it doesn’t. But I do think truth is important and it is worrying how people increasingly fall down conspiracy theory rabbit holes.

With other things, there are potential health implications for misinformation.
If someone on here started posting how, I dunno, drinking bleach is a good way of preventing Covid then should I just let that go? What if someone drinks bleach and then dies? That’s on me, isn’t it? Shouldn’t I do something?

I see this whole area as problematic. I don’t like the idea of censorship but I do think there is an increasing problem of misinformation which needs dealing with. The real issue is who decides what is true and what isn’t? What information is harmful and what isnt?

I don’t have a good answer but I do think misinformation and how to tell fact from lie is increasingly difficult.

[Ollie the Optimist]

If we aren’t in a lockdown by Christmas, its almost certain we will be for the new year.

This uncertainty is not sustainable, people cant make plans at all as you have no idea whether things will be cancelled or not. Earlier this year, the government said “15 million jabs for freedom” when we were in the lockdown and people bought into that. The vaccine was here so lets give it a chance.

Now, it seems they meant 15 million jabs per person!

[Letters]

I don't think anyone thought we were going to get through this winter without any restrictions.
I'd be surprised if they announce a lockdown for Christmas because it's too close now and after the Number 10 Party debacle are people going to listen?
The question is whether the rise in cases will be followed by a rise in hospitalisations. It hasn't so far but there is always a delay - in which case it's too late to lock down now anyway.

I was at a carol service last night. Most people were wearing masks but not all...and then we all went in to the other room for some food anyway so those of us who were wearing masks took them all off anyway!

[GP]

I had a positive LFT test yesterday and I feel like shit.

Wear your masks, people.

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.ibb.co/2y2gsvT/3rjbdqgkpk681.jpg

Just a conspiracy...

[The Wengerbabies]

Now, it seems they meant 15 million jabs per person!

Glad to see you're waking up. You're young (and I assume healthy) so presumably you only got the vaxx "to get your freedom back", now you realise you're never getting it back.

[Letters]

Glad to see you're waking up. You're young (and I assume healthy) so presumably you only got the vaxx "to get your freedom back", now you realise you're never getting it back.

Why are "they" only restricting our freedoms during winter when the cases are high?
Did they not want to restrict us from June onwards when everything was open?

[GP]

Why are "they" only restricting our freedoms during winter when the cases are high?
Did they not want to restrict us from June onwards when everything was open?

I still don't know why you indulge such obvious trolls.

[Letters]

I still don't know why you indulge such obvious trolls.

Partly to try and stop other people falling down the same conspiracy theory rabbit holes he has.

[Marc Overmars]

I had a positive LFT test yesterday and I feel like shit.

Wear your masks, people.

Half of my team have it so we’ve just packed up for Christmas, no point carrying on this week.

This definitely seems like the most transmissible strain. I know so many people who’ve had it since November.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Glad to see you're waking up. You're young (and I assume healthy) so presumably you only got the vaxx "to get your freedom back", now you realise you're never getting it back.

No i had the vaccine because I saw how badly covid affected friends & family (who are normally healthy)

[Letters]

Ollie's a crisis actor? Who knew!

[The Wengerbabies]

Why are "they" only restricting our freedoms during winter when the cases are high?
Did they not want to restrict us from June onwards when everything was open?

Mission creep.


Partly to try and stop other people falling down the same conspiracy theory rabbit holes he has.
Conspiracy theories are just spoiler warnings at this stage.

[Letters]

Mission creep.
Can you elaborate?

Back in May I said to you: "so you think that the government want to stop family and friends from meeting up, going for meals or to the pub and other social things? Why?"

And you said: "Control. They've gone power mad, I think that much is clear."

But...they didn't want to control us from June onwards? Even now, nothing is actually closed. That might change of course, but why didn't they want to control us for the last 6 months?

[The Wengerbabies]

Can you elaborate?

Back in May I said to you: "so you think that the government want to stop family and friends from meeting up, going for meals or to the pub and other social things? Why?"

And you said: "Control. They've gone power mad, I think that much is clear."

But...they didn't want to control us from June onwards? Even now, nothing is actually closed. That might change of course, but why didn't they want to control us for the last 6 months?
Placate the cattle by giving them opportunity to roam free while conditioning them to accept such restrictions.

Like the Irish deputy PM says

https://i.ibb.co/b1ff07s/s9cebsjami681.jpg

[Letters]

Placate the cattle by giving them opportunity to roam free while conditioning them to accept such restrictions.
Well that's going brilliantly. Most people I've spoken to plan to tell Boris to fuck right off if he tries to cancel Christmas again.
Nothing is being properly enforced anyway.
If we are sliding into a totalitarian regime then they're not doing it very well.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Sounds like we are going back to step 2 if the mirror & times are right.

It’s what it was back in April so no indoor mixing, pubs & resturants only able to offer outside service, holidays banned.

[Letters]

Interestingly, it sounds like the scientists are the ones we need to do this now and Boris who is hesitating.
IMO it's already too late for it to make much difference.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Interestingly, it sounds like the scientists are the ones we need to do this now and Boris who is hesitating.
IMO it's already too late for it to make much difference.

It’s absolutely right that the scienetists are challenged and their models questioned.

Their models said if July 19th went ahead we’d have 100k daily cases & up to 7000 hospitalisations a day. The numbers were no where near that so they need to be able to justify their models now in order to bring in restrictions

[Letters]

It’s absolutely right that the scienetists are challenged and their models questioned.
Sure.
But.
Do you seriously think that Boris is pushing back on restrictions because he’s carefully studied the data and science? He is not a details guy.
He just knows what people will think of him if he cancels another Christmas.
This is about his reputation, not what the right thing to do is.

(I am undecided about what the right thing to do is.)

[Letters]

Their models said if July 19th went ahead we’d have 100k daily cases & up to 7000 hospitalisations a day. The numbers were no where near that so they need to be able to justify their models now in order to bring in restrictions

By the way, be careful with stuff like this.
I don’t know what model you are talking about but it’s typical for models like this to make multiple predictions based on different underlying assumptions.
Of course the press tend to sensationalise and the headlines scream the worst case scenario, but it’s useful to try and find the paper it’s based on to get the full picture

[Ollie the Optimist]

By the way, be careful with stuff like this.
I don’t know what model you are talking about but it’s typical for models like this to make multiple predictions based on different underlying assumptions.
Of course the press tend to sensationalise and the headlines scream the worst case scenario, but it’s useful to try and find the paper it’s based on to get the full picture

I’m not 100% sure what model it is (imperial, Warwick etc) but I’m taking this from what was reported in the media about SAGE warnings over july 19th and their best cases scenario ended up being worse then what actually happened

[Ollie the Optimist]

Sure.
But.
Do you seriously think that Boris is pushing back on restrictions because he’s carefully studied the data and science? He is not a details guy.
He just knows what people will think of him if he cancels another Christmas.
This is about his reputation, not what the right thing to do is.

(I am undecided about what the right thing to do is.)

Boris is doing what is best for him (he has always done that)

But the data coming out of South Africa seems to imply omicron isnt actually that bad and their numbers are not going through the roof in terms of deaths or admittance to hosptial. I’m not sure why that wouldn’t be the case here.

The other argument made is that South Africa has better immunity because they had bigger waves previously. Again, not saying the scientists are wrong, but i cant quite get my head around that given we have had huge waves of infection plus our vaccination rates are significantly better then South Africa so why wouldn’t we have better immunity?

Lockdowns are an option of last resort. The first lockdown, people bought into it because nhs was under pressure and it was a new thing, the second one we had hte hope of vaccines so again, people bought into it to protect the nhs.

This time, we are all boosted or double jabbed and so far, no pressure on the nhs so its much harder to buy into lockdown. As i said, it is an option of last resort yet some treat it as a normal policy decision, it absolutely isnt. Just look at the damage it does, hospitality & tourism sectors are being destroyed. Pubs have no idea if to order their beer for next week or not.

The leaking of these decisions and avoiding making them is appalling and complete failure in leadership. It leaves many in limbo and that affects jobs etc.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I’m not 100% sure what model it is (imperial, Warwick etc) but I’m taking this from what was reported in the media about SAGE warnings over july 19th and their best cases scenario ended up being worse then what actually happened

As Letters said, there is no single model and rightly so. A range of scenarios are considered accompanied by a view on probability of the range of models. You may, if you read an entire article see some reference to the modelling methodology and most likely modelling outcomes, you may not. However, it is 99.99% unlikely you will see anything other than the extreme ranges of models screaming from the headlines or prominently featured in the articles.

Reality doesn’t sell newspapers, get clicks or views.

Think about it, how many times have you clicked on something or been outraged by a headline only to go through an entire article and wonder how they arrived at that headline? How many times have you read an article that actually contained an explanation of the modelling and the most likely outcomes predicted.

With all the ‘information’ we now have access to - more than at any time in the history of mankind, we are becoming increasingly misinformed. Sometimes that is funny and we can laugh at all those ‘morans’, sometimes it is far from funny and it leads to conflict and division.

On the last point - where do you think we are now?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Where do i think we are now?

It’s a tough question, so far the data coming out Africa etc about omicron is that while massively more transmissible it is seems to be milder then other variants of covid. This probably is a good thing as it means while it spreads faster, it does less harm to people so can be treated like a cold and we carry on as normal.

We are not yet seeing huge increases in deaths or hosptalisatiions and neither is South Africa which is what we would have expected given they had it first and if it was more deadly, that would be shown in teh data.

As i said earlier today, lockdowns & those kind of restrictions are a policy of last resort. There are huge downsides to them that must be factored in when making these decisions. Are we really needing one? I’m not convinced

[Letters]

We are not yet seeing huge increases in deaths or hosptalisatiions and neither is South Africa which is what we would have expected given they had it first and if it was more deadly, that would be shown in teh data
But...South Africa have only 5.5% of the population 65 and above:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/578938/age-structure-in-south-africa/

We have 18.6% of the population in that age group:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/270370/age-distribution-in-the-united-kingdom/

So that's a factor.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Fair point but then again, the vast majority of those over 65 are fully vaccinated here & almost all have had their boosters so if that isnt enough, what is

[Letters]

True. As discussed, I don't really know what the right thing is. You're right that hospitalisations and deaths aren't going up, but there is always a lag between cases and those things so I'd expect some increase in a week or two.
But the vaccine should mitigate that, certainly the ratio between cases and hospitalisations is lower this year.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Where do i think we are now?

It’s a tough question, so far the data coming out Africa etc about omicron is that while massively more transmissible it is seems to be milder then other variants of covid. This probably is a good thing as it means while it spreads faster, it does less harm to people so can be treated like a cold and we carry on as normal.

We are not yet seeing huge increases in deaths or hosptalisatiions and neither is South Africa which is what we would have expected given they had it first and if it was more deadly, that would be shown in teh data.

As i said earlier today, lockdowns & those kind of restrictions are a policy of last resort. There are huge downsides to them that must be factored in when making these decisions. Are we really needing one? I’m not convinced

Yes - it was quite a question. But it there is a point behind it. We are so poorly informed, it is impossible to arrive at a conclusion we feel comfortable arriving at.

I haven’t got a clue, but at the very least, I expect those closest to the data and resulting information to be taking decisions based on what is right rather than what is expedient. That is a difficult thing to do because all of the decisions have consequences, some of which may be unintended - i.e. increase deaths arising from other conditions that have fewer NHS resources available because of prioritisation to managing the Covid response and the knock on consequences of the stresses placed on the population losing jobs, businesses and income (though some have done very well out of this).

I have no confidence in the decision making process - there are too many ridiculous examples that make no sense - Scotch eggs, maskless in pubs/clubs but masks at the grocery store - etc.

Lockdown absolutely has to be a last resort, but it would help if people could comply with less onerous measures in crowded spaces.

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.ibb.co/rM00txS/6kzwa2fzno681.jpg

Interesting, WHO decided to change the definition of herd immunity and just ignore 100s of 1000s of years of evolution.

[Letters]

I couldn't find a source for that. I found this, which is from December 2020 - after either of the two above

https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/coronavirus-disease-covid-19-serology


'Herd immunity', also known as 'population immunity', is the indirect protection from an infectious disease that happens when a population is immune either through vaccination or immunity developed through previous infection. WHO supports achieving 'herd immunity' through vaccination, not by allowing a disease to spread through any segment of the population, as this would result in unnecessary cases and deaths.

So it mentions it can be achieved either way, although recommends vaccination as that doesn't involve people getting ill.

[Letters]

Christmas isn’t ruined :bow:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59747966

(Although most of our plans are actually after Christmas, so it might be!)

[GP]

Mine is.

[Letters]

:hug:

[GP]

No, I'm delighted.

[Letters]

Gives you an excuse to miss your brother’s wedding?

[Mac76]

Had my booster this morning, feel fine, no side effects so far....

[The Wengerbabies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50MEiD9_y90

[Mac76]

Had my booster this morning, feel fine, no side effects so far....

still no side effects, no voices from Bill Gates or Chris Whitty talling me what to do...

:tumbleweed:

[Letters]

How's your 5G signal? And are you magnetic yet?

[Mac76]

How's your 5G signal? And are you magnetic yet?

:lol:

[Ollie the Optimist]

I had no side effects for my first two Pfizer jabs bar a sore arm for a couple of days.


Last week had a Pfizer booster jab and by lunchtime the next day, completely wiped out. I was exhausted and 24 hours later, completely fine.

Seems most are getting some side effects from the booster even if none on first two

[Marc Overmars]

I felt rough as shit after my first jab but that cleared up within 24 hours. Second jab I felt nothing and the booster I felt mildly run down.

[Letters]

I’m in M&S. Absolute bedlam. This isn’t just Omicron, this is M&S Omicron.

[Niall_Quinn]

How's your 5G signal? And are you magnetic yet?

This is what makes it so difficult to get the corporations to bat straight. Half the population will just back them, unquestioningly. It's just a fact that 5G is being rolled out with zero research into the... anything. Forget health risks. There's no research on any aspect of this technology. You laugh and joke about it. Put yourself up there on a perch, taking the piss about something you don't have the first clue about. I used to be embarrassed on your behalf, but that changed once I discovered your were proud of your comprehensive ignorance. 5G was rushed into production because the east, where the state openly admits it doesn't give a fuck about the health of the population, was stealing (literally) a lead. So the west went to market without the first clue about possible consequences 24/7 high frequency electromagnetic radiation might deliver. Not definite consequences. But possible. We can't tell the difference because they actually boasted about how they didn't look.

I mean your ignorant humour is probably funny to you and your hangers on. And this is just a football forum so being uneducated and still having the nerve to speak doesn't pose a credible threat to mankind. And I suppose that's the basis you operate on. Proud of your ignorance and knowing full well it has no bearing.

But you shouldn't take the piss out of people who can be bothered to read. We need those people for when serious shit happens and it becomes inappropriate to rely on jokers such as yourself. Or, at least, if you do take the piss, do it stylishly. Make the scientific argument. Explain how an untested technology is definitely safe. You're as bad as those who say it is definitely harmful, logically speaking. Nobody knows. That's the whole point.

[Niall_Quinn]

I felt rough as shit after my first jab but that cleared up within 24 hours. Second jab I felt nothing and the booster I felt mildly run down.

You're a brave man taking three of those shit jabs. I guess the first two were AZ, which I think are entirely useless but not dangerous. But if you did the booster. Dude. Was that Pfizer???? That's a bit crazy. Natural immunity would have done you just fine. Don't know why you swapped it out for product from the murderous cunts (see history) from big pharma. Not very sensible.

[Letters]

But you shouldn't take the piss out of people who can be bothered to read.
If you look at what I actually said, I was quite clearly taking the piss out of people who believe in really out there conspiracy theories about the vaccine - that it has some link to 5G or can make you magnetic. Those are not people who are reading, unless you count believing conspiracy theory memes as reading.

As for whether 5G is harmful. Well, obviously it hasn’t been “out there” for 50 years so no one can be 100% sure by definition. But there’s no reason to think it may be harmful. A good video about it here. I trust this guy because I know enough science to know he’s not talking nonsense. In the video he cites a 5G engineer and shows a good graph of cancer rates in the US over time - including the time period when mobile phone networks became prevalent. I think that was long enough ago that we’d have seen some effect by now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C137OyVrzVA

[Niall_Quinn]

The video is titled "The Truth About 5G" That's a lie right there. We have a huge problem with science right now. In the interests of maximising profit more and more safety margins and protocols are being removed. And invested scientists will happily speculate or assume or outright lie to assure anyone who cautions against undue haste and corner cutting. There's also a track record of the consequences of this profit driven science. But the most worrying aspect of all is the censorship that is piling up against anyone who speaks out, regardless of their credentials. Couple that with the sweeping changes to legislation that shield corporations from the cost of their activities and it all amounts to an invitation to fuck the majority over so the minority can get rich as quickly as possible. These are the problems with "the science" and "the scientists" (or their repeaters) who use their expertise to excuse the rapidly developing anti-scientific environment. The technologies themselves are fine. Who wouldn't want better means of communication? Who wouldn't want effective vaccines? Who wouldn't want a cleaner planet? But when you look at the cunts who claim they will deliver all this and judge them by their actions rather than their words it's painfully obvious there will be significant costs to bear even when the benefits actually materialise (which is never guaranteed).

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59769969

Hooray?

[WMUG]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59769969

Hooray?

So it's more transmissible but less severe on an individual basis.

Could still see a rise in H+Ds for that reason.

[Letters]

The video is titled "The Truth About 5G" That's a lie right there.
Is it, though?
I mean, even if I cede that much of what you’ve said is reasonable, and I do up to a point, 5G isn’t some whacky new technology. It’s the electromagnetic spectrum, this has been known about and studied for centuries. It’s a different frequency, that’s all. It’s a low wattage non ionising radiation.
It seems vanishingly unlikely that there would be any ill effect. We’ve had radio and TV signals for a century, we’ve had mobile phone signals for, what, 30 years at least. I think we have enough data to know whether this is going to kill us all.

[Letters]

So it's more transmissible but less severe on an individual basis.

Could still see a rise in H+Ds for that reason.

Reasonable point.
I guess we’ll see in a couple of weeks!
This is the thing about imposing restrictions now. It’s too late. We are already at 100k infections a day, locking people down now is going to make no difference.

[Letters]

And now a message from our scientific advisers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnIjrQDwL2o

[Ollie the Optimist]

And now a message from our scientific advisers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnIjrQDwL2o

The side effects might be a bit worse that way :lol:

[Letters]

:lol:

[Letters]

Jabs for Jesus :bow:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/dec/24/covid-booster-jab-boris-johnson-christmas-message

[Mac76]

Reasonable point.
I guess we’ll see in a couple of weeks!
This is the thing about imposing restrictions now. It’s too late. We are already at 100k infections a day, locking people down now is going to make no difference.

That's probably the plan

A few extra people die but we can still go to the pub

[Letters]

That's probably the plan

A few extra people die but we can still go to the pub

Works for me :lol:

I am wondering how people who think that the government are itching to control us make sense of what is going on. Cases are a lot higher than this time last year, it’s the perfect excuse for restrictions but so far it’s been “could you wear a mask” and there the Covid Passport thing which you only need a negative test for. It’s hardly North Korea.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59807241

These are the worst authoritarians ever :(

[Mac76]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59807241

These are the worst authoritarians ever :(

Where's the army ffs? I demand we have them in the streets now :sulk:

[Letters]

If a test that absolutely does not work (which is why follow-up PCR tests are demanded, which also do not work) says no

This assertion you keep making that the tests don’t work.
I’ve not done any tests throughout this thing, I always resented the idea of doing them tbh.
But when I wasn’t looking MrsL ordered some lateral flow tests.
She was feeling really rough the week before Christmas and at times was quite breathless going up stairs. She didn’t tell me that last bit last week and I didn’t think it was Covid but on Christmas Day her taste and smell went funny so she took a test. Lit up like a Christmas tree, ironically. She did a second test and it did the same. I tested myself and that was negative - which I was a bit surprised by but I’ve not had any symptoms.
Boxing Day I tested our boy (lateral flow testing a 4 year old - 2 stars, would not recommend) and he was negative. I tested him again yesterday, and myself, and they were both negative again. MrsL tested herself again yesterday and it was positive again but the line was noticeably fainter and took longer to appear. Given the worst seems to be over for her that makes sense and I’m hoping in a couple of days she’ll test negative so we can do some family stuff.

Point being, do the tests work? All I can sensibly say from the above is the results I’ve seen have been consistent - the same person, who was experiencing symptoms, tested positive multiple times. The people who tested negative and who had no symptoms did so consistently too.

PCR we’ve spoken about before and the general wisdom there seems to be that you need to be careful about how many cycles you do to avoid false positives.

TL;DR - if by “don’t work” you mean they’re not 100% reliable then I’d suggest that is simultaneously true and not a sensible definition. That would apply to any test in the history of testing. But the lateral flow tests I’ve done gave consistent results and the PCR ones are generally thought to be more reliable by experts in the field if you do them right.

[Letters]

MrsL tested negative yesterday :trophy:
…and now I’m testing positive :doh:
Feels like a bit of a head cold so far. Certainly nothing I’d be testing for or seeking treatment for in normal times. But then I am young* and in peak physical condition**

*sort of
** fake news

[Mac76]

MrsL tested negative yesterday :trophy:
…and now I’m testing positive :doh:
Feels like a bit of a head cold so far. Certainly nothing I’d be testing for or seeking treatment for in normal times. But then I am young* and in peak physical condition**

*sort of
** fake news

Ok, take care mate, as you've had your jabs it shouldn't be too bad

[Letters]

It’s been fine. I’ve been a bit coldy but that’s about it.
It’s probably Omicron, or Covid Lite as I like to call it.

I have spotted a slight flaw in the Covid Pass thing though. I looked in to it ahead of a trip to see the Masters Snooker next Sunday, so long as it doesn’t get moved behind closed doors and I’m testing negative by then.

I got the pass ok, I guess based on my vaccination record.
The test stuff seems to be based entirely on people honestly reporting their results.
I didn’t report mine, not as part of some plan, I just didn’t bother to.
So it seems that you can get jabbed and then have a test which lights up like a Christmas Tree. So long as you don’t tell anyone about that you can do what you like

What could possibly go wrong? :lol:

If this lot are authoritarian then they are bloody rubbish at it

[Niall_Quinn]

Too many people in England are wise to the scamdemic now so a lockdown couldn't be forced through without the huge risk of open revolt. That's the good news. The bad news is the cunts have decided to get their own back by abusing kids again. This won't end until the pitchforks are out and the intention is focused.

[The Wengerbabies]

So it seems that you can get jabbed and then have a test which lights up like a Christmas Tree. So long as you don’t tell anyone about that you can do what you like

What could possibly go wrong? :lol:

If this lot are authoritarian then they are bloody rubbish at it
That's why the vaxxed are the superspreaders.

The nonsensical aspect reaches new heights when you consider international travel.

To enter Spain you need to be vaxxed, no testing option. You don't need a test if you're vaxxed. A Spaniard on holiday in Ireland tested positive, this meant he'd have to quarantine in Ireland but instead he booked a flight back to Spain and is free over there, he was also symptomatic.

It's pretty clear this isn't about controlling the spread, they want you to take the vaccine for whatever other reason and you don't need to be a conspiracy theorist to figure that out, it's logic 101.

SO now you've had it will you be going for any more boosters?

[The Wengerbabies]

How much air time should they give to every single fringe view?

Back to this.

Dr. Robert Malone has recently been banned from Twitter. He is credited with inventing mRNA vaccines, is his a fringe view that should be ignored?

[Letters]

If it’s not shared by the majority of his peers then yes.
He didn’t invent mRNA vaccines and is only credited by himself as having done so. No one person invented them. But he did perform an experiment which was a stepping stone towards them.

[Letters]

They’re so desperate to control us, aren’t they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59853621

[Mac76]

They’re so desperate to control us, aren’t they?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59853621

It's not fair, i demand troops on the streets now! :sulk:

[Letters]

No, but seriously. What’s the narrative here?
If they wanted to control us they had a perfect excuse to over Christmas.
Cases were through the roof - orders of magnitude higher than last year when Christmas was cancelled for millions. Some scientists were urging restrictions, fearing that Omicron would overwhelm the NHS and cause another wave of deaths.
The government did nothing more than ask people nicely to wear masks in certain situations.
Oh and there’s the Covid Pass thing. Which basically involves you saying you’ve tested negative. That pretty much seems to be it. It doesn’t even seem like you have to prove that, you just say you did a test and that it was negative.

If they are trying to control us they are bloody awful at it.

[Letters]

SO now you've had it will you be going for any more boosters?

I haven’t had the booster. I sort of planned to but the site crashed when I tried to book and I didn’t bother to try again. Now I’ve tested positive anyway. I don’t know if I’ll bother with it.
Although it depends on the requirements. If I need it to travel then I probably will as it would be the pragmatic thing to do. This variant does feel like the last hurrah for Covid. I reckon the worst of all this is over but that prediction may age like milk.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I hope this is it for the pandemic. I tested positive for it on Christmas Day. I’ve done a lot of sleeping and felt lethargic. The first few days, I had aches where I never knew you could have aches, but nothing really drastic.

I’m still testing positive, but if I can ride this out without getting an MS relapse, which is always my biggest fear when I get ill, I’ll be happy.

[Letters]

:hug:

I tested positive last Thursday, I haven’t done a test since.
Will do one tomorrow and hopefully that will be negative and it will on Wednesday too and I can go out again.

[dazthegooner]

:hug:
and I can go out again.
Oh god no... :pray: ;)

[Letters]

<_<

[dazthegooner]

:hug:

[Letters]

Tested positive again this morning :crying:

[GP]

rip in peace

[Letters]

I'll be wiv Jade Goody and teh angles

Letters :rose:

[Letters]

rip in peace

By the way, a friend said "LFT Test" to me the other day. What a blunder! Boy was he red faced!
It's like people who say "PIN Number". What does the N stand for, chum-p?

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.ibb.co/ZTxdP6W/r4lauak29l981.png

[The Wengerbabies]

Tested positive again this morning :crying:

Stop needlessly testing, you're part of the problem. How do you feel?

[Letters]

Stop needlessly testing, you're part of the problem. How do you feel?

I'm testing to see if I can go out :rolleyes:
If it makes you feel better, I'm not reporting the results.

And why are you comparing smoke particles with the virus?
The valid comparison is with the droplets which people exhale or sneeze/cough out which contain the virus, no?

[Letters]

(Oh, and I feel fine thanks. My guess is it's Omicron, or Covid Lite as I like to call it.)

[Letters]

Boris sticking with Plan B.
He's the worst authoritarian ever :sulk:

[Marc Overmars]

(Oh, and I feel fine thanks. My guess is it's Omicron, or Covid Lite as I like to call it.)

When did you have it the first time?

I got it at the start of November with mild symptoms and recovered.

Then attended a wedding at the end of the month and me and my group of friends felt rough as shit, a couple tested positive while the rest of us were negative. I had worse symptoms than when I had a positive test, horrible cough and sore throat yet my tests were negative.

Fuck knows how this works but I think I may have had it twice without knowing.

[Letters]

I’ve had a few coughs and colds during autumn, never anything much and I didn’t do any tests.
The week before Christmas MrsL started feeling quite rough. We didn’t think it was Covid but then her taste and smell went on Christmas Day so she did a test. We did 2 actually as neither of us had done one before. Both positive. I tested negative then and on the 27th.
Then last Thursday when she got her first negative test I tested positive :doh:
I’d had some symptoms the evening before, but really mild - very slight headache and sore throat but barely noticeable. Since then it’s been like a pretty mild cold but I tested positive again today :(

[Ollie the Optimist]

One thing i find interesting is that it seems the UK is a bit of an outlier in terms of providing free tests compared to many countries.

There are regular cries on social media that the tories wasted 37 billion on test & trace (ignoring the fact that is a budget not the actual spend) yet we can order 7 lateral flow tests per person per day. PCR tests are also free and we regularly carry out 1.5 million of these a day. When you include lateral flows, suspect that number is significantly higher. All for free (yes i know that taxes does not make them free, but we do not have to pay extra)

Yet many countries such as the US & Germany and others, charge for these, especially lateral flows. I think Germany sell 5 tests for 25 euros. This means you see on twitter many politicians saying germany has it right because htey spent less on test & trace however people have to pay for their tests and who is likely to do that just to test on the off chance you have the virus? At least here, because they are free, people are more likely to test before going out but I wouldn’t pay for it myself.

So i guess I’m wondering if those that regularly post on twitter that the government are evil bastards for spending 37 billion would be happy if they spent significantly less and made people pay for the tests like most other countries. I suspect not and suspect they would start arguing that evil tories want to kill people by refusing free tests.

I do believe when boris Johnson said we would have a world beating testing system, he was right. It was built from scratch at the start when we barely did 10k tests a day to now over 1.5 million a day excluding lateral flows. Germany at the start was hailed as the gold standard for testing, they have carried out approximately 100 million tests during covid. Uk has carried out over 400 million. Along with the vaccination program, this in my opinion is a genuine world beating system and the government deserves credit for it.

[Letters]

Got my first negative test today :trophy:
One more tomorrow and I'll be off clubbing with Wengerbabies and licking strangers :cool:


Oh and yes, the people complaining about all the tax money being spent on tests would be complaining if we had to pay for them, so... :shrug:

[Mac76]

Along with the vaccination program, this in my opinion is a genuine world beating system and the government deserves credit for it.

BS, they stumbled across anything they got right despite thier best efforts - hundreds if not thousands of poeple died in the first wave because of their dawdling, plus the lockdown went on longer than it would have if they'd acted more quickly, how many businesses went under because of that?

[Letters]

I think it's fair to criticise them for what they got wrong - and I agree with your assessment of what they got wrong. It cost a lot of lives and that shouldn't be forgotten.

But you have to balance that by giving some credit for what they've got right.

The annoying thing is had they just acted quicker at the start of the pandemic AND got all the things right around vaccines etc then we'd have done pretty well in all this. In 2020 we were "top" 5 in the world in terms of deaths per million. Now, largely because of the things they got right, we're about 30th. If only they hadn't buggered everything up at the start.

It's like last season. Yes, we did well from Boxing Day on. But things up to the previous Christmas were such a mess that overall it was all a bit mid-table when it could have been a lot better.

[The Wengerbabies]

Got my first negative test today :trophy:
One more tomorrow and I'll be off clubbing with Wengerbabies and licking strangers :cool:


But here's the illogical double standard, you've been able to go clubbing all along anyway, you have a vax cert, you don't need to test negative.

[The Wengerbabies]

One thing i find interesting is that it seems the UK is a bit of an outlier in terms of providing free tests compared to many countries.

There are regular cries on social media that the tories wasted 37 billion on test & trace (ignoring the fact that is a budget not the actual spend) yet we can order 7 lateral flow tests per person per day. PCR tests are also free and we regularly carry out 1.5 million of these a day. When you include lateral flows, suspect that number is significantly higher. All for free (yes i know that taxes does not make them free, but we do not have to pay extra)

Yet many countries such as the US & Germany and others, charge for these, especially lateral flows. I think Germany sell 5 tests for 25 euros. This means you see on twitter many politicians saying germany has it right because htey spent less on test & trace however people have to pay for their tests and who is likely to do that just to test on the off chance you have the virus? At least here, because they are free, people are more likely to test before going out but I wouldn’t pay for it myself.

So i guess I’m wondering if those that regularly post on twitter that the government are evil bastards for spending 37 billion would be happy if they spent significantly less and made people pay for the tests like most other countries. I suspect not and suspect they would start arguing that evil tories want to kill people by refusing free tests.

I do believe when boris Johnson said we would have a world beating testing system, he was right. It was built from scratch at the start when we barely did 10k tests a day to now over 1.5 million a day excluding lateral flows. Germany at the start was hailed as the gold standard for testing, they have carried out approximately 100 million tests during covid. Uk has carried out over 400 million. Along with the vaccination program, this in my opinion is a genuine world beating system and the government deserves credit for it.

Never done any of those stupid free tests, have had to pay extortionate amounts for travel testing though because NHS test can't be used for that, only government donor approved private companies.

I'm not happy about my tax money being wasted on that.

If people had been forced to pay all along every time maybe we wouldn't have ridiculous amounts of needless testing.

[Ollie the Optimist]

But here's the illogical double standard, you've been able to go clubbing all along anyway, you have a vax cert, you don't need to test negative.

He hasn’t been able to go clubbing all along because a positive test means a legal requirement to self isolate for the required time.

[Letters]

But here's the illogical double standard, you've been able to go clubbing all along anyway, you have a vax cert, you don't need to test negative.

Yes, but only because I didn't report the positive results. The whole system seems to be entirely predicated on people being honest.
If they are trying to control us then they're bloody rubbish at it.
:shrug:

[Xhaka Can’t]

But here's the illogical double standard, you've been able to go clubbing all along anyway, you have a vax cert, you don't need to test negative.
If you report it, the Vaccine passport becomes void - but yeah - it relies on honesty.

Agree with the crap you have to go through when travelling - holy mother of fuck it is simultaneously a mess and a shakedown. The government probably could have self funded wider testing by allowing existing NHS test centres to charge for travel related testing.

[The Wengerbabies]

If you report it, the Vaccine passport becomes void - but yeah - it relies on honesty.

Agree with the crap you have to go through when travelling - holy mother of fuck it is simultaneously a mess and a shakedown. The government probably could have self funded wider testing by allowing existing NHS test centres to charge for travel related testing.

The tests needed post-arrival are an absolute racket. The only check they make is that you paid for it, not whether you actually take the test.

[Letters]

My niece was telling me that all you have to do is say your test was negative.
So you can take a test, it can light up like a Christmas Tree and all you have to do is say it was negative and off you go. No one checks.
This is the oppressive, authoritarian regime we’re living under, is it? :wacko:
I think they’re doing it wrong.

[Letters]

Negative again :d

I'm going to party like it's 1998 #Double

[Niall_Quinn]

The NHS was the biggest trick ever pulled on the British people. It taught most to equate exorbitant expense to free of charge. If people were made pay for tests like they pay for most other things nobody would want them. But because the cost is extorted by other means it passes unnoticed. I guess they must think Boris is digging in his own pocket. I don't know what the transfer score is now, trillions globally and rising. Given up tracking and tracing that and have started to wonder if they won't stop until they have it all.

[Niall_Quinn]

My niece was telling me that all you have to do is say your test was negative.
So you can take a test, it can light up like a Christmas Tree and all you have to do is say it was negative and off you go. No one checks.
This is the oppressive, authoritarian regime we’re living under, is it? :wacko:
I think they’re doing it wrong.

You just demonstrated why they are doing it far more effectively than the romper stomper regimes that tried it in the past.

[Letters]

18 months ago you were saying they were priming us for the army on the streets and curfews.
Now you're saying they're too scared to impose any restrictions because people won't go along with it?
:shrug:

Isn't it more plausible that they're basing their decisions on the data rather than some nefarious masterplan?

[Niall_Quinn]

18 months ago you were saying they were priming us for the army on the streets and curfews.
Now you're saying they're too scared to impose any restrictions because people won't go along with it?
:shrug:

Isn't it more plausible that they're basing their decisions on the data rather than some nefarious masterplan?

If you find the "data" in any way plausible, then I suppose you could console yourself with that excuse. You already know how extensively all data has been manipulated since the start of this program, it has been openly admitted by those doing the manipulation. So there's no actual data to go on apart from the snippets of analysis that sometimes break cover an shed some light on the reality rather than the script - such as the findings from Italy, the US and (to a limited extent) the UK that at least tried to estimate to scope and effects of the manipulation, particularly in terms of the "with" vs "from" fraud. However, some people will continue to look at "data" being rolled out by those doing the manipulation and conclude it's just a happy coincidence the "data" justifies the accelerating (2 year long) "emergency" measures. Others twigged at the start, or once the real nature of the virus became obvious, and more are now gradually starting to understand what "data" and "science" actually means in relation to this program.

I've posted up all the bills that breezed through, I've spoken about the relationship between the state and the global corporations, but this self-evident reality doesn't seem to engage those who equate being "allowed" to go to a nightclub is a measure of liberty. Put another way, it has become impossible to discuss liberty with a rather large segment of the population that never understood what it is in the first place.

You live in a place where something is only happening once it is complete. It magically springs into existence, if you like. I live in a place where each brick laid upon the next builds reality. Either way we reach the same place, provided there is enough complacency to fuel the journey.

[The Wengerbabies]

Danish sudy: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.27.21268278v1

Vaccinated spread omicron more than unvaxxed, boosted spread more still...


Comparing households infected with the Omicron to Delta VOC, we found an 1.17 (95%-CI: 0.99-1.38) times higher SAR for unvaccinated, 2.61 times (95%-CI: 2.34-2.90) higher for fully vaccinated and 3.66 (95%-CI: 2.65-5.05) times higher for booster-vaccinated individuals

Not this science.

[Letters]

I'm very confused by that paper. The part you "accidentally" left out seems to contradict the part you quoted:


We found an increased transmission for unvaccinated individuals, and a reduced transmission for booster-vaccinated individuals, compared to fully vaccinated individuals. Comparing households infected with the Omicron to Delta VOC, we found an 1.17 (95%-CI: 0.99-1.38) times higher SAR for unvaccinated, 2.61 times (95%-CI: 2.34-2.90) higher for fully vaccinated and 3.66 (95%-CI: 2.65-5.05) times higher for booster-vaccinated individuals, demonstrating strong evidence of immune evasiveness of the Omicron VOC.

My emphasis. I'm obviously not understanding something properly.

[WMUG]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59902220

The army are here!

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm very confused by that paper. The part you "accidentally" left out seems to contradict the part you quoted:



My emphasis. I'm obviously not understanding something properly.

"Fully vaccinated" still refers to money shot 1 & 2. It doesn't include bonus earnings shot 3 yet. I think that comes in April.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59902220

The army are here!

For the time being. Presumably most of them will soon be isolating too. Then we could maybe send American contract workers in to help?

[Letters]

If you find the "data" in any way plausible

I do. And just to be clear what I mean, I'm talking about this data:
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/
Yes. I find that plausible.
Because at the times when they were saying cases were high I knew plenty of people who were testing positive, when cases were low I didn't.
Loads of people were testing positive over Christmas, me included - far more than those numbers show actually because they're only counting people who reported their results.
And I've related the conversation I had with an ICU doctor about how things went at his hospital last winter so yes, I can believe numbers were very high then in terms of hospitalisations and deaths.
We get updates from the boy's school which are a good proxy for cases.
I can't recall a time when cases were being reported as high and I didn't know anyone who tested positive.
So overall yes, I find the reported data plausible.

I think there's a sensible debate to be had about deaths and how they've been reported. "of" Covid vs "with" Covid. The government actually reduced their numbers in response to some criticism of that. But when you look at all cause mortality vs the average it seems clear to me that there was "a situation" which demanded a response.

Do you have any evidence that the numbers reported are wrong or being deliberately inflated other than your default distrust of authority?


You already know how extensively all data has been manipulated since the start of this program, it has been openly admitted by those doing the manipulation.

Can you elaborate on this? What findings from Italy and the US?
Why would they manipulate the numbers and then admit it?!


some people will continue to look at "data" being rolled out by those doing the manipulation and conclude it's just a happy coincidence the "data" justifies the accelerating (2 year long) "emergency" measures.
Accelerating? Really? Haven't the measures consistently followed the data? At times when hospitalisations and deaths were high they put in measures, at other times they were lifted.
There has been no clear direction of travel towards authoritarianism. At times they have been implemented measures which would have been unthinkable in normal times, but these aren't normal times. And all those measures have been temporary - almost all have now been lifted.
Again, there are sensible debates to be had about whether they did things at the right time, but accelerating emergency measures? You know that the only measure in place right now is you have to wear masks in certain situations (which isn't being enforced - for schools it is only a recommendation, not a mandate), and they ask for a Covid Pass for certain large events. To get one you have to say you took a test and it was negative. That's basically it, you don't even need to do the test, you just need to say you did and you're fine. The entire system seems to be based on people being honest. Some authoritarians they are.

And if you don't believe the data then...I'm honestly confused about your position here. Are they faking low data at times so they can remove restrictions? Why would they do that?
If they wanted to impose more restrictions this winter there has been plenty of excuse for them to do so, cases were through the roof. But they haven't.
Because, actually, they don't really want to. They have no interest in controlling every aspect of your life.


I've posted up all the bills that breezed through, I've spoken about the relationship between the state and the global corporations, but this self-evident reality doesn't seem to engage those who equate being "allowed" to go to a nightclub is a measure of liberty. Put another way, it has become impossible to discuss liberty with a rather large segment of the population that never understood what it is in the first place.
We've had this discussion. Liberty, as you define it, doesn't exist. I'm not even sure it should exist in the context of a society. There has to be some structure to that or the whole thing breaks down.
And I do believe that the government should be able to impose restrictions in extreme situations which warrant it. Asking people nicely isn't going to work.
But it's extremely rare for them to do that. As these things go, we are basically free in this country to do as we please most of the time.
The last couple of years have been a notable exception but even then most of the restrictions which have been placed on us are now removed. And even when we were in full lockdown you observed people going about their business, it's hardly North Korea or even China.

I do think you have valid concerns about some of the bills you have mentioned, although did you see the protests over Christmas against masks or vaccines or something? Those people were free to do that, are they all in prison now? I seriously doubt it. You may have ideological issues with a government, but if you're going to have one then I'd suggest our lot are better than most in terms of our freedoms.


You live in a place where something is only happening once it is complete.
No. I just want to see some evidence that it is happening. I see none.
There have been some unprecedented measures to deal with an unprecedented (in modern times) situation. But those measures have changed as the situation has.
You thought that the 10pm pub curfew was to soften us up for actual curfews, the army on the street in Birmingham delivering tests was to soften us up for the army being on the streets and checkpoints.
None of that happened and it isn't going to.
The reason you were wrong about that is your underlying assumptions about the government and their intent is wrong. They are incompetent, corrupt and self-serving to varying degrees. But they're not actually interested in controlling the minutiae of our lives.