Coronavirus Pandemic [Archive] - Page 28

Letters

19-01-2022, 10:57 AM

Any day now, those 4 bills will be repealed. Any day now, the 14 trillion will be handed back. And once that's done it'll almost be like covid never happened. Hurrah!

I've agreed the 4 bills are of potential concern, but I've also said I don't think they will actually make any difference to your day to day life, or mine.
Your objections are ideological, not practical.
As I said, these bills didn't stop a load of people protesting over Christmas. What happened to those people? Did they all get rounded up? Are they in prison? No, of course not.

And sure, some people have used this crisis to enrich themselves. I've never disputed that. Twas ever thus.

But you're shifting goalposts. You know the sorts of dystopian things you were predicting. None of them happened - certainly not here, and you were clearly talking about things going on in this country and how that would progress. The reality is restrictions have been imposed and removed as the data dictated. You can have a sensible debate about whether they did that in the right way and at the right times. But it's a stretch to think that any of it was a slide into a totalitarian or authoritarian regime. They were clearly responding to a situation and that response changed over time. Which is why, now numbers have dropped since Christmas and it's increasingly clear that Omicron is less serious, it looks like Boris is about to announce a further lifting of restrictions (which are very light touch right now anyway).

Xhaka Can’t

19-01-2022, 01:05 PM

Your post is conflating bills with law. When they become law, that is where the real danger is realised.

It will be a tool the government will apply when it suits them. There will be the façade that nothing material has changed. When people protest on issues the government supports or doesn’t care about, they’ll pass off with little or no application of the law. Then they’ll point out that people can protest.

When it is a protest that affects their interests or those who fund them, those protestors will face the full force of the law.

Letters

19-01-2022, 02:15 PM

When it is a protest that affects their interests or those who fund them, those protestors will face the full force of the law.
Well, maybe. I'm not convinced although I may be naïve.
Aren't all protests about things the government isn't doing or doesn't want to do? I don't believe they will be outlawed or cracked down upon.
There are certainly dangers here and potential for abuse. My gut feel is it won't make as much difference as some people think.

Niall_Quinn

19-01-2022, 02:16 PM

I've agreed the 4 bills are of potential concern, but I've also said I don't think they will actually make any difference to your day to day life, or mine.
Your objections are ideological, not practical.
As I said, these bills didn't stop a load of people protesting over Christmas. What happened to those people? Did they all get rounded up? Are they in prison? No, of course not.

And sure, some people have used this crisis to enrich themselves. I've never disputed that. Twas ever thus.

But you're shifting goalposts. You know the sorts of dystopian things you were predicting. None of them happened - certainly not here, and you were clearly talking about things going on in this country and how that would progress. The reality is restrictions have been imposed and removed as the data dictated. You can have a sensible debate about whether they did that in the right way and at the right times. But it's a stretch to think that any of it was a slide into a totalitarian or authoritarian regime. They were clearly responding to a situation and that response changed over time. Which is why, now numbers have dropped since Christmas and it's increasingly clear that Omicron is less serious, it looks like Boris is about to announce a further lifting of restrictions (which are very light touch right now anyway).

Why is it so important for you to perpetuate the lie? I specifically said, some people will not accept the shifting realities until they see Nazis stomping down their own street and banging on their doors. You know this. But, for some reason, you need to cling to the idea the very principles of the relationship between government and the governed have not been ripped to shreds over the past 2 years (more gradually over the past half century). Why is it so very important for you to deny this is happening? Are you afraid of what's occurring and compensating by pretending all is as it was before? Just because your own door hasn't been smashed in yet?

Every single act of authoritarianism that is waived past without complaint (or even applauded by some) is another brick to build the prison. It's not even the extreme examples we've seen all around the world and yes, most certainly in this country too. It's almost everything now. It's tax season, for example. When you sit down and actually think about taxation, look at the details, look at the costs and benefits and outcomes, it's genuinely shocking. It's absolutely absurd and shameful the people have allowed themselves to be chained like this. Yet most, who simply refuse to look, will point at a hospital and say it's worth it. Right before the hospital kicks them on to an 18 month waiting list in the hope they'll die in the meantime.

Simple, simple things that can't be avoided and yet are somehow avoided by so many. Obvious, day to day and certainly practical things. Like trying to get an appointment with a doctor or a dentist. Walking into a supermarket with the pennies that haven't been snatched to buy a ton of packaging containing ever reducing portions, all at inflated prices. Looking at the petrol prices which are mostly tax these days. Look all around you, everywhere? Nothing has affected you? You can't see it all heading in one direction?

What are you saving up for? A grand economic boom and a parade to celebrate liberty restored?

It's not coming. You can't see the troops march down your street (even though they are there in every new proposal, every new bill that flies unscrutinised, every disgraceful and despicable law, every human rights abuse, every tip of the unbalanced scales of injustice, every act of overt censorship, every witch hunt that corners and pulps a dissenter), but with enough complacency they won't even need to stomp because people will volunteer to construct the prison for themselves.

The next cash and power grab will dwarf all the others. 2001, 2008, 2020 - chicken feed compared to what comes next. Because we have a planet to save - right? Strange you can't see the state marching down your street and into your home but you can see the floods and the fires and the hurricanes and ice melt, though the pensioners freezing in their homes and the people eating bugs are a little blurry.

Niall_Quinn

19-01-2022, 02:28 PM

Well, maybe. I'm not convinced although I may be naïve.
Aren't all protests about things the government isn't doing or doesn't want to do? I don't believe they will be outlawed or cracked down upon.
There are certainly dangers here and potential for abuse. My gut feel is it won't make as much difference as some people think.

14 different propaganda and psychological warfare departments/ units were deployed to manage the messaging and advise on strategy during the pandemic. You should think about that. We could have honest and transparent leadership and open debate, or covert operatives, misinformation, disinformation and censorship. When did we ever get the former? Hence the latter. Not all protests are alike. Some are the blind shouting at the ignorant being led by the profiteer. The smaller, quieter, sometimes shamefully absent protests - like a protest against 33K kids dying a day for lack of a drink of water - are likely the ones refused a license.

Globalgunner

19-01-2022, 05:23 PM

You spend too much energy trying to rescue a lost ship. Let it sink. It wants to anyways.

Letters

19-01-2022, 10:38 PM

Why is it so important for you to perpetuate the lie?
What lie? You DID make some quite dystopian predictions. Not only did those not come true, the exact opposite has happened.
Instead of the increasing restrictions you predicted, most if not all have now been removed.

I specifically said, some people will not accept the shifting realities until they see Nazis stomping down their own street and banging on their doors. You know this.
I do. You said that some time after you made those predictions but yes, you did say that and I responded.
My response was that I want to some evidence they're coming and I don't see any. If you're telling me there's a storm coming then show me there's a cloud in the sky. You could argue that the Covid restrictions were big black clouds, but they've mostly cleared up now. In fact just tonight Boris has announced that the Plan B restrictions will be removed next week - mandatory face coverings in public places and Covid passports are both being dropped.

But, for some reason, you need to cling to the idea the very principles of the relationship between government and the governed have not been ripped to shreds over the past 2 years (more gradually over the past half century). Why is it so very important for you to deny this is happening?
Explain what you mean by this. How has the relationship changed? If anything I'd say the public and the media have become significantly less deferential to the government over the last 60 years. I've seen clips of old interviews with politicians which were very respectful and deferential, there's far more holding them to account now. What's happened over the last 2 years is that the government have exercised powers in an unprecedented way - or certainly since the War. Those powers have always existed but in normal times our government doesn't exercise them. But the last 2 years has been anything but normal.

Are you afraid of what's occurring and compensating by pretending all is as it was before? Just because your own door hasn't been smashed in yet?
Whose door has been smashed in? What do you think has actually changed in the relationship between government and governed.

Every single act of authoritarianism that is waived past without complaint (or even applauded by some) is another brick to build the prison.
That's only true if there is a clear direction of travel towards authoritarianism. But there isn't. Restrictions have been imposed and removed as the situation has changed.

You have ideological issues with taxation, but it's hardly a new thing. I don't have a problem with the principle of it, although I would agree that our tax money is not spent in an optimal way. And I believe that the NHS is, overall, a good thing. But it's in a mess due to underfunding and it being admin and management heavy. I don't have an issue with the principle of us being taxed and in return getting infrastructure and services. I don't know how else a modern complex society could function.

Look all around you, everywhere? Nothing has affected you?
Not really. I mean, obviously the pandemic restrictions affected me, they affected everyone. But I always believed that they were a temporary response to an extreme situation. As I said we can certainly debate whether they were the right response, but I never saw it as a slide into an authoritarian dystopia. And given that the light touch restrictions still in place are being removed next week, I reckon I got that one right.

You can't see it all heading in one direction?

Not really. I'm not clear what you're getting at here. The rest of your post seems to be more predictions about the future. With respect, your record there isn't great. And I'm not having a go at you about that, none of us know what will happen. But you seem to have a strange ability to predict things, see the opposite of your predictions happen and maintain an unshakeable confidence in your abilities to know what's what.

The reason you got things wrong in that post about the army and curfews is that you have an underlying assumption that "they" are out to get us. But they aren't. And no, that doesn't mean they're bending over backwards to help us, those aren't the only two possibilities. There's a sensible middle ground where sure, the government is corrupt, incompetent and self-serving but not actually trying to control us to the degree you suppose. I think the truth lies in that middle ground. If they wanted to exert more control then they had the perfect excuse to over the last month with case numbers through the roof. But they didn't because they have no interest in doing so unless they really feel it's wanted in exceptional circumstances. That was true a year ago with hospitals creaking and deaths way above average. It isn't true now.

You think I'm cheering them on as they build a prison. I think you're railing against being in prison while the door is wide open.

Niall_Quinn

20-01-2022, 01:31 AM

The deceit in that post is almost beyond belief. It's like a response to something entirely different to what was originally posted. And it shows a level of denial that is unexpected, even for you. You are absolutely incapable of looking, or even thinking, beyond the message. Everything you have said above is the stock response to issues you yourself replaced to avoid talking about the issues I actually raised. It's psychotic.

I think, in the end, a fairly large segment of the population has to be written off.

Niall_Quinn

20-01-2022, 01:32 AM

You spend too much energy trying to rescue a lost ship. Let it sink. It wants to anyways.

The joke here is I'm trying not to leave a Christian [sic] behind. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Niall_Quinn

20-01-2022, 01:55 AM

ONS ("The Data") forced to confirm the scam so a handful of others could share in a 14 trillion dollar transfer of wealth. This is the inevitable conclusion whether people wet the bed over it or just accept what has become increasingly obvious. And tens of thousands more will die from the fallout.

The earlier FOI:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/deathsfromcovid19withnootherunderlyingcauses?s=09

Will get the latest one when available. Trials and executions need to commence now. There are international laws that have long covered these types of crimes.

EDIT: Around 17K deaths FROM covid to date. In line with findings from Italy and the US. Average age of covid casualties - higher than the national life expectancy (same as in Ireland, probably same as most nations). What an outrageous scam.

Letters

20-01-2022, 10:33 AM

The deceit in that post is almost beyond belief.
What deceit? Come on, don't just state stuff like that - if you're going to accuse me of deceit then spell it out. Where have I deceived you or anyone else?
We've had this conversation. If you continue to insist on thinking the worst of me then we cannot have a sensible conversation.
After Gary stepped in I have toned it down, you have too but it's a shame you continue to accuse me of deceit which implies I am actively trying to mislead people.

It's like a response to something entirely different to what was originally posted.
Honestly, that's kinda how I feel about your posts.
But OK, if I've misunderstood you then explain how. I've asked a couple of times above for you to clarify things you've said. For example, you said:
"[I'm denying that] the very principles of the relationship between government and the governed have not been ripped to shreds over the past 2 years"
Have they? Explain how.

And it shows a level of denial that is unexpected, even for you.
What am I denying?

You are absolutely incapable of looking, or even thinking, beyond the message.
I'd suggest you are incapable of introspection. At the start of all this you were on board with the restrictions but then you started falling down conspiracy theory rabbit holes, fuelled by your slight paranoia that "they" are out to get you.
You claimed that the 10pm closing time for pubs was to soften us up for curfews. You claimed that the army on the streets in Birmingham (to deliver tests, if I recall correctly) was to soften us up for the army on the streets.
You predicted curfews and checkpoints, you predicted the tests would become mandatory.
None of that happened.

There was the Covid Pass, but even then I got one of those while I was testing positive, I just didn't report the positive test. Not out of any desire to evade the law, I just didn't bother to. The whole Covid Pass thing seemed to be based entirely on people 'fessing up. All you had to do is say you had a negative test - note, just say you did, you didn't need to provide any evidence - and that was basically good enough. And when I did get to the event which required a Covid Pass the bloke took a cursory look and that was it, anyone could have taken a screenshot of theirs and sent it to me and I'd have been waved through. And from next week the Covid Pass is being rolled back anyway.
This is the authoritarian regime I'm supposed to be worried about, is it? Come on, dude.
Elsewhere you said:

You can point at the law that quite openly decrees protests of more than 2 people are illegal. Or visiting your elderly relative in a care home is prohibited. Or the state mandating who may or may not enter your own private home, etc, etc. Literally in your face but some people will say, no, no, no, it's all a mistake

I wouldn't say "no, no, no". I'd say "yes, but". And the but is - those were temporary restrictions designed to deal with a temporary and extraordinary situation.
As I keep saying, you can debate whether the restrictions were the right ones at the right times, but you can't sensibly continue to claim that they were part of a permanent slide into authoritarianism.
All those restrictions have now been lifted.

In your other post you're basically making the point that Covid is only dangerous for old and/or ill people. Well...yeah. But that's a lot of people.
So what should the response have been? "Fuck 'em?"
I believe elsewhere you've said that the response should have been shield the vulnerable, the rest of us get on with it. I sort of agree in principle, but in practice in a complicated interconnected society I'd suggest that's not easy to do.

Everything you have said above is the stock response to issues you yourself replaced to avoid talking about the issues I actually raised. It's psychotic.
What have I avoided talking about?

Niall_Quinn

20-01-2022, 12:05 PM

What did you avoid? Well, come on, you are the one avoiding it so why ask me?

But, okay. The discussion was about the relationship between the government and the governed and the bills and laws that radically alter that relationship. And the 14 trillion dollars.

You turned it into another round about the current state of restrictions. Are you allowed or not allowed, etc? When the restrictions are in place you say - "The Data".

When the restrictions are lifted you say - Not very good authoritarians :haha:

And that's ALL you say. Any actual science, legal discourse, precedent, historical foundation, anything at all that doesn't impact immediate events within the square yard you occupy at any given time is of zero consideration. And yesterday never happened, only today exists and tomorrow never comes. A carefree way to live, for sure, but then you do unconscionable things like vote or have an opinion when neither act can be based on anything tangible given your truncated field of view.

So, they said you are ALLOWED to do shit now? And I say they never had the moral or lawful privilege to say such things in the first place. That's what you are avoiding and voiding. The very principles behind law, human rights, government and representation. But you have the Good Morning Britain version of things adequately covered, I guess.

Niall_Quinn

21-01-2022, 12:03 AM

So anyway. The disease followed the well understood, already planned for course that virtually every other disease has followed. All the protocols, all the planning, all the established and practised science was sufficient. All the stuff that transferred 14 billion dollars to the ultra rich and breezed through new draconian powers for tinpot dictators was... bullshit. Unscientific. Ruined a lot of people. Killed a lot of people. Will kill more people in the coming years. And drove a wedge through the nation.

Remind me why we ned the "leaders" and "experts" again.

Now all that remains is to find out just how dangerous these vaccines are. Genuinely, I hope they are harmless. But, given the track records of companies like Pfizer and horrific demons like Fauci and Gates, I have concerns. Not personal concerns, because obviously I didn't take that shit.

Niall_Quinn

21-01-2022, 12:07 AM

I meant TRILLION dollars.

It's so huge you can't get your head around it. It's so beyond belief I guess a lot of people just tune it out.

Niall_Quinn

21-01-2022, 12:08 AM

On to global warming guys! Let's do it all again.

Niall_Quinn

21-01-2022, 02:21 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UHvwWWcjYw

Suggest you go all the way back and watch this guy from the start. His transformation from a puppet of society to a shocked and aware individual is a little bit sad, but them's the price you pay for sleeping through your life.

Some people will never admit they were duped. They don't have the spine for it. But this guy finally sees.

What about you? Has a different bell woken you up yet?

Letters

21-01-2022, 09:26 AM

What did you avoid? Well, come on, you are the one avoiding it so why ask me?
I'm not intentionally avoiding anything. So I needed you to clarify what you meant

But, okay. The discussion was about the relationship between the government and the governed and the bills and laws that radically alter that relationship. And the 14 trillion dollars.
I'm pretty sure I've dealt with all of that. But in order:
I don't think the relationship has changed - I asked you to clarify that, how has it changed?
I've acknowledged that there are concerns in the bills and laws but I actually don't think they'll make as much difference as you suppose - I could be wrong about that, we will see.
I've also acknowledged that yes, of course certain people have used this situation to enrich themselves. That doesn't mean the situation was engineered.

You turned it into another round about the current state of restrictions. Are you allowed or not allowed, etc?
When the restrictions are in place you say - "The Data".
When the restrictions are lifted you say - Not very good authoritarians

Well that's certainly not all I said. But yes. I believe this is a situation which required a response. The restrictions were that response and those restrictions have consistently followed the data.
But it wasn't a slide into an authoritarian regime which you claimed it would be with your dystopian predictions.
Those demonstrably haven't come true. Why do you never acknowledge you got that wrong?
I also happen to think the government made a lot of mistakes in their response by the way, but that's a separate discussion.

Any actual science, legal discourse, precedent, historical foundation, anything at all that doesn't impact immediate events within the square yard you occupy at any given time is of zero consideration.
The problem I have with the first part of that is that your definition of "actual science" tends to be "stuff you agree with". When I've posted science stuff which doesn't you label it propaganda :shrug:
The irony being that you follow some YouTube channels which are basically pure propaganda, telling people what they want to hear for the likes and subscribes.
I'm happy to admit my history is poor so there may be some context I'm missing. But I don't believe anything has fundamentally or permanently changed.
There was a situation, the government took unprecedented steps to deal with it but those steps were temporary. People who said that it was part of a slide into a totalitarian regime were demonstrably wrong.
You want to go down the pub - something you said was under attack - well what's stopping you? They're all open. There's no early closing time now.

So, they said you are ALLOWED to do shit now? And I say they never had the moral or lawful privilege to say such things in the first place. That's what you are avoiding and voiding. The very principles behind law, human rights, government and representation.
OK. Well, you're wrong. They are the government, they are our elected representatives and that does give them the privilege to make the laws. Laws, by definition, tell us what we are allowed or not allowed to do.
You might disagree with that whole principle, but that's the deal in this country.
Our government aren't, in general, interested in controlling the minutiae of our lives. So it's pretty much unprecedented for there to be laws about whether we can see friends or go to the pub and so on.
But it's been a pretty much unprecedented situation.
We've talked about the War before - the government made laws which said people couldn't open their curtains in the evening with the lights on. They made laws about how much stuff people could buy. Was that the start of a totalitarian regime? No, they were temporary restrictions on people's lives which were designed to deal with a situation. When the situation changed the restrictions were rolled back. Exactly the same thing has happened over the last couple of years. You may disagree with the principle of a government who has the power to make such laws but that's what we have in this country and that isn't new.

So sure, the government may have used the opportunity to pass some laws when no-one was looking - as I've said though, I don't believe those will make as much difference as you think.
And sure, certain people will always use a situation like this to enrich themselves.
But I don't believe anything has actually changed about the relationship between the government and the governed. They have the power to oppress and control us if they really want to, they always have had that power. It just happens that they don't want to.

Letters

21-01-2022, 11:13 AM

Some people will never admit they were duped. They don't have the spine for it. But this guy finally sees.
Why do you think this stat about people who only die from Covid is relevant?
The death rate in developed nations - which have an older and therefore iller population - is a lot higher than in less developed nations.
It feels like a bit of a red herring or straw man. I don't think many people think that Covid is dangerous for young and healthy people.
But there are LOT of people in the UK who aren't young or aren't healthy.
So it was still potentially dangerous to a significant percentage of the population and thus required a response.
But I agree the response was all wrong and will cause a lot of extra deaths because of missed diagnoses and treatments.

Niall_Quinn

21-01-2022, 11:35 AM

Why do I think honest and scientific measurement of medical data on which peoples lives rely and billions of taxpayer money is spent is important? Maybe it's not. We do have "The Science" now and Ferguson's armageddon algorithms.

All that misreported bullshit in the media - or "The Data" as you call it. Follow "The Data", follow "The Science", follow the "experts" who have shares in Pfizer.

Like I said, didn't take a lot to pull the wool.

Letters

21-01-2022, 01:19 PM

Why do I think honest and scientific measurement of medical data on which peoples lives rely and billions of taxpayer money is spent is important?
Dude, come on!
You accuse me of avoiding issues, you accuse me of misrepresenting what you say and then you come up with a response like this?
How about dealing with what I actually said.

The idea that Covid is not dangerous to young, healthy people is not controversial. And sure, there have been some hysterical "hide under your beds" responses to it in the media which I agree are unhelpful.
BUT, there is a significant percentage of the population who are not young and/or healthy. Which means I believe this is a situation which demanded a response.
I don't think that shutting down the country for a year was the correct response, for the record. If that's your - and that YouTube dude* bloke's point then fine.
*who I have been following a bit here and there, seems like he's not a nutter.

Niall_Quinn

21-01-2022, 07:52 PM

Dude, come on!
You accuse me of avoiding issues, you accuse me of misrepresenting what you say and then you come up with a response like this?
How about dealing with what I actually said.

The idea that Covid is not dangerous to young, healthy people is not controversial. And sure, there have been some hysterical "hide under your beds" responses to it in the media which I agree are unhelpful.
BUT, there is a significant percentage of the population who are not young and/or healthy. Which means I believe this is a situation which demanded a response.
I don't think that shutting down the country for a year was the correct response, for the record. If that's your - and that YouTube dude* bloke's point then fine.
*who I have been following a bit here and there, seems like he's not a nutter.

You've repeated what you have repeated so many times before. I've dealt with it many times before. How many times will suit you? The narrative is falling to pieces in front of your eyes. But you claim it's because the state has been following data (that is being discredited as we speak by the very same organisations that blasted it out 24/7) and it's perfectly reasonable restrictions are being lifted (not that we were talking about restrictions, but whatever). It's just another one of those wild coincidences that Boris the libertarian has leaped into action at this particular moment. So many coincidences. A few people got rich. Happens. Again. And again. And again. It's the constancy of coincidence, that makes it so commonplace. Really. There's nothing to see.

So yeah, I saw that post from you on the other 500 occasions. As I said, gear up for the next one and get your talking points and apologies in a row.

Niall_Quinn

24-01-2022, 12:26 AM

So Covid is another flu, except slightly less dangerous to younger people. Makes you wonder about the panic. If the panic had never occurred then all those new laws could never have been passed without scrutiny and 14 trillion dollars couldn't have been stolen from working people and handed to billionaires. Ah well. Lesson learned. No way we'll fall for the global warming scam - right? I mean, once bitten - or if you think about all the other shit, 999 time bitten. But 1,000 is our absolute limit. No cunt is stupid enough to be fooled a thousand times.

Is he?

Letters

24-01-2022, 10:22 AM

You've repeated what you have repeated so many times before. I've dealt with it many times before. How many times will suit you?
I don't know what you're talking about. Which part of my post do you actually disagree with?

The narrative is falling to pieces in front of your eyes.
What narrative? That Covid is deadly for everyone and we all need to hide under our beds? That's a straw man. No-one who has looked at the data believes that.
As I said, there may have been some hysterical over-reactions. But the push back against that is now that this was just a sniffle and no action was necessary.
Why is everything so binary with you? There's a huge middle ground between "we needed to lock everything down for a year" and "it was just a sniffle".
You seem to be claiming the latter, but you are using meaningless data to justify it.
Not many people died just from Covid. OK, so what? There's a significant percentage of the population who are elderly and/or have comorbidities and are thus at risk. Should we have just thought "sod 'em, they shouldn't be so old or ill!". Should we have tried to just protect them and let the rest of us get on with it? That's an approach I think makes sense in principle, but in practice in a complicated interconnected society it's not simple to do that.

But you claim it's because the state has been following data (that is being discredited as we speak by the very same organisations that blasted it out 24/7) and it's perfectly reasonable restrictions are being lifted (not that we were talking about restrictions, but whatever).
They have clearly been following the data. If you look at the data and when restrictions have been imposed and relaxed then the correlation is clear.
That doesn't mean I think they've got things right. Shutting down the country for a year was an overreaction which will cause more harm than it did good.
But I do think some response was required.

It's just another one of those wild coincidences that Boris the libertarian has leaped into action at this particular moment.
Of course it isn't. He's finally under some real pressure, it looks like there might actually be some consequences for him this time (although gut feeling is he's going to get away with it. Again). So sure, the timing of this announcement is suspicious. But the point you are repeatedly failing to acknowledge is that the restrictions have come and gone as the situation has changed. Your claim was that this was a slide into totalitarianism - checkpoints, curfews, the army on the streets. That didn't happen. It was never going to happen. Because our government aren't interested in controlling or oppressing us in the way you suppose - that's the underlying assumption which you are wrong about and that's what led you to the wrong conclusions.

So many coincidences. A few people got rich. Happens. Again. And again. And again. It's the constancy of coincidence, that makes it so commonplace. Really. There's nothing to see.
You've said this a load of times and every time I've responded the same way so I guess I'll do so again. No, of course it's not a coincidence. Of course any situation like this will be used by certain people to enrich themselves.
Who are you arguing against here?

Niall_Quinn

24-01-2022, 03:45 PM

According to the "meaningless" data (that has been sanctified and made holy) the average age of people dying from covid was 81.5 yrs, beyond the average life expectancy.

Letters

24-01-2022, 08:44 PM

It’s not the data you look at when considering whether Covid demanded a response
When such a large percentage of the population are at risk because of age or the infamous “underlying health conditions” that needs to be considered.
It’s not just about deaths either, I’ve related the conversation I had with an ICU doctor. The people in his ward last winter weren’t all elderly but they were putting pressure on his ward that he’d never seen before. That has an effect.

As I’ve said, I think the response was all wrong, but I think there needed to be one.

Niall_Quinn

24-01-2022, 11:23 PM

God almighty. The endless drone about a single ICU doctor. On the one hand you talk data (apart from the bits you need to be "meaningless"), on the other it's anecdotal. The data (even the official stuff) confirms the death rate in people under 64 with no other conditions is miniscule. This became known quite rapidly as real doctors from Italy started speaking out. They told us those at risk were the elderly, especially those already in poor health. We knew that at a very early stage of the game.

So governments all around the world threw sick people into care homes, culled the elderly and then forced mandates and drugs from criminal organisations on the healthy. That's not just the "wrong" response, it's criminal negligence at best and premeditated at worst. $1,000 per second. That's the profit being reaped by the drug pushers, according to one report today. Another "unfortunate" mistake. The doctors at Oxford wanted to give the vaccine away, then Billy Gates swept in and locked it all down, set up the revenues streams and then restricted access to the wealthy economies. These aren't minor mistakes and the consequences are enormous, the ones we can guess at and the ones yet to materialise.

The CDC then told us the actual death rate in the States followed a similar pattern, and more recently confirmed that natural immunity is at least as effective (if not better) than the experimental drugs.

Meanwhile all the fucking nurses were dancing on TikTok, the NHS was barring the door to cancer patients and the BBC was celebrating a 150K death toll as it explained how deadly the mild cold Omicron is. FFS! This is so bad it had to be by design.

At the very least, if we go with your incompetence theory, everyone involved should be sacked (because they are a clear and present danger to the rest of us) and prosecuted, so we can be sure this was just a series of mistakes and not deliberate. Or would even that be too much? Should they all walk free, bank their immense profits and then take the wheel again to drive us to the next emergency?

This is absolutely ridiculous. How has it come to the point where so many people can look at this devastating shambles and think a stiffly worded letter of complaint or a different tick in a mock election is the best way forward? I guess these are the same people who think the world's about to flood and the only think that can stop it is to transfer more wealth to the 0.1%

Letters

25-01-2022, 09:29 AM

On the one hand you talk data (apart from the bits you need to be "meaningless"), on the other it's anecdotal.
It's both.
Overall, data wins. Obviously. Although you have to interpret it correctly as it can be misinterpreted to suit certain agendas.
But you asked previously if I found the data plausible. I said yes and explained why - part of the why is the anecdotal stuff. The anecdotal evidence from people I know makes the data I see plausible.
And fine, I retract the comment about the data being meaningless - it does mean something, it means that Covid isn't going to kill you on its own unless you're very old and frail. But that's not the only thing I would be looking at if I was in charge of formulating a response to Covid, or assessing whether any response was required.

They told us those at risk were the elderly, especially those already in poor health. We knew that at a very early stage of the game.
Right. This has never been in dispute. Although younger people in poor health are at risk too. A friend's wife - I don't know her age, early 50's I think - was in hospital for some time with Covid last year because she has the infamous "underlying health conditions". Fine, she didn't die, but it knocked her sideways. I bumped into a mate on Saturday. Think he's mid-fifties. He told me Covid knocked him out for a couple of months last year. I don't think he's in particularly poor health. The data on hospitalisations and excess deaths last winter and anecdotal evidence makes me think this was something which required a response. But I don't think it needed locking down the entire country for a year.

At the very least, if we go with your incompetence theory, everyone involved should be sacked (because they are a clear and present danger to the rest of us) and prosecuted, so we can be sure this was just a series of mistakes and not deliberate. Or would even that be too much? Should they all walk free, bank their immense profits and then take the wheel again to drive us to the next emergency?
I don't particularly disagree with that - or the paragraphs I haven't quoted.

This is absolutely ridiculous. How has it come to the point where so many people can look at this devastating shambles and think a stiffly worded letter of complaint or a different tick in a mock election is the best way forward? I guess these are the same people who think the world's about to flood and the only think that can stop it is to transfer more wealth to the 0.1%

Again, I don't particularly disagree but what do you think we can actually do about this?
Shelves of shelves of books will be written about all this. It will be interesting to see, when the smoke has cleared, what historians make of all this.

My main issue with you during all this was the thought that this situation was being used as an excuse to control us.
I've never seen it that way, the response has varied as the situation has. Right now it's pretty much back to business as usual - they had plenty of excuse to lock us down again with the case numbers if they really wanted to. It's lamentable how poor the response has been, but that's what you get when you elect an incompetent person because he has funny hair :shrug: :(

Niall_Quinn

25-01-2022, 11:48 AM

You can't really believe this is about Boris Johnson and the Tories. Not really. You're just saying that to try to annoy me. The other lot wanted to go full Gestapo. So I'd say if you are looking for a political (or theatrical) solution your choice is the frying pan or the fire.

If control isn't the aim then why do we always end up with more restrictions and less wealth each time one of these euphemisms hits? When coincidence can be guaranteed, when is it time to call it design? Chart the path from September 2001 through to today, stopping at each "emergency" and tell me who benefited, who paid and what our glorious leaders did to rectify and fortify our societies against repeat events.

911 (the one where a man in a cave solved a loss making property problem in New York), the war against the intangible. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and almost (averted by a man with funny hair) Iran. Where are they now? We know mistakes were made in Afghanistan and it was expensive and British lives were lost and possibly a few foreigners died too. British Aerospace, John Major, Tony Blair, reluctantly cleaned up (and I don't men the mess). Osama was caught and thrown overboard before anyone could grab a camera. Taliban opened scene 1, Taliban took the final curtain. Lessons learned (so the claim goes). Will never happen again, unless our vital interests in (gets map) - Ukraine! - are threatened.

What did the BBC have to say about all this?

The financial crash (the one where big finance got so rich we had to blame black people who wanted a house). Too big to fail, even though they failed spectacularly because they were too big and out of control. Banks are now bigger and more out of control than ever and precisely zero steps were taken to ensure an entire nation can never be held to ransom again. All played out in plain view. Everyone knows who stole the wealth of nations. Everyone knows who got the bill. Solution? Invite a new pig in lipstick play lead. Now the global economy resembles the world's largest dam holding back the extinction event tidal wave of printed debt that will be paid to mindlessly irresponsible criminals by our kids, their kids and every kid to come until we stop grovelling.

What did the BBC have to say about all this?

The pandemic (the one where western leaders mysteriously caught the same urge to murder old people). We're still in this one. I wonder. Who will benefit? Who will pay. What steps will be taken to... yeah, it'll be the same. Except this particular robbery has come with a twist - they're not just boosting our wallets this time. It's big pharma's stint at the trough and they are giving the banksters, Boeing and Raytheon a run for their money. The NHS here, a few thousand expensive old crocks there (probably Brexit voters anyway), small businesses (don't panic, no major corporations were harmed during the production), suicided kids, an anticipated drop in life expectancy to close the gap with that lamentably low retirement age. But nothing major. It's all good, from the only perspective that counts.

What did the BBC have to say about all this?

Not sure if the cyber pandemic is going to be a major production or mood music for the interlude. But it'll solve the problem of the impossibly unbalanced books. Just burn the books. Genius. And a nice palate cleanser for the big one...

Global warming (the one where non-melting ice and the unsinkable Maldives formalised the tried and tested). You think government is a a problem now? Wait until you experience it going global.

And what does the trustworthy David Attenborough have to say about this?

Does it really take so many experts to tell us what we already know? Even if we can't admit it to ourselves? There can't possibly be another way, because the experts told us so.

Letters

26-01-2022, 05:22 PM

You can't really believe this is about Boris Johnson and the Tories. Not really. You're just saying that to try to annoy me.
Well, I'm not. If the response to this pandemic hasn't been defined by Boris et al then who has it been? They're the government.
Are you suggesting that were Labour in power the response would have been exactly the same? I don't see how that can be true given that the "other lot" as you call them have been pretty clear that they'd have done things differently as you noted yourself.
The other lot wanted more decisive action before last Christmas. They were right. Boris's "do nothing and hope it all goes away" approach worked out horribly. He went double or quits this year and seems to be getting away with it, partly because Omicron seems to be much milder, partly because we have collectively built up immunity (you can debate whether that's because of natural immunity or the vaccine, I'd suggest it's a combination of the two).

If control isn't the aim then why do we always end up with more restrictions and less wealth each time one of these euphemisms hits?
I'm interested in the "more restrictions" bit. The last Covid restrictions are being lifted tomorrow. There may be some lingering stuff but I think it's pretty much back to business as usual, isn't it? We haven't slid into the dystopian regime you imagined. What freedoms did we have 5 years ago - or 10 or 50 or however long you want to go back - that we don't have now?

You object to the principle of a government that can make a law which says you can't see your family. Well OK. But that isn't some new thing, we've always had a government that can make laws. As we've discussed, they made some laws during the War which in normal times would have seemed ludicrous and draconian. But those weren't normal times and neither have the last couple of years. The War time laws weren't permanent, neither have these been.

You object to the principle of tax. Well OK, but that's not a new thing. And less wealth, really? The tax burden will admittedly be high over the next few years to pay for the effects of the pandemic. But I'd note that a fair amount of that money was spent on stuff like the furlough scheme, millions would be worse off had they not done that. And overall aren't people better off now than they were at many points in the past? There's certainly a bigger divide between the very richest and the rest than in the past, but I don't think you get the extremes of poverty you had at some points in the past. But years of Tory rule has admittedly pushed more people towards poverty - that was already true pre-pandemic, and I don't think things were much better under Labour.

Overall, I don't think we're any less free than we have been in the past. Wealth I'm less sure about but I think in general life is more comfortable for most people than it has been at many points in history.

Niall_Quinn

26-01-2022, 09:52 PM

Not even a glimpse beyond the approved BBC version of events is permitted. At least a few peers are still interested in stuff that's apparently not happening, like the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, for example. But not you. Kids won't have to wear masks in school (a crime in itself), so that means (by some reasoning I can't possibly guess at) the raft of bills and legislation sneaked or sneaking into law isn't worth a mention. Every time a taboo reality is raised it's immediately filtered out. The repetitive and predictable nature of these relentless abuses is also carefully ignored. These realities don't fit into the message of (the now less cherished) data driving a hapless (but always innocent) stumble from one cock-up to the next. It doesn't matter how many times it occurs, it's always an accident. Obviously I don't find this position in any way credible and it makes me wonder how anyone could be so gullible to give it the time of day.

But the shutters are down and reality can't find a chink.

Niall_Quinn

26-01-2022, 10:19 PM

Just one of the (following "the data", or "while you weren't looking") measures the peers kicked back.

Against Government proposals to expand stop and search powers in relation to protest. It expands the types of offences that allow a police officer to stop and search a person or vehicle. The amendment would have created a new suspicionless stop and search power* which would allow a police officer to get authorisation applying to a particular place at a particular time to stop and search people or vehicles without suspicion if they believe a protest-related offence may be committed in that area. If a person refuses or obstructs being searched, they could face 51 weeks imprisonment or a fine or both.

Link provided (but don't associate me with "Friends" of the Earth:
https://friendsoftheearth.uk/latest/mps-urged-uphold-changes-draconian-police-bill

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2839

Keep an eye on it if you genuinely want to know if the restrictions have been lifted. This abomination is knocking on the door or Royal Assent. There's no chance to stop it now, but maybe some of the elements that make Stalin look like Santa Claus can be killed.

* This fundamentally, at the very core, changes the relationship between the agents of the state (the Police) and the governed (The shackled individual human being). The ONLY thing that protects you from the increasing number of bent and power crazed coppers is the last, fragile link to the common law. Couple this incomprehensible outrage with the suggestion the government should have constitutional powers to override the courts and, unless you have zero appreciation for history, every alarm bell in your head should be ringing. If not then you are probably dead already, so no worries.

Niall_Quinn

26-01-2022, 10:29 PM

There's a lot of reality going on outside the confines of the BBC:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=police+crime+sentencing+court s+bill+uk&sp=CAI%253D

Can anyone name the other 3 bills that were sneaked through while the BBC was wildly inflating the death toll? I posted them up already and I'm sure everyone is far more interested in their (and their kids') future relationship with the state than if Boris will stay or go.

Though maybe not.

I honestly don't understand how easily the trivial is elevated and the real business of the day is buried. I can't fathom how so many people buy into it. You could just ignore it, but some people go out of their way to defend the indefensible.

Letters

27-01-2022, 09:30 AM

Not even a glimpse beyond the approved BBC version of events is permitted. At least a few peers are still interested in stuff that's apparently not happening, like the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, for example. But not you.
Not me?
You keep mentioning these bills. I'm not ignoring you. I keep responding the same way. Which is:
Yes, I agree there are concerns. But my gut feeling is that they won't make as much difference as you think, if any. I don't believe we are sliding in to a police state.

Kids won't have to wear masks in school (a crime in itself), so that means (by some reasoning I can't possibly guess at) the raft of bills and legislation sneaked or sneaking into law isn't worth a mention.
Of course it's worth a mention. You've mentioned it plenty of times and I've responded plenty of times and I have again above.

Above you said "If control isn't the aim then why do we always end up with more restrictions and less wealth each time one of these euphemisms hits?"
and I said:
"What freedoms did we have 5 years ago - or 10 or 50 or however long you want to go back - that we don't have now?"

I note you've dodged the question. I'd suggest people have the same freedoms now than they have had in the past. Arguably more if you want to go back a bit further.
I'll remind you again that you were the one predicting all kinds of dystopia about 15 months ago. And you said those things would be happening "soon". Obviously that's a bit of a nebulous word, but I'd suggest that the exact opposite of what you predicted would happen has happened. Instead of restrictions tightening further they have been all but removed. A thing that confuses me about you is why don't you ever reflect on that? You haven't even acknowledged it. Why don't you think "well if I got that wrong, maybe I'm getting this wrong too"?

TL;DR - I don't think we have any less freedom now than we had in the past. If you disagree then tell me what you think has changed - I mean practically, what's different in our day to day life?
The couple of years were an outlier but they were temporary measures to deal with a solution. We can talk about whether the measures were proportionate but that's a separate discussion.
And yes, I agree that some of the bills being passed are of concern. But my gut feel is that they won't make as much difference as you suppose. Because, actually, I don't think the government are authoritarian. My evidence for that is the temporary and changing nature of the Covid restrictions - they had all the excuse they needed to impose more over the winter if they wanted to, but they didn't. And they have certainly been a lot less willing to lock us all up than some other governments.

Niall_Quinn

27-01-2022, 11:41 AM

I note you've dodged the question.

I gave a concrete example. Ugly Patel even boasted about breaking from the "outmoded" common law. It's authoritarian in the extreme and terrifying in its implications.

But that's the other thing I was saying. You explain this to people and they say, no, that's not happening. Or no, that's not a problem because the state would never do that. Or, in your case, "that's a concern", but it doesn't represent a loss of liberty or a slide into authoritarianism - despite it being the very definition of those things. Then you go on to say there's no loss because I can't provide an example.

So. Hopeless.

Letters

27-01-2022, 11:53 AM

OK. Well let's see what difference it makes to anyone's day to day life. My guess is - pretty much none. Although Patel is one to watch, admittedly.
You said "why do we always end up with more restrictions and less wealth each time one of these euphemisms hits" - you implied there was an ongoing erosion of our freedoms.
Hence my question:
"What freedoms did we have 5 years ago - or 10 or 50 or however long you want to go back - that we don't have now?"
Which you still haven't answered, but OK you gave an example of something which you believe will erode our freedoms.
So I guess we'll see. But as I've noted, your foresight has previously been shown to be less than 20:20.
Which isn't a criticism, none of knows for sure what's going to happen.
But you make these predictions with unshakable certainty which doesn't seem to be knocked when you're shown to be wrong.

Niall_Quinn

30-01-2022, 12:57 AM

"What freedoms did we have 5 years ago - or 10 or 50 or however long you want to go back - that we don't have now?"

To pick one at random, I guess you've missed the ongoing censorship crisis? This is an outrageous and quite open assault on the exchange of ideas, opinions and even scientific debate. What has happened in the last year, let alone 5, has greatly reduced not just the opportunity for people to speak their mind but also for the broad population to be able to consume information so they can make up their own minds.

It has been censorship that has allowed the great covid scam to unfold, despite the ridiculousness of its "the science" narrative. In a world of open debate that narrative would have been shot to pieces in no time flat. As it is we now live in a place where a great number of people genuinely believe the covid narrative is genuine and based on actual science. Every professional voice that has exposed it has been shot down. The mere fact this is happening speaks against the credibility of the narrative being pushed. The truth has no need for censorship.

Taking that further and reflecting the utter bullshit that's happening today (and we should know better given even recent history) we have the Ukraine fantasy. Almost nothing of substance has penetrated the mainstream, due to the loss of open debate that has occurred in the last 5 years and is accelerating at breakneck pace.

Then there's the subversion of the legal system. The Assange situation is beyond the pale. Censorship inserts itself here too. People ought to be outraged and terrified about what has been done. But many genuinely believe Assange has committed some sort of crime, but more still don't even know the facts or are unaware anything is happening at all.

The bottom line, if the state wants to snatch you off the street and lock you up in contravention of every legal foundation that has been constructed over centuries, it can do it. If the state and its media accomplice want to smear and discredit you out of social existence it can be done. All of the safeguard have been removed.

Because you will obey in every respect, of course you will see no practical consequences in your own life (existence?). Just be sure not to ever step out of line and have a thought of your own. Because that now carries dire consequences. You do not control the state. The state controls you. And the state can (see the relevant bill) defy the law you yourself are bound by to keep you in line. But, as I say, that is not a concern in your case.

Letters

07-02-2022, 03:11 PM

To pick one at random, I guess you've missed the ongoing censorship crisis? This is an outrageous and quite open assault on the exchange of ideas, opinions and even scientific debate.

Do you mean things like YouTube demonetising or even removing certain content? Or FB putting notifications on certain posts that they contain misleading information?
You might mean more than that, but I'll respond to what I've said for now.
I have mixed feelings about all that. Because I do believe in freedom of speech. But I do also think there are real dangers in the "post truth" world we now find ourselves in. As Ricky Gervais lamented, it used to be "my opinion is as good as your opinion", now it's "my opinion is as good as your fact".
An alarming number of people now believe that the earth is flat. 20 years ago no-one had heard of the flat earth society. Now there are flat earth conventions. Why? Because instead of some nutter shouting about flat earth on a street corner and passers by laughing at him, he can now set up a web site and with a fair wind reach millions of people. People are, on average, scientifically illiterate. So people who like a good conspiracy theory and don't understand science can get sucked in. There's no real danger in someone believing that the earth is flat, but other conspiracy theories or wrong beliefs are more harmful. That's particularly true in the area of medicine where people can seek "alternative" treatments which have no proven track record.

I do think there's a problem which requires a solution. I'm less sure what that solution is. Removing content doesn't feel right - I mean, they're private companies so have the right to, but given their reach they are setting themselves up as arbiters of truth. FB or YouTube flagging posts which contain misinformation seems like a decent compromise, it highlights that the content is disputed and gives links to alternative points of view.

But I don't agree that any of this hampers scientific debate. Papers are still published publicly for scrutiny and peer review. Nothing is being censored.
It might be that fringe views are not expressed in the mainstream but should they give voice to every outlying opinion?
And it might be that fringe views get less or even no funding because of course they do. You're not going to get very far asking for funding to conduct research into something which pretty much all experts in a field thing is wrong.

What has happened in the last year, let alone 5, has greatly reduced not just the opportunity for people to speak their mind but also for the broad population to be able to consume information so they can make up their own minds.
And yet we have far more diversity of opinion and more polarised opinions than ever. Because actually it's far easier these days for people to find alternative points of view.
And the worrying thing is we have more sources of information that ever and many of them pander to certain world views which makes people more entrenched in their world views and less likely to seek out alternative opinions.

What do you mean by the "great covid scam"? What is the "covid narrative"? And if all opposing voices have been censored then how do you know about them? They can't have been censored very well.

The bottom line, if the state wants to snatch you off the street and lock you up in contravention of every legal foundation that has been constructed over centuries, it can do it. If the state and its media accomplice want to smear and discredit you out of social existence it can be done. All of the safeguard have been removed.
And are you asserting that's a new thing? I reckon they've always been able to do that. And if anything they can't do it quietly any more, thanks to the internet and smart phones everything is on record and known to the public almost immediately. Thankfully, they generally don't do that so yeah, there are no practical consequences for me, or for you, or for almost anyone. Which is why you can post freely on here about how controlled you are without being snatched off the streets. And our relatively benign government is also why we are now pretty much back to normal now rather than having curfews and army checkpoints. Because they were never interested in controlling us to that degree, they were trying to deal with "a situation". I think we agree they made a hash of it, but that's a separate conversation.

Letters

09-02-2022, 01:59 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60319947

All remaining Covid restrictions in England - including the legal rule to self-isolate - could end later this month, Boris Johnson has said.

Under the current rules, anyone who tests positive must self-isolate for at least five days.

The current restrictions are due to expire on 24 March.

But Mr Johnson told MPs he expected the last domestic rules would end early as long as the positive trends in the data continued.

:partytime:

Letters

15-02-2022, 12:50 PM

Ah knickers.
I have my first work trip - my first trip overseas anywhere actually - since the pandemic started next week.
I'm getting stressed about how it all works. I thought my Covid Pass thing was enough to travel, but it's saying something about pre-flight checks.
Do they do that at the airport? :(

dazthegooner

15-02-2022, 01:02 PM

Yep Rubber gloves time :yikes:

WMUG

16-02-2022, 12:48 PM

Niall_Quinn

16-02-2022, 05:18 PM

Letters

16-02-2022, 05:55 PM

Don't worry about it. Everything is the same as it was before and it won't affect you.

Well, no.
But neither are the army on the streets.
We don’t have curfews or checkpoints.
The restrictions I’m talking about are imposed by a foreign government.
Over here - it’s half term and I had today off and we all went to a local zoo which has stuff for kids.
There were no restrictions. Everything was open. No social distancing, no masks, no Covid passes.
The soft play was open with no restrictions, it was predictable bedlam.
So yeah, things are as normal here as they’ve been since before the pandemic, the direction of travel has been to remove restrictions, the exact opposite of the dystopia you predicted.
And as for Poland, a mate who goes there fairly regularly (he married a Pole) told me, when I asked him for advice, that things are loads better there than they were a year ago. So it seems the direction of travel is the same there.

So, are things normal here? Pretty much. There are no real restrictions on our lives right now.
Everything is open, masks aren’t required in most places. The Covid Pass is no longer required for entry into events. Do you spend your evenings in the pub complaining about being locked in your house? :shrug:

Letters

16-02-2022, 06:01 PM

Depends on the destination country.

Poland. I think I just need a negative test result.
The mate I mentioned in my previous post said his wife got away with a LFT she did at home.
Probably because she’s a Pole! I’ve booked a test to get an official result.

Niall_Quinn

16-02-2022, 08:15 PM

Well, no.
But neither are the army on the streets.
We don’t have curfews or checkpoints.
The restrictions I’m talking about are imposed by a foreign government.
Over here - it’s half term and I had today off and we all went to a local zoo which has stuff for kids.
There were no restrictions. Everything was open. No social distancing, no masks, no Covid passes.
The soft play was open with no restrictions, it was predictable bedlam.
So yeah, things are as normal here as they’ve been since before the pandemic, the direction of travel has been to remove restrictions, the exact opposite of the dystopia you predicted.
And as for Poland, a mate who goes there fairly regularly (he married a Pole) told me, when I asked him for advice, that things are loads better there than they were a year ago. So it seems the direction of travel is the same there.

So, are things normal here? Pretty much. There are no real restrictions on our lives right now.
Everything is open, masks aren’t required in most places. The Covid Pass is no longer required for entry into events. Do you spend your evenings in the pub complaining about being locked in your house? :shrug:

Just a little triggered there I think. Anyway, even if it did affect you, you easily be able to deny and excuse it all away. So, like I say, don't worry about it.

Onto climate change, tally ho!

Ollie the Optimist

17-02-2022, 08:21 AM

If it wasnt so serious, it would be quite amusing watching boris Johnson & his “allies” try to come up with excuses for being at parties.

First he said there were no parties
Then he said that even though there were no parties, they complied with the rules
Then it was i didnt know parties were against hte rules even though i made the rules
Then Downing Street is both an office & flat so rules are unclear

Now he has two new excuses according to various articles today. The first being that because he didn’t get drunk, it wasnt a party and the second being that it only became a party after he left.

If he had stood up, admitted it when first accused, he probably would have got away with it. The fact he denied it all just led to the drip feeding of allegations which just makes the whole thing worse. Also the argument he didnt know the rules is quite an incredible one given he set the fucking rules.

Ive seen many supporters on social media argue that a fixed penalty notice wouldn’t be a resigning matter and normally i would agree. There was a tory MP who got a fixed penalty notice for parking in the wrong place this week and got 3 points & a fine. Is that a resigning matter? Of course not.
However, the covid rules are so unique in the fact everyone was living in lockdown and expected the prime minister to lead by example. He set the rules so to be having countless parties (i think 12 incidents are being investigated by the police) is absolutely a resigning matter if he gets a fixed penalty notice (regardless of whether it is for just one party or all 12)

Letters

17-02-2022, 08:51 AM

Anyway, even if it did affect you, you easily be able to deny and excuse it all away. So, like I say, don't worry about it.
It has affected me. It's affected all of us. The lockdowns, the 2020 Christmas debacle, the restrictions. It's been tough on everyone.
Of course Covid has affected me although as these things go it probably has affected others worse. And now the travel restrictions are stressing me out.
But, what you are repeatedly failing to acknowledge is how wrong you got it and the direction of travel.
You know the things you confidently predicted. They didn't happen. The exact opposite happened.
Instead of ever increasing restrictions they have been relaxed. Even with the huge number of cases over Christmas - the perfect excuse to exert more control on us if "they" really wanted to - they didn't do it.
Right now life in the UK is as normal as it has been since pre-pandemic.
The thing I'll never understand about you is how this all bounces off you. You don't acknowledge you got it wrong, you don't seem to try any introspection to think about why you got it wrong.
And you continue to make predictions as confidently as you ever did. Weird.

Letters

17-02-2022, 08:52 AM

However, the covid rules are so unique in the fact everyone was living in lockdown and expected the prime minister to lead by example. He set the rules so to be having countless parties (i think 12 incidents are being investigated by the police) is absolutely a resigning matter if he gets a fixed penalty notice (regardless of whether it is for just one party or all 12)
Correct. I'd suggest it's a resigning matter either way. He clearly did it, whether he gets fined for it shouldn't be the deciding factor in whether he should resign or not.
He won't, of course, because he doesn't have any honour. They'll have to force him out and I'm not sure they have the balls to.

Niall_Quinn

17-02-2022, 06:15 PM

It has affected me. It's affected all of us. The lockdowns, the 2020 Christmas debacle, the restrictions. It's been tough on everyone.
Of course Covid has affected me although as these things go it probably has affected others worse. And now the travel restrictions are stressing me out.
But, what you are repeatedly failing to acknowledge is how wrong you got it and the direction of travel.
You know the things you confidently predicted. They didn't happen. The exact opposite happened.
Instead of ever increasing restrictions they have been relaxed. Even with the huge number of cases over Christmas - the perfect excuse to exert more control on us if "they" really wanted to - they didn't do it.
Right now life in the UK is as normal as it has been since pre-pandemic.
The thing I'll never understand about you is how this all bounces off you. You don't acknowledge you got it wrong, you don't seem to try any introspection to think about why you got it wrong.
And you continue to make predictions as confidently as you ever did. Weird.

That's called reflection. You blame me for your own behaviour.

You steadfastly ignore every extraordinary development, especially those detailed to you mainly by myself, and focus purely on what you are "allowed" or "not allowed" to do by the state, as if the state has any mandate to issue such decrees. As sweeping new powers for the state are ushered in, you say we are now "allowed" to enter buildings without a mask. Therefore liberty has been restored and there is nothing to see. As sweeping new powers for the police are ushered in, you say we are "allowed" to congregate in groups larger than six (provided it is not an unsanctioned protest of course). Again, liberty restored. As trillions are transferred from the population of the planet into the hands of the few you rejoice you are "allowed" to see your grandmother (assuming the state hasn't already murdered her). And so it goes. The subverted science, the blatant lies and double standards from those in control as they directed you this way and that. You insist it's not about control despite gloating about being "allowed" to live your life as normal, as if it's a gift bestowed by your betters.

You say, sure, they got some things wrong (like passing a bill that allows them to commit crimes without liability, for example), but "something needed to be done." Like breaching human rights, destroying the economy, putting people out of work, murdering the elderly, stealing vast sums of money, etc, etc. You especially ignore events unfolding beyond your own bubble, almost as if globalisation and the centralisation of power is a myth and the WHO, IMF, WEF are mere figments of the imagination.

It's inches from your eyes, right under your nose. But your indomitable slave mentality shields you from even a fleeting glimpse.

Letters

18-02-2022, 12:33 PM

That's called reflection. You blame me for your own behaviour.
What behaviour? What are you even talking about here? I'm just commenting on the fact that you confidently predicted certain things, the exact opposite happened.
That isn't an opinion, despite your repeated refusal to acknowledge it. If the army are on the streets then their camouflage is working well, 'cos I can't see them. Where are the checkpoints? When's the curfew?
You're not still going to pretend you were talking about other countries, are you?
I even explained why you were wrong about these things. Because the underlying assumption which they were based on - that "they" are out to control the minutiae of our lives - is incorrect.

You steadfastly ignore every extraordinary development, especially those detailed to you mainly by myself
What are you talking about? We've had exchanges about all these things.
We've talked about the bills, I've agreed there are concerns. But my gut feeling is they won't make as much difference as you think. The last time we spoke about this I mentioned the protests over Christmas/New Year. I can't remember what about, think it was against some of the mask rules or something. Were those people all carted off to prison? We've talked about the wealth transfer too.

focus purely on what you are "allowed" or "not allowed" to do by the state, as if the state has any mandate to issue such decrees.
Well, they do have that mandate. This is the other thing you are consistently wrong about. The government have a mandate to run the country. That means they get to make the laws.
Laws, by definition, tell you what you can and can't do. You're not allowed to drive at 100mph, for example.
If they want to make a law which says we all have to stay in our homes then they have that right. It wouldn't be the first time they've made extreme laws to deal with an extreme situation - we've spoken about the Wartime laws.
You might have ideological issues with a government that can do that, but the fact is we do have one and we have always had in recent history.
Thankfully, our government are, as these things go, pretty benign. They don't generally interfere with our day to day lives.
We are allowed to go to church for example - I don't generally think of it as something we are "allowed" to do, but there are some countries where churches aren't allowed to meet.
Overall our government are not particularly oppressive.

I personally think the government made a complete hash of the response to the pandemic. That doesn't mean I think no response was required.
And the important thing is it was a response to a situation. The proof of that is that the response changed as the situation did. Hence the current state where pretty much all restrictions have been lifted.
I don't know if I'm "celebrating" that but it is the opposite of what you predicted and overall I'm happy that life is more normal again, aren't you? At the height of the pandemic I couldn't have had that family day out on Wednesday, now I can. That's a good thing, isn't it? Would you have preferred checkpoints and curfews?

Yes, I think "something needed to be done.". I think the something they did was wrong and has largely caused more damage than good. I'm not ignoring any of those things - I have repeatedly said I think their response was wrong.
BUT...it was a response. It wasn't all about control. If it was then why have they rolled back pretty much all the restrictions? If they wanted to control us in the ways you predicted they had the perfect excuse over Christmas when cases were through the roof - far higher than the previous Christmas.

It's inches from your eyes, right under your nose. But your indomitable slave mentality shields you from even a fleeting glimpse.
It's not slave mentality, it's an understanding that we live in a society with a government who are in charge of making the laws which govern it.
You might have ideological issues with that, I don't know how to respond to that other than "ok then".
I don't have an issue with it because overall I think the benefits of living in a society are worth the cost. If you disagree then...ok then. We'll agree to disagree.
I do have an issue with the way the government do certain things of course. But the principle of them being able to respond to situations is sound.
And yes, that does mean they might impose unusual restrictions in unusual circumstances. This is the first time in my lifetime it's happened, so it's hardly a regular occurrence.

If I thought we were slipping into a totalitarian regime - the sorts of things you were predicting - then I would have a problem with that.
But I never saw it that way and I've explained why - the restrictions kept changing as the situation did. This exchange started with you sarcastically saying "everything is the same as it was before and it won't affect you."
That's a straw man in two ways - I never said the pandemic hasn't affected me at all, and I never said that everything is the same as it was before.
But the direction of travel is certainly towards normality, which is the opposite direction to the one you predicted. I think that's a good thing, don't you?

Niall_Quinn

18-02-2022, 09:45 PM

But the direction of travel is certainly towards normality

I can't help you.

Letters

19-02-2022, 08:58 AM

I can't help you.

I didn’t ask you to.

The part of my post you quoted isn’t an opinion. It’s the objective reality of living in the UK over the last couple of years. The family day out I had on Wednesday wouldn’t have been possible for much of 2020, the place would have been closed. At other times in 2020 and 2021 we could have gone but with restrictions - social distancing, masks in certain parts. Now, there’s no restrictions at all. Church has gone from meeting virtually to some limited in person meetings but with masks and social distancing to now where we meet as before.
There’s are still some lingering restrictions in the UK like self isolation after a positive test but there are plans to remove those too.

If you don’t acknowledge that life is more normal now than it has been at any point since the pandemic started then you’re either trolling or gaslighting. And if you don’t acknowledge that it’s the exact opposite of the increasing restrictions you predicted then it’s not me who needs help.

Niall_Quinn

19-02-2022, 09:57 AM

I didn’t ask you to.

The part of my post you quoted isn’t an opinion. It’s the objective reality of living in the UK over the last couple of years. The family day out I had on Wednesday wouldn’t have been possible for much of 2020, the place would have been closed. At other times in 2020 and 2021 we could have gone but with restrictions - social distancing, masks in certain parts. Now, there’s no restrictions at all. Church has gone from meeting virtually to some limited in person meetings but with masks and social distancing to now where we meet as before.
There’s are still some lingering restrictions in the UK like self isolation after a positive test but there are plans to remove those too.

If you don’t acknowledge that life is more normal now than it has been at any point since the pandemic started then you’re either trolling or gaslighting. And if you don’t acknowledge that it’s the exact opposite of the increasing restrictions you predicted then it’s not me who needs help.

I was attempting an intervention.

You keep on proving my point, not because you agree with me but because you are blissfully unaware. I think. I can't imagine why you'd deliberately delude yourself.

I said you refuse point blank to discuss anything beyond what you are "allowed" to do. Like a child. Everything else, can't see, can't hear, won't speak other than to conclude it doesn't affect you therefore there's nothing to talk about. You are happy to believe in the cult of warmism but refuse to accept the "conspiracy theories" that reveal a world changing around your ears. Fear, is that what it? You find it frightening so you can't accept it? Well, the more people who stand against it the less fearful it becomes.

Letters

20-02-2022, 01:24 PM

Gawd Bless ‘Er!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60453566

WMUG

20-02-2022, 01:32 PM

Bank holiday coming up? :satan:

Letters

20-02-2022, 01:40 PM

Bank holiday coming up? :satan:

This is a good point. I guess it’s win win. She lives, we get the Platinum Jubilee holiday. If she dies we’ll get a day off for that.

Although…if she holds on then we get both so come on, Liz. Hang in there.

WMUG

20-02-2022, 03:03 PM

This is a good point. I guess it’s win win. She lives, we get the Platinum Jubilee holiday. If she dies we’ll get a day off for that.

Although…if she holds on then we get both so come on, Liz. Hang in there.

Oh shit, hadn't considered that. I need the Jubilee as well, I've booked annual leave around it.

Hold on, Queenie :pray:

Niall_Quinn

20-02-2022, 04:29 PM

If she dies you get Charles. Which will be one of the darkest days humanity has faced.

So I cross my fingers and hope she lives in the further hope she outlasts that ungodly son of hers.

Xhaka Can’t

20-02-2022, 05:34 PM

I don’t care much about it beyond getting the extra day of bad weather.

Mac76

21-02-2022, 11:25 AM

If she dies you get Charles. Which will be one of the darkest days humanity has faced.

So I cross my fingers and hope she lives in the further hope she outlasts that ungodly son of hers.

oh **** i agree with you :faint:

Letters

23-02-2022, 09:02 AM

Sorry, meant to reply to this sooner.

I said you refuse point blank to discuss anything beyond what you are "allowed" to do. Like a child. Everything else, can't see, can't hear, won't speak other than to conclude it doesn't affect you therefore there's nothing to talk about.
I don't know what you mean by this. I've responded to your comments on the other stuff multiple times.
A for example, it's not that I don't think the bills you've highlighted will affect me, I don't really think they will affect many people. The powers could certainly be misused and I guess I'll concede they probably will be, but protests are still allowed, the people protesting recently weren't all carted off to prison. So I don't know what else to say about that other than to agree there are some concerns there but my gut feel is it's not as draconian as you imagine. I guess time will tell. What else is there to say about it right now?

Obviously the restrictions are the thing which most directly affects my day to day life. What is it that I enjoy in life?
Seeing friends and family, going to church and seeing friends there. Going out for meals, going to shows. Family days out.
For a while none of those things were possible. Zoom did a job in that time and it was better than nothing but it's not the same, is it?
Life wasn't much fun then.
So yeah. The thing I care most is the restrictions. I'm happy to talk about the other things and I have multiple times.
But obviously I'm happy that those restrictions have all been lifted and life is feeling more normal again. Aren't you?
That's a good thing, isn't it?

You are happy to believe in the cult of warmism but refuse to accept the "conspiracy theories" that reveal a world changing around your ears. Fear, is that what it? You find it frightening so you can't accept it? Well, the more people who stand against it the less fearful it becomes.
I believe "warmism" because most of the SMEs in this area agree it's a thing. And, actually, the climate has noticeably changed in my lifetime.
To not believe it would be to ignore the reality of being alive for over 40 years and noticing how the climate has changed in that time.
Obviously you can find some nay sayers in the scientific community but I'd suggest they are the outliers. In your mind they are the "real scientists", but this is something I've notices you do quite a lot: the real scientists/doctors/etc are the ones who agree with you. All the others are mainstream and so can be dismissed.

The sorts of ever increasing restrictions you predicted are scary. I never thought they would happen - not because they were too scary to contemplate, simply because our government aren't authoritarian and have no interest in controlling our day to day lives in the way you suggested they would. The things the government did were clearly a response to a situation. We can discuss whether they were the right response - we agree they weren't - but they were a response nonetheless. The evidence for that was the way the restrictions kept changing over time as the data changed. Right now we are pretty much back to normal life. The only difference in my day to day life now compared with before the pandemic is I'm working at home. But that's a choice, the organisation I work for haven't put pressure on us to go back in, most of the colleagues I know well aren't going in so I don't either. And actually with young kids it's quite nice to be around. That's one thing the pandemic has done for many people, changed their attitude to working at home. I think the default of working 5 days a week in an office might be a thing of the past now.

So, has the world changed around me? I think for most people life is pretty much the same now as it was before. The biggest issue which will affect people's day to day life is the rising cost of living and wage stagnation. I'm not sure what to say about that other than to agree that's a bad thing. But we're not all being kept in our homes as you predicted. Life is feeling pretty normal. I continue to be baffled that you never acknowledge you were wrong about that and consider why you were wrong about it.

Letters

23-02-2022, 09:04 AM

If she dies you get Charles. Which will be one of the darkest days humanity has faced.
By the way :lol:
This is a bit hyperbolic, isn't it?! I'm not a huge fan of him but I think "darkest days humanity has faced" is somewhat overstating things!

Niall_Quinn

23-02-2022, 10:41 AM

Not in the least hyperbolic, if anything I found the English language restrictive in describing this creature. Maybe Latin would have been better.

Your other response, above, is the same as the last one and the one before that. But thanks anyway.

Mac76

23-02-2022, 10:44 AM

By the way :lol:
This is a bit hyperbolic, isn't it?! I'm not a huge fan of him but I think "darkest days humanity has faced" is somewhat overstating things!

no he's right

Letters

23-02-2022, 11:04 AM

Your other response, above, is the same as the last one and the one before that.
Yes. And I once again responded to all the things you said I'm not responding to :shrug:

Niall_Quinn

23-02-2022, 05:19 PM

Yes. And I once again responded to all the things you said I'm not responding to :shrug:

By not responding. Simply saying, sure, a shitload of authoritarian crap is now on the books or slouching towards them unchallenged, but it won't affect anything because we are now allowed to go to discos is hardly a response. It's a dismissal of the issue and a changing of the subject.

Anyway, we don't need to discuss it anymore because Justin Trudeau gave us a practical demonstration of the reality. Now Biden has activated the new "Jan 6" measures in advance of U.S. citizens stepping out of line. The idea none of it will make any difference is pure fantasy in the face of the actual differences that are occurring. Being "allowed" to visit a restaurant without informing on yourself to the state has no direct relevance.

I have pointed out the obvious difference between principle and practice. To dismiss principle for practicality is to open the door for abuse, whether the abuse immediately, or ever, occurs or not. The mere possibility it can legitimately (in terms of law) occur is inherently unacceptable. I can say, I have a right to enter your home when I choose, although I won't. Are you satisfied with that? It makes no difference in your life, because I won't enter your home. But I reserve the right to, especially if some "emergency" (which I will arbitrarily assign) occurs.

To remind you. The state and its agents can now commit crimes without liability. The state and its agents can criminalise public protest against the state and its agents. The police will soon be able to detain a citizen without reason or suspicion of criminal intent or behaviour. For starters. That's the mild gateway authoritarianism that has been winning plaudits from citizens suffering under more draconian regimes, in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, France, Germany, parts of the United States, for example. And, of course, hell holes like China, Korea, Russia, Saudi, etc, etc, which used to be examples of what civilised nations should avoid at all cost but to which our governments now aspire.

Trudeau's puppeteers have decreed it is legal for the state to steal money, steal property, suspend the democratic process, hire agents without oath and then bestow extraordinary powers on those mercenaries. And so on. Tinpot tyrants in Australia can snatch people off the streets and lock them in camps, indefinitely if the victim does not comply. We'll see what the lunatics controlling Biden have up their sleeves and behind the curtain in the coming days and weeks as Americans attempt to exert their constitutional rights.

None of this may be happening on your street. That's of small consolation to the millions of people (and growing) who used to live in relatively free societies but are increasingly at risk of falling under jackboots should they step an inch out of line. Closer and closer to the Chinese ideal.

This is what I mean by non-response. You casual dismissal of real world events while claiming "my science" is biased or your party-going trivialities are alive and well addresses nothing, answers nothing.

You've even celebrated being "allowed" to go to church, proving conclusively you do not (or do not want to) understand what principles are.

Niall_Quinn

23-02-2022, 05:29 PM

Crap, forgot to preempt your obvious response. No, the UK is not Canada or Australia or the USA. But it is a key component of the globalist structure that is being imposed on the planet and in which our peers are also intimately engaged. You must decide if your street will lead the western and global trends or if powers further afield will instead impose their will on you. There is recent precedent to guide you. The former might be considered naive, although I wish it were possible.

Niall_Quinn

24-02-2022, 10:44 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvSSgPkW-oc

Here's my affiliate link if you want to get another booster shot: https://www.itwasallaboutprofitfordayone.com/?id=suckerlol

Niall_Quinn

26-02-2022, 07:09 PM

Here we are, from the horse's arse.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/health-and-social-care-secretary-sajid-javid-hsj-digital-transformation-summit-speech

Do you understand now?

Letters

28-02-2022, 12:29 PM

By not responding. Simply saying, sure, a shitload of authoritarian crap is now on the books or slouching towards them unchallenged, but it won't affect anything because we are now allowed to go to discos is hardly a response. It's a dismissal of the issue and a changing of the subject.

There are two things. One is the bills which you have highlighted. The other is the restrictions on our day to day lives. Those two things are tangentially linked, the link being that the latter shows the type of government we have, and that informs the potential impact the bills might have. I have agreed that the bills are of potential concern. My gut feel though is they won't make as much difference as you think.
I might be wrong about that, but time will tell. I don't really know what else there is to talk about now other than to agree there are concerns.
It's not that the bills won't affect us because we are allowed to go to discos. But the fact that all the Covid measures have been rolled back - which, remember, is the exact opposite thing to what you predicted would happen - does tell me that we're not living under the authoritarian regime you suppose. And that leads me to believe that the bills won't be used in the draconian way you imagine. But I guess we'll see. Right now I don't know what there is to discuss about them, the paint is barely dry on them, we don't know for sure what affect they will have.

I have pointed out the obvious difference between principle and practice. To dismiss principle for practicality is to open the door for abuse, whether the abuse immediately, or ever, occurs or not. The mere possibility it can legitimately (in terms of law) occur is inherently unacceptable. I can say, I have a right to enter your home when I choose, although I won't. Are you satisfied with that? It makes no difference in your life, because I won't enter your home. But I reserve the right to, especially if some "emergency" (which I will arbitrarily assign) occurs.

But this is what I've been saying, your issues are ideological. You object to the very principle of a government which can tell us what we are allowed to do and what we aren't. I don't object to that. In a complex society some order is needed. As bad as our version of democracy is, it's better than having a dictator or a monarchy (I mean in the old school sense where the king makes the rules). Democracy is the solution pretty much every country has come up with to the problem of "getting stuff done" - building infrastructure, making laws which we all understand, etc. And yes, there is a price for that - the price being we give up some of our freedom. You don't think that's a price worth paying, I do. And the reason I do is that to continue to your analogy, if you'd said hundreds of years ago that you had the right to enter my home but, actually, you never have. Or fine, you have a couple of times when there's been an emergency but you've left when that emergency is over then I have some confidence that you're not just going to barge in while I'm in the bath for the lolz. If you barged in every 5 minutes for spurious reasons - as they do in some countries - then I might have more of an issue with it.
You have an ideological issue with the idea of a government which can "allow" me to go to church - and therefore not allow me to. I do understand your issue with that principle, I just don't have an issue with it myself and have explained why.

I simply don't agree that there has been ever increasing control on our day to day lives over time. Neither do I agree that there is ever increasing unity between nations in terms of their regimes. You highlighted some of the differences in your post. Those things didn't happen here, I like to think they wouldn't. Throughout this thing countries handled the situation in very different ways.

There are benefits to living within a structure like we do and there's a cost. I personally think the latter is worth it. You don't.
This is a fundamental difference in our worldview and I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. We just see this differently.

Niall_Quinn

28-02-2022, 02:54 PM

We managed to survive without these powers the state has granted itself and its agents. In fact their absence was a a confirmation they work for us and not the the way around. Why are these powers needed now?

WMUG

28-02-2022, 03:13 PM

Niall_Quinn

28-02-2022, 05:35 PM

Are you talking about Covid restrictions or the anti-protest laws?

Not just the anti-protest laws, that's just a small part from one of three bills in question. I posted them all up here and explained the most dangerous aspects of each but they didn't get much attention.

Letters

08-03-2022, 01:20 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60653946

:partytime:

Ollie the Optimist

12-04-2022, 12:52 PM

Boris & Sunak to be fined over lockdown parties.

There is literally no excuse for either of them not to resign. They broke the law they imposed on the rest of us.

Letters

12-04-2022, 01:05 PM

Boris will probably just ride it out again. He always does.

Ollie the Optimist

12-04-2022, 01:07 PM

Boris will probably just ride it out again. He always does.

I suspect you may be right.

But i do wonder if this time is different. People didnt see relatives who were dying due to lockdown etc yet he was partying. I think there will be more anger this time then before and i cant see how he survives. He has lied repeatedly over it too

Letters

12-04-2022, 01:12 PM

Mac76

12-04-2022, 01:51 PM

It does feel different, a while back people were properly angry but then everyone got distracted by the war. Boris is world champion at diffusing stuff like this and riding it out.
There's no way he should of course, but I fear he will.

that's my feeling - Putin has saved him, the pressure was much greater before Ukraine kicked off, plus ofc they'll use the argument that it would be destabilising at this time for the PM to go.

Ollie the Optimist

12-04-2022, 02:20 PM

I think its fair to say Boris has had a “good war” and there is a reason the Ukrainians praise him & the UK for their support over most other western nations. However, i would expect almost all of the candidates to replace him to hold similar views in terms of arming Ukraine etc so unlikely to see that change regardless of who is PM.

It’s also fair to say that he is completely fucking useless on other matters and the fact Russia invaded Ukraine should have nothing to do with the fact he should resign. Let’s also not forget, Johnson likes to compare himself to his hero Churchill who came to power when the PM was ousted during world war 2

Niall_Quinn

12-04-2022, 06:15 PM

I wonder how many lives could have been saved by Ivermectin, had the mainstream media not had dirty sex with the drug pushers?

Niall_Quinn

12-04-2022, 06:20 PM

Fines are a very good way to keep rich people in line. I think Pfizer has paid something like 68billion in fines over its illustrious and apocalyptic, merciful and graceful existence. I'd certainly trust a company that has paid 68billion in fines, why wouldn't I? It's a no-brainer. Who needs a brain?

For poor people. I prefer prison. Or death by explosions that have been marked up 500% Starvation works too. The good thing is, it's inevitable. Nothing can be changed. It is what it is. This is the way we are supposed to be. And now the weather.

13-04-2022, 08:56 AM

So the Tory defence seems to be "he was too stupid to follow the simple rules he wrote, but we can't replace him, because everyone else is even stupider."

How did we get here?

Mac76

13-04-2022, 11:06 AM

So the Tory defence seems to be "he was too stupid to follow the simple rules he wrote, but we can't replace him, because everyone else is even stupider."

How did we get here?

because a lot of voters are really stupid too

Letters

14-04-2022, 08:53 AM

https://mobile.twitter.com/scottygb/status/1514312511935418384?

Letters

14-04-2022, 11:38 AM

So the Tory defence seems to be "he was too stupid to follow the simple rules he wrote, but we can't replace him, because everyone else is even stupider."

How did we get here?
The timeline is mind blowing.
First there were no parties.
Then there might have been parties but Boris didn’t know about them.
Then there were parties but Boris didn’t go.
Then there were parties and Boris did go but he didn’t know they were parties.
Then there were parties and Boris did go but he didn’t know that was against the rules.
Y’know, the rules he read out sternly on TV.

And there’s no consequence. There’s never any consequence.
Because good old Boris. Ha, ha, ha - wiff waff!
It’s baffling and depressing.

Letters

14-04-2022, 11:40 AM

I wonder how many lives could have been saved by Ivermectin, had the mainstream media not had dirty sex with the drug pushers?

I thought Covid wasn’t dangerous? :unsure:
And do you think that the decision to certify drugs for uses and the decision to prescribe them is taken based on articles in the mainstream media? I’m pretty sure that’s not how anything works.

Mac76

14-04-2022, 11:41 AM

I thought Covid wasn’t dangerous? :unsure:

:haha: :haha: :haha:

game set and match

Niall_Quinn

14-04-2022, 06:52 PM

I thought Covid wasn’t dangerous? :unsure:
And do you think that the decision to certify drugs for uses and the decision to prescribe them is taken based on articles in the mainstream media? I’m pretty sure that’s not how anything works.

Covid is dangerous to a tiny minority of the global population, as you know. You also know it wasn't just the media spreading fake news about Ivermectin and any other low/non-profit medication or prophylactic. The CDC put out that infamous horse drug tweet, for example.

But you are right about things not working the way they are claimed to work. The state, their corporate controllers and the media puppets can make people believe all sorts of nonsense. As you know.

Of course using a verifiably safe and long established, Nobel Prize winning drug is far, far more irresponsible than rolling out an untested vaccine in record time. The media said so. And people like you lapped it up. And people like you, with your unquestioning endorsement, killed many people that might have been saved by a 5cents a dose pill. You are only a tiny bit responsible, but all the tiny bits add up to one big pile of it.

Not an issue now I guess, because Ivermectin 2 (in all but name) is now available at $fuckme cost, patented by big pharma. Woo-hoo!

There's nothing to see here. All normal. Onto the next crisis and get your flags ready and your arse-cheeks puckered up. Please sir, may I have another?

Letters

14-04-2022, 09:28 PM

Covid is dangerous to a tiny minority of the global population, as you know.
I think "tiny minority" is an exaggeration. The risks seem to increase significantly for over 60s (I'm talking about Original Covid - the original and still the best, newer variants don't seem to be much of a danger to anyone). Then there's people with the infamous "underlying medical conditions". But one of those which increases the risk is obesity, which is a lot of people in places like the UK and particularly the US where we have a lot of fatties.
There's certainly a lot of people who were never at risk from Covid, but in developed nations with ageing populations and a lot of people with underlying medical conditions I can't agree that's a tiny minority of people.

You also know it wasn't just the media spreading fake news about Ivermectin and any other low/non-profit medication or prophylactic. The CDC put out that infamous horse drug tweet, for example.
There's been so much claim and counter claim about it I don't know how anyone can pick apart what is fake news and what is true.
Your record of discerning one from the other is not as good as you like to imagine.

Of course using a verifiably safe and long established, Nobel Prize winning drug is far, far more irresponsible than rolling out an untested vaccine in record time. The media said so. And people like you lapped it up.
The drug may be safe but that's not the issue. The question is whether it's effective against Covid. And as I said above, there's been lots of claim and counter claim about that. I haven't done any medical trials, nor have you. So, honestly, I don't know what to believe.
The vaccine is not untested, that's a demonstrable lie. You are straw manning the media, I can't "lap up" something they didn't say.

And people like you, with your unquestioning endorsement, killed many people that might have been saved by a 5cents a dose pill. You are only a tiny bit responsible, but all the tiny bits add up to one big pile of it.
I'm not a tiny bit responsible because I have no say in what treatments get approved and what don't.

I'm certainly more trusting than you, I'd concede sometimes too much. But I'd suggest you go too far the other way. Hence your belief that this was all about control (army on the streets, curfews, checkpoints, etc, etc). The fact that none of that happened and we are back to BAU now should surely give you some pause.

As I've said, there's so much claim and counter claim these days it's increasingly difficult to separate fact from fiction.

Letters

25-04-2022, 09:05 AM

FB just reminded me it's the anniversary of me getting my Covid vaccine.
I still seem to be alive, strangely.

25-04-2022, 09:32 AM

FB just reminded me it's the anniversary of me getting my Covid vaccine.
I still seem to be alive, strangely.

That's what the MSM want you to think.

Letters

27-04-2022, 01:30 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-61227709

:popcorn:

Niall_Quinn

28-04-2022, 07:04 AM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-61227709

:popcorn:

So do you see the similarity between this and WMD in Iraq? From a media perspective? It's a tried and tested routine and it works because most people allow it to.

Niall_Quinn

24-05-2022, 08:56 PM

So ANYWAY.

Leaving aside gain of function, bio-labs in China and Ukraine and Fauci's funding. Ignoring all that.

Monkeypox. Eh?

Oooooh. Sounds scary. Better start a party list.

Niall_Quinn

24-05-2022, 08:58 PM

I believe it's today when the vote on whether the utterly corrupted and entirely incompetent WHO is granted, by fiat, control over global health. Nothing to worry about.

Niall_Quinn

11-06-2022, 12:18 AM

Irish mortality data is in for 2020-2021. That's the Covid scam in a nutshell, right there. If the globalists can pull a stunt like this and the majority still remain complacent, I wonder what the limit is? How much can they actually get away with? Your money? Freedom? Life? The future of your kids?

Of course the big question is, will Boris survive or will he have his strings cut and attached to another "public servant"?

I think if people don't wake up soon they are going to wake up dead.

Letters

11-06-2022, 08:18 AM

What are you getting at? I don’t know what data you’re talking about or what you’re reading in to it. Ireland had relatively few Covid deaths, about 7,500, and their deaths per million stars are a lot better than most countries.

Letters

23-07-2022, 03:12 PM

Shall I create a new thread for monkeypox or rename this one?

:doh:

Mac76

23-07-2022, 05:03 PM

"And while anyone can catch monkeypox, the outbreak is overwhelmingly concentrated in gay and bisexual men, as well as other men who have sex with men."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-62279436

so who here is worried? ;)

23-07-2022, 05:49 PM

Not me, why what have you heard?

Globalgunner

23-07-2022, 05:54 PM

LDG

23-07-2022, 06:49 PM

Letters

23-07-2022, 08:14 PM

:lol:

The Wengerbabies

26-07-2022, 07:15 PM

Any of you covidians willing to admit you were duped yet?

How many boosters y'all on now?

Letters

26-07-2022, 10:18 PM

:lol:

Didn’t you spend the last 2 years saying that the lockdowns were permanent?

HCZ_Reborn

27-07-2022, 08:04 AM

Any of you covidians willing to admit you were duped yet?

How many boosters y'all on now?

I love the Covid deniers as if everyone but them are the credulous ones

Not believing everything you’re told is one thing, and on balance it’s reasonable and sensible. Even so called experts get things wrong, Covid can be picked up on surfaces…outdoor transmission is just as much of a risk as indoor transmission, don’t wear masks became do wear masks.
The CDC mandated mask wearing for toddlers based on research that’s complete nonsense and masking kids that age is stupid and cruel.
But given the spread of the virus it was sensible to implement some kind of lockdown until we had a vaccine which we know doesn’t necessarily prevent you from getting it but it means you’re far less likely to become seriously ill as a result. Boosters for this are no different from winter flu jabs.
At the same time I actually think having skepticism towards lockdowns is a good thing to a degree, one should not trust that the type of laws that were the most draconian in terms of free movement and association since the Second World War would not be abused in some way…and it was right to levy some kind of pressure to make sure such laws were not implemented arbitrarily or for any longer than necessary.
For instance I think the lockdown laws in the Antepodean countries were massively over the top and ruinous to peoples mental health, personal freedoms and to their economy.
But widespread public health measures are not something new and in any society there are always trade offs.
One thing I have to say is that the British public were largely sensible in their views, they supported restrictions until they didn’t (when the bed shitters were calling for restrictions with the Omicron variant, the British public in polling made it clear they didn’t want this).
Now equally I believe in freedom of choice, I had the vaccine and the booster, I know people that did not or at least were reluctant (again totally understandable) but the amount of demonstrably false bullshit about the effects of the vaccine were laughable (or would be if they weren’t totally irresponsible). When Kate McCann fainted last night these rancid fuckwits had to peddle the anti vax narrative even then.
Just can’t help themselves.

I do get it, people don’t like being told what to do either by legal injunction or by societal pressure. But there’s no need to lie about it

Letters

27-07-2022, 09:21 AM

From October 2021:

Lockdown coming soon then... :rolleyes:

Didn't happen.

From Nov 2021:

Ireland reimposing restrictions despite 93% vaccination, still think this is going to end?

...it seems to have ended. Currently no restrictions in place even if you test positive you don't have to isolate.

Also Nov 2021:

Of course it was preparing us. Two years ago you'd never think it would be illegal to hug your parents, or any of the other bullshit, now we're waiting, condition to expect and accept another lockdown. Part of the new normal.

No lockdowns since this post. From the same post:

Vax passports on our phone are to get us used to checking in at every location, soon that will be the new normal.

Long since rolled back.

So... :shrug:

Letters

27-07-2022, 09:48 AM

TL;DR - try some introspection. Why are certain people so bad at that?

Late 2020 I was having a debate with my nephew. He's a doom-monger and was saying that there would be a load of Covid deaths over the winter. I said no there wouldn't and my reasoning was that at the time while cases were increasing, hospitalisations and deaths weren't.
I was wrong. I realised I was wrong when I saw the data. So I thought about why I was wrong. Basically, I'd not considered that there's a natural lag between cases, hospitalisations and a lag between those and deaths.

Why do certain people not do that? They make confident predictions like they're the ones who have it all figured out.
Then when the exact opposite happens they just double down and still think they're the ones who have it all figured out.
They never admit they were wrong or stop to think why they were wrong. They just move on to the next thing with the same confidence.
Odd.

27-07-2022, 10:19 AM

It's because they are stupid.

Letters

27-07-2022, 11:30 AM

It's because they are stupid.

I don't know about that. There are some psychological traps people fall into which we are all prone to.
Only thing you can do is to be aware of them and be introspective.
If people can't honestly look back at their opinions/predictions in the light of new information and unfolding events, admit they were wrong and consider why then they are doomed to repeat their mistakes.

Xhaka Can’t

27-07-2022, 12:40 PM

Any of you covidians willing to admit you were duped yet?

How many boosters y'all on now?

Like herpes, just when you think it is gone, WB just keeps coming back.

27-07-2022, 10:08 PM

Like herpes, just when you think it is gone, WB just keeps coming back.

Only you can prevent forest fires.

Letters

28-07-2022, 06:11 AM

I think you need boosters every 6 months against WB forever.
Bloody big Pharma!

LDG

28-07-2022, 06:28 AM

Like herpes, just when you think it is gone, WB just keeps coming back.

I canesten him

Letters

28-07-2022, 07:06 AM

:doh:

The Wengerbabies

28-07-2022, 08:26 AM

:lol:

Didn’t you spend the last 2 years saying that the lockdowns were permanent?

No my concern has always been the precedent it set, wilfully giving away our freedoms.

From October 2021:

Didn't happen.

From Nov 2021:

...it seems to have ended. Currently no restrictions in place even if you test positive you don't have to isolate.

Also Nov 2021:

No lockdowns since this post. From the same post:

Long since rolled back.

So... :shrug:

I was wrong.

But the fact I was wrong may actually be worse, it's still here the vaccines are doing nothing yet we are back to "normal" so we really did waste 2 years for nothing?

Letters

28-07-2022, 09:08 AM

It didn’t set a precedent you silly sausage.

We had this conversation multiple times. In War Time it was illegal to open your curtains with the lights on. You could be fined. And you could only by a certain amount of food and other things.
These weren’t some random power grabs and restrictions on our freedom. They were extraordinarily measures designed to deal with an extraordinary situation. The government has always had the power to do this. The wartime restrictions were lifted when the situation allowed - rationing on some things lasted well into the 50s, the effects of the War took a long time to recover from.

Covid was the same. The measures were designed to deal with the situation. We can have a sensible conversation about whether they were the right restrictions at the right time, but it was clear they were a response, not a random power grab. Because the restrictions kept changing as the situation, now we are back to BAU.

The vaccines didn’t “do nothing”, they significantly reduced the severity of Covid for many people. That’s part of why winter 2021 was a lot better than winter 2020. And yes, herd immunity and newer variants being less virulent were factors too.

In brief, we didn’t waste 2 years. There was a situation which demanded a response. I don’t think the response was the right one although they did get some things right (the vaccine rollout and the furlough scheme, IMO). And the government enacting special powers to deal with extreme situations is not unprecedented. They’ve done it before and rolled back those measures when they could, they’ve done the same thing here.

Mac76

29-07-2022, 10:54 AM

Letters

29-07-2022, 11:14 AM

I think that’s something we can all agree on :lol:
Well, maybe not Ollie…

The Wengerbabies

31-07-2022, 08:38 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBSTEFKmDw

President Joe Biden tests positive for Covid-19 again
(https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/30/politics/joe-biden-covid-19-positive/index.html) :coffee:

Xhaka Can’t

31-07-2022, 01:04 PM

You are as dull as fuck.

Letters

31-07-2022, 02:50 PM

I think he thinks he’s made a point

(He hasn’t)

The Wengerbabies

19-08-2022, 03:05 PM

Niall_Quinn

19-08-2022, 03:10 PM

Lockdown effects feared to be killing more people than Covid

Unexplained excess deaths outstrip those from virus as medics call figures ‘terrifying’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/18/lockdown-effects-feared-killing-people-covid/

Hate to say I told you so... :coffee:

Those two doctors were run off social media and had their practices targeted for stating the obvious. It was all discussed here on this forum with the usual suspects chiming in to laugh at the "conspiracy theorists".

Wouldn't in the least bit surprise me if the same wankers now piled in with, "Duh, everyone knows this is obvious."

mandela8

19-08-2022, 03:39 PM

Xhaka Can’t

19-08-2022, 03:39 PM

The story is behind a paywall.

Of a mainstream media outlet. So no doubt NQ thinks it’s a load of shit and is about to stick up on masks and hazmat suits for the winter.

Letters

19-08-2022, 03:56 PM

Lockdown effects feared to be killing more people than Covid

Unexplained excess deaths outstrip those from virus as medics call figures ‘terrifying’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/08/18/lockdown-effects-feared-killing-people-covid/

Hate to say I told you so... :coffee:
Yeah, you sure told us. Everyone else was right behind lockdown and thought we should all hide under our beds but you uniquely had the foresight that we all lacked.

Except, no, if you look at the chat in this thread at the time pretty much everyone thought lockdown was bullshit and a massive overreaction. Top post of this page for example from me
http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=4687&page=254
But that was the general sentiment from most people on here.

The Wengerbabies

19-08-2022, 04:00 PM

Covid-19: 'Very rare' vaccine complications led to Alston man's death

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-62590403

This just means its working!

The Wengerbabies

19-08-2022, 04:00 PM

The Wengerbabies

19-08-2022, 04:01 PM

The story is behind a paywall.

Of a mainstream media outlet. So no doubt NQ thinks it’s a load of shit and is about to stick up on masks and hazmat suits for the winter.

Non-paywall article https://www.thesun.co.uk/health/19555734/lockdowns-killing-more-people-than-covid/

Letters

19-08-2022, 04:03 PM

Naw reading the thread but all throughout Covid I thought the lockdowns done more harm than good. They were absolutely ridiculous.

I'm a huge proponent of the vaccine for the vulnerable, have had 2 doses myself (although I only took them to satisfy travel requirements) so in no way an demented anti vaxxer...but the lockdowns were a fuckin abomination and moat of society fell into some bootlicking 'the stricter the restrictions the better...' mentality.

Pretty much everyone thought that. It's all here in this thread. Wengerbabies is now pretending he was uniquely prescient about that.
My take is and always has been that it was a situation which required a response, but locking down the entire population and economy was the wrong response which always felt like it could do more harm than good. I think most people felt that way - obviously you had some extremes, on one end people who thought we should all be hiding under our beds, on the other people who felt there was nothing to see here and we should just all get on with it.

mandela8

19-08-2022, 04:17 PM

Pretty much everyone thought that. It's all here in this thread. Wengerbabies is now pretending he was uniquely prescient about that.
My take is and always has been that it was a situation which required a response, but locking down the entire population and economy was the wrong response which always felt like it could do more harm than good. I think most people felt that way - obviously you had some extremes, on one end people who thought we should all be hiding under our beds, on the other people who felt there was nothing to see here and we should just all get on with it.

Hairy muff

HCZ_Reborn

19-08-2022, 04:18 PM

My feeling is that the lockdowns were often arbitrary, but ultimately the reason for them was simply protecting a health system which is already close to full capacity from spilling over. The absence of a lockdown would not have assumedly put any of us at higher risk but there are often knock on effects such as the lack of availability of other medical treatment could have had an indirect effect if even more wards are full of geriatrics, people with autoimmune conditions and people who are one subway lunch away from a fatal coronary even before Covid.
That was the issue, the NHS was set up to ration healthcare…and even now we see doctors either reluctant or even outright refusing to make referrals for early cancer detection screenings….but I don’t want to go off track onto a whole spiel about the health service.
Some people as they always do love to politicise certain things and therefore you had the so-called liberals being the good citizen and even going as far as to use social media to accuse people of mass murder from stepping outside their door.
Equally you have tiresome muppets like Jeremy Corbyn’s older brother

The police were an absolute joke during the early parts of the first lockdown from trying to shame people who took long drives to go for long walks in open spaces (the horror!) using drones to actually checking people’s shopping to see if they were buying necessary items. I think without some good healthy skepticism that kind of shit would have continued because you know the police have absolutely no sense of proportionality when it comes to stuff like this.

I think ultimately it was the young who were shafted the most in terms of both education and socialising…they were being asked to sacrifice with the promise of even more shafting down the line.

Niall_Quinn

19-08-2022, 04:52 PM

The story is behind a paywall.

Of a mainstream media outlet. So no doubt NQ thinks it’s a load of shit and is about to stick up on masks and hazmat suits for the winter.

You can find out what I think by reading what I said at the time.

Xhaka Can’t

19-08-2022, 04:58 PM

You can find out what I think by reading what I said at the time.

About the article? You said nothing.

Also, when Trump is interviewed on CNN and he answers a question, is what he says ‘fake news’?

Or does your head just explode?

Niall_Quinn

19-08-2022, 05:00 PM

About the article? You said nothing.

Also, when Trump is interviewed on CNN and he answers a question, is what he says ‘fake news’?

Or does your head just explode?

I don't watch CNN.

I'm not interested in articles about obvious things two years after the event. The interest I expressed was for doctors (experts) who said all this at the start and were run out of town. That interests me.

Xhaka Can’t

19-08-2022, 05:07 PM

You have seen him speaking on CNN, even if you don’t watch it.

Are those doctors no longer practicing - you mention they were run out of town.

Where to?

Globalgunner

20-08-2022, 02:27 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyQjFKJIcaQ&ab_channel=88.1FMOtaki

The Wengerbabies

28-08-2022, 04:57 AM

It's Trumps vaccine again folks

https://i.ibb.co/mqtwjw8/Screenshot-from-2022-08-28-05-56-49.png

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/08/go-far-left-mainstream-media-blame-trump-vaccine-vax-dangers-come-light/

The Wengerbabies

29-09-2022, 06:51 PM

New study confirms that COVID-19 vaccines can temporarily affect menstruation

https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Wellness/study-confirms-covid-19-vaccines-temporarily-affect-menstruation/story?id=90639903

I thought they debunked this months ago? It's almost as if long term data is important. Wonder what else they find out?

The Wengerbabies

08-10-2022, 07:24 AM

The Wengerbabies

08-10-2022, 07:10 PM

:tumbleweed:

The Wengerbabies

09-10-2022, 04:28 PM

Covid booster jab crisis with cases soaring as elderly REFUSE vital vaccination

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/health/how-elderly-driving-surge-covid-28183210

People waking up to the fact they got duped?

Letters

10-10-2022, 09:55 AM

Today, State Surgeon General Dr. Joseph A. Ladapo has announced new guidance regarding mRNA vaccines.

This analysis found that there is an 84% increase in the relative incidence of cardiac-related death among males 18-39 years old within 28 days following mRNA vaccination.

https://www.floridahealth.gov/newsroom/2022/10/20220512-guidance-mrna-covid19-vaccine.pr.html

Safe and EffectiveTM

Struggling to find the actual source for this. But I did see something where someone claimed this study has not been peer reviewed and lacks the detail to know what was done and whether the conclusions are valid.
Certainly one they should be gathering more data about.

Niall_Quinn

10-10-2022, 07:10 PM

Struggling to find the actual source for this. But I did see something where someone claimed this study has not been peer reviewed and lacks the detail to know what was done and whether the conclusions are valid.
Certainly one they should be gathering more data about.

Why?

Why should one certainly be gathering the data? It has already been given to hundreds of millions of people, multiple times in many cases. Why should one certainly be gathering data after the fact? If they couldn't be bothered beforehand, what do you think the same people who pushed it are going to find when they do "peer" reviewed studies? It's all going to turn out fine, isn't it? Wouldn't it just be a waste of time and effort for one to certainly gather the data, especially in light of how forgiving the establishment has been, this far, in regards to experimental pharmaceuticals?

I think we should just keep pumping the stuff into as many people as possible, including kids who have a 0.000000000000000% chance of dying from covid. That would be the scientific thing to do, in terms of modern science. One certainly wouldn't want to undermine the new science.

Letters

14-10-2022, 03:07 PM

Why should one certainly be gathering the data?
Because that's how you make decisions.

If they couldn't be bothered beforehand
They did gather data beforehand. They did trials. But obviously when a vaccine is rolled out that will yield more data, which should be constantly reviewed and analysed.

Globalgunner

17-10-2022, 06:56 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh4Zix87kFo&ab_channel=NeilOliver

Are we starting to get a clue yet?

17-10-2022, 07:29 AM

Neil Oliver! :haha:

Letters

17-10-2022, 07:43 AM

https://i.ibb.co/HKsKYb1/Drake-Covid.jpg

Globalgunner

17-10-2022, 11:30 AM

Neil Oliver! :haha:

This from a country led by Liz Truss

As ever, forget the message. Just attack the messenger.

last thing to happen is to admit you've been fooled. We expect that

17-10-2022, 12:06 PM

If the messenger has a LOOOOOOONG reputation for being wrong and a dickhead and a fud and an idiot and a fucking moron and a grifter, yeah, I'll attack the messenger.

He's always been wrong and he's wrong now. And so are you.

Xhaka Can’t

17-10-2022, 12:55 PM

This from a country led by Liz Truss

As ever, forget the message. Just attack the messenger.

last thing to happen is to admit you've been fooled. We expect that

Who is “we”?

Is it a committee of brainwashed fuckwits operating the Globalgunner GW account?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mac76

17-10-2022, 12:55 PM

anyway talk about still fighting the last war, if no-one's noticed this country is going through a massive tory shi*tshow, it's that we need to worry about

Letters

17-10-2022, 01:56 PM

If the messenger has a LOOOOOOONG reputation for being wrong and a dickhead and a fud and an idiot and a fucking moron and a grifter, yeah, I'll attack the messenger.
Attacking the messenger :sulk:

Well...unless the messenger is the MSM of course, then go nuts...

mandela8

17-10-2022, 02:54 PM

The Wengerbabies

14-11-2022, 06:58 PM

2022 has had more excess deaths than 2020 and 2021. Interesting. Perhaps injecting 80% of the population with a (largely) needless experimental drug wasn't such a good idea.

Don't worry though it's being swept under the rug so no need to be outraged.

Letters

14-11-2022, 07:50 PM

The Wengerbabies

14-11-2022, 07:54 PM

Source? (Not saying you're wrong, but I'd be interested to look at the data before commenting)

I just read it somewhere a few weeks ago, don't have a source to hand.

Letters

14-11-2022, 08:25 PM

:good: Doesn't look like it's true in the UK at least.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/excessdeathsinenglandandwalesmarch2020tojune2022/2022-09-20

Possibly elsewhere. I think we all knew the pandemic would have an effect longer term because of missed appointments/treatments and diagnoses. I don't know how much that has affected things so far.

The Wengerbabies

15-11-2022, 11:19 AM

Letters

15-11-2022, 11:50 AM

Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks underway

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/myocarditis-covid-vaccine-research-long-term-effects-rcna55666

Just crazy that someone in good health would wilfully take a rushed drug for a disease that is of no consequence to them.

Do you even read the articles you post or do you just look at the headline?

Of the hundreds of millions of Covid vaccine doses given in the U.S. since late 2020, there have been around 1,000 reports of vaccine-related myocarditis or pericarditis in children under age 18, primarily young males, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Most of those who developed the condition have fully recovered

The FDA declined to comment on Pfizer's and Moderna's studies because they are ongoing, but an agency official said the chance of having myocarditis occur following vaccination is "very low."

The condition does not lead to cardiac-related death, the official said, as claimed by Florida's surgeon general last month who cited an unpublished analysis of state data.

"There is no evidence of increased risk of deaths following mRNA vaccines compared to individuals who did not get vaccinated," the official said. "In fact, evidence from well-conducted, peer-reviewed, published studies suggests that the risk of death is higher for unvaccinated individuals for nearly every age group."

The vast majority of cases occur in young men, ages 16 to 24, according to the CDC. The agency did not have data available on the total number of cases in young adults 24 and younger, but it estimates there have been 52.4 cases and 56.3 cases per million doses of Pfizer's and Moderna's vaccines, respectively.
...
Vaccine-associated myocarditis is usually milder than the viral type and most people with the condition make a full recovery, said Dr. Nicola Klein, a vaccine expert at Kaiser Permanente.

15-11-2022, 01:25 PM

Do you even read the articles you post or do you just look at the headline?

These clowns never even do the most cursory research.

The Wengerbabies

18-11-2022, 04:24 PM

G20 Summit promotes international digital vaccine passports for ‘future pandemics’
(https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/g20-summit-promotes-international-digital-vaccine-passports-for-future-pandemics/)

It's just a conspiracy...

Hope you're all keeping up to date with your boosters!

Letters

18-11-2022, 04:31 PM

during “future pandemics.”

:lol:

The conspiracy theory People Like You was peddling was that this stuff was here to stay. I used my "Covid Pass" once, in January. And even then the bloke on the door gave a cursory glance at best, it could have been anyone's. All that stuff is long gone.

The Wengerbabies

26-11-2022, 03:19 AM

https://rumble.com/embed/v1tuifo/?pub=6lp0n

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4zW1rhWG1s

Letters

26-11-2022, 09:12 PM

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking/anti-vaccine-documentary-died-suddenly-wants-you-feel-not-think

The Wengerbabies

27-11-2022, 11:32 PM

https://i.imgur.com/LIRtDDP.jpg

WMUG

28-11-2022, 04:58 PM

I'd be kicking off quietly tutting if there were still lockdowns now.

Doesn't mean they weren't needed back when they were being implemented.

Letters

28-11-2022, 05:44 PM

I'd be kicking off quietly tutting if there were still lockdowns now.

Doesn't mean they weren't needed back when they were being implemented.

There would have to be some very compelling data for anyone to listen if they tried that again.
I’m not convinced they were needed really. Or if they were, they were implemented too late and with too many exceptions to be effective.

WMUG

28-11-2022, 10:15 PM

Niall_Quinn

30-11-2022, 10:29 PM

That last point is the crux I think.

I haven't looked at the data for a while but from what i remember, more people would've died with no lockdown at all, but many fewer would've died if they'd been done earlier.

Total bullshit.

In case you haven't noticed, there's a Coronavirus pandemic happening right now. Hundreds of millions are infected, many ill, some dying. But it's not 2020 - so we treat it like the flu. Which is what it always was.

You must be horribly uninformed if you can reach a conclusion like that. Which just so happens to apologise for the criminals who presided over the first pandemic. Not saying you are in it with them - needs to be said in case the average GW brain donor reads this. All I'm saying is you are a puppet.

Niall_Quinn

30-11-2022, 10:48 PM

There would have to be some very compelling data for anyone to listen if they tried that again.
I’m not convinced they were needed really. Or if they were, they were implemented too late and with too many exceptions to be effective.

What?

So you're not convinced the destruction of the economy and the evisceration of civil liberties was required?

That's good. Me either.

But you WOULD Have been convinced if the authoritarianism was ramped up and rolled out sooner?

What?

Just for shit and giggles, can you do a quick scan of authoritative media and let me know what they think about the latest CDC data that informs us more vaccinated idiots are dying from Covid than sane people. That's compelling in its own way. What have you been told to think about that?

Niall_Quinn

30-11-2022, 10:50 PM

https://i.imgur.com/LIRtDDP.jpg

#theCurrentThing

They blow with the wind and the wind is coming straight out of the arseholes of those who increasingly direct every aspect of their ex-lives.

Niall_Quinn

30-11-2022, 10:54 PM

https://rumble.com/embed/v1tuifo/?pub=6lp0n

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4zW1rhWG1s

Didn't watch the film. But nice to see I still can if I want to. I get to choose. Something the neos can't abide.

Did you see the champions of liberty want to ban Twatter from the App Monopoly? That alone tells you everything about where we are. Agree with the zombies and every door is open. Deviate by 1 degree and you are gone.

Censorship never won. It's like holding back the sea with a few sandbags and a bucket. YouTube is dead but doesn't know it yet.

Letters

01-12-2022, 10:42 AM

What?

So you're not convinced the destruction of the economy and the evisceration of civil liberties was required?

That's good. Me either.

But you WOULD Have been convinced if the authoritarianism was ramped up and rolled out sooner?

What?

I continue to believe this was a situation which required a response. That belief is based on looking at the excess death stats and my conversation with an ICU doctor which I have relayed on here multiple times. From those two things it seems clear to me that this wasn't just a normal flu - the data tells me that, someone I know who was working on the front line tells me that. But did it require lockdowns, was that the right response?
Well, many countries thought so. Some, like Australia and China, went completely mental and locked down hard. Others, like Brazil, took more of a "la la la not happening" approach. I would note that Australia's deaths/million stats are much better than Brazil's. You might say I'm cherry picking, which would be fair. I honestly don't know if there's a clear correlation between "hardness" of lockdown and death stats. But this is all complicated by lots of other differences between countries - age profile of the population, population density, maturity of the health services, vaccine rollouts. Then there's cultural differences which might make some populations more compliant and willing to follow restrictions. This is complicated, there will be shelves of books written about this, there will be years and years of crunching data and analysing what happened and, hopefully, learning lessons. Sceptical about the last of those things, working in the Public Sector we often have "lessons learned" sessions and rarely actually learn any.

But one other difference is when lockdowns were implemented. Australia were locking down hard the minute someone coughed. Over here it seemed that Boris was keen to go down the herd immunity route, then realised that things were getting out of hand so locked down but my view is it was too late by then and there were too many exceptions. And, as you noted, a lot of people weren't complying. It was the worst of both worlds, it hammered the economy, it hit everyone's mental hearth and I'm not sure it was that effective in reducing deaths. I don't have a super strong feeling about this but my gut feeling is a hard, early lockdown would have been more effective and wouldn't have had to last as long.

Just for shit and giggles, can you do a quick scan of authoritative media and let me know what they think about the latest CDC data that informs us more vaccinated idiots are dying from Covid than sane people. That's compelling in its own way.
To be honest, I've long since stopped looking at Covid data. But given that pretty much all the old and vulnerable people have been vaccinated, and most of the unvaccinated are young, healthy people. It's not a huge revelation that more of the former would die from Covid than the latter. TL;DR, you are not comparing two equivalent populations. But if there's any specific data I can look at then feel free to provide a link.
I don't know what the media are saying about it, if anything. Or is that your point? I mean just generally Covid seems to have fallen off the front pages. That's what happens with an ongoing situation, particularly when the worst is over as it seems to be with Covid.

What have you been told to think about that?
:lol: You do this sort of thing quite a lot. You did it recently with the stuff going on at Twitter with Musk.
The media aren't telling me what to think, they're just reporting what's happening. I draw my own conclusions.
We all have biases which affect what we think about things of course, you coming to a different opinion about things to you doesn't make you the "independent thinker".

The Wengerbabies

01-12-2022, 09:58 PM

Chris Whitty warns Britain faces 'prolonged period' of excess deaths NOT caused by Covid due to collateral effects of lockdown (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11491871/Chris-Whitty-warns-Britain-faces-prolonged-period-excess-deaths.html)

What a right wing conspiracy nut this guy is

The Wengerbabies

27-01-2023, 02:16 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5n7RRKgDog&t=49s

The Wengerbabies

27-01-2023, 05:16 AM

Meanwhile the

Safe

The Office of National Statistics said it had registered 17,381 deaths in England and Wales in the week ended Friday, January 13. That figure is about 20 percent more than the five-year average - and 30 percent more than longer-term averages - for the year’s second week.
Only about 650 of the deaths had Covid as an underlying cause, the government said, so most of the excess was not related to Covid.
The British data confirms recent trends all over Western Europe, including the Netherlands and Switzerland.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglan dandwales

and

Effective

The British government had data in October showing nearly identical rates of Covid hospitalizations in vaccinated and unvaccinated people during the summer 2022 Omicron wave.
In some age and risk groups, vaccinated people had higher rates of hospitalization than the unjabbed. For example, healthy 40 to 49-year-olds were more likely to be hospitalized with severe Covid if they had received one or two jabs than none.
The government quietly released the figures today, in an appendix to a report from its advisory committee on vaccinations.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1131409/appendix-1-of-jcvi-statement-on-2023-covid-19-vaccination-programme-8-november-2022.pdf

vaccine is to be pulled for the under 50s in the UK https://dailysceptic.org/2023/01/25/u-k-becomes-latest-country-to-ban-covid-boosters-for-under-50s/

Basically saying it's not safe without saying it's not safe.

Letters

27-01-2023, 10:01 AM

Effective
Why did you leave out this bit? :unsure:

Note that the [hospitalisation rates] are crude rates by age and vaccination status and should not be compared with one another to infer vaccine effectiveness. Rates will be affected by previous infections and other differences between groups. For example, those unvaccinated are likely to have had higher prior infection rates than those vaccinated which can reduce recent incidence in this group

Dude, your cherry picking does you no favours. Vaccinated and unvaccinated are not identical populations, you have to be careful when comparing them.

vaccine is to be pulled for the under 50s in the UK
Basically saying it's not safe without saying it's not safe.
Absolutely not what it's saying. The headline is misleading

five to 49 year-olds who are a clinical risk group, live with an immunosuppressed person or are carers have also been offered a booster

So it's like the flu vaccine, they're offering it to oldiewonks AND to younger people who are at risk. You also missed out this bit:

The U.K. will continue to offer the first two doses to over-16s.

So... :shrug:

Letters

30-01-2023, 02:03 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZB6UKdcf5s

30-01-2023, 05:17 PM

Good post.

Niall_Quinn

01-02-2023, 08:19 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZB6UKdcf5s

Wow. You are absolutely beyond redemption.

If you'd have followed this guy for 2 years you'd know exactly why that video you posted is as dishonest as it can ever get. It REALLY WOULD benefit you - on so many levels - to go back and watch every single video he did over 2 years. Then you'd get it.

HE ALMOST NEVER MAKES CONCLUSIONS. He leaves that to you. He "reports" not "opines" on official data. That's it.

There's no point trying to explain this to you. You are obviously way too far gone.

Campbell has highlighted excess deaths BECAUSE THEY EXIST. According to government data. And that's ALL he's pointed out.

Yet the cunt you have posted and the second-hand cunt he reports on - I mean PLEASE - SOME GUY ON YOUTUBE, anyone? He's framing the "debunk" on something Campbell NEVER said. But why would you care, you absolute repeater bastard.

Have you no shame at all?

Niall_Quinn

01-02-2023, 08:19 PM

Good post.

How would you know?

Niall_Quinn

01-02-2023, 08:26 PM

38 reporting countries experiencing excess deaths. FACT.

Use science (not climate "science") to disprove that.

It's A LOT more, but 38 have reported in.

Because of the lockdown. And we ALL know that. The government killed a lot of people, and many more are to die yet.

And the people who supported it. Yes, you are guilty.

But if posting up - SOME GUY FROM YOUTUBE - videos helps ease your conscience - doesn't work for me. You are guilty.

You'd fucking think differently if it was one of yours that had died. But being wankers extraordinaire...

Niall_Quinn

01-02-2023, 08:29 PM

For those who aren't following along, the shill in the shill Letter's video has tried to destroy ACTUAL reported facts by first making the assumption Campbell is solely focusing on heart disease. Then he goes and looks up heart disease statistics, having framed the data. Then he "proves" Campbell is wrong.

What a joke.

Yet Letters just laps t up.

Why not go back to the CUMULATIVE EXCESS DEATHS DATA?

Letters

02-02-2023, 10:25 AM

If you'd have followed this guy for 2 years you'd know exactly why that video you posted is as dishonest as it can ever get.
Ok. Well explain it then. If you have issues with the video I posted then explain what they are and why you dispute his conclusions. You won't, of course.

It REALLY WOULD benefit you - on so many levels - to go back and watch every single video he did over 2 years. Then you'd get it.
HE ALMOST NEVER MAKES CONCLUSIONS. He leaves that to you. He "reports" not "opines" on official data. That's it.
:lol: Oh what bullshit. That really isn't it. I've watched enough of his stuff.
He did another video recently on a Pfizer press release, the release was a response to some online allegations.
The video was one long "I'm not insinuating anything, I'm just asking questions"...nudge nudge, wink wink.
In the video he unveiled a whole box set of conspiracy theories about Pfizer in a "I'm just speculating what they might be responding to" way.
Well if that's speculation then why bring them up? We both know why...

In the video he quoted from their press release but left out bits which provided context - an example, some tests he said they were doing which he declared "terrifying", but he "accidently" left out the very next sentence of the press release which said that these tests were actually required by regulators and that multiple organisations do them, and it explained why they do them.
Isn't it this sort of selective quoting you rail against when the MSM do it? And rightly so.

At the end of the video he even quotes the "The lady doth protest too much" line from Shakspeare ffs. But yeah, he's not drawing any conclusions. He's just asking questions... Fuck off.

And riddle me this, Batman. If all he's doing is reporting on official data and not drawing conclusions then isn't it strange that the comments section is filled with people who all have the same opinion about Covid and vaccines. What a coincidence. I mean, he's just presenting data and asking questions isn't he? That's all he's doing. Behave yourself. You know exactly what he's doing.

Campbell has highlighted excess deaths BECAUSE THEY EXIST. According to government data. And that's ALL he's pointed out.
No it isn't. Why mention the ischemic heart disease figures in Australia then if that's all he's doing?
Why only look at data over a couple of years and and not look at historic data?
Why not dig in to how bad the lack of patient care has been for people with heart disease in the UK during the pandemic.
Why not look at other pandemics and note that excess deaths happened in the wake of those too.

During the pandemic we both agreed that the lack of appointments was going to have an effect - missed treatments, missed diagnoses. It was obvious to both of us that there would be a consequence. But people with a certain agenda are now trying to make a different casual link.

SOME GUY ON YOUTUBE, anyone?
When I pick you up on "SOME GUY ON YOUTUBE" all I'm doing is pointing out that just because someone is "independent" and not associated with any MSM media that doesn't make them right.
Especially if they don't have any particular expertise on the subject matter they're talking about.
There's some good stuff on YouTube and some...less good stuff. And everyone can find channels which pander to their own biases. I could accuse you of doing that, you could accuse me of doing the same. I suspect to an extent we are both right. But in your world things in the MSM are wrong because they are mainstream. And things on YouTube (which just happen to pander to your worldview) are valid because they are "independent". Although they aren't of course, they have their biases too. And they have an interest in clicks and views which means if they find a type of video which presents a certain worldview is popular then they will have a bias towards making more of them.

He's framing the "debunk" on something Campbell NEVER said.

Have you seen that thing about this sentence:
"I never said she stole my money"
You can make it mean 7 different things depending on which word you stress,
You've stressed the wrong word above. Try this: "He's framing the "debunk" on something Campbell never SAID".

There, that's better. So yeah, you're technically correct but in a completely pointless way. He has a way of not "saying" things but implying and insinuating them so clearly that every one of his followers gets the same message loud and clear.

But why would you care, you absolute repeater bastard.
You do understand that you're a repeater too, right? You flatter yourself to believe that you're an "independent thinker". Just because you believe and repeat different people, that doesn't make you special.
Your biases and worldview affect what you believe and how you interpret data and what you repeat just as much as mine do.

Letters

02-02-2023, 10:29 AM

And the people who supported it. Yes, you are guilty.
And who was that? Basically everyone on here was calling bullshit on the extended lockdown.
The video I posted isn't denying there are excess deaths, it's noting that these have historically followed other pandemics. And it's calling bullshit on the insinuations in Campbell's video about the cause.
Spare me the "he never SAID...", it's clear what Campbell's agenda is.

FootieJohn909

20-02-2023, 11:54 AM

I am from the future, and yes things will change. Unless your in china

Letters

20-02-2023, 11:59 AM

*you're.

Do they not teach grammar in the future?

The Wengerbabies

28-02-2023, 02:06 PM

10 myths told by COVID experts — and now debunked

https://nypost.com/2023/02/27/10-myt...-now-debunked/

Misinformation #1: Natural Immunity offers little protection compared to Vaccinated Immunity

Misinformation #2: Masks prevent COVID transmission

Misinformation #3: School closures reduce COVID transmission

Misinformation #4: Myocarditis from the vaccine is less common than from the infection

Misinformation #5: Young people benefit from a vaccine booster

Misinformation #6: Vaccine mandates increased vaccination rates

Misinformation #7: Covid originating from the Wuhan Lab is a conspiracy theory

Misinformation #8: It was important to get the 2nd vaccine dose 3 or 4 weeks after the 1st dose

Misinformation #9: Data on the bivalent vaccine is “crystal clear”

Misinformation #10: One in five people get long COVID

Niall_Quinn

04-03-2023, 07:41 PM

And the virus came from a mammal being sold in a seafood market, rather than the very lab that engineered the very same virus. Funded by American cash. As per the admitted documentation.

All conspiracy theories, regardless of the facts.

You won't ever convince these people. They don't have the capacity to think beyond the latest "news" cycle.

Niall_Quinn

04-03-2023, 07:43 PM

I am from the future, and yes things will change. Unless your in china

FootieJon! Is that you? What are you doing hanging out in this shit neck of time?

Niall_Quinn

04-03-2023, 07:44 PM

And who was that? Basically everyone on here was calling bullshit on the extended lockdown.
The video I posted isn't denying there are excess deaths, it's noting that these have historically followed other pandemics. And it's calling bullshit on the insinuations in Campbell's video about the cause.
Spare me the "he never SAID...", it's clear what Campbell's agenda is.

Everyone knows.

Until they know the next thing.

All depends on what's being sold at the time.

All we know for sure is you are buying.

Niall_Quinn

04-03-2023, 07:46 PM

If you actually took the time to trace Campbell's journey over the last 3 years you'd discover something profound. But you jump in at the end with your borrowed opinion. It's not even worth being embarrassed on your behalf because you don't have the capacity or inclination to equip yourself with knowledge.

The Wengerbabies

05-03-2023, 07:27 PM

https://i.ibb.co/dcLtdt8/hancockvariant.png

"When do we deploy the new variant?"

So it turns out the conspiracy theorists were right again and they were just making all this crap up to control us.

This is the "variant" that led to the Jan 2021 lockdown, that lasted til the summer and "cancelled Christmas 2020". I knew then it was bullshit and this is when I fled to Mexico.

Anything to say Letters?

Letters

06-03-2023, 09:42 AM

"When do we deploy the new variant?"

So it turns out the conspiracy theorists were right again and they were just making all this crap up to control us.
No. They were trying to scare people into complying with the restrictions. Restrictions that pretty much everyone was calling bullshit on.
Including me. Look back at this thread at the time.

And OK, let's say this was all about control...what, just for 2 years? For decades "they" have pretty much let us get on with our lives then for 2 years they randomly decided to micro-manage every aspect of our lives (by coincidence at the same time that more or less every other country decided to, no matter what their underlying politics). And then they decided to stop doing that. Why?

Dude. They were dealing with "a situation". They were buggering it up of course, they're incompetent. That is not controversial.
But the "conspiracy theorists" - including you - were saying the restrictions and lockdowns were here to stay. That was always bullshit and has been proven to be bullshit.

The Wengerbabies

06-03-2023, 05:55 PM

Imagine still defending them when their hatred for you is laid bare right in front of you eyes.

Letters

06-03-2023, 07:15 PM

Imagine still defending them when their hatred for you is laid bare right in front of you eyes.

Yes. Me saying they buggered up the response to the pandemic because they’re incompetent is clearly a staunch defence. Try reading this:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/09/judge-peter-bowers-david-mitchell

And once more for the cheap seats, if it was all about control then why did they only want to control us for 2 years? As part of your assertion that it was about control you claimed the restrictions were here to stay. Well…they weren’t, were they? So… :shrug:

Mac76

07-03-2023, 10:22 AM

Yes. Me saying they buggered up the response to the pandemic because they’re incompetent is clearly a staunch defence. Try reading this:

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/dec/09/judge-peter-bowers-david-mitchell

And once more for the cheap seats, if it was all about control then why did they only want to control us for 2 years? As part of your assertion that it was about control you claimed the restrictions were here to stay. Well…they weren’t, were they? So… :shrug:

exactly we never did have the army on the streets despite "certain people" insisting it was an inevitability

the people we have in power simply don't have the strategic ability to think more than one move ahead, there is no plan, they are simply imposing their own prejudices and right-wing views upon the country aided and abetted by a howliing right-wing media - they know much more about what they are against than what they are for

Letters

07-03-2023, 11:37 AM

Ollie the Optimist

07-03-2023, 07:32 PM

Right. They're incompetent, they're self-serving, they're corrupt. And those things mean they completely buggered up the response to the pandemic and used it to feather their nests.

But are they raging authoritarians looking to control every aspect of our life and oppress us? Well if they are they're doing a bloody awful job of it.
Right in the peak of the pandemic NQ observed people going about their daily lives blithely ignoring the restrictions. Were all those people rounded up in to camps? Are they now all in prison?

The restrictions were a response to a situation. When the situation changed so did the restrictions. We never had curfews or checkpoints, we weren't under marshall law. And now all the restrictions have been lifted. Pointing all that out doesn't mean I'm defending them to the hilt.

He was also arguing for lockdown back then…

This is one last effort to persuade the alarming number of selfish twats we seem to have in this country to stay at home, spelling it out for them because they are likely thick as pigshit. And to get the last few sods off the hook who are being forced to go to work by arsehole bosses. Honestly, clothes and electronics retailers?

So sure, it's unenforceable, and in fact one of the first responses was from the arse covering police chief who pretty much said he couldn't do it. My fear is Boris didn't explicitly say, "Don't go to the seaside." So plenty still won't get it.

I'd be the first on the street chucking stuff if I was confident this was some prelude to a police state. But who can genuinely say they are confident of that right now? And who wants to take the chance with people's lives? If people can't cooperate at a time like this then there's no time when you can rely on them. It's like some cunt having a disco during the blackout. Only worse, because in this case a lot of these cunts are immune to their houses getting bombed and it's the neighbours who get it.

It's a good thing that we live in a country where the government is even concerned about liberty at a time like this. We don't want to wake up in a Chinese style afterlife where we're tagged and tracked and shoved around at gunpoint. But these selfish bastards who are out and about for kicks are making it more likely the outcome of this will be failure in every way.

Letters

08-03-2023, 11:53 AM

He was also arguing for lockdown back then…

I mean, to be fair all of us changed our opinions on multiple things during the pandemic as events unfolded and new data emerged. But these bits of his message are interesting:

'd be the first on the street chucking stuff if I was confident this was some prelude to a police state. But who can genuinely say they are confident of that right now?

And

t's a good thing that we live in a country where the government is even concerned about liberty at a time like this. We don't want to wake up in a Chinese style afterlife where we're tagged and tracked and shoved around at gunpoint.

So at the time he was pretty confident that the restrictions weren't the start of a descent into an authoritarian nightmare.
But then when the restrictions persisted he started to fall down various conspiracy theory rabbit holes, and coupled with his natural suspicion of authority it led him to predictions of curfews and checkpoints, the army on the streets, marshal law. The wild predictions of what would become of the non-vaccinated.

Now, none of us know what's going to happen of course, But the interesting thing is that even though none of that happened - in fact, the opposite did, the restrictions have now all been lifted. But despite that NQ remains convinced he was right about it all. It's very strange. He absolutely refuses to concede he got these things wrong and seems unable to think about why, even though I've told him why.

Letters

05-05-2023, 01:42 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65499929

We made it! :lol:

Niall_Quinn

05-05-2023, 02:35 PM

I mean, to be fair all of us changed our opinions on multiple things during the pandemic as events unfolded and new data emerged. But these bits of his message are interesting:

And

So at the time he was pretty confident that the restrictions weren't the start of a descent into an authoritarian nightmare.
But then when the restrictions persisted he started to fall down various conspiracy theory rabbit holes, and coupled with his natural suspicion of authority it led him to predictions of curfews and checkpoints, the army on the streets, marshal law. The wild predictions of what would become of the non-vaccinated.

Now, none of us know what's going to happen of course, But the interesting thing is that even though none of that happened - in fact, the opposite did, the restrictions have now all been lifted. But despite that NQ remains convinced he was right about it all. It's very strange. He absolutely refuses to concede he got these things wrong and seems unable to think about why, even though I've told him why.

I followed science. So did Boris in the beginning.

Let's say Covid really had been dangerous and had the capacity to kill a swathe of the population. We already had well established plans in place to deal with that. This wasn't the first pandemic in history.

It was when these plans were torn up and replaced with another set of plans that looked strangely familiar that I started with my conspiracy theories. Like my bullshit on a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent infection or transmission. You probably haven't been keeping up to date with the ongoing fallout from these "vaccines" I suppose. It really is the most terrible of scandals but you probably haven't seen what happens to people when they use official data to point this out. Science sometimes, other times whatever. Still, my conspiracy theory tallies quite neatly with that which has been said but strangely under-reported.

As for the army, it was on the streets the whole time it turns out. 14 branches of it, driving project fear. Admirably supported by the massed ranks of drums and pipers in places like the BBC. Quietly, quietly the rolling death toll has faded from the memory, while the latest and ongoing death toll warrants no mention. Another conspiracy theory, as the CIA (who coined the term) would say.

The checkpoints? Well we were talking about them just today. Just because it looks like China doesn't mean it's actually China, right? And because the prison has no bars it can't be a prison. If you don't like it just don't drive, don't own private property and don't eat the unlabelled GM foods being endorsed by HRH while farms are being shut down and cattle and poultry killed off. Same HRH that carries his own private organic food stock when he travels. On his private jet. No, I'm thinking our leaders' intentions didn't change at all. They are still the same lovable crowd that long reigned over us prior to the pandemic bonanza and the impending climate (what shall we call it) "rescue"?

Yeah. We're down here, they're up there and there's nothing to see here. All the unfortunate coincidences that emerged entirely by accident, entirely in line with what has actually been written down and announced publicly. Who would waste time making conspiracy theories out of facts? If you do actually follow the science and append a little common sense for good measure, you don't need conspiracy theories. Not when it's not even a conspiracy any more but policy, right out in the open.

We should drop all conspiracy theories really. Including the daddy of them all about the world ending any day now. Because science covers that too.

Niall_Quinn

05-05-2023, 02:37 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65499929

We made it! :lol:

They managed it so well. Probably why they are about to gain supra-national powers that will make it mandatory for Sweden to shut the fuck up and do what it's told.

The Ethiopian hustler done good. Played, my son.

Letters

05-05-2023, 04:15 PM

I followed science.
There's a pretty high correlation between what you accept as good science and what fits your worldview though.
Now I'm not saying you're unique in that regard, but come on dude. Whether you accept scientific evidence does depend on whether it matches your views.

Let's say Covid really had been dangerous and had the capacity to kill a swathe of the population.
It seems like it was pretty dangerous for certain groups. For the majority I'd agree it was a nothing burger and extended lockdowns was the wrong thing to do.

We already had well established plans in place to deal with that. This wasn't the first pandemic in history.
Did we, though? It was the first proper global pandemic for a century and in that time a lot has changed in medical science and in the world generally. We didn't, for example, have a global travel network a century ago which could efficiently transport people (and therefore any pathogens they might be carrying) around the world.

Like my bullshit on a "vaccine" that doesn't prevent infection or transmission.
That isn't what vaccines do. They prepare the immune system for infection.

You probably haven't been keeping up to date with the ongoing fallout from these "vaccines" I suppose.
Well, I've heard a lot of claim and counter claim about this. I know that all cause mortality is up since the end of the pandemic but that happened after the one a century ago too.
This time it was obvious that missed appointments and diagnoses was going to take a toll, that has to be a factor.

As for the army, it was on the streets the whole time it turns out.
They must have been in camo, I didn't see them. But your claim at the time was that the army going door to door in Birmingham was "to get us used to" the presence of the army on the streets.

The checkpoints? Well we were talking about them just today. Just because it looks like China doesn't mean it's actually China, right? And because the prison has no bars it can't be a prison. If you don't like it just don't drive.
Come on dude, that clearly isn't what you were talking about when you talked about checkpoints.

No, I'm thinking our leaders' intentions didn't change at all.
Well, I agree. But their intentions were never to oppress and control us and micro-manage our lives. The Covid restrictions were an attempt to deal with the situation. They made a right bloody hash of it of course, and obviously used the situation to enrich themselves and their mates. Of course. Plus ca change. And I'd accept they might have used it as a cover to put things on the statute books when no-one was looking. But it was never a one way slide into the dystopia you seemed to be imagining. When the situation changed restrictions were lifted. I think I'd agree that happened far too late, but see above about them making a hash of things.

Letters

13-06-2023, 07:49 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65888152

:lol:

:doh:

Niall_Quinn

13-06-2023, 11:07 PM

There's a pretty high correlation between what you accept as good science and what fits your worldview though.
Now I'm not saying you're unique in that regard, but come on dude. Whether you accept scientific evidence does depend on whether it matches your views.

It seems like it was pretty dangerous for certain groups. For the majority I'd agree it was a nothing burger and extended lockdowns was the wrong thing to do.

Did we, though? It was the first proper global pandemic for a century and in that time a lot has changed in medical science and in the world generally. We didn't, for example, have a global travel network a century ago which could efficiently transport people (and therefore any pathogens they might be carrying) around the world.

That isn't what vaccines do. They prepare the immune system for infection.

Well, I've heard a lot of claim and counter claim about this. I know that all cause mortality is up since the end of the pandemic but that happened after the one a century ago too.
This time it was obvious that missed appointments and diagnoses was going to take a toll, that has to be a factor.

They must have been in camo, I didn't see them. But your claim at the time was that the army going door to door in Birmingham was "to get us used to" the presence of the army on the streets.

Come on dude, that clearly isn't what you were talking about when you talked about checkpoints.

Well, I agree. But their intentions were never to oppress and control us and micro-manage our lives. The Covid restrictions were an attempt to deal with the situation. They made a right bloody hash of it of course, and obviously used the situation to enrich themselves and their mates. Of course. Plus ca change. And I'd accept they might have used it as a cover to put things on the statute books when no-one was looking. But it was never a one way slide into the dystopia you seemed to be imagining. When the situation changed restrictions were lifted. I think I'd agree that happened far too late, but see above about them making a hash of things.

Again, your memory. I laid it all out for you. The PCR tests. The masks. The viable treatments as opposed to the hoax vaccine. It's all there if you want to go and educate yourself. Which is exactly what I did when they pandemic struck like a bolt from the blue (planned in advance).

You listen to the propaganda and see if there's anything in there worth listening to, because from time to time even the BBC says something that's accurate. Then you find the genuine experts by studying their track records. Are they for hire? Do they flip according to trends? Do they have shady ties with the corporations and the puppet politicians? All the obvious due diligence. And then, when you find experts that have not been bought, you listen to what they have to say. And consider it. And maybe you have to read a few books or papers to brush up on what they are even talking about, so you get the gist of it at least. Which already takes you to a whole new universe where you won't find a single BBC moron (but you still have to listen to the cunts of course, all that panting while they take it up the arse).

And you do that many times until you can EASILY build a picture of the reality. And when you have a grasp of actual science, rater than "The Science", you act accordingly.

It's incredibly fucking simple.

So, that aside.

YES. It was dangerous for people with specific pre-existing medical conditions, particularly the elderly who were more likely to have developed such conditions in later life. It is entirely (as in 100%) HARMLESS for anybody else. Just like the flu. And the US government knew this way, way in advance. Because they were the ones who developed the virus in the lab in China. This is all now a matter of fact, even if the mainstream media won't report what has been coming out in the US Congress daily. There is ZERO evidence to suggest the virus originated naturally. And an avalanche of evidence, with all the paperwork and receipts, to demonstrate how the US, in collaboration with China, engineered the virus to do exactly what later transpired, with the media in tow pumping their sewage into every home night after night.

But yes. It definitely WAS dangerous for some people. Which is why the Great Barrington Declaration was presented as a solution. Only to be shot down by a media who then went on to describe Ivermectin as a veterinarian drug.

Which bit aren't you getting? There's enough out there so even the latecomers can play.

And then you go on to talk about DEAD people. Yeah, yeah, come on. There was bound to be collateral damage. Long as it's not me where's the harm?

I am going to get you back on the path of Christianity if it kills me.

As for the control and the oppression. It really is a thing how nothing of significance EVER comes up on this forum from the usual suspects. It's always the trivia. I do check. When the biggest bullshit story in the world happens I think, boy, they'll be lapping that up on GW. And then real stuff happens and it's me and the crickets.

Shit, I'm not bashing you. Almost everyone is disconnected these days. So complacent and so trusting. Like a young girl who just hitched a ride with a violent sex criminal. I wonder what's going to happen? That bloke down the road shouting, "Don't get in the fucking car you dumb bitch!", that's me. The bad guy.

Nothing is connected in most people's minds. Because if it was, you'd be able to see it all laid out. And you'd be horrified and terrified. But one thing never leads to another. It's all separate and in the moment. Just a string of remorseless coincidences.

Niall_Quinn

13-06-2023, 11:13 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-65888152

:lol:

:doh:

Yes - BUT SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE!

And there was "The Science"

And there were 200 million people dying on the BBC every 15 minutes.

We even managed to murder all those old people.

So there were grounds to do other insane stuff too.

Nice though that the BBC has managed to find a break in its cheerleading to cover its arse by pretending it wasn't the #1 fanboy of the lockdowns.

Mac76

13-06-2023, 11:36 PM

And there were 200 million people dying on the BBC every 15 minutes.

:police: Warning - this may be an exaggeration...

Letters

14-06-2023, 01:27 PM

Again, your memory. I laid it all out for you.
Yes, you explained how they were gearing up for marshal law. You warned us about the coming curfews and checkpoints. If only we'd listened.
It's nothing to do with memory. You're acting like I didn't respond to any of it and you're still pretending you weren't wrong about your predictions of coming dystopia.

Let's take one of those things. The PCR tests. You said how the inventor claimed they don't work. You then said the WHO admitted that too.
On both occasions it took me 2 minutes to find that the actual message in both cases was "RTFM". IF you do too many cycles then it can lead to false positives.
Saying the tests need to be used correctly is NOT the same as saying they don't work.

And this is your problem. You are awful at analysing information and data and drawing conclusions from it. It's all so coloured by your world-view. Now, that's true for all of us of course, but your worldview is pretty extreme. You always think "they" are up to something. That's how you see an article on the WHO website saying PCN tests need to be used properly and end up claiming they are admitting they didn't work. And ultimately it's how you got to the hysterical predictions you made during the pandemic.

It's all there if you want to go and educate yourself. Which is exactly what I did when they pandemic struck like a bolt from the blue.
It's all where? I mean, there's a lot of information out there isn't there? The tricky bit these days is working out which is true.
I mean, you sneer at people like me for letting the BBC "tell me how to think".
You're pretty happy to let Jimmy Dore and John Campbell do that. I explained in some detail how the former dishonestly cherry picked from an article in one video and at one point misquoted it completely to make it sound like the exact opposite of what it actually said. I explained how the latter omitted facts to draw conclusions which just didn't stack up if you looked at the full dataset. It all just bounced off you.
Your definition of propaganda is "things you don't agree with". I've posted YouTube videos on climate science and vaccines and you dismissed them as propaganda. For who? To what end? They're just private individuals.
But they didn't say what you wanted them to say, so you dismissed them as propaganda.

And you do that many times until you can EASILY build a picture of the reality.
See. The thing about that is the preceding paragraph did actually make some sense. But I've noted some of the places your picture of reality led you to. And it didn't match the actual reality.
So your continued confidence in your abilities as a wide sage who can see clearly where all this is heading baffles me. I see no effort at introspection. You can't even admit you were wrong about things, let alone consider why.

YES. It was dangerous for people with specific pre-existing medical conditions, particularly the elderly who were more likely to have developed such conditions in later life.
Correct. But that is a significant percentage of the population in developed countries. So yes, I do think that SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE. I have related many times the conversation I had with an ICU doctor. This was not a normal situation. But the SOMETHING wasn't long, extended lockdowns. You aren't pretending you uniquely saw that at the time, are you? We were all calling bullshit on it.
In the following paragraph you make a load of claims but like I said you've done that before and on cross checking the source I've found your claims to be at odds with the reality.

I am going to get you back on the path of Christianity if it kills me.
You have repeatedly shown you don't know what path that is. Literally yesterday you were scoffing at the idea that a Christian could believe something which the Bible says in more than one place. So... :shrug:

Shit, I'm not bashing you.
Likewise. I'm just trying to get you to see that you're not the one who knows "what's going on". I mean, maybe none of us really do. But your worldview has led you to make demonstrably false claims and make demonstrably false predictions. I'm just gently suggesting you consider that you're not the one who can see it "all laid out". If you were then you wouldn't be predicting a slide into a dystopia when the opposite happened.

Come on, dude. Work with me. There was no marshal law, there were no checkpoints or curfews.
I mean, some of those things did happen elsewhere but the context of your posts was clearly about what would happen here.
Isn't it worth considering that you were wrong about those things and thinking about why?