Brexit - would you change your 2016 vote

[Ollie the Optimist]

I suppose this probably aimed more at leave voters rather than remainers as suspect any who change votes, will be leavers rather than remainers.

If there was a referendum tomorrow, i would probably switch to remain but not because i think the reasons i voted leave in 2016 are wrong, but rather the incompetent idiots who took over have screwed it up so badly.

Personally i still think leaving would be the right thing to do, my concerns in 2016 were that the EU was becoming to big, wanted to be a United States of Europe etc which Junker previously said was his aim. I dont think that is the right thing to be a part of.

That’s not to say the EU is a bad thing, they have done some good things but i think they are trying to reach too far. The countries forming the EU are too diverse for it to really work in my opinion. Just look at the Euro and how different Germany & Greece are and the problems that created. Factors like an EU army are also a concern, the old question of why does a trading block need an army springs to mind.

There are other reasons where they want to move away from countries having a veto and famously ignored Cameron using his veto in 2012 which is not a good sign.

Of course, these are old arguments given we have heard them for several years now but i think are still reasonably valid. I honestly expected Cameron to stay after the referendum and thought he would have been able to to deliver a reasonable compromise so we could leave. We had heard people like Farage or Carswell praise Norway/Switzerland models so if people had got behind those early on, using their own words against them, the betrayal narrative etc might not have got traction and we could have a reasonable exit agreement.

I dont see any benefits to a WTO deal, and these stupid arguments from people like Rees Mogg or Boris about not compromising are stupid. Every trade deal is a compromise. As David Gauke said yesterday in an interview, if you refuse to compromise in any trade deal then there wont be any deals.

This comes back to the question in the title, would i change my vote. Yes but only because I’ve seen what happened when the idiots took over not because i think the reasons i voted leave in the first place are wrong.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wouldn't change anything. I didn't vote and would never willingly legitimise such a process. I was momentarily tempted at one point, given the gravity of the issue. But you can't get a little bit pregnant. It suits my interests that more than half the mob voted to halt further EU integration, but it's a small relief in a much bigger battle. The real question being put to the British people was, a) Do you want to be dictated to by a small group of self-interested pricks that you stand a limited chance of removing from power, b) Do you want to be dictated to by a large group of self-interested pricks that you stand no chance of removing from power? The former is the better of two highly undesirable options.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I’ve changed my mind to the extent that I just want this to end.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I’ve changed my mind to the extent that I just want this to end.

:gp:

[GP]

I haven't changed my mind.

It was a stupid idea then, it's looks even worse now.

[Niall_Quinn]

I’ve changed my mind to the extent that I just want this to end.

Nobody even cares any more, except those who stood to gain one way or another. And that ain't the people, one way or another. Best that can happen now is no deal, so at least a principle can been achieved. But it won't make a blind bit of difference to Dick and Jane on the ground. Covid taught us that. We have much bigger fights than Brexit to attend to. And we won't.

[Letters]

Anyone have any thoughts about who is being unreasonable in the negotiations?
What is preventing a deal happening?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Both sides have been unreasonable at times imo.

It appears now that only thing stopping a deal is fishing rights which is fucking stupid. The french are saying that they must have the same rights to our waters as they have now or they will not agree to a deal. Well on the 1st January in a no deal, they lose all rights to our waters and any fishing in them will be illegal so face arrest etc etc.

On our side, we seem to willing to have a no deal to protect an industry that produces less to GDP then Harrods does.

[Letters]

I must admit I haven't looked into this in any detail, I'm sick of the whole thing.
Aren't we asking for frictionless trade like we have now.
And they're asking for fishing rights in exchange which, as you say, is such a tiny piece of our economy as to render it a stupid sticking point apart from the "principle".

They have no right to fish in our waters if we're not in the EU but we have no right to frictionless trade if we're not, so... :shrug:

It's probably a bit more complicated than that, but I was reading something along those lines.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Both sides have been unreasonable at times imo.

It appears now that only thing stopping a deal is fishing rights which is fucking stupid. The french are saying that they must have the same rights to our waters as they have now or they will not agree to a deal. Well on the 1st January in a no deal, they lose all rights to our waters and any fishing in them will be illegal so face arrest etc etc.

On our side, we seem to willing to have a no deal to protect an industry that produces less to GDP then Harrods does.

We’ve moved beyond any economic rationale, to pure politics.

It is unlikely to end well.

[GP]

Under even the slightest scrutiny, there never was any economic rationale.

[Coney]

Under even the slightest scrutiny, there never was any economic rationale.

:gp: Definitely.

Economics and sovereignty were never an issue. The claims by the brexit campaign in this was bogus.

1. The EU has NEVER made any laws in the UK. Only parliament could do that. Laws relating to the EU were those needed to cover agreements with the other EU countries. If we did not like them, we had a right of veto. If we now wish to trade with the EU, it will be on their terms. The change with Brexit (assuming a deal) is that we continue trading with the EU as before, but we no longer have any say or veto over future rules.

2. Immigration was never an issue. We were not part of the shengen arrangement so we did not have to allow the same kind of movement as most of the other EU countries

3. Turkey in the EU causing them all to come to the UK. See above - we have the right of veto, we could say they could only be partial member without the right of them to come to the UK. (In any case, Germany has a significant Turkish community from the 1970s and earlier - a sort of equivalent to the UK having significant Asian and West Indian communities - so Turks would likely mostly look to Germany for their first choice.)

Lets see how people feel in a few years time as more and more companies move to EU countries. How Wales, who mostly voted against, do when they realise their subsidies from the EU have dried up. etc.

Apart from the details of Brexit, what is also worrying is how, not just in the UK but also the US and many other countries is a massive increase in racism, xenophobia, nationalism, homophobia, etc. Having lived through the 1960s and 1970s where we were passing human rights and equality legislation, marching and protesting against racists and other scum, we seem to have started going backwards. The right are stirring this shit up and it needs to be opposed at all costs. We fought the second world war against people like that - it would be a shame if we ended up heading the same way.

[Niall_Quinn]

When you oppose even a single issue, these crackpots immediately hit you with the race card. You aren't allowed an opinion, they'll have your opinion for you, and in their opinion you're a racist. No other possible explanation. Racists everywhere. Except in the most obvious place, which is staring back at these loons in the mirror.

[Niall_Quinn]

And don't let them or Boris con you on Brexit either. While everyone was arguing about fish, the other 97% of the "deal" was fixed up. This grovelling EU mob will tell you it's by the good grace of a bunch of bureaucrats in some other place that you can have clean air, clean water, food standards, and so on. What they will never speak about, because they are scared to their very core of the concept, is an independent nation of self reliant individuals who instruct their government of public servants, rather than the other way of sprawling super states and unaccountable rulers and nanny handing out permission. That's what Brexit was about. People of free will and balls against a simpering bunch of followers. That's why we're all locked down again, because half the population rejects the very notion of being responsible for their own lives.

You win some, you lose some. For a while freedom pushed forward, but in the ebb and flow tyranny has struck back. And so we go to the next round.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55433410

Boris :bow:

[Ollie the Optimist]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55433410

Boris :bow:

A free trade agreement negotiated in less then a year. Perhaps the easiest deal in history after all :whistle:


Although on a more serious note, Farage seems to be against it which probably means its a reasonable deal.

[GP]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55433410

Boris :bow:

Sounds like he caved on pretty much everything.

[Letters]

Sounds like he caved on pretty much everything.

Weird. Given that “they need us more than we need them”.

[GP]

Weird. Given that “they need us more than we need them”.

Who'da thunk it?

[Ollie the Optimist]

The deal is done.


What is the deal remains to be seen

[Letters]

It’s a Christmas miracle!

[GP]

https://i.imgur.com/KBB4Rj7.jpg

[Ollie the Optimist]

https://i.imgur.com/KBB4Rj7.jpg

So war with Europe in two years time?

[Letters]

The Erasmus thing is a real shame.

[Letters]

Details still not really clear right now but they’ve got the frictionless trade so...maybe he’s actually done a good job here? :o

[GP]

The Erasmus thing is a real shame.

It's just spiteful, really.

[GP]

Details still not really clear right now but they’ve got the frictionless trade so...maybe he’s actually done a good job here? :o

Depends what he's given up for it.

[Ollie the Optimist]

The Erasmus thing is a real shame.

Boris seemed to announce a replacement scheme but not limited to the EU but worldwide. Limited details but if thats the replacement then sticks to their message of worldwide rather than EU focus.

Although i didn’t realise that the UK seemed to contribute more financially to the Erasmus then other EU nations. Might explain why they are briefing this heavily as they need to ask other EU nations to pick up more of the bill.

[Coney]

Details still not really clear right now but they’ve got the frictionless trade so...maybe he’s actually done a good job here? :o

A good job? Frictionless trade with the EU by following existing EU rules which we already did before Brexit, the difference being that we no longer have the right of veto over new rules. In what way is that a good job?

So 'sovereignty' means losing the right to decide on trade rules with the EU, with a penalty of tariffs if we don't play ball. (And the agreement is that if we don't go along with one rule, they can apply the tariffs to anything they like.)

[Coney]

Boris seemed to announce a replacement scheme but not limited to the EU but worldwide. Limited details but if thats the replacement then sticks to their message of worldwide rather than EU focus.

Although i didn’t realise that the UK seemed to contribute more financially to the Erasmus then other EU nations. Might explain why they are briefing this heavily as they need to ask other EU nations to pick up more of the bill.

Even if they want a replacement, we should have stayed with Erasmus until the replacement was worked out.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Even if they want a replacement, we should have stayed with Erasmus until the replacement was worked out.

That’s a fair argument but a different one to original point.

Although it seems that any 2021 Erasmus place agreed before 31st December is still valid, new applications close on 1dt jan. assuming the new scheme is up and running by 2022, guess you could say we did stay with Erasmus until replacement scheme starts

[Letters]

A good job? Frictionless trade with the EU by following existing EU rules which we already did before Brexit, the difference being that we no longer have the right of veto over new rules. In what way is that a good job?

He’s avoided the cliff edge of a no deal Brexit.
Like you, I’d rather he’d done that by us staying in the EU, but given that “the people” voted to leave because of a combination of stupidity, ignorance and racism, the deal seems like a reasonable way of ensuring the transition is fairly painless in the short term.

[Coney]

He’s avoided the cliff edge of a no deal Brexit.
Like you, I’d rather he’d done that by us staying in the EU, but given that “the people” voted to leave because of a combination of stupidity, ignorance and racism, the deal seems like a reasonable way of ensuring the transition is fairly painless in the short term.

No deal was never on the cards. That was bluff. Although some Tories would be playing the offshore and shorting trick, they would have known that the repercussions of a no deal would be so disastrous over the next few years that they would be out of office for a decade or more.

(I wonder if France stopping the channel crossings 'due to covid' was also a reminder of what no deal would mean in reality. )

As it is, I don't understand why there is not a 6-month transition period to allow businesses to sort things out for the new procedures.

[Ollie the Optimist]

No deal was never on the cards. That was bluff. Although some Tories would be playing the offshore and shorting trick, they would have known that the repercussions of a no deal would be so disastrous over the next few years that they would be out of office for a decade or more.

(I wonder if France stopping the channel crossings 'due to covid' was also a reminder of what no deal would mean in reality. )

As it is, I don't understand why there is not a 6-month transition period to allow businesses to sort things out for the new procedures.

I doubt six months would be agreed but what i don’t understand is that why both sides havent agreed to a short extension, say 3 months, so that all parties (i.e parliament here & the EU parliament) can actually review the deal in detail rather than rushing it through in one day.

The brexiteers complained that the withdrawal agreements as rushed through with bits they didnt like (despite them 1. Voting for it & 2. Voting last year to rush it through ) so lets take that argument out of the equation and allow time to review.

It would be almost certain the deal would pass as it is

[Xhaka Can’t]

Not all lost in respect of Erasmus. The Irish government said it will fund all third level pupils studying at colleges in the north of Ireland.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55499773

:rolleyes:

[Letters]

https://mobile.twitter.com/bestforbritain/status/1349354654606487552?s=21

You won, get over it.

[GP]

I have no sympathy. He was warned.

[Letters]

I have no sympathy. He was warned.

I have a bit. He was also lied to.

[GP]

By known liars.

[Letters]

True. A Polish friend asked me today:

“ as a british person: are you able to explain to me in a shortest possible way: why did you guys wanted to leave eu?”

Quite hard to sum up succinctly but I went with a combination of racism, stupidity and misplaced jingoism from a generation who still thing Britannia Rules The Waves.

[Ollie the Optimist]

True. A Polish friend asked me today:

“ as a british person: are you able to explain to me in a shortest possible way: why did you guys wanted to leave eu?”

Quite hard to sum up succinctly but I went with a combination of racism, stupidity and misplaced jingoism from a generation who still thing Britannia Rules The Waves.

And therein lies the problem. While some voted along those lines, i do not believe a majority did.

Many prominent remainers stated that leave voters were all thick racists and demanded a second referendum. I’m still not sure to this day how they thought insulting those who voted leave would win their support.

On the first post in this thread i did state why I voted leave. Immigration wasn’t one of those reasons.

The EU has some positive features but also negative. We know they want to become a federal super state, Junker repeatedly stated that. I don’t think that is a good idea. But they are also slow at responding to things.

The vaccine is a prime example. They made a big issue of the UK not joining their purchasing scheme back in July (indeed several guardian headlines accused the government of allowing extra deaths as we would be back of the queue) and last month heavily briefed that we had paid more for doses then they had. However, we have vaccinated more then around 15 EU countries combined. They are slow and it didnt help that they tried to orchestrate that all nations vaccinated their first patients on teh same day in some form of EU PR stunt. A pandemic where speed is essential might not be the best time for PR.

Then there is the issue of Germany breaking a legally binding agreement to purchase their own doses rather than allowing the EU to do so. All EU nations agreeed that they would act as one one this issue yet they will not punish Germany. They pick & choose the rules they want to apply.

I’m not saying that the deal we have is the ideal scenario, i think there was a way the EU & UK could work together but that was scuppered by the brexiteers demanding war & prominent remainers demanding we ignore the referendum. It meant compromise went out of the window. But to say only racists voted to leave is wrong & explains why remain will struggle to ever win a vote to rejoin if they don’t understand why people left.

[Xhaka Can’t]

The last two times I’ve been to the supermarket (2 different stores) they looked like they had been ransacked.

Perfectly normal.

[Letters]

And therein lies the problem. While some voted along those lines, i do not believe a majority did

You are probably right.
There were some really good arguments for leaving and good arguments for staying.
I’m sure lots of people voted on both sides for perfectly good reasons.

But...while not all the people who voted to leave are racists, all the racists voted to leave.
So although my answer to my Polish friend was simplistic, I do believe those reasons are why Leave won. That and because Remain ran a bloody terrible campaign which was basically “don’t vote leave, you dummies, the sky will fall in!”

It was a close vote and I think the things I’ve cited are what ultimately pushed Leave over the line in the Referendum.

[Ollie the Optimist]

You are probably right.
There were some really good arguments for leaving and good arguments for staying.
I’m sure lots of people voted on both sides for perfectly good reasons.

But...while not all the people who voted to leave are racists, all the racists voted to leave.
So although my answer to my Polish friend was simplistic, I do believe those reasons are why Leave won. That and because Remain ran a bloody terrible campaign which was basically “don’t vote leave, you dummies, the sky will fall in!”

It was a close vote and I think the things I’ve cited are what ultimately pushed Leave over the line in the Referendum.


The remain campaign as you say was awful but so was the peoples vote lot afterwards. I went to listen to Nick Clegg give a Q&A on Brexit about a week before the referendum, he was the only one who really argued why we should stay rather than why we shouldnt leave. Two very different arguments. He almost convinced me to vote remain.

The peoples vote lot who carried on after the referendum did more to damage their cause then persuade people to join it in my opinion. The day after, we had people like Caroline Lucas going on tv saying we need to have another vote. Others were playing the stereotype that the thick working class northerners were to blame (way to win back their support). Of course, people should be able to campaign for what they believe in, it is a free country but if you want to be taken seriously, i would argue you dont start the campaign the day you just lost a referendum. Especially when several in the remain campaign had gone on record saying that this was the only referendum & there wouldn’t be another one if you don’t like the result.

The less said about the MPs the better, especially with that farce of the indicative votes which they managed to secure. Not one of them could bring a majority for anything.

I maintain that if after the referendum, remain had immediately started calling for the Norway option (or EFTA etc etc) as brexiteers had done (i think Farage is on record saying Norway would be good) then no one could accuse them of trying to thwart the result. it would still mean leaving the EU, the brexiteers had called for it and if the brexiteers rejected it, then can be painted as hardliners who dont want to compromise. If after a couple of years it go nowhere then fair enough, say you tried & now want a second referendum. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but i do think that approach might have led to a slightly more compromised solution.

[GP]

EFTA or Norway was never on the cards. May saw to that was her Lancaster house speech and the ERG wouldn't have allowed it.

Farage went on to say that EFTA or Norway would be a betrayal of the vote.

So yeah, you can blame remainers for your bad choices all you like, but when someone suggests something might be a bad idea, and you do it anyway, it's probably not their fault.

[Ollie the Optimist]

EFTA or Norway was never on the cards. May say to that was her Lancaster house speech and the ERG wouldn't have allowed it.

Farage went on to say that EFTA or Norway would be a betrayal of the vote.

So yeah, you can blame remainers for your bad choices all you like, but when someone suggests something might be a bad idea, and you do it anyway, it's probably not their fault.

Several in the ERG had called for the Norway option previously like Farage had.

My point was if the remain campaign had on day one after the vote called for it, they might have got public support swinging behind them and made it difficult for the ERG/UKIP etc to take control. May’s Lancaster speech was six months later.

It may not have worked but when the leave campaign said, same access as before etc, Norway etc might have delivered that. That message could have been rammed home before May took over

[Letters]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/13/fisheries-minister-admits-not-reading-brexit-bill-as-she-was-at-nativity

:lol:

:doh:

[Ollie the Optimist]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/13/fisheries-minister-admits-not-reading-brexit-bill-as-she-was-at-nativity

:lol:

:doh:

Nobody could have read the deal in full in the time provided, especially as there was an ongoing pandemic which is taking up a lot of time in ministers jobs.

The fact that neither side agreed to just have a simple extension so that all sides could read & ratify the deal in a calm way is appalling

[Xhaka Can’t]

Nobody could have read the deal in full in the time provided, especially as there was an ongoing pandemic which is taking up a lot of time in ministers jobs.

The fact that neither side agreed to just have a simple extension so that all sides could read & ratify the deal in a calm way is appalling

Perhaps read the parts that pertain to your portfolio? You know, the bits for which you have accountability?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ollie the Optimist]

Perhaps read the parts that pertain to your portfolio? You know, the bits for which you have accountability?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Fair point but then again, MPs were not being asked to vote on the bits that applied to them but rather the whole deal. While i accept your point that ministers should have read the bits that applied to them directly, it still stands that a short extension should have been agreed to allow all sides to digest fully without time pressure

[Letters]

The peoples vote lot who carried on after the referendum did more to damage their cause then persuade people to join it in my opinion. The day after, we had people like Caroline Lucas going on tv saying we need to have another vote.

Yeah. I agree that wasn't helpful. And while I do think thick working class northerners were a factor, as were old a bit racist Daily Mail Readers, I agree that telling people that they were racist idiots and they got it wrong (even if there's some truth in that) is unhelpful.

The main issue I've always had is there was no real plan for what Brexit would look like. And by the time parliament had blundered around trying to work that out, failing to agree, having elections and not being able to get anything passed so much time had gone by that there was a case for a second vote. Enough time had passed that there was a decent chance of a different result.
A snapshot of opinion on a given day which yielded a 52/48 split seems like a shaky basis for something with such long term consequences (which may be good, we don't know yet of course)

It seemed completely perverse that people were saying that another vote would be "undemocratic". How the fuck can a vote be undemocratic?!

[Ollie the Optimist]

Yeah. I agree that wasn't helpful. And while I do think thick working class northerners were a factor, as were old a bit racist Daily Mail Readers, I agree that telling people that they were racist idiots and they got it wrong (even if there's some truth in that) is unhelpful.

The main issue I've always had is there was no real plan for what Brexit would look like. And by the time parliament had blundered around trying to work that out, failing to agree, having elections and not being able to get anything passed so much time had gone by that there was a case for a second vote. Enough time had passed that there was a decent chance of a different result.
A snapshot of opinion on a given day which yielded a 52/48 split seems like a shaky basis for something with such long term consequences (which may be good, we don't know yet of course)

It seemed completely perverse that people were saying that another vote would be "undemocratic". How the fuck can a vote be undemocratic?!

In my view, a second referendum being called for minutes after the first one is undemocratic. You can’t demand another vote just because you lost yesterday. Farage during the campaign floated the idea that there could be a second one if leave lost and was rightly ridiculed for that idea.

However, after a period of time when it was clear it was becoming a mess, then i agree a second referendum was a perfectly democratic thing to do. It’s why i had no issue with the Lib Dem’s standing on a revoke Article 50 manifesto at the last election. If they went from 7 MPs to a majority in one election, it is pretty clear the country would have voted to revoke Article 50.


i agree there wasn’t a real plan on what brexit looked like, the leave campaign were deliberately vague on that which i think i still think as i mentioned yesterday, remain made a mistake in not going all out for the Norway option (or similar). It would have meant leaving the EU, it was a defined way of leaving given there was a blueprint to follow but it would have made brexiteers argue what their plan was. They wouldn’t be able to just offer vague promises but would have to be detailed.

Although looking at some recent polls, it seems that support to rejoin the EU is still at 48% and stay out is at 52% :lol:

[Letters]

Although looking at some recent polls, it seems that support to rejoin the EU is still at 48% and stay out is at 52% :lol:
Interesting. Polls are notoriously unreliable of course but I found this:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

The referendum was in June 2016, you can see how close the polls were then and they're bouncing around a bit between Leave and Remain.

It's interesting that in 2012 there seemed to be quite a strong sentiment to leave the EU.
Around the time of the Referendum it was very close.
Now it looks like there's actually more of a pro-EU sentiment, but you've obviously seen different data.

It just seems inherently stupid to take an action with such long lasting consequences (which could be for good of course, long term, we don't know yet) based on a one off snapshot of public opinion. Especially when the result was so close. At least the 1975 referendum to stay in the Common Market had a 67% yes vote so it was nice and clear. A 52/48 split either way was obviously going to cause a lot of resentment - especially when they took so long bumbling around not being able to agree what Brexit actually meant :doh:

[GP]

That's unfair, we know perfectly well what Brexit meant.


It meant Brexit.

:rolleyes:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Interesting. Polls are notoriously unreliable of course but I found this:

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-on-britains-membership-of-the-eu-how-would-you-vote-2/

The referendum was in June 2016, you can see how close the polls were then and they're bouncing around a bit between Leave and Remain.

It's interesting that in 2012 there seemed to be quite a strong sentiment to leave the EU.
Around the time of the Referendum it was very close.
Now it looks like there's actually more of a pro-EU sentiment, but you've obviously seen different data.

It just seems inherently stupid to take an action with such long lasting consequences (which could be for good of course, long term, we don't know yet) based on a one off snapshot of public opinion. Especially when the result was so close. At least the 1975 referendum to stay in the Common Market had a 67% yes vote so it was nice and clear. A 52/48 split either way was obviously going to cause a lot of resentment - especially when they took so long bumbling around not being able to agree what Brexit actually meant :doh:

It was a poll from the new statesman here https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2021/01/uk-voters-might-regret-brexit-they-don-t-want-reverse-it

Once dont knows/undecideds are excluded it was 52% to stay out & 48% to rejoin.

While i agree with your comments that brexit wasn’t clear when voting, i do believe it is dangerous to saying that it was just one snapshot. All referendums are effectively a snapshot of public opinion at that time and when rules of the referendum were laid down, it was a simple majority required. If remain had won by one vote, i doubt many on the remain side would be claiming that there should be another vote as it wasn’t decisive. They would have quite rightly rejected brexiteers calls for second votes by claiming we all knew the rules when we signed up.

[Letters]

If remain had won by one vote, i doubt many on the remain side would be claiming that there should be another vote as it wasn’t decisive. They would have quite rightly rejected brexiteers calls for second votes by claiming we all knew the rules when we signed up.
Well, sure. But the Leave side would - Farage said a 52/48 vote to Remain would be "unfinished business".
Tbh, I don't think there should have been a referendum about this at all. I'm not just saying that because "I" lost (I think we all lost, but that remains to be seen).
I remember back in the day there was talk of a referendum about joining the Euro and I remember thinking "What are you asking me for? I got a D in economics!" :lol:. As things go I'm fairly intelligent although not as well informed about some things as I probably should be. I don't think people who are going to vote to Leave because of the "bloody Frogs" really deserve a vote.

In brief: Democracy is overrated :d

[Ollie the Optimist]

Well, sure. But the Leave side would - Farage said a 52/48 vote to Remain would be "unfinished business".
Tbh, I don't think there should have been a referendum about this at all. I'm not just saying that because "I" lost (I think we all lost, but that remains to be seen).
I remember back in the day there was talk of a referendum about joining the Euro and I remember thinking "What are you asking me for? I got a D in economics!" :lol:. As things go I'm fairly intelligent although not as well informed about some things as I probably should be. I don't think people who are going to vote to Leave because of the "bloody Frogs" really deserve a vote.

In brief: Democracy is overrated :d

And he was wrong to do so. At the time, many remainers (who assumed they would win) attacked him saying that this was a one time vote. No re runs etc. If you lose, thats it.

They changed their tune pretty quickly :lol: (as did Farage tbf)

[GP]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-shellfish-lorries-park-near-downing-street-as-new-rules-cause-severe-delays-at-eu-border-12191385

This is going well.

[Niall_Quinn]

Suddenly we are all concerned about peoples livelihoods. It's touching to know the concern is genuine and not selective and politically motivated.

[Letters]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-shellfish-lorries-park-near-downing-street-as-new-rules-cause-severe-delays-at-eu-border-12191385

This is going well.

But at least the fish are British now and therefore happier.

[GP]

But at least the fish are British now and therefore happier.

Just by being in British waters, that makes the fish British too!

I assume that applies to people as well?

[Niall_Quinn]

Just by being in British waters, that makes the fish British too!

I assume that applies to people as well?

You found the race angle. Impressive. Just goes to show, practise makes perfect.

[Letters]

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-shellfish-lorries-park-near-downing-street-as-new-rules-cause-severe-delays-at-eu-border-12191385

This is going well.

Also. Blocking central London streets

That's just shellfish :sulk:

[GP]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/20/brexiter-roger-daltrey-criticises-restrictions-for-musicians-touring-europe

Won't get fooled again.

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/jan/20/brexiter-roger-daltrey-criticises-restrictions-for-musicians-touring-europe

Won't get fooled again.

Always focusing on the small picture, so your brain can cope.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277

lolz

[WMUG]

Always focusing on the small picture, so your brain can cope.

Isn't the small picture a fair enough thing to focus on?

People are interested in how this will effect their lives. To me personally, Brexit brings nothing but negatives.

Maybe it brings positives to others' lives, but people are going to complain about things that have an effect on their day-to-day existence like music tours and the prices of shirts as well, and that's perfectly reasonable to me.

[Niall_Quinn]

Isn't the small picture a fair enough thing to focus on?

People are interested in how this will effect their lives. To me personally, Brexit brings nothing but negatives.

Maybe it brings positives to others' lives, but people are going to complain about things that have an effect on their day-to-day existence like music tours and the prices of shirts as well, and that's perfectly reasonable to me.

These remoaners are in the middle of this covid chaos that spans the entire continent but they are still peering out their windows every day to try to spot a queue of trucks. So they can make some point about Brexit being a disaster, and then pretend they are concerned about those truck drivers. I'm not criticising the individual winners or losers from this, I'm talking about the morons who would complain about dirty silverware in the last moments of the Titanic.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I saw this article being shared yesterday on twitter https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/health/covid19-vaccine-oxford-ireland-brexit-19672792

Things like this do not help the EU in my opinion. I do not see any reason why countries cannot stockpile certain drugs while awaiting approval for use. Surely it just means they are ready to go as soon as approval comes in rather than waiting a few extra days.

The article also have one interesting quote


Ireland has been barred from ordering doses of the Oxford coronavirus vaccine in an apparent EU bid to pay the UK back for Brexit.

I’m not sure what Ireland having the oxford vaccine does that would help the UK, as i dont think we make money from it given its being sold at cost price to people.

The only way the UK will benefit from countries in the EU having the vaccine is that it will open up travel etc but then again, that also benefits the EU.

Ignoring for a moment whether this is about brexit or not, the trap the EU falls into often is trying to manage things they shouldnt. In a pandemic where speed is of the essence, i think national governments should be making the decisions over what vaccines to use & how they order them. No issues with the EU using their might to bulk buy at lower prices and issue regulatory approval for all nations within the EU but apart from that, they should leave the nations to administer as they see fit.

[Letters]

Why is no-one thinking of the real victims? Crisps :sulk:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/21/crisps-lorry-held-up-two-days-northern-irish-brexit-checks-mps-told

[Xhaka Can’t]

Irish crisps are far superior anyway.

[Ollie the Optimist]

There really is an almighty row between the EU & AstreaZeneca at the moment over the Covid vaccine.

The EU want AZ to divert supplies meant for the UK to them because of shortfalls but AZ agreed the contract to supply the UK 3 months before the EU agreed theirs. The UK had 3 months to fix supply chain issues but because the EU were slow at negotiating, it meant their supply chains are behind.

There was also the briefing from the Germans to their media that the vaccine was only 8% effective for those over 65 which turned out to be total bollocks.


Either way, this row is going to get very political if the EU effectively tries to steal vaccines meant for the UK because they were slow at ordering them. The EU spokesperson today said “we reject the logic of first come first served”

Not quite sure that works here. If you take ages to order and therefore have less time to fix supply chain issues, you cant just take products meant for others to fix your own mistakes.

This is a fascinating interview from teh CEO of AZ that came out yesterday https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/26/news/interview_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronaviru s_covid_vaccines-284349628/

Either way, lets face it, if the situation was reversed & the UK were trying to divert vaccines meant for the EU because of our failings, the EU would have probably declared war on us!

[Niall_Quinn]

There really is an almighty row between the EU & AstreaZeneca at the moment over the Covid vaccine.

The EU want AZ to divert supplies meant for the UK to them because of shortfalls but AZ agreed the contract to supply the UK 3 months before the EU agreed theirs. The UK had 3 months to fix supply chain issues but because the EU were slow at negotiating, it meant their supply chains are behind.

There was also the briefing from the Germans to their media that the vaccine was only 8% effective for those over 65 which turned out to be total bollocks.


Either way, this row is going to get very political if the EU effectively tries to steal vaccines meant for the UK because they were slow at ordering them. The EU spokesperson today said “we reject the logic of first come first served”

Not quite sure that works here. If you take ages to order and therefore have less time to fix supply chain issues, you cant just take products meant for others to fix your own mistakes.

This is a fascinating interview from teh CEO of AZ that came out yesterday https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/01/26/news/interview_pascal_soriot_ceo_astrazeneca_coronaviru s_covid_vaccines-284349628/

Either way, lets face it, if the situation was reversed & the UK were trying to divert vaccines meant for the EU because of our failings, the EU would have probably declared war on us!

At least we'd have plenty of time to prepare. The only danger would be complacency as we waited.

[Ollie the Optimist]

So the EU have now triggered Article 16 of the NI Prtotocal which effectively puts a hard border between Ireland & Northern Ireland following their ban on vaccine exports.

Seems to imply that UK vaccines bound for Norther Ireland are also banned but i might have misread that.

Also today the EU have been attacking the UK over the EUs failure to actually vaccinate their own people. They spent too long trying to haggle over price rather then actually buying the bloody things.


Basically this week the EU have shown themselves to be exactly what Breixteers always claimed. Probably a good thing there isn’t a second referendum this year, leave would be winning by a mile due to the antics of the EU this week

[Ollie the Optimist]

I think this tweet sums it up pretty well



Unbelievable – a hard border, imposed by the EU, *one month* into the treaty, after it spent four years insisting that was unthinkable, to stop the UK getting vaccines it paid for, because of the Commission's shite handling of procurement. They have lost the plot. https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1355210836852305927


I dont see how any come justify the behaviour this week of the EU.

Macron has also just come out & attacked the UK strategy with a lie that quite frankly Trump would be proud of by claiming our strategy isn’t serious as we are only giving one dose.

That’s not the case at all. He also claimed that the AZ vaccine doesnt work in over 60s despite teh EU regulator & UK one approving it.


Also begs teh question, if these AZ vaccines dont work, why are the EU threatening to effectively steal our supply, imposing a hard border in Ireland and threatening AZ with legal action.

[Letters]

Gotta say, they do seem to be acting like dicks.
Although obviously if we were in the EU they wouldn’t be acting like this towards us though.
Is the argument that if we were in the EU we wouldn’t have been able to sort out our vaccination strategy on our own like we did?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Gotta say, they do seem to be acting like dicks.
Although obviously if we were in the EU they wouldn’t be acting like this towards us though.
Is the argument that if we were in the EU we wouldn’t have been able to sort out our vaccination strategy on our own like we did?

Effectively yes.

The EU stopped their members sorting out their vaccinations on their own. Germany, Italy, France & Netherlands had negotiated contracts with AZ to buy the vaccine in June before the EU took over and insisted all nations act as one through them. This delayed the contract for three months & then they agreed basically what France etc have negotiated.

We could have authorised the vaccine under emergency use if we were in the EU so we could still have been quick on that aspect but would have no control over the delieveries of the vaccine etc.

[Letters]

I see.
So. Basically
Brexit :bow:

?

[Ollie the Optimist]

I see.
So. Basically
Brexit :bow:

?

If the referendum was this year, this week alone would have won it for brexit in a landslide :lol:

Seriously, the way the EU have behaved, threatening to steal our vaccines, imposing a hard border in Ireland today, spreading false information about the Vaccine is pretty much evidence of all the faults people raised with the EU during the referendum. Ignoring immigration etc.

The way they have handled their vaccine roll out is appalling, they spent to long trying to negotiate cheap prices which allowed others to just buy them & jump the queue. The reason our vaccines with AZ are ahead is because the contract was agreed in May and meant that production lines were being worked on from then. It meant more time to iron out issues. The EU agreed their contract several months later so of course will have delays. They started production 3 months after us.

The Israeli Prime Minster yesterday stated that he told his team not to negotiate price with Pfizer, just pay it as we need them. The UK has a similar attitude and guess what? Both countries are ahead. The EU have tried to save money, which is fine to a degreee, but in a pandemic speed is everything. If a vaccine costs a bit more then pay it, as it will mean opening up sooner which will make up the higher prices

[GP]

Gotta say, they do seem to be acting like dicks.
Although obviously if we were in the EU they wouldn’t be acting like this towards us though.


we're a 3rd country.
We voted for this.

Well, not me...

[Ollie the Optimist]

we're a 3rd country.
We voted for this.

Well, not me...

Us voting to leave has nothing to do with the balls up the EU have made in their vaccine scheme.

Them imposing a hard border in Ireland is a consequence of course but given their decision tonight, they have managed something quite remarkable which is to make the UK Government, Irish Government, DUP, Sein Fein, Tories & labour all agree on the same thing.

But going back to the third country you mention, this has allowed us to buy vaccines quickly unlike the EU. So do you think they now have the right to demand our supplies etc?

[Niall_Quinn]

So the EU have now triggered Article 16 of the NI Prtotocal which effectively puts a hard border between Ireland & Northern Ireland following their ban on vaccine exports.

Seems to imply that UK vaccines bound for Norther Ireland are also banned but i might have misread that.

Also today the EU have been attacking the UK over the EUs failure to actually vaccinate their own people. They spent too long trying to haggle over price rather then actually buying the bloody things.


Basically this week the EU have shown themselves to be exactly what Breixteers always claimed. Probably a good thing there isn’t a second referendum this year, leave would be winning by a mile due to the antics of the EU this week

Just use the army to transport whatever across the border then. You think a bunch of frogs or hun will do anything? If the army crosses the border against their limp dick "rules" then that's an invasion. We might even get a stiffly worded letter and some adverse coverage in the press. Heavens preserves us! It's all bluster. Fuck them. We could invade and transform their entire societies while they were still in committee meetings. Fucking Europeans, eh? Just as they always were.

The EU is on the way out and they know it. Hence the last gasps. Poland , Italy, Greece and then more - wait and watch.

[Ollie the Optimist]

So the EU have confirmed they aren’t triggering Article 16 and that it was an oversight.

An oversight is forgetting to order milk in the online shop not enacting a fucking border between the Republic of Ireland & Northern Ireland.

If this was the UK who did that, the pressure ofBoris to resign would be immense. As its the EU, no one will take any responsibility but really those at the top should be resigning

[Niall_Quinn]

Theoretically (if Brexit was real) we don't need to care what those cunts think or do. Leave them to it. I'm just glad we haven't afforded official diplomatic status to their cunt of an ambassador, last time I checked anyway. Even our mob aren't that stupid, because everyone knows the EU is not designed to be a superstate (with all the diplomatic privileges it brings).

Isn't that right?

[Ollie the Optimist]

Theoretically (if Brexit was real) we don't need to care what those cunts think or do. Leave them to it. I'm just glad we haven't afforded official diplomatic status to their cunt of an ambassador, last time I checked anyway. Even our mob aren't that stupid, because everyone knows the EU is not designed to be a superstate (with all the diplomatic privileges it brings).

Isn't that right?

I hesitate to ask but how is brexit not real? We are no longer part of the European Union

[Niall_Quinn]

I hesitate to ask but how is brexit not real? We are no longer part of the European Union

There's reams of EU law still on our books. None of it has been removed. Remember how "harmonisation" was used as an excuse to increase tax on taxed earnings to 20%? When's that going back down, now we aren't in "harmony" any more?

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55997641

:ninja:

[selassie]

There's reams of EU law still on our books. None of it has been removed. Remember how "harmonisation" was used as an excuse to increase tax on taxed earnings to 20%? When's that going back down, now we aren't in "harmony" any more?

Of course there is, we have been in the EU since it's existence. This isn't a computer game where you can just reset laws at the drop of a hat.

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course there is, we have been in the EU since it's existence. This isn't a computer game where you can just reset laws at the drop of a hat.

Really? I thought it was, having just watched law being created out of thin air and spun up within hours or days.

[GP]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1359422280238047237

What a stupid bitch

[selassie]

Really? I thought it was, having just watched law being created out of thin air and spun up within hours or days.

Right..... :yawn:

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgKmnbFdtTs

[Xhaka Can’t]

That was fucking awful.

[Letters]

Brexit or the song?

[Xhaka Can’t]

I suppose one was the cause of the other.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59288593

Brexit :bow:

Maybe? :shrug:

[GP]

So war with Europe in two years time?

Maybe