Match Thread: Ukraine vs Russia.

[WMUG]

Russia really should be winning this one, even if Ukraine have home advantage.

Looks like they may have to settle for a draw at this rate, however.

[Letters]

0-3 Putin hatter

[WMUG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt2u4dlZBHE

[WMUG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE
This helped me understand a lot more about the whole situation.

[Letters]

https://newsthump.com/2022/02/28/putin-goes-nuclear-with-barbaric-claim-that-ukrainian-leader-zelensky-wrote-material-for-michael-mcintyre/

:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=If61baWF4GE
This helped me understand a lot more about the whole situation.

Couple of crucial points to add that flip the cleverly biased context of this propaganda piece 180.

During the latter years of the Soviet Union Ukraine was far an away the largest producer of natural gas in the entire state. Massive, massive volumes, can't remember the number but it was huge. Trouble is, it was also expensive and highly subject to global price fluctuations. When prices went down production became a loss making endeavour. Then more easily recoverable deposits were found further east and Ukraine's important steadily waned (in terms of energy). Putin's not in Ukraine because he fears Ukrainian competition in the energy market. That competition would never materialise. Think it through. If more supply came onto the market the price would go down. Okay?

Next thing, the US wants to sell LNG to Europe. Do you need me to continue?

[Niall_Quinn]

Btw, the "If you see NATO as a threat" comedy punch line was good. You can see the blue spreading across the map, cutting into every avenue, breaking open new points of control. How was it done? Criminals in office stole money from you and handed it to tinpot tyrants in these "democratic" regions. Not that the Russians didn't do exactly the same. But the point here is, one nation views this as an existential threat, the other views it as an elitist profit opportunity and a stepping stone in their imperialist fantasy. But mainly the money, you know?

This is where I give Obama some credit. He tried to hold the neocons and the addicts in the energy industry (and their paid off stooges like Ted Cruz) back. But he was overwhelmed because he made exactly the same mistake as Trump. He didn't sack (I'd have killed them so they couldn't come back) every last motherfucker the minute he turned the handle of the Oval Office. Critical mistake. We might find out just how critical. They turned a seriously flawed but somewhat pragmatic and peace oriented man into a base animal, a savage. They always do. Even Trump couldn't stop them, though he at least scuppered their plans for Iran. A major reason for the coup in 2020.

[Letters]

https://i.ibb.co/R3mh81y/HTPHUkraine.jpg

:ninja:

(By the way, that honestly isn't aimed at anyone in particular. I have pretty much said nothing about this because I'd be the first to admit I'm completely ignorant of the history and politics around it all)

[Letters]

BREAKING NEWS!

Russia have been stripped of the 2022 World Volleyball Championships! This is massive!

Take that, Putin! :cool:

[dazthegooner]

Dodge a bullet here :yikes: Usmanov hit by sanctions
The European Council have confirmed that Everton investor Alisher Usmanov has been hit by its latest round of sanctions in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.Usmanov hit by sanctions

[Xhaka Can’t]

They probably thought he still had a stake in Arsenal

[dazthegooner]

Did actually read that somewhere the other day that Chelsea and Arsenal were going to face sanctions because of Russian influence :sarcy:

[Letters]

Boris Johnson in Warsaw.
Aren't they suffering enough?

[Niall_Quinn]

https://i.ibb.co/R3mh81y/HTPHUkraine.jpg

:ninja:

(By the way, that honestly isn't aimed at anyone in particular. I have pretty much said nothing about this because I'd be the first to admit I'm completely ignorant of the history and politics around it all)

Why do you instantly assume the flawed "experts" are us? And not them? You know, the talking heads on the logo spinning 24/7 war and drugs and death channels? You see the mess we're in? Was it our "expertise" (I call it reading a book) that got us here? Ultimately I suppose yes, through complacency. But we didn't pull the levers. We didn't actually set out to fuck literally everything up.

Let me warn you in advance, I'm an "expert" in the cult of warmism too, and I actually am somewhat of an expert in the technology stories that will be arriving soon.

Most of my expertise comes from being bitten once, twice, three times, four, five times and many more. I kind of figured out I was being bitten, all by myself, given the huge chunks missing from my arse. So I read a few books to figure out why. Which is more than you can say for the mindless repeaters on the BBC or the geniuses poking away at an angry bear.

We'll know a lot more about the experts in the medical profession shortly. Keep an eye out for that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dodge a bullet here :yikes: Usmanov hit by sanctions
The European Council have confirmed that Everton investor Alisher Usmanov has been hit by its latest round of sanctions in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.Usmanov hit by sanctions

Why do they need to sanction him? Wasn't he giving them his money anyway? Weren't they grabbing it and cheering about it?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Did actually read that somewhere the other day that Chelsea and Arsenal were going to face sanctions because of Russian influence :sarcy:

No doubt another piece of journalistic brilliance

[Letters]

Why do you instantly assume the flawed "experts" are us? And not them?
Because they have studied the relevant field for years, not just Googled stuff and looked at some memes.
This really isn't a dig at you, you're obviously well read. But holy shit everyone who can Google or follow a YouTube channel (often one which tells them what they want to hear) thinks they're a bloody expert these days. It's depressing.

[Niall_Quinn]

Because they have studied the relevant field for years, not just Googled stuff and looked at some memes.
This really isn't a dig at you, you're obviously well read. But holy shit everyone who can Google or follow a YouTube channel (often one which tells them what they want to hear) thinks they're a bloody expert these days. It's depressing.

It's not in the least depressing. The more that speak the better it gets because it's from that endless exchange the truth will emerge. Eventually. When you claim the approved experts have studied in their relevant fields for years, we that's just not true either is it, in many cases. Was watching Doctor Bill Gates, Master of fuck all, laying down the medical news just the other day. And the drone interviewer sitting there and nodding sagely. What about the "expert" politicians who can parachute into a job on the Monday and be setting policy by the end of the week? You see them sharing their words of wisdom all across the news free, opinion dominated, mainstream media. Then there are the experts who are not allowed to speak at all, the ones who did actually study in their relevant fields for many years. Some of the most eminent experts in the fields of virology and epidemiology were completely sidelined during the Covid "debate", for example. Thousands of well read and practised medical professionals were brushed aside when they objected to the bullshit coming form the likes of Fauci, Whitty and the eternal arsehole Ferguson. Fauci and Whitty haven't practised anything except politics and bureaucracy for decades.

So be careful when you read the string of letters after their names. Ask why they are allowed to speak when others aren't. Ask why they always seem to be in line with the agendas of those who deal in power and profit. If anything it's the shameful behaviour of experts who should have known better and do know better that has driven people away from the academic debate. Once trust is lost it's hard to restore. When the debate is closed and only open to those with the "correct" conclusions it ends up being ignored and bypassed as people find other ways to discuss matters that affect them. Give the appalling behaviour of a string of so-called experts that have consistently led us through one wealth transfer after the next (sheer coincidence of course) what sort of society can you see developing if everyone just shut up and accepted what these obviously compromised individuals have to hand down in their eternally profitable wisdom?

The profit motive has made bastards of more people than can be named. These people are a long way from mother science and engulfed in something far less worthy. Not all of them of course. Some still hold true to the centuries of endeavour that got us this far. Those are the ones I listen to. "My scientists" as you like to say. Not because I agree with them, but because I can trace their methodology and conclusions back through science rather than politics.

911 has gone. Iraq has gone. The great housing rip-off has gone. In time Covid will be gone. But it's worth looking back to examine those periods and have a think about just how much expertise the well read gents who were running those shit shows genuinely have.

Global warming next. "Experts" who can't read a weather chart or a water level marker, hunched over their bullshit models and declaring the world at an end every 5 years. Those are the arseholes that will lead the debate, with everyone else labeled a denier. Not science or expertise, is it? Not when you have to behave like the Inquisition to make an argument.

[dazthegooner]

No doubt another piece of journalistic brilliance

Yup didn't get the original source but I believe it was MAD magazine :unsure:

[GP]

Boris Johnson in Warsaw.
Aren't they suffering enough?

I hate the Midlands.

[Mac76]

There's now a price on Putin's head :lol:

https://www.newsweek.com/wanted-dead-alive-russian-tycoon-puts-1m-bounty-putins-head-1684337

[Mac76]

I hate the Midlands.

:gp:

[Letters]

Finally some good news, eh NQ? ##

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60617365

[Niall_Quinn]

Finally some good news, eh NQ? ##

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60617365

Why good news? Are you implying I'm the one who supports censorship, rather than you? I want the BBC shut down in its current format because it's a criminal act to extort money from people who don't want it. But I have never suggested they shouldn't be allowed to keep peddling their propaganda. However, it's nice to see you finally, after all this time, mention censorship. If I had to guess I'd say you didn't have the courage to openly condemn it, given your support for censorship in the past, so you used another "joke" to make certain implications about me.

So, to be clear, for the hundredth time at least, I don't support any form of censorship under any circumstances.

As for the article itself, well, anyone can see through such childish propaganda, ironically used to criticise Russian propaganda. Both exist, of course, but the sheer arrogance of the BBC as it refers to, "Access to accurate, independent information", is typically stupefying. This from the same organisation that pushed every western war, sold the lies about WMD and Russiagate, and cosseted Saville, to name a few. Nobody with an ounce of sense pays any attention.

That said, I wonder how far the BBC would get if it decide to oppose the British state? In Russia they can declare their political view and walk off they air. Implying they were on the air in the first place. Is it in any way conceivable the BBC would have staunchly opposed the war in Iraq, to the point of walking off the air? The possibility is 0.0%

And that's the real joke in all of this. The BBC itself.

[Letters]

Indians :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/skbozphd/status/1499298691156705282

[Letters]

And that's the real joke in all of this. The BBC itself.
Dear God you're up tight.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dear God you're up tight.

Perhaps. But I am not trivial and I have sufficient nerve to stab people in the front.

[Letters]

“A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men”

And being violent is not something one should be proud about.

[Niall_Quinn]

“A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men”

And being violent is not something one should be proud about.

Now who's being uptight? Violence? You initiate these spats yet also insist on appointing yourself the moral arbiter. That degree of two-facedness is almost as extreme as your hysterical attempt to exaggerate a variation on a common saying into a violent intention. A little nonsense may be relished, but incessant duplicity goes beyond that into something far more calculated.

And all the while, the initial response is buried deeper.

[Niall_Quinn]

A word from the forgotten people of this war, the non-people, the East Ukrainians who have suffered ongoing losses at the hands of their so-called countrymen in the laughably described democratic nation of Ukraine. Where were the flags and mindless chants when these Ukrainians were being slaughtered?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9RSsvTR06k

[Letters]

You initiate these spats
Spat? Holy shit, I posted something as a joke. You're the one who wrote a long post taking it ever so seriously and are now spoiling for a fight.
Lighten up, dude. I was messing around.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60665877

I have more or less kept out of commenting on this situation because, honestly, I don’t know what I’m talking about. But I see stuff like this and I see people on social media all but punching the air about it. But let’s think about this for a minute. Aside from the inconvenience of people not being able to get a Big Mac (which is, I’d suggest, no bad thing). It now surely means there are thousands of Russians out of work. Hooray?

I get the idea of sanctions but it seems to me they’re affecting the wrong people disproportionately and won’t make any difference to what Putin is doing.

[Globalgunner]

A word from the forgotten people of this war, the non-people, the East Ukrainians who have suffered ongoing losses at the hands of their so-called countrymen in the laughably described democratic nation of Ukraine. Where were the flags and mindless chants when these Ukrainians were being slaughtered?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9RSsvTR06k

Great interview. Pure realism.

[Niall_Quinn]

Spat? Holy shit, I posted something as a joke. You're the one who wrote a long post taking it ever so seriously and are now spoiling for a fight.
Lighten up, dude. I was messing around.

Projection.

I saw a guy in the States shot the bastard who abused his kid. Good for him. I bet you don't approve Letters and you'll have to be careful the next time you go there.

It's just a joke!

<_< :ninja: :cheer: :flash: etc, etc...

[Niall_Quinn]

Great interview. Pure realism.

It's falling on deaf ears. If you haven't just eaten then scan down the top page of the Daily Mail web site. Yes, I know, that's like asking you to jet ski through a sewer. But it gives a chilling overview of the free fall our own societies are in as everyone piles on the hate for distant lands. I don't think I've ever seen it this bad. I had a hope some people might get a clue following Covid, and I suppose some have. And I guess the blanket censorship makes it appear like the vast majority have lost their minds, but it still seems a huge number of people in this country are prepared to swallow just about anything the state and its puppet media shits down on them. Propaganda is to be expected in war, even ludicrous and contradictory nonsense can fly if you get people frightened and enraged enough. But we're talking possible war with a nuclear power and it's not entirely certain the demons and money vampires running the show have any notion of where the line between clicks for cash, profits from arms sales (and all the other agendas) is drawn, beyond which real danger lies.

This reminds me a lot of 2007/8 when the "geniuses" who crashed a global economy to get even richer were shown up to be nothing more than a gang of thieves of limited intelligence and wit, fraudsters whose only excellence was they were prepared to sacrifice anything and everything to claw and scrape more than they could ever need and then some more and more still. The few with braincells who could see the onrushing disaster went along for the ride anyway because they just couldn't resist the frenzy, like sharks who end up eating each other. Besides, they knew their fellow criminals were in prime positions to ensure no direct cost was ever paid by those most responsible.

These people sacrificed 60 million jobs globally, vanished trillions of dollars from life savings, pension funds and local communities across the globe. Nobody counted how many died as a result. Then they did it all again with Covid. Now we just sit here and hope there's a shred of self preservation hidden somewhere in their black hearts and the frenzy doesn't take them over the precipice.

People who are screaming and cheering and frothing and waving their flags (in a way they'd never wave their own flag, btw) in support of a corrupt regime and its neo-Nazi allies, thousands of miles away, probably need to take at least 5 minutes to consider what really happens if their entertaining war ripe for virtue signalling and fist pumping sloganeering takes a turn beyond the control of those who continually show themselves to be incompetent and driven by the most basic instinct. One day it's all a bit of harmless rage and hate, the next it's the stone age and blood and guts on your own street.

Scan the Daily Mail, or the Guardian, or any of the "august" publications baying for clicks. Some are saying there's no way back for Putin now. But he's far from being alone in that fate. Is this what it was really like during WWII, I wonder? Once the bravery and the courage and the loyalty and all the other front page stuff was stripped away? Was it as deeply undignified then as it is today, or has the nation taken a dive into the depths?

We're just going to site here and let this play out and hope for the best I guess. Even though we could end it tomorrow if enough of us had an ounce of courage.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Abramovich sanctioned.

Hopefully Chelsea go bust.

Boris :bow:

[Ollie the Optimist]

Reading the licence granted to Chelsea to continue to operate by the government, they are very limited.

Allowed to pay salaries, catering, travel to games & security costs but that is it.

No ticket sales (only ST holders allowed to attend), no merchandise sales or allowed to buy/sell players

[Letters]

I am mostly keeping quiet about all this because I really don't feel I know enough about it all - all the history/geography/politics.
BUT, I think this is a move we can all get behind.

:patrice:

[Mac76]

It's falling on deaf ears. If you haven't just eaten then scan down the top page of the Daily Mail web site. Yes, I know, that's like asking you to jet ski through a sewer. But it gives a chilling overview of the free fall our own societies are in as everyone piles on the hate for distant lands. I don't think I've ever seen it this bad. I had a hope some people might get a clue following Covid, and I suppose some have. And I guess the blanket censorship makes it appear like the vast majority have lost their minds, but it still seems a huge number of people in this country are prepared to swallow just about anything the state and its puppet media shits down on them. Propaganda is to be expected in war, even ludicrous and contradictory nonsense can fly if you get people frightened and enraged enough. But we're talking possible war with a nuclear power and it's not entirely certain the demons and money vampires running the show have any notion of where the line between clicks for cash, profits from arms sales (and all the other agendas) is drawn, beyond which real danger lies.

This reminds me a lot of 2007/8 when the "geniuses" who crashed a global economy to get even richer were shown up to be nothing more than a gang of thieves of limited intelligence and wit, fraudsters whose only excellence was they were prepared to sacrifice anything and everything to claw and scrape more than they could ever need and then some more and more still. The few with braincells who could see the onrushing disaster went along for the ride anyway because they just couldn't resist the frenzy, like sharks who end up eating each other. Besides, they knew their fellow criminals were in prime positions to ensure no direct cost was ever paid by those most responsible.

These people sacrificed 60 million jobs globally, vanished trillions of dollars from life savings, pension funds and local communities across the globe. Nobody counted how many died as a result. Then they did it all again with Covid. Now we just sit here and hope there's a shred of self preservation hidden somewhere in their black hearts and the frenzy doesn't take them over the precipice.

People who are screaming and cheering and frothing and waving their flags (in a way they'd never wave their own flag, btw) in support of a corrupt regime and its neo-Nazi allies, thousands of miles away, probably need to take at least 5 minutes to consider what really happens if their entertaining war ripe for virtue signalling and fist pumping sloganeering takes a turn beyond the control of those who continually show themselves to be incompetent and driven by the most basic instinct. One day it's all a bit of harmless rage and hate, the next it's the stone age and blood and guts on your own street.

Scan the Daily Mail, or the Guardian, or any of the "august" publications baying for clicks. Some are saying there's no way back for Putin now. But he's far from being alone in that fate. Is this what it was really like during WWII, I wonder? Once the bravery and the courage and the loyalty and all the other front page stuff was stripped away? Was it as deeply undignified then as it is today, or has the nation taken a dive into the depths?

We're just going to site here and let this play out and hope for the best I guess. Even though we could end it tomorrow if enough of us had an ounce of courage.

great stuff, when does the DVD come out?

[Mac76]

I am mostly keeping quiet about all this because I really don't feel I know enough about it all - all the history/geography/politics.
BUT, I think this is a move we can all get behind.

:patrice:

except that the last time they weren't allowed to buy players they realised they actually had a whole bunch of talented people on the books and actually became a lot better - a bit like Arteta accidentally discovering ESR and Saka in fact, when he was forced to play them... :whistle:

[Letters]

Stop spoiling things! :angry:

But also, it's a bit more than that. They're not allowed to sell tickets or merchandise. These are things which could actually affect them.

[Niall_Quinn]

great stuff, when does the DVD come out?

I should have posted links to the DVDs. Sorry. Which one were you after? The one from 1914? 1917? 1921, 1939, 1944, 1950, 1955, 1963... 2001, 2007, 2014, 2020, 2022?

That's the trouble with a trilogy in non-ending parts.

Personally I found it a bit repetitive after the first few discs, they seem to have run out of novel ways to develop the plot and keep the audience fully engaged. Which led to increasingly unbelievable story developments that only the die-hard fans could go with. The last couple of episodes have been a bit like Bobby Ewing shower scene meets anything and everything written by Benioff and Weiss. I watch it now in the same way I watch Arsenal, mostly for the nostalgia and because the children still think it's real, like Santa Claus.

Anyway, which year were you interested in?

Who are you rooting for in the latest series? The evil communists or the heroic Nazis?

[Niall_Quinn]

Abramovich sanctioned.

Hopefully Chelsea go bust.

Boris :bow:

It's all still tongue-in-cheek fan rivalry, right?

[Niall_Quinn]

Does this mean all the conspiracy theories about Roman are finally true? It took a long time for those particular conspiracy theories to be yeah, like, everyone knew that, duh!

[Ollie the Optimist]

Reading more details, Chelsea are only allowed to spend 20k for travel to games.

Usual premier league away game costs around 30k, European ones even more.


Going to be a laugh seeing them fly Ryanair, travel on mega bus and still in a youth hostel :lol:

[WMUG]

Does this mean all the conspiracy theories about Roman are finally true? It took a long time for those particular conspiracy theories to be yeah, like, everyone knew that, duh!

Not sure anybody thought it wasn't true about Abramovich :lol:

This is fantastic to hear, though.

Fuck that club, hope they go out of business and are forced to start again in tier 10.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not sure anybody thought it wasn't true about Abramovich :lol:

This is fantastic to hear, though.

Fuck that club, hope they go out of business and are forced to start again in tier 10.

I'm hoping all the people who took his money didn't know, or else that would make them...

[Niall_Quinn]

Lots and lots of bullshit in the "news" about bio-labs and exploding nuclear plants and "expert" analysis on chemical weapons. Sounds like the western democracies are getting ready to pull something really nasty. Like they did in Syria.

[LDG]

I'm hoping all the people who took his money didn't know, or else that would make them...

John Terry

[WMUG]

John Terry

Harsh on anyone to be compared to him.

[Mac76]

Lots and lots of bullshit in the "news" about bio-labs and exploding nuclear plants and "expert" analysis on chemical weapons. Sounds like the western democracies are getting ready to pull something really nasty. Like they did in Syria.

So it's bullshit but you believe it...? :wacko:

[Niall_Quinn]

So it's bullshit but you believe it...? :wacko:

Is that what you really think I said or are you trying to make it seem like I said it? If this is just a case of you having difficulty thinking beyond the one dimensional then I get it, but obviously can't explain further because you'd be incapable of understanding. But if you are simply going for Internet points again, poor attempt.

The story has developed quite a bit anyway, with more contradictions coming from the uncoordinated propaganda wings of the US government. Everybody with at least rudimentary intelligence should be worried about this. Which means you, personally, don't need to be concerned.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Lots and lots of bullshit in the "news" about bio-labs and exploding nuclear plants and "expert" analysis on chemical weapons. Sounds like the western democracies are getting ready to pull something really nasty. Like they did in Syria.

I think you are confused.

It is not the west doing anything nasty, it is the Russians who are killing innocent civilians.

[Mac76]

I think you are confused.

It is not the west doing anything nasty, it is the Russians who are killing innocent civilians.

really Ollie, hasn't NQ taught you that nothing is EVER what it seems and it's all a big conspiracy - things can NEVER be what they seem otherwise he'd have to do something else with his life instead of trolling us all wiht his YouTube nutters :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

I think you are confused.

It is not the west doing anything nasty, it is the Russians who are killing innocent civilians.

Confused? I saw your post the other day. You managed to get 100% of your "facts" wrong. And I thought, he's young, naive, inexperienced and uninformed. But he has years to learn. So I left it alone. Now I see you are back to preach the gospel. And STILL getting your facts wrong. I may not give you many more chances.

[Niall_Quinn]

really Ollie, hasn't NQ taught you that nothing is EVER what it seems and it's all a big conspiracy - things can NEVER be what they seem otherwise he'd have to do something else with his life instead of trolling us all wiht his YouTube nutters :haha:

For a laugh, I'd love to hear you expert (euphemism for parroted) take on this issue. Not because I want to hear your borrowed wisdom, but because I want to tick it off against the legacy narrative and see if you get 100%

Must be a tough time for you champagne revolutionary dicks these days. Having to suck corporate cock and hate on your communist brethren. But I'm sure your don't have any problem holding multiple, competing views - as instructed.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Confused? I saw your post the other day. You managed to get 100% of your "facts" wrong. And I thought, he's young, naive, inexperienced and uninformed. But he has years to learn. So I left it alone. Now I see you are back to preach the gospel. And STILL getting your facts wrong. I may not give you many more chances.

Which country invaded Ukraine?
Which country is bombing cities and killing innocent civilians


The answer to the questions is the same, it’s Russia. No one else. You cant blame the west as much as you want too, the only country to blame is Russia.

[Niall_Quinn]

Which country invaded Ukraine?
Which country is bombing cities and killing innocent civilians


The answer to the questions is the same, it’s Russia. No one else. You cant blame the west as much as you want too, the only country to blame is Russia.

History began 2 weeks ago. Any fool knows that. Especially any fool.

[Globalgunner]

NQ, you have a lot of patience and Everest climbing levels of endurance. Once I have identified the numpties, I leave them well alone.

Ollie needs to go sign up to fight the evil Putin. UK government is giving free passes, and presumably, you wont lose your citizenship when trying to get back. When you get there you will have all the M16s you want, and your choice of Abrams tanks and Stinger missiles. Put your body where your mouth is man....Or are you like NATO. Keyboard and sanctions warriors.

US to Poland
"Give the Ukraine your MIG 29 planes"
Poland: "Ok come and deliver them"
"No, you do that"
"No, you do that"

[Xhaka Can’t]

Confused? I saw your post the other day. You managed to get 100% of your "facts" wrong. And I thought, he's young, naive, inexperienced and uninformed. But he has years to learn. So I left it alone. Now I see you are back to preach the gospel. And STILL getting your facts wrong. I may not give you many more chances.

You’re a touch more forgiving of those who agree with you when they get their facts wrong.

Also, your posts have aged horribly. Regardless of who is right or wrong, a populace has suffered greatly. As events unfolded, you flippantly dismissed the consequence of the military buildup and what was transparently unfolding.

I have a lot of respect for your commitment for what you believe in. However I think your judgement is clouded with bias. It almost always results in complete agreement with sources you cite.

I also have a lot of time for the questions you ask. Very often, they are the right questions and they make me think as well and in some ways have helped shape my views and skepticism. I very much believe, there is a ‘they’. I also believe this ‘they’ are motivated by two things and don’t care about impacts on us. Us being a loosely connected set of victims to varying degrees as they hoover up all the power and resources whilst letting us get on with fighting each other and blaming each other as we try to hold on to our diminishing scraps.

I just think you sometimes pick the wrong horse and double down every time that horse fucks it up. The mental gymnastics from you when clearly you’ve got it wrong is nowhere close to the standards of accuracy you demand of those with different views.

It isn’t healthy.

[Niall_Quinn]

You’re a touch more forgiving of those who agree with you when they get their facts wrong.

Also, your posts have aged horribly. Regardless of who is right or wrong, a populace has suffered greatly. As events unfolded, you flippantly dismissed the consequence of the military buildup and what was transparently unfolding.

I have a lot of respect for your commitment for what you believe in. However I think your judgement is clouded with bias. It almost always results in complete agreement with sources you cite.

I also have a lot of time for the questions you ask. Very often, they are the right questions and they make me think as well and in some ways have helped shape my views and skepticism. I very much believe, there is a ‘they’. I also believe this ‘they’ are motivated by two things and don’t care about impacts on us. Us being a loosely connected set of victims to varying degrees as they hoover up all the power and resources whilst letting us get on with fighting each other and blaming each other as we try to hold on to our diminishing scraps.

I just think you sometimes pick the wrong horse and double down every time that horse fucks it up. The mental gymnastics from you when clearly you’ve got it wrong is nowhere close to the standards of accuracy you demand of those with different views.

It isn’t healthy.

I know there is ONE enemy, ultimately, when you break it all down.

As a kid I studied Cold War geopolitics. That might sound ridiculous, but it wasn't because I wanted to be a politician, it was because I collaborated on table-top wargames and the early computer simulations and we always wanted to make that shit as realistic as possible. So we read our books and subscribed to our journals and had heated, nerdy debates about Soviet echelon strength versus limited NATO technological response and attrition rates long into the night. Some of us ended up producing (helping to produce - myself in a minor way) the databases for possibly the most realistic publicly available simulation ever created (discarded now for bullshit), one that was used in the 90s by NATO training programs. I still have off the shelf board games that were never played but repurposed to build new games focused on political and military conflict. I knew every piece of equipment on the battlefield, every senior figure that would command those pieces, not in a Top Trumps way, but down to terrain management, refuelling, labour and maintenance availability, adverse production penalties for re-supply given a changing political landscape and competing demands, personality profiles. Back then there was a wealth of material to draw on, the honest observations of generals and admirals and career politicians who seemed to be able to speak more freely. Not so today.

The point being...

I fully understood, and still do, what a sphere of influence is. And if you don't have a command of that knowledge you can't possibly know what is happening in the Ukraine or why it is happening. You can break it down to the emotional bullshit and throw out platitudes like war is bad. Of course it is. Who even needs to think about that? But war is sometimes a consequence, despite being the worst consequence. Actions have consequences. When you ignore those actions you lose the ability to comprehend the consequences. It all just becomes an enraged tweet or an impotent sanction. Then you do stupid, disconnected things that play into enemy hands at your expense.

I would also say, we are very, very lucky and we should be very, very grateful to Vladimir Putin and the people around him (both pro and con) we aren't all dead already. Not that I trust him to remain so restrained. We'll see. Back in the 80s and 90s, if this shit had happened we certainly would be dead, without a doubt. Russia has come a long way since those days and, contrary to the absolute bullshit being sold to rapid buyers by the mainstream media, seems to have accepted secondary status as a matter of pragmatism and realism. The US and it's "allies" (by which I mean lapdogs - absolute fucking SHAME On Germany, for instance, how humiliating), are still playing the primacy status and are causing the bipolar shift and return to the 80s and 90s we see unfolding before our eyes. It is ENTIRELY their fault and to their short term benefit. Because, I have to say, it doesn't seem as if there is a braincell operating on any level in the west, except maybe that French EU chick who seems to have a handle on things. Thank fuck for her or this would be a lot worse by now. Impressive woman, they should put her in charge. But the rest of them, they see a dollar (even though the dollar will die as a result of this) and that's all that matters. They even have the death of the dollar covered for their benefit. So they can play 4D chess, but only in the same way a fox calculates how to break into the chicken coup.

There was a moment for peace and the west did everything possible to derail it. Simple facts. Read the history books and the commentary from people who were involved at the time. This is not because they didn't want peace, it's because conflict suited their goals better. Peace was never considered as relevant. Can you imagine having to deal with people like that? When they will fuck you over for a balance sheet and never think once about you? Whether you are an individual or an entire nation?

Anyway, sure, I support Putin 100% in this and I'm absolutely happy to say it. I don't support him and the rest of the shit he does. But in this, 100%. It's actually a no-brainer. I'd be incredibly worried if one of the last holdouts against THEM didn't stand up when the red line was crossed. He may be the last chance we have. Doesn't look like WE'RE going to do anything to defend our own arses.

As for the people of Ukraine, which people do you mean? The Maidan crowd in the west? The population in the east? The crime lords in Odessa? Which people? There are many people, all disjointed, disconnected, with competing interests and (in some cases) rather dark outlooks. I, of course, will have immediate sympathy for civilians on the ground, regardless of their banner. Wouldn't want to to be me and mine. That's a human response. But that's not the world we live in. People can pretend if they like, but Ukraine exists in the same space as Syria, or Libya, or Yemen, or Iraq, or Afghanistan. And anyone who can be partially compassionate is a hypocrite, which means most. I don't want war but I also realise we are at a stage of human development where war still exists and at least if the more favourable combatant (in this case Russia) prevails it is a step in the right direction. I wonder where some of these heroes and victims stood when well documented atrocities were being conducted against their fellow countrymen? My sympathy wanes a little when I think of that. It evaporates when I think of the Ukrainian state as a political entity. Absolutely, I am totally against that horrific manifestation and the throwback to ultimately dark times it throws up. I'm very pleased to see Ukraine (the state) crushed. About time. Somebody had to put a stop to that shit rather than collaborating with it and making potential future atrocities even worse. I'm talking reality, not emotion.

Was it a good thing to bomb Germany? Discuss. What was the end goal? How do you equate the suffering? Were we advanced enough as a species to prevent it ever happening?

What about the atomic bomb? The arch-hypocrite and only user of such demonic power, smashing another nation with claims it threatens the world because of the very power the claimant previously unleashed. Hypocrisy aside, is it a simple calculation to determine who is right and wrong?

I have the unfair benefit of being able to analyse this without paying heed to the mainstream media. I fear you do not enjoy that privilege. Although you could.

Have my posts really aged badly? Show me.

[Niall_Quinn]

We have achieved a new low. Nothing is beyond us. With devotion and obedience we can plumb depths never before imagined.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=layPCRcM_s0

As for the rest of them. The ones with books and big words. They are conspiracy theorists, as we all know. I don't say we should kill them now. I say we should wait a bit for the insanity to ramp up, then it would only be sensible to kill them. After all, we don't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, we don't want Nazis to be stomping around again.

Oh, and Go Ukraine. Glory to Ukraine. Glory to the Defenders. Go Azov Brigade. Not Nazi at all - shameful to even report the reality. The Black Sun - pure, pure coincidence, with the emphasis on pure. Merch available on Amazon for your interest. Buying a Nazi T helps the struggling people of Ukraine who were born 2 weeks ago. And now for a virtuous signal - Black Lives Matter, unless they are from nations we are invading.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is there anyone on here who is man enough to admit they are embarrassed about their reaction to the Ukraine crisis?

I asked the question of myself first and I'm fine. No, I stand entirely behind everything I have said. Because I'm right, obviously. As any intelligent person must concede.

So, leaving aside unintelligent people who wouldn't know anyway, I am asking intelligent people who, understandably got conned, do you now regret your ridiculous reaction?

And, assuming you do, have you taken the time to read up on the history and the facts so you are better placed to make a moral and rational judgement, rather than be led like swine by the legacy media?

For those who read - AND ONLY THOSE WHO READ, I have been racking my brains to reason out a solution that could work in the real (not media) world. I can't find one. Anyone got a brilliant idea? Based on reality, mind you.

[Letters]

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/12/brits-offering-homes-to-ukrainian-refugees-will-receive-monthly-350-payment-16265215

That’s one way to deal with the rising cost of living, I guess

[dazthegooner]

Not sure how many spare rooms Boris and Carrie have but could be worth a nice few quid for them :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/12/brits-offering-homes-to-ukrainian-refugees-will-receive-monthly-350-payment-16265215

That’s one way to deal with the rising cost of living, I guess

Nice. Tory slum landlords can pack'em in and make bank. Which won't leave many for the virtue signallers - whew, that was close.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I know there is ONE enemy, ultimately, when you break it all down.

As a kid I studied Cold War geopolitics. That might sound ridiculous, but it wasn't because I wanted to be a politician, it was because I collaborated on table-top wargames and the early computer simulations and we always wanted to make that shit as realistic as possible. So we read our books and subscribed to our journals and had heated, nerdy debates about Soviet echelon strength versus limited NATO technological response and attrition rates long into the night. Some of us ended up producing (helping to produce - myself in a minor way) the databases for possibly the most realistic publicly available simulation ever created (discarded now for bullshit), one that was used in the 90s by NATO training programs. I still have off the shelf board games that were never played but repurposed to build new games focused on political and military conflict. I knew every piece of equipment on the battlefield, every senior figure that would command those pieces, not in a Top Trumps way, but down to terrain management, refuelling, labour and maintenance availability, adverse production penalties for re-supply given a changing political landscape and competing demands, personality profiles. Back then there was a wealth of material to draw on, the honest observations of generals and admirals and career politicians who seemed to be able to speak more freely. Not so today.

The point being...

I fully understood, and still do, what a sphere of influence is. And if you don't have a command of that knowledge you can't possibly know what is happening in the Ukraine or why it is happening. You can break it down to the emotional bullshit and throw out platitudes like war is bad. Of course it is. Who even needs to think about that? But war is sometimes a consequence, despite being the worst consequence. Actions have consequences. When you ignore those actions you lose the ability to comprehend the consequences. It all just becomes an enraged tweet or an impotent sanction. Then you do stupid, disconnected things that play into enemy hands at your expense.

I would also say, we are very, very lucky and we should be very, very grateful to Vladimir Putin and the people around him (both pro and con) we aren't all dead already. Not that I trust him to remain so restrained. We'll see. Back in the 80s and 90s, if this shit had happened we certainly would be dead, without a doubt. Russia has come a long way since those days and, contrary to the absolute bullshit being sold to rapid buyers by the mainstream media, seems to have accepted secondary status as a matter of pragmatism and realism. The US and it's "allies" (by which I mean lapdogs - absolute fucking SHAME On Germany, for instance, how humiliating), are still playing the primacy status and are causing the bipolar shift and return to the 80s and 90s we see unfolding before our eyes. It is ENTIRELY their fault and to their short term benefit. Because, I have to say, it doesn't seem as if there is a braincell operating on any level in the west, except maybe that French EU chick who seems to have a handle on things. Thank fuck for her or this would be a lot worse by now. Impressive woman, they should put her in charge. But the rest of them, they see a dollar (even though the dollar will die as a result of this) and that's all that matters. They even have the death of the dollar covered for their benefit. So they can play 4D chess, but only in the same way a fox calculates how to break into the chicken coup.

There was a moment for peace and the west did everything possible to derail it. Simple facts. Read the history books and the commentary from people who were involved at the time. This is not because they didn't want peace, it's because conflict suited their goals better. Peace was never considered as relevant. Can you imagine having to deal with people like that? When they will fuck you over for a balance sheet and never think once about you? Whether you are an individual or an entire nation?

Anyway, sure, I support Putin 100% in this and I'm absolutely happy to say it. I don't support him and the rest of the shit he does. But in this, 100%. It's actually a no-brainer. I'd be incredibly worried if one of the last holdouts against THEM didn't stand up when the red line was crossed. He may be the last chance we have. Doesn't look like WE'RE going to do anything to defend our own arses.

As for the people of Ukraine, which people do you mean? The Maidan crowd in the west? The population in the east? The crime lords in Odessa? Which people? There are many people, all disjointed, disconnected, with competing interests and (in some cases) rather dark outlooks. I, of course, will have immediate sympathy for civilians on the ground, regardless of their banner. Wouldn't want to to be me and mine. That's a human response. But that's not the world we live in. People can pretend if they like, but Ukraine exists in the same space as Syria, or Libya, or Yemen, or Iraq, or Afghanistan. And anyone who can be partially compassionate is a hypocrite, which means most. I don't want war but I also realise we are at a stage of human development where war still exists and at least if the more favourable combatant (in this case Russia) prevails it is a step in the right direction. I wonder where some of these heroes and victims stood when well documented atrocities were being conducted against their fellow countrymen? My sympathy wanes a little when I think of that. It evaporates when I think of the Ukrainian state as a political entity. Absolutely, I am totally against that horrific manifestation and the throwback to ultimately dark times it throws up. I'm very pleased to see Ukraine (the state) crushed. About time. Somebody had to put a stop to that shit rather than collaborating with it and making potential future atrocities even worse. I'm talking reality, not emotion.

Was it a good thing to bomb Germany? Discuss. What was the end goal? How do you equate the suffering? Were we advanced enough as a species to prevent it ever happening?

What about the atomic bomb? The arch-hypocrite and only user of such demonic power, smashing another nation with claims it threatens the world because of the very power the claimant previously unleashed. Hypocrisy aside, is it a simple calculation to determine who is right and wrong?

I have the unfair benefit of being able to analyse this without paying heed to the mainstream media. I fear you do not enjoy that privilege. Although you could.

Have my posts really aged badly? Show me.

It was interesting to hear you write about your background and how it shaped your interest in global geo-politics. Beyond that, it was a lot of words to say not very much of substance. There is nothing to support your argument as to why we should be grateful for Putin.

What has the Ukrainian to be grateful for? Or the Russian for that matter? I thought you were going to say something, then you just started going on about lack of brain cells.

Saying you support Putin 100%. Really?

I know the West is standing on quicksand whenever it points the finger, but 100%, Putin is a war criminal. And 100%, his country was in no danger whatsoever. Well, not from outside in any respect.

[WMUG]

Is Putin arresting protestors something you support, or is that part of "the other shit he does"?

[Niall_Quinn]

It was interesting to hear you write about your background and how it shaped your interest in global geo-politics. Beyond that, it was a lot of words to say not very much of substance. There is nothing to support your argument as to why we should be grateful for Putin.

What has the Ukrainian to be grateful for? Or the Russian for that matter? I thought you were going to say something, then you just started going on about lack of brain cells.

Saying you support Putin 100%. Really?

I know the West is standing on quicksand whenever it points the finger, but 100%, Putin is a war criminal. And 100%, his country was in no danger whatsoever. Well, not from outside in any respect.

100% and I explained why, but you are operating entirely on emotion, like you do with Trump.

You already know what my ultimate goal is, the eradication of all government wherever it exists. That will never change. If you want to deal with this on purely an emotional level then think of it this way. Who causes wars? The people of Russia? The people of Ukraine? You? Me? I don't think so. We know who causes wars. We know who gets to fight them and we know who ends up dead. So my eventual goal is far more emotionally virtuous if that's the level you want to operate on.

However, my end goal is nowhere in sight and very unlikely to be realised until the species develops further. So you are left with the current realities. Russia halting the globalists' march east is a better outcome that the globalists progressing with their one world government agenda. The one world government, a corporate autocracy, is the ultimate failure for the species. So I oppose it. 100%

In terms of Russia being in danger, again I refer you to Russia's sphere of influence. Some people ask, what if Russia stationed troops and missiles in Canada or Mexico. Or they point to Cuba and the west's response. But it's not like that at all, a much better analogy would be Russia stationing troops in a successionist Texas. In 1999 and 2004 Putin bit his tongue. But his equivalent of Texas is an understandable step too far. Which EVERY western analyst understood and agreed with - including Biden btw - when more serious people were making the decisions. Every one of them. I told you what would happen following the 2020 coup. I told you the crazies would be back with a vengeance. Do you recall? And here they are.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is Putin arresting protestors something you support, or is that part of "the other shit he does"?

Why would I support Putin arresting protestors? Did I agree with Trudeau arresting protestors? Have I agreed with Boris passing shitty laws to limit protest?

Can you point to one thing I have said that would lead you to ask such a strange question?

There's a big problem today where granularity has been eliminated from political, economic and even practical debate. You must believe ALL ideology, every bullet point, or you are automatically assumed to refute every point or be on the opposing "side".

I'm against everything that deprives individual of liberty. But we are at the foot of a mountain, nowhere near the summit. In fact we've got a shovel and we're digging. All of you vote for the least worst option, you admit as much. I don't do that for obvious reasons. But I'm eager to see the worst option suffer as many setbacks as possible because that's a good thing for the maximum number of people and, of course, myself.

[WMUG]

That is how I thought you'd react, but you did say you supported Putin 100% in this, and the arresting of protestors is part of it. Hence the modicum of doubt.

[Niall_Quinn]

That is how I thought you'd react, but you did say you supported Putin 100% in this, and the arresting of protestors is part of it. Hence the modicum of doubt.

I don't see how Putins domestic policies, which appear to be even more authoritarian than our own, are meaningfully connected to the situation in Ukraine. You might say if those protests grew large enough they might put pressure on Putin to withdraw from Ukraine, or accept some settlement that failed to secure Russian objectives? The trouble with that argument is you'd then have to concede Putin listens to the public. Which, in turn, destroys the narrative he's gone mad and is the next Hitler. Or, you could say you don't believe in the western propaganda, in which case Putin is not insane, is not Hitler and therefore might have legitimate (not legal, but legitimate) reasons for the actions he's taken. Not that he has taken these actions alone, of course. There's more than one centre of power in Moscow, unless you revert to the western propaganda. And around it goes.

Unfortunately, given the bad faith and track record of the west in such matters, sometime protests are not protests at all but rather a prelude to externally sponsored revolution, as we saw in Ukraine in 2014. I scan read a report the other day that suggested the US has directly intervened in the overthrow of 50 foreign governments since WWII. Which puts the Facebook ads that supposedly swung the 2016 US election into a suitably ridiculous light. So I'm not for the suppression of protest, not even the brutal and highly illegal suppression of the Canadian protest, but I can understand why an authoritarian like Putin might be. Because I don't agree with it doesn't mean Putin pays a blind bit of notice to what I believe or think. This is the mistake (deliberate in many cases) western observers are making. They are judging Putin's and Russia's actions based on our political systems (or the theatre we play out, at least), our military doctrine (for example, Shock and Awe - or mass murder to call it what it is) and our (not Russia's) economic and geopolitical interests.

A funny thing I saw this morning. Several "news" papers were running a shock story about Russia attacking military installations "just a few miles from the NATO border". Do you see how it works? The "NATO" border? Not Poland, not Hungary, not any supposedly independent nation, but the "NATO" border. Which NATO has continuously expanded up to the borders of Russia. By this logic, had Ukraine been absorbed by NATO, Russian exercises inside their own territory might be "just a few miles from the NATO border".

If you look at Lenin's strategy in 1917 you'd realise why the authoritarian regime in Canada was so panicked by the truckers. Lenin understood you don't need to confront the enemy on the battlefield to win a revolution. You just need to seize and control the vital chokepoints of a nation, like railway stations, factories, farms. Trudeau and his fascists understood this, as the truckers who move essential goods paralysed a city. And did you hear them complaining about "foreign funding" as they froze and tried to steal donations made by US citizens? I'm sure Putin appreciates the same threats, particularly as the west has openly called for his overthrow and are undoubtedly pouring funds into the effort.

Of course if the Russian and western governments actually represented their people none of this would be happening. But, for some reason, people want to be led by criminals and sadists. They even queue up to vote for shit like this. I can't figure it out, but each to their own.

[Letters]

https://metro.co.uk/2022/03/14/elon-musk-challenges-vladimir-putin-to-face-him-in-single-combat-16272014/

:lol:

[GP]

Musk is a cunt.

[Letters]

I don’t know about that.
He’s a bloody loony

[Niall_Quinn]

Musk is a cunt.

Maybe, maybe not. But he's certainly making you and your kind look like the laughing stocks you are.

https://yt3.ggpht.com/2mc1GMHb9vfHBCUZwvbccm0eFMF4gRlt_IpmWV76a7oDXYRliC T206ry2UU9yZRKEHddJRkIvuoOlQ=s1600-nd-v1

In the future people will write books about your lot - all of them cautionary tales.

[Marc Overmars]

£350 a month to take some Ukrainians into your home. :lol:
I think I’d be needing a lot more than that…

Why not stick them all in Buckingham Palace?

[Letters]

Why not stick them all in Buckingham Palace?
Some of them are quite young, and what with Prince Andrew popping in now and then that would probably be no safer than staying in Ukraine

[Letters]

£350 a month to take some Ukrainians into your home. :lol:
I think I’d be needing a lot more than that…
Oh, and

Racist :sulk:

[GP]

Eastern Europeans :bow:

[Letters]

They'd probably do up your house while they're staying. Might look into this tbf.

[dazthegooner]

They'd probably do up your house while they're staying. Might look into this tbf.

Seen your home improvement photo's that actually might be a good idea :)

[Letters]

Rude :angry:

[dazthegooner]

:mwah:

[Niall_Quinn]

£350 a month to take some Ukrainians into your home. :lol:
I think I’d be needing a lot more than that…

Why not stick them all in Buckingham Palace?

The government has no money. It steals money from British people and then skims half and hands it to its corporate masters, the other half it uses to provide shit quality bribes for votes. Reality. Love it or hate it but that's how it works.

As for refugees - there should be none coming here, logically and legally. How on earth, given the legal standing of legislation related to refugee status, can anyone be entitled to come here? Refugees are supposed to stop at the first port of call that provides them safe haven. That can never be the UK because it's a fucking island. Unless Norway or France gets invaded, I guess.

So the easy solution is to say, by law, no Ukrainians here, or any of the others who are pouring in daily. That's the law. If we followed the law it would be the habitual warmonger Poland that would have to deal with it's own historical and ongoing mess.

Why not Buckingham palace? Because rules for thee but not for me. You know that.

How are you doing getting a doctor's appointment? Has your school sent your kid home because there are no teachers? Be patient. How's your economy going, with the progressive "experts" in charge? Your standard of living? Your privacy rights? You freedom of movement? The fruits of your labour? And warmism still to bloom.

Time to wake up now I think. Smell the shit and see it for what it is.

Btw, I don't think any of these Ukrainian refugees offered solace to their own people who were being bombed and shelled by the government installed by murder. Not all of them maybe (I'd like to see a single instance though), but (like westerners who read the "news") they allowed themselves to be mindless puppets. They brought about a disaster for others they now face themselves. Is it poetic? Or justice? Not sure. But now they want something they didn't even think about affording to their fellow countrymen. Should we provide them with more than they were prepared to provide to their own?

My answer is, sadly, yes. Because I believe humanity trumps justice when matters of life and death are in play. But I doubt these very stupid people will learn any sort of lesson or reciprocate kindness with kindness. They already had a chance to be moral instead of stupid. They spurned it. I'd happily let the adults (so-called) perish because they had the chance to prove they were adults. But not the children who play no part in this.

So, unfortunately, we will have to suffer the theft of cash from your wallet and mine so it can be dished up it up to slum Tory landlords so their mates in their corrupt chamber can virtue signal - while they pump more weapons for profit and see more civilians get slaughtered.

It's fucking vile. But it's also normal.

[Letters]

As for refugees - there should be none coming here, logically and legally. How on earth, given the legal standing of legislation related to refugee status, can anyone be entitled to come here? Refugees are supposed to stop at the first port of call that provides them safe haven.

Is that true?
I mean, that's not the first time I've heard that, but I've also heard from a few sources that there is no legal requirement for them to do so.

[GP]

Is that true?


Not even slightly.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is that true?
I mean, that's not the first time I've heard that, but I've also heard from a few sources that there is no legal requirement for them to do so.

Look at the cunt directly above who dived in to diffuse the truth. Based on the cunt's vacuous proclamation, do YOU think it's true? You could always look it up.

Yeah. United Nations.

But then again, I believe the United Nations should be disbanded, for obvious reasons.

[Niall_Quinn]

Kiev is under heavy bombardment. Russians are indiscriminately targeting civilians. Uncountable casualties are piling up in the streets. Putin has grown a Hitler moustache and has taken to goose-stepping up and down Red Square. Inflation is Putin's fault. Electric cars run on magic energy. The NHS is the best health service in the world. Shergar won the Grand National, which hasn't been raced yet, but get with the program.

Oh fuck. Somebody shut this down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICD0XJ4bOGw

[Niall_Quinn]

So now for the average of the truth. I say average because it is so damn difficult to determine any truth in our "free" nation.

In the South, Russians have achieved total control. They control the north coast of the Black sea and the vital military infrastructure, plus the oil tracts the west is interested in (the euphemism for supporting the "brave" Nazis who are being decimated in Mariupol). Mariupol is home plate for the neo-Nazi battalions who have vowed to fight to the death. They are mingled with civilians, using them as human shields. Hardly surprising, seeing as they were shelling them just a few months ago.

In the east there are 40K+ Ukrainian forces entirely surrounded by Russian forces. "Civilian" corridors are being negotiated so Ukrainian military can strip their uniforms and blend with the crowd. This is why other Ukrainian forces are sabotaging the humanitarian corridors. It ain't as brave as you were led to believe. In fact, it's real rather than pretend. Go figure.

Nothing much has happened in the North. All the military stuff has been destroyed, as expected. But no "Shock and War CrimesAwe". The Russians have a huge convoy waiting to roll into Kiev (NOT Kyiv which is a made-up name - see your computer's spell check for details). According to western "experts" the South doesn't exist, the east doesn't exist and the North proves the Russian forces are incapable. Which is weird. Because if the Ghost of Kiev has taken down 3.2 million Russian and Tucker Carlson jets, why is it we need to send them jets? Don't the Ghost and the Shark Island crew blow ruskies away? It's almost as if the Ukrainian murder state is putting out Comical Ali style propaganda. Our western media would never buy such blatant bullshit, right?

Meanwhile, the "stalled" Russian convoy that is obliterating Kiev (see live cams above) is losing so badly we need to send as many weapons as profitable into Ukraine. If they are losing then why do we... Just send the weapons FFS. Kerching!

And Russian oil and gas continues to flow to Europe. With the banks that facilitate the contracts immune from crimes against the Russian peoplesanctions.

Far from me to suggest you have been lied to. I guess you already figured that out for yourself anyway, considering Iraq, the trillion dollar wealth transfer housing crash, Covid. The one thing you can always rely on is the media telling you the truth.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dear operatives, we have a new message we would like you to put out over the coming weeks. We're transmitting this in the clear because the mainstream media is already bought with our advertising budget. The message. Covid is a past problem, Ukraine is the new problem. We have the solution which involves rather large weapons procurements (purchased with taxpayer money), loaned to Ukraine (in full knowledge we'll never get the money back), so we can fight those damn Russians right down to the last Ukrainian.

Because we are virtuous.

Go to work guys.

PS. If people call you the most evil fuck that ever walked the planet, because you aren't a compromised world leader, you are just a citizen doing what you are told, thinking what you are told to think, rapidly retreat to your safe space and call your protagonist a racist. This should work for at least another 2 years until the un-batshitcrazy people catch up and hang your arse from a lamppost.

Maybe. There's no predicting stupid.

[Letters]

Do YOU think it's true? You could always look it up.
I did look it up.
But this is the problem, isn't it? Who do you believe?

It's Article 31 of the UN document which is often used as the basis for this claim. It says:


The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of Article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.

(my emphasis)
Source: https://www.unhcr.org/4ca34be29.pdf

But I found multiple sources which said that this doesn't mean they have to claim refuge in the first country they come to. For example:


The UN Refugee Convention does not make this requirement of refugees, and UK case law supports this interpretation. Refugees can legitimately make a claim for asylum in the UK after passing through other “safe” countries.

https://fullfact.org/immigration/refugees-first-safe-country/

People who claim that UN Article means what they say it does often have a certain agenda
The sites I found who refute that are often places which have a different agenda. I don't have legal training so who am I supposed to believe?
It's tricky, isn't it?

I would note that this has been tested in court. See paragraphs 17 and 18 of this ruling:

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/3ae6b6b41c.pdf

So, overall, it doesn't seem like this claim about them having to claim refuge in the first safe country is true.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah so you have the UN document on one side, the you have "FullFact" on the other. See the problem? Then you accuse other of having an agenda - that's quite funny actually. How bold you people have become.

The provisions, as they relate to the UK, allow for cases where family members already reside in the UK and, can't recall exactly, but a couple of other provisions that would make it acceptable to nominate the UK as a refuge.

[Letters]

Yeah so you have the UN document on one side, the you have "FullFact" on the other.
No, I have the UN on one side - with a statement which does not unambiguously say what you claim - it's open to interpretation.
I have FullFact on the other who say that this has been tested in UK courts, so I looked that up and found a ruling where a UK judge agreed that the UN Article does not mandate that a refugee must claim refuge in the first safe country.

And of course you have an agenda, we all do. Not a "kill all the Jews" agenda, but we're all biased and that affects what we believe. The trick is to be aware of that and try and account for it when assessing evidence. Easier said than done, admittedly

[Niall_Quinn]

No, I have the UN on one side - with a statement which does not unambiguously say what you claim - it's open to interpretation.
I have FullFact on the other who say that this has been tested in UK courts, so I looked that up and found a ruling where a UK judge agreed that the UN Article does not mandate that a refugee must claim refuge in the first safe country.

And of course you have an agenda, we all do. Not a "kill all the Jews" agenda, but we're all biased and that affects what we believe. The trick is to be aware of that and try and account for it when assessing evidence. Easier said than done, admittedly

Did you read through that court document? Within the next 5 minutes, seeing as you are online, what did you think of it?

[Letters]

Did you read through that court document? Within the next 5 minutes, seeing as you are online, what did you think of it?

I didn't read all 35 pages of legalese, no. But I read the part which deals with "coming directly", the paragraphs which I mentioned in my post. I read around it a bit too. If there's something I missed which you want to draw my attention to then I'll have a look.

[Niall_Quinn]

FullFact is one of the most notorious "charities" online. https://fullfact.org/about/funding/

It's role is to do precisely what you are reflecting on me, defend the "facts" and behaviour that represent the interests of multinationals and dismiss or "debunk" those "facts" that are inconvenient or expose contradictory information. This can descend to outright lies and absurd levels of denial that nonetheless prevail through repetition from many, well funded sources, timely distraction or shifting focus and context. One of the sillier, yet seriously defended examples, Biden is NOT handing out crack pipes, etc, etc.

So anyway, I did read the document YOU provided by didn't bother to read yourself. And that's how it works these days, people let big tech do their thinking for them and then brandish third-hand opinion as unimpeachable fact, regardless of how many times the "fact checkers" are exposed as mere propaganda devices funded by the very organisations they are supposed to be checking.

The court documents confirm in detail the regulations we're discussing, quite obviously because the case itself is a challenge brought on behalf of three criminals (status confirmed in the court documents) which offers excuses (based as much in academia as legal precedence, if not more) as a means to subvert the regulations. I suppose this particular court acted from misplaced compassion or some other emotional trigger, but certainly not by the letter of the law.

If we take this particular "test" as credible law, rather than an isolated emotional anomaly, it might act as precedent to effectively eliminate all border controls. Had you read the document you'd have heard about forged passports, clear intent to evade border authorities rather than present at earliest opportunity, undeniable criminal acts that would land you or I in prison yet are apparently excusable because "refugees" are fleeing from the violent hellhole of Italy or Poland to reach the first safe havens of the UK or Canada (mere coincidence both offer generous support packages while at the same time screwing native citizens into the ground).

The irony here is I'd see the UN disbanded today because I'm aware of what it really is, whereas most believe it to be a vital tool for preserving world peace. Yet, because we have it and therefore endure it in every practical sense (including the mountains of blasted and burned corpses its senior members serve up each year) here I am saying if you want it you should at least abide by its rules, yet those who defend it are quick to remind us rules are there to be broken. Like the judge in this case.

[Niall_Quinn]

Here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Rules-Radicals-Saul-David-Alinsky/dp/0679721134

This will help you understand how it works. Read it but obviously as an advisory and not an actual handbook. You'll see much of it in operation today, deployed by the "trusted" authorities that dispense "fact" and dismiss "misinformation".

I think I'll have to start quoting non-euphemisms to save on typing.

[Niall_Quinn]

From before the latest reset. Real journalists doing real work. You have names, dates, events all of which can be checked if you are in the slightest doubt. Worth remembering when you hear the Ukrainian slogans being chanted across the west. One day they can make you believe Nazis are bad, the next they they can make you believe they are heroes. Then they call you a Nazi if you spot the contradiction - which right now would be a... good? thing? Not sure. Very confusing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5Uf7aooxvE

[WMUG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAMz5kgb7V4

Interesting video on the Russian economy.

Stays pretty fact-based for the most part, doesn't really veer off into opinion (provocative title aside) and explained a few things I didn't know about, like how the Oligarchs got their hands on the USSR's money after it collapsed.

[Letters]

FullFact is one of the most notorious "charities" online.
When I pointed out the way Jimmy Dore lied in one of his videos you accused me of "shooting the messenger". Aren't you doing the same thing here?
For the record, I think it's pretty reasonable to do that - if you believe a source to be routinely unreliable and can give examples (which you haven't done here, by the way) then it's fairly reasonable to point that out.
But you're getting too bogged down with the source here, I can provide multiple other sources which say the same thing.
And you're getting too bogged down with the specifics of this case. It's not true that I didn't read it, but I didn't read every last word.
The relevant part for this conversation is the judge's ruling on coming directly:


In short it is the respondents’ contention that Article 31 allows the refugee no element of choice as to where he should claim asylum. He must claim it where first he may: only
considerations of continuing safety would justify impunity for further travel. 18. For my part I would reject this argument. Rather I am persuaded by the
applicants’ contrary submission, drawing as it does on the travaux préparatoires, various Conclusions adopted by UNHCR’s executive committee (ExCom), and the
writings of well respected academics and commentators (most notably Professor Guy Goodwin-Gill, Atle Grahl-Madsen, Professor James Hathaway and Dr Paul
Weis), that some element of choice is indeed open to refugees as to where they may properly claim asylum. I conclude that any merely short term stopover en
route to such intended sanctuary cannot forfeit the protection of the Article, and that the main touchstones by which exclusion from protection should be judged are
the length of stay in the intermediate country, the reasons for delaying there (even a substantial delay in an unsafe third country would be reasonable were the time
spent trying to acquire the means of travelling on), and whether or not the refugee sought or found there protection de jure or de facto from the persecution they were
fleeing

So... :shrug:


those who defend it are quick to remind us rules are there to be broken. Like the judge in this case.

The judge in this case goes on to quote the UNHCR's own guidelines which agrees with his interpretation of the law

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAMz5kgb7V4

Interesting video on the Russian economy.

Stays pretty fact-based for the most part, doesn't really veer off into opinion (provocative title aside) and explained a few things I didn't know about, like how the Oligarchs got their hands on the USSR's money after it collapsed.

Quite a clever report that makes western criminality, enacted through gangster organisations like the IMF, appear to be the only solution (if only the stupid victim would embrace the poison). Why do you think Russia became the phantom menace when Putin took power? I disagree with the 3/10 for Russian industry, mainly because that's beyond ridiculously stupid an misleading. There's so much more to Russia than oil. And three words were conspicuously absent throughout. China. India. Gold.

Besides. China is funding a buy now, pay later war effort. So there's no need to worry too much about ongoing financing.

[Niall_Quinn]

When I pointed out the way Jimmy Dore lied in one of his videos you accused me of "shooting the messenger". Aren't you doing the same thing here?
For the record, I think it's pretty reasonable to do that - if you believe a source to be routinely unreliable and can give examples (which you haven't done here, by the way) then it's fairly reasonable to point that out.
But you're getting too bogged down with the source here, I can provide multiple other sources which say the same thing.
And you're getting too bogged down with the specifics of this case. It's not true that I didn't read it, but I didn't read every last word.
The relevant part for this conversation is the judge's ruling on coming directly:



So... :shrug:



The judge in this case goes on to quote the UNHCR's own guidelines which agrees with his interpretation of the law

Still amazes me why you can't just pose an argument based in truth and you feel the need to blatantly lie to make your point. I gave very specific examples of how only a fool would accept Full"fact" as a reliable arbiter. But I guess you do what you do.

I guess Dore's rather obvious observations upset you? Any human being can get with what he's saying. What's left might dig around the "fact" checkers for diversion from the intent. Jimmy once said something that's technically wrong - therefore his calls for a decent living wage for human beings is bullshit! And his observations about warmongers and their dupes can be diluted to sting a little less. Yeah, Dore's the bad guy. FullFact is where you'll find the truth. Full scrutiny for Jimmy. A free pass for the socially concerned and virtuous corporations. Makes a whole lot of sense if you have enough to hide.

Again, it's why a routinely ask you if you are genuinely a Christian.

Yeah, yeah. You didn't read it but BOOM - thanks for your ruling on the details and sorry for getting "bogged down" in doing the job you should have done before presenting your copy/ paste "research". Come on now Letters, taking the high ground from a ditch? I said you blindly follow authority and here you are proving it. You think it's me with the problem because I won't poke my own eyes out with a stick and get with the utopia?

[Letters]

Still amazes me why you can't just pose an argument based in truth and you feel the need to blatantly lie to make your point. I gave very specific examples of how only a fool would accept Full"fact" as a reliable arbiter.
Well, you didn't, did you? You made a load of assertions, backed up by nothing, you linked to their own page where they list their donors - why would they make that public if there is anything nefarious going on? The only "specific" thing you said is: "Biden is NOT handing out crack pipes, etc, etc."
I found something about that on Snopes - and a commentary of it on Sky News Australia which I know is an incredibly biased source.
I couldn't find anything on fullfact about it, but if there's something I missed then let me know.
Where's your "specific example"? You only gave one, and I can't even see anything about that on fullfact. So how is that relevant?

And you dodged the issue - which is "shooting the messenger". You grumble when I do it, but here you're doing it yourself. And as I said, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at whether a source is biased or lying, just don't complain when I do it.


I guess Dore's rather obvious observations upset you?
The fact he deliberately misrepresented an article by cherry picking from it and, at one point, deliberately misquoting from it upset me.
Doesn't it upset you that he presented an article and by doing the above made it look like it said the exact opposite of what it actually said?
Isn't that the sort of thing you rail against? Don't you care that Dore did it?
And no, that doesn't mean everything he says is wrong, but it does mean you shouldn't take everything he says at face value. If you don't then fine.
I never said he was the "bad guy", but he's not the good guy either. He is biased, as we all are, he might be making videos which pander to his audience for the clicks. And no, no free pass for anyone, scrutiny for everyone. As I said on this particular issue I happened to post a link from fullfact but I found multiple other sources which agreed with them, and I looked up the judge's ruling which fullfact referenced and found it to be accurate.


You didn't read it but BOOM
Well yeah, BOOM. I read the relevant parts. I don't care if these blokes were criminals, we aren't talking about the specifics of this case. This conversation is about "coming directly" and what Article 31 really means - does it mean that refugees HAVE to claim refuge in the first country they come to. You could certainly read it that way. But here's a judge - you know, a person whose literal job it is to make rulings about stuff like that - saying that he doesn't agree it means that. Is that not relevant to this conversation?


I said you blindly follow authority and here you are proving it.
Well. The authority in this case is a judge. So yeah, I mean we're talking about the law. If a judge isn't a relevant authority to be looking to here then who the hell is?

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60850209

That'll sort it out :cool:

[Mac76]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60850209

That'll sort it out :cool:

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, you didn't, did you? You made a load of assertions, backed up by nothing, you linked to their own page where they list their donors - why would they make that public if there is anything nefarious going on? The only "specific" thing you said is: "Biden is NOT handing out crack pipes, etc, etc."
I found something about that on Snopes - and a commentary of it on Sky News Australia which I know is an incredibly biased source.
I couldn't find anything on fullfact about it, but if there's something I missed then let me know.
Where's your "specific example"? You only gave one, and I can't even see anything about that on fullfact. So how is that relevant?

And you dodged the issue - which is "shooting the messenger". You grumble when I do it, but here you're doing it yourself. And as I said, I don't think it's unreasonable to look at whether a source is biased or lying, just don't complain when I do it.


The fact he deliberately misrepresented an article by cherry picking from it and, at one point, deliberately misquoting from it upset me.
Doesn't it upset you that he presented an article and by doing the above made it look like it said the exact opposite of what it actually said?
Isn't that the sort of thing you rail against? Don't you care that Dore did it?
And no, that doesn't mean everything he says is wrong, but it does mean you shouldn't take everything he says at face value. If you don't then fine.
I never said he was the "bad guy", but he's not the good guy either. He is biased, as we all are, he might be making videos which pander to his audience for the clicks. And no, no free pass for anyone, scrutiny for everyone. As I said on this particular issue I happened to post a link from fullfact but I found multiple other sources which agreed with them, and I looked up the judge's ruling which fullfact referenced and found it to be accurate.


Well yeah, BOOM. I read the relevant parts. I don't care if these blokes were criminals, we aren't talking about the specifics of this case. This conversation is about "coming directly" and what Article 31 really means - does it mean that refugees HAVE to claim refuge in the first country they come to. You could certainly read it that way. But here's a judge - you know, a person whose literal job it is to make rulings about stuff like that - saying that he doesn't agree it means that. Is that not relevant to this conversation?


Well. The authority in this case is a judge. So yeah, I mean we're talking about the law. If a judge isn't a relevant authority to be looking to here then who the hell is?

We aren't talking about the specifics of the case? Oh, okay. If we're not examining the facts of the case then I guess there's no need to question the ruling, we just take it at face value based on the authority of the judge. Thanks, you made my argument for me.

[Niall_Quinn]

Saint Zelenskyy and his facist regime are having a hard time keeping their masks in place. Seems like the Ukraine love-in is running out of steam as people start to realise just how horrific the regime is. Will lessons be learned? No. Will the same thing happen the next time the west supports terrorists and Nazis? Yes.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Saint Zelenskyy and his facist regime are having a hard time keeping their masks in place. Seems like the Ukraine love-in is running out of steam as people start to realise just how horrific the regime is. Will lessons be learned? No. Will the same thing happen the next time the west supports terrorists and Nazis? Yes.

If ever there was a post that said nothing at all. This is it.

[Niall_Quinn]

If ever there was a post that said nothing at all. This is it.

Use your imagination. Or a history book.

It's like Bush said, "There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, 'Fool me once, shame on...shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again.'"

So. What's your opinion on global warming?

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60850209

That'll sort it out :cool:

According to the mainstream media (be advised) many people are so furious with Russia they are pouring bottles of Smirnoff (which I assume they already paid for, so "Russia" already has their cash) down the drain. I don't know how many people, hopefully not as many as put little Ukrainian flags next to their personal pronouns. You have to hope it isn't too many because it would be easy to con people like that into supporting a shooting war with Russia. Which is what certain crazies in Washington and London, liberated from their padded cells by the Biden administration, are trying to provoke. Chain enough acts of ignorance and idiocy together and pour on a frenzy of emotion and very bad things can happen. Things nobody would actually want to happen. But some people don't see it coming and they don't appreciate how their one act of idiocy, however small, is still a link in the chain.

We've reached a stage where it is better to be entirely ignorant of a situation than "informed" by authorities and the media. The ignorant are less likely to be engaged. They are less dangerous.

[Globalgunner]

According to the mainstream media (be advised) many people are so furious with Russia they are pouring bottles of Smirnoff (which I assume they already paid for, so "Russia" already has their cash) down the drain. I don't know how many people, hopefully not as many as put little Ukrainian flags next to their personal pronouns. You have to hope it isn't too many because it would be easy to con people like that into supporting a shooting war with Russia. Which is what certain crazies in Washington and London, liberated from their padded cells by the Biden administration, are trying to provoke. Chain enough acts of ignorance and idiocy together and pour on a frenzy of emotion and very bad things can happen. Things nobody would actually want to happen. But some people don't see it coming and they don't appreciate how their one act of idiocy, however small, is still a link in the chain.

We've reached a stage where it is better to be entirely ignorant of a situation than "informed" by authorities and the media. The ignorant are less likely to be engaged. They are less dangerous.

Idiots dont even know that Smirnoff was long ago bought by the Anglo Canadian megalith Diageo. People are so dumb. Government presses the button "hate Russia" and off they go.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Saint Zelenskyy and his facist regime are having a hard time keeping their masks in place. Seems like the Ukraine love-in is running out of steam as people start to realise just how horrific the regime is. Will lessons be learned? No. Will the same thing happen the next time the west supports terrorists and Nazis? Yes.

You keep banging on about nazis yet Russia is literally forcing Ukrainians into labour camps, funnily enough just like the nazis did. The russians are also committing horrendous war crimes including bombing places with children in it, again just like nazis did.

Although i suspect you will claim its all fake news because in your own words “ I support Putin 100% in this and I'm absolutely happy to say it.” so its good to know you support war crimes while banging on about nonsense that Zelensky is a nazi (let’s remember he is Jewish and lost family in the holocaust”

[Letters]

We aren't talking about the specifics of the case?
No, we're talking about Article 31 and what it means - I'd suggest it's open to interpretation.


we just take it at face value based on the authority of the judge.

Well yeah. He's a judge. His literal job is to make rulings like this. And he's clear about how he interprets Article 31 - not in the context of this case in particular, he's just saying he is not persuaded by the argument being made - which is the same argument you are making. This isn't the UN vs fullfact, it's you vs a judge. I know you distrust all authority, but when we are talking about interpretation of law then a judge literally has the authority to do that. Just going "nuh-uh" isn't really a counter argument. If other judges have made different rulings about this then OK, that's more relevant.

[Letters]

We've reached a stage where it is better to be entirely ignorant of a situation than "informed" by authorities and the media.
I am pretty ignorant of the history and politics around all of this so am pretty much keeping out of it.
I am rolling my eyes about some FB friends who all but punch the air at every sanction against Russia - many of which are affecting the ordinary Russian population, not Putin et al.
I'm not saying there should be no response but I'm not sure what that response should be. Doing things which will push millions in Russia in to poverty doesn't feel like the right thing to do.

[LDG]

I am pretty ignorant of the history and politics around all of this so am pretty much keeping out of it.
I am rolling my eyes about some FB friends who all but punch the air at every sanction against Russia - many of which are affecting the ordinary Russian population, not Putin et al.
I'm not saying there should be no response but I'm not sure what that response should be. Doing things which will push millions in Russia in to poverty doesn't feel like the right thing to do.

Funny because thats what we do in the UK to our own

[Niall_Quinn]

You keep banging on about nazis yet Russia is literally forcing Ukrainians into labour camps, funnily enough just like the nazis did. The russians are also committing horrendous war crimes including bombing places with children in it, again just like nazis did.

Although i suspect you will claim its all fake news because in your own words “ I support Putin 100% in this and I'm absolutely happy to say it.” so its good to know you support war crimes while banging on about nonsense that Zelensky is a nazi (let’s remember he is Jewish and lost family in the holocaust”

When you place that quote back into context I'll be happy to answer. But, for now, it's sufficient to compare your own propaganda with media propaganda and spot the differences - of which there are none.

[Niall_Quinn]

No, we're talking about Article 31 and what it means - I'd suggest it's open to interpretation.



Well yeah. He's a judge. His literal job is to make rulings like this. And he's clear about how he interprets Article 31 - not in the context of this case in particular, he's just saying he is not persuaded by the argument being made - which is the same argument you are making. This isn't the UN vs fullfact, it's you vs a judge. I know you distrust all authority, but when we are talking about interpretation of law then a judge literally has the authority to do that. Just going "nuh-uh" isn't really a counter argument. If other judges have made different rulings about this then OK, that's more relevant.

Except that's not what I'm saying. The implication of what I'm saying is this judge proposes refugees who have committed criminal acts have superior rights to your own. Why don't you try doing what these refugees did and see if this judge will defend your actions? I can almost hear the key being thrown away.

[Ollie the Optimist]

When you place that quote back into context I'll be happy to answer. But, for now, it's sufficient to compare your own propaganda with media propaganda and spot the differences - of which there are none.

There is no context where a man who commits war crimes is right. You stated you support him 100%. There is no justifiable context that can defend that.

[Globalgunner]

Truthbombs about Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A86uIO2Pq_0&ab_channel=iRolls

Never heard of this woman before. She left those TV hosts quaking in their underwear

[Xhaka Can’t]

Truthbombs about Ukraine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A86uIO2Pq_0&ab_channel=iRolls

Never heard of this woman before. She left those TV hosts quaking in their underwear

Wow!

All the Greatest Hits are here:

Side 1

1. Buy in to the Democratic Narrative
2. Bio-weapons Labs in Ukraine
3. They Lied about Covid
4. They Lied about Russian Collusion (extended version)
5. Election Fraud! (not talking about Russia)
6. They Lied about Ukraine Impeachment Trial

Side 2

7. You Can See them On-line Holding up the NATO Flag (and the SWASTIKA!)
8. They’re Murdering their way Across the East of Ukraine
9. The Western Ukraine are Nazis
10. These are the Actual Nazis from the Second World War (gotta say Zelensky is looking good)
11. Satanic
12. I’m Only Asking Questions
13. Don’t Listen to the Election Results



Bonus Track: The Women Soldiers Wear the Black Sign of the Occult

Look out for the second volume of Truthbomb’s Greatest Hits coming soon - with timeless classics such as, The Democrats are Eating our Babies!

And many more!!!!

From KKK-tel!

[Globalgunner]

Thanks for the free advertising. Greatly appreciated

[Letters]

:haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

There is no context where a man who commits war crimes is right. You stated you support him 100%. There is no justifiable context that can defend that.

You are young. There's no hard and fast rule that says you will always be idiotic. One day you will learn how to debate with integrity. Not today, But it will arrive.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wow!

All the Greatest Hits are here:

Side 1

1. Buy in to the Democratic Narrative
2. Bio-weapons Labs in Ukraine
3. They Lied about Covid
4. They Lied about Russian Collusion (extended version)
5. Election Fraud! (not talking about Russia)
6. They Lied about Ukraine Impeachment Trial

Side 2

7. You Can See them On-line Holding up the NATO Flag (and the SWASTIKA!)
8. They’re Murdering their way Across the East of Ukraine
9. The Western Ukraine are Nazis
10. These are the Actual Nazis from the Second World War (gotta say Zelensky is looking good)
11. Satanic
12. I’m Only Asking Questions
13. Don’t Listen to the Election Results



Bonus Track: The Women Soldiers Wear the Black Sign of the Occult

Look out for the second volume of Truthbomb’s Greatest Hits coming soon - with timeless classics such as, The Democrats are Eating our Babies!

And many more!!!!

From KKK-tel!

Seriously though. You said I said nothing after after the Pentagon started exposing mainstream lies. Maybe you didn't see that. But what the fuck are you saying here? I want to understand but it's incomprehensible and contradictory. It's almost as if you are arguing the virtuous side while trying to maintain the propaganda. Well, that's not possible.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Seriously though. You said I said nothing after after the Pentagon started exposed mainstream lies. Maybe you didn't see that. But what the fuck are you saying here? I want to understand but it's incomprehensible and contradictory. It's almost as if you are arguing the virtuous side while trying to maintain the propaganda. Well, that's not possible.

I cited all the horseshit in that video.

Actually, I only cited some of it.

Fuck me, it was a complete fucking travesty

[Niall_Quinn]

I cited all the horseshit in that video.

Actually, I only cited some of it.

Fuck me, it was a complete fucking travesty

You are lost. Somewhere in the middle. I get the feeling you can't face the facts. That's a good thing. At least you haven't blindly accepted , without thought. The fact your are thrashing means you aren't blind.

[Niall_Quinn]

Let me spell it out.

WE ARE THE BAD GUYS.

Okay?

[Niall_Quinn]

How demonic are the people you are relying on to tell the truth?

That's an interesting question.

Answer is, demonic is demonic? There are no graduations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82pOL361zUk

Is this real or not? Maybe it's better if it's not real/ Maybe it's better to be in denial.

[Globalgunner]

They have been lying for decades
Lied about Vietnam
Lied about Cuba
Lied about 911
Lied about Iraq
Lied about Syria
Lied about Libya
But some people still need to believe.

Not believing would so mess up their world view it would completely discombobulate their whole existence.
Hard not to feel some sympathy

[Globalgunner]

Hows that conflicting going on btw?

According to the Beeb. The Ukraine is winning handily.
I heard otherwise. Mariupul fell yesterday. The bastion of those lovers of democracy the Azov battalion.

Wanna buy some gas? Best arm yourself with some Roubles or preferably Gold.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Let me spell it out.

WE ARE THE BAD GUYS.

Okay?

We are the bad guys.

But its all relative.

Compared to the Russian government, we’re the good guys here.

And compared to the lot of us, Ukraine are the good guys.

[Xhaka Can’t]

They have been lying for decades
Lied about Vietnam
Lied about Cuba
Lied about 911
Lied about Iraq
Lied about Syria
Lied about Libya
But some people still need to believe.

Not believing would so mess up their world view it would completely discombobulate their whole existence.
Hard not to feel some sympathy

You’re deliberately making things up if you think people here believe we havent been lied to. Some of us even protested against some of those crimes rather than being internet warriors.

And we did that because we have a world view and aren’t conflating the obviously criminal invasion of Ukraine with your list, precisely because we can take a view on a conflict in its own right.

You are delusional and almost always entirely wrong when you post here and I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

[Xhaka Can’t]

You are lost. Somewhere in the middle. I get the feeling you can't face the facts. That's a good thing. At least you haven't blindly accepted , without thought. The fact your are thrashing means you aren't blind.

There are many people who are worse off than those that are lost.

They are the people that are certain and confident they are certain. Even though they are lost.

You’ve gone so deep down the rabbit hole, all you can see - in every direction, just adds to your confidence, even though you are more clueless than those of us that are ‘lost’.

Because at least I’m aware I’m lost and trying to make the best of what I can rely on.

[Globalgunner]

You’re deliberately making things up if you think people here believe we havent been lied to. Some of us even protested against some of those crimes rather than being internet warriors.

And we did that because we have a world view and aren’t conflating the obviously criminal invasion of Ukraine with your list, precisely because we can take a view on a conflict in its own right.

You are delusional and almost always entirely wrong when you post here and I have absolutely no sympathy for you.

Just words and none of it believable. You dont believe the government you say ...except on this one instance. Seems thou dost protest too much.

Save your sympathy for yourself. You may need it this winter

[Xhaka Can’t]

Tell me where I have said I believe the government. Just one example.

I may end up on the same side of the fence as the government. Just as Stalin ended up on the same side of the fence as Roosevelt. Doesn’t mean I believe a fucking word they say or that what they say is believable.

And no, it isn’t just words. It’s my views, my thoughts.

You’re just NQ lite.

Dum to his Dee.

[Globalgunner]

You sound injured. Someone hurt your feefees?. Poor thing

[Xhaka Can’t]

You sound injured. Someone hurt your feefees?. Poor thing

Dum to the Dee.

At least NQ is fun.

[GP]

Dum to the Dee.

At least NQ is fun.

https://i.imgur.com/XeL3AC1.gif

[Niall_Quinn]

We are the bad guys.

But its all relative.

Compared to the Russian government, we’re the good guys here.

And compared to the lot of us, Ukraine are the good guys.

No, it's not relative. It's absolute. There is no equivalency. The Russian government can be bad all by itself, without comparison to our own abominations. The Russian government is bad because it is government. Our government is bad because it is government. By definition, government is bad. This is not a theory or opinion, it is measurement of the facts. Then the question becomes, what can we do? What can we change? It's not the Russian government.

You really must read up on Ukraine. It is surely the most foul in terms of those measurements. When you strip away the propaganda, which could just as easily see you berating them depending on the agenda of the day (because there is so much to berate), the horrific facts remain. Ukrainian civilians have suffered slaughter since 2014 and yet we heard none of this and refrained from waving our flags and expressing our outrage. Now that the world has begun, in 2022, we are all so energised.

As I said, we are the bad guys.

[Niall_Quinn]

There are many people who are worse off than those that are lost.

They are the people that are certain and confident they are certain. Even though they are lost.

You’ve gone so deep down the rabbit hole, all you can see - in every direction, just adds to your confidence, even though you are more clueless than those of us that are ‘lost’.

Because at least I’m aware I’m lost and trying to make the best of what I can rely on.

I didn't mean it as an insult. Rather an observation that was based on what I could sense.

And you are right. Eventually this shit will bring us all down to its level.

People asked how could it happen, how could human beings behave in such a manner through the years of 1941-1945? Well we have been learning the answer. Soon there will be no humanity, only the thing that has replaced it. Systematically. Cheered on by those who will lose the most. We've turned that question on its head. Now we ask, why should we not support Nazis when the man tells us, without a hint of irony or self reflection, there is something even worse out there. And there always will be from now on. Some fear that drives us forwards into the pit.

Regardless of the depressing human conditions, facts remain. Facts are map markers that prevent total loss.

[Letters]

Regardless of the depressing human conditions, facts remain. Facts are map markers that prevent total loss.
Ah, but how does one determine what the facts are?

You said something (in a post I meant to respond to, and started to, but then didn't finish and the moment went, and now can't find*) about how the truth will emerge from the plethora of sources we now have access to.
I don't see how that follows. Having a single authoritative source is obviously a bad thing. But the situation we have now - where anyone can start a web site/blog/YouTube and, with a fair wind, get millions of followers. And where everyone can find a source which panders to their particular worldview and prejudices. That doesn't seem better. Now we have people even more entrenched in their own worldviews and it's harder than ever to determine the truth.

The best you can do is cross reference sources, look at whether the things you're watching/reading are primary sources, or quoting them at least. But even that isn't watertight.

*I did find it in the end. It was in this thread, which I thought it was, but earlier in the thread than I remembered:

It's not in the least depressing. The more that speak the better it gets because it's from that endless exchange the truth will emerge. Eventually.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ah, but how does one determine what the facts are?

You said something (in a post I meant to respond to, and started to, but then didn't finish and the moment went, and now can't find*) about how the truth will emerge from the plethora of sources we now have access to.
I don't see how that follows. Having a single authoritative source is obviously a bad thing. But the situation we have now - where anyone can start a web site/blog/YouTube and, with a fair wind, get millions of followers. And where everyone can find a source which panders to their particular worldview and prejudices. That doesn't seem better. Now we have people even more entrenched in their own worldviews and it's harder than ever to determine the truth.

The best you can do is cross reference sources, look at whether the things you're watching/reading are primary sources, or quoting them at least. But even that isn't watertight.

*I did find it in the end. It was in this thread, which I thought it was, but earlier in the thread than I remembered:

Do you mean to say you don't have the brains to figure it out? How many data points do you need to make a judgment? You have history books. So many it's hard to know where to start. What's the commonality in all of them, once the bias has been accounted for? You have news archives on tap. Where are the discrepancies? Where are the 180 degree shifts? Where does the story change in conjunction with agendas? What about patterns? I've reached the stage now where I can decipher a BBC article with my eyes closed. But that came about from years of watching how they operate, what they put out and what they concealed. When and how they did their about turns so that the truth of yesterday became the lies of today.

You don't need to deep dive all of it. You just need to spot the discrepancies, rather than excuse them by default. And then apply some reason to the countervailing arguments. If you can't tell the difference between Internet bullshit and a properly structured an reasoned rebuttal, based on the historical evidence and the contradictions in the protagonists own statements, then you aren't trying hard enough.

[Globalgunner]

The facts are whatever the BBC says they are. A few months ago the Ukrazies were NeoNazies, now they are just right wing

[Ollie the Optimist]

The facts are whatever the BBC says they are. A few months ago the Ukrazies were NeoNazies, now they are just right wing

Out of interest, you never seem to mention Russia use of the mercenary group, the Wagner group, which Putin employs. Their leader has literally SS symbols tattooed to him but because they are Russian, guess you support them given you seem to be so against Ukraine

[Letters]

Do you mean to say you don't have the brains to figure it out?
I mean it's basically impossible to figure it out. It's not about brains, it's about discernment.

Let's take a trivial example, the Will Smith thing. I have deliberately picked an example which is all fluff and nonsense and doesn't really matter. I've seen a load of people asserting that it was all staged. My gut feeling is that it wasn't. Because Smith looked genuinely angry, he swore loudly twice which he surely wouldn't have done in a staged incident - it meant they cut the live feed - and during an ad break he was filmed visibly upset and being comforted, at a time when in theory he wasn't even on camera, it just happened that someone in the audience filmed it.
And sure, they're all actors, they could have staged it, they could have had a stooge film the amateur footage during the break. I am currently in a boring FB argument with someone about it on FB who is asserting with great confidence - a confidence he can't possibly have - that it was staged.

Because the honest truth is - I don't know, nor do you, nor does this dude on FB or the people online who are claiming it was all staged. The only people who really know are Will Smith and Chris Rock, and maybe some of their inner circles. I can form an opinion and make a judgement, as can you. We might come to different conclusions. But neither of us know for sure we're right. And that's just a simple incident between 2 people. When it comes to complex world events like Covid or the Ukraine situation, there's so much claim and counter claim, so much data we can look at but we can't possibly gather it for ourselves and know whether it's accurate. Making sense of it all is really difficult.

The best I can do is relate the news I see to the reality of the world around me and see if it makes sense to me. With Covid, I can talk to medical professionals I know, I can talk to friends who have had Covid or lost relatives to it. With Ukraine I can talk to my Polish colleagues, and the dev lead who is Ukrainian and has family in Kyiv. That gives me some first hand knowledge of what's going on, or close to. But even then it's just their perspective.

And of course our worldview and biases there has an impact on the way we assess information. You believe government is bad. I believe it's flawed but necessary. And so on. And sure, we can read books. But those are written by people, they have their worldview and biases which influences what they write and, maybe more importantly, don't write.

We do have quite different worldviews, but one difference between us is your rock solid confidence in your ability to know what's going on, what people's intentions are and what is going to happen next. Your record in these regards is not as spot on as you seem to imagine.

[Globalgunner]

So youre saying a man who just picked up an Oscar for best actor.......Might not have been acting a script because he looked genuinely upset. Mmmmmm

[Letters]

So youre saying a man who just picked up an Oscar for best actor.......Might not have been acting a script because he looked genuinely upset. Mmmmmm
Well no, I mentioned several things which makes me think it wasn't pre-planned. The one you mention on its own is only part of what forms my opinion. Why are you ignoring the other things I mentioned to strawman me?

But what I'm really saying is you don't know the truth about this any more than I do.
We both have opinions, and it's interesting that our respective biases have led us to different conclusions about this, as they do many things.
Which was pretty much my point. What is the truth? The real answer is we don't know. Your level of confidence in your opinion doesn't make you right.

We have been presented with the same information, the truth is neither of us know the correct answer. And that's the issue.

[Niall_Quinn]

Out of interest, you never seem to mention Russia use of the mercenary group, the Wagner group, which Putin employs. Their leader has literally SS symbols tattooed to him but because they are Russian, guess you support them given you seem to be so against Ukraine

What's the logical endpoint for your criticism? Because Putin is a bad guy it is therefore okay to wave flags for Ukrainian Nazis and pretend they didn't slaughter 10,000 innocent civilians before official history began? You don't have to condone reality in order to acknowledge the reality.

The key facts that matter are simple to determine, even from the approved mainstream media sources.

The west has been expanding NATO eastwards, an aggressive posture with follow-through that runs counter to the very purpose of that organisation. NATO is the bad actor.

The west assisted in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014, supporting neo-Nazi elements that formed the spearhead of the coup. NATO and the Ukrainian neo-Nazis are the bad actors.

Since 2014 the Ukrainian state has been waging a brutal repression of its own citizens in the east, with neo-Nazi units (now merged into the official Ukrainian defence forces) committing all manner of atrocities against initially helpless people and then against those same people once they had armed themselves. The Ukrainian state and its neo-Nazi agents are the bad actors.

Russia has intervened in response to the aggression of NATO and the aggression of the Ukrainian state and its neo-Nazi agents. Because this runs contrary to International law, because it poses a serious threat to civilians caught on the ground, Russia becomes a bad actor.

We now have 3 bad actors engaged in a shooting war. Created by the west, serviced by Ukraine and now joined by Russia. That's if you accept history did not begin in 2022, as the mainstream media would now have you believe.

So. When you are instructed to wave a flag, which one do you choose? You may say the Ukrainian flag because Ukraine is attempting to preserve its "independence" and national sovereignty. But you have to wonder if they have earned the right, given the oppression of Ukrainians in the east who want to preserve their culture, language and lives and have thus demanded the same rights of independence and self-determination so vocally championed by the neo-Nazi collaborator in Kiev.

The question then becomes, when you wave your Ukrainian flag - WHICH Ukraine? The west or the east? The ones doing the killing (before a Russian boot hit Ukrainian soil) or the ones being killed (at least until resistance was mounted).

It's worth knowing what you mean when you wave that flag and utter that slogan (which is the very same slogan used by actual Nazis in Ukraine when they were fighting Russians and slaughtering Jews). Again, history books. Worth the read.

[Niall_Quinn]

I mean it's basically impossible to figure it out. It's not about brains, it's about discernment.

Let's take a trivial example, the Will Smith thing. I have deliberately picked an example which is all fluff and nonsense and doesn't really matter. I've seen a load of people asserting that it was all staged. My gut feeling is that it wasn't. Because Smith looked genuinely angry, he swore loudly twice which he surely wouldn't have done in a staged incident - it meant they cut the live feed - and during an ad break he was filmed visibly upset and being comforted, at a time when in theory he wasn't even on camera, it just happened that someone in the audience filmed it.
And sure, they're all actors, they could have staged it, they could have had a stooge film the amateur footage during the break. I am currently in a boring FB argument with someone about it on FB who is asserting with great confidence - a confidence he can't possibly have - that it was staged.

Because the honest truth is - I don't know, nor do you, nor does this dude on FB or the people online who are claiming it was all staged. The only people who really know are Will Smith and Chris Rock, and maybe some of their inner circles. I can form an opinion and make a judgement, as can you. We might come to different conclusions. But neither of us know for sure we're right. And that's just a simple incident between 2 people. When it comes to complex world events like Covid or the Ukraine situation, there's so much claim and counter claim, so much data we can look at but we can't possibly gather it for ourselves and know whether it's accurate. Making sense of it all is really difficult.

The best I can do is relate the news I see to the reality of the world around me and see if it makes sense to me. With Covid, I can talk to medical professionals I know, I can talk to friends who have had Covid or lost relatives to it. With Ukraine I can talk to my Polish colleagues, and the dev lead who is Ukrainian and has family in Kyiv. That gives me some first hand knowledge of what's going on, or close to. But even then it's just their perspective.

And of course our worldview and biases there has an impact on the way we assess information. You believe government is bad. I believe it's flawed but necessary. And so on. And sure, we can read books. But those are written by people, they have their worldview and biases which influences what they write and, maybe more importantly, don't write.

We do have quite different worldviews, but one difference between us is your rock solid confidence in your ability to know what's going on, what people's intentions are and what is going to happen next. Your record in these regards is not as spot on as you seem to imagine.

You lost me at Will Smith. Sorry.

Please be serious.

[Letters]

You lost me at Will Smith. Sorry.

Please be serious.

I used a trivial example to illustrate a serious problem :shrug:

[Letters]

https://newsthump.com/2022/03/31/covid-sceptic-doesnt-understand-why-ukrainian-refugees-are-fleeing-a-war-that-has-killed-less-than-0-1-of-the-population/

:lol:


:ninja:

[Niall_Quinn]

Are there any stories anywhere of anyone stating refugees fleeing a war zone is an overreaction? This is where the line between comedy and propaganda is crossed with these shills.

Meanwhile other parody sites are being banned for using actual comedy.

[Ollie the Optimist]

The weekend has brought news and evidence of further russian war crimes. Innocent civilians shot dead while having hands tied behind their backs. Evidence of women being raped by the russian soldiers and homes destroyed.

There is no defending those actions, teh west needs to increase their sanctions and provide further defensive weaponry to Ukraine. We stayed silent while Russia committee these war crimes in Syria, we cant stay quiet again

[Globalgunner]

The weekend has brought news and evidence of further russian war crimes. Innocent civilians shot dead while having hands tied behind their backs. Evidence of women being raped by the russian soldiers and homes destroyed.

There is no defending those actions, teh west needs to increase their sanctions and provide further defensive weaponry to Ukraine. We stayed silent while Russia committee these war crimes in Syria, we cant stay quiet again

Easy there Tiger. Dont go rushing off to enlist. Mr Khinzal might be waiting there to greet you. A few things tom consider

1. The mayor of that town Bucha was the first to announce that Russian troops had left. He was on the ground and made no mention of atrocities. 4 days later....bingo

2. Did you notice in that video that the vehicles were able to weave in and out slalom style between those dead bodies as if the "corpses" were doing their best to be accommodating stage extras

3. Russians left 4 days ago. These bodies show no signs of bloating or decomposing.

4. All dead were lying face down with nice clean bindings on their hands. War is rarely clean.

The above were the observations of Gonzalo Lira, a person on the ground who has analysed the video......

Don't do anything you might soon regret

[Ollie the Optimist]

Easy there Tiger. Dont go rushing off to enlist. Mr Khinzal might be waiting there to greet you. A few things tom consider

1. The mayor of that town Bucha was the first to announce that Russian troops had left. He was on the ground and made no mention of atrocities. 4 days later....bingo

2. Did you notice in that video that the vehicles were able to weave in and out slalom style between those dead bodies as if the "corpses" were doing their best to be accommodating stage extras

3. Russians left 4 days ago. These bodies show no signs of bloating or decomposing.

4. All dead were lying face down with nice clean bindings on their hands. War is rarely clean.

The above were the observations of Gonzalo Lira, a person on the ground who has analysed the video......

Don't do anything you might soon regret


Do you work for the Russian government or are you just a complete moron?

[Globalgunner]

Do you work for the Russian government or are you just a complete moron?

Good question. I plead the 5th

Now do you think about anything or just rush here after reading the Sun?

Besides its a match thread. Seems you only want one team on the pitch

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-61012398

So that’s where NQ has gone :ninja:

[Niall_Quinn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-61012398

So that’s where NQ has gone :ninja:

I'm busy doing things like reading books.

[Letters]

Did you find Wally yet? ;)

[Mac76]

:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Did you find Wally yet? ;)

Didn't need to. You jumped right out.

[Letters]

I set 'em up, you knock 'em down :d
Although you took your time. Probably all that reading.

[Niall_Quinn]

I set 'em up, you knock 'em down :d
Although you took your time. Probably all that reading.

Long time since I lived here. I check in to see if there has been an uptick in average IQ.

Then Ollie posts.

[Letters]

Yeah. "lol, ur thick" is always a good argument. :good:

[Mac76]

your dad

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah. "lol, ur thick" is always a good argument. :good:

It's not an argument, it's an observation backed by copious evidence that's right here and available for review. But I wouldn't say thick, it's more gullible and lazy.

Here's a mind exercise for anyone struggling with addiction to the mainstream media.

Apparently Russia is now using chemical weapons, Russia is indiscriminately shelling civilians all across Ukraine, etc, etc. Let's go with that for the sake of the demonstration.

Then we have, Boris Johnson pays surprise visit to Kiev.

So you can do a lot with even these minor and insignificant pieces from propaganda dumps like the BBC. Genuinely thick people won't get it. But those with higher levels of intelligence will see the problem pretty quickly, if not instantly. Then the real problem starts. Even intelligence people can convince themselves "news" that can't possibly be true is actually true.

And there are a thousand other similar exercises that can quickly assist with filtering out the bullshit. Seems most people don't think that way though, at least not in cases where they have been instructed to think to a pattern. Left to their own devices on other matters, say the purchase of a car, a request by an untrustworthy relative for a loan, mostly anything to do with personal finance in fact, the same people suddenly recover a degree of wisdom and judiciousness. It seems it's only with matters important to the state that many people lose their ability to reason.

But you just need to read some of the posts here and it all becomes self-evident.

[Globalgunner]

Anybody seen Ollie lately?
This just might be him
https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/uk-man-fighting-for-ukraine-surrenders-in-mariupol/

[Ollie the Optimist]

It's not an argument, it's an observation backed by copious evidence that's right here and available for review. But I wouldn't say thick, it's more gullible and lazy.

Here's a mind exercise for anyone struggling with addiction to the mainstream media.

Apparently Russia is now using chemical weapons, Russia is indiscriminately shelling civilians all across Ukraine, etc, etc. Let's go with that for the sake of the demonstration.

Then we have, Boris Johnson pays surprise visit to Kiev.

So you can do a lot with even these minor and insignificant pieces from propaganda dumps like the BBC. Genuinely thick people won't get it. But those with higher levels of intelligence will see the problem pretty quickly, if not instantly. Then the real problem starts. Even intelligence people can convince themselves "news" that can't possibly be true is actually true.

And there are a thousand other similar exercises that can quickly assist with filtering out the bullshit. Seems most people don't think that way though, at least not in cases where they have been instructed to think to a pattern. Left to their own devices on other matters, say the purchase of a car, a request by an untrustworthy relative for a loan, mostly anything to do with personal finance in fact, the same people suddenly recover a degree of wisdom and judiciousness. It seems it's only with matters important to the state that many people lose their ability to reason.

But you just need to read some of the posts here and it all becomes self-evident.

You say apparently Russia is indiscriminately shelling civilians.

Given there is countless images of Russians firing missiles at civilian buildings, hundreds of civilians shot dead with their hands tied behind their backs, hospitals targeted by Russian air strikes, are you denying these are actions of Russia?

Are you wanting us to believe all these actions are those of Ukraine and the west as some serious deep state action to falsely accuse Russia of these events?

And you say we are thick :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

You say apparently Russia is indiscriminately shelling civilians.

Given there is countless images of Russians firing missiles at civilian buildings, hundreds of civilians shot dead with their hands tied behind their backs, hospitals targeted by Russian air strikes, are you denying these are actions of Russia?

Are you wanting us to believe all these actions are those of Ukraine and the west as some serious deep state action to falsely accuse Russia of these events?

And you say we are thick :lol:

You do realise this is EXACTLY what the Ukrainians were doing to their own citizens prior to your latest historical reset?

Actually I just said you weren't thick. Gullible and lazy is what I said.

[Niall_Quinn]

Anybody seen Ollie lately?
This just might be him
https://nypost.com/2022/04/12/uk-man-fighting-for-ukraine-surrenders-in-mariupol/

That's quite an informative article. But it can't resist drifting into bullshit by the end. You have to wonder, if the Ukrainians are surrounded, without supplies and are being mopped up - why are the Russians using chemical weapons? Another one of those simple questions that can reveal so much.

The answer is easy enough. The Russians are using chemical weapons because the west says so and needs to hype up the hysteria so the war doesn't go cold for the Facebook warriors. And if that doesn't work, they might as well use nukes too. Or their new Death Star that everyone knows they always had.

Or I guess they could just say "hypersonic weapons" and leave it there. That seems to get a lot of war fans pumped.

I'm thinking the stand-up guy in Kiev has one last chance for peace before his army is sacrificed in its entirety on the altar of NATO's agenda. So far they haven't seemed squeamish about fighting to the last Ukrainian.

[Niall_Quinn]

You say apparently Russia is indiscriminately shelling civilians.

Given there is countless images of Russians firing missiles at civilian buildings, hundreds of civilians shot dead with their hands tied behind their backs, hospitals targeted by Russian air strikes, are you denying these are actions of Russia?

Are you wanting us to believe all these actions are those of Ukraine and the west as some serious deep state action to falsely accuse Russia of these events?

And you say we are thick :lol:

Btw Ollie - there were no WMD in Iraq. Imagine that? After all the fuss and nonsense.

Could history repeat?

[Globalgunner]

Btw Ollie - there were no WMD in Iraq. Imagine that? After all the fuss and nonsense.

Could history repeat?

Nooo! This time everything we see in the mass media is on the up and up...Putin is BAAAD


Bad for business and bad at parking too. He parked his country over all those vast natural resources that rightfully should belong to the west. The man cannot be allowed to remain in power.

[Ollie the Optimist]

That's quite an informative article. But it can't resist drifting into bullshit by the end. You have to wonder, if the Ukrainians are surrounded, without supplies and are being mopped up - why are the Russians using chemical weapons? Another one of those simple questions that can reveal so much.

The answer is easy enough. The Russians are using chemical weapons because the west says so and needs to hype up the hysteria so the war doesn't go cold for the Facebook warriors. And if that doesn't work, they might as well use nukes too. Or their new Death Star that everyone knows they always had.

Or I guess they could just say "hypersonic weapons" and leave it there. That seems to get a lot of war fans pumped.

I'm thinking the stand-up guy in Kiev has one last chance for peace before his army is sacrificed in its entirety on the altar of NATO's agenda. So far they haven't seemed squeamish about fighting to the last Ukrainian.

Except the west isn’t saying Russia is using chemical weapons. The west is saying that the allegations of their use need to be investigated and verified.

Not that facts seem to bother you

[Globalgunner]

Except the west isn’t saying Russia is using chemical weapons. The west is saying that the allegations of their use need to be investigated and verified.

Not that facts seem to bother you

It was the UK that blocked a UN investigation into those said crimes. Does that fact not bother you?

[Ollie the Optimist]

It was the UK that blocked a UN investigation into those said crimes. Does that fact not bother you?

Given the allegations of chemical weapons were only made last night and the uk has not blocked a un investigation since last night, no

[Letters]

It's not an argument, it's an observation backed by copious evidence that's right here and available for review. But I wouldn't say thick, it's more gullible and lazy.
You talked about IQ.
Come on, dude. It's this sort of argument that lost the Brexit vote - the idea that people who wanted to leave the EU were racist thickos. It's no wonder Brexiters didn't react well to that.


Russia is indiscriminately shelling civilians all across Ukraine, etc, etc. Let's go with that for the sake of the demonstration.
Then we have, Boris Johnson pays surprise visit to Kiev.
Except I don't think the MSM are saying the first of those. Certainly there have been "incidents" - the theatre and wasn't there a school? And that's not great.
But I haven't got a sense from the media that cities are being flattened like they were in WWII.
There has been bombing in Kyiv - our dev lead's family live there and heard it. But I read in the media that Russian troops had withdrawn from Kyiv before I read about Johnson's visit, so... :shrug:

You do go on about the WMD thing. You understand that the media were reporting on a dossier produced by the government?
I'd agree that hysterical headlines like The Sun's "HE'S GOT 'EM SO LET'S GET 'IM" are unhelpful, but the MSM were simply reporting what the dossier said. And it did say that.
It was also the MSM who reported on it when it was found to be a pile of horseshit. Is your argument that they shouldn't have reported on it at all until they could verify it?
I don't know how they could have done that in any reasonable timeframe.

I'm not saying the MSM are bastions of truth, but much of what they write is actually accurate and there's more oversight on them than there is on some bloke who starts a blog or YouTube channel.
Blindly believing everything the MSM write is not helpful but neither is blindly believing it to be false because its from the MSM.

I always feel you overestimate your discernment in these matters, and your underlying distrust of government leads you to wrong conclusions.
As I've noted, discerning truth these days is incredibly difficult and I believe the internet has made it harder than ever.

[Globalgunner]

Given the allegations of chemical weapons were only made last night and the uk has not blocked a un investigation since last night, no

Ok. It was the supposed Railway attack that the UK blocked. Still I wonder why

[Niall_Quinn]

Except the west isn’t saying Russia is using chemical weapons. The west is saying that the allegations of their use need to be investigated and verified.

Not that facts seem to bother you

Like in Syria, you mean?

Oh come on Ollie - use your imagination! Don't be distracted by facts.

[Niall_Quinn]

Given the allegations of chemical weapons were only made last night and the uk has not blocked a un investigation since last night, no

Have we moved on from the Russians being defeated? Or 1,000 Russians a day being killed? Yesterday?

Now we have a new thing. And on it goes. You've probably seen how one day becomes two and then almost forever.

Will there be a lie too far? The point where you stop and say, hold on, this isn't making sense any more.

Or does everything reset at 6am when the breakfast crew take the kick-off?

Ollie, Ollie, Ollie. There comes a time in every man's life when children's things should be put away.

[Niall_Quinn]

You talked about IQ.
Come on, dude. It's this sort of argument that lost the Brexit vote - the idea that people who wanted to leave the EU were racist thickos. It's no wonder Brexiters didn't react well to that.


Except I don't think the MSM are saying the first of those. Certainly there have been "incidents" - the theatre and wasn't there a school? And that's not great.
But I haven't got a sense from the media that cities are being flattened like they were in WWII.
There has been bombing in Kyiv - our dev lead's family live there and heard it. But I read in the media that Russian troops had withdrawn from Kyiv before I read about Johnson's visit, so... :shrug:

You do go on about the WMD thing. You understand that the media were reporting on a dossier produced by the government?
I'd agree that hysterical headlines like The Sun's "HE'S GOT 'EM SO LET'S GET 'IM" are unhelpful, but the MSM were simply reporting what the dossier said. And it did say that.
It was also the MSM who reported on it when it was found to be a pile of horseshit. Is your argument that they shouldn't have reported on it at all until they could verify it?
I don't know how they could have done that in any reasonable timeframe.

I'm not saying the MSM are bastions of truth, but much of what they write is actually accurate and there's more oversight on them than there is on some bloke who starts a blog or YouTube channel.
Blindly believing everything the MSM write is not helpful but neither is blindly believing it to be false because its from the MSM.

I always feel you overestimate your discernment in these matters, and your underlying distrust of government leads you to wrong conclusions.
As I've noted, discerning truth these days is incredibly difficult and I believe the internet has made it harder than ever.

This is rich beyond appetite. The guy who swam naked in the thicko Brexit swamp is now pointing to it as a cautionary tale.

I love this forum. For all the wrong reasons.

[Niall_Quinn]

You do go on about the WMD thing.

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/thumbor/i4ncclf3-6-T5SGiGXZ3CQPxknE=/900x600/media/img/photo/2018/03/photos-looking-back-at-the-war-in-i/i32_AP071211015152/original.jpg

Now if that was my child I just can't encapsulate how I'd respond. But one of my first targets would be the propagandists who made this not only acceptable but a duty.

You have to be stone cold evil to keep biting that worm, only taking breath to issue apologies.

[Globalgunner]

The WMD "thing" was a big deal if you were Iraqi. I suppose he as usual believes it was an honest mistake especially since every western spy service believed it too. The government's heart was in the right place. Has anyone forgot that Iraqi boy that literally lost all his limbs in the aftermath of shock and awe?. I haven't. I think about that poor child quite often.

[Niall_Quinn]

The WMD "thing" was a big deal if you were Iraqi. I suppose he as usual believes it was an honest mistake especially since every western spy service believed it too. The government's heart was in the right place. Has anyone forgot that Iraqi boy that literally lost all his limbs in the aftermath of shock and awe?. I haven't. I think about that poor child quite often.

Last I heard Iraqis aren't white or European or Ukrainian.

So what's you point?

[Niall_Quinn]

The WMD "thing" was a big deal if you were Iraqi. I suppose he as usual believes it was an honest mistake especially since every western spy service believed it too. The government's heart was in the right place. Has anyone forgot that Iraqi boy that literally lost all his limbs in the aftermath of shock and awe?. I haven't. I think about that poor child quite often.

Scott Ritter is still doing the rounds, you know? He's the sudden "online groomer" who had enough knowledge to debunk the war machine before the limbs started flying in Iraq.

Now he reckons the west is using Ukraine as a proxy battlefield. Fucking idiot. You have to be some sort of traitor to stick to you guns despite all the randomly generated news.

No matter how hard they try to wipe them out, there will always be humans who are human.

It's a bit depressing. The sheer amount of effort I poured into trying to stop that war, in my own individual way. Day and night. And here we are. The same playbook. The same voices. The same cheers from the sidelines. Lessons learned indeed. The guilty glorified again and offering their sage and lucrative advice.

And there will be a next time, exactly as all the other times. Presented as if it is the first time. And when you point to those people they will label you a traitor to humanity. With a straight face and not a thought of their own.

So we have to support those few humans who are actually human. It's desperate, it seems like a hopelessly lost fight, but maybe it's enough by a razor's edge.

[Globalgunner]

There is something significant buried In the bowels of that steel plant in Mariupul. Macron's is beside himself with anxiety. Something more than just personnel I believe. Hope it comes out before next weeks 2nd round in France

[Letters]

The WMD "thing" was a big deal if you were Iraqi.
I didn't say it wasn't a big deal, my point is People Like You hold it up as an example of the MSM lying to us.
Actually they were reporting on a government dossier, the media didn't write it. And when it was shown to be horseshit they reported that too.


I suppose he as usual believes it was an honest mistake especially since every western spy service believed it too. The government's heart was in the right place.
Now you're just straw manning.

[Niall_Quinn]

I didn't say it wasn't a big deal, my point is People Like You hold it up as an example of the MSM lying to us.
Actually they were reporting on a government dossier, the media didn't write it. And when it was shown to be horseshit they reported that too.


Now you're just straw manning.

Obviously you don't know what the role of the free press is supposed to be. The very reason they were given exceptional freedom.

Abused. Apologised for. Profusely and at every opportunity.

[Globalgunner]

Like I said , he believes it was an honest mistake....anyone in their place could have made the same. They reported what they were told to report. Simples

Today, the Watergate thing would never have been exposed. Instead of digging up facts and uncovering wrongdoing. Those reporters would have waited for Jen Psaki`s latest briefing and told the world what really happened.

Apart from the very real fact that today no reporter who values his job would go poking his nose in stuff that the paper`s owner has not sanctioned. Investigate his friends?. Dont you dare!

[Niall_Quinn]

There is something significant buried In the bowels of that steel plant in Mariupul. Macron's is beside himself with anxiety. Something more than just personnel I believe. Hope it comes out before next weeks 2nd round in France

Haven't heard that one. But there always is. Whenever these fuckers play there are at lest 100 games at stake, all impossibly interwoven. Hence the single focus nature of the news.

This is probably my least scrutinised war. Seen it too many times now.

[Globalgunner]

Macron has been pleading with Putin to allow a "humanitarian" corridor out of the plant. He even procured a fleet of Red Cross labeled ambulances for it but Putin said no. The Austrian chancellor was in Moscow yesterday for some kind of intervention too and came out with a flat rejection. They want a way out of there have been sending suicide helicopter missions on for weeks now all of which have been blown out of the sky. It wont be reported there because it doesnt fit the narrative of the Ukies "winning".

Reports are saying hundreds of NATO advisers locked in there with AZOV nazis. The Euro and US guys are apparently being held hostage now by the Azov guys who wont let them leave without them. It will be painful before it ends. Some are even speculating that the place may be a hub for the bio warfare programme with all sorts of stuff going on in there. Lots of document shredding going on no doubt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LK6t6tgl_mw&ab_channel=AlexanderMercouris

[Letters]

Like I said , he believes it was an honest mistake...
Repeating something which isn't true doesn't make it true :)


Today, the Watergate thing would never have been exposed.

How was the truth about the WMD dossier exposed? Because the MSM reported about that :shrug:

The issue these days is it's impossible to know what's true. Maybe that's always been the case but I do think it's harder than ever now with so many news sources to choose from. Everyone can pick their own source which reinforces their worldview, it's made people more polarised than ever.

[Globalgunner]

The WMD dossier was not debunked....There were no weapons found. No need to debunk a dossier.

Now Hilary Clintons Russia hoax on the other hand

Adding emojis doesnt strengthen your argument. Its just juvenile. Ive told you several times. This isnt high school. We are discussing existential topics here

[Letters]

The WMD dossier was not debunked....There were no weapons found. No need to debunk a dossier.
It was discredited then. And the fact that it was "sexed up" was reported in the MSM:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/jan/10/alastair-campbell-iraq-dossier-inquiry

How do you discern fact from fiction these days?

[Globalgunner]

All of this well after the fact that no weapons were found on the ground. It is the job of journalists to debunk this in real time, save humanity for the machinations of evil people. Thats the part you dont get and the fact that after being repeatedly lied to you need to be far less trusting. Why do you have to believe anything. The only thing thats true on this planet is gravity and even that disappears if you go high enough

[Globalgunner]

I recommend this interview with a Swiss NATO intelligence adviser. I expect it wont stay on YouTube for long

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4zReg7Bhu8&ab_channel=TheGrayzone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4zReg7Bhu8&ab_channel=TheGrayzone

[Xhaka Can’t]

The WMD "thing" was a big deal if you were Iraqi. I suppose he as usual believes it was an honest mistake especially since every western spy service believed it too. The government's heart was in the right place. Has anyone forgot that Iraqi boy that literally lost all his limbs in the aftermath of shock and awe?. I haven't. I think about that poor child quite often.

Except, most people didn’t fall for the WMD bullshit. As evidenced by the biggest anti-war demonstrations in the history of the UK.

The WMD lie was to justify the invasion of Iraq and everyone knew it without needing the benefit of hindsight.

Just as most people can see through the barbarity of the Russian regime. And like you, I’ll never forget the footage of a family being blown to smithereens in an intentional attack on fleeing civilians.

[Mac76]

Even if Saddam had had WMD, i never heard one single reason why he'd decide to use them against us or the US, he was just concerned with having power in Iraq, not attacking countries which he knew had enough firepower to wipe him and Iraq off the face of the planet

[Globalgunner]

Even if Saddam had had WMD, i never heard one single reason why he'd decide to use them against us or the US, he was just concerned with having power in Iraq, not attacking countries which he knew had enough firepower to wipe him and Iraq off the face of the planet

It was never about WMD, that much we know is true. If you truly have WMD, specifically nuclear weapons like NK has, they will leave you the fk alone

[Ollie the Optimist]

So Finland and Sweden are making their own democratic decision to join NATO meaning Russia will have a border around 850 miles longer with a NATO country.

Before Russia invaded Ukraine, Finland & Sweden had no interest in joining NATO.

Putin really is a genius

[Letters]

https://newsthump.com/2022/04/15/russian-flagship-moskva-on-patriotic-new-mission-to-investigate-sea-bed-insists-kremlin/

:lol:

[dazthegooner]

Could be true:unsure:

[Globalgunner]

Biden looking lost again

https://nypost.com/2022/04/14/biden-shakes-hands-with-thin-air-after-north-carolina-speech/?utm_source=twitter_sitebuttons&utm_medium=site%20buttons&utm_campaign=site%20

[Niall_Quinn]

The Russians were dying at the rate of a thousand a day, their advance was stalled and then they were on the retreat (pausing to slaughter civilians of course).

Now they outnumber the brave Nazis 10-1 and are closing in on securing the Donbas region.

These mutually exclusive mainstream narratives are perfectly reasonable and logical, provided you hold them at opposite sides of the brain and ensure they don't meet.

Also, the Russian economy has collapsed and the Ruble is trading higher against Sterling and the USD since it was wiped out by sanctions. Again, either side of the brain and you are good to go.

Now we have established the veracity of the western mainstream media beyond all shadow of hilarity, know this. The Russians will use biological, chemical and nuclear shit just like Assad didn't. Which will mean we have to sell more weapons to the good Nazis so they can fight to the last child. You stay focused on that and we'll take care of the receipts.

Meanwhile weapons sales are up in Germany, Poland, Sweden, Finland and mostly everywhere NATO sets its peaceful boot.

The war on terror was good, don't get me wrong. Two decades milking it in Afghanistan and a bloody rampage across northern Africa with our mates from ISIS. All good. But this is gong to be even better. And the best bit - the working class of the west is footing the bill. Are we good or what?

We're back boys!

[Letters]

These mutually exclusive mainstream narratives are perfectly reasonable and logical, provided you hold them at opposite sides of the brain and ensure they don't meet.
Let me see if I can help you:


The Russians were dying at the rate of a thousand a day, their advance was stalled and then they were on the retreat

and


Now they outnumber the brave Nazis 10-1 and are closing in on securing the Donbas region.

See how those events happened at different times? And in different places. You understand that the situation changes daily, right?
With the war and with the economic impact of it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Let me see if I can help you:



and



See how those events happened at different times? And in different places. You understand that the situation changes daily, right?
With the war and with the economic impact of it.

You can rationalise as many jarring absurdities as you prefer, in the same way you apologise on behalf of the same legacy media for their blatant lies during the build up to the Iraq massacre, followed by their "everyone knows" there are no WMD ass covering antics. They are always there to cheerlead as the bombs fall and the cash registers ring, before they flip 180 in preparation for the next sales event. Every time. And every time, there you are and people like you. Holding their coats and taking their drinks orders.

[Globalgunner]

You want his world and everything he knows is real to fall apart?. NQ. truly you have no heart.

Bottom line is the Rooskies are losing even though every fabric of what was once a country called Ukraine is being demolished brick by brick......and boris needs to stay as PM because.... Ukraine

[Letters]

You can rationalise as many jarring absurdities as you prefer
But I’m not doing that because what you outlined above is not a jarring absurdity.
You stated that two reports above are “mutually exclusive”. But your own post demonstrates why they are not. You’re talking about reports of things at different times and in different locations.

It was “people like me” who bought into the mainstream narrative that the Covid restrictions were an attempt to deal with “a situation” and were temporary. It was “people like you” (and Wengerbabies, wonder where he went now his nonsense has been shown to have been so) who said it was all about control. Well, I went to the office yesterday. Trains were as busy as I’d seen them, very few wearing masks. Went to the theatre in the evening, no Covid restrictions or masks there. So, y’know, I think I got that one right. On this one, I don’t really feel I know enough about the history and politics of it all to comment much. But if you’re going to call things “mutually exclusive” that clearly aren’t because of the passage of time and the events being in different locations then I’m going to call you out on it.

Oh, and GG, if you’re going to try and join in then do try saying something of substance, there’s a good chap

(Apologies for the big edit, pressed the wrong button and posted far earlier than I meant to)

[Xhaka Can’t]

You want his world and everything he knows is real to fall apart?. NQ. truly you have no heart.

Bottom line is the Rooskies are losing even though every fabric of what was once a country called Ukraine is being demolished brick by brick......and boris needs to stay as PM because.... Ukraine

I accept I may misunderstand your sentiment, but this reads like you are taking joy from the destruction of a country and the suffering that it inflicts on its people.

[Globalgunner]

You should ask that question of the governments who insist on pouring more weapons into Ukraine and telling the drug addled Zelensky to keep fighting

[Xhaka Can’t]

You should ask that question of the governments who insist on pouring more weapons into Ukraine and telling the drug addled Zelensky to keep fighting

The governments aren’t on the forum.

You are.

And my query was in response to your post. If you want to deflect like a British PM, thats up to you.

[Globalgunner]

Whatever fella

Facts are being made real on the ground. Either accept it or cry yourself to sleep.

[Niall_Quinn]

But I’m not doing that because what you outlined above is not a jarring absurdity.
You stated that two reports above are “mutually exclusive”. But your own post demonstrates why they are not. You’re talking about reports of things at different times and in different locations.

It was “people like me” who bought into the mainstream narrative that the Covid restrictions were an attempt to deal with “a situation” and were temporary. It was “people like you” (and Wengerbabies, wonder where he went now his nonsense has been shown to have been so) who said it was all about control. Well, I went to the office yesterday. Trains were as busy as I’d seen them, very few wearing masks. Went to the theatre in the evening, no Covid restrictions or masks there. So, y’know, I think I got that one right. On this one, I don’t really feel I know enough about the history and politics of it all to comment much. But if you’re going to call things “mutually exclusive” that clearly aren’t because of the passage of time and the events being in different locations then I’m going to call you out on it.

Oh, and GG, if you’re going to try and join in then do try saying something of substance, there’s a good chap

(Apologies for the big edit, pressed the wrong button and posted far earlier than I meant to)

First of all I never said Covid was about control. I said it was about control and money. And anyone who can't figure that much out, given the ridiculous behaviour of characters like Trudeau and the outrageous profits banked by Pfizer and the rest, is dedicated to being deluded. Hence you can claim with a straight face you are free because you are "allowed" to be. Except when you aren't. But you don't understand the fundamental principles so you can't see the inherent contradiction in your excuses.

Since you are incapable of independent thought, or unwilling to engage in it, I can't understand why it is so important for you to support overt corruption. You could just ignore posts that highlight it, but you seem compelled to issue an apology on every occasion. Strange.

No, you don't know anything about Ukraine except what the legacy media told you. Which means you know nothing at all. Yet you still manage to deny the media is engaged in naked propaganda on behalf of warmongers. Again. Strange. I mean, how would you know?

[Niall_Quinn]

The governments aren’t on the forum.

You are.

And my query was in response to your post. If you want to deflect like a British PM, thats up to you.

The practical reality may be the reverse of what you suggest. Ukraine never stood a chance. The outcome was inevitable from the outset. Perhaps the Ukrainian leadership (such as it is) wasn't aware of this harsh reality as it was being led down the garden path by the profit hungry corporations and their political puppets. There was never any assistance coming for Ukraine because the west knows full well what that will cost. So all the cheering from the sidelines amounts to one thing and one thing only - death, but not on my doorstep. Yet London and Washington hissed about NATO membership and the EU winked and showed a bit of leg. All a tease, because the cost was known and discussed and agreed upon long before the first Russian tank crossed any border.

Mearsheimer laid this all out in terms that anyone can understand. And it has played out exactly as he foretold. I won't say predicted because prediction implies uncertainty and this was always a sure thing, like it was every time before. Profit from the war but make sure you aren't the one doing the fighting.

The puppet Biden is draining oil reserves so he can prop up military and security services supplies in Europe, now our enemies in Washington have shut off the pipelines from their primary competitors. It's a short term solution. It makes me wonder if Trump will ride back in and drill baby drill. And then the temporary supplies can become permanent and the geopolitical balance has shifted and the profits soar higher. Maybe that's cynical even by my standards, but that's the endgame I see emerging.

So I guess you can ask, hey are you taking joy from suffering? Speculate this way, speculate that way. One thing that requires no speculation is the profit that is being taken from human suffering and you are right, the profiteers aren't here on this forum. They are elsewhere, in the usual places.

[Letters]

First of all I never said Covid was about control. I said it was about control and money. And anyone who can't figure that much out, given the ridiculous behaviour of characters like Trudeau and the outrageous profits banked by Pfizer and the rest, is dedicated to being deluded.
You think it's suspicious that a pharmaceutical company who developed a vaccine during a pandemic made profits?!
There's a bit in Peep Show where Jez says he wanted something (I forget what) to happen and then it did and therefore thinks he has some special powers.
Mark replies "I wanted interest rates to fall to historic lows and they did, that doesn't make me the governor of the Bank of England"
Famously, correlation != causation. Of course during a pandemic any pharmaceutical company able to create a vaccine is going to hit the jackpot.
That doesn't mean Pfizer caused the pandemic to happen. In any crisis like this there are opportunities to make money.

As for control. Your rhetoric during the pandemic was that the restrictions were here to stay and would increase. The exact opposite happened.
Obviously countries have reacted differently, some went full hard lockdown, some acted like it wasn't happening. Over here the government got a lot of things wrong but it seems to me they tried to balance the need to respond to the pandemic with people's liberties. Given the cases in the run up to last Christmas they had all the excuse they needed to impose more restrictions if they wanted, but they didn't. And now everything has been rolled back. Again, the exact opposite of what you predicted. That tells me it wasn't about control. As I've said many times, the response changed as the situation did.


Hence you can claim with a straight face you are free because you are "allowed" to be. Except when you aren't.
Right. Except when you aren't. We live in a society with a government who make the laws which that society abides by. You might not like that, but it's the system we have.
It's the system basically every country has come up with to solve the problems of creating and maintaining the infrastructure needed in a complex modern society.
Not a perfect system by any means but it's what we have and it's not new.
So yes, that means it's the government who allow us to do things, or not. They make the laws and that's what laws are.

So you can't drive down a suburban road at 60 miles an hour. You can't drive at all legally if you haven't passed your test. These aren't unreasonable restrictions on our liberty, they're not rules made to oppress and control us. They're intended to keep people safe. Just hoping that everyone will learn to drive competently and safely isn't really going to work, so there are laws. These do restrict our liberties but not in a way which most people would think unreasonable. There's a sensible debate to be had about the details of these laws - there's some roads where I think the speed limits are ridiculously low - but I don't think many people would argue that it should be a free for all.

Most of the time in this country the government basically leave us alone to get on with our day to day lives. Sure, we grumble about paying tax but we want the roads to be maintained and our bins to be collected. Again, you can debate how taxation should work, but I don't think many people are adverse to the principle of it because we understand that there needs to be an infrastructure and that isn't going to build or maintain itself. . My old boss had this little catchphrase "freedom within a framework". I think that's what we basically have in this country. And most of the time the framework is pretty light touch, the government don't interfere with the minutiae of our lives. Occasionally there is "a situation" which does require them to be stricter, the War was one, Covid was another. In peace time the idea that you could be fined for putting the lights on at night and opening the curtains is ridiculous, in the context of a war where you're getting bombed it makes sense. In normal times the idea that it would be illegal to go to a friend's house is ridiculous, in the context of a pandemic it makes sense. And again, we can debate whether the restrictions were the right ones but my point has always been that the restrictions were temporary and designed to deal with the situation. I'd suggest the fact that they have all been rolled back now rather demonstrates that.


But you don't understand the fundamental principles so you can't see the inherent contradiction in your excuses.
I do understand it, but freedom as you define it isn't possible in the context of a society. And I don't think it's desirable either as without that framework I believe things would be chaotic. Which doesn't mean things are perfect now, but our infrastructure basically works and the government aren't oppressive here. Yes, they [I]could be, but historically they never have been.


Since you are incapable of independent thought, or unwilling to engage in it, I can't understand why it is so important for you to support overt corruption. You could just ignore posts that highlight it, but you seem compelled to issue an apology on every occasion. Strange.
You really need to stop thinking of yourself as an independent thinker and believing that other people aren't.
Just because you read and believe different sources, that doesn't make you independent. None of us are independent, our opinions and beliefs are always based on what we read and who we believe.
You have no ability to collect Covid data and you don't (as far as I know) have any medical training. The same goes for me. So we both based our beliefs about Covid on things we read, people we talked to and decided who and what we believed. The fact that you believed different people and came to different conclusions doesn't make you some independent thinker and me a sheep.
And what I'm defending? I merely pointed out that two things which you said were mutually exclusive aren't.


No, you don't know anything about Ukraine except what the legacy media told you. Which means you know nothing at all. Yet you still manage to deny the media is engaged in naked propaganda on behalf of warmongers. Again. Strange. I mean, how would you know?
I'm not denying that. I've been pretty clear I don't have much of an opinion about any of this. But at the start of this exchange you highlighted two media narratives which you said were "mutually exclusive". They are not. Because they were talking about things at different times and in different areas. You understand that the situation in a war changes daily? And the situation is often different in different places. It's the logical equivalent of complaining that the mainstream narrative was that Arsenal lost to Southampton, who had just been duffed up by Chelsea. Now the mainstream narrative is that Arsenal beat Chelsea. Arsenal couldn't beat Southampton, who just lost 6-0 to Chelsea, and now they're telling us that Arsenal beat Chelsea?! Well yeah. Different games in different places on different days.

Of course there's loads of propaganda going on, pumped out by both sides. Such is the nature in a war. Which is why I've mostly decided I'm not sure what to believe. But I don't think that that the things the MSM report are necessarily untrue because they're mainstream. And that doesn't make them true either. I'd be willing to concede I'm a little too trusting but I'd suggest you err in the other direction. It's this suspicion of everyone and everything - particularly everything mainstream or everyone in authority - which led you to your predictions about ever increasing Covid restrictions. Does the fact that the opposite happened not give you any pause for thought?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Whatever fella

Facts are being made real on the ground. Either accept it or cry yourself to sleep.

So you are enjoying it.

That’s pretty sick.

I don’t know why I tried to clarify a point with NQ lite.

At least he has a philosophy and substance supporting his views that I can respect and respond to.

[Globalgunner]

Whatever fella


See I can repeat myself like a robot like you do

[Globalgunner]

I was struck by this speech from almost 2,000 years ago

“....We are the last people on earth, and the last to be free: our very remoteness in a land known only to rumour has protected us up till this day. ….But now there is no people beyond us, nothing but tides and rocks and, more deadly than these, the Romans. It is no use trying to escape their arrogance by submission or good behaviour. They have pillaged the world: when the land has nothing left for men who ravage everything, they scour the sea. If an enemy is rich, they are greedy, if he is poor, they crave glory. Neither East nor West can sate their appetite. They are the only people on earth to covet wealth and poverty with equal craving. They plunder, they butcher, they ravish, and call it by the lying name of ‘empire’. They make a desert and call it ‘peace’.”
- Calgacus, ca. AD 84. Speech before the Battle of Mons Graupius, the Scottish Highlands against the Romans.

Taken from another forum but very apropos

[Globalgunner]

No Sign of Genocide in Ukraine – UN


There is nothing to indicate that genocide is being perpetrated in Ukraine amid the Russian military operation, according to UN Human Rights Office spox Ravina Shamdasani.


US President Joe Biden, and other leaders, has casually thrown around claims of genocide in Ukraine - a heavy allegation under international law.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No Sign of Genocide in Ukraine – UN


There is nothing to indicate that genocide is being perpetrated in Ukraine amid the Russian military operation, according to UN Human Rights Office spox Ravina Shamdasani.


US President Joe Biden, and other leaders, has casually thrown around claims of genocide in Ukraine - a heavy allegation under international law.

It may be a good idea to post links to what is being said so that the context of what is being said can be ascertained. Attached is an article that puts Ravina Shamdasani’s statement into context.

It doesn’t provide the rosy picture you try to convey. It is notable that you are fixated on the definition of the terms used by Biden (who is frankly useless, even if all you needed was information on the day of the week) than the horrors people are enduring at the hands of an invading force that commits war crimes against innocent civilians with impunity.

https://www.reuters.com/world/un-rights-office-cites-growing-evidence-war-crimes-ukraine-2022-04-22/

[Xhaka Can’t]

I was struck by this speech from almost 2,000 years ago

“....We are the last people on earth, and the last to be free: our very remoteness in a land known only to rumour has protected us up till this day. ….But now there is no people beyond us, nothing but tides and rocks and, more deadly than these, the Romans. It is no use trying to escape their arrogance by submission or good behaviour. They have pillaged the world: when the land has nothing left for men who ravage everything, they scour the sea. If an enemy is rich, they are greedy, if he is poor, they crave glory. Neither East nor West can sate their appetite. They are the only people on earth to covet wealth and poverty with equal craving. They plunder, they butcher, they ravish, and call it by the lying name of ‘empire’. They make a desert and call it ‘peace’.”
- Calgacus, ca. AD 84. Speech before the Battle of Mons Graupius, the Scottish Highlands against the Romans.

Taken from another forum but very apropos

TBH, the only thing you seem to be struck by is a horse’s hoof to the head.

[Globalgunner]

Whatever fella

I trust you know that Reuters is a well known CIA western mouthpiece along with the redoubtable BBC, CNN et al

[Xhaka Can’t]

Whatever fella

I trust you know that Reuters is a well known CIA western mouthpiece along with the redoubtable BBC, CNN et al

It confirmed what you said.

If the source of your article were linked, then it too would likely provide context. Perhaps it would confirm or debunk the wider context provided by Reuters. But we’ll never know because you cherrypicked from an unknown source.

[Globalgunner]

Russian trucks and armour are now displaying the entire English alphabet on their sides......epic trolling

Cancel that

[McNamara That Ghost...]

No Sign of Genocide in Ukraine – UN


There is nothing to indicate that genocide is being perpetrated in Ukraine amid the Russian military operation, according to UN Human Rights Office spox Ravina Shamdasani.


US President Joe Biden, and other leaders, has casually thrown around claims of genocide in Ukraine - a heavy allegation under international law.

Putin claimed Ukraine is not a country, that's enough for me.

[Globalgunner]

Ive been told you need to put a link...otherwise its just hearsay

[Globalgunner]

Some protesters in France

*Warning there may be some distressing scenes of partial nudity*

https://t.me/intelslava/26528

[Letters]

Ive been told you need to put a link...otherwise its just hearsay

Aren’t you a “do your own research” kinda guy?
Come on dude, there are loads of sources for this.

[Letters]

Some protesters in France

*Warning there may be some distressing scenes of partial nudity*

To quote the late, great Sean Lock. That’s a challenging wank :d

[Niall_Quinn]

You think it's suspicious that a pharmaceutical company who developed a vaccine during a pandemic made profits?!

I didn't read the rest of it because this is enough. If you can post that with a straight face then you illustrate all the points I made. Yes, of course, if you dishonestly distill it to a simple statement such as the one you delivered, you can make sense from simplification and the world remains just as you need it to be. But if you start adding the layers of reality that lurk beneath your casual dismissal, yet still in plain view for all to see should they care or dare to look, your apology rings hollow.

Name the last vaccine that was forcibly promoted by world governments. There is one. If you didn't rely so heavily on Google and copy/ paste as a substitute for actual knowledge you'd already have read scores of essays on that time period (as I was compelled to as I tried to find answers to explain the state's behaviour). Smallpox. Of course people were literally dropping dead in the street. So the vaccine (which was bogus the first few times around - it happens, always) wasn't a hard sell because not all people are stupid. I know you won't go away and educate yourself, but if you were inclined to take my word for it there are huge (practical) differences between past, dangerous pandemics and the scam that was perpetrated with Covid. Yes, I know, when I say scam you'll claim I deny a virus exists - as you have been told to do. When I say scam I mean the orchestrated overreaction (by magnitudes) that resulted in two primary outcomes. Increased power for the state and increased profits for the corporations. These things actually happened, regardless of your denials. You can't discern the difference between rights and privileges and you claim the scam had nothing to do with control. Yet rights were converted to privileges under your nose and close up. And you are grateful for it. You rejoice at being "allowed" to exercise your rights by the leave of others. I don't think it is in any way wrong for me to claim you have no notion of liberty and I reiterate the lack of malice or spite in claiming you lack the ability to think independently. I merely observe your words and draw inevitable conclusions.

As for the profits, I could write a book about it. So many articles read on the economic realities of big pharma and how it was destined for the scrapheap before Covid became the gift and salvation. The very fact they can now press a vaccine into production in a year or less is massive, but you won't know why and you won't know how that relates to the economic bottom line. Because you are almost perfectly ignorant on such matters. Ignorant to the extent you can type out the thoughtless sentence quoted above. Ignorant because you don't know anything about patent law. Ignorant because you don't know about the long standing (now dead) testing and approval regimes. Ignorant because you don't know what a PCR "test" (lab procedure) really is. Ignorant on so many levels - yet so very opinionated. But they aren't your opinions. They are another copy/paste job.

Yes of course Enron did what Enron did. It's the job of corporations to make profits. BCCI. $68billion in fines for actually killing countless people. Yes of course companies make profits. Move along. The dead aren't from my tribe. Nothing to see. It's the attitude that guarantees nothing can ever change. You are the people that make the world the way it is, when it simply doesn't have to be that way.

[Niall_Quinn]

Putin claimed Ukraine is not a country, that's enough for me.

Get a history book and the read it. You'll find enough is never really enough. There's always something more, or something at all, to learn. Unless you are determined not to.

Ukraine is a country in the same way the independent states of the Donbas are. If you find the former to be enough to deter inquisitiveness the you must, by logical extension, subscribe to the latter by default. Though I get a nasty suspicion you don't.

Me, I prefer reality. Ukraine is a country for as long as the same global actors say it is, or isn't. If Putin says Ukraine is not a country and his troops make it so then your opinion bounces off the facts.

Sticking with reality, Ukraine is actually a pile of rubble, because Raytheon and Boeing wanted more money and so did Exxon and Shell. Putin said no, because his corporations said snap a fraction of a second sooner. If you think it works differently to that then bless.

[Globalgunner]

Letters. Seems you are about to get some new neighbours. If you live round about`s Hyde park or Kensington that is:

https://twitter.com/AZmilitary1/status/1519447474250960899


Zelensky likes Coke parties I hear, just not the liquid in a svelte shaped bottle mind you. He prefers the real thing.


Biden making an announcement. Sttttttttruggling to get the words out as usual

https://t.me/swentr/1941

Maybe he will put Hunter in charge of Russian asset recovery?

[Globalgunner]

Honest Joe, telling us about one of his core philosophies



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94h5XykmVCA&amp;ab_channel=SumF%C3%A3ggOtt

[Xhaka Can’t]

Caffeine free as well it seems

[Niall_Quinn]

Letters. Seems you are about to get some new neighbours. If you live round about`s Hyde park or Kensington that is:

https://twitter.com/AZmilitary1/status/1519447474250960899


Zelensky likes Coke parties I hear, just not the liquid in a svelte shaped bottle mind you. He prefers the real thing.


Biden making an announcement. Sttttttttruggling to get the words out as usual

https://t.me/swentr/1941

Maybe he will put Hunter in charge of Russian asset recovery?

1 victim, 1 savage. I would guess that's the equation, given the number of Ukrainian savages. We'll see the results later, but for now it's all about virtue signalling, even when it's Nazis they are slobbering over.

[Globalgunner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcp0TYx_eUI&ab_channel=SchillerInstitute

Worth a listen. Please do

[Niall_Quinn]

Here's a simple but excellent question I saw asked today.

"I trust that all readers are prepared to die for the Ukraine."

Because the more support people give to the warmongers in Washington and London the more urgent that question. Well, are you? Prepared to die for the Ukraine?

[Xhaka Can’t]

You can extrapolate that argument for any war. The answer to all questions for if you’re prepared to die for x conflict is likely to be the same.

[Niall_Quinn]

You can extrapolate that argument for any war. The answer to all questions for if you’re prepared to die for x conflict is likely to be the same.

Are you prepared to die for Yemen?

See what I'm saying?

[Globalgunner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hptH3yQ-3oo&ab_channel=MEMETHELEFT

Joe in top form as usual. Is no one going to give him an Emmy for bring the best comedian since the turn of the decade at least?

[Xhaka Can’t]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61463876

Opportunity of a lifetime for McDowell’s!

[Niall_Quinn]

McDonald's said owning a business in Russia was "no longer tenable" or consistent with its values.

McDonald's values? As if such a thing existed. I suppose, for a company that kills people slowly for profit, watching potential customers die fast must be hard to bear. They should have a beef with McDonnell Douglas, not Russia. The former started this, along with their mates. A combination of the lost cash cow Afghanistan and pure jealousy of big pharma going large. 50 billion in 2 months shows how it should be done. Suck it up Pfizer, through a paper straw.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Our buns have no seeds

[Globalgunner]

Nazi`s surrendering by the bus load in Avostal. All over MSM its been described as an "End of hostilities and an evacuation" Yeah, right into a cold Siberian jail with the other option being facing a firing squad.

[Ollie the Optimist]

So Finland & Sweden are now joining NATO (Putin really is an excellent salesman convincing two neutral countries to join NATO) but he is not invading them nor does he seem that concerned by “NATO expansion” given they will have a 1000 mile border with Russia.


Russian President Vladimir Putin said the move by Finland and Sweden to join the 30-member military alliance did not threaten Moscow directly

So given the pretext for invading Ukraine was due to NATO expansion, how are you going to spin this one NQ?

[Globalgunner]

They havent joined yet as Turkey has vowed to veto it Also Putin said in his message today that any new NATO installations in either country will be blasted to smithereens. All Sweden and Finland have done is place their peoples in an alliance that has sworn to destroy Russia. Russia has enough missiles for its own defence.

Interesting that neither of these so called democracies decided to ask their people in a referendum if joining NATO was what the people actually wanted

[Niall_Quinn]

So Finland & Sweden are now joining NATO (Putin really is an excellent salesman convincing two neutral countries to join NATO) but he is not invading them nor does he seem that concerned by “NATO expansion” given they will have a 1000 mile border with Russia.



So given the pretext for invading Ukraine was due to NATO expansion, how are you going to spin this one NQ?

What? How am I going to spin your lack of understanding of what's happening?

You got me, I don't know.

If you're asking if the whole Sweden/ Finland thing is grubby gun pushers looking for yet more profit then sure, Putin is the go-to marketing resource for the warmongers in Washington. They use him for everything. That's not new.

As for Ukraine, the people of Donbas aren't being slaughtered by neo-Nazis. So that's a plus. After all, we all support the Ukrainian people, right?

[Niall_Quinn]

BTW, Germany is already rowing back on its Boeing and Raytheon catalogue splurge. Guess it can't afford both Uncle Sam's bombs and Russian oil and gas, which still flows. Much to the benefit of the Ruble.

I mean what an absolute fuck-up by the neocons - again. Every time they pull this shit a whole nation gets destroyed.

[Globalgunner]

There are many stages of European grief. Anger, Sanctions, Frustration, Despair, Mendacity (cheating in Eurovision too, FFS!). It all eventually ends with paying for Russian essentials in Rubles

[Xhaka Can’t]

https://youtu.be/lvI7LQ4QoCo

:haha: