Arsenal v Manchester United, 16:30 GMT (22/01, Sky Sports Main Event)

[McNamara That Ghost...]

No Casemiro. :popcorn:

Trossard to come on and destroy them again. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

Big game. Probably the biggest in years with United.

Need to be mindful of the fact they’re the only side to have taken 3 points off us but if we apply ourselves as we have done all season I think we should take it. United do tend to get results in the big games which is annoying though.

2-1.

[Mac76]

0-3 Fernandes hatter

...but seriously reckon it could be a 2-1

We should win and certainly need to

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Well it looks like Citeh will only be 2points behind us before the kick off, so ensuring the gap remains is another reason we need to play for all 3 points.

If only the Spuds had held on against them.

Anyway we are the better team so I'm not too worried.

[Letters]

I hope we win tbh

[HCZ_Reborn]

I hope we win tbh

Bold statement

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arsenal: Ramsdale, White, Saliba, Gabriel, Zinchenko, Partey, Xhaka, Odegaard, Saka, Martinelli, Nketiah.
Subs: Turner, Tierney, Tomiyasu, Holding, Lokonga, Vieira, Smith Rowe, Marquinhos, Trossard.

Man Utd: De Gea, Wan-Bissaka, Varane, Martinez, Shaw, McTominay, Eriksen, Bruno Fernandes, Rashford, Weghorst, Antony.
Subs: Heaton, Lindelof, Maguire, Malacia, Fred, Mainoo, Pellistri, Elanga, Garnacho.

[Marc Overmars]

Come on you Gunners!!!

Nervous. :sick:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Can see them winning or a score draw today. Do not feel confident about this match at all, and did not feel like this against Spurs last week. Hope I’m wrong

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Come on Arsenal. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

Fast start

Some half chances

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Partey puts it wide.

[Marc Overmars]

Martinelli needs to release the ball quicker

[Marc Overmars]

Can see them winning or a score draw today. Do not feel confident about this match at all, and did not feel like this against Spurs last week. Hope I’m wrong

Same feeling here. Maybe it’s so unfamiliar for us to be favourites in a game like this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

bit scruffy.

[Marc Overmars]

Martinelli combs one miles high and wide. Had time for a better execution there.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Martinelli is losing his head a bit.

[Marc Overmars]

Opposite start to last weekend with everything going through Martinelli rather than Saka

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Antony. :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Rashford scores a screamer

0-1

[Xhaka Can’t]

Passing is a bit off today.

For both sides.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Rashford scores a screamer

0-1

Shit

I’m well behind

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 Rashford. Ouch.

[Marc Overmars]

Not much you can do about that really.

Hope we don’t lose our heads.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Not much you can do about that really.

Hope we don’t lose our heads.

Partey made to look a bit silly

[Marc Overmars]

EDDIEEEEEEEEE

[Marc Overmars]

Let’s fugging go guys!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

NKETIAH!!!!

[GP]

Great ball in from Granit. Good goal, lets go!

[Xhaka Can’t]

Two beautiful goals in this game.

Both sides are classes above Liverpool and Chelsea

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ramsdale. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Arteta booked. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

I think we’ve been quite sloppy with the ball.

Composure lads.

[Marc Overmars]

Partey has been shit.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 HT.

Think there's a lot more room for improvement there. Pretty wasteful.

[Marc Overmars]

HT 1-1

Great energy but too frantic. I can see us losing this if we don’t sharpen up on the ball. They’re forcing a lot of errors out of us.

[Mac76]

Partey has been shit.

Also Zinchenko and a few more, a lot of poor touches and bad passing, we need to raise our game

[Xhaka Can’t]

No problem getting it in the United box, just need the end product

[selassie]

I think we’ve been quite sloppy with the ball.

Composure lads.

Yeah this. We look a bit nervy in possession. Saying that we do look good going forward, there are more goals in this i think, but we need to be cautious of United's counter as they look quite dangerous on the break.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

White, Odegaard, Martinelli(though he never gives up) have all been really really poor. Its White that has surprised me the most, it's alsmost like he is afraid of something or doesn't want to be on the pitch.

I think we will need Trossard on the pitch or our attacking players to raise their game... IMO only Martinelli has that ability.

Unfortunately with the way we are playing, I'd take a draw ATM.

[Marc Overmars]

It’s the pressing we haven’t dealt with. Partey is supposed to be that guy who can evade it but he’s not been great at all.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

BTW Saka has been great.

Its days like this that you know who's carrying the team, when he wants to play, he really is unstoppable.

If we're going to get a winner, he'll probably be involved.

Great goal by Eddie BTW, any proper striker would be proud of that.

[selassie]

BTW Saka has been great.

Its days like this that you know who's carrying the team, when he wants to play, he really is unstoppable.

If we're going to get a winner, he'll probably be involved.

Great goal by Eddie BTW, any proper striker would be proud of that.

Aye. Saka and Eddie have both been really good. The rest have not quite been up to the job, Xhaka not bad, Odegaard not bad but Partey has struggled, he really needs to step it up. White has struggled too.

[Marc Overmars]

Tomi on for White

He wasn’t good tbf

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

It’s the pressing we haven’t dealt with. Partey is supposed to be that guy who can evade it but he’s not been great at all.

Partey has been average for quite a while, he's probably getting tired.

The problem is even with his averageness, he pulls out moments of genius you can't see anyone on the bench in that position replicating.

We just need to be hopeful he does it again

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tomiyasu on for White.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Tomi on for White

He wasn’t good tbf

A real shame he decided to let himself down today, I almost couldn't believe he's the same player I've been raving about for weeks.

Lets hope its a one off.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Antony booked.

[Marc Overmars]

Partey does well to cover but then runs it out for a corner :rolleyes:

[Marc Overmars]

SAKAAAAAAAAA

WHAT A GOAL

[McNamara That Ghost...]

SAKA!!!!

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Saka is a god!!!

[GP]

Saka is a superstar.

[Marc Overmars]

Great save from Ramsdale to deny Rashford

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Ramsdale. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

Partey FFS

Come on man

[Marc Overmars]

2-2 Martinez

Ramsdale doesn’t get enough on the punch

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-2 Martinez.

Oh Ramsdale.

[Marc Overmars]

That’s actually really poor from Ramsdale. Flapping with his own players around him.

[Marc Overmars]

Need some more magic because I don’t believe we’ve been good with the ball at all

[McNamara That Ghost...]

oof that was close.

[Marc Overmars]

Saka tries the wonder goal again but hits the post!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

So unlucky Saka.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Antony off, Fred on.

[Marc Overmars]

Applying the pressure.

Don’t get caught on the counter here lads. :sick:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Trossard. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

What save De Gea FFS

[Marc Overmars]

EDDIEEEEEEEE

COME ON

[Marc Overmars]

VAR?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

NKETIAH!!!! COME ON!!

[Marc Overmars]

GOAL

[McNamara That Ghost...]

FUCK YOU VAR!! WOOOHOO!

[Marc Overmars]

Here comes Holding :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Holding. :bow:

[Marc Overmars]

FULL TIME !!!!!


COME ON

WOW

[Letters]

Holy shit!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

3-2 FT!!!! COME ON YOU GUNNERS!!!!

What a game!!!

[LDG]

Get the absolute fuck in!!!!!!!

[GP]

We're going to win the league.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fucking yes

[Marc Overmars]

We battered them in the final 20 mins.

Went for it like a team that believes it can win the league. Incredible stuff.

[GP]

Eddie van Hale End :bow:

[GP]

Zinchenko is an incredible player.

[Globalgunner]

Zinchenko is an incredible player.

100%

[Niall_Quinn]

Why is a woman doing the post game analysis? How fucking ridiculous is that?

[Niall_Quinn]

Zinchenko is an incredible player.

Found something I can agree with you on. Makes me nervous.

[Marc Overmars]

Good cameo from Trossard. Looks confident, would start him next week at City.

[Niall_Quinn]

Didn't watch it, apart from the last 3 minutes, so can't comment on the game. But this was a banker loss in past seasons. So maybe things have finally turned around? Definite pressure game. And they've never been able to handle the pressure before. So many false dawns.

A notable result. A once in a decade moment for the club.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Yes!!

I can't say I care who wins the league now, but you beat those twats.

And really that's all that matters. Makes tomorrow 1% more bearable.

[Niall_Quinn]

Eddie's razor is crap. It's left silly little hair trails across his face. Somebody tell him FFS!

[Marc Overmars]

Didn't watch it, apart from the last 3 minutes, so can't comment on the game. But this was a banker loss in past seasons. So maybe things have finally turned around? Definite pressure game. And they've never been able to handle the pressure before. So many false dawns.

A notable result. A once in a decade moment for the club.

Things have definitely turned. United made this incredibly uncomfortable for us but we flipped the switch and won the game with late pressure. Much like the Liverpool win.

This team is built completely differently. They deal with adversity in a way not seen in an Arsenal team since Wenger’s glory days.

[Niall_Quinn]

Money is an amazing thing. Can you imagine what Keane would actually say to that stupid bint if money wasn't on the line? She'd be making coffee before she knew what hit her.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Didn't watch it, apart from the last 3 minutes, so can't comment on the game. But this was a banker loss in past seasons. So maybe things have finally turned around? Definite pressure game. And they've never been able to handle the pressure before. So many false dawns.

A notable result. A once in a decade moment for the club.


They last won in the league in 2017. Since then 4 wins & a draw.

Some banker

[Niall_Quinn]

They last won in the league in 2017. Since then 4 wins & a draw.

Some banker

Fuck off Ollie you twat. You know exactly what I mean (a points vital, against big opponent, pressure game) yet you dive in with your childish bullshit. What a dick.

[Niall_Quinn]

Is that stupid woman fat because she's preggers? Or does she just raid the fridge a lot?

[Niall_Quinn]

Cesc has got Sky DNA.

[Niall_Quinn]

Keane is great, "He's not cutting the grass is he?" [RE: Arteta]. I mean, obviously, Keane is a wanker. But at least he brings a bit of reality to the pathetic Sky virtue signalling circus.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just watching a replay of Arteta being booked for being excited. LOL. What a clown world.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Amazing how much of an issue someone has with a women presenting a football show.

For someone who claims the rest of us cant think without the BBC telling us what to think, its a bit stoneage

[Niall_Quinn]

Amazing how much of an issue someone has with a women presenting a football show.

For someone who claims the rest of us cant think without the BBC telling us what to think, its a bit stoneage

Knew it would trigger a cunt like you.

[Niall_Quinn]

Aaaand... the bitch is finished. Now hire a bloke to do a bloke's job. Men play football. Women play netball. And everyone actually fucking knows tat. But they are too pussy whipped to say it.

[Ollie the Optimist]

Knew it would trigger a cunt like you.

Not sure you can accuse others of being triggered when you’ve had a full breakdown on here over a woman presenting a football show

[Niall_Quinn]

Not sure you can accuse others of being triggered when you’ve had a full breakdown on here over a woman presenting a football show

Watch Sky right now you fag. And see what a man's game looks like.

[Mac76]

Knew it would trigger a cunt like you.

Wow, someone was on their second bottle of the hard stuff early today

What a loser

[Niall_Quinn]

Wow, someone was on their second bottle of the hard stuff early today

What a loser

Sober as a judge. And I haven't even molested any children yet.

All you have, you epic cunt, is the character - never the message. Just post cat pictures. Do yourself a massive favour.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What you have to ask yourself is why you care?

I have zero interest in women’s football for example, never have never will. I do troll people a bit about it because that’s just how I am. But it’s of no consequence to me…if they win a tournament great…good for them.

Now I’m sure you agree most male pundits and commentators currently employed are completely useless, just the same tired old platitudes from people who either can’t get over their club allegiance or are incapable of holding an original thought in their head…it’s that kind of mindless lack of insight that allowed Jermaine Jenas to make a seamless transition to the One Show.

Ultimately it’s not worth listening to. I love watching games either on mute or in the pub where the noise in the pub is so loud I can’t hear what’s being said anyway.

Im not interested in what this woman has to say because I’m not interested in what any of them have to say. Who Skysports pay to waffle on is their own look out.

[Niall_Quinn]

What you have to ask yourself is why you care?

I have zero interest in women’s football for example, never have never will. I do troll people a bit about it because that’s just how I am. But it’s of no consequence to me…if they win a tournament great…good for them.

Now I’m sure you agree most male pundits and commentators currently employed are completely useless, just the same tired old platitudes from people who either can’t get over their club allegiance or are incapable of holding an original thought in their head…it’s that kind of mindless lack of insight that allowed Jermaine Jenas to make a seamless transition to the One Show.

Ultimately it’s not worth listening to. I love watching games either on mute or in the pub where the noise in the pub is so loud I can’t hear what’s being said anyway.

Im not interested in what this woman has to say because I’m not interested in what any of them have to say. Who Skysports pay to waffle on is their own look out.

I'll tell you why - because I don't want pedophilia to become legal and fashionable. And yes, there's a LONG way to go from here to there but it's all interconnected. You have to disassemble every norm before a new norm can be established. Is women commenting on mens' sports a big deal in isolation - of course not. Irritating, yes. A fundamental threat to our way of life? No. But as one cut in a thousand cuts - it's still a cut and should still be called out. Like the so-called athletics authorities refusing to ban trannies from women's sport. This tells you the shit going on has nothing to do with equality but everything to do with disruption.

Anyway, I watched an episode of Saint and Greavesie (used to loathe those bastards) dated back to the opening day of the season right after we'd done the business at Anfield. It's on YouTube. Have a watch. Hilarious and nobody died.

Real women are perfectly able to fight their own corner btw. They don't need the approval or favours of simpering beta males.

[Letters]

https://owl.excelsior.edu/argument-and-critical-thinking/logical-fallacies/logical-fallacies-slippery-slope

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'll tell you why - because I don't want pedophilia to become legal and fashionable. And yes, there's a LONG way to go from here to there but it's all interconnected. You have to disassemble every norm before a new norm can be established. Is women commenting on mens' sports a big deal in isolation - of course not. Irritating, yes. A fundamental threat to our way of life? No. But as one cut in a thousand cuts - it's still a cut and should still be called out. Like the so-called athletics authorities refusing to ban trannies from women's sport. This tells you the shit going on has nothing to do with equality but everything to do with disruption.

Anyway, I watched an episode of Saint and Greavesie (used to loathe those bastards) dated back to the opening day of the season right after we'd done the business at Anfield. It's on YouTube. Have a watch. Hilarious and nobody died.

Real women are perfectly able to fight their own corner btw. They don't need the approval or favours of simpering beta males.

So all roads that deviate from the norm ultimately lead to paedophilia being legalised and acceptable?

The problem with that is then you have to establish a norm that can never be deviated from and in a world of constant flux and change that’s kind of setting yourself up to live in a state of perpetual anger and dread.

Now I think I speak for everyone in this group when I say no one wants to see sexual abuse of children ever be de-stigmatised. It’s abhorrent in that the harm it does to the most vulnerable and need of protection is incalculable. As long as I’m alive I will always want it looked upon with fear and revulsion.

Now I think in that sense, that society reflects the attitudes on this board despite the attempt of a fucked up minority to push their views into the mainstream by adopting acronyms like MAP as if it’s just someone being different and not someone who at the least needs psychological intervention or needs castrating and being kept locked away where they can never do harm.

Attitudes change over time of course, I personally think we’ve gone too far in our need to be accepting that we’ve got mainstream politicians advocating for the removal of safeguards that prevent predatory men entering women’s spaces. And whilst you’re right that women do not need cucks to speak up for them on whether they are qualified to do football commentary (they don’t need your validation and compliance…if you think women have no place in men’s football that materially does not affect them) I do think they need more men to stand up to the bearded wokesters who call them bigots for not taking their word for it that trans people mean them no harm (especially in the face of prevailing evidence)

What I generally don’t do is believe that this wooly thinking was the natural consequences of something like allowing gays to marry (although as a freedom of conscience kind of chap, I neither feel the church should be compelled to marry gays or anyone should believe that being gay or a bloke marrying another bloke is ok if that’s not how they feel)

So my attitude is fine be vigilant, there are a few hills I’m prepared to die on but stopppng noncery being acceptable is definitely one. But I personally wouldn’t give my energy to something I don’t give a fuck about but may lead to noncery by a thousand degrees of seperation.

What I’m going to say now goes against many of my ultimately cynical beliefs in human beings but in the main I have faith in people over this, there was an attempt by kiddy diddlers before to gain a foothold by stealth (PIE - Paedophile information exchange) and it failed…any such attempt will fail in future because people never fully lose their sense of smell.

Ultimately in many ways we’ve made positive progress over this, because in the past it wasn’t spoken about and victims of these monsters were told to keep quiet. And it’s one of those examples of sunlight being a good disinfectant

[Letters]

Ultimately in many ways we’ve made positive progress over this, because in the past it wasn’t spoken about and victims of these monsters were told to keep quiet. And it’s one of those examples of sunlight being a good disinfectant
Right. Attitudes in society of course change over time, but I don't buy that there's a clear direction of travel towards the sort of degeneracy which would see paedophilia becoming either legal or fashionable.

Some things have got worse - the level of swearing has increased in society and that's reflected on TV. As a kid it was headline news if someone said "the F word" on TV. Now shows are littered with it, and "the C word" is becoming more common. I regard that as a bad thing although not everyone would agree. Society has become more sexualised, the lyrics and videos for music videos now just wouldn't have been allowed when I was young, the internet has meant that any type of porn is available to anyone at the click of a button, kids are exposed to that far younger than they should be and are far less innocent than they used to be. I think that's bad too.
But other "norms" have been disassembled in a positive way. Racism and homophobia were the norm when I was a kid. The punchline of many jokes was Paddy being thick or someone being gay. Those things are now frowned upon. One could argue some of that goes too far, but overall it's a bit lazy when the punchline is a person being of a certain race or sexuality.

In terms of child abuse, there's far more awareness these days. Youth groups have safeguarding policies in place to make sure children and adults are protected (children protected from abuse, adults from accusations).
Teachers are trained to spot potential signs of abuse at home, none of that was in place when I was a kid. I have to do mandatory training about it at work FFS and my role is literally nothing to do with working with kids and is unlikely to ever be so. I'd suggest we are further as a society from any of this stuff being acceptable than 30 or 40 years ago. Stuff like Minipops on C4, was thought "just a bit of fun" and now we look back on it thinking "yeah, that wasn't great". Not every change in society is a step towards the last days of Rome.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Right. Attitudes in society of course change over time, but I don't buy that there's a clear direction of travel towards the sort of degeneracy which would see paedophilia becoming either legal or fashionable.

Some things have got worse - the level of swearing has increased in society and that's reflected on TV. As a kid it was headline news if someone said "the F word" on TV. Now shows are littered with it, and "the C word" is becoming more common. I regard that as a bad thing although not everyone would agree. Society has become more sexualised, the lyrics and videos for music videos now just wouldn't have been allowed when I was young, the internet has meant that any type of porn is available to anyone at the click of a button, kids are exposed to that far younger than they should be and are far less innocent than they used to be. I think that's bad too.
But other "norms" have been disassembled in a positive way. Racism and homophobia were the norm when I was a kid. The punchline of many jokes was Paddy being thick or someone being gay. Those things are now frowned upon. One could argue some of that goes too far, but overall it's a bit lazy when the punchline is a person being of a certain race or sexuality.

In terms of child abuse, there's far more awareness these days. Youth groups have safeguarding policies in place to make sure children and adults are protected (children protected from abuse, adults from accusations).
Teachers are trained to spot potential signs of abuse at home, none of that was in place when I was a kid. I have to do mandatory training about it at work FFS and my role is literally nothing to do with working with kids and is unlikely to ever be so. I'd suggest we are further as a society from any of this stuff being acceptable than 30 or 40 years ago. Stuff like Minipops on C4, was thought "just a bit of fun" and now we look back on it thinking "yeah, that wasn't great". Not every chance in society is a step towards the last days of Rome.

What counts as progression and what counts as a step towards a dystopia is completely subjective of course. However I decided to approach what NQ said from the perspective of it being reasonable to not want our society to degrade into one where paedophilia is acceptable. Now do I think it likely that having women speak on football is a step along a long pathway to that rather hideous outcome? No I don’t. But I’m not going to assume NQ is just being controversial for the sake of it, it could well be something he genuinely fears happening and therefore I’d rather set out my stall for why I don’t agree rather than simply dismiss.
It’s not actually that uncommon a view, there is quite a lot of people who believe that permissiveness has been nothing but a way of laying the groundwork towards something which would horrify us. Now I am 95% sure that’s simply not the case, but the reason I’m not 100% sure is because we are currently entrenched in a battle over the expansion of rights that includes on one side of the argument a complete failure to acknowledge how this would trample on the rights of a larger group.

In terms of what is more acceptable, I think you’ll realise that I have little issue with foul language (though I accept it does not exactly make one more sophisticated and I definitely do not like the idea of swearing in front of kids). Conversely though if you ever read or listen to a linguist expert called John McWhorter who is especially interested in the advent of swear words or taboo words (almost every culture has developed this) you get a great understanding of the stock we put into language and the absurdity of inventing words only then to discourage people from using them down the line.

Language like attitudes are always evolving and I think for many of us as we get older there’s an attitude of stop the ride I want to get off. Without wishing just to placate people, I get it and it’s obvious to a degree that you get it.

What particularly irks me about current social change is the believed necessity of corralling others to believe what they believe. Maybe words like bigot and racist should have very little currency but the fact is they do when in a society where people on the whole want to fit in, don’t want to be accused of these things. And therefore it becomes a form of coercive control…you will only be accepted if you believe what we want you to. In fact that’s a cult mentality right there, now of course there’s nothing wrong with groups forming of people of shared beliefs but then you have the option of opting in or opting out without a fear of being ostracised by the whole of society.

I don’t in anyway need NQ to take a different stance on women pundits, one because I don’t really feel that strongly either way on the subject and two because his view doesn’t impact upon mine so when I asked him why he cares it was from a place of genuine curiousity

[IBK]

What particularly irks me about current social change is the believed necessity of corralling others to believe what they believe. Maybe words like bigot and racist should have very little currency but the fact is they do when in a society where people on the whole want to fit in, don’t want to be accused of these things. And therefore it becomes a form of coercive control…you will only be accepted if you believe what we want you to. In fact that’s a cult mentality right there, now of course there’s nothing wrong with groups forming of people of shared beliefs but then you have the option of opting in or opting out without a fear of being ostracised by the whole of society.

Love this. We are moving as society to a position where nothing can be debated freely. If someone expresses a counter opinion to the accepted 'norm' then they are hated and ostracised for expressing that opinion. This suppresses any sensible debate and therefore restricts constructive outcomes - that generally depend on listening to opposing views. There is very rarely a black and white situation, and by being siloed in one's own opinion, and listening only to those whose views coincide with your own you in fact become more extreme - while often (these days) congratulating yourself on your own virtuousness. A great (and rarely recognised) irony.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What particularly irks me about current social change is the believed necessity of corralling others to believe what they believe. Maybe words like bigot and racist should have very little currency but the fact is they do when in a society where people on the whole want to fit in, don’t want to be accused of these things. And therefore it becomes a form of coercive control…you will only be accepted if you believe what we want you to. In fact that’s a cult mentality right there, now of course there’s nothing wrong with groups forming of people of shared beliefs but then you have the option of opting in or opting out without a fear of being ostracised by the whole of society.

Love this. We are moving as society to a position where nothing can be debated freely. If someone expresses a counter opinion to the accepted 'norm' then they are hated and ostracised for expressing that opinion. This suppresses any sensible debate and therefore restricts constructive outcomes - that generally depend on listening to opposing views. There is very rarely a black and white situation, and by being siloed in one's own opinion, and listening only to those whose views coincide with your own you in fact become more extreme - while often (these days) congratulating yourself on your own virtuousness. A great (and rarely recognised) irony.

This is to say the least a very meaty subject. On your point of people becoming siloed….yep I think to some extent we are all guilty of it despite even having the intention of being a heterodox thinker. The internet and social media has definitely gone some way towards facilitating this, and ironically the rise of multiple options of information sources has resulted in us trying to find that which confirms our biases.
The real problem is us, and for some reason now more than ever we attach so much meaning and weight to what our opinions are that they become indistinguishable from personal moral values. So in an attempt to understand someone who will act angrily to their opinions being criticised, it’s because they’ve absorbed these opinions in such a way that any disagreement feels like a personal attack.
Why that is? People who are Christian will tell you that it results from the vacuum created from society becoming over time a less religious one. Now actually as a non believer i think there probably is some truth to that, even though I think it’s not the complete picture and as always it’s more complicated.
But i can see some logic in thinking that a society where values were governed by an upbringing where your assessment of right and wrong, desirable or undesirable was at the very least heavily influenced by the teachings of the Church…it’s not unreasonable to suggest that the rapid diminishment of the relevance of an institution like The Church of England or the various other denominations has left people scrambling around looking for some sense of certainty of belief to attach themselves to.
We don’t deal well with uncertainty, even when it exists all around us.
And thus we kind of see the rise of a kind of Millenarianism…call it Wokeness, call it Social Justice (although Social Justice feels too broad a term) is a belief in a postmodernist theory that believes that everything needs to be torn down because learning, language, institutions and structures are symbols of oppression meant to favour white men in perpetuity. And this has heavily influenced the Trans debate (in my view) that ideas of defining people by biological sex are simply co-opting people into a repressive way of thinking and true liberation can only come when we abandon classification in favour of self identification.
Very simplistic overview and I don’t think everyone views Trans rights through this prism but it certainly appears to have come from marrying Transgenderism and what’s called Queer Theory.
The problem is institutions are now starting to adopt sociological theory as a dominant worldview…and with that comes the expectation that you’re either with us or you’re an oppressor.
It is the new religion for many, and critique is akin to heresy. Because you’re not attacking an ideology you’re attacking people…a very powerful way to disincentivise skepticism.
However I do accept that you’re referring quite generally to the practice of people being unable to cope with disagreement and this clearly does not explain all cases of that.

[Letters]

What particularly irks me about current social change is the believed necessity of corralling others to believe what they believe. Maybe words like bigot and racist should have very little currency but the fact is they do when in a society where people on the whole want to fit in, don’t want to be accused of these things. And therefore it becomes a form of coercive control…you will only be accepted if you believe what we want you to. In fact that’s a cult mentality right there, now of course there’s nothing wrong with groups forming of people of shared beliefs but then you have the option of opting in or opting out without a fear of being ostracised by the whole of society.

Love this. We are moving as society to a position where nothing can be debated freely. If someone expresses a counter opinion to the accepted 'norm' then they are hated and ostracised for expressing that opinion. This suppresses any sensible debate and therefore restricts constructive outcomes - that generally depend on listening to opposing views. There is very rarely a black and white situation, and by being siloed in one's own opinion, and listening only to those whose views coincide with your own you in fact become more extreme - while often (these days) congratulating yourself on your own virtuousness. A great (and rarely recognised) irony.

:gp:

It is an irony that "bigot" now means "not subscribing to the proscribed way of thinking". Anything deviating from that is now bigotry or hate speech. It's pretty tiresome and prevents any sensible debates about complex issues like trans rights.

[Niall_Quinn]

So all roads that deviate from the norm ultimately lead to paedophilia being legalised and acceptable?

Didn't read the rest of it after you framed the argument like that. But feel free to try again.

[Niall_Quinn]

What counts as progression and what counts as a step towards a dystopia is completely subjective of course.

That's a non-sensical statement, or an apology. "Progress" is the enhancement of the human condition and circumstance, from our perspective at least. It's VERY easy to spot the difference between good and evil and if you can't even manage that much then never claim to be moral. Morality is the thought behind the action that's the reaction to evil. Evil is not in the eye of the beholder. It is the harm caused to life and private property. It's so simple that it amazes me when sentient human beings dare to debate it. Are you alive? Yes or no. You will say yes without a thought. So exists good and evil. It doesn't need to be analysed because the former has beneficiaries and the latter has victims. Simple.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Didn't read the rest of it after you framed the argument like that. But feel free to try again.

I won’t but thanks

[Niall_Quinn]

Might be the wrong thread for this, in some ways. Although Utd are undoubtedly evil and a blight on humanity.

[Niall_Quinn]

I won’t but thanks

Always your choice.

[Niall_Quinn]

I won’t but thanks

Remember what I was saying about the NPC wankers? Hard work, isn't it?

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's a non-sensical statement, or an apology. "Progress" is the enhancement of the human condition and circumstance, from our perspective at least. It's VERY easy to spot the difference between good and evil and if you can't even manage that much then never claim to be moral. Morality is the thought behind the action that's the reaction to evil. Evil is not in the eye of the beholder. It is the harm caused to life and private property. It's so simple that it amazes me when sentient human beings dare to debate it. Are you alive? Yes or no. You will say yes without a thought. So exists good and evil. It doesn't need to be analysed because the former has beneficiaries and the latter has victims. Simple.

Ok this requires only a yes or no. Is your assertion that a female football pundit is a step towards legalised Paedophilia an objective fact or a subjective opinion?

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp:

It is an irony that "bigot" now means "not subscribing to the proscribed way of thinking". Anything deviating from that is now bigotry or hate speech. It's pretty tiresome and prevents any sensible debates about complex issues like trans rights.

Good God, do you have no shame whatsoever?

[Niall_Quinn]

Ok this requires only a yes or no. Is your assertion that a female football pundit is a step towards legalised Paedophilia an objective fact or a subjective opinion?

Yes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ok this requires only a yes or no. Is your assertion that a female football pundit is a step towards legalised Paedophilia an objective fact or a subjective opinion?

But the way you framed the question obviously removed all context.

So I guess you can now take the husk of the argument and build a freebie social counter. But we still didn't achieve anything, did we?

[HCZ_Reborn]

But the way you framed the question obviously removed all context.

So I guess you can now take the husk of the argument and build a freebie social counter. But we still didn't achieve anything, did we?

The more obvious point was that I didn’t frame it in a way that made a yes or no response apposite. Long day

But no I’m less interested in a debating society over this matter. If your yes answer was to affirm that for you it’s objective truth…it’s quite revealing. I’m sure you’d show your workings out, but I’d honestly have no more interest in reading it than you have in my original Long form response which you’ll have to take my word for it actually engages with your assertion without just dismissing it

[Niall_Quinn]

The more obvious point was that I didn’t frame it in a way that made a yes or no response apposite. Long day

But no I’m less interested in a debating society over this matter. If your yes answer was to affirm that for you it’s objective truth…it’s quite revealing. I’m sure you’d show your workings out, but I’d honestly have no more interest in reading it than you have in my original Long form response which you’ll have to take my word for it actually engages with your assertion without just dismissing it

No, I genuinely didn't read it. I'm so far past trying to argue with anyone who can't see what's right in front of his face. I'm glad you used the word "objective" which tells me you are operating beyond the usual direct download. But still with the stupid questions. It's like you get bitten once, twice, thrice, again, again, again, and over again and at each step the majority scratches its collective head and asks, is there maybe something up here? The very people they should be questioning say no. And the majority sighs in relief.

So here you are, still asking me if the ruling class is evil. And so I said, "yes". Not sure I need to embellish the obvious. I mean, do you want evidence? That would just be a history lesson, right? Boring.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No, I genuinely didn't read it. I'm so far past trying to argue with anyone who can't see what's right in front of his face. I'm glad you used the word "objective" which tells me you are operating beyond the usual direct download. But still with the stupid questions. It's like you get bitten once, twice, thrice, again, again, again, and over again and at each step the majority scratches its collective head and asks, is there maybe something up here? The very people they should be questioning say no. And the majority sighs in relief.

So here you are, still asking me if the ruling class is evil. And so I said, "yes". Not sure I need to embellish the obvious. I mean, do you want evidence? That would just be a history lesson, right? Boring.

At the risk of becoming metaphysical, The problem is that you and I most likely don’t even share a common conception of Evil, we might believe many of the same things are Evil…but not a common understanding of where that framework came from.

[Niall_Quinn]

At the risk of becoming metaphysical, The problem is that you and I most likely don’t even share a common conception of Evil, we might believe many of the same things are Evil…but not a common understanding of where that framework came from.

Again, I'm wondering what you can possibly mean. How can there be any argument about the definition of evil? Well okay then, explain. Can't wait to hear this one.

[Niall_Quinn]

Better yet, define "good'. Then we can derive its antithesis and the argument disappears.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Better yet, define "good'. Then we can derive its antithesis and the argument disappears.

Note that i said concept not definition

[Niall_Quinn]

Note that i said concept not definition

Why not cut to the chase? Stop teasing and get down to it. You know very well the definitions. People love grey, because that's the territory of emotion. Nothing wrong with that and actually valid. Concepts, ideas, feelings, intuitions, all shades of grey. But definitions. Black. White. Once you try to smudge a definition you have wandered into the realm of emotion, whether it be mental or political. We both know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. Of course we do. But on with the joust. For whatever reason.