General Football Nonsense

[HCZ_Reborn]

Toto Schillachi (which anyone here old enough to remember Italia 90 will remember) has died at 59

[Letters]

7 goals for Italy...6 of them at Italia '90. Weird!

:rose:

While we're here, Gary Shaw of 'Villa fame died the other day.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/clyl083pxd9o

[HCZ_Reborn]

It was one of those seldom occasions where the best team at a World Cup didn’t go on and win it. How Argentina got to that final I will never know, Maradonna was not the Maradonna of 86….and the rest were a bunch of dirty fouling bastards

The Italians would have wiped the floor with the Germans I think.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Italia 90 was a poor tournament that people mainly remember because it was the first semi final we’d made since 66. Defensive football, a lot of 1-0 wins and games decided on pels.

[Letters]

Cameroon :bow:
Milla :bow:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/football__tweet/status/1838115080552226976?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

Filth

[The Wengerbabies]

Our Chesney has signed for Barca

[Marc Overmars]

City have won their case against the PL for the rule about commercial deals with associated companies.

So clubs sponsoring themselves with inflated deals will be legal now. :bow:

This is nothing to do with the 115 charges I should mention. That’s still ongoing but I suspect the PL are going to come out of this mess looking like a joke.

[Mac76]

So clubs sponsoring themselves with inflated deals will be legal now. :bow:



Except Arsenal no doubt

[dazthegooner]

So when do Newcastle announce thier multi billion pound sponsorship deals?

[WMUG]

https://i.redd.it/394neuccxitd1.png

Slightly depressing table showing how league titles across the world are increasingly being won by fewer and fewer teams.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t know what that table is meant to prove because obviously over a 50 year period you are going to have more teams that have won it in that time, than over a ten year period


Between 2014/2015 and 2023/2024 - four different teams have won the league - City, Liverpool, Leicester and Chelsea

If you take the whole of the 1980s - you also had four different winners - Liverpool, Villa, Everton and Arsenal

In that period Liverpool won six of the titles, Everton two, Villa one and Arsenal one.

Football has always been a bit of a closed shop in that regard, what has changed is that the teams at the top aren’t changing so as time goes on you will have the same three or four teams winning over the next fifty years

[Letters]

Football has always been a bit of a closed shop in that regard,
Not really.
Look back into the 50s and 60s. Loads of different champions.
And there was a lot of variation of a team’s quality year to year.
We finished 12th the season before our Double season and 5th the year after.
It’s not really possible to finish mid-table one season and be champions the next now.
(Leicester a possible outlier, but that’s very much the exception).
The gap between the haves and have nots is bigger than it’s ever been and the whole structure of football is set up to keep it that way.
As much as we all despite what City have done, there’s no other way to achieve success now other than to buy your way in. If we do win the title this year it will have been because of spending big.
TL;DR, football is all a bit shit these days.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Not really.
Look back into the 50s and 60s. Loads of different champions.
And there was a lot of variation of a team’s quality year to year.
We finished 12th the season before our Double season and 5th the year after.
It’s not really possible to finish mid-table one season and be champions the next now.
(Leicester a possible outlier, but that’s very much the exception).
The gap between the haves and have nots is bigger than it’s ever been and the whole structure of football is set up to keep it that way.
As much as we all despite what City have done, there’s no other way to achieve success now other than to buy your way in. If we do win the title this year it will have been because of spending big.
TL;DR, football is all a bit shit these days.

So basically what you’re saying is you have to go back to a time before you or I were actually born for things to have been more competitive.


Also the 50s and the 60s were a bit more of an outlier, compared to earlier decades where again you had one team that was dominant (Arsenal in the 1930s for example)


Also I’m pretty sure I did clearly mention that it’s more difficult to get into the more stratified top four or five teams that it ever was.


I think Football has definitely become worse in terms of overall competitiveness, but I’m saying that taking how many different teams have won the league over a certain period is not the best way of proving that

[Letters]

So basically what you’re saying is you have to go back to a time before you or I were actually born for things to have been more competitive.
You said “always”


Also the 50s and the 60s were a bit more of an outlier, compared to earlier decades where again you had one team that was dominant (Arsenal in the 1930s for example)
I’ll have to look into that more to know if that’s true.
But the general point is the game was far more competitive and there was far less of a gap between the haves and have nots. Didn’t Clough take Forest up and then win Divison One the very next season? That’s a bit of an outlier admittedly but my point is now the teams which come up are just fighting for survival all season, such is the gap between the PL and the other divisions. And the expansion of the CL has meant there’s a little group of teams at the top of each big league who are fairly distinct from the rest.


Also I’m pretty sure I did clearly mention that it’s more difficult to get into the more stratified top four or five teams that it ever was.
Then what are we arguing about?!


I think Football has definitely become worse in terms of overall competitiveness
That really isn’t something which needs debating.
Another measure of this is The Double. When I were a lad it was something spoken about in hushed tones, now it’s pretty common, because when the gap between the top few and the rest is so big it’s fairly probable that the champions will also be there or thereabouts in the Cup competition too.


but I’m saying that taking how many different teams have won the league over a certain period is not the best way of proving that
I think it’s a reasonable metric, but it’s certainly not the only one.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My argument from the outset is that I don’t think how many different teams have won the league is that instructive of a metric when talking about the change in football


In last thirty years six different clubs won the title, thirty year period before that nine different clubs


In the thirty year period 1964-1994 - Liverpool won the title thirteen times

In the same thirty year period 1994-now - United have won it 12 times

[Letters]

My argument from the outset is that I don’t think how many different teams have won the league is that instructive of a metric when talking about the change in football
I had a look decade by decade and I think you're basically right because you get one offs like Leicester, Blackburn and Leeds which mask the general trend.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

England: Pickford, Alexander-Arnold, Stones, Colwill, Lewis, Rice, Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Palmer, Gordon.
Subs: Guehi, Walker, Henderson, Gallagher, Livramento, Jones, Watkins, Gomes, Solanke, Pope, Madueke.

Greece: Vlachodimos, Rota, Mavropanos, Koulierakis, Giannoulis, Koubelis, Bakasetas, Siopis, Masouras, Tzolis, Pavlidis.
Subs: Tzolakis, Mandas, Vagiannidis, Retsos, Douvikas, Pelkas, Chatzigiovanis, Chatzidiakos, Konstantelias, Zafeiris, Mantalos.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Quite shitty of UEFA to say this can't be postponed for Baldock's death.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saliba starts for France against Israel.

Calafiori and Trossard both start in Italy v Belgium.

[dazthegooner]

Quite shitty of UEFA to say this can't be postponed for Baldock's death.

It's UEFA what do you expect?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer. :haha:

Bellingham smacks the bar!

Italy 1-0 Belgium, Cambiaso. That was after a minute.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's UEFA what do you expect?

Fair.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Good chance for Greece.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer freekick, over.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Colwill saves Pickford from disaster.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer. :haha:

[dazthegooner]

Palmer. :haha:

Excuse me that’s England’s player of the year (yeah me neither) :shrug:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Great ball from AA, Gordon heads over.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 Greece, Pavlidis! Lovely goal.

[Letters]

1-0 to Greece :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saka off injured, Madueke on.

[Letters]

2-0! :haha:

[Letters]

Will probably be chalked off actually

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-2 Pavlidis again! :haha:

[Letters]

VAR :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh still 0-1

[Letters]

1-1! Bellingham!

He must have a foot like a traction engine!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Bellingham, whoa.

[Letters]

2-1 Greece :haha:

FFS!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-2 Pavlidis!! What a disaster from England at the back.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

England 1-2 Greece, FT!!

:haha:

[Letters]

Hilarious mess at the back for their winner :lol:

[Mac76]

didn't watch but no Ben White still, what did they expect

i see Saka and Rice were the only England players booked, which either means #onlyArsenal is operating at international level or they were the only ones putting any effort in

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hopefully this might make the FA think twice about just appointing Carsley when the media are looking the other way, and that a proper selection process and a proper coach is needed

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Raya starts for Spain against Denmark, Merino on the bench.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Good save from Raya. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Merino is on for Spain!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-0 Zubimendi!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Finland: Hradecky, Alho, Hoskonen, Ivanov, Uronen, Kamara, Schuller, Peltola, Jensen, Kallman, Keskinen
Subs: Joronen, Sinisalo, Galvez, Antman, Lod, Pukki, Stahl, Pikkarainen, Tenho, Nissila, Pohjanpalo, Walta

England: Henderson, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Alexander-Arnold, Angel Gomes, Rice, Bellingham, Palmer, Grealish, Kane
Subs: Pope Pickford, Lewis, Livramento, Colwill, Foden, Gallagher, Watkins, Gordon, Solanke, Madueke

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 England, Grealish

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What a miss from Jensen for Finland.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer hauled off, Madueke on.

Kane off, Watkins on.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-2 AA, great freekick.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-3 Rice!!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-3. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Belgium v France is on now.

Germany v Netherlands too.

Both are on Youtube, viaplay international.

Saliba and Trossard both start.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Konate. :lol:

What was he doing.

Calafiori is playing against Israel too

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saliba knew Openda was offside. :unsure:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's not offside and a pelanty for Belgium!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tielemans skies it!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pelanty to France.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Openda.

Saliba is having a stinker. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Belgium 1-2 France, Kolo Muani!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tchouameni sent off!

[Mac76]

1-1 Openda.

Saliba is having a stinker. :lol:

probably trying to get himself dropped so he can focus on the league :good:

[dazthegooner]

Or fending off interest from Real Marketing.

[Marc Overmars]

Thomas Tuchel is favourite for the England job.

[Mac76]

Thomas Tuchel is favourite for the England job.

:haha:

I can just see all the English bulldog fans loving a Gerrman being in charge

[Letters]

Thomas Tuchel is favourite for the England job.

Confirmed.

Interesting choice. Spoiler alert:
We will fail under him. It’s our thing.
England are the Spurs of international football. Not terrible but never win anything and a constant feeling that we’re not quite as good as we should be

[HCZ_Reborn]

Tuchel kind of flew in under the radar

He’s someone who shall we say has a mixed record at club level. But given he’s coached Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Dortmund and PSG….he definitely has experience.

We need to evaluate defence and up front, but I still say with some of the players we have in the squad, there’s no reason why we can’t as I stated some time ago go into the North American tournament as favourites.

That of course guarantees nothing. But Spain are nothing special, France is on the wain, Germany is in Transition, Argentina in many respects were lucky to win the last World Cup and Brazil cannot seem to get things right (though I wouldn’t rule them out, in fact if I was asked to choose a winner in two years time it would be us or them)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m going to leave this as a marker here.

I think it’s almost certain we will end up playing Germany at the next World Cup

[GP]

This isn't the brexit I was promised.

[Letters]

We need to evaluate defence and up front, but I still say with some of the players we have in the squad, there’s no reason why we can’t as I stated some time ago go into the North American tournament as favourites.
You did.
I didn’t agree with you then, I don’t agree now.
I think what we will actually see is more failure and maybe some reflection that Southgate wasn’t so bad after all.
England are the Spurs of international football. We’re not that bad but we never win anything and there’s often a feeling that we should maybe be doing a bit better.
It’s the ‘istory of England, I believe in the ‘istory.

Prove me wrong, chaps, prove me wrong!
Obviously I’d love it, just love it, if they did. I can’t really see it though

[HCZ_Reborn]

You did.
I didn’t agree with you then, I don’t agree now.
I think what we will actually see is more failure and maybe some reflection that Southgate wasn’t so bad after all.
England are the Spurs of international football. We’re not that bad but we never win anything and there’s often a feeling that we should maybe be doing a bit better.
It’s the ‘istory of England, I believe in the ‘istory.

Prove me wrong, chaps, prove me wrong!
Obviously I’d love it, just love it, if they did. I can’t really see it though

In fairness your analysis is more just jaded cynicism, of course jaded cynicism is totally understandable And there’s no reason why you believe my opinion is any different to that of the eternally optimistic. I can tell you however that the national team means almost nothing to me compared to Arsenal, whilst I’d sooner us win games than not….i can’t say I have the same nerves when England go into a big game than Arsenal do, when we lost on pels to Italy I was slightly disappointed and when we lost to Spain in July I really didn’t care at all barring the hope that Southgate would be going.
Your response suggests that it proves that Southgate did a good job as coach to get us to back to back euro finals, my way of looking at it is that it proves the quality that we have at our disposal when even a mediocre like Southgate can get us to two finals.

Southgate in fairness did a good job he took us on when we were in the Doldrums, but it’s fair to say that he stayed too long. And that the Euros and how we played showed that he was holding us back. When even the pundits and commentators who constantly lionised Southgate were getting frustrated by his negative tactics, you could tell there was something wrong.

I think the reason we might be considered favourites is simply because the squad is better than any other team in world football right now barring maybe Brazil. The so called golden generation under the late Sven, well at best it was on a par with several other talented national teams. The fact is there isn’t the strength in depth in international football currently and this is why we have this short window of opportunity.
After the World Cup it may well be gone as I expect the Germans to become a force again, France to be revitalised etc. We’ve already squandered the opportunity to win the Euros by keeping Southgate longer than we should have.
2026 represents our best chance to win the World Cup since 1966, I’m not sure Tuchel is the best coach to get us over the line, but I’m certainly not convinced that he’s not.

[Mac76]

You did.
I didn’t agree with you then, I don’t agree now.
I think what we will actually see is more failure and maybe some reflection that Southgate wasn’t so bad after all.
England are the Spurs of international football. We’re not that bad but we never win anything and there’s often a feeling that we should maybe be doing a bit better.
It’s the ‘istory of England, I believe in the ‘istory.

Prove me wrong, chaps, prove me wrong!
Obviously I’d love it, just love it, if they did. I can’t really see it though

I get where you're coming from but I don't agree England always has to be stuck in the bridesmaid role, tbh I'm glad we've won nothing in recent times as it would further fuel rising English supremicism, but a Jurgen Klopp or Guardiola is winning something with that squad (assuming Ben White comes.back into the fold)

[Marc Overmars]

You’ve got to think that Tuchel will bring a lot more to the table tactically, I’ve always felt he was a decent coach but just took on poisoned chalices in PSG and Chelsea. You also have to respect the fact he rather sickeningly won the CL for Chelsea despite them being nowhere near the best in Europe. He only needs to navigate less than 10 games and I think having a coach like him is worth a go because we won’t have many more opportunities while the landscape of international football is kind of shit. We need something short term to just get this group of players firing.

It’s only a one tournament deal too so I’d say The FA have certainly targeted winning the World Cup. If we fail then I assume he will be moved on and by then someone like Howe might be available for a longer stint.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I get where you're coming from but I don't agree England always has to be stuck in the bridesmaid role, tbh I'm glad we've won nothing in recent times as it would further fuel rising English supremicism, but a Jurgen Klopp or Guardiola is winning something with that squad (assuming Ben White comes.back into the fold)


I sometimes think we live in parallel dimensions as I don’t know where this supposed “English supremacy” is coming from. All I’ve heard for years from both left, right, liberal…every political direction is talking the country down. Be it excess wokery or Brexit, the country is in terminal decline.
Calling it Rainy fascist island or the populist right cheering on that narcissistic man child Elon Musk when he’s actively trying to destabilise the country using Twitter.

No one it seems is proud to be English or British, because they aren’t living in a country where their ideological idealism is being fulfilled.


Equally this assumption that fans will have a problem with the FA appointing a German is a mistaken assumption held by left and right. The left because of the sneering contempt they hold the working class in, and the right who have equal contempt for them but want to utilise them as useful idiots…starting with the Daily Mail trying to rile up xenophobic sentiment on its back pages this morning.

Mostly what I’ve seen from almost all quarters about the Tuchel appointment is what I could best describe as “cautious optimism”.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/jonnygabriel/status/1846154883780493500?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

[Letters]

In fairness your analysis is more just jaded cynicism
It definitely is, but that doesn't make it wrong.


And there’s no reason why you believe my opinion is any different to that of the eternally optimistic.
I don't think your opinion is based on a mindless optimism, it's certainly true that we have a good squad right now. Whatever you think of Southgate, getting to two Euros finals, a World Cup semi-final and a World Cup Quarter Final in which we lost to eventual finalists, it's the best run in my lifetime. The only finals in my lifetime, the only final on foreign soil ever. I'm struggling to believe that he just lucked out with a good set of players, we've had good squads before and not achieved much with them.
Obviously if Tuchel does win us a World Cup then I will revise my opinion, but I'm struggling to see it - that is based on jaded cynicism admittedly, but not baseless jaded cynicism. It's based on decades of this shit.


Southgate in fairness did a good job he took us on when we were in the Doldrums, but it’s fair to say that he stayed too long. And that the Euros and how we played showed that he was holding us back. When even the pundits and commentators who constantly lionised Southgate were getting frustrated by his negative tactics, you could tell there was something wrong.
There was a lot of criticism of him in the group stage in which we were awful, but we grew in to the tournament and actually deserved our final spot. We lost to the best team in the tournament. They weren't unbeatable. Would a better manager have won us it? It's obviously impossible to know, hardly worth debating.

Tuchel is clearly a better manager than Southgate BUT I would note that sometimes a manager and team just work well together, and with Southgate and England that seemed to be the case, just like with Emery and Arsenal it didn't. I will continue my jaded cynicism but obviously hope I'm wrong.

[Letters]

https://x.com/jonnygabriel/status/1846154883780493500?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

:haha:

Brilliant.

[Mac76]

Equally this assumption that fans will have a problem with the FA appointing a German is a mistaken assumption held by left and right. The left because of the sneering contempt they hold the working class in, and the right who have equal contempt for them but want to utilise them as useful idiots…starting with the Daily Mail trying to rile up xenophobic sentiment on its back pages this morning.



Most people on the left are working class, Labour is a working class movement, so are the socailist Workers etc - i admit Momentum is a bit more studenty but I think that will fade out anyway

yes the right wing media (which is far by far most of it in this country) try and make being working class synonymous with being right wing and nationalist

but you can't tell me there's a fair few people in this country who don't think "I want England to win because I'm English and it's fun to cheer on your national team"

instead they think "I want England to win because England are the best country with the best football team"

we all know if England had pubbed the Euros there would have been none of "we were lucky" and all of "we deserved to win" etc

That's what I personally object to, it is a form of supremicism and in these decisive days it's yet more fuel to those who want to fracture society and impose mob rule

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I disagree completely, the current modern left is in no way working class whatsoever. It’s middle class, urban and city dwelling and university educated.

The old working class left has long since abandoned the left because of the way it looks down on them. This is especially true in America, where the vast majority of people who work in unionised labour are Trump supporters…and Trump is popular in the former industrial heartlands which used to massively Democrat voters but the Democrats instead now appeal to the professional class who live either in cities or the suburbs. And this is why they struggle more in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania and they are doing well in more gentrified states like Virginia, Colorado which used to be heavily Republican.


It’s cultural divergence.


On the whole England fan matter, when you go to the Emirates stadium and the fans start chanting “we are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen?” do you think the fanbase mean that literally or do you think it’s just hyperbole.

Every fan base thinks they have the greatest team, the Brazilians, the Germans, The Argentines etc. You can argue that because we haven’t had success we should be more humble but that’s not how football fandom works.

Despite the media’s attempts to paint England fans as thugs based on historical reputation, the fact of the matter is our travelling support are people from all walks of life going to a different country to enjoy themselves, support the national team and hope that it lasts as long as possible.

Not sure it’s something I’d do myself (although I do want to try and go to North America in 2026, not so much for England but to both catch up with family and see a World Cup match…as one of the venues Levi Stadium (the 49ers stadium) is quite near where family members of mine live) but I don’t see the need to sneer at it.

[Letters]

instead they think "I want England to win because England are the best country with the best football team"
I'm not saying that no-one thinks that way, but I don't think it's as common as it used to be.

[Mac76]

No I disagree completely, the current modern left is in no way working class whatsoever. It’s middle class, urban and city dwelling and university educated.



I know a lot of Labour members and that is not true I'm afraid, you're just resorting to a cliche

yes the preppy advisers and quite a few of the MPs are university educated, but not the movement itself

i get some lifelong Labour households went Tory during the Thatcher era and then post-2016, but still, those involved in the left movement are often working class

and that's the point, we're not talking about voters, but actual followers of the rank-and-file movement

[HCZ_Reborn]

I know a lot of Labour members and that is not true I'm afraid, you're just resorting to a cliche

yes the preppy advisers and quite a few of the MPs are university educated, but not the movement itself

i get some lifelong Labour households went Tory during the Thatcher era and then post-2016, but still, those involved in the left movement are often working class

and that's the point, we're not talking about voters, but actual followers of the rank-and-file movement

I used to be a Labour Party member and if anything what I’ve said applies even more to the rank and file movement. It’s not perhaps relevant as to be a member of any political party in this day and age is something a middle class political hobbyist would be…..despite what Oscar Wilde stated it’s not just socialism that takes up too many evenings.

The Labour Party is a progressive party, which means like with many parties on the left its core base tends to be those who regard themselves as socially progressive, where as previously it concerned itself more with representation of the working man. Because the type of work that usually involved unionised labour largely doesn’t exist anymore and because unions are largely a form of racketeering in this country, the actual worker who works in service, retail etc are not represented.
Where as those who join Labour are as I say from the professional arts subject at university class.
And I’m saying this as someone who is middle class and educated….

[Mac76]

I used to be a Labour Party member and if anything what I’ve said applies even more to the rank and file movement. It’s not perhaps relevant as to be a member of any political party in this day and age is something a middle class political hobbyist would be…..despite what Oscar Wilde stated it’s not just socialism that takes up too many evenings.

The Labour Party is a progressive party, which means like with many parties on the left its core base tends to be those who regard themselves as socially progressive, where as previously it concerned itself more with representation of the working man. Because the type of work that usually involved unionised labour largely doesn’t exist anymore and because unions are largely a form of racketeering in this country, the actual worker who works in service, retail etc are not represented.
Where as those who join Labour are as I say from the professional arts subject at university class.
And I’m saying this as someone who is middle class and educated….

And I'm saying as someone who knows a lot of Labour members in more than one area that you're wrong :)

yes it has its fair share of the type of people you desceribe but it's still in my experience predominantly working class

although i despair at the fact that this country is still so class-based, I thought the whole point of Thatcher was to reduce the class divide, but thanks to the seterotype of 'working class values' reinforced by the media - from Eastenders to teh SUn - its still with us and one of the worst things about this country

[HCZ_Reborn]

And I'm saying as someone who knows a lot of Labour members in more than one area that you're wrong :)

yes it has its fair share of the type of people you desceribe but it's still in my experience predominantly working class

although i despair at the fact that this country is still so class-based, I thought the whole point of Thatcher was to reduce the class divide, but thanks to the seterotype of 'working class values' reinforced by the media - from Eastenders to teh SUn - its still with us and one of the worst things about this country

Ah I see you’re doing that thing again where you assert something despite paucity of evidence.


And again no the opposite is true, despite the fact social mobility is far lower than it should be…the old stratified class system does not in fact exist as it did, and when people identify as working class what they are doing is scarcely different from a teenager with pink hair identifying as non binary. It’s nothing new, Harold Wilson used to cosplay being working class despite being an academic elitist. The difference between him and the people you know is that he was aware this was an illusion.

As I said earlier today, we don’t share contiguous reality…..I live in the real world and you live in some construct that has been manufactured as part of a collaborative effort between Alan Bleasdale and Ken Loach which Ben Elton wants to turn into a musical

[HCZ_Reborn]

Getting the pundit class doing performative bitching because an Englishman wasn’t chosen

I personally don’t care that much, I think on balance it’s better to have an English coach because the coach of successful national sides usually is a citizen of that nation.

So there’s a prestige element. But ultimately for that to be tenable you need more ex players prepared to get into coaching rather than the comfortable pundit job when their playing career is over (Rooney may be a dickhead, but he’s prepared to give it a go in the championship) and you also need more premier league clubs prepared to give English coaches an opportunity.

We have four from 20 English coaches in the premier league. That tells you why we have a German coach

[Letters]

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

Precisely

Yeah I like to see English Arsenal players as well, but like with English England coach it’s a would like, rather than must have

[Mac76]

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

I agree, it's more fun in general if national coaches are from the country that the team is representing.

However we continue to struggle in this country to bring through people with the right level of tactical nous etc.

I'm not sure if that's a poor education system, lack of sophistication in the lower leagues (where most English coaches are) or what. English football's still full of Mike Bassetts IMO, which probably feeds through into the quality of training new coaches get when they do their badges

Look at the attitude of that Steve Holland c**t who pissed off Ben White, there's still too much of that mentality

[HCZ_Reborn]

There’s also too much of this self hating English mentality which people seem to embody ever since Brexit

The irony of it, is these people don’t realise just how parochial they sound. That somehow England is this primitive backwater compared to the sophisticated Europeans. Nativism and this supremacist attitude that is bemoaned exists throughout the continent, in fact arguably you can say that it’s more pronounced.

I think it’s this kind of snobbery that provides a barrier to those from working class backgrounds getting on in life in any walk of life, and this is why government and civil service still looks very much like an Oxbridge alumni old boys network

The problem to me is two fold, I don’t think there is the incentive for ex professionals to take on coaching either at home or abroad (people like Graham Potter going to manage in Sweden is an outlier, and before that Woy was the most high profile coach to work abroad). It’s not a failure of formal education, because like with playing the game itself there is something intuitive about tactical innovation.

I think often it’s just safer to take on a cosy media role where you don’t face the scrutiny and pressure

It’s only now we are seeing English players being prepared to try their hand in foreign leagues, with both Jadon Sancho and Jude Bellingham having played for Borussia Dortmund and for those who want to understand the different philosophies of football, I think this may be beneficial (although that said it didn’t do much for Glenn Hoddle)

The other thing is that Premier league clubs I think do have a degree of bias against English coaches and even mid table clubs and relegation scrappers are more inclined to install a foreign coach than take a chance with someone who has done a good job in the Lower leagues. It’s not explicitly anti English, it’s not wanting to take the risk on someone without experience and often it was that the same British coaches would be recycled amongst the clubs - Sam Allardyce, Steve Bruce, David Moyes, Mark Hughes etc.

[Letters]

The big problem with English players or managers working overseas is our utter ineptitude at, or maybe indifference for, learning other languages.
English has become a sort of global language - in no small part thanks to my organisation - so we don't really make the effort.
We have gap year students at our church each year from Germany. They come over here at 18 and their English is all but flawless - we can talk to them like I'd talk to any English person. Compare and contrast with my going to France. I could ask where the beach is but I doubt I'd understand the answer.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The big problem with English players or managers working overseas is our utter ineptitude at, or maybe indifference for, learning other languages.
English has become a sort of global language - in no small part thanks to my organisation - so we don't really make the effort.
We have gap year students at our church each year from Germany. They come over here at 18 and their English is all but flawless - we can talk to them like I'd talk to any English person. Compare and contrast with my going to France. I could ask where the beach is but I doubt I'd understand the answer.

Again there’s no natural ineptitude, we just don’t take it seriously enough to teach foreign languages from an early age

If someone like David Beckham can just about handle speaking Spanish competently (and he could) there’s no reason why others can’t pick up language skills. Plus it can work both ways, I love Robert Pires but the guy was clearly utterly hopeless at speaking English.

[Mac76]

There’s also too much of this self hating English mentality which people seem to embody ever since Brexit


Really?

I see exactly the opposite - bulldogs and flags everywhere, a stupid denial - or almost as bad, an acceptance - of the economic and social damage done because of a backwards-looking illogical sense of not wanting them foreigners over 'ere and 'taking back control' which is nonsense in a global economy

[Mac76]

It’s only now we are seeing English players being prepared to try their hand in foreign leagues

Oh dear... :rolleyes:

ever heard of Gary Lineker? Chris Waddle? Michael Owen? Trevor Francis? Paul Ince? Glen Hoddle? David Beckham? Steve MacManaman? Kevin Keegan? Owen Hargreaves? Mark Hately?

Or perhaps our own Tony Woodcock? David Platt?

:haha:

[Letters]

Again there’s no natural ineptitude, we just don’t take it seriously enough to teach foreign languages from an early age
Well obviously there's no natural ineptitude, there's a laziness or indifference. And it is a stumbling block for us working abroad.
Individual examples like Beckham* or Pires are irrelevant to the general fact they all them foreigners, particularly in Europe, tend to speak better English than we do their languages.
Which is also, he says trying not to talk about Brexit, one issue with being in the EU and freedom of movement. We are a rich nation, so there's opportunities here, and we speak English which makes it easier to find work here.


*Lineker is a better example, he can speak Spanish fluently following his time in Barcelona, but he is smarter than the average bear.

[Mac76]

Well obviously there's no natural ineptitude, there's a laziness or indifference.

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire

I'm quite lazy about languages but when I've been traveling somewhere I do make an effort to at least make an effort and speak some of the basics, e.g. where is something etc

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh dear... :rolleyes:

ever heard of Gary Lineker? Chris Waddle? Michael Owen? Trevor Francis? Paul Ince? Glen Hoddle? David Beckham? Steve MacManaman? Kevin Keegan? Owen Hargreaves? Mark Hately?

Or perhaps our own Tony Woodcock? David Platt?

:haha:


Suffice to say that I’m talking about the last 20-25 years and was talking about young players trying to make a career for themselves by starting in European leagues, but I forget that you’re such an unbelievable pedant that your first thought would be to jump on this point rather than engage with the topic as a whole.

And so to save you the effort of replying


“Oh typical tantrum response when I call you out for something”

[HCZ_Reborn]

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire

I'm quite lazy about languages but when I've been traveling somewhere I do make an effort to at least make an effort and speak some of the basics, e.g. where is something etc

Where does the inbuilt self-hating middle class snootiness that George Orwell observed in Road to Wigan Pier derive from, do you think?

I think it comes from 18th and 19th century when the hipsters of the time (yes the wallies have always been with us) thought they were cool by declaring their love for French things - literature, cuisine, art and degeneracy. The libertine class who wanted to live like Byron or Shelley but lacked the talent

[Letters]

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire
There is something in that. And the fact that so much pop music, TV films is in English and consumed by a worldwide audience, it makes English easier to learn in a way - or there's more incentive to maybe.
Either way, I'd suggest it's a factor in why fewer English players have gone overseas to ply their trade - obviously there examples, you've listed some, but it has historically been rare.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Really?

I see exactly the opposite - bulldogs and flags everywhere, a stupid denial - or almost as bad, an acceptance - of the economic and social damage done because of a backwards-looking illogical sense of not wanting them foreigners over 'ere and 'taking back control' which is nonsense in a global economy

Well I know that’s what you see, but you see the world through the eyes of someone who embodies the attitude I'm deriding.

The irony of parochialism goes hand in hand with the irony of you accusing other people of a superior attitude :lol:

[Mac76]

Where does the inbuilt self-hating middle class snootiness that George Orwell observed in Road to Wigan Pier derive from, do you think?

I think it comes from 18th and 19th century when the hipsters of the time (yes the wallies have always been with us) thought they were cool by declaring their love for French things - literature, cuisine, art and degeneracy. The libertine class who wanted to live like Byron or Shelley but lacked the talent

The middle classes don't make up most of the population, particularly culturally

even very well off builder company owners etc living in big houses and driving £100,000 cars still regard themselves as working class

that's the really depressing thing, money doesn't lead to enlightenment

It's not snobbery to like foreign culture, not least food where some foreign cultures have historically proved themselves more adept at using a greater variety of different ingredients and flavourings etc to create more interesting dishes

but also other cultural aspects, for example most rock music is essentially actually based on the blues which hails from, errr, abroad

Many great things have been created in this country but there's nothign wrong with acknowledging waht otehr cultures bring to the table

England is not the best country in the world - to say so is nationalistic BS - but it has brought some great things but so have other cultures - other countries/cultures are just different, not better or worse

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway, I should say there’s no genuine enmity from me. But I felt Mac76 deserved a bit of a scathing attitude for trying to be a clever dick. I wouldn’t mind but I’d already referenced Glenn Hoddle’s time in Marseille earlier :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The middle classes don't make up most of the population, particularly culturally

even very well off builder company owners etc living in big houses and driving £100,000 cars still regard themselves as working class

that's the really depressing thing, money doesn't lead to enlightenment

It's not snobbery to like foreign culture, not least food where some foreign cultures have historically proved themselves more adept at using a greater variety of different ingredients and flavourings etc to create more interesting dishes

but also other cultural aspects, for example most rock music is essentially actually based on the blues which hails from, errr, abroad

Many great things have been created in this country but there's nothign wrong with acknowledging waht otehr cultures bring to the table

England is not the best country in the world - to say so is nationalistic BS - but it has brought some great things but so have other cultures - other countries/cultures are just different, not better or worse

No it’s not snobbery to like other cultures, but it is when you have such utter contempt for your own because you think it makes you seem worldly and enlightened. As I say, the irony is it actually shows you how little you understand foreign culture.

Take France for example, this English superiority you speak of is as nothing compared to Gaulism and French pride. You see the tricolour everywhere in France…there isn’t any handwringing about belting out La marseillaise. And whatever contempt you feel that the Brits might have for the French…well they more than reciprocate….and not just to us…they absolutely hate the Germans as well.

Similar attitude in Italy as well. Italian pride is just not something they are bashful about.


Human beings are tribal by nature. As I explained earlier there’s literally no difference between that kind of jingoism and Arsenal fans singing “we are by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen”

It’s just the middle class effete elitists who currently hold a hegemony on the culture (in terms of the academic institutions and things like art and entertainment) don’t like it.


Also I’m glad that you managed to appreciate the point I made the other day which is that the class system in this country is cosplaying and just because someone may identify as working class, it doesn’t make them so. Although I think you’re more referring to the cultural phenomenon of what was known as the Nouveau Riche.

[HCZ_Reborn]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

Whilst I really don’t like this kind of hatred for British Empire stuff where people are taught to be ashamed of our past rather than just accept it for what it was. Man we did a fucking horrible job with India :lol:, we murdered the intellectual and moderate Muslims, we absolutely influenced their caste system and the India-Pakistan divide which we drew up displaced millions and causes trouble to this day. And this is even before you get to the Bengal famine.


Soz

[Letters]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

The thing which keeps the lights on at my organisation is the IELTS test - an English test* which people do in order to study or work in an English speaking country.
They love a bit of IELTS in India (and China). I've heard anecdotally than in places where people advertise for a partner they sometimes put their IELTS score as part of their profile!

*Fun fact, do you know what the difference between a test and an exam is? A test is on a subject - like English, hence IELTS being a test. An exam is based on a syllabus - so you are taught a load of stuff and then are examined on it.

[Letters]

Soz
:lol: Soz is right.
I may have related at the time when I was on a "very important" business trip to Cairo earlier in the year I had time for a quick trip to see the pyramids.
I vaguely remembered something about the Sphinx's beard so I asked our guide about it who cheerily informed me it's in the British Museum :haha:
Yeah, soz, that was kind of our thing!

But it's generations ago so, y'know, nothing to do with me, guv :shrug:
I do find the German sense of national self-flagellation a bit weird about the War a bit strange, but I think a lot of that is borne out of a sense of not wishing to repeat historic mistakes rather than any sense of personal responsibility

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ce8y6zqjgdyo

:popcorn:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ce8y6zqjgdyo

:popcorn:

I want to see the video

Edit update: I’ve not seen the video but I’ve seen the basic transcript, I don’t know if he’s agreed to be filmed but I doubt it. But he’s having a bit of a rant about Klopp, the kind of thing we’ve all said about people we’ve worked with. Clearly unprofessional remarks, but at the same time i feel like it’s an invasion of privacy….the worst thing you can say about Coote is that he should be more guarded about who he opens up to.
But I think if some scumbag journalist has videoed him without his consent, and he loses his career as a result…that’s fucking awful.

Edit Update 2: Coote does know he’s being filmed and in fact realises he shouldn’t have mouthed off and pleads with the guy not to release the video. Ok if he knows he’s being filmed no sympathy.

[Letters]

I haven’t seen the video and honestly don’t care about this.
In other news, Lineker OUT!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdd456rzg75o

[HCZ_Reborn]

I haven’t seen the video and honestly don’t care about this.
In other news, Lineker OUT!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdd456rzg75o

I haven’t watched Match of the Day in about 15 years

[Letters]

I haven’t watched Match of the Day in about 15 years

If we win I tend to record it to watch our highlights - and while I'm there I watch other games if there's anything to chuckle about like a Spurs/Utd/City loss - but I tend to skip all the nonsense in between games

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah I haven’t watched it in donkeys years either. Feels a bit obsolete now with how readily available highlights are.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah I haven’t watched it in donkeys years either. Feels a bit obsolete now with how readily available highlights are.

That’s it exactly.

[Mac76]

Yeah I haven’t watched it in donkeys years either. Feels a bit obsolete now with how readily available highlights are.

I still watch it but generally skip through the 'analysis', just watched both MotD's from the weekend as it happens, it's more enjoyable than seeking out highlights on the phone or computer tbh

[Letters]

I think the MoTD highlights are a bit more extensive than what you get on YouTube so I prefer to watch those, but yeah I generally can't be doing with the analysis.
Sometimes I'll watch the interviews and if there's a sending or penalty which is controversial I'll watch what the pundits have to say about that.
And obviously I FF through Spurs/City/Utd/Chelsea winning <_<
And through games I don't care about, which is most of them.

[Mac76]

I FF through Spuds winning but not bothered about the others except City I might do sometimes, Haaland's ugly mug is too much sometimes

But most of the other teams I watch, partly because it's, well, football and also I play FPL so the highlights are part of the realsearch

I drew the line at W Ham v Neverton tonight though :lol:

[WMUG]

San Marino have been promoted in the Nations League! :lol:

There's also a genuine chance of them making the World Cup playoffs as a result :d

[Letters]

I saw they won an away game, I think for the first time in their history :lol:

[WMUG]

First away win, first time scoring more than once in a game, and a whole bunch of other records.

Now they just need to beat a team that isn't Liechtenstein.

[dazthegooner]

Hasn’t Harry Kane scored most of his non penalty goals against teams like this? :unsure:

[Mac76]

Hasn’t Harry Kane scored most of his non penalty goals against teams like this? :unsure:

Totally, which is why his England goal-scoring record doesn't bear any comparison from otehr players who were around in the days when there weren't so many friendlies or one-sided games

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

You say that, but then Charlton scored 22 of his 49 in friendlies.

And he scored in plenty of games which finished in huge scores; 9-0, two games which finished 10-0 and two games which finished 8-1.

[Letters]

Hasn’t Harry Kane scored most of his non penalty goals against teams like this? :unsure:

I was going to say “I wonder how long it will take for Mac to see this”
:lol:

[Letters]

While we are here, people bang on about Pele winning 3 World Cups.
Reading his autobiography and he was out injured for most of ‘62.
What a fraud!

[HCZ_Reborn]

While we are here, people bang on about Pele winning 3 World Cups.
Reading his autobiography and he was out injured for most of ‘62.
What a fraud!

1962 was all about Garrincha

1970 it was just the whole team. That was the perfect unit from top to bottom

[Letters]

Apparently Brazil never lost a game which Garrincha and Pele played in together

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apparently Brazil never lost a game which Garrincha and Pele played in together

I should think not as well

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cnvj0688rrlo

:lol:

Bloody hell, I had marks on my back (I’m troubled with eczema) and I remarked that I looked like I’d been beaten like a runaway slave. This is mild in comparison

Could be that Pep is feeling the pressure and its affecting his skin, but you never think of olive skinned iberians having skin issues

[Mac76]

Van Nistelhorse going to Leicester apparently

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well as long as he doesn’t mind getting fired within four months for not getting the results, despite not having the players to get the results

[Mac76]

I don't rate Steve Clarke tbh, he's a miserable sod who i can't imagine inspires anyone

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't rate Steve Clarke tbh, he's a miserable sod who i can't imagine inspires anyone

Don’t really have a strong opinion on him, other than to say did a reasonably good job at West Brom and doing ok with Scotland (beating Spain was a good result for them)

[Niall_Quinn]

Has anyone on here even mentioned that druggie ref who hates krauts? Seems to me this should be a big story for a footie forum, did I miss it? It sort of would add weight to the obvious.

[Niall_Quinn]

Apparently Brazil never lost a game which Garrincha and Pele played in together

And England never lost a when I played, what's your point? Statistics are devious weapons in the hands of the uninitiated.

[Niall_Quinn]

First away win, first time scoring more than once in a game, and a whole bunch of other records.

Now they just need to beat a team that isn't Liechtenstein.

Wenger isn't managing anymore, so no hope there.

[Niall_Quinn]

Such a silly thread. But I can see the appeal for people with idle minds.

[Letters]

And England never lost a when I played, what's your point? Statistics are devious weapons in the hands of the uninitiated.

You played for England 0 times, Pele and Garrincha played 40 games together and they won 36 and drew 4. I’m not making any deep point, it was just a little fact I read in Pele’s autobiography.
At international level it’s a pretty impressive record.

[Letters]

Such a silly thread. But I can see the appeal for people with idle minds.
Your mind certainly isn’t idle, I’ll give you that :lol:

[Letters]

Has anyone on here even mentioned that druggie ref who hates krauts? Seems to me this should be a big story for a footie forum, did I miss it? It sort of would add weight to the obvious.

I posted about it.
On this thread
:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

I posted about it.
On this thread
:lol:

Well done you. What do you think? Refs might be human too, and subject to the same crap we all deal with? Yeah, it's rigged for sure.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I see that there is another manafactured controversy, over Sam Morsi not wearing the rainbow armband for religious reasons. Now as far as I’m concerned, I largely hold religion (especially Islam) in contempt. But what I hold just as much in contempt is the concept that tolerance, acceptance in a society as a whole requires compulsory exercises of validation.

LGBT is a completely corporate thing, and apart from anything else I don’t think LGB and T naturally go together, as one is about sexual preference the other is about personal identity and the assumption of them being natural allies, especially when the trans lobby has over reached massively to the point where it’s ok with men in wigs bullying and harassing same sex attracted women for not wanting to suck their girl dick is rather ridiculous anyway.


But the thing is, religious people nor religious institutions in my view have to be ok with gay or trans people…I mean who cares. The idea that gay or trans people are so insecure that they need validation from everyone is kind of insulting.

And as long as they don’t insist that the rest of us shouldn’t tolerate it….to repeat who cares??

[Mac76]

I see that there is another manafactured controversy, over Sam Morsi not wearing the rainbow armband for religious reasons. Now as far as I’m concerned, I largely hold religion (especially Islam) in contempt. But what I hold just as much in contempt is the concept that tolerance, acceptance in a society as a whole requires compulsory exercises of validation.

LGBT is a completely corporate thing, and apart from anything else I don’t think LGB and T naturally go together, as one is about sexual preference the other is about personal identity and the assumption of them being natural allies, especially when the trans lobby has over reached massively to the point where it’s ok with men in wigs bullying and harassing same sex attracted women for not wanting to suck their girl dick is rather ridiculous anyway.


But the thing is, religious people nor religious institutions in my view have to be ok with gay or trans people…I mean who cares. The idea that gay or trans people are so insecure that they need validation from everyone is kind of insulting.

And as long as they don’t insist that the rest of us shouldn’t tolerate it….to repeat who cares??

while I would express it differently I'm not a million miles way from what you say here

but I'm not sure this bit makes sense or who 'they' are?

"And as long as they don’t insist that the rest of us shouldn’t tolerate it"

[HCZ_Reborn]

while I would express it differently I'm not a million miles way from what you say here

but I'm not sure this bit makes sense or who 'they' are?

"And as long as they don’t insist that the rest of us shouldn’t tolerate it"

I’m talking generally about the religious and religious institutions.

I think specifically about my nephew being taught in the most anodyne way possible that there are different kinds of family units other than mum and dad, using a picture book with two male penguins. I consider that completely neutral, it’s not regardless of what religious conservatives say indoctrinating or sexualising kids it’s just saying that there are family units that may not be the same as yours. Now this didn’t happen at my nephews school, but there were protests about this both by Christians and Muslims with loud and obnoxious chanting and placards outside schools….which is unnecessarily disruptive and is an attempt to force their views onto others


Same with Muslim protests over a school teacher showing an image of Mohammed or these kids who had defaced a Quran that belonged to them (and the police got involved) to the extent of a Labour MP suggesting in parliament that there should be a law against desecration to protect religious sensitivity (basically a blasphemy law)


No fuck off, your religious sensibilities don’t mean you get to demand what the rest of us do

[The Wengerbabies]

On the one hand it's a classic case of a certain religion not assimilating. On the other hand the gay armbands shouldn't be worn.

I'm as conflicted as the libtards on this.

[The Wengerbabies]

Meanwhile...

https://i.ibb.co/g68y2Vx/Screenshot-from-2024-12-03-12-29-37.png

[HCZ_Reborn]

Meanwhile...

https://i.ibb.co/g68y2Vx/Screenshot-from-2024-12-03-12-29-37.png

I’m ecumenical in terms of religious freedom and toleration. Be it Christian or Muslim, as long as you don’t proselytise believe what you like (though of course with the latter if those beliefs include murdering your daughter for the sake of honour or setting up grooming gangs that’s another matter, although these things tend to be more cultural than religious)

[Letters]

You think they'd be pleased about a man declaring love for another man :unsure:

(stolen from a friend!)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Assuming Jesus was a real person and that the story of his life isn’t merely apocryphal. There are instances of him being very human in his behaviour, in that he could be a massive cunt. Cursing a fig tree because he wanted figs and there weren’t any growing on the fig tree at the time. What did he think? That the fig tree was just being awkward

Apparently he did the same thing with the table at the last supper, he was having trouble lifting it


Judas turns to him and says

“Jesus….its an inanimate fucking object”


To which Jesus replied

“You’re an inanimate fucking object”


I guess the lesson in that parable, is to be careful how you talk to certain people

[Letters]

I also know the script to "In Bruges" :p

[HCZ_Reborn]

I also know the script to "In Bruges" :p

:lol:

It does take a special film to incorporate a quote from it into a joke or silly remark


The line that really made me snort laugh when I first watched that film is when Colin Farrell is talking to those American tourists about getting to the top of the Tower and says “yous are a bunch of fucking elephants”

[HCZ_Reborn]

Unsurprisingly there seems to be a very binary take on the whole rainbow flag thing

This is where I consider what’s reductively called woke thinking to be poisonous, the need to grab at binaries. You’re either an explicit ally or you hate gay or trans people.

Plus even if certain people do hate gay or trans people so what?. We don’t see the instances of gay bashing that we did in western countries. And people who are religiously inclined to believe the act of homosexuality is a sin, aren’t going round in small gangs targeting two blokes holding hands. This catastrophic thinking I blame on schools and the safetyism and the inclination to believe that words are violence….is going to do so much harm to people.


I’m sure there are people who hate me for no reason (and it’s so stupid and unfair as there are so many legitimate reasons to hate me :haha:) but I couldn’t give a fuck. I wouldn’t mind but when it comes to countries where LGBT are actively discriminated against, no footballing organisation would dare flash a rainbow armband anyway.

[Letters]

Overall I’m not sure football should be getting involved in this sort of thing, but I don’t think I can be bothered getting that excised about it

[The Wengerbabies]

It's all so gay.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Overall I’m not sure football should be getting involved in this sort of thing, but I don’t think I can be bothered getting that excised about it

I think where I get annoyed is the curtailing of freedom of expression, or more precisely freedom of non expression

I don’t think there should be any requirement for anyone to have to affirm anything they don’t want to

Would I wear the rainbow armband if I was a footballer, whilst I don’t care for the whole politisation of LGBT I think on balance Id get paid too much money to give a fuck one way or the other. But unless Morsy or someone else is going round in public saying “death to faggots”. I honestly don’t get why there has to be such furore

[The Wengerbabies]

https://i.ibb.co/HqK2xSb/Screenshot-from-2024-12-05-22-47-43.png

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c983y2ylev5o

Coote :pal:

[Mac76]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c983y2ylev5o

Coote :pal:

they just need to sack the rest of those f****rs now

[Niall_Quinn]

https://i.ibb.co/HqK2xSb/Screenshot-from-2024-12-05-22-47-43.png

This is fucking crazy. These money grabbing, corrupt cunts are going to put a final nail in this game that can't be pulled.

[Niall_Quinn]

Assuming Jesus was a real person and that the story of his life isn’t merely apocryphal. There are instances of him being very human in his behaviour, in that he could be a massive cunt. Cursing a fig tree because he wanted figs and there weren’t any growing on the fig tree at the time. What did he think? That the fig tree was just being awkward

Apparently he did the same thing with the table at the last supper, he was having trouble lifting it


Judas turns to him and says

“Jesus….its an inanimate fucking object”


To which Jesus replied

“You’re an inanimate fucking object”


I guess the lesson in that parable, is to be careful how you talk to certain people

Bible was written by men who had an agenda. Nothing to do with God or Jesus. They didn't write dick, apart from that one time where God sent down some pretty fucking useful lessons to this Jew bod, and we've all spent our lives dutifully ignoring those fucking obvious lessons. Or at least licking the balls of those who proudly flaunt common decency, or voting, however you want to call it. Most of you cunts are proud to support depravity and banal evil. But few have the sack size to mock God and Jesus through the writings of men probably as flawed, though probably not as conceited, as yourself. Such a clever fool you are.

[Marc Overmars]

2034 World Cup is confirmed as Saudi Arabia. :rolleyes:

Presumably means another winter World Cup as I imagine the summer temperatures aren’t any different to Qatar.

2030 also confirmed to be Spain/Portugal/Morocco with the opening 3 games in South America to commemorate the centenary of the tournament.

[HCZ_Reborn]

2034 World Cup is confirmed as Saudi Arabia. :rolleyes:

Presumably means another winter World Cup as I imagine the summer temperatures aren’t any different to Qatar.

2030 also confirmed to be Spain/Portugal/Morocco with the opening 3 games in South America to commemorate the centenary of the tournament.

Yep complete load of sports washing shite

Although I actually have less issue with Saudi having the tournament than Qatar because the footballing infrastructure already exists, and because Saudi has actually appeared several times in the tournament via qualification.


But yes you’re right, geographically speaking Qatar looks like a growth on Saudi Arabia’s back so the weather conditions will be equally inhospitable for mass tourism during the summer months. Problem this time is that because of an expanded tournament that the split in the season will be even larger, even if they compress the fixtures like they did with the Qatar World Cup.

[Niall_Quinn]

Saudi Arabia - LAUGH MY FUCKING ARSE OFF!

Could they even make it more blatant? That well know powerhouse of football, finally bringing the competition home. LOL.

Maybe FIFA will collapse before then? It's a hope.

[Niall_Quinn]

2034 World Cup is confirmed as Saudi Arabia. :rolleyes:

Presumably means another winter World Cup as I imagine the summer temperatures aren’t any different to Qatar.

2030 also confirmed to be Spain/Portugal/Morocco with the opening 3 games in South America to commemorate the centenary of the tournament.

Will Morocco offer free kidnapping as part of the package trips? And hopefully all you can eat food poisoning is included?

The World Cup - not shithold unturned provided they have the cash that was stolen from the people.

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/c2kxvew7xyzo

"England, under new head coach Thomas Tuchel, will face Serbia, Albania, Latvia and Andorra."

:lol:

Might start booking my flights for the finals now tbh

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Sir Gareth Southgate

:lol:

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sir Gareth Southgate

:lol:

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk


But, but….we don’t reward failure in this country :lol:

[IBK]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/dec/17/chelsea-mykhailo-mudryk-fails-drugs-test-provisionally-suspended

Mudryk fails drugs test...

[Letters]

But, but….we don’t reward failure in this country :lol:

Sir Bobby Robson didn't exactly sweep all before him.
Southgate did better than any other England Manager in my lifetime. They're the only finals in my lifetime (shut up, lioness fans, you know what I mean).
No issue with him getting it - I mean, in comparison with other people who have.

[IBK]

Sir Bobby Robson didn't exactly sweep all before him.
Southgate did better than any other England Manager in my lifetime. They're the only finals in my lifetime (shut up, lioness fans, you know what I mean).
No issue with him getting it - I mean, in comparison with other people who have.

I agree. By the standards of other knighthoods he deserves his.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sir Bobby Robson didn't exactly sweep all before him.
Southgate did better than any other England Manager in my lifetime. They're the only finals in my lifetime (shut up, lioness fans, you know what I mean).
No issue with him getting it - I mean, in comparison with other people who have.

Robson did at least win things

FA cup with Ipswich in 1978, UEFA cup in 1981

League titles with Porto and PSV

Cup winners cup with Barcelona

[Letters]

Robson did at least win things

FA cup with Ipswich in 1978, UEFA cup in 1981

League titles with Porto and PSV

Cup winners cup with Barcelona

Fine. That's not why he was knighted though.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fine. That's not why he was knighted though.

He was knighted for services to football, if it was simply for getting to a semi with England. Terry Venables would have got a knighthood

[Letters]

He was knighted for services to football, if it was simply for getting to a semi with England. Terry Venables would have got a knighthood

I think getting England to two finals, including the first one in our history on foreign soil, is worthy of recognition.
Whether it deserves a knighthood...well, that whole system is so silly anyway then it's impossible to be objective about it, but compared to other people who have got it I think it's fairly reasonable.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Maybe it's one thing of should he be knighted at all (and yes the whole "honours" conversation anyway, for which lets be honest who fucking cares) but also should he be getting it now?
If it's essentially a lifetime achievement award, which you can kinda argue it is, he's still theoretically midway through his career. Like when people release their autobiography aged 30.

Maybe that's him done. Can't have a knight of the realm battling relegation with Wolves. Or eating Kangaroo anus in the jungle. He'll probably have an FA job lined up, then be Lord Southgate of Wembley or some shit in 10 years time.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Me personally, I’d have knighted him for service to his country by resigning

Because If he hadn’t, the FA would have kept him in post…squandering our potential

Much like, I fear….the squandered potential if Arteta isn’t sent packing in the summer

[McNamara That Ghost...]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2024/dec/17/chelsea-mykhailo-mudryk-fails-drugs-test-provisionally-suspended

Mudryk fails drugs test...

He should ask for a refund.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Southgate knighted. :haha:

Our country man.

Utterly ridiculous.

[Niall_Quinn]

Southgate knighted. :haha:

Our country man.

Utterly ridiculous.

Jesus - really? That's kind of insulting.

I once laid a log that was a good 12 inches long. Couldn't believe it at the time. Never knew I could get knighted for it.

[Letters]

Southgate knighted. :haha:

Our country man.

Utterly ridiculous.
I mean, of course that whole system is ridiculous but this is no more or less ridiculous than a lot of other honours which have been dished out.
Some of my colleagues have honours simply for working in the civil service for quite a while at a certain level of superiority :shrug:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Worked out that United have spent 1.2 billion pound net on players since Ferguson left, and that’s not taking into consideration signing on fees, the amount they will have spent on cancelling contracts and of course wages

Jesus what a fucking mess

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I mean, of course that whole system is ridiculous but this is no more or less ridiculous than a lot of other honours which have been dished out.
Some of my colleagues have honours simply for working in the civil service for quite a while at a certain level of superiority :shrug:

I don't really care about the other sectors but yes, in a sporting capacity, this is ridiculous.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The honours system has always been an old boys network, a list approved by Whitehall and sent to the palace for the stamp of approval

I don’t especially like Sadiq Kahn (although his role in London becoming a hell hole, as well as the statement that London is a hell hole is greatly overstated) but when you think of some of the other people given knighthoods and peerages, it seems odd at the very least to scream blue murder about it.

[Letters]

I don't really care about the other sectors but yes, in a sporting capacity, this is ridiculous.
Why?

[Mac76]

Apparently Lopetegui's probably out and West Ham are after Potter, could be a good fit maybe, it's more his size of club I think

[HCZ_Reborn]

Apparently Lopetegui's probably out and West Ham are after Potter, could be a good fit maybe, it's more his size of club I think

Potter did himself no favours by going to Chelsea, absolutely toxic club. But he’s a decent coach and I agree could be a good fit for West Ham

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ce9nzxe4m18o

Should be enough women to upset certain people

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ce9nzxe4m18o

Should be enough women to upset certain people

Haven’t watched Match of the Day for about 15 years, not about to start again now

Had a bit of a thing for Gabby Logan back when she was a back up anchor for Des Lynam for ITV’s The Premiership (was never going to work having a football highlights show with myriad advert breaks) but now? Well the years are not kind to any of us. I mean she looks good for her age, but she doesn’t have the same posh totty appeal that she did, I don’t even know why posh as she’s Terry Yorath’s daughter but I guess with his wages he was able to send her to private school

[HCZ_Reborn]

But also
https://youtu.be/Tv0ueEI4OBQ?si=3PAzb20kFQJGiU1K

[Letters]

Denis Law :rose:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ckgvny01x9go

[HCZ_Reborn]

Denis Law :rose:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ckgvny01x9go

It didn’t occur to me that he was that old, but then I have to take in that Seaman, Dixon, Winterburn, Bould and Wright are all over sixty now

[Marc Overmars]

Haaland has signed a 9 and a half year contract. :blink:

[dazthegooner]

Works out at around 115 months one for each charge that Oil City face :yikes:

[Niall_Quinn]

Haaland has signed a 9 and a half year contract. :blink:

They must have decided to sell him at the end of the season.

[Mac76]

Haaland has signed a 9 and a half year contract. :blink:

That's truly insane

[Letters]

Norway :bow:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jan/22/norway-on-verge-of-abolishing-var-from-domestic-leagues-after-club-vote

[Mac76]

Norway :bow:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2025/jan/22/norway-on-verge-of-abolishing-var-from-domestic-leagues-after-club-vote

you've got to say things would be no worse without it

[Letters]

you've got to say things would be no worse without it

I've always felt the principle of VAR is sound, but the implementation of it has been awful and made things worse.

[dazthegooner]

Think VAR should be managed by ex players from all over the country not just northerners who seem to have the monopoly on everything (well thats my view anyway)

[Letters]

Think VAR should be managed by ex players from all over the country not just northerners who seem to have the monopoly on everything (well thats my view anyway)

:good:

I just think they need to add a bit of common sense. The handball rule is nonsensical - I think that's been a bit better this season but defenders having to face up with their arms behind their backs is just ridiculous. And the offside thing - holy shit will you stop all this drawing lines and zooming in to see if a single pixel is offside. If it's not clear and obvious then let it go.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13297951/david-coote-former-premier-league-referee-apologises-for-actions-which-led-to-sacking-by-pgmol-and-comes-out-as-gay

If it didn’t work for Kevin Spacey, what makes you think it’ll work for you

[WMUG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aARyG0uBcNY

:d

(Make sure you turn the playback speed up, btw)

[Mac76]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aARyG0uBcNY

:d

(Make sure you turn the playback speed up, btw)

I can answer that question: they're a mid-to-lower table club finding their natural place - wash away the media hype and that club is nothing but a bunch of losers in a huge toilet

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aARyG0uBcNY

:d

(Make sure you turn the playback speed up, btw)

I like these little exposes that this channel does

When you look at the players that have been signed since Kane left - Johnson, Odobert, Solanke etc. It all seems to be about not significantly adding to their wage bill. I know some individuals here were saying we should have signed Solanke :lol: but in reality he’s not good enough for Spurs let alone us, I think he got made to look better than he was at Bournemouth and a club like that is more his level. Same really for Brennan Johnson


For a club that has quite a big fanbase and has become quite financially successful the calibre of players they’ve been bringing in is simply not great. Richarlison has been a flop but actually you can at least see why they went for him….


I don’t know if it’s Postecoglou not wanting big egos to question his intense style of training and football or whether it’s the club being cheap (you suspect a bit of both) but it’s all combined for the perfect shit storm

I think to be honest we can consider ourselves quite lucky that a club as well managed as Spurs have been financially have never seen interested in translating that to success on the pitch past a certain point….as frankly seven or eight years ago had they shown the ambition they could have done, they could have left us in the dust.

[Letters]

Rashford joins Villa on loan

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cjdejvxvk29o

[The Wengerbabies]

Alan Brazil :bow:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/tottenhamtierc/status/1889404997093257384?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw


https://youtu.be/u8klhSpAnHM?si=I7e8-An8z2kVW0Tl

[Letters]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13260938/fa-wants-england-men-s-coaching-staff-to-be-30-per-cent-black-asian-mixed-or-other-ethnic-background-by-2028

:rolleyes:

[dazthegooner]

And I want to win the lottery by tomorrow :sulk:

[Niall_Quinn]

The gypos have won their court case related to PL sponsorship restrictions. The court declared these rules null and void.

This is not the 115 violations thingy, it's a different case.

[dazthegooner]

The British justice system the best money can buy.

[Letters]

Kim Jong Un :bow:

https://metro.co.uk/2025/02/15/reason-kim-jong-un-banned-coverage-spurs-two-premier-league-clubs-22564263/amp/

[HCZ_Reborn]

Kim Jong Un :bow:

https://metro.co.uk/2025/02/15/reason-kim-jong-un-banned-coverage-spurs-two-premier-league-clubs-22564263/amp/

Actually would make far more sense for him to allow Spurs games to be shown. To show to the people that nothing good happens to those South of the 38th parallel

[IBK]

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13260938/fa-wants-england-men-s-coaching-staff-to-be-30-per-cent-black-asian-mixed-or-other-ethnic-background-by-2028

:rolleyes:

I'm generally against minority quotas (I know that this isn't a fixed target), as this can make discrimination worse by suggesting that minority candidates only get positions because of this. But in the case of UK football, it simply beggars belief that ethnic representation on the management/refereeing side is so low given the percentage of players from Black, Asian, mixed or other ethnic backgrounds. So I like this initiative.

[Mac76]

I'm generally against minority quotas (I know that this isn't a fixed target), as this can make discrimination worse by suggesting that minority candidates only get positions because of this. But in the case of UK football, it simply beggars belief that ethnic representation on the management/refereeing side is so low given the percentage of players from Black, Asian, mixed or other ethnic backgrounds. So I like this initiative.

While I know it will shatter everyone's tired cliches about me... I'm not at all sure - people who are promoted for reasons other than their ability can be counter-productive to what you're trying to do, maybe it would be better for the FA to fund places on couching courses to minority players or something like that

[Letters]

There's no such thing as positive discrimination. It's an oxymoron.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Quotas in any sense are counter-productive and more likely to be a solution in search of a problem

If there are actual barriers preventing minorities from getting into coaching that’s one thing but I don’t believe that’s the case.

What I notice is that black, white, brown whatever there is a clear paucity of English coaches at the top level. And this is why I find all this bemoaning when we pick a foreign coach for the national team bemusing. Well ideally the chap would be English, but it would be nice if we had some choices.


Whilst ultimately I believe you’re never going to have the same amount of women as men in STEM fields it certainly doesn’t hurt to be proactive in encouraging women who might want to enter such professions. I think equally we could be more proactive with encouraging youngsters to take an interest in leadership/coaching.


Quotas? I think ultimately the perception of a closed shop isn’t remedied by an actual closed shop

[Letters]

What I notice is that black, white, brown whatever there is a clear paucity of English coaches at the top level.
Yeah! Where's the quota for English coaches?


Or women :ninja:

[Mac76]

Yeah! Where's the quota for English coaches?



They're all thick-as-shit dinosaurs


Or women :ninja:


Funnily enough I was watching an interview with Renee Segers this morning (whose Arsenal side beat Spuds 5-0 yesterday in case no-one noticed) and I reckon if she could get past the prejudice she'd no doubt encounter from pretty much everyone, she'd probably do quite well

[HCZ_Reborn]

They're all thick-as-shit dinosaurs

Maybe it’s your reflexive hatred for everything English that results in these “tired cliches” as you call them. Succinct observations as I call them.

[Mac76]

Maybe it’s your reflexive hatred for everything English that results in these “tired cliches” as you call them. Succinct observations as I call them.

OK so what's your reason why, despite the number of English players in the league, hardly anyone is a successful manager and those who try, e.g. Lampard, Neville and Gerrard, are miserable failures?

OK, I think Graham Potter (Chelsea was clearly the wrong gig) is decent but I'm struggling after that

[HCZ_Reborn]

OK so what's your reason why, despite the number of English players in the league, hardly anyone is a successful manager and those who try, e.g. Lampard, Neville and Gerrard, are miserable failures?

OK, I think Graham Potter (Chelsea was clearly the wrong gig) is decent but I'm struggling after that

Because I don’t think that many are going into management after finishing their playing careers. There isn’t the financial incentive because in their playing careers they’ve made more money than they’d ever need to. Thus why I state that actually the best thing to do is encourage a passion for coaching at a young age, rather than make a generalised judgement about people based on nationality.

[Mac76]

Because I don’t think that many are going into management after finishing their playing careers. There isn’t the financial incentive because in their playing careers they’ve made more money than they’d ever need to. Thus why I state that actually the best thing to do is encourage a passion for coaching at a young age, rather than make a generalised judgement about people based on nationality.

well that's a typical diversion away from the real discussion here, which is where are all the great English managers, ex-players or not?

Why aren't all the clubs hiring them?

give me the reason if it isn't that none of them are up to it...

... and if they're not up to it, it must be because their training methods, tactical thinking and man-management isn't up to scratch for a top side

You only have to look at that idiot who forced Ben White to stop playing for England to see what kind of backward moron this country produces

[HCZ_Reborn]

well that's a typical diversion away from the real discussion here, which is where are all the great English managers, ex-players or not?

Why aren't all the clubs hiring them?

give me the reason if it isn't that none of them are up to it...

... and if they're not up to it, it must be because their training methods, tactical thinking and man-management isn't up to scratch for a top side

You only have to look at that idiot who forced Ben White to stop playing for England to see what kind of backward moron this country produces

Nitwit, you made your specious anti-English comments in response to a comment Letters made in response to my post. Which was about not enough English coaches in the game to begin with.

Which is precisely the reason why people like Southgate end up becoming over promoted and Gerrard and Lampard fast tracked into coaching roles when it’s clear that they don’t have it in them

[Mac76]

Nitwit, you made your specious anti-English comments in response to a comment Letters made in response to my post. Which was about not enough English coaches in the game to begin with.

Which is precisely the reason why people like Southgate end up becoming over promoted and Gerrard and Lampard fast tracked into coaching roles when it’s clear that they don’t have it in them

more diversion? :rolleyes:

why aren't there more English coaches in the game?

explain

and it's not anti-English it's simply giving an explanation as to why English coaches don't make it - so I'm talking about English people in football coaching not in the round

I'm still waiting for your alternative theory

[Letters]

I'm still waiting for your alternative theory
Did you see his first reply? :unsure:
You can disagree with his thesis, but he did give an answer.
Isn't one factor that a lot of the players aren't English, that's going to translate in to who goes through to become a coach or manager.

[HCZ_Reborn]

more diversion? :rolleyes:

why aren't there more English coaches in the game?

explain

and it's not anti-English it's simply giving an explanation as to why English coaches don't make it - so I'm talking about English people in football coaching not in the round

I'm still waiting for your alternative theory

To propose an alternative theory, there has to be a theory which it’s an alternative to. All you’ve given is a missive saying that somehow being English makes you tactically backward

I’ve offered the theory that because of the money in the game for players that there’s less incentive to get into coaching at the end of their careers and it’s often easier as a result doing punditry work (certainly no shortage of ex player pundits)

And that if we encouraged players earlier in their careers to get interested in coaching we’d have a greater pool to choose from, or at the very least be back to where we were 20-30 years ago where there were more English coaches in the top flight.

[Mac76]

To propose an alternative theory, there has to be a theory which it’s an alternative to. All you’ve given is a missive saying that somehow being English makes you tactically backward

I’ve offered the theory that because of the money in the game for players that there’s less incentive to get into coaching at the end of their careers and it’s often easier as a result doing punditry work (certainly no shortage of ex player pundits)



so why are there plenty of managers from overseas, I realise the PL might be one of the better-paid leaguess but given there's loads of Spanish, Itailan and German coachces, all of whom must have earnt a bob or two in their careers, your reply doesn't work?

[HCZ_Reborn]

Did you see his first reply? :unsure:
You can disagree with his thesis, but he did give an answer.
Isn't one factor that a lot of the players aren't English, that's going to translate in to who goes through to become a coach or manager.

Well to paraphrase the whole thing started because he doesn’t like being thought of as a soy boy/woketard whatever

I’ve never really chided him for being woke, it’s more the unthinking lefty tribalism (you can be left wing without being woke)

It’s really an ongoing issue where he has it in his head that England is this parochial yet triumphalist backwater, and I point out that patriotism is a feature of most countries and that the reason the left have never got a stronger foothold in Britain (as opposed to the more social democratic version we’ve had) is because of the middle class intellectual vanguard that regarded itself as the liberator of the working classes whilst never really liking or understanding them that much

In fact there are days where it would be easier just to produce an image of a paperback copy of Orwell’s Road to Wigan Pier when he opens his mouth on the matter

[Mac76]

Well to paraphrase the whole thing started because he doesn’t like being thought of as a soy boy/woketard whatever

I’ve never really chided him for being woke, it’s more the unthinking lefty tribalism (you can be left wing without being woke)

It’s really an ongoing issue where he has it in his head that England is this parochial yet triumphalist backwater, and I point out that patriotism is a feature of most countries and that the reason the left have never got a stronger foothold in Britain (as opposed to the more social democratic version we’ve had) is because of the middle class intellectual vanguard that regarded itself as the liberator of the working classes whilst never really liking or understanding them that much

In fact there are days where it would be easier just to produce an image of a paperback copy of Orwell’s Road to Wigan Pier when he opens his mouth on the matter

all of which is absolute tosh, I made a remark about English football managers not the general population (of which I'm part btw, so where does that leave you?), there's you projecting your own narrow-minded caricatures onto people because you just don't the intellectual range to understand that each person is different, not a cypher

[HCZ_Reborn]

so why are there plenty of managers from overseas, I realise the PL might be one of the better-paid leaguess but given there's loads of Spanish, Itailan and German coachces, all of whom must have earnt a bob or two in their careers, your reply doesn't work?

Again I’m only offering an explanation for why English players aren’t becoming coaches at the end of their careers.

I can’t speak as to why players from other countries are still wanting to get into coaching. I’d also add because of the money involved in the premier league we want the finished product who has already made their bones in a foreign league, Arteta in terms of a club like us being his first gig is almost unheard of.

But yeah of course your explanation that England is culturally or educationally backward makes far more sense. And if you’re an example of it….maybe you’re not 100% wrong :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

all of which is absolute tosh, I made a remark about English football managers not the general population (of which I'm part btw, so where does that leave you?), there's you projecting your own narrow-minded caricatures onto people because you just don't the intellectual range to understand that each person is different, not a cypher

I don’t think everyone is a cipher. But you are. Your anti-English screed on here is a constant.


The argument started because the point was being made about lack of English coaches at the top level. The reason is negate there aren’t that many English coaches full stop. So when you have plodding dullards like Lampard and Gerrard getting fast tacked it’s because people are desperate to see an English coach succeed


Now doubtless I think there are things that need to change, just as young English players need to be prepared to go abroad to make their bones (and there was a clear interregnum period between Hoddle etc doing it and what we have now which is the odd English player plying their trade abroad before they even make a name for themselves)

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal have been fined £65,000 for failing to control their players after Myles Lewis-Skelly was sent off during their Premier League win at Wolves.

The Football Association (FA) charged Arsenal with failing to ensure their players "did not behave in an improper manner," at Molineux on 25 January.

I trust this will be applied to everyone for the remainder?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I trust this will be applied to everyone for the remainder?

Well will be interesting to see how Liverpool are punished for failing to control their players at end of Merseyside Derby

Barely got a mention in the media, which is not a surprise as there’s been a long established trend of the media being in the tank for Liverpool.

[IBK]

While I know it will shatter everyone's tired cliches about me... I'm not at all sure - people who are promoted for reasons other than their ability can be counter-productive to what you're trying to do, maybe it would be better for the FA to fund places on couching courses to minority players or something like that

But as far as I understand it, this is an initiative rather than a set quota. I have both stated my opposition to quotas and my disbelief that given the preponderance of ethnic minority footballers there are so few in management positions. I am not suggesting that people be promoted for reasons other than ability.

Also, why the debate about the EPL only? The initiative is an FA one, not a Premiership one? Plenty of Engish managers in all 4 top leagues. But Among the 92 clubs in the top four tiers of English football, there are currently just two black managers. Do people really believe that this is becuase minority candidates lack the requisite ability?

[HCZ_Reborn]

In fairness to Mac, I got the impression that he only expressed the belief that a system that would involve quotas might invariably end up with accusations of tokenism rather than making it on merit.

Quotas can often be a way of short cutting the process.

There is of course no reason to believe that someone of a certain ethnic minority lacks coaching ability anymore than someone who is white. I would be interested to know why a lot of prominent black English players for example who are vastly over represented relative to the Afro-Carribean population, do not seek to become coaches. Do they assume there will be resistance from authorities not even explicitly but a kind of what’s now called unconscious bias.

[IBK]

In fairness to Mac, I got the impression that he only expressed the belief that a system that would involve quotas might invariably end up with accusations of tokenism rather than making it on merit.

Quotas can often be a way of short cutting the process.

There is of course no reason to believe that someone of a certain ethnic minority lacks coaching ability anymore than someone who is white. I would be interested to know why a lot of prominent black English players for example who are vastly over represented relative to the Afro-Carribean population, do not seek to become coaches. Do they assume there will be resistance from authorities not even explicitly but a kind of what’s now called unconscious bias.

In that case - fair enough to Mac. And as an ethnic minority myself I hate that fixed quota systems lead to an assumption (sometimes justified) that the beneficiary is not there on merit.

I think that your theory re black coaches may indeed have a lot of truth in it. There can be a lot of self-regulation in these matters - an assumption that 'someone like me' does not become a football coach. A good example of an analogous situation within football is the clubs that have traditionally been regarded as welcoming for black fans...don't think many ethnic minority fans were flocking to Millwall back in the day.

I guess another might be the preponderance of white men from the North west in refereeing?

[HCZ_Reborn]

That’s quite a recent thing (not the white men, but white men from the north west)

20 or so years ago, you had the likes of Poll, Bennett, Barber, Dirkin, Elleray who were all southerners so it felt like there wasn’t an over representation of one particular geographic area

Not quite sure why there is this surfeit of people from the north west now.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

That’s quite a recent thing (not the white men, but white men from the north west)

20 or so years ago, you had the likes of Poll, Bennett, Barber, Dirkin, Elleray who were all southerners so it felt like there wasn’t an over representation of one particular geographic area

Not quite sure why there is this surfeit of people from the north west now.

From what I've heard, refereeing now at the lower leagues (as in the summit of Sunday League to Non-League) is that much easier in the North West (read: Greater Manchester) due to travel and the number of games, referees have had something of an advantage there compared to London and the South East where one may need to travel 2 hours to get to a game. Some to make that jump from amateur to professional is that bit easier.

Equally, I guess, is it's different being a new referee and abused for £50 a Sunday in Oldham as it is in... Battersea. (Btw what a bloody lovely place that is now.) Plus is being a "top ref" is just more of a thing now, compared to back in the day you had Clive Thomas and then Geoff from his farm in East Anglia...

[Letters]

And as an ethnic minority myself
You’re white in Tower Hamlets? :unsure:
#wengerbabies

[Mac76]

I trust this will be applied to everyone for the remainder?

You're new to how the FA 'works' aren't you?

[Mac76]

I don’t think everyone is a cipher. But you are. Your anti-English screed on here is a constant.



Give me some examples - if it's 'constant' presumably you can find lots of examples from yesterday (leaving aside the football managers discussion ofc which isn't anti-English anyway)

or the day before

or the day before that...


The argument started because the point was being made about lack of English coaches at the top level. The reason is negate there aren’t that many English coaches full stop. So when you have plodding dullards like Lampard and Gerrard getting fast tacked it’s because people are desperate to see an English coach succeed



OK I'm going to try really hard here to get down to your level and communicate in nice easy steps for you:

Q: so WHY are they desperate to see an English coach succeed?

A: because there aren't any succeeding at the top level

Q: so why aren't there any?

A: because they're not good enough

Q: so why aren't they good enough?

A: because they lack the modern way of thinking or the depth of understanding, sophisticated tactical thinking or man-management skills to do so - that's my theroy

Q: so why English people in particular?

A: well maybe that's the point where you have to concede - as you actually do in your post where you talk about English players not going abroad - that there is perhaps something insular and unwilling to take on new cultures or ideas prevalent among English football people - whether you think that speaks to the wider English people is up to you, I made no indication that it was my view

Ofc I was being mildly flippant by saying there were all thick dinosaurs and it was your choice to suddenly get all serious and po-faced about it and scientifically examine what was clealry an off-the-cuff jokey post (to anyone with any kind of sense of humour that is) - no doubt you thought you could get a cheap win

My point still stands - if there isn't an inherent failure in the English football system and culture to produce people of the calibre we need, what is it if it isn't what i've described above?

I've given my theory - now give us yours

[HCZ_Reborn]

I mean you need only go to any part of your previous posts where Brexit or even the England national football team is being discussed when you constantly go on about this belief in this mythical English exceptionalism, that only exists in the minds of people who live in the kind of bubble that you do.

And really, all these attempts to traduce my intelligence would be far more scathing if they weren’t so clearly a projection of your resentment that I constantly berate your lack of intelligence. It’s not an insult, I just don’t think you’re very smart or indeed anywhere near as smart as you believe yourself to be. Certainly when discussing anything political what comes across time and time again is the superficiality of your beliefs.


However it’s very kind of you to lay out your thought process here, and prove to me that again I’m right and that you are instinctively anti English because your conclusion is that there is something in the culture that makes us less sophisticated than our European counterparts. And again I have to keep informing you that this is only a belief you might hold if you understood nothing about the culture outside of Britain so ironically your snobbishness actually is also quite parochial

Maybe suppose we abandon that and actually focus on where we agree that we don’t have systems that encourage coaching. Plus even IBK spoke about how when we are talking about ethnic minorities that impression may be given that “coaching is not for the likes of me”. Maybe similarly white English players feel that when the cultural hegemony is of people like you who instinctively sneer at English people for being dullards and that people on the continent are far more sophisticated that they won’t bother in the first place.

And I think that kind of inverted snobbery towards home grown coaches probably does exist to a degree at board level, as well as being risk adverse and preferring to give the job to someone who has already managed abroad.

Where as your theory falls down where it hinges somehow on the belief that England has regressed culturally in the past thirty years (you might find however that if you did believe that you’d find some unlikely allies on here :lol:), where not only were there more coaches at the top level of English football there were more English coaches full stop.

[HCZ_Reborn]

And the TLDR version of the above post

You: I’m sick of you making assumptions about me and inferring I’m stupid

Me: They aren’t assumptions, they are observations based on things you say and you’re even kind enough to prove my point for me. And I will stop thinking you are stupid when you stop saying stupid things.

[Mac76]

However it’s very kind of you to lay out your thought process here, and prove to me that again I’m right and that you are instinctively anti English because your conclusion is that there is something in the culture that makes us less sophisticated than our European counterparts.

you said 'constantly' - where are the 'constant' examples - you know what 'constant' means right?

More importantly, I guess I need to point out that highlighting something's faults isn't to be 'anti' it

I might point out faults with an Arsenal performance but that doesn't mean I'm anti-Arsenal - in fact it's the opposite, I'm pro-Arsenal so I'm concerned if the team/club lets itself down in some way

As it happens I do think there are sections of the English population (not based on class mind you but all kinds of factors), egged on by right-wing populist media and politicians, who take an insular and narrow-minded approach, hence the 'Leave' vote. But that doesn't make me anti-English

On the football thing I'd again point out your previous post where it was you yourself that acknowledged that English footballers and managers are less likely to go abroad - apart from the fact that even that very statement could be portrayed as 'anti-English', you've so far failed to explain why that is but I'm keen to know - what's your theory? Do tell

As for snobbery there's something called 'inverted snobbery' which takes against any intellectual or sophisticated argument simply because it can't be said in a few words of less than three syllables - again the anti-experts in the right-wing media and Reform etc love it because they can use it to trash anything which proves they're talking bullshit

[HCZ_Reborn]

But it’s a critique based on perception and I constantly and patiently explain to you why you might have that perception. And you get all resentful when I do

The left and right are two sides of the same coin in my view. They seem to hate England as much as the “Liberals” do and I put that term in inverted commas as there’s often very little liberal about them.


The right hates England because it’s been taken over by Islamists and or DEI LBTQ+ as if the two things share a common frontier


The liberal/left/progressives hate England because it’s rainy fascist island full of little englander gammons


Brexit is also nothing to do with English exceptionalism (or Welsh exceptionalism as the majority of the Welsh voted to leave as well). It’s our version of a trend that’s happening all across the occident where people see the economic gap grow bigger and bigger. To a degree whilst supranational institutions like the EU aren’t the cause, they are representative of the expansion of global capitalism where old areas of industry have been hollowed out. This is why ostensibly working class areas that were heavily industrial at one point tend to be your epicentre for voting for the populist right.


Are the right their saviours? No these are the people who spent the most time completely gutting these areas and de-regulating the economy and watering down collective bargaining power

But the centre left parties have not really done enough to address this either, and along with it embraced the rather obnoxious and patronising social justice activism that got everyone’s backs up (the type of thinking that invariably leads to things like quotas).

And people like yourself in your snobbish disdain allowed the right to play divide and rule. Because why would you vote for someone who openly looks down on you, better in some way to vote for someone who at least pretends not to (even if it is superficial and Machiavellian)

[Mac76]

The fact that you say 'people like you' just sums you up, you just can't break out of your stereotype-entrenched way of seeing the world, it's sad really but why don't we get back to the point (nice attempt once again at a diversion btw)

What's your theory for there not being more Enflish top-level managers?

We're still waiting :tumbleweed:

[HCZ_Reborn]

The fact that you say 'people like you' just sums you up, you just can't break out of your stereotype-entrenched way of seeing the world, it's sad really but why don't we get back to the point (nice attempt once again at a diversion btw)

What's your theory for there not being more Enflish top-level managers?

We're still waiting :tumbleweed:

No I say people like you because you fit the criteria. As I said before not everyone fits a stereotype but you do. Even yesterday when trying to prove you didn’t by coming out against quotas you couldn’t help yourself making an anti English dig. We agree that many of the current crop of English coaches are poor, the difference is you think it’s because they are English that they are poor.

Because you think displays of patriotism are right wing. When actually what happens is the right wing opportunistically jump on the patriot bandwagon because too many on the cultural liberal/left find stating love of country to be cringe. This essentially boils down to why the same type of people were pro EU, not any real understanding of the organisation but a way of displaying their sophisticated cosmopolitan credentials.
I don’t especially do patriotism because it’s arbitrary (England’s achievements are not mine) but I’m certainly not ashamed of the country either, I don’t call people flag shaggers because they are fine with displaying the cross of St George or the Union Jack or feel this condescending resentment towards people because of how they vote.

So with the greatest of respect, chiding me for saying I stereotype people (mainly just you) is largely you don’t like the fact that I can see your supposed worldliness for how vapid it is. And that your smug superiority is a house made of sand.

“We’re waiting”?

Who’s we in this context? The Royal we?. At least I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself. Even Letters told you I’d already explained what the Theory is.

I’ve explained to you countless times what my theory is. I’ve said there are far fewer English players going into coaching full stop…therefore there’s less of a deeper well to draw from for the top clubs. I also think that to a degree, at an implicit level the same snobbery you show towards Englishness (unsophisticated) is embodied by the boards of a lot of clubs or probably more realistically I admit they want the finished article (which means someone who has already coached in the top flight, and thus they will shop abroad).

Now you’ve noted that I said more English players should be prepared to play abroad and I still say this, and I say the same about English coaches…in order to get the experience they are not getting here. But I think also more needs to be done to encourage them from a young age. For a lot of working class kids in this country to become a footballer is an aspiration, why not becoming a coach as well?.