General Football Nonsense

[HCZ_Reborn]

Toto Schillachi (which anyone here old enough to remember Italia 90 will remember) has died at 59

[Letters]

7 goals for Italy...6 of them at Italia '90. Weird!

:rose:

While we're here, Gary Shaw of 'Villa fame died the other day.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/clyl083pxd9o

[HCZ_Reborn]

It was one of those seldom occasions where the best team at a World Cup didn’t go on and win it. How Argentina got to that final I will never know, Maradonna was not the Maradonna of 86….and the rest were a bunch of dirty fouling bastards

The Italians would have wiped the floor with the Germans I think.

Don’t get me wrong, I think Italia 90 was a poor tournament that people mainly remember because it was the first semi final we’d made since 66. Defensive football, a lot of 1-0 wins and games decided on pels.

[Letters]

Cameroon :bow:
Milla :bow:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/football__tweet/status/1838115080552226976?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

Filth

[The Wengerbabies]

Our Chesney has signed for Barca

[Marc Overmars]

City have won their case against the PL for the rule about commercial deals with associated companies.

So clubs sponsoring themselves with inflated deals will be legal now. :bow:

This is nothing to do with the 115 charges I should mention. That’s still ongoing but I suspect the PL are going to come out of this mess looking like a joke.

[Mac76]

So clubs sponsoring themselves with inflated deals will be legal now. :bow:



Except Arsenal no doubt

[dazthegooner]

So when do Newcastle announce thier multi billion pound sponsorship deals?

[WMUG]

https://i.redd.it/394neuccxitd1.png

Slightly depressing table showing how league titles across the world are increasingly being won by fewer and fewer teams.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t know what that table is meant to prove because obviously over a 50 year period you are going to have more teams that have won it in that time, than over a ten year period


Between 2014/2015 and 2023/2024 - four different teams have won the league - City, Liverpool, Leicester and Chelsea

If you take the whole of the 1980s - you also had four different winners - Liverpool, Villa, Everton and Arsenal

In that period Liverpool won six of the titles, Everton two, Villa one and Arsenal one.

Football has always been a bit of a closed shop in that regard, what has changed is that the teams at the top aren’t changing so as time goes on you will have the same three or four teams winning over the next fifty years

[Letters]

Football has always been a bit of a closed shop in that regard,
Not really.
Look back into the 50s and 60s. Loads of different champions.
And there was a lot of variation of a team’s quality year to year.
We finished 12th the season before our Double season and 5th the year after.
It’s not really possible to finish mid-table one season and be champions the next now.
(Leicester a possible outlier, but that’s very much the exception).
The gap between the haves and have nots is bigger than it’s ever been and the whole structure of football is set up to keep it that way.
As much as we all despite what City have done, there’s no other way to achieve success now other than to buy your way in. If we do win the title this year it will have been because of spending big.
TL;DR, football is all a bit shit these days.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Not really.
Look back into the 50s and 60s. Loads of different champions.
And there was a lot of variation of a team’s quality year to year.
We finished 12th the season before our Double season and 5th the year after.
It’s not really possible to finish mid-table one season and be champions the next now.
(Leicester a possible outlier, but that’s very much the exception).
The gap between the haves and have nots is bigger than it’s ever been and the whole structure of football is set up to keep it that way.
As much as we all despite what City have done, there’s no other way to achieve success now other than to buy your way in. If we do win the title this year it will have been because of spending big.
TL;DR, football is all a bit shit these days.

So basically what you’re saying is you have to go back to a time before you or I were actually born for things to have been more competitive.


Also the 50s and the 60s were a bit more of an outlier, compared to earlier decades where again you had one team that was dominant (Arsenal in the 1930s for example)


Also I’m pretty sure I did clearly mention that it’s more difficult to get into the more stratified top four or five teams that it ever was.


I think Football has definitely become worse in terms of overall competitiveness, but I’m saying that taking how many different teams have won the league over a certain period is not the best way of proving that

[Letters]

So basically what you’re saying is you have to go back to a time before you or I were actually born for things to have been more competitive.
You said “always”


Also the 50s and the 60s were a bit more of an outlier, compared to earlier decades where again you had one team that was dominant (Arsenal in the 1930s for example)
I’ll have to look into that more to know if that’s true.
But the general point is the game was far more competitive and there was far less of a gap between the haves and have nots. Didn’t Clough take Forest up and then win Divison One the very next season? That’s a bit of an outlier admittedly but my point is now the teams which come up are just fighting for survival all season, such is the gap between the PL and the other divisions. And the expansion of the CL has meant there’s a little group of teams at the top of each big league who are fairly distinct from the rest.


Also I’m pretty sure I did clearly mention that it’s more difficult to get into the more stratified top four or five teams that it ever was.
Then what are we arguing about?!


I think Football has definitely become worse in terms of overall competitiveness
That really isn’t something which needs debating.
Another measure of this is The Double. When I were a lad it was something spoken about in hushed tones, now it’s pretty common, because when the gap between the top few and the rest is so big it’s fairly probable that the champions will also be there or thereabouts in the Cup competition too.


but I’m saying that taking how many different teams have won the league over a certain period is not the best way of proving that
I think it’s a reasonable metric, but it’s certainly not the only one.

[HCZ_Reborn]

My argument from the outset is that I don’t think how many different teams have won the league is that instructive of a metric when talking about the change in football


In last thirty years six different clubs won the title, thirty year period before that nine different clubs


In the thirty year period 1964-1994 - Liverpool won the title thirteen times

In the same thirty year period 1994-now - United have won it 12 times

[Letters]

My argument from the outset is that I don’t think how many different teams have won the league is that instructive of a metric when talking about the change in football
I had a look decade by decade and I think you're basically right because you get one offs like Leicester, Blackburn and Leeds which mask the general trend.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

England: Pickford, Alexander-Arnold, Stones, Colwill, Lewis, Rice, Bellingham, Saka, Foden, Palmer, Gordon.
Subs: Guehi, Walker, Henderson, Gallagher, Livramento, Jones, Watkins, Gomes, Solanke, Pope, Madueke.

Greece: Vlachodimos, Rota, Mavropanos, Koulierakis, Giannoulis, Koubelis, Bakasetas, Siopis, Masouras, Tzolis, Pavlidis.
Subs: Tzolakis, Mandas, Vagiannidis, Retsos, Douvikas, Pelkas, Chatzigiovanis, Chatzidiakos, Konstantelias, Zafeiris, Mantalos.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Quite shitty of UEFA to say this can't be postponed for Baldock's death.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saliba starts for France against Israel.

Calafiori and Trossard both start in Italy v Belgium.

[dazthegooner]

Quite shitty of UEFA to say this can't be postponed for Baldock's death.

It's UEFA what do you expect?

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer. :haha:

Bellingham smacks the bar!

Italy 1-0 Belgium, Cambiaso. That was after a minute.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's UEFA what do you expect?

Fair.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Good chance for Greece.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer freekick, over.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Colwill saves Pickford from disaster.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer. :haha:

[dazthegooner]

Palmer. :haha:

Excuse me that’s England’s player of the year (yeah me neither) :shrug:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Great ball from AA, Gordon heads over.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 Greece, Pavlidis! Lovely goal.

[Letters]

1-0 to Greece :haha:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saka off injured, Madueke on.

[Letters]

2-0! :haha:

[Letters]

Will probably be chalked off actually

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-2 Pavlidis again! :haha:

[Letters]

VAR :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Oh still 0-1

[Letters]

1-1! Bellingham!

He must have a foot like a traction engine!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Bellingham, whoa.

[Letters]

2-1 Greece :haha:

FFS!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-2 Pavlidis!! What a disaster from England at the back.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

England 1-2 Greece, FT!!

:haha:

[Letters]

Hilarious mess at the back for their winner :lol:

[Mac76]

didn't watch but no Ben White still, what did they expect

i see Saka and Rice were the only England players booked, which either means #onlyArsenal is operating at international level or they were the only ones putting any effort in

[HCZ_Reborn]

Hopefully this might make the FA think twice about just appointing Carsley when the media are looking the other way, and that a proper selection process and a proper coach is needed

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Raya starts for Spain against Denmark, Merino on the bench.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Good save from Raya. :bow:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Merino is on for Spain!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-0 Zubimendi!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Finland: Hradecky, Alho, Hoskonen, Ivanov, Uronen, Kamara, Schuller, Peltola, Jensen, Kallman, Keskinen
Subs: Joronen, Sinisalo, Galvez, Antman, Lod, Pukki, Stahl, Pikkarainen, Tenho, Nissila, Pohjanpalo, Walta

England: Henderson, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Alexander-Arnold, Angel Gomes, Rice, Bellingham, Palmer, Grealish, Kane
Subs: Pope Pickford, Lewis, Livramento, Colwill, Foden, Gallagher, Watkins, Gordon, Solanke, Madueke

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-1 England, Grealish

[McNamara That Ghost...]

What a miss from Jensen for Finland.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Palmer hauled off, Madueke on.

Kane off, Watkins on.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-2 AA, great freekick.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

0-3 Rice!!!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-3. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Belgium v France is on now.

Germany v Netherlands too.

Both are on Youtube, viaplay international.

Saliba and Trossard both start.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Konate. :lol:

What was he doing.

Calafiori is playing against Israel too

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Saliba knew Openda was offside. :unsure:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's not offside and a pelanty for Belgium!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tielemans skies it!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pelanty to France.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Openda.

Saliba is having a stinker. :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Belgium 1-2 France, Kolo Muani!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Tchouameni sent off!

[Mac76]

1-1 Openda.

Saliba is having a stinker. :lol:

probably trying to get himself dropped so he can focus on the league :good:

[dazthegooner]

Or fending off interest from Real Marketing.

[Marc Overmars]

Thomas Tuchel is favourite for the England job.

[Mac76]

Thomas Tuchel is favourite for the England job.

:haha:

I can just see all the English bulldog fans loving a Gerrman being in charge

[Letters]

Thomas Tuchel is favourite for the England job.

Confirmed.

Interesting choice. Spoiler alert:
We will fail under him. It’s our thing.
England are the Spurs of international football. Not terrible but never win anything and a constant feeling that we’re not quite as good as we should be

[HCZ_Reborn]

Tuchel kind of flew in under the radar

He’s someone who shall we say has a mixed record at club level. But given he’s coached Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Dortmund and PSG….he definitely has experience.

We need to evaluate defence and up front, but I still say with some of the players we have in the squad, there’s no reason why we can’t as I stated some time ago go into the North American tournament as favourites.

That of course guarantees nothing. But Spain are nothing special, France is on the wain, Germany is in Transition, Argentina in many respects were lucky to win the last World Cup and Brazil cannot seem to get things right (though I wouldn’t rule them out, in fact if I was asked to choose a winner in two years time it would be us or them)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m going to leave this as a marker here.

I think it’s almost certain we will end up playing Germany at the next World Cup

[GP]

This isn't the brexit I was promised.

[Letters]

We need to evaluate defence and up front, but I still say with some of the players we have in the squad, there’s no reason why we can’t as I stated some time ago go into the North American tournament as favourites.
You did.
I didn’t agree with you then, I don’t agree now.
I think what we will actually see is more failure and maybe some reflection that Southgate wasn’t so bad after all.
England are the Spurs of international football. We’re not that bad but we never win anything and there’s often a feeling that we should maybe be doing a bit better.
It’s the ‘istory of England, I believe in the ‘istory.

Prove me wrong, chaps, prove me wrong!
Obviously I’d love it, just love it, if they did. I can’t really see it though

[HCZ_Reborn]

You did.
I didn’t agree with you then, I don’t agree now.
I think what we will actually see is more failure and maybe some reflection that Southgate wasn’t so bad after all.
England are the Spurs of international football. We’re not that bad but we never win anything and there’s often a feeling that we should maybe be doing a bit better.
It’s the ‘istory of England, I believe in the ‘istory.

Prove me wrong, chaps, prove me wrong!
Obviously I’d love it, just love it, if they did. I can’t really see it though

In fairness your analysis is more just jaded cynicism, of course jaded cynicism is totally understandable And there’s no reason why you believe my opinion is any different to that of the eternally optimistic. I can tell you however that the national team means almost nothing to me compared to Arsenal, whilst I’d sooner us win games than not….i can’t say I have the same nerves when England go into a big game than Arsenal do, when we lost on pels to Italy I was slightly disappointed and when we lost to Spain in July I really didn’t care at all barring the hope that Southgate would be going.
Your response suggests that it proves that Southgate did a good job as coach to get us to back to back euro finals, my way of looking at it is that it proves the quality that we have at our disposal when even a mediocre like Southgate can get us to two finals.

Southgate in fairness did a good job he took us on when we were in the Doldrums, but it’s fair to say that he stayed too long. And that the Euros and how we played showed that he was holding us back. When even the pundits and commentators who constantly lionised Southgate were getting frustrated by his negative tactics, you could tell there was something wrong.

I think the reason we might be considered favourites is simply because the squad is better than any other team in world football right now barring maybe Brazil. The so called golden generation under the late Sven, well at best it was on a par with several other talented national teams. The fact is there isn’t the strength in depth in international football currently and this is why we have this short window of opportunity.
After the World Cup it may well be gone as I expect the Germans to become a force again, France to be revitalised etc. We’ve already squandered the opportunity to win the Euros by keeping Southgate longer than we should have.
2026 represents our best chance to win the World Cup since 1966, I’m not sure Tuchel is the best coach to get us over the line, but I’m certainly not convinced that he’s not.

[Mac76]

You did.
I didn’t agree with you then, I don’t agree now.
I think what we will actually see is more failure and maybe some reflection that Southgate wasn’t so bad after all.
England are the Spurs of international football. We’re not that bad but we never win anything and there’s often a feeling that we should maybe be doing a bit better.
It’s the ‘istory of England, I believe in the ‘istory.

Prove me wrong, chaps, prove me wrong!
Obviously I’d love it, just love it, if they did. I can’t really see it though

I get where you're coming from but I don't agree England always has to be stuck in the bridesmaid role, tbh I'm glad we've won nothing in recent times as it would further fuel rising English supremicism, but a Jurgen Klopp or Guardiola is winning something with that squad (assuming Ben White comes.back into the fold)

[Marc Overmars]

You’ve got to think that Tuchel will bring a lot more to the table tactically, I’ve always felt he was a decent coach but just took on poisoned chalices in PSG and Chelsea. You also have to respect the fact he rather sickeningly won the CL for Chelsea despite them being nowhere near the best in Europe. He only needs to navigate less than 10 games and I think having a coach like him is worth a go because we won’t have many more opportunities while the landscape of international football is kind of shit. We need something short term to just get this group of players firing.

It’s only a one tournament deal too so I’d say The FA have certainly targeted winning the World Cup. If we fail then I assume he will be moved on and by then someone like Howe might be available for a longer stint.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I get where you're coming from but I don't agree England always has to be stuck in the bridesmaid role, tbh I'm glad we've won nothing in recent times as it would further fuel rising English supremicism, but a Jurgen Klopp or Guardiola is winning something with that squad (assuming Ben White comes.back into the fold)


I sometimes think we live in parallel dimensions as I don’t know where this supposed “English supremacy” is coming from. All I’ve heard for years from both left, right, liberal…every political direction is talking the country down. Be it excess wokery or Brexit, the country is in terminal decline.
Calling it Rainy fascist island or the populist right cheering on that narcissistic man child Elon Musk when he’s actively trying to destabilise the country using Twitter.

No one it seems is proud to be English or British, because they aren’t living in a country where their ideological idealism is being fulfilled.


Equally this assumption that fans will have a problem with the FA appointing a German is a mistaken assumption held by left and right. The left because of the sneering contempt they hold the working class in, and the right who have equal contempt for them but want to utilise them as useful idiots…starting with the Daily Mail trying to rile up xenophobic sentiment on its back pages this morning.

Mostly what I’ve seen from almost all quarters about the Tuchel appointment is what I could best describe as “cautious optimism”.

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/jonnygabriel/status/1846154883780493500?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

[Letters]

In fairness your analysis is more just jaded cynicism
It definitely is, but that doesn't make it wrong.


And there’s no reason why you believe my opinion is any different to that of the eternally optimistic.
I don't think your opinion is based on a mindless optimism, it's certainly true that we have a good squad right now. Whatever you think of Southgate, getting to two Euros finals, a World Cup semi-final and a World Cup Quarter Final in which we lost to eventual finalists, it's the best run in my lifetime. The only finals in my lifetime, the only final on foreign soil ever. I'm struggling to believe that he just lucked out with a good set of players, we've had good squads before and not achieved much with them.
Obviously if Tuchel does win us a World Cup then I will revise my opinion, but I'm struggling to see it - that is based on jaded cynicism admittedly, but not baseless jaded cynicism. It's based on decades of this shit.


Southgate in fairness did a good job he took us on when we were in the Doldrums, but it’s fair to say that he stayed too long. And that the Euros and how we played showed that he was holding us back. When even the pundits and commentators who constantly lionised Southgate were getting frustrated by his negative tactics, you could tell there was something wrong.
There was a lot of criticism of him in the group stage in which we were awful, but we grew in to the tournament and actually deserved our final spot. We lost to the best team in the tournament. They weren't unbeatable. Would a better manager have won us it? It's obviously impossible to know, hardly worth debating.

Tuchel is clearly a better manager than Southgate BUT I would note that sometimes a manager and team just work well together, and with Southgate and England that seemed to be the case, just like with Emery and Arsenal it didn't. I will continue my jaded cynicism but obviously hope I'm wrong.

[Letters]

https://x.com/jonnygabriel/status/1846154883780493500?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

:haha:

Brilliant.

[Mac76]

Equally this assumption that fans will have a problem with the FA appointing a German is a mistaken assumption held by left and right. The left because of the sneering contempt they hold the working class in, and the right who have equal contempt for them but want to utilise them as useful idiots…starting with the Daily Mail trying to rile up xenophobic sentiment on its back pages this morning.



Most people on the left are working class, Labour is a working class movement, so are the socailist Workers etc - i admit Momentum is a bit more studenty but I think that will fade out anyway

yes the right wing media (which is far by far most of it in this country) try and make being working class synonymous with being right wing and nationalist

but you can't tell me there's a fair few people in this country who don't think "I want England to win because I'm English and it's fun to cheer on your national team"

instead they think "I want England to win because England are the best country with the best football team"

we all know if England had pubbed the Euros there would have been none of "we were lucky" and all of "we deserved to win" etc

That's what I personally object to, it is a form of supremicism and in these decisive days it's yet more fuel to those who want to fracture society and impose mob rule

[HCZ_Reborn]

No I disagree completely, the current modern left is in no way working class whatsoever. It’s middle class, urban and city dwelling and university educated.

The old working class left has long since abandoned the left because of the way it looks down on them. This is especially true in America, where the vast majority of people who work in unionised labour are Trump supporters…and Trump is popular in the former industrial heartlands which used to massively Democrat voters but the Democrats instead now appeal to the professional class who live either in cities or the suburbs. And this is why they struggle more in states like Michigan and Pennsylvania and they are doing well in more gentrified states like Virginia, Colorado which used to be heavily Republican.


It’s cultural divergence.


On the whole England fan matter, when you go to the Emirates stadium and the fans start chanting “we are by far the greatest team the world has ever seen?” do you think the fanbase mean that literally or do you think it’s just hyperbole.

Every fan base thinks they have the greatest team, the Brazilians, the Germans, The Argentines etc. You can argue that because we haven’t had success we should be more humble but that’s not how football fandom works.

Despite the media’s attempts to paint England fans as thugs based on historical reputation, the fact of the matter is our travelling support are people from all walks of life going to a different country to enjoy themselves, support the national team and hope that it lasts as long as possible.

Not sure it’s something I’d do myself (although I do want to try and go to North America in 2026, not so much for England but to both catch up with family and see a World Cup match…as one of the venues Levi Stadium (the 49ers stadium) is quite near where family members of mine live) but I don’t see the need to sneer at it.

[Letters]

instead they think "I want England to win because England are the best country with the best football team"
I'm not saying that no-one thinks that way, but I don't think it's as common as it used to be.

[Mac76]

No I disagree completely, the current modern left is in no way working class whatsoever. It’s middle class, urban and city dwelling and university educated.



I know a lot of Labour members and that is not true I'm afraid, you're just resorting to a cliche

yes the preppy advisers and quite a few of the MPs are university educated, but not the movement itself

i get some lifelong Labour households went Tory during the Thatcher era and then post-2016, but still, those involved in the left movement are often working class

and that's the point, we're not talking about voters, but actual followers of the rank-and-file movement

[HCZ_Reborn]

I know a lot of Labour members and that is not true I'm afraid, you're just resorting to a cliche

yes the preppy advisers and quite a few of the MPs are university educated, but not the movement itself

i get some lifelong Labour households went Tory during the Thatcher era and then post-2016, but still, those involved in the left movement are often working class

and that's the point, we're not talking about voters, but actual followers of the rank-and-file movement

I used to be a Labour Party member and if anything what I’ve said applies even more to the rank and file movement. It’s not perhaps relevant as to be a member of any political party in this day and age is something a middle class political hobbyist would be…..despite what Oscar Wilde stated it’s not just socialism that takes up too many evenings.

The Labour Party is a progressive party, which means like with many parties on the left its core base tends to be those who regard themselves as socially progressive, where as previously it concerned itself more with representation of the working man. Because the type of work that usually involved unionised labour largely doesn’t exist anymore and because unions are largely a form of racketeering in this country, the actual worker who works in service, retail etc are not represented.
Where as those who join Labour are as I say from the professional arts subject at university class.
And I’m saying this as someone who is middle class and educated….

[Mac76]

I used to be a Labour Party member and if anything what I’ve said applies even more to the rank and file movement. It’s not perhaps relevant as to be a member of any political party in this day and age is something a middle class political hobbyist would be…..despite what Oscar Wilde stated it’s not just socialism that takes up too many evenings.

The Labour Party is a progressive party, which means like with many parties on the left its core base tends to be those who regard themselves as socially progressive, where as previously it concerned itself more with representation of the working man. Because the type of work that usually involved unionised labour largely doesn’t exist anymore and because unions are largely a form of racketeering in this country, the actual worker who works in service, retail etc are not represented.
Where as those who join Labour are as I say from the professional arts subject at university class.
And I’m saying this as someone who is middle class and educated….

And I'm saying as someone who knows a lot of Labour members in more than one area that you're wrong :)

yes it has its fair share of the type of people you desceribe but it's still in my experience predominantly working class

although i despair at the fact that this country is still so class-based, I thought the whole point of Thatcher was to reduce the class divide, but thanks to the seterotype of 'working class values' reinforced by the media - from Eastenders to teh SUn - its still with us and one of the worst things about this country

[HCZ_Reborn]

And I'm saying as someone who knows a lot of Labour members in more than one area that you're wrong :)

yes it has its fair share of the type of people you desceribe but it's still in my experience predominantly working class

although i despair at the fact that this country is still so class-based, I thought the whole point of Thatcher was to reduce the class divide, but thanks to the seterotype of 'working class values' reinforced by the media - from Eastenders to teh SUn - its still with us and one of the worst things about this country

Ah I see you’re doing that thing again where you assert something despite paucity of evidence.


And again no the opposite is true, despite the fact social mobility is far lower than it should be…the old stratified class system does not in fact exist as it did, and when people identify as working class what they are doing is scarcely different from a teenager with pink hair identifying as non binary. It’s nothing new, Harold Wilson used to cosplay being working class despite being an academic elitist. The difference between him and the people you know is that he was aware this was an illusion.

As I said earlier today, we don’t share contiguous reality…..I live in the real world and you live in some construct that has been manufactured as part of a collaborative effort between Alan Bleasdale and Ken Loach which Ben Elton wants to turn into a musical

[HCZ_Reborn]

Getting the pundit class doing performative bitching because an Englishman wasn’t chosen

I personally don’t care that much, I think on balance it’s better to have an English coach because the coach of successful national sides usually is a citizen of that nation.

So there’s a prestige element. But ultimately for that to be tenable you need more ex players prepared to get into coaching rather than the comfortable pundit job when their playing career is over (Rooney may be a dickhead, but he’s prepared to give it a go in the championship) and you also need more premier league clubs prepared to give English coaches an opportunity.

We have four from 20 English coaches in the premier league. That tells you why we have a German coach

[Letters]

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

Precisely

Yeah I like to see English Arsenal players as well, but like with English England coach it’s a would like, rather than must have

[Mac76]

I'd prefer an English coach in the same way that in some ways I'd prefer English players at Arsenal. But I'd rather have a good England manager and good Arsenal players.
It's a good point about how few English managers there are at the top level. Of course that translates to how few options there are for our national coach to be English.

I agree, it's more fun in general if national coaches are from the country that the team is representing.

However we continue to struggle in this country to bring through people with the right level of tactical nous etc.

I'm not sure if that's a poor education system, lack of sophistication in the lower leagues (where most English coaches are) or what. English football's still full of Mike Bassetts IMO, which probably feeds through into the quality of training new coaches get when they do their badges

Look at the attitude of that Steve Holland c**t who pissed off Ben White, there's still too much of that mentality

[HCZ_Reborn]

There’s also too much of this self hating English mentality which people seem to embody ever since Brexit

The irony of it, is these people don’t realise just how parochial they sound. That somehow England is this primitive backwater compared to the sophisticated Europeans. Nativism and this supremacist attitude that is bemoaned exists throughout the continent, in fact arguably you can say that it’s more pronounced.

I think it’s this kind of snobbery that provides a barrier to those from working class backgrounds getting on in life in any walk of life, and this is why government and civil service still looks very much like an Oxbridge alumni old boys network

The problem to me is two fold, I don’t think there is the incentive for ex professionals to take on coaching either at home or abroad (people like Graham Potter going to manage in Sweden is an outlier, and before that Woy was the most high profile coach to work abroad). It’s not a failure of formal education, because like with playing the game itself there is something intuitive about tactical innovation.

I think often it’s just safer to take on a cosy media role where you don’t face the scrutiny and pressure

It’s only now we are seeing English players being prepared to try their hand in foreign leagues, with both Jadon Sancho and Jude Bellingham having played for Borussia Dortmund and for those who want to understand the different philosophies of football, I think this may be beneficial (although that said it didn’t do much for Glenn Hoddle)

The other thing is that Premier league clubs I think do have a degree of bias against English coaches and even mid table clubs and relegation scrappers are more inclined to install a foreign coach than take a chance with someone who has done a good job in the Lower leagues. It’s not explicitly anti English, it’s not wanting to take the risk on someone without experience and often it was that the same British coaches would be recycled amongst the clubs - Sam Allardyce, Steve Bruce, David Moyes, Mark Hughes etc.

[Letters]

The big problem with English players or managers working overseas is our utter ineptitude at, or maybe indifference for, learning other languages.
English has become a sort of global language - in no small part thanks to my organisation - so we don't really make the effort.
We have gap year students at our church each year from Germany. They come over here at 18 and their English is all but flawless - we can talk to them like I'd talk to any English person. Compare and contrast with my going to France. I could ask where the beach is but I doubt I'd understand the answer.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The big problem with English players or managers working overseas is our utter ineptitude at, or maybe indifference for, learning other languages.
English has become a sort of global language - in no small part thanks to my organisation - so we don't really make the effort.
We have gap year students at our church each year from Germany. They come over here at 18 and their English is all but flawless - we can talk to them like I'd talk to any English person. Compare and contrast with my going to France. I could ask where the beach is but I doubt I'd understand the answer.

Again there’s no natural ineptitude, we just don’t take it seriously enough to teach foreign languages from an early age

If someone like David Beckham can just about handle speaking Spanish competently (and he could) there’s no reason why others can’t pick up language skills. Plus it can work both ways, I love Robert Pires but the guy was clearly utterly hopeless at speaking English.

[Mac76]

There’s also too much of this self hating English mentality which people seem to embody ever since Brexit


Really?

I see exactly the opposite - bulldogs and flags everywhere, a stupid denial - or almost as bad, an acceptance - of the economic and social damage done because of a backwards-looking illogical sense of not wanting them foreigners over 'ere and 'taking back control' which is nonsense in a global economy

[Mac76]

It’s only now we are seeing English players being prepared to try their hand in foreign leagues

Oh dear... :rolleyes:

ever heard of Gary Lineker? Chris Waddle? Michael Owen? Trevor Francis? Paul Ince? Glen Hoddle? David Beckham? Steve MacManaman? Kevin Keegan? Owen Hargreaves? Mark Hately?

Or perhaps our own Tony Woodcock? David Platt?

:haha:

[Letters]

Again there’s no natural ineptitude, we just don’t take it seriously enough to teach foreign languages from an early age
Well obviously there's no natural ineptitude, there's a laziness or indifference. And it is a stumbling block for us working abroad.
Individual examples like Beckham* or Pires are irrelevant to the general fact they all them foreigners, particularly in Europe, tend to speak better English than we do their languages.
Which is also, he says trying not to talk about Brexit, one issue with being in the EU and freedom of movement. We are a rich nation, so there's opportunities here, and we speak English which makes it easier to find work here.


*Lineker is a better example, he can speak Spanish fluently following his time in Barcelona, but he is smarter than the average bear.

[Mac76]

Well obviously there's no natural ineptitude, there's a laziness or indifference.

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire

I'm quite lazy about languages but when I've been traveling somewhere I do make an effort to at least make an effort and speak some of the basics, e.g. where is something etc

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh dear... :rolleyes:

ever heard of Gary Lineker? Chris Waddle? Michael Owen? Trevor Francis? Paul Ince? Glen Hoddle? David Beckham? Steve MacManaman? Kevin Keegan? Owen Hargreaves? Mark Hately?

Or perhaps our own Tony Woodcock? David Platt?

:haha:


Suffice to say that I’m talking about the last 20-25 years and was talking about young players trying to make a career for themselves by starting in European leagues, but I forget that you’re such an unbelievable pedant that your first thought would be to jump on this point rather than engage with the topic as a whole.

And so to save you the effort of replying


“Oh typical tantrum response when I call you out for something”

[HCZ_Reborn]

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire

I'm quite lazy about languages but when I've been traveling somewhere I do make an effort to at least make an effort and speak some of the basics, e.g. where is something etc

Where does the inbuilt self-hating middle class snootiness that George Orwell observed in Road to Wigan Pier derive from, do you think?

I think it comes from 18th and 19th century when the hipsters of the time (yes the wallies have always been with us) thought they were cool by declaring their love for French things - literature, cuisine, art and degeneracy. The libertine class who wanted to live like Byron or Shelley but lacked the talent

[Letters]

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire
There is something in that. And the fact that so much pop music, TV films is in English and consumed by a worldwide audience, it makes English easier to learn in a way - or there's more incentive to maybe.
Either way, I'd suggest it's a factor in why fewer English players have gone overseas to ply their trade - obviously there examples, you've listed some, but it has historically been rare.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Really?

I see exactly the opposite - bulldogs and flags everywhere, a stupid denial - or almost as bad, an acceptance - of the economic and social damage done because of a backwards-looking illogical sense of not wanting them foreigners over 'ere and 'taking back control' which is nonsense in a global economy

Well I know that’s what you see, but you see the world through the eyes of someone who embodies the attitude I'm deriding.

The irony of parochialism goes hand in hand with the irony of you accusing other people of a superior attitude :lol:

[Mac76]

Where does the inbuilt self-hating middle class snootiness that George Orwell observed in Road to Wigan Pier derive from, do you think?

I think it comes from 18th and 19th century when the hipsters of the time (yes the wallies have always been with us) thought they were cool by declaring their love for French things - literature, cuisine, art and degeneracy. The libertine class who wanted to live like Byron or Shelley but lacked the talent

The middle classes don't make up most of the population, particularly culturally

even very well off builder company owners etc living in big houses and driving £100,000 cars still regard themselves as working class

that's the really depressing thing, money doesn't lead to enlightenment

It's not snobbery to like foreign culture, not least food where some foreign cultures have historically proved themselves more adept at using a greater variety of different ingredients and flavourings etc to create more interesting dishes

but also other cultural aspects, for example most rock music is essentially actually based on the blues which hails from, errr, abroad

Many great things have been created in this country but there's nothign wrong with acknowledging waht otehr cultures bring to the table

England is not the best country in the world - to say so is nationalistic BS - but it has brought some great things but so have other cultures - other countries/cultures are just different, not better or worse

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway, I should say there’s no genuine enmity from me. But I felt Mac76 deserved a bit of a scathing attitude for trying to be a clever dick. I wouldn’t mind but I’d already referenced Glenn Hoddle’s time in Marseille earlier :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The middle classes don't make up most of the population, particularly culturally

even very well off builder company owners etc living in big houses and driving £100,000 cars still regard themselves as working class

that's the really depressing thing, money doesn't lead to enlightenment

It's not snobbery to like foreign culture, not least food where some foreign cultures have historically proved themselves more adept at using a greater variety of different ingredients and flavourings etc to create more interesting dishes

but also other cultural aspects, for example most rock music is essentially actually based on the blues which hails from, errr, abroad

Many great things have been created in this country but there's nothign wrong with acknowledging waht otehr cultures bring to the table

England is not the best country in the world - to say so is nationalistic BS - but it has brought some great things but so have other cultures - other countries/cultures are just different, not better or worse

No it’s not snobbery to like other cultures, but it is when you have such utter contempt for your own because you think it makes you seem worldly and enlightened. As I say, the irony is it actually shows you how little you understand foreign culture.

Take France for example, this English superiority you speak of is as nothing compared to Gaulism and French pride. You see the tricolour everywhere in France…there isn’t any handwringing about belting out La marseillaise. And whatever contempt you feel that the Brits might have for the French…well they more than reciprocate….and not just to us…they absolutely hate the Germans as well.

Similar attitude in Italy as well. Italian pride is just not something they are bashful about.


Human beings are tribal by nature. As I explained earlier there’s literally no difference between that kind of jingoism and Arsenal fans singing “we are by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen”

It’s just the middle class effete elitists who currently hold a hegemony on the culture (in terms of the academic institutions and things like art and entertainment) don’t like it.


Also I’m glad that you managed to appreciate the point I made the other day which is that the class system in this country is cosplaying and just because someone may identify as working class, it doesn’t make them so. Although I think you’re more referring to the cultural phenomenon of what was known as the Nouveau Riche.

[HCZ_Reborn]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

Whilst I really don’t like this kind of hatred for British Empire stuff where people are taught to be ashamed of our past rather than just accept it for what it was. Man we did a fucking horrible job with India :lol:, we murdered the intellectual and moderate Muslims, we absolutely influenced their caste system and the India-Pakistan divide which we drew up displaced millions and causes trouble to this day. And this is even before you get to the Bengal famine.


Soz

[Letters]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

The thing which keeps the lights on at my organisation is the IELTS test - an English test* which people do in order to study or work in an English speaking country.
They love a bit of IELTS in India (and China). I've heard anecdotally than in places where people advertise for a partner they sometimes put their IELTS score as part of their profile!

*Fun fact, do you know what the difference between a test and an exam is? A test is on a subject - like English, hence IELTS being a test. An exam is based on a syllabus - so you are taught a load of stuff and then are examined on it.

[Letters]

Soz
:lol: Soz is right.
I may have related at the time when I was on a "very important" business trip to Cairo earlier in the year I had time for a quick trip to see the pyramids.
I vaguely remembered something about the Sphinx's beard so I asked our guide about it who cheerily informed me it's in the British Museum :haha:
Yeah, soz, that was kind of our thing!

But it's generations ago so, y'know, nothing to do with me, guv :shrug:
I do find the German sense of national self-flagellation a bit weird about the War a bit strange, but I think a lot of that is borne out of a sense of not wishing to repeat historic mistakes rather than any sense of personal responsibility

[Letters]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ce8y6zqjgdyo

:popcorn:

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/ce8y6zqjgdyo

:popcorn:

I want to see the video

Edit update: I’ve not seen the video but I’ve seen the basic transcript, I don’t know if he’s agreed to be filmed but I doubt it. But he’s having a bit of a rant about Klopp, the kind of thing we’ve all said about people we’ve worked with. Clearly unprofessional remarks, but at the same time i feel like it’s an invasion of privacy….the worst thing you can say about Coote is that he should be more guarded about who he opens up to.
But I think if some scumbag journalist has videoed him without his consent, and he loses his career as a result…that’s fucking awful.

Edit Update 2: Coote does know he’s being filmed and in fact realises he shouldn’t have mouthed off and pleads with the guy not to release the video. Ok if he knows he’s being filmed no sympathy.

[Letters]

I haven’t seen the video and honestly don’t care about this.
In other news, Lineker OUT!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdd456rzg75o

[HCZ_Reborn]

I haven’t seen the video and honestly don’t care about this.
In other news, Lineker OUT!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdd456rzg75o

I haven’t watched Match of the Day in about 15 years

[Letters]

I haven’t watched Match of the Day in about 15 years

If we win I tend to record it to watch our highlights - and while I'm there I watch other games if there's anything to chuckle about like a Spurs/Utd/City loss - but I tend to skip all the nonsense in between games

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah I haven’t watched it in donkeys years either. Feels a bit obsolete now with how readily available highlights are.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yeah I haven’t watched it in donkeys years either. Feels a bit obsolete now with how readily available highlights are.

That’s it exactly.

[Mac76]

Yeah I haven’t watched it in donkeys years either. Feels a bit obsolete now with how readily available highlights are.

I still watch it but generally skip through the 'analysis', just watched both MotD's from the weekend as it happens, it's more enjoyable than seeking out highlights on the phone or computer tbh

[Letters]

I think the MoTD highlights are a bit more extensive than what you get on YouTube so I prefer to watch those, but yeah I generally can't be doing with the analysis.
Sometimes I'll watch the interviews and if there's a sending or penalty which is controversial I'll watch what the pundits have to say about that.
And obviously I FF through Spurs/City/Utd/Chelsea winning <_<
And through games I don't care about, which is most of them.

[Mac76]

I FF through Spuds winning but not bothered about the others except City I might do sometimes, Haaland's ugly mug is too much sometimes

But most of the other teams I watch, partly because it's, well, football and also I play FPL so the highlights are part of the realsearch

I drew the line at W Ham v Neverton tonight though :lol:

[WMUG]

San Marino have been promoted in the Nations League! :lol:

There's also a genuine chance of them making the World Cup playoffs as a result :d

[Letters]

I saw they won an away game, I think for the first time in their history :lol:

[WMUG]

First away win, first time scoring more than once in a game, and a whole bunch of other records.

Now they just need to beat a team that isn't Liechtenstein.

[dazthegooner]

Hasn’t Harry Kane scored most of his non penalty goals against teams like this? :unsure:

[Mac76]

Hasn’t Harry Kane scored most of his non penalty goals against teams like this? :unsure:

Totally, which is why his England goal-scoring record doesn't bear any comparison from otehr players who were around in the days when there weren't so many friendlies or one-sided games

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

You say that, but then Charlton scored 22 of his 49 in friendlies.

And he scored in plenty of games which finished in huge scores; 9-0, two games which finished 10-0 and two games which finished 8-1.

[Letters]

Hasn’t Harry Kane scored most of his non penalty goals against teams like this? :unsure:

I was going to say “I wonder how long it will take for Mac to see this”
:lol:

[Letters]

While we are here, people bang on about Pele winning 3 World Cups.
Reading his autobiography and he was out injured for most of ‘62.
What a fraud!

[HCZ_Reborn]

While we are here, people bang on about Pele winning 3 World Cups.
Reading his autobiography and he was out injured for most of ‘62.
What a fraud!

1962 was all about Garrincha

1970 it was just the whole team. That was the perfect unit from top to bottom

[Letters]

Apparently Brazil never lost a game which Garrincha and Pele played in together