The Arsenal v Leicester City, Saturday 28 September 3pm KO, Emirates Stadium

[Mac76]

0-3 Vardy hatter

Raya may not be fit for this one but Neto wil be able to play, elsewhere White and Timber are still doubts

The good news is Trossard served his ban for the Bolton game so if we want we can start him again and he'll obvs be fully rested

If Saka gets another assist he'll break a PL record, currently held by him and Henry, as having an assist in the most number of consecutive games at the start of a season

If Raya, White and Timber don't play then maybe it's this:

Neto
Nicholls Saliba Gabriel Califiori
Partey Rice
Saka Sterling Trossard
Havertz

I've put Nicholls at RB instead of Partey, I thought he did very well in the week and it's his natural position

I also think Arteta will continue to play Partey ahead of Jorg for now at DM

Also Nwaneri must be in for a shout instead of Sterling, but if he did play Nicholls maybe that woud be two very 'new' players to be fielding

[Letters]

I hope we win, tbh.

[HCZ_Reborn]

There has been a question doing the rounds as to whether Nwaneri should start and I’m inclined to say yes


For a game like this you absolutely don’t need two defensive midfielders, so the option is there to both play Nwaneri and whoever is going to fill in for Odegaard at Number ten.






There’s no sense in my mind to play both Rice and Partey when we have a potentially tricky match against PSG to navigate. Playing Saka against Bolton was silly in the extreme, but that’s done with and I’d consider resting him also.

Martinelli needs to be playing games like this in order to recapture confidence as i simply don’t see Trossard as being quick enough to be worth playing on the left long term


Neto, Califiori, Saliba, Gabriel, Kiwior, Rice, Nwaneri, Trossard, Martinelli, Havertz, Sterling

[Mac76]

I'm not against that although again Kiwior's not a natural RB so I do wonder about playing Nicholls instead

I guess it does work to play Nwaneri and Sterling if as you say we don't play two DMs

Martinelli played a lot of minutes in the week so I think he'll maybe revert to Trossard as he's got the fresher legs and I don't think Arteta thinks he's as bad a starting player as some people do (and nor do I)

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don’t have an issue with starting Trossard, my opinion is simply that Martinelli is a superior player who needs the game time to recover his form, and I consider that more important than Trossard being happy. But then again it’s academic anyway, as I would play them both on Saturday.

[Mac76]

I see you're leaving out Saka, I hadn't spotted that, yes it makes sense though not sure Arteat will leave him out, he's more likely to start him and then take him off

I don't think Martinelli is superior they're just different players

[HCZ_Reborn]

I see you're leaving out Saka, I hadn't spotted that, yes it makes sense though not sure Arteat will leave him out, he's more likely to start him and then take him off

I don't think Martinelli is superior they're just different players

Fair enough, my opinion is that he is. That’s not having a go at Trossard either…I think he’s a very good player


I just think Martinelli is an exceptional player both in terms of pace and technique….i think he’s another player who has been mismanaged by Arteta and it’s affected his confidence. I think the potential is there for him to be better than Saka, as for me as good as Saka is…he’s a little one dimensional

[Mac76]

mismanaged how? I think he got a good run of games last season but then lost form so given we were in a title race Trossard took his place because he was scoring goals - if a player does well he deserves to be given a chance and he was contributing more than Martinelli

And this season we've seen Martinelli more than i was expecting, Arteta's given him a fair number of minutes

I think there are signs he's getting back to good form but in front of goal his decision making and execution are still poor atm

I realise Saka seems one-dimensional in attack but he also does a job defensively, he can do more when called upon

[HCZ_Reborn]

It’s not the lack of minutes, but when a player is clearly lacking in confidence you need a coach who is a people person who can work on it with them. Arteta isn’t the type of person to put an arm round the shoulder, in that event there should be someone who is.
Gabriel Jesus has also clearly been mismanaged, whilst never prolific the extent of his deterioration despite a long term injury is shocking.
In my view it’s about Arteta’s indifference to attacking football and attacking footballers. Even with Saka there’s clear mismanagement and in recent seasons you saw him drop off in form in a big way.

[Marc Overmars]

Want to see some goals from our forwards here.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Blaming Arteta for Gabriel Jesus's downturn could be allowed and understood to an extent...but Martinelli, no, now its clear you are just playing favourites.

He is undoubtedly the new teacher's pet. He's started games that he doesn't deserve to start (at least you kind of admit this) and played minutes anyone with his contributory stats (or should I say lack of) would kill for. A close to expired Sterling in only one start, has doubled all of Martinelli's contribution this season. Stats do not tell the whole story but an absence of any sensible stat both domestically and internationally should ring alarm bells.

Comparing his potential with Saka's is even more bewildering. I mean though he has looked jaded and poor this season (I have said this in practically every match thread ), every single goal we have scored in the league (except for Califiori's goal ) has come from his direct effort. That's what a poor Saka gives you i.e. almost 11 points in our case. How there can still be any rumblings on who is the better or more important player baffles me.

Anyway this is all academic, like I said earlier, I actually think Arteta has realised he needs to move on from Martinelli. AFAIAC, both him and Jesus have mainly themselves to blame for being stuck in such a shitty loop (for over a year now) and making themselves look so dispensable.

Look at Kai Havertz, a limited player in all aspects, yet he's learnt to live and thrive in Artetaball and now has the stats to support this. I think both Jesus and Martinelli can be accused of being mentally lazy and that's why I have little time for them.

Anyway, I'd start him against Leicester simply because he's a workhorse and I actually think that game is going to be a lot tougher and physically draining than a lot of us think it will be (close to Villa like).

However if I am looking for a goal, Trossard and Sterling would always be ahead of him; and I don't think anyone needs to make any fantastical arguments to back this assertion

[Letters]

Want to see some goals from our forwards here.

:lol: Good luck with that.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Blaming Arteta for Gabriel Jesus's downturn could be allowed and understood to an extent...but Martinelli, no, now its clear you are just playing favourites.

He is undoubtedly the new teacher's pet. He's started games that he doesn't deserve to start (at least you kind of admit this) and played minutes anyone with his contributory stats (or should I say lack of) would kill for. A close to expired Sterling in only one start, has doubled all of Martinelli's contribution this season. Stats do not tell the whole story but an absence of any sensible stat both domestically and internationally should ring alarm bells.

Comparing his potential with Saka's is even more bewildering. I mean though he has looked jaded and poor this season (I have said this in practically every match thread ), every single goal we have scored in the league (except for Califiori's goal ) has come from his direct effort. That's what a poor Saka gives you i.e. almost 11 points in our case. How there can still be any rumblings on who is the better or more important player baffles me.

Anyway this is all academic, like I said earlier, I actually think Arteta has realised he needs to move on from Martinelli. AFAIAC, both him and Jesus have mainly themselves to blame for being stuck in such a shitty loop (for over a year now) and making themselves look so dispensable.

Look at Kai Havertz, a limited player in all aspects, yet he's learnt to live and thrive in Artetaball and now has the stats to support this. I think both Jesus and Martinelli can be accused of being mentally lazy and that's why I have little time for them.

Anyway, I'd start him against Leicester simply because he's a workhorse and I actually think that game is going to be a lot tougher and physically draining than a lot of us think it will be (close to Villa like).

However if I am looking for a goal, Trossard and Sterling would always be ahead of him; and I don't think anyone needs to make any fantastical arguments to back this assertion

Yeah but your explanation for us going after Mudryk was Arteta somehow deciding to phase out Martinelli, so it’s best to just go with you don’t know what you’re talking about.


Lacazette, Aubameyang also another couple of players that were mismanaged by Arteta. Auba’s goals dry up as soon as he signs that new contract because Arteta lacks the ability to motivate him.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Also Havertz is not a limited player and he isn’t one just because you don’t have the strength of personality to row back from claims you made a year ago. Is he as technically gifted as some of the other players in the squad ? No but really all what’s been proved with Havertz is what an absolute bin fire of a club Chelsea is. They’ve been lucky in games, West Ham’s sepaku defending, Bournemouth inability to finish their chances.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Shouldn't top pros, let alone the highest paid officials in an organisation, take some responsibility for motivating themselves? I was as angry as anyone with the way Auba and Laca left...but Auba failed at Barca and hasn't recovered form while Laca only had one good season at Lyon....so it turns out our annoying uncaring coach had a bit of a point!

Anyway, regarding me not knowing what I am talking about, I can't really get offended with your judgement seeing as it comes up with weird stuff like this:


I just think Martinelli is an exceptional player both in terms of pace and technique..... I think the potential is there for him to be better than Saka, as for me as good as Saka is…he’s a little one dimensional

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Also Havertz is not a limited player and he isn’t one just because you don’t have the strength of personality to row back from claims you made a year ago. Is he as technically gifted as some of the other players in the squad ? No but really all what’s been proved with Havertz is what an absolute bin fire of a club Chelsea is. They’ve been lucky in games, West Ham’s sepaku defending, Bournemouth inability to finish their chances.

Havertz is a limited player technically and all serious football fans know this.

But it is funny to see you talking about "rowing back claims" after it took Letters the better part of a year to get you to stop trolling our manager's marital and mental health based on snippets from a tv show :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Except he didn’t fail at Barcelona, 13 goals in 23 games. They moved him on to free up their wage bill for Lewandowski

The only club he didn’t succeed at was Chelsea and that falls under my previous statement of the club being a bin fire

And I absolutely stand by that statement you’ve quoted. Your disdain for Martinelli is basically in my view as misguided as your disdain for Havertz

[HCZ_Reborn]

Havertz is a limited player technically and all serious football fans know this.

But it is funny to see you talking about "rowing back claims" after it took Letters the best part of a year to get you to stop trolling our manager's marital and mental health based on snippets from a tv show :lol:

Are you a sock puppet account for Mac76..you both have that curious habit of trying to pass off obscurantist opinions as common knowledge

Nope I still stand by what I said about Arteta as well, someone in my view who is on the spectrum. Basically Amazon would have had to have edited their footage to make Arteta look more strange than he actually is, and when you look at the thrust of the narrative…the intent was to paint him in a positive light. And unfortunately for Arteta you have someone who has poor eye contact with players (not just players but family members), defensive and closed body language and someone who is insular and introverted (nothing wrong with being introverted, it’s possibly just not a characteristic conducive to successful man management)

And if you think that’s more embarassing than your assertion that Mudryk was bought as a replacement for Martinelli when at the time he was our best player on form, dunno what to tell you…..

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

And there goes my point on you lecturing anyone about "rowing back", you never do, even when faced with all the logical reasons why you should. You are like our wannabe mini Trump here, the difference is I am not sure you'd get recognised on your own street corner!

Anyway, like I said your judgement means very little to me in any sphere. Most of the time you pester posters like a six year old and then sulk and double down on the most basic things like being corrected on using racial epithets.

Don't get upset, but I can't really take you seriously.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Don't get upset, but I can't really take you seriously.

Well that’s ok, I’ve never taken you seriously, from your opining that our transfer policy isn’t more like Chelsea and whinging over how we go about Transfers…and your taking exception to my comparing you to a little girl

That being the case, me expecting you to take me seriously would be unreasonable. Not only that but given that you are a complete clown to my mind, you taking me seriously would be undesirable

And given that couldnt even get you to admit that we weren’t lowballing on offers to other clubs, after we managed to outbid City on Rice…I admire the complete blithe lack of self reflection in accusing me of intransigence

I also dont try and give my opinions undue authority by making the empty claim that everyone else thinks the same, it’s an argument people make when they have nothing of substance to say. Baseless assertions aren’t logical reasons no matter what you claim to the contrary.

[HCZ_Reborn]

But I tell you what, I’ll give you a chance

Tell me why my opinion on Martinelli isn’t just one you disagree with but is wrong. Same with Havertz. Try to avoid the “everyone who understands anything about football” it’s empty filler. And leaves me to conclude that you don’t have an argument.

At least Mac76 as interminable as he is, actually shows the ability to learn and didn’t try and parse his opinions as indisputable fact.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

:lol:

Ok, let's test and see if you can resist the temptation to double down disregarding plain logic. You said:



And if you think that’s more embarassing than your assertion that Mudryk was bought as a replacement for Martinelli when at the time he was our best player on form, dunno what to tell you…..

Now lets see. We offered £80m+ for Mudryk, that's a fact.

So please tell me what position he usually plays? (that's also a fact, but lets see what you conjure)

Secondly, do you think Arteta would offer that much for a player and not start him? (you can give your opinion here)

Fingers crossed.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

But I tell you what, I’ll give you a chance

Tell me why my opinion on Martinelli isn’t just one you disagree with but is wrong. Same with Havertz. Try to avoid the “everyone who understands anything about football” it’s empty filler. And leaves me to conclude that you don’t have an argument.

At least Mac76 as interminable as he is, actually shows the ability to learn and didn’t try and parse his opinions as indisputable fact.

Ahh didn't see this earlier.

Responding......

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway before IQ of 21’s needless diversion, i was about to say that according to Arteta both White and Timber will be in the squad tomorrow.

The serious injury Arteta alluded to appeared to be Raya…and given he’s not ruled him out even for tomorrows game, I suspect the worst we are looking at is him being out till after the October internationals. Would prefer to have him than not for PSG, but the other two games I'm not so concerned.

Hopefully should see Merino feature from the bench by the time we play Shatkah. Enough to maybe play some part against the helpful trilogy of games against Liverpool, Newcastle and Chelsea

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol:

Ok, let's test and see if you can resist the temptation to double down disregarding plain logic. You said:



Now lets see. We offered £80m+ for Mudryk, that's a fact.

So please tell me what position he usually plays? (that's also a fact, but lets see what you conjure)

Secondly, do you think Arteta would offer that much for a player and not start him? (you can give your opinion here)

Fingers crossed.

He didn’t. That’s the point, the 80 million was more than we wanted to pay?. And then ended up buying Trossard as a squad player for much cheaper. Suggests to me that we were looking to bolster the squad rather than replace one of our best players at the time. Wouldn’t logic suggest that a desire to replace Martinelli would have made the 80 million worth paying??, after all it’s less than what we offered Brighton for Caicedo and what we paid West Ham for Rice

Again, i will have to remind you that calling something logical doesn’t make it so. Nor does changing the past to fit in with a current view

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

But I tell you what, I’ll give you a chance

Tell me why my opinion on Martinelli isn’t just one you disagree with but is wrong. Same with Havertz. Try to avoid the “everyone who understands anything about football” it’s empty filler. And leaves me to conclude that you don’t have an argument.

At least Mac76 as interminable as he is, actually shows the ability to learn and didn’t try and parse his opinions as indisputable fact.

Your opinion on Martinelli is what it is, an opinion. You could be right, but IMO you are likely wrong.

Crazier things have happened in football than him suddenly being better than Saka. On this forum, if you had been here long enough, you would have been around when I wrote off players like Song and Flamini and said over and over again they would never amount to anything. Guess what, I was pretty pleased to be wrong and they easily became my favourites. I have got no problem in eating my words as long as its a plus for Arsenal.

Now as for Havertz, technique is a bit subjective, but usually most serious football fans tend to come to a consensus and agree on things like Messi is more technically gifted than Ronaldo and Bergkamp was one of the most gifted players we ever witnessed in Arsenal etc.

Now note, there are no stats that actually prove any of the two previous assertions but there is a general silent consensus on this.

So going back to Havertz, would you consider a player technically gifted if stats cannot even support simple things like successful dribbles, take ons or even successful pass%. Didn't we just witness him achieve the unholy record of not being able to complete one pass in 90 mins in the EPL? Is their anyone of our current attacking players who you would say Havertz is more technically gifted than?

IMO there are some arguments that are just needless and no need to pester on. But obviously you are built differently.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I see you’ve talked yourself down a bit

Of course consensus exists in football, but to assert its existence to give your opinion more gravity is a little daft.

There is no consensus that Havertz is technically lacking (and using the stats from the Man City game is the last refuge of the scoundrel) and the stats show that he’s a decent dribbler, can hold the ball up well, good passing and can read the game well. Is he the most technically accomplished player in the team ? No but neither do I think the gap is enormous either. Bergkamp as you say was one of our greatest technical players, after that it was probably Mesut Ozil…I’m not sure any of our current squad are at their level.

But with much in life it’s all relative

Also I should reiterate that I said that Martinelli has the potential to be better than Saka, it’s reasonable to say that thus far he hasn’t come close to that potential (and perhaps he never will). My personal view is that although Martinelli is primarily right footed he’s more comfortable shifting to his left than Saka is shifting onto his right. I also think both in terms of technique and strength he’s better at beating his full back than Saka and I think he has more raw explosive pace.

Saka is more consistent, puts in more work and clearly has a stronger mentality. At the risk of agreeing with Mac76, he also contributes more to the team from a defensive perspective.

[Mac76]

Seeing as my name has been mentioned a few times here...

I think we were very close to buying Mudryk which, whether he's good or not, would have been a disaster as as world without all of Trossard, Jorg and Kiwior would have seen us fall away very significantly last season and be nowhere near the title by the last day

I think it was a big error of judgement but this summer seems to show they've at least partly learnt from it by bringing in more squad players, plus bringing in some youth players in pre-season, which I think wil really pay off

On Leicester, if we're in good control on 60 mins I'd like to see Nwaneri, Nicholls, MSL given more minutes, lets really fill out our options here

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

He didn’t. That’s the point, the 80 million was more than we wanted to pay?. And then ended up buying Trossard as a squad player for much cheaper. Suggests to me that we were looking to bolster the squad rather than replace one of our best players at the time. Wouldn’t logic suggest that a desire to replace Martinelli would have made the 80 million worth paying??, after all it’s less than what we offered Brighton for Caicedo and what we paid West Ham for Rice

Again, i will have to remind you that calling something logical doesn’t make it so. Nor does changing the past to fit in with a current view

You see why I compare you with Trump, you seem to like bending fact everytime it suits you and disregarding anything that does not fit with your narrative.

We argued this on another thread, I proved to you we offered the exact same money as Chelsea, the only difference was they went the extra mile by having top executives fly over and altering the payment plan. But as usual, you have chosen selective amnesia again.

But for the sake of this argument, lets even agree that we offered less, lets even drop it all the way down to £60m to make you feel better about letting £60m sit on the bench. Here's a list of Arteta's top 5 signings:

1. Rice: €116m
2.Havertz: €75m
3.White: €59m
4 Jesus: €52m
5.Partey: €50m

Besides Jesus, there is none of those guys who got into the team without taking a shirt from a recognised starter.

Your argument is why would Arteta replace his "best" player when he is on a high? But that is a silly argument that chooses to disregard history as he has done that over and over again. I mean this is a coach who replaced Ramsdale, who was chosen in the PFA team and almost equalled our best defensive record!

If Arteta sees he can improve the team, he is ruthless, he will do it. The thing is that even with Trossard, we are stil being linked with wingers that predominantly play on the left because its clear that Arteta is unhappy with something. However note that since the emergence of Saka we have not been linked seriously with any world class winger that mainly operates on the right. If I am wrong, please do tell

So, is it logical for me to assert that Mudryk would have started over Martinelli or should I inhabit your La La Land that ignores precedent and the value of money and just accept that Arteta has been pleased with Martinelli and has seen no reason to upgrade him, all because you say so.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Seeing as my name has been mentioned a few times here...

I think we were very close to buying Mudryk which, whether he's good or not, would have been a disaster as as world without all of Trossard, Jorg and Kiwior would have seen us fall away very significantly last season and be nowhere near the title by the last day

I think it was a big error of judgement but this summer seems to show they've at least partly learnt from it by bringing in more squad players, plus bringing in some youth players in pre-season, which I think wil really pay off

On Leicester, if we're in good control on 60 mins I'd like to see Nwaneri, Nicholls, MSL given more minutes, lets really fill out our options here

Mac, clearly now with hindsight (and obviously the bargain that was Trossard) its clear that we got the better of that deal.

The only reason this is being brought up is to point out that Martnelli's form is a problem that has been identified and is yet to be solved...no matter how badly some people on here want to lie down with him and have his babies.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Mac, clearly now with hindsight (and obviously the bargain that was Trossard) its clear that we got the better of that deal.

The only reason this is being brought up is to point out that Martnelli's form is a problem that has been identified and is yet to be solved...no matter how badly some people on here want to lie down with him and have his babies.

See now you get it, for all the griping and moaning and wailing when I pointed out that you acted like a little girl. You realise there’s no harm done by the odd insulting remark, it’s fun.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sorry but no we didn’t match Chelsea’s offer for Mudryk, neither in the structure of payments nor in the actual amount we offered.

Mudryk had been identified as a top talent by our scouts and we wanted to use the tenuous situation Shatkah Donetsk was in, in order to get our hands on a player with great potential.


What you’re trying to do is take your current opinion on Martinelli (which like most of your footballing opinions is best described as querulous, I’ll take this back if it wasn’t you…but weren’t you being ridiculously hysterical about Gabriel last month) and trying to reverse engineer a situation where Arteta being able to foresee this looked to buy Mudryk to replace Martinelli because he thought what he had as a left winger at the time was inadequate. Which was the rationale for signing players like Partey, Rice and most recently of all Calafiori.

[HCZ_Reborn]

RE Gabriel - looking just now, No it wasn’t you, it was Chippy.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Sorry but no we didn’t match Chelsea’s offer for Mudryk, neither in the structure of payments nor in the actual amount we offered.
.........
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again.......

At this point I :tiphat: fair maiden.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again.......

At this point I :tiphat: fair maiden.

Well you’re right, trying to point out facts constantly to an imbecile is a bit pig headed of me :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Seeing as my name has been mentioned a few times here...

I think we were very close to buying Mudryk which, whether he's good or not, would have been a disaster as as world without all of Trossard, Jorg and Kiwior would have seen us fall away very significantly last season and be nowhere near the title by the last day

I think it was a big error of judgement but this summer seems to show they've at least partly learnt from it by bringing in more squad players, plus bringing in some youth players in pre-season, which I think wil really pay off

On Leicester, if we're in good control on 60 mins I'd like to see Nwaneri, Nicholls, MSL given more minutes, lets really fill out our options here

With Beetlejuice you have to say his name three times before he appears

Or is that the Kandyman?


I honestly would have no problem starting Nwaneri, but that said I equally would be content to see him come on with a third of the match to go (although I find unless we are chasing a goal, we’ve usually shut up shop by that time)

Leicester have scored in every game this season, so I think whilst they will probably sit deep, they’ll also make the odd foray forward. They scored twice against Palace if I recall

Out of the promoted sides they do look like they are the most likely to stay up. Don’t think Ipswich will get the goals they need, and I think Southampton are hopeless.

[Mac76]

Mac, clearly now with hindsight (and obviously the bargain that was Trossard) its clear that we got the better of that deal.

The only reason this is being brought up is to point out that Martnelli's form is a problem that has been identified and is yet to be solved...no matter how badly some people on here want to lie down with him and have his babies.

Well hindsight for some, it was never clear to me.why.we were blowing all our budget on one player when the squad.was short in a number of areas

[Marc Overmars]

Would like to see Sterling in this ahead of Martinelli. Not sure if you’ll get the same work ethic but I imagine he would be a lot more decisive in the final third.

[Mac76]

Would like to see Sterling in this ahead of Martinelli. Not sure if you’ll get the same work ethic but I imagine he would be a lot more decisive in the final third.

I think Sterling was putting a lot of effort in v Bolton so wouldn't be worried about that and I think he has good instincts in terms of breaking into the box, his goal v Bolton was a classic poacher's effort