Do you still want Wenger as Arsenal manager?

[Joker]

I know there was a thread at the end of last season, and some people were uncertain how to vote, preferring to wait to see how the summer panned out before making a judgement. Well, this summer has turned out to be one of the worst in recent memory in terms of the business we've done, and it has only strengthened my belief that Wenger is definitely NOT the right manager to lead our club forward, because he is stuck in his old ways and old dogmas, and is unwilling to see that he needs to adapt and change to meet the challenges posed by teams that have strengthened significantly in the transfer window. He's now become a danger to the club, and unless we replace him ASAP, we'll continue to slide down the table, our status as a top club will be diminished and therefore fewer high quality players will want to join, and a viscous cycle will develop.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14606268.stm

bring back graham

might have the same effect kenny had on liverpool

plus our problems are basic defensive and footballing mistakes across the pitch. something graham nailed when he was in charge.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Oh dear.

[Joker]

I think Graham's past it IMO, but we definitely need change.

[Fats]

Stick a fork in!!!!!

[Özim]

Stick a fork in!!!!!
No, his days are numbered for me. Tactically inept and refusing to adapt and unwilling to change.

It's a shame but he's become too stubborn for his and our own good.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I know there was a thread at the end of last season, and some people were uncertain how to vote, preferring to wait to see how the summer panned out before making a judgement. Well, this summer has turned out to be one of the worst in recent memory in terms of the business we've done, and it has only strengthened my belief that Wenger is definitely NOT the right manager to lead our club forward, because he is stuck in his old ways and old dogmas, and is unwilling to see that he needs to adapt and change to meet the challenges posed by teams that have strengthened significantly in the transfer window. He's now become a danger to the club, and unless we replace him ASAP, we'll continue to slide down the table, our status as a top club will be diminished and therefore fewer high quality players will want to join, and a viscous cycle will develop.

Wheather we want him or not is irrelevant tbh, he will go when he wants to go no sooner or no less.

[RomfordPele]

Maybe I slightly misunderstood the question, but I voted yes - for the rest of this season only.

Wenger leaving now, just ten days before transfer window closes, would be disastrous.

He got us into this mess, he needs to get us out of it.

[Özim]

Maybe I slightly misunderstood the question, but I voted yes - for the rest of this season only.

Wenger leaving now, just ten days before transfer window closes, would be disastrous.

He got us into this mess, he needs to get us out of it.
I think it would be unfair on a new manager right now, coming in and having no time or even no chance to bring in players he wants initially.

So yes he'd be trying to fix Wenger's mess without being able to bring in the players he thinks might help.

[Daniele]

no. it pains me to say so as I rate top the man but I said that he needed to turn thing round in the summer which he didn't. he has to go.

[Darth Vela]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14606268.stm

bring back graham

might have the same effect kenny had on liverpool

plus our problems are basic defensive and footballing mistakes across the pitch. something graham nailed when he was in charge.

The goals scored column begs to differ, the problem is a lack of creativity in midfield and lack of form/non-shitness in our forwards.

Anyway, in answer to the OP, if we don't reinforce between now and the end of the transfer window then someone has to go and something has to change, if it's Wenger refusing to invest then he should go as there's a definite need for experience in midfield and a bit more cutting edge up top.

[Grebbo]

The only people wanting Wenger in charge must be Spurs fans.

[-Xs-]

Nope

We weren't good enough last season

He had a summer to sort it

He didnt, and the result is that we now have a weaker squad than last season, which was a team which failed spectacularly

It's pretty bleak at the moment

[Niall_Quinn]

I voted yes. Because we are Arsenal fans and we are allowed to criticise the club, the manager, the players and anything we want related to Arsenal. Because we're part of it. But when some outside cunt starts taking the piss out of our club or manager they can fuck off and die really. I'd rather see us relegated than watch the media gorge themselves in this feeding frenzy they are trying to whip up with Wenger as the main course. And do you know how they are trying to excuse their behaviour? They're saying all they are doing is reflecting the feelings of the fans. So I won't be one of those fans and I don't think any other Arsenal fan should be either. We're under attack now, we don't disintegrate or run away, we stick together and stick two fingers up and them. Wenger, for all his current faults, has done too much for this club to deserve being ripped apart by the media and served up to them on a platter by the fans.

Where's that shit Kroenke? Safe four thousand miles away. If he "owns" this club he'd better get his arse over here and show that he owns it.

[AKBapologist]

I voted yes. Because we are Arsenal fans and we are allowed to criticise the club, the manager, the players and anything we want related to Arsenal. Because we're part of it. But when some outside cunt starts taking the piss out of our club or manager they can fuck off and die really. I'd rather see us relegated than watch the media gorge themselves in this feeding frenzy they are trying to whip up with Wenger as the main course. And do you know how they are trying to excuse their behaviour? They're saying all they are doing is reflecting the feelings of the fans. So I won't be one of those fans and I don't think any other Arsenal fan should be either. We're under attack now, we don't disintegrate or run away, we stick together and stick two fingers up and them. Wenger, for all his current faults, has done too much for this club to deserve being ripped apart by the media and served up to them on a platter by the fans.

Where's that shit Kroenke? Safe four thousand miles away. If he "owns" this club he'd better get his arse over here and show that he owns it.
What the hell have you done to Niall Quinn?

[AKBapologist]

And if by the end of the transfer, we have a squad that's no stronger, not only will I want AW out, I'd be demanding the heads of Glazidis and Kronke too.

[Fats]

And if by the end of the transfer, we have a squad that's no stronger, not only will I want AW out, I'd be demanding the heads of Glazidis and Kronke too.

oooooooooh get her !!

[Niall_Quinn]

What the hell have you done to Niall Quinn?

No, I'm not going to watch those twats on Sunday Supplement licking their lips in anticipation at what's to come and then jump onside with them. I might hate what's going on at Arsenal (and I do) but when compared to how much I hate the mainstream media and the runts that run around it calling themselves journalists I'll take the pain. Summer's over, we fucked up as a club and we'll pay a price for that. It's Wenger's fault but not his fault alone. I can't stand the sight of a pack converging on one victim. Whether it be those courageous thugs on the street who hunt in numbers or rotten to the core mainstream whores who hide behind the notion of being mere observers relaying the "news". I won't stand with cowards against a man of principle, even when that man is wrong, which I believe he is. He's wrong but he's not a filthy journalist at least. Besides, we're into the season now, we have a huge game coming up midweek, last thing we need is to commit suicide by kicking out the manager. So there's a practicality to go with the principle. We go with what we've got and we make the best of it. Yesterday there were signs the players are prepared to fight even though we are short of numbers and we fight against the odds. Fuck it, if the players can throw their weight behind Wenger one more time then I figure so can we as fans. We have some Italians to shoot down on Wednesday so let's go and do that.

[Letters]

I voted yes. Because we are Arsenal fans and we are allowed to criticise the club, the manager, the players and anything we want related to Arsenal. Because we're part of it. But when some outside cunt starts taking the piss out of our club or manager they can fuck off and die really. I'd rather see us relegated than watch the media gorge themselves in this feeding frenzy they are trying to whip up with Wenger as the main course. And do you know how they are trying to excuse their behaviour? They're saying all they are doing is reflecting the feelings of the fans. So I won't be one of those fans and I don't think any other Arsenal fan should be either. We're under attack now, we don't disintegrate or run away, we stick together and stick two fingers up and them. Wenger, for all his current faults, has done too much for this club to deserve being ripped apart by the media and served up to them on a platter by the fans.

Where's that shit Kroenke? Safe four thousand miles away. If he "owns" this club he'd better get his arse over here and show that he owns it.

:hug: :loveblush:

No homo.

[gunsofashburtongrove]

I voted yes. Because we are Arsenal fans and we are allowed to criticise the club, the manager, the players and anything we want related to Arsenal. Because we're part of it. But when some outside cunt starts taking the piss out of our club or manager they can fuck off and die really. I'd rather see us relegated than watch the media gorge themselves in this feeding frenzy they are trying to whip up with Wenger as the main course. And do you know how they are trying to excuse their behaviour? They're saying all they are doing is reflecting the feelings of the fans. So I won't be one of those fans and I don't think any other Arsenal fan should be either. We're under attack now, we don't disintegrate or run away, we stick together and stick two fingers up and them. Wenger, for all his current faults, has done too much for this club to deserve being ripped apart by the media and served up to them on a platter by the fans.

Where's that shit Kroenke? Safe four thousand miles away. If he "owns" this club he'd better get his arse over here and show that he owns it.
That's like a true fan :gp:

[Kano]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14606268.stm

bring back graham

might have the same effect kenny had on liverpool

plus our problems are basic defensive and footballing mistakes across the pitch. something graham nailed when he was in charge.

if a thief is the best we could muster, then no thanks

[AKBapologist]

No, I'm not going to watch those twats on Sunday Supplement licking their lips in anticipation at what's to come and then jump onside with them. I might hate what's going on at Arsenal (and I do) but when compared to how much I hate the mainstream media and the runts that run around it calling themselves journalists I'll take the pain. Summer's over, we fucked up as a club and we'll pay a price for that. It's Wenger's fault but not his fault alone. I can't stand the sight of a pack converging on one victim. Whether it be those courageous thugs on the street who hunt in numbers or rotten to the core mainstream whores who hide behind the notion of being mere observers relaying the "news". I won't stand with cowards against a man of principle, even when that man is wrong, which I believe he is. He's wrong but he's not a filthy journalist at least. Besides, we're into the season now, we have a huge game coming up midweek, last thing we need is to commit suicide by kicking out the manager. So there's a practicality to go with the principle. We go with what we've got and we make the best of it. Yesterday there were signs the players are prepared to fight even though we are short of numbers and we fight against the odds. Fuck it, if the players can throw their weight behind Wenger one more time then I figure so can we as fans. We have some Italians to shoot down on Wednesday so let's go and do that.
I kinda of agree, yesterday, and more so on Wednesday, there was a sense of the players we had left, really giving it everything. I rate AW more as a coach than anyone else here, he can drill a team to defend as well as he can to attack, he gets the best from players who else where would fail to shine now matter how many trophies they win and he builds a relationship with players stronger than I've seen anywhere else barring United.

HOWEVER.

I am completely baffled by this summer, I'm not naive enough to believe it's all Wengers fault but Christ, if he can't do what clearly needed to be done or explain why he can't/hasn't, when not just journo's, but ex-players, managers, and fans know what the problems are, then I can't accept having him as our manager even though I believe only 3-4 in the world are better and probably 1 would be suitable running our club.

Not that he runs the club in isolation and I would want first and foremost for those running the club to explain it'self to the fans. Two billionaire owners, premium tickets, economy class squad?? WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU PLAYING AT?

[Letters]

Something is going badly wrong at the club right now.
It's naive to think that is ALL down to Wenger and that if we replace him everything will be rosy again.
That said things like the defensive frailty and mental weakness are down to him and there are managers who would sort that out.
I'm conflicted.

We'll lose to Utd next week and people on here will wet their pants again but I was somewhat heartened by yesterday's performance if not result. The players out there showed heart and we won't be playing sides as good as Liverpool every week. If they keep playing like that we'll do OK this season.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

first year in 25 years that theres no dein or fizzman on the board, which may be part of the problem. seems like the current board have no clue on what to do/how to negotiate anything.

also while fergies had different people help him by his side over the years such as mclaren, querioz or kidd, we've only had pat rice there. we need fresh ideas and a helping hand, someone to take the pressure off wenger. pat rice seems like a yes man who happily bums wenger.

[Xhaka Can’t]

if a thief is the best we could muster, then no thanks

GG was a great servant to this Club. As a player and as a Manager.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Pat Rice was and is a Greg servant to the Club.

[Kano]

GG was a great servant to this Club. As a player and as a Manager.

look i loved gg and his teams as that was not too long after i became a fan but lost complete respect after what he was caught for. of course loads of managers were at it but the point is he was one of them and got caught. that was when our club was a laughing stock.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Define OK, OK we probably won't be relegated, but won't finish in the top four if we look at fixtures like United and Liverpool as unwinnable.




Something is going badly wrong at the club right now.
It's naive to think that is ALL down to Wenger and that if we replace him everything will be rosy again.
That said things like the defensive frailty and mental weakness are down to him and there are managers who would sort that out.
I'm conflicted.

We'll lose to Utd next week and people on here will wet their pants again but I was somewhat heartened by yesterday's performance if not result. The players out there showed heart and we won't be playing sides as good as Liverpool every week. If they keep playing like that we'll do OK this season.

[alexander]

I do still want him, because he is a good manager. I really believe he is no fucking retard, and knows our problems. I believe the board is to blame, it must be. The media know the problems, we know the problems, the players have mentioned it. He is surely not so mental that he cant see it.

Just need to buy in some experience into the squad. We cant rely on kids and mongs like diaby and squalichi, it just cant be done.

[alexander]

I was talking to my boss, an Ipswich fan, so he has been through some managers. He reckons once the majority of fans turn against the manager, its almost imposible to win them back. Only winning cups/leagues really turns them around. For this reason im pretty worried about this whole situation.

[Fats]

if a thief is the best we could muster, then no thanks

but is a con man better than a theif?

[Letters]

Define OK, OK we probably won't be relegated, but won't finish in the top four if we look at fixtures like United and Liverpool as unwinnable.

I didn't see Liverpool as unwinnable. I do see Utd at Old Trafford as pretty much unwinnable and top 4 is going to be a real battle this year if we don't sign some quality. Still think we'll finish top 6 though. Wouldn't rule out top 4, long way to go yet.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

the point i am making is that it shouldn't be unwinnable, we shouldn't be looking at any premier league fixture and thinking we are definitely going to lose this, simply top four should be a disappointment and top six should be unthinkable.

I doubt any of us thought we had no chance of winning when we went to Old Trafford last December, and we had injuries then (how else would have szczesny got his first team place).....

[Marc Overmars]

Ask me again after the next 10 days or so. If he does the unthinkable and signs no one then it would be very, very hard to support his actions.

[Özim]

look i loved gg and his teams as that was not too long after i became a fan but lost complete respect after what he was caught for. of course loads of managers were at it but the point is he was one of them and got caught. that was when our club was a laughing stock.
We were never a laughing stock because of this, he made a mistake and paid for it. Personally don't think it was that bad.

If anything our club is more of a laughing stock right now, due to all the troubles.

Wenger has got loads of respect based on what he achieved and rightly so, but Graham achieved a lot too, we won a fair few trophies under him and he laid the foundations for Wenger's early successes. He doesn't get enought credit for the job he did, whilst also spending next to nothing incidentally.

[Boss]

Was past it a couple years ago.

Should have gone then and has only deteriorated much further since then so the answer remains the same, he needs to gtfo.

[selassie]

If he ambles on and nobody of note or substantial quality is brought in over the next 10 days then I would like him to step down.

Whilst I don't want to shoulder Wenger with all of the blame I do think he is the major decision maker in regards to the technical aspects of the team, essentially he is the one who chooses who to buy with the funds he has available. If we were that broke we wouldn't have splashed out close to 15million on a 17 year old prospect, one who is not likely to play a major role in the team for quite some time.

For me Wenger has 10 days to save our season.

[Japan Shaking All Over]

somebody mentioned the other day that the lack of spending and lumping together of funds is for any new manager that is needed to be brought in........

that would make sense but surely that is the same as giving Wenger absolutely no chance from the off

do hails back thow Wenger became our manager, Rioch kind of got shafted with the only thing left to his credit was he was allowed to be in charge when King Denis signed

[Letters]

the point i am making is that it shouldn't be unwinnable, we shouldn't be looking at any premier league fixture and thinking we are definitely going to lose this, simply top four should be a disappointment and top six should be unthinkable.

I doubt any of us thought we had no chance of winning when we went to Old Trafford last December, and we had injuries then (how else would have szczesny got his first team place).....

You're right of course and in the days when we were title contenders then no fixture was unwinnable and I would actively expect us to go there and do no worse than draw. Sadly those days are behind us, for now at least, but I don't see a defeat at Old Trafford as much of an indication as to how we'll do this year. Let's see where we are by Christmas.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

the point being that we should be title contenders, there is no reason why we are going backwards....financially we are not in Everton's predicament so if we are no longer able to challenge for honours, it's the fault of the manager. And by that logic, whilst he is still here things won't improve....and things MAY not improve if we replace him, but it's better to take the risk instead of giving this deluded vainglorious man more time to take us further backwards.

[Globalgunner]

I have been turned off Wenger at least 4 seasons ago watching the same seasonal collapse over and over again. It was painful watching him mould the team into a facsimile of himself, with players who are fragile and brittle, afraid of a tackle, tactically inept, indisciplined and indirect, precious and overpaid. He hass cossetted and coddled inadequates like Diaby and Denilson, Rosicky and Bendtner. We have a wage bill that should reflect high standards but instead you have players like Bentner who probably wont leave in the end because no one can match his probable 60k pw. Invalids like Rosicky who hasnt scored a goal in more than a year but no one will touch will a barge pole ( a man who missed a CL saving opportunity from 6 inches outside the goaline). We play an indirect football that forbids shooting from outside the box (think back, when last did you see a screamer go in from one of ours, maybe only Sagna from some time last season), Wenger is fixated with recreating the Barca miracle but with 2nd rate players, the top players can see through this. 2 seasons ago he managed top persuade RVP to stay with the promise of improvements to the team, he then bought Sylvester (yellow bald bird). last season he persuauded Fabregas with the same false promise (then bought Squillaci) . This man has over 5 years chipped away at the very foundations of what made him successfull with an illusion as his dogma.
He will be the end of us if we allow him to continue in his delusions. He has become a dictator within the club but in the same way as Mussolini....with probably the same ending. (dictators are not all bad (Fergie) but only if they can show that they know what they are doing)
He should be paid off the remaining year of his contract and Frank Rijkaard bought out of whatever contract he has just signed. This season is probably a bust now but a new man with Rijkaards standing will see us able to attract the kind of players that will revive the club down the line. We should not forget that Wenger is now what, 62?
Finally I cannot understand the sort of supporter who rains abuse at every poster he disgarees with. After the Emirates cup i wrote that Walcott was not good enough and some microbe immediately jumped down my throat claiming i was judging him on the basis of one game. ONE GAME?. sheesh. I didnt bother replying such as you end up arguing with someone who gets his rocks off by masquerading as a keyboard slugger. Maybe 12 yrs old or 70 but blind to the obvous, only intent on insults. The bottom line is this is a team that is badly led, badly coached and above all badly managed. without change there will be no change.

[AKBapologist]

Take with a pinch of salt but it's interesting if true...
http://www.thefootballnetwork.net/main/s378/st170548.htm?

By Eduardo
August 21 2011
According to an unnamed source Arsene Wenger is at loggerheads with the Board over how the transfer budget should be spent. I am not at liberty to name that source, but I believe the information I received explains the current impasse at Arsenal. Before I explain what the differences between them are, let me make it clear that there is a substantial transfer budget that has to not only cover transfer fees but wages of incoming players and contract improvements of those already here.
The Board and Wenger are both in agreement that , to avoid the situation the club has encountered with Clichy and Nasri this summer, star men like Van Persie and Vermaelen and others with only two years left on their contract need to be offered new long term contracts with big pay rises.



And this is where the first difference of opinion has arisen between manager and club, The Board believe that offering to rise a players wage from £60K - £70K a week to £90K or £100K is more than enough, but Wenger believes that this is not enough, when City, Utd and Chelsea are paying their best(£180K - £250K), and that if we want to keep our best players we have to go to the next level, he wants the pay scale risen to £150K for our best.



This brings us neatly on to the next bone of contention between manager and club, the calibre of signing we can make. Both Wenger and the Board agree that to even maintain a top four spot, let alone win the title, several new signings are required.



The Board are willing to pay big transfer fees, as is Wenger (he is not lying when he says he would pay £30M - £40M), it is also where the difference of opinion comes. The Board would willingly meet the transfer fee, but will not meet the sort of wage demands a £30M signings asks for.



Wenger had a four pronged squad plan this summer,



Keep our best players
Buy in top level players to improve the team
Sign young players with big potential
Promote from within


Wenger has done parts 3 and 4. He wanted to do part 1 and 2 by Nasri being offered a massive contract so he would stay, and he hoped to persuade Cesc to stay one more year, with not only a new contract but with the calibre of player he signed. Wenger wanted Mata and Benzema, he still wants Hazzard, wages more than anything else are ruling out Mata and Benzema.



The Board had no problem meeting the Juan Mata transfer fee, but once Chelsea let it be known to his agents what they would offer, it blew Arsenal’s contract offer out of the water. We ran into the same situation with Jones and Utd.



People ask why have Arsenal not signed Cahill, Dann or Samba etc, well its simple really, Wenger wants better players, the Board want him to sign the above level of player, as it sits with their wage scale, Arsene wants the next level up, a Subotic, a Hummells, but they come with not only high transfer fees but with massive wage demands.

Wenger would rather not sign a player at all, than sign someone for a big fee who he considers no better than what we have, the board have asked him to reconsider this stance, and that is why Cahill and Dann have been scouted this late in the window, Arsene sees them as not as good as Koscielny, and thinks it is the wrong way to use his budget, he wants better quality for the first 11, the board just want him to make signings to appease the fans.



Wenger had a major discussion with Kroenke and the Board on Members day. He was told in no uncertain terms that Nasri would have to be sold if he did not sign a contract, and between them they came to the decision to let Cesc go for less than his worth. But Wenger fought his corner, and made it clear the sort of player he wants and that our star men have to be given contract that will keep them, as you can not build if every year there is doubts who are staying and who are going. Arsene also reiterated his view that we need top quality players, not just one as good or possibly slightly better, and that these players come at a premium cost and that the club has to go up a level not only on fees but on wages.



Arsene Wenger is a company man, and will not come out with any of this, while under contract, no matter how much flack he takes, and that is why his comments in the media, since the Members day meeting, have been more for the ears of Stan and Ivan than for the fans, he is warning them. He wont’ walk, and it will cost the club dear to sack him, and even more to shut him up if he is sacked, if they thought the deal David Dein struck with Bruce Rioch to keep him quiet was expensive, they will be blown away by what it will take to buy Arsene Wenger’s silence.



Who wins this battle of wills may define not only what happens to Arsenal’s season, but for many seasons to come.

[Power n Glory]

I have no sympathy for the man. You guys are on one if you think the board is to blame. PHW has no problem calling Arsenal fans 'idiots' and then you've this complete arrogance from Wenger telling people that his judgement shouldn't be questioned. Wenger has no problem telling the fans that the booing hasn't helped the Nasri situation and we're partly to blame for him leaving but has never turned on the board and openly questioned their behaviour. Even when PHW disrespects the fans, Gazidis is the man stepping in trying appeal to the fans and choosing his words carefully because he knows without us there is no club. He try's to send out the right message to the fans, you don't get none of that from PHW or Wenger. Just pure arrogance. They have this 'how dare you question my judgement' type attitude. You don't get that from Gazidis. He's knows the situation is tense and because of Wenger's actions, he's having to double back on the things he has said during the AST meeting.

If Wenger was protecting the board, I'd a expect a much more humble approach and man talking as if his hands are tied. I get no sense of that from Wenger. His attitude and PHW's are almost synchronised. Where is the attempt to try and ease the fans fears or even empathise? He's telling people that 'patience is a sign of intelligence'! If you're under pressure and don't agree with what your boss is doing, you side with the people that hold a similar view or at least stay silent and not go all out to insult the people that have supported you for all these years.

Sorry, I don't buy this board hanging Wenger out to try story. Not once has he questioned the boards policies because he agrees with them. We all know we have money to spend and months of speculation he comes put and says he'll spend up to £40m but only for the right type of player. What more do you need?

[Xhaka Can’t]

Just about any Manager that stages a showdown with their Board, ends up getting the sack.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just about any Manager that stages a showdown with their Board, ends up getting the sack.

Depends how much hate we can pour down on the filthy scum in the board room. The nasty vermin that has eaten the club from within. It usually takes an unbelievable amount to shift these types of shit stain. And with Stan hiding out across the ocean it would be even tougher.

[fakeyank]

I didn't see Liverpool as unwinnable. I do see Utd at Old Trafford as pretty much unwinnable and top 4 is going to be a real battle this year if we don't sign some quality. Still think we'll finish top 6 though. Wouldn't rule out top 4, long way to go yet.

From a club challenging for title to being reasonably content with 6th.. AW has fucked us in the ass and for some weird reason, I still see him being defended. I want the cunt out and I'd rather not have a manager at Arsenal than have him.

http://f.imagehost.org/0171/wenger_out.png

[fakeyank]

I have no sympathy for the man. You guys are on one if you think the board is to blame. PHW has no problem calling Arsenal fans 'idiots' and then you've this complete arrogance from Wenger telling people that his judgement shouldn't be questioned. Wenger has no problem telling the fans that the booing hasn't helped the Nasri situation and we're partly to blame for him leaving but has never turned on the board and openly questioned their behaviour. Even when PHW disrespects the fans, Gazidis is the man stepping in trying appeal to the fans and choosing his words carefully because he knows without us there is no club. He try's to send out the right message to the fans, you don't get none of that from PHW or Wenger. Just pure arrogance. They have this 'how dare you question my judgement' type attitude. You don't get that from Gazidis. He's knows the situation is tense and because of Wenger's actions, he's having to double back on the things he has said during the AST meeting.

If Wenger was protecting the board, I'd a expect a much more humble approach and man talking as if his hands are tied. I get no sense of that from Wenger. His attitude and PHW's are almost synchronised. Where is the attempt to try and ease the fans fears or even empathise? He's telling people that 'patience is a sign of intelligence'! If you're under pressure and don't agree with what your boss is doing, you side with the people that hold a similar view or at least stay silent and not go all out to insult the people that have supported you for all these years.

Sorry, I don't buy this board hanging Wenger out to try story. Not once has he questioned the boards policies because he agrees with them. We all know we have money to spend and months of speculation he comes put and says he'll spend up to £40m but only for the right type of player. What more do you need?

:gp:

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I have been turned off Wenger at least 4 seasons ago watching the same seasonal collapse over and over again. It was painful watching him mould the team into a facsimile of himself, with players who are fragile and brittle, afraid of a tackle, tactically inept, indisciplined and indirect, precious and overpaid. He hass cossetted and coddled inadequates like Diaby and Denilson, Rosicky and Bendtner. We have a wage bill that should reflect high standards but instead you have players like Bentner who probably wont leave in the end because no one can match his probable 60k pw. Invalids like Rosicky who hasnt scored a goal in more than a year but no one will touch will a barge pole ( a man who missed a CL saving opportunity from 6 inches outside the goaline). We play an indirect football that forbids shooting from outside the box (think back, when last did you see a screamer go in from one of ours, maybe only Sagna from some time last season), Wenger is fixated with recreating the Barca miracle but with 2nd rate players, the top players can see through this. 2 seasons ago he managed top persuade RVP to stay with the promise of improvements to the team, he then bought Sylvester (yellow bald bird). last season he persuauded Fabregas with the same false promise (then bought Squillaci) . This man has over 5 years chipped away at the very foundations of what made him successfull with an illusion as his dogma.
He will be the end of us if we allow him to continue in his delusions. He has become a dictator within the club but in the same way as Mussolini....with probably the same ending. (dictators are not all bad (Fergie) but only if they can show that they know what they are doing)
He should be paid off the remaining year of his contract and Frank Rijkaard bought out of whatever contract he has just signed. This season is probably a bust now but a new man with Rijkaards standing will see us able to attract the kind of players that will revive the club down the line. We should not forget that Wenger is now what, 62?
Finally I cannot understand the sort of supporter who rains abuse at every poster he disgarees with. After the Emirates cup i wrote that Walcott was not good enough and some microbe immediately jumped down my throat claiming i was judging him on the basis of one game. ONE GAME?. sheesh. I didnt bother replying such as you end up arguing with someone who gets his rocks off by masquerading as a keyboard slugger. Maybe 12 yrs old or 70 but blind to the obvous, only intent on insults. The bottom line is this is a team that is badly led, badly coached and above all badly managed. without change there will be no change.

Don't think frank will make much diffrence at this stage tbh, he will only be allowed to give certain wages and if people don't want to take pay cuts we have no chance of signing them.

Any manager that comes in now will have a job on their hands tbh. Even if wenger got sacked on wednesday we still be in the same boat tbh.

[hobson's choice]

Take with a pinch of salt but it's interesting if true...
http://www.thefootballnetwork.net/main/s378/st170548.htm?

If true explains why so many potential deals have been broken off and have taken so long to complete these past couple of years.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I have no sympathy for the man. You guys are on one if you think the board is to blame. PHW has no problem calling Arsenal fans 'idiots' and then you've this complete arrogance from Wenger telling people that his judgement shouldn't be questioned. Wenger has no problem telling the fans that the booing hasn't helped the Nasri situation and we're partly to blame for him leaving but has never turned on the board and openly questioned their behaviour. Even when PHW disrespects the fans, Gazidis is the man stepping in trying appeal to the fans and choosing his words carefully because he knows without us there is no club. He try's to send out the right message to the fans, you don't get none of that from PHW or Wenger. Just pure arrogance. They have this 'how dare you question my judgement' type attitude. You don't get that from Gazidis. He's knows the situation is tense and because of Wenger's actions, he's having to double back on the things he has said during the AST meeting.

If Wenger was protecting the board, I'd a expect a much more humble approach and man talking as if his hands are tied. I get no sense of that from Wenger. His attitude and PHW's are almost synchronised. Where is the attempt to try and ease the fans fears or even empathise? He's telling people that 'patience is a sign of intelligence'! If you're under pressure and don't agree with what your boss is doing, you side with the people that hold a similar view or at least stay silent and not go all out to insult the people that have supported you for all these years.

Sorry, I don't buy this board hanging Wenger out to try story. Not once has he questioned the boards policies because he agrees with them. We all know we have money to spend and months of speculation he comes put and says he'll spend up to £40m but only for the right type of player. What more do you need?

PHW calling the fans idiots has what to do with Wenger did he tell him too?

If he is was angry with the board he will never say it its never been his way has it, what would you want him to do to be humble. His hands are tied to a point tbh.

Do you think he wated to go to Asia with the sqaud, no way that was down to the new board. Do you thinks it was down to him to sell both Cesc and Nasri. He believed they would stay in his mind. his only faults were it should have been resloved sooner and presure should have been put on the board to accept the money quicker.

He is no way blameless is wenger but its not all his fault

[Niall_Quinn]

Hands up the last person who called their boss a cunt and had a job in the morning? I've tried several times and the cunts have always resorted to showing me the door, regardless of who was right, wrong or fucking the maid.

[Power n Glory]

If true explains why so many potential deals have been broken off and have taken so long to complete these past couple of years. If it true, it shows how stupid they all are because our wage bill is too high for such a squad.

[Power n Glory]

Hands up the last person who called their boss a cunt and had a job in the morning? I've tried several times and the cunts have always resorted to showing me the door, regardless of who was right, wrong or fucking the maid.

No, but you don't go to the canteen and slag off your co workers for complaining about low wages and tell them they should be happy because they work for a well run company. Not if you disagree with your boss anyway. You'd be better off keeping your mouth shut and staying diplomatic. You don't have to lie for the bastards.

[AKBapologist]

If it true, it shows how stupid they all are because our wage bill is too high for such a squad.
A club with a 5th highest wage bill coming 4th?

FYI when we were winning stuff we had the highest or 2nd highest wage bills in the league. And all that dross on high wages? They've more or less gone, so I think you've run out of talking points in that regards.

[fakeyank]

IF the board is stiffling AW, why doesnt he quit? He can come out and let the fans know the truth. Whats the point of staying on and ruining his legacy? Its not that he will be short of suitors. Real will get him in a flash as they are not happy with Jose.

However, this board not backing Arsene is bollocks. AW is too stubborn and wants to make project youth a success.. sorry to say, not fucking happening! WENGER OUT!

[AKBapologist]

No, but you don't go to the canteen and slag off your co workers for complaining about low wages and tell them they should be happy because they work for a well run company. Not if you disagree with your boss anyway. You'd be better off keeping your mouth shut and staying diplomatic. You don't have to lie for the bastards.
PnG meltdown in 4... 3... 2...

[fakeyank]

Hands up the last person who called their boss a cunt and had a job in the morning? I've tried several times and the cunts have always resorted to showing me the door, regardless of who was right, wrong or fucking the maid.

You doing cocaine again? Whats wrong with you?

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You doing cocaine again? Whats wrong with you?

I know its scary lol, think i prefered NQ when he was all Wenger's a Cunt lol

[Olivier's xmas twist]

No, but you don't go to the canteen and slag off your co workers for complaining about low wages and tell them they should be happy because they work for a well run company. Not if you disagree with your boss anyway. You'd be better off keeping your mouth shut and staying diplomatic. You don't have to lie for the bastards.

Depends how much you need the job i suppose and how much you feel you owe the bastards tbh.

[Niall_Quinn]

I know its scary lol, think i prefered NQ when he was all Wenger's a Cunt lol

I never once called him that, if you check back.

[Power n Glory]

PHW calling the fans idiots has what to do with Wenger did he tell him too?

If he is was angry with the board he will never say it its never been his way has it, what would you want him to do to be humble. His hands are tied to a point tbh.

Do you think he wated to go to Asia with the sqaud, no way that was down to the new board. Do you thinks it was down to him to sell both Cesc and Nasri. He believed they would stay in his mind. his only faults were it should have been resloved sooner and presure should have been put on the board to accept the money quicker.

He is no way blameless is wenger but its not all his fault

Wenger tells the fans 'patience is a sign of intelligence', PHW calls the fans idiots and says we all should be patient and making out as if this is all about silverware. Connect the dots. If a manager is at logger heads with the board then why come out and say such things about the fans. It doesn't look like a conflict of opinion between the pair. As for the Asia tour, that is Stan's idea.

[Power n Glory]

A club with a 5th highest wage bill coming 4th?

FYI when we were winning stuff we had the highest or 2nd highest wage bills in the league. And all that dross on high wages? They've more or less gone, so I think you've run out of talking points in that regards.

If we had quality players like Bergkamp and Henry playing for us than yes, fair play. But we're paying guys that are nowhere near that standard.

[AKBapologist]

And I guess there's always the fundamental bottom line: if the people in charge aren't able or willing to sack the person supposedly wrecking the club, then there as much to blame as anyone else really. Sick of people like SB and PnG lumping the blame with one man when the owners are ultimately to blame for either poor judgement or weak leadership.

[Power n Glory]

And I guess there's always the fundamental bottom line: if the people in charge aren't able or willing to sack the person supposedly wrecking the club, then there as much to blame as anyone else really. Sick of people like SB and PnG lumping the blame with one man when the owners are ultimately to blame for either poor judgement or weak leadership.

If your sick of it, go take a break. You don't have to be a part of the discussion.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger tells the fans 'patience is a sign of intelligence', PHW calls the fans idiots and says we all should be patient and making out as if this is all about silverware. Connect the dots. If a manager is at logger heads with the board then why come out and say such things about the fans. It doesn't look like a conflict of opinion between the pair. As for the Asia tour, that is Stan's idea.

Saying the fans should be patient all all that silverware stuff is bs for AW, but its nothing to do with someone saying the fans are idiots.

So by your logic then David moyes is a idiot because Bill kenwright called everton fans muppets, so David moyes must be a cunt.

Same with the leeds manager after bates told his fans to shut up and stop moaning.

I

[Niall_Quinn]

No, but you don't go to the canteen and slag off your co workers for complaining about low wages and tell them they should be happy because they work for a well run company. Not if you disagree with your boss anyway. You'd be better off keeping your mouth shut and staying diplomatic. You don't have to lie for the bastards.

All that BS about nobody leaving the club. That was bizarre, unless you put it in the context of Wenger having a pop at the board. Interesting, that article above that talked about Rioch being paid to keep his mouth shut. These Old Etonian twats all velue their public image, even when the truth behind the scenes is less than savoury. Is Wenger permitted in his contract to say anything other than, "Rah, rah, rah!"? I doubt it. Maybe the fans would do better to hold fire and wait to see if any truth breaks the surface. It would be better to direct fire at the most deserving targets. I'm not forgiving Wenger for his stubborn refusal to kick out the dross and correct the major problems but if we're going to have a clearout let's make sure we get all of them, not just the front man. If that's what he is at all. Somehow I don't think he is. I've been suspicious for a couple of weeks now. It's like Wenger is speaking in code, saying things we all know not to be true and make him look ridiculous. Either he's had a breakdown or he's still an intelligent guy. But he hasn't just become a bumbling idiot, which seem to be the popular theory. I'm telling you, I smell a a Stan Kroenke and it's a fucking unpleasant stench.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

And I guess there's always the fundamental bottom line: if the people in charge aren't able or willing to sack the person supposedly wrecking the club, then there as much to blame as anyone else really. Sick of people like SB and PnG lumping the blame with one man when the owners are ultimately to blame for either poor judgement or weak leadership.

:gp: agree totoally with this. If your boss keeps you in the job no matter how poor you have been and seems to think your the right person, either he sees something we don't see or he's a fool.

[Niall_Quinn]

:gp: agree totoally with this. If your boss keeps you in the job no matter how poor you have been and seems to think your the right person, either he sees something we don't see or he's a fool.

Come on, the British establishment survives on incompetent idiots pushing out chairs for their incompetent idiot friends.

[AKBapologist]

If we had quality players like Bergkamp and Henry playing for us than yes, fair play. But we're paying guys that are nowhere near that standard.
We are paying for players who are exactly the standard we finished in. Only SAF is doing better than he should be in that regards, and even he is spending 20mill more a year than us on wages than we are.

I think we've just free'd up a whole ton of wages 30-40mill ish with the recent sales, lower wage bill than spurs and if it stays as is, that's where it'll say.

[Power n Glory]

Saying the fans should be patient all all that silverware stuff is bs for AW, but its nothing to do with someone saying the fans are idiots.

So by your logic then David moyes is a idiot because Bill kenwright called everton fans muppets, so David moyes must be a cunt.

Same with the leeds manager after bates told his fans to shut up and stop moaning.

I

You're not getting it.

Why does Wenger feel the need to back the board if he disagrees with them? Why is he echoing the same message and the same sort of arrogance? Wenger isn't an idiot because of what PHW said, he's an idiot because he's being arrogant and showing a total disregard to the voice of the fans. Similar to how PHW is carrying on. I can't sympathise with him when he acts this way. Right now, people are making excuses for his behaviour. Most managers in a tough spot keep quiet and get on with the job or throw jabs back. They don't criticise the fans.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

You're not getting it.

Why does Wenger feel the need to back the board if he disagrees with them? Why is he echoing the same message and the same sort of arrogance? Wenger isn't an idiot because of what PHW said, he's an idiot because he's being arrogant and showing a total disregard to the voice of the fans. Similar to how PHW is carrying on. I can't sympathise with him when he acts this way. Right now, people are making excuses for his behaviour. Most managers in a tough spot keep quiet and get on with the job or throw jabs back. They don't criticise the fans.

Simple they pay his wages we don't any Manager would be the same, do you think Fergie Agreed with the Glazers, why did he not come out and support the Green and yellow?

Im not saying Aw is right to Front for the boared, because he is not, but he will never say bad word against his team or board while he is employed by them.

When he leaves or if we may here a bit more. Why is it he gets praise from every player that leaves but the boared gets evils.

[Power n Glory]

All that BS about nobody leaving the club. That was bizarre, unless you put it in the context of Wenger having a pop at the board. Interesting, that article above that talked about Rioch being paid to keep his mouth shut. These Old Etonian twats all velue their public image, even when the truth behind the scenes is less than savoury. Is Wenger permitted in his contract to say anything other than, "Rah, rah, rah!"? I doubt it. Maybe the fans would do better to hold fire and wait to see if any truth breaks the surface. It would be better to direct fire at the most deserving targets. I'm not forgiving Wenger for his stubborn refusal to kick out the dross and correct the major problems but if we're going to have a clearout let's make sure we get all of them, not just the front man. If that's what he is at all. Somehow I don't think he is. I've been suspicious for a couple of weeks now. It's like Wenger is speaking in code, saying things we all know not to be true and make him look ridiculous. Either he's had a breakdown or he's still an intelligent guy. But he hasn't just become a bumbling idiot, which seem to be the popular theory. I'm telling you, I smell a a Stan Kroenke and it's a fucking unpleasant stench.

It really is bizarre, but from what I've read about his last days at Monaco, it all ended in the same way. Total defiance and the fans just couldn't understand it. He wouldn't budge on his transfer policy and the axe finally fell when they had a real shocker of a season.

[fakeyank]

All that BS about nobody leaving the club. That was bizarre, unless you put it in the context of Wenger having a pop at the board. Interesting, that article above that talked about Rioch being paid to keep his mouth shut. These Old Etonian twats all velue their public image, even when the truth behind the scenes is less than savoury. Is Wenger permitted in his contract to say anything other than, "Rah, rah, rah!"? I doubt it. Maybe the fans would do better to hold fire and wait to see if any truth breaks the surface. It would be better to direct fire at the most deserving targets. I'm not forgiving Wenger for his stubborn refusal to kick out the dross and correct the major problems but if we're going to have a clearout let's make sure we get all of them, not just the front man. If that's what he is at all. Somehow I don't think he is. I've been suspicious for a couple of weeks now. It's like Wenger is speaking in code, saying things we all know not to be true and make him look ridiculous. Either he's had a breakdown or he's still an intelligent guy. But he hasn't just become a bumbling idiot, which seem to be the popular theory. I'm telling you, I smell a a Stan Kroenke and it's a fucking unpleasant stench.

I like your posts when you talk about Arsenal and their deficiencies football wise.. In fact, I think you are the best poster in GW when talking football but what you are saying now makes no sense. We dont know how Stan works.. how can you say that Kroenke is behind this? Stan took over Arsenal midway through last season but Arsene has been a fucking tool for the last 3-4 seasons. Remember Ade, Toure and Hleb season.. why wasnt the money reinvested? Stan wasnt the majority owner then... I dont know how all of a sudden you have become AW sympathetic. If AW is such a victim, why doesnt he resign? Why stay on and tarnish his reputation? He is an intelligent man who should surely know that with this squad he will win fuck all... so why give into the boards demands? Its not like he will be broke and on the streets if he doesnt have a job... forget that, he will have a beeline of clubs around him if he resigns.
I'd respect him more if he resigns and tells us why he did it... but he wont coz all this conspiracy theory that an American 4000 miles away is fucking the club up makes for wishful thinking... thats not how it is.. AW is deluded and his stubbornness and arrogance will take this club down with him

[KSE Comedy Club]

Im very pissed off and saddened at the moment, so I cant vote on the poll. I will wait until the transfer window is closed and then vote.

He has 10 days to sort the team out and get in the players we need.

If he doesnt, then he can fuck off.

[Power n Glory]

Simple they pay his wages we don't any Manager would be the same, do you think Fergie Agreed with the Glazers, why did he not come out and support the Green and yellow?

Im not saying Aw is right to Front for the boared, because he is not, but he will never say bad word against his team or board while he is employed by them.

When he leaves or if we may here a bit more. Why is it he gets praise from every player that leaves but the boared gets evils.

You don't have to say something silly to upset the board. But you don't have to insult the fans either. Just look how the Chelsea managers have handled tough spots with the fans, players and that sneaky Russian. Did any of them say they should be grateful because they're rich and have won trophies in the last few years. No. You just don't need to go there.

[Power n Glory]

One more point. Remember when Arsene sat through that shareholders grilling and told them they should be happy because the club is making a profit? Remember that year?

That summer, he started to flirt a little with Real Madrid, after the pressure was put on him by the fans. Why play that card then? Why at that moment? If the board had been screwing him over for the years on end, he could have left when Dein left.

[kas]

Was past it a couple years ago.

Should have gone then and has only deteriorated much further since then so the answer remains the same, he needs to gtfo.

Agree & he should take his geriatric coaches with him
'Pat' I can't do anything till I get a message from the Stand (Boro)
'Boro' I got 2 mobile phones, now what do I do
What other manager at that age (Kenny,Hodgson, Arry etc) has coaches/assistants that age these days?

[Niall_Quinn]

You're not getting it.

Why does Wenger feel the need to back the board if he disagrees with them? Why is he echoing the same message and the same sort of arrogance? Wenger isn't an idiot because of what PHW said, he's an idiot because he's being arrogant and showing a total disregard to the voice of the fans. Similar to how PHW is carrying on. I can't sympathise with him when he acts this way. Right now, people are making excuses for his behaviour. Most managers in a tough spot keep quiet and get on with the job or throw jabs back. They don't criticise the fans.

PnG, a corporation always puts out a unified message no matter what shit is going on behind the scenes. That's just the done thing in the business world. There's a lot of money at stake here, the people who have access to that money and have a legal entitlement to help themselves to a cut are never going to view things the same way as fans. Most business people I've dealt with would sell their mother for additional profit. There are very, very few honourable business people. This isn't because they are bad individuals (though many of them are that too) it's because the culture of business demands profit first, above all else including common sense in many cases.

The corporation is also about shifting the cost of doing business externally whilst maintaining the profits internally. People at the top view this as normal and the smart thing to do. They take their responsibilities very seriously, in a brainwashed kind of way. It's hard to explain, I've sat in many boardrooms (never as an owner I might add, but as a skivvy) and listened to many tools go on about this that or the other and it has always struck me how detached from reality these fuckers are but yet how much power they have over that reality. And most of them are fucking clueless, these days hardly anyone works their way up through a business. They parachute in at the top floor complete with a nudge, nudge, reputation passed on by another tie down the road.

Different world but the short story is you are never going to see Wenger come out and call our board a bunch of cunts, not until all bridges have been burned an open hostilities are in progress. But it's pretty amazing what has been happening nonetheless. I pointed to the statements about no players leaving and now he's telling us the Nasri deal is nowhere near done. Either everyone in the board is on the same page as Wenger and suddenly everyone at the club is deluded, or there's my "conspiracy theory" of a split. Let's face it, if I'm wrong then we're in even bigger trouble than we all think.

Look at this Kroneke bloke. Comes in, quietly buys up the club with and as soon as he's secure and in charge things start to look like they are falling apart. Things weren't great before that but at least we could go into a game against Liverpool with some expectation of a favourable result. It's time for this absent owner to show his face and tell us what is going on I think. And I believe Wenger has already tried to tell us in the only way possible. Sure, it;s just guesswork on my part but the popular arguments calls for Wenger to be so stubborn, so deluded, so averse to spending money that he'd destroy the club he's tried to build over 15 years. That doesn't make sense to me and doubly so because the argument also calls for Kroenke and the board to just sit there and watch it happening. Something else is going on I think and it's probably not the best time for the fans to be heaping the pressure on Wenger in case we're fighting the one person who might be standing up for what we want as fans. I'm not saying that's certainly the case, but it would be wise to try and get the whole picture before taking a hatchet to it.

The next 10 days will tell us a lot.

[Globalgunner]

The board is a problem but so is Wenger. The board does not determine the style of play, the board does not identify Tweety bird and Squid as capable defenders. Wenger makes a big public pride on being left to manage all football affairs at Arsenal. In fact when Kroenke first took over that was the first statement out of his mouth, that he would be in charge of all football matters regardless. Our team cannot defend for thier lives, we have a feeble attack and only this year has the goalkeeper situation ben resolved when Almunia has been pants for 4 years. Wenger is the problem, the main problem and maybe the only problem. All that Gash about wanting to buy Subotic et al is just a smokecreen. Wenger has NEVER bought a TOP quality defender in all his years here, except Campbell who was a special case. In all deference to Vermaelen and Kos, they are good enough but no one across europe was breaking down doors to get them. Wenger is more noted for the dross like tweety bird and the muppets who played when we were thrashed 6-1 at OT. I have had to have therapy to have their names erased from my memeory, so please no one remind me.

[Power n Glory]

Simple they pay his wages we don't any Manager would be the same, do you think Fergie Agreed with the Glazers, why did he not come out and support the Green and yellow?

Im not saying Aw is right to Front for the boared, because he is not, but he will never say bad word against his team or board while he is employed by them.

When he leaves or if we may here a bit more. Why is it he gets praise from every player that leaves but the boared gets evils.

Yes, true. Fabs said he owes Wenger and without him, he wouldn't be playing for Barca. Wenger said we sold Cesc on the cheap because it was an issue of the heart and he was torn between two clubs. That doesn't soun like a man that was forced by the board to sell.

Last point, back to this boss/employee analogy. If Wenger is happy to pick up a pay check while sitting around incompetence and mediocrity, then what does that say about him? Isn't he just as bad as the players that are happy to pick up an Arsenal paycheck but go through the motions on the pitch when playing? Showing no passion or urge to shake things up and make something happen? We want rid of that type of player. Shouldn't it be the same for Wenger if he's keeping his mouth shut because he's afraid of losing his job?

I don't think that's consistent with his character but if you hold that view, then Wenger is part of the problem and should go.

[AKBapologist]

The board is a problem but so is Wenger....

...Wenger is the problem, the main problem and maybe the only problem.
:unsure:

[Power n Glory]

PnG, a corporation always puts out a unified message no matter what shit is going on behind the scenes. That's just the done thing in the business world. There's a lot of money at stake here, the people who have access to that money and have a legal entitlement to help themselves to a cut are never going to view things the same way as fans. Most business people I've dealt with would sell their mother for additional profit. There are very, very few honourable business people. This isn't because they are bad individuals (though many of them are that too) it's because the culture of business demands profit first, above all else including common sense in many cases.

The corporation is also about shifting the cost of doing business externally whilst maintaining the profits internally. People at the top view this as normal and the smart thing to do. They take their responsibilities very seriously, in a brainwashed kind of way. It's hard to explain, I've sat in many boardrooms (never as an owner I might add, but as a skivvy) and listened to many tools go on about this that or the other and it has always struck me how detached from reality these fuckers are but yet how much power they have over that reality. And most of them are fucking clueless, these days hardly anyone works their way up through a business. They parachute in at the top floor complete with a nudge, nudge, reputation passed on by another tie down the road.

Different world but the short story is you are never going to see Wenger come out and call our board a bunch of cunts, not until all bridges have been burned an open hostilities are in progress. But it's pretty amazing what has been happening nonetheless. I pointed to the statements about no players leaving and now he's telling us the Nasri deal is nowhere near done. Either everyone in the board is on the same page as Wenger and suddenly everyone at the club is deluded, or there's my "conspiracy theory" of a split. Let's face it, if I'm wrong then we're in even bigger trouble than we all think.

Look at this Kroneke bloke. Comes in, quietly buys up the club with and as soon as he's secure and in charge things start to look like they are falling apart. Things weren't great before that but at least we could go into a game against Liverpool with some expectation of a favourable result. It's time for this absent owner to show his face and tell us what is going on I think. And I believe Wenger has already tried to tell us in the only way possible. Sure, it;s just guesswork on my part but the popular arguments calls for Wenger to be so stubborn, so deluded, so averse to spending money that he'd destroy the club he's tried to build over 15 years. That doesn't make sense to me and doubly so because the argument also calls for Kroenke and the board to just sit there and watch it happening. Something else is going on I think and it's probably not the best time for the fans to be heaping the pressure on Wenger in case we're fighting the one person who might be standing up for what we want as fans. I'm not saying that's certainly the case, but it would be wise to try and get the whole picture before taking a hatchet to it.

The next 10 days will tell us a lot.

We will soon see where he stands. As posted earlier, if he's putting on a united front so he doesn't rock the boat and can continue picking up a paycheck, then he's just as bad as those deceptive scumbags. But if he has the fans best interest at heart, then he'll have to make things a little more clear because the message isn't filtering through.

[Xhaka Can’t]

From a club challenging for title to being reasonably content with 6th.. AW has fucked us in the ass and for some weird reason, I still see him being defended. I want the cunt out and I'd rather not have a manager at Arsenal than have him.

http://f.imagehost.org/0171/wenger_out.png

I struggle to reconcile your juvenile rants with the guy I met at the Chelsea match.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If AW is such a victim, why doesnt he resign? Why stay on and tarnish his reputation?

Because he is Arsenal to his core.

Can you be as sure as Kroenke, Usmanov or any other cunt on the Board?

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, true. Fabs said he owes Wenger and without him, he wouldn't be playing for Barca. Wenger said we sold Cesc on the cheap because it was an issue of the heart and he was torn between two clubs. That doesn't soun like a man that was forced by the board to sell.

Last point, back to this boss/employee analogy. If Wenger is happy to pick up a pay check while sitting around incompetence and mediocrity, then what does that say about him? Isn't he just as bad as the players that are happy to pick up an Arsenal paycheck but go through the motions on the pitch when playing? Showing no passion or urge to shake things up and make something happen? We want rid of that type of player. Shouldn't it be the same for Wenger if he's keeping his mouth shut because he's afraid of losing his job?

I don't think that's consistent with his character but if you hold that view, then Wenger is part of the problem and should go.

We want rid of all the business trash that's slinked into football, I'd say. But that's not going to happen. Wenger and all managers are dealing in a different environment to the past when the football took priority. You have the ex-England skipper whoring himself out in the Far East and advising anonymous businessmen how they can get in, make the cash and get out - where do the fans come into that? You have the interests of the club at heart, so do I, so do most fans. But that's not necessarily true of the gang in the boardroom, beyond Arsenal being a vehicle for them to profit. And face it, they have profited greatly regardless of what has happened on the pitch. What does a manager do, does he demand they leave and that altruistic owners are installed? Where does he get the power to enforce that demand? But the fans could do it - unfortunately only by doing short term harm to the club which always runs the risk of resulting in permanent harm. That's the trouble with these business fuckers, they have the money and in many ways they have the power too because they are selfish enough to do the things the fans wouldn't.

[Ashburton2006]

I know I keep saying it, but he should have gone years ago! As for bringing back George Graham! What a joke! Look at what he done to Leeds! Mourhino is the man! Now before Wenger does a Cloughie and relegates us!!

[Niall_Quinn]

I know I keep saying it, but he should have gone years ago! As for bringing back George Graham! What a joke! Look at what he done to Leeds! Mourhino is the man! Now before Wenger does a Cloughie and relegates us!!

Mourinho and our board - it's not going to happen is it?

[fakeyank]

Because he is Arsenal to his core.

Can you be as sure as Kroenke, Usmanov or any other cunt on the Board?

Not Kroenke or Usmanov but others are as much Arsenal as Arsene Wenger is. So him staying on helps who? Nobody in world football can take our squad to the title and no matter how good AW is, he cant get us to that expectation we have from him.. so why stay on? He is Arsenal through and through but by staying on despite his alleged difficulties, he is only tarnishing his reputations. Wouldnt he rather quit and let the fans know what sort of constraints he has been under? That would keep his legend alive and let everyone know what the main problem is!

However the reality is that HE is the problem. He is way too stubborn and I dont understand whats with the sudden Arsene love in... If it was just this season, I'd understand but its not just this season but been the same for the last 4-5 seasons! C'mon, did his old sad face change all ur minds? Where are you guys getting information that this is some sort of inside job? This is freaking baffling!
The board and Arsene have both said we have money to spend, so if they are not spending who do I blame? Cant blame the board coz Arsene is in charge of football matters and I will judge him by it. I have no time for conspiracy theories which has absolutely no basis or foundation... facts say we have money and our manager hasnt spent it for many seasons.

One question.. why buy OAC for close to 15 mill? We clearly dont have money right..

[latewinner]

I have no sympathy for the man. You guys are on one if you think the board is to blame. PHW has no problem calling Arsenal fans 'idiots' and then you've this complete arrogance from Wenger telling people that his judgement shouldn't be questioned. Wenger has no problem telling the fans that the booing hasn't helped the Nasri situation and we're partly to blame for him leaving but has never turned on the board and openly questioned their behaviour. Even when PHW disrespects the fans, Gazidis is the man stepping in trying appeal to the fans and choosing his words carefully because he knows without us there is no club. He try's to send out the right message to the fans, you don't get none of that from PHW or Wenger. Just pure arrogance. They have this 'how dare you question my judgement' type attitude. You don't get that from Gazidis. He's knows the situation is tense and because of Wenger's actions, he's having to double back on the things he has said during the AST meeting.

If Wenger was protecting the board, I'd a expect a much more humble approach and man talking as if his hands are tied. I get no sense of that from Wenger. His attitude and PHW's are almost synchronised. Where is the attempt to try and ease the fans fears or even empathise? He's telling people that 'patience is a sign of intelligence'! If you're under pressure and don't agree with what your boss is doing, you side with the people that hold a similar view or at least stay silent and not go all out to insult the people that have supported you for all these years.

Sorry, I don't buy this board hanging Wenger out to try story. Not once has he questioned the boards policies because he agrees with them. We all know we have money to spend and months of speculation he comes put and says he'll spend up to £40m but only for the right type of player. What more do you need?

Top Top view especially that is very true. I think anyone believing Wenger is the poor victim in this refused the money he pleads for transfers is very naive . He is their cash cow. He's probably the most powerful and secured manager in football. There's isn't a manager available who would virtually guarantee champions league football like he has and it's just very clear from what he's says every season, the excuses he makes every season and the mistakes he never learns from this is what he's content to do

If he really was pushing for funds demanding 50 million or so to buy a couple of players factoring in sales and actually motivated to be the best , they wouldn't refuse and risk him quitting. It isn't an outrageous request and they need him more than he needs them.

He doesn't demand anything beyond what's needed for a top 4 place and a quarter final place in the champions league. And as long as they have him having built up messiah like support because of his earlier success they have their excuse keep it this way.
They're really cowardly and short sighted. We're in a position where we could easily be competing with the big clubs, get that european cup to our name and make much more money than we currently do .

I'm not gonna call wenger a cunt though or anything like that because he still deserves respect and when I hear him talk I still see a good person I'd feel bad tearing in to.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I think you look at things in far too simplistic a manner. You want the easy answer, in fact we all do. I want Wenger to go because if he does, THEN we may start getting to the root of our problems. It may even be for the best for him. He said something that resonated with me, that made me think about how much he loves the club and how much he invested in it.

I fucking hate that I want him out, but I think it has to happen. And for you to refer to him as a cunt, well that is just sickening, and I'm sorry, but that speaks volumes about how fickle you are and says nothing about Wenger the man, to me.


Not Kroenke or Usmanov but others are as much Arsenal as Arsene Wenger is. So him staying on helps who? Nobody in world football can take our squad to the title and no matter how good AW is, he cant get us to that expectation we have from him.. so why stay on? He is Arsenal through and through but by staying on despite his alleged difficulties, he is only tarnishing his reputations. Wouldnt he rather quit and let the fans know what sort of constraints he has been under? That would keep his legend alive and let everyone know what the main problem is!

However the reality is that HE is the problem. He is way too stubborn and I dont understand whats with the sudden Arsene love in... If it was just this season, I'd understand but its not just this season but been the same for the last 4-5 seasons! C'mon, did his old sad face change all ur minds? Where are you guys getting information that this is some sort of inside job? This is freaking baffling!
The board and Arsene have both said we have money to spend, so if they are not spending who do I blame? Cant blame the board coz Arsene is in charge of football matters and I will judge him by it. I have no time for conspiracy theories which has absolutely no basis or foundation... facts say we have money and our manager hasnt spent it for many seasons.

One question.. why buy OAC for close to 15 mill? We clearly dont have money right..

[Marc Overmars]

I am starting to think there is something going on above Wenger, I just don't understand how we can be so tentative and unambitious in the transfer market. However Wenger also needs to cut out this crap about super quality and not being able to find better than what we have.

There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere, we're not some hard up club and judging by the shite served up on the pitch this year, players like, say Scott Dann are not beneath us and wouldn't cost the earth either. It's time to start acting like a proper football club who consistently strive to improve.

[Coney]

I am starting to think there is something going on above Wenger, I just don't understand how we can be so tentative and unambitious in the transfer market. However Wenger also needs to cut out this crap about super quality and not being able to find better than what we have.

I'm pretty sure that the board is involved - I have mentioned this before, based initially on the Ashley Cole saga when he hinted about the board not doing what he wanted, though he only mentioned it the once - I think he did not mean to reveal anything. He says what he does, knowing it is not the real story because he does not believe in washing the dirty linen in public and I respect that. His comments about quality and so on are a cover to avoid answering questions which would force him to reveal the backroom issues. The idea some seem to have that he does not understand what is wrong with the team is ridiculous - he knows what we need, just that there is a reason he can't get what he wants. What the reason is can't be known for certain but I don't believe it is because he won't pay a specific price. That article today suggesting the board are balking at the wages that the top players command has such a ring of truth about it and matches their pitch on the Ashley Cole saga - seems to be the same issue again.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger acts on his beliefs and convictions. I find it hard to back him because he's the type of guy to play crap players like Denilson all season and despite the performances on the pitch, he'll back the player, talk him up, point to the stats and keep playing the little bugger until the wheels fall off. He firmly believed in what he's doing.

He's consistent with his beliefs and that follows through to the press conferences and the situation we are seeing now. Nobody was forcing him to play Denilson, he just believed he was making the right decision. Right now, nobody is forcing him to sign young players, he just believes this is the right way to go.

[GP]

I'm pretty sure that the board is involved - I have mentioned this before, based initially on the Ashley Cole saga when he hinted about the board not doing what he wanted, though he only mentioned it the once - I think he did not mean to reveal anything. He says what he does, knowing it is not the real story because he does not believe in washing the dirty linen in public and I respect that. His comments about quality and so on are a cover to avoid answering questions which would force him to reveal the backroom issues. The idea some seem to have that he does not understand what is wrong with the team is ridiculous - he knows what we need, just that there is a reason he can't get what he wants. What the reason is can't be known for certain but I don't believe it is because he won't pay a specific price. That article today suggesting the board are balking at the wages that the top players command has such a ring of truth about it and matches their pitch on the Ashley Cole saga - seems to be the same issue again.

Yep, good post.

[AKBapologist]

Lots of cognitive dissidence and selectivity based on prejudges of the manager here. You say he's this because he's said this, then ignore something else he's done or said in the past because it doesnt fit your arguments.

Another thing is back before city and chavs got involved, what we spent relative to everyone else was massive. AW had no problem with it then, he says he has no problem with it now so why all this "he an ideologue" crap that has no barings on reality?

[Cripps_orig]

No.

[Master Splinter]

Not enough calling Wenger a cunt in this thread.

[fakeyank]

I think you look at things in far too simplistic a manner. You want the easy answer, in fact we all do. I want Wenger to go because if he does, THEN we may start getting to the root of our problems. It may even be for the best for him. He said something that resonated with me, that made me think about how much he loves the club and how much he invested in it.

I fucking hate that I want him out, but I think it has to happen. And for you to refer to him as a cunt, well that is just sickening, and I'm sorry, but that speaks volumes about how fickle you are and says nothing about Wenger the man, to me.

I may be fickle but I do know that AW is not the right person for the job. I dont know what he said that resonated so much with some of you but facts are facts! We have had story after story saying how much profits we have had and how Arsene can spend a good amount on players.

Forget spending.. may be we are broke beyond belief.. MAY BE there was a hacking of AFC holdings and all our money was taken but that doesnt excuse the sorry nature of his tactics or player selection...
- Why is Bendtner played on the right? Why was Eduardo played on the wings?
- Why did he not play Arshavin in a cup game to teach the other ppl they could win without him?
- Why do we have Squillaci?
- Its apparent that we get bullied off the ball in set pieces yet we continue without our midget policy.. why?
- Why has our football gone from fast attacking to slow paced tippy tappy?
- Why did he let go of Senior players who couldve been valuable in the dressing room?

Above questions are not related to money but what he has done with the football team and I am sorry, he has failed. As for how much he loves Arsenal, even Judas (if he is real) would love Arsenal if he is paid 6 mill quid a year. You n I love it coz we are retarded or because we find a connection with this team.

[-Xs-]

Not enough calling Wenger a cunt in this thread.

People are still in the waiting period... Wait till we fail to qualify for chimps league footy...

[fakeyank]

People are still in the waiting period... Wait till we fail to qualify for chimps league footy...

I sure hope we dont qualify. No point making the numbers. Hopefully that will lead to AW getting sacked or him changing his ways (highly unlikely)

[Japan Shaking All Over]

I'm pretty sure that the board is involved - I have mentioned this before, based initially on the Ashley Cole saga when he hinted about the board not doing what he wanted, though he only mentioned it the once - I think he did not mean to reveal anything. He says what he does, knowing it is not the real story because he does not believe in washing the dirty linen in public and I respect that. His comments about quality and so on are a cover to avoid answering questions which would force him to reveal the backroom issues. The idea some seem to have that he does not understand what is wrong with the team is ridiculous - he knows what we need, just that there is a reason he can't get what he wants. What the reason is can't be known for certain but I don't believe it is because he won't pay a specific price. That article today suggesting the board are balking at the wages that the top players command has such a ring of truth about it and matches their pitch on the Ashley Cole saga - seems to be the same issue again.

good post Coney and I do think that the whole situation is darker than just Wenger not realising or paying tofays going rate.
I refuse to believe that he is satified or even optimostic about the whole state of affairs but then O do wiestion he yeam choices Denilson, Diaby, Almunia et all
I mean if he had so little say then surely he has the right to take a stand, having the decency to not drag things out in public, I respect for biting your tongue must hurt, I am surprised he hasnt bit it clean off, then he eouldnt be able to speak at all. . . .which for some may be a blessing for both some fans and the board

Me I reckon the guy needs to grow a pair

[-Xs-]

I agree we won't win the thing, but not getting it would make it even harder to attract the top players, not that we are signing anyone anyway....

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I sure hope we dont qualify. No point making the numbers. Hopefully that will lead to AW getting sacked or him changing his ways (highly unlikely)

Not going to happen, you believe that AW is more powerful then the board then why would he get sacked them. Nah i thought about us going out the CL yeah i might be easier for us to win, but it be a disiaster since we may not get back next season.

Being in the cl will give the sqaud belif for the season and if it means we get the likes of KAKA(if it happens) then so be it.

[fakeyank]

Not going to happen, you believe that AW is more powerful then the board then why would he get sacked them. Nah i thought about us going out the CL yeah i might be easier for us to win, but it be a disiaster since we may not get back next season.

Being in the cl will give the sqaud belif for the season and if it means we get the likes of KAKA(if it happens) then so be it.

The board is happy now coz he has been delivering CL football, bringing in more revenue. I do believe PHW and the old farts will do anything Arsene says but I think that Stan will not allow the standards to go too low. Us not qualifying could be the very important first step towards the beginning of the end of Wenger. Inshahallah this will happen :pray:

As for belief to the squad if they qualify.. it might give them brief belief but once they get into the knock out stages and get humiliated by the other top teams, their belief will come back to 0. Better now to go through the bad patch and pick ourselves up over the course of the season. We do know how vulnerable our lot are towards the end of the season.. so a drubbing by one of the top sides in Europe could see us slide down to 9th or 10th place! :yikes:

[Boss]

Can't see what good being in the CL does for us (footballistically™) as it brings in a load of money but we get comfortably beaten by the first big side we come up against.

Still want us to be in it as it's for the top clubs in the game (in the big leagues at least) but really wish we made more of an effort.

[Flavs]

He should have gone when teh collapse became evident at the end of last season tbh. It genuinely upsets me that this witty, well spoken, gentleman of a football manager who bought us 3 great teams 1 of which is the single greatest team in this countries league history has become a beaten down, bitter, ranting man who seems completely detached from the world around him.

I am 100% positive that the wierdness currently surrounding the club isnt all down to him and that the board are up to some shenanigans that restricts purchasing. I am also sure that some fans have shown how naive they are around how current football business and media works. But this does not exscuse the tactics, the glass Jaw and the over reliance on unproven, expensive youngsters are HIS fault IMO. as someone said earlier the club have had all summer to sort this shit out and with 8 days of the transfer window left and already a defeat to one of our top 4 rivals we are worse off than we were in May. This again isnt all down to Wenger but the board cant sack itself sadly.

I still think he will be gone by xmas, out the champs league on Wednesday, early exit from the Carling cup and when we lose to manyoo next week we will already be some 8 points behind the leaders. If it is the board and he just doesnt want to show it in public then my respect for him returns but5 he wont walk.

bad times

[Flavs]

I sure hope we dont qualify. No point making the numbers. Hopefully that will lead to AW getting sacked or him changing his ways (highly unlikely)

Just so i have this straight, you're not happy we arent buying players but you dont want us to qualify for the champs league? A near £35mil pay day and greater attraction for top players?

Americans, know your limits.

[fakeyank]

Just so i have this straight, you're not happy we arent buying players but you dont want us to qualify for the champs league? A near £35mil pay day and greater attraction for top players?

Americans, know your limits.

Whats the point of attracting top talent when we are not going to buy them? :lol: We have not got a single top player in the last 6-7 seasons unless you count Arshavin in there! We have made stars out of nobodies but us playing in the CL was never used to get top quality players, only super super quality players like Squillaci and Chamakh!

So let me get this straight for u brits- I want us to get knocked out of CL this year so that it gives the owners, board members, AW perspective that we cannot go on depleting our squad with shit players, toddlers and expect to be there every season. I am hoping this kick up the arse will change things in the way the club is run. If yes, we will at least see above avg. players sign for the club- Samba, Jagielka, Marvin Martin etc. Right now, all we are getting are Jenkinson, OAC, Marco Polo (or something similar), some costarican hip hop artist... WTF! Surely getting knocked out of the CL will give AW the motivation to qualify for next season and may be, just fucking may be, he will sign the likes of Parker, Samba, Bellamy (unlikely) etc. At least we will be spared the rubbish we saw in the first 3 games of the season..

[Letters]

Do you seriously think, FY, that you and I, internet twats (no offence), are more able to see the deficiencies in our squad than Arsene Wenger?
Seriously?
I don't believe that.
He's either gone ABSOLUTELY MENTAL (unlikely, IMO) or there's something going on, probably at board level.
Neither of us know of course but I think the latter is more likely and if you think removing Wenger and getting another manager in will magically solve that and we'll be brilliant again then I'd suggest it's a little more complex than that.

[Flavs]

Whats the point of attracting top talent when we are not going to buy them? :lol: We have not got a single top player in the last 6-7 seasons unless you count Arshavin in there! We have made stars out of nobodies but us playing in the CL was never used to get top quality players, only super super quality players like Squillaci and Chamakh!

So let me get this straight for u brits- I want us to get knocked out of CL this year so that it gives the owners, board members, AW perspective that we cannot go on depleting our squad with shit players, toddlers and expect to be there every season. I am hoping this kick up the arse will change things in the way the club is run. If yes, we will at least see above avg. players sign for the club- Samba, Jagielka, Marvin Martin etc. Right now, all we are getting are Jenkinson, OAC, Marco Polo (or something similar), some costarican hip hop artist... WTF! Surely getting knocked out of the CL will give AW the motivation to qualify for next season and may be, just fucking may be, he will sign the likes of Parker, Samba, Bellamy (unlikely) etc. At least we will be spared the rubbish we saw in the first 3 games of the season..

You got some strange ideas hillbilly boy

[Grebbo]

Do you seriously think, FY, that you and I, internet twats (no offence), are more able to see the deficiencies in our squad than Arsene Wenger?
Seriously?
I don't believe that.
He's either gone ABSOLUTELY MENTAL (unlikely, IMO) or there's something going on, probably at board level.
Neither of us know of course but I think the latter is more likely and if you think removing Wenger and getting another manager in will magically solve that and we'll be brilliant again then I'd suggest it's a little more complex than that.

Again... AW has spent £25m this summer on two players and neither of them are a CB , CM or striker.

He is not attempting to fix our faults.

He is mental.

[Boss]

Do you seriously think, FY, that you and I, internet twats (no offence), are more able to see the deficiencies in our squad than Arsene Wenger?


You talk of the Arsene Wenger of old, not the one of the last six years. The biggest inconsistency with our transfer dealings this summer is the signing of AOC for 15M.

If Arsenal have a limited transfer budget, then surely that 15M would be put to better use on players that could fit into the team now, instead of being wasted on someone that likely won't have an impact for at least 2-3 years.

If the issue is down to wages as suggested by some, surely moves for various EPL players at standard (non top-6) clubs would not cause us to break any wage system structure and still improve the side.

That we're still having the same defensive issues as six years ago is down to Wenger and no one else.

That we've bought just two players from the English top flight in the last ten years is down to Wenger and no one else.

As for the question asked, I'd assume the same was asked in response to Nottingham Forest fans questioning the decisions Clough made before he got the club relegated.

In fact, the statement on Wikipedia reads very similar to what's happening to us...


The 1992–93 season was Clough's 18th with Forest – and his last. They were one of the 22 clubs in the new Premier League, but the sale of key players like Teddy Sheringham(Cesc Fabregas) and Des Walker(Samir Nasri), combined with the manager's increasingly uncontrolled alcoholism(lack of intervention/stubbornness), saw the club's fortunes take a sharp decline and they were bottom virtually all season. Just before a 2–0 defeat against Sheffield United confirmed the club's relegation after 16 years in the top flight, Clough announced his retirement as manager.

They started that season better than we've started this as well.

Not saying Wenger will get us relegated as that's silly, but quality wise we have less in reserve than most sides in the top ten and this season could be a lot worse than people are assuming.

I think that only Wenger could pick up some of the players he's found on the fees he's paid for them, but quite a few managers could get more out of them tactically.

[Flavs]

That we've bought just two players from the English top flight in the last ten years is down to Wenger and no one else.



Tweety :bow:

[Letters]

The comparisons with Clough are nonsense. He took Forest down, Wenger's taken us to 4th place.
We may struggle to stay there in the era of billionaire owners, 2 of the sides in last season's top 4 are very hard to compete with, but I seriously doubt we'll finish that low. Still top 6 at worst and I wouldn't rule out top 4.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

all this talk that wenger has not gone mental is mad.

he clearly has.

he advocated this move for youth, not the board, and hes stuck by it aggressively right until this day.

was it the board who denied wenger paying a measly £3m/£4m for schwarzer? was it the board who denied wenger paying a measly £4m more for alonso, one of the best players in the world, who lets face it was not on ridiculous wages? was it the board who stopped a defensive coach coming in to help wenger? no. it was wenger who chose not to.

he's so deep into this philosophy that over the years he's made himself blind to all the basic fundamental problems in our squad.

vidic, vermaelen, evra, sagna, van de vaart, enrique, all some of the players that have gone for under £10m and came with normal wages. there are players out there. wenger chooses not to buy them.

wenger created this mess and he can sort it out, because if another manager came in he'd be so shocked at the state of our squad he'd get the first train out of london.

[Flavs]

You talk of the Arsene Wenger of old, not the one of the last six years. The biggest inconsistency with our transfer dealings this summer is the signing of AOC for 15M.

If Arsenal have a limited transfer budget, then surely that 15M would be put to better use on players that could fit into the team now, instead of being wasted on someone that likely won't have an impact for at least 2-3 years.

If the issue is down to wages as suggested by some, surely moves for various EPL players at standard (non top-6) clubs would not cause us to break any wage system structure and still improve the side.

That we're still having the same defensive issues as six years ago is down to Wenger and no one else.

That we've bought just two players from the English top flight in the last ten years is down to Wenger and no one else.

As for the question asked, I'd assume the same was asked in response to Nottingham Forest fans questioning the decisions Clough made before he got the club relegated.

In fact, the statement on Wikipedia reads very similar to what's happening to us...



They started that season better than we've started this as well.

Not saying Wenger will get us relegated as that's silly, but quality wise we have less in reserve than most sides in the top ten and this season could be a lot worse than people are assuming.

I think that only Wenger could pick up some of the players he's found on the fees he's paid for them, but quite a few managers could get more out of them tactically.

Comparing Wenger and Cloughie is like comparing Sami Nasri and George best mate, booze and an unstable mental state did cloughie simple as. Wenger has a whole load of problems that cant be explained by any of us as we dont have access to the relevant info but he certainly isnt mental like Clough was. The way they are similar is in changing the game. Cloughs achievements at the time were unprecedented.

(Jens face once asked me who he was. Imagine someone taking over at Barnsley now, winning the championship this year, the premiership next year and then winning back to back champions leagues. That's what Cloughie did at Forest.)

[Letters]

all this talk that wenger has not gone mental is mad.

he clearly has.

he advocated this move for youth, not the board, and hes stuck by it aggressively right until this day.

was it the board who denied wenger paying a measly £3m/£4m for schwarzer? was it the board who denied wenger paying a measly £4m more for alonso, one of the best players in the world, who lets face it was not on ridiculous wages? was it the board who stopped a defensive coach coming in to help wenger? no. it was wenger who chose not to.

he's so deep into this philosophy that over the years he's made himself blind to all the basic fundamental problems in our squad.

vidic, vermaelen, evra, sagna, van de vaart, enrique, all some of the players that have gone for under £10m and came with normal wages. there are players out there. wenger chooses not to buy them.

wenger created this mess and he can sort it out, because if another manager came in he'd be so shocked at the state of our squad he'd get the first train out of london.

How do you know any of this? You're assuming far more knowledge of what goes on in the club than you actually have.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

How do you know any of this? You're assuming far more knowledge of what goes on in the club than you actually have.

what part?

wenger said himself he wont pay that much for schwarzer.

phil thompson said the alonso bit a few weeks back.

why would the board stand in the way of a defensive coach? he'd cost about 1 grand a week in wages and help the team possibly win titles.

[Letters]

Tbh I wasn't happy about the Schwarzer thing but have you seen the way Chesney's been playing? Looking back I think Wenger may have got that one right. As for a defensive coach, we'll see how things go this season although IMO with Vermy back we've defended OK so far so let's see how that works out. The first goal on Saturday was just bad luck, the 2nd was a breakaway as we were pushing for an equaliser. The other two games we've kept clean sheets so while it's too early to declare that problem solved there are some signs of hope there. The problem so far this year has been creating chances at the other end.

Edit: How would Phil Thompson know the ins and outs of our transfer negotiations? :unsure:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Tbh I wasn't happy about the Schwarzer thing but have you seen the way Chesney's been playing? Looking back I think Wenger may have got that one right. As for a defensive coach, we'll see how things go this season although IMO with Vermy back we've defended OK so far so let's see how that works out. The first goal on Saturday was just bad luck, the 2nd was a breakaway as we were pushing for an equaliser. The other two games we've kept clean sheets so while it's too early to declare that problem solved there are some signs of hope there. The problem so far this year has been creating chances at the other end.

Edit: How would Phil Thompson know the ins and outs of our transfer negotiations? :unsure:

yeah im not saying he wasnt right but you asked me a question so i answered it.

we lost a hell of a lot of points with fabianski and almunia in goal so although now we're fine, we lost the league 2 years in a row mainly due to our keeper and defensive incapabilities.

phil wouldn't know the ins and out of all our transfer negotiations but he'd know our negotiations with alonso, as he plays for liverpool and he still speaks to staff/players on a regular basis according to him.

[Letters]

Does wenger do the transfer negotiations? I thought that when the GG Bung scandal erupted the board put rules in place to stop the manager directly making transfer negotiations? Although maybe that's not so any more.
I did think the 'keeper thing was a mistake at the time but I don't think the 'keeper problem was a big issue last year once Fabianski and then Chesney played and looked good.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

not last season but seasons prior we definitely lost points due to our keeper.

and wengers got full control of this club. he does pretty much everything, im certain that rule would have been disregarded for monsieur arsene.

[Darth Vela]

Again... AW has spent £25m this summer on two players and neither of them are a CB , CM or striker.

He is not attempting to fix our faults.

He is mental.

Actually, Gervinho is exactly the kind of player we need and AOC is a proper winger, someone for now and someone to prepare for the future, not to mention the way that Jenko ticks every box of things we need in our backline. If AW stops there then, yes he is mental but until then he's actually made some good signings.

Interestingly, the purchase of AOC kinda corroborates a story I read about the whole transfer prevarication being down to wages as we have the money to pay the big fees, he'd be on a relatively low wage compared to the guys we'd be looking to bring in (aside from Jagielka and Samba imo, that may well just be ordinary parsimony).

[Letters]

@SWAYR Mmm. OK. Well as neither of us know whether that's true I guess that's the end of this discussion.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

@SWAYR Mmm. OK. Well as neither of us know whether that's true I guess that's the end of this discussion.

well yeah if you wanna end it like that to fit your argument then fine. and if you want to be ignorant enough to think wenger has not got full control of our club when it's blatantly obvious he has, then thats fine too.

[Grebbo]

Actually, Gervinho is exactly the kind of player we need and AOC is a proper winger, someone for now and someone to prepare for the future, not to mention the way that Jenko ticks every box of things we need in our backline. If AW stops there then, yes he is mental but until then he's actually made some good signings.

Interestingly, the purchase of AOC kinda corroborates a story I read about the whole transfer prevarication being down to wages as we have the money to pay the big fees, he'd be on a relatively low wage compared to the guys we'd be looking to bring in (aside from Jagielka and Samba imo, that may well just be ordinary parsimony).

Age has no bearing on wages with Wenger. Wilshere is on £60k pw.

I'd say a striker and CB is more urgent than wingers (especially a £15m winger who has played 0 minutes so far) and our opening three gams supports this IMO of course.

[Flavs]

.

and wengers got full control of this club. he does pretty much everything, im certain that rule would have been disregarded for monsieur arsene.

Perhaps thats what the board want you to think so that they remain blameless/faceless

[Letters]

My argument is that I don't know how much control he has and that neither do you but if you wish to pretend to have more knowledge about what goes on behind the scenes that than you actually have because it fits your argument than fair enough.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

My argument is that I don't know how much control he has and that neither do you but if you wish to pretend to have more knowledge about what goes on behind the scenes that than you actually have because it fits your argument than fair enough.

yours is absolutely fabricated to fit into your argument, maybe because you cannot accept that your dear arsene has finally lost it. almost like a boxing fan who watches his favourite fighter become old and instead of retiring, the boxer ends up carrying on and losing fights. just cant seem to accept the painfully obvious.

my observation comes from what ive seen/heard over the past few years.

but yeah this discussions run its course.

[Boss]

Perhaps thats what the board want you to think so that they remain blameless/faceless

If that was the case why would Wenger tolerate it?

Can't see him as the martyr destroying his reputation for the sake of a few old men making a lot of money.

As much as I would love to wish that the restrictions (not buying top players) were imposed by the board because it is devastating watching Wenger decline from the man who created the Invincibles to the man that gave Denilson 150+ appearances, logically I can't see that to be the case given his actions in the past.

[Özim]

My argument is that I don't know how much control he has and that neither do you but if you wish to pretend to have more knowledge about what goes on behind the scenes that than you actually have because it fits your argument than fair enough.
Bit of a copout to be honest when all the evidence points to him having a lot of control.

[Darth Vela]

Age has no bearing on wages with Wenger. Wilshere is on £60k pw.

I'd say a striker and CB is more urgent than wingers (especially a £15m winger who has played 0 minutes so far) and our opening three gams supports this IMO of course.

Yeah it does, that's a new contract negotiated in January, isn't it? Wilshere was fantastic for the preceding 5 months and got a pay-rise commensurate with his rise in squad status. AOC is an unproven youngster so whilst he's probably on better wages than the equivalent player at a different club it won't be enough to break the wage structure which is, allegedly, what was holding up our summer. I don't say I particularly believe it, it's easy enough for someone to make up any old bollocks but that transfer seems to support it.

I agree with you that the squad still needs work, although I'd add an AM to that as we're losing one of the most creative player in the world and the guy we groomed as his replacement, if he's a goal-scorer we might not need another striker but with Chamakh's worrying form it wouldn't hurt.

[Letters]

Bit of a copout to be honest when all the evidence points to him having a lot of control.

Not really. What evidence? I'm just saying I don't know. If you do then fine, let's hear how you know.

[Darth Vela]

If that was the case why would Wenger tolerate it?

Can't see him as the martyr destroying his reputation for the sake of a few old men making a lot of money.

As much as I would love to wish that the restrictions (not buying top players) were imposed by the board because it is devastating watching Wenger decline from the man who created the Invincibles to the man that gave Denilson 150+ appearances, logically I can't see that to be the case given his actions in the past.

Cos he actually cares for the club would be one reason. He's put a LOT of work into Arsenal and if speaking out about the backroom squabbling would harm the club (which it probably would imo) or put him out of work, I don't think he'd do that.

[Özim]

Not really. What evidence? I'm just saying I don't know. If you do then fine, let's hear how you know.
If that's the case then noone knows anything so no point talking about anything.

Based on the evidence we have over the years (i.e Wenger's comments on wage structure, player cost and failed negotiations etc) we can hazard a pretty good gues that Wenger has a lot of say in transfers.

What we know certainly points to that fact rather than the fact he has no involvement and he's an innocent victim.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Bit of a copout to be honest when all the evidence points to him having a lot of control.

he asked me what evidence i have for the schwarzer part of my post. i told him.

he asked me what evidence i have for the alonso part of my post. i told him.

i guess he kept beating around the bush until he could get to the point where he could reply with 'well as you dont know that part im right and this argument ends here'.

which is exactly what he did :lol:

[Özim]

Cos he actually cares for the club would be one reason. He's put a LOT of work into Arsenal and if speaking out about the backroom squabbling would harm the club (which it probably would imo) or put him out of work, I don't think he'd do that.
Wenger does care for the club, he also cares for his players an awful lot (always seems to put their needs first), on top of that he cares about his principles too much.

I don't deny he cares, he's however blinded by other factors and this leads him to making poor decisions for the club he cares about, which in turn affect the club negatively.

[Boss]

Cos he actually cares for the club would be one reason. He's put a LOT of work into Arsenal and if speaking out about the backroom squabbling would harm the club (which it probably would imo) or put him out of work, I don't think he'd do that.

That doesn't make sense as all the 'backroom squabbling' if it exists is actually harming the club on the pitch with no trophies in the last 6 years.

I honestly think he just has too much faith in the players he has / players he signs and believes they will come good and prove everyone wrong eventually, which is why he sticks with them.

[Özim]

he asked me what evidence i have for the schwarzer part of my post. i told him.

he asked me what evidence i have for the alonso part of my post. i told him.

i guess he kept beating around the bush until he could get to the point where he could reply with 'well as you dont know that part im right and this argument ends here'.

which is exactly what he did :lol:
I agree you provided answers to his questions which were perfectly reasonable.

The evidence you provided is as concrete as you're going to get without physically being involved in the running of the club!

[Özim]

I honestly think he just has too much faith in the players he has / players he signs and believes they will come good and prove everyone wrong eventually, which is why he sticks with them.
His faith in his players is a real weakness IMO, they seem to be all important ironically many of them just lose faith or move on when the opportunity arrives and yet he never learns.

He evens turns against the fans and blames the problems on them rather than his own players as the Adebayor scenario highlighted, as a consequence they never have to take responsibility for their actions.

He's totally blinded by this belief in his players, to the detriment of the club.

[BOBN]

There's no evidence for the alonso and schwarzer stuff, you people have just pulled whatever you want out of your arse.

The way the board, which has proven over the years to be a tight board, get off scott-free, is laughable.

[Darth Vela]

That doesn't make sense as all the 'backroom squabbling' if it exists is actually harming the club on the pitch with no trophies in the last 6 years.

I honestly think he just has too much faith in the players he has / players he signs and believes they will come good and prove everyone wrong eventually, which is why he sticks with them.

It only seems to have become a problem recently, after the debt started getting repaid and the Highbury development resolved itself, before that it was obvious that they were in it together imo.

I think he does tend to have more faith in players than other managers, some repay it like Song/RvP/Wilshere/Szczesny but some don't, like Bendtner and Denilson, it can be a flaw as well as a strength but it's served us pretty well so far (last 2 seasons aside).

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Bit of a copout to be honest when all the evidence points to him having a lot of control.

It might point to him having control don't mean it does, just as the Police might have evidence to say that man down the street is a murderer don't mean he is tbh.


Not saying the man Does not have power at the club he does and anyone to deny that would be foolish. However i think he as much power as Fegurson and kenny and Redknapp.

But i don't think he has the board over the barrel, if he did then he would not be looking so stressed, or look like a man fealful for his job.
something deep is going on at the club and it goes beyone Wenger, though he has not helped the situation by being quiet maybe.

[Letters]

The evidence you provided is as concrete as you're going to get without physically being involved in the running of the club!

What, an ex-Liverpool player saying it? :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

This talk of Wenger being in full control just doesn't make any sense, not from a real world perspective anyway. A guy like Kroenke does not kick in the hundreds of millions required to pay off the shareholders and then turn to the manager and cede all control. That's just not how things work in the business world. What's the point in basing any argument on the idea that Wenger has full control of the club when that can't possibly be true?

[Özim]

What, an ex-Liverpool player saying it? :lol:
Well there's no reason for him to lie is there?

Why would he lie about a tranfer of a player from his club to another club not working out due to financial differences exactly?

[Letters]

Not lie, but how does he know what happens at board level, who handles transfer negotiations, what the transfer budget is, what say Wenger has about that etc, etc.

[Darth Vela]

This talk of Wenger being in full control just doesn't make any sense, not from a real world perspective anyway. A guy like Kroenke does not kick in the hundreds of millions required to pay off the shareholders and then turn to the manager and cede all control. That's just not how things work in the business world. What's the point in basing any argument on the idea that Wenger has full control of the club when that can't possibly be true?

I dunno, maybe because if that is the case it's a nice easy fix as we simply sack Wenger but if it's the board and owner at fault then it's very complicated and we're pretty fucked, I know which I'd rather believe.

[Özim]

Not lie, but how does he know what happens at board level, who handles transfer negotiations, what the transfer budget is, what say Wenger has about that etc, etc.
He was talking about the Alonso transfer, which I'm sure he knew plenty about.

I don't see any reason to doubt his words here, if he didn't know why would he even say that?

[Letters]

What does he know, that price was the sticking point? Maybe it was but...well, all the stuff I said.
Also see Niall_Quinn's posts as he's putting things better than I can

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

well yeah, you could spin it off as simply an 'ex liverpool player', making it sound like he's a paul merson to arsenal or a dwight yorke to man utd to fit into your argument.

or you could see that he's been a huge part of liverpool throughout his career, has been for a number of years in terms of management too, and clearly still keeps in touch with people at the club. you dont need to know a board member to get info, especially if you have the status phil thompson has at liverpool

and noone ever said he knew our budget, stop making things up.

its common knowledge wenger didnt want to pay £16m for alonso, but if you want to sit there and act or pretend as if he did, or that the reason we didnt want to sign alonso was because of something else, then no problem. but wake up to reality.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

This talk of Wenger being in full control just doesn't make any sense, not from a real world perspective anyway. A guy like Kroenke does not kick in the hundreds of millions required to pay off the shareholders and then turn to the manager and cede all control. That's just not how things work in the business world. What's the point in basing any argument on the idea that Wenger has full control of the club when that can't possibly be true?

why not? as long as arsenal fc are making a profit, he's happy.

its been the norm of our board for a long time.

[Letters]

This talk of Wenger being in full control just doesn't make any sense, not from a real world perspective anyway. A guy like Kroenke does not kick in the hundreds of millions required to pay off the shareholders and then turn to the manager and cede all control. That's just not how things work in the business world. What's the point in basing any argument on the idea that Wenger has full control of the club when that can't possibly be true?

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

When nothing else makes sense simply look for the tell-tale signs of who has gained and who has lost. The shareholders have gained massively, for very little investment and risk. So they are the big winners. Kroenke stands to gain potentially more if the debts are secure. He's bought a CL club with its own world class stadium, a large fan base and a healthy balance sheet. In football terms the ideal investment EVEN IF THE CLUB BEGINS TO DO BADLY ON THE PITCH. Remember the Channel 4 documentary that exposed the foreign ownership scam. What were they looking for above all else? Clubs on the wane that for a small investment could be turned into cash cows, in the short term at least. We don't know the details of Kroenke's takeover so we can't really speak about the levels of risk he has taken on. But if he's managed to hedge those risks by whatever method we can say that Stan is set to be a big winner too. And face it, why would he even bother if that's not the case? Is it a love of Arsenal?

So who has lost. That's simple to see because it's more in the open. The team has lost, not the individual players but the quality and entertainment value of the team as a whole. With ticket prices up and value for money down, the fans have been the big losers. People getting fucked over by the rich, so what's new there? And there's one other loser. A man who is undergoing the process of seeing his five star reputation transformed into a vehicle for the tabloids to shift their daily rags, Arsene Wenger, the "Wally Without the Brolly". He's mad you know.

If I had to guess, what we're experiencing here is withdrawal symptoms. We've just spent the best part of a half a decade being fucked by the shareholders in preparation for the big sell-off. Now that's happened there's an empty space where PHW and friends used to plant their tools. That space is ready for some American style fresh meat. So get ready because I'm betting what went before was just foreplay.

[Kano]

well yeah if you wanna end it like that to fit your argument then fine. and if you want to be ignorant enough to think wenger has not got full control of our club when it's blatantly obvious he has, then thats fine too.

you honestly believe a man would invest hundreds of millions into a business and leave the company under full control of somebody else? absolutely no way.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

you honestly believe a man would invest hundreds of millions into a business and the company under full control of somebody else? absolutely no way.

but you're making it sound like arsenal fc are like any run of the mill company on the high street. sure if you buy nandos you can sack the manager for being on his high horse and having too much control.

but we are a football club.
we have been making profit for a number of years and silent stan loves that. why invest hundreds of millions of pounds, then change things and give wenger less control, or go against what he has done so far, when the club has been making $$$. why change things when stan wants to make money, and we are/have been?

[Boss]

Wenger would not stay if all the various nonsense being spouted above was true.

[Kano]

but you're making it sound like arsenal fc are like any run of the mill company on the high street. sure if you buy nandos you can sack the manager for being on his high horse and having too much control.

but we are a football club.
we have been making profit for a number of years and silent stan loves that. why invest hundreds of millions of pounds, then change things and give wenger less control, or go against what he has done so far, when the club has been making $$$. why change things when stan wants to make money, and we are/have been?

the whole point is, the agenda for the club and for any business is set out by the ceo in collaboration with the chairman/owners and everyone falls into place from that. the whole business strategy would not be composed and laid out by a lower level director (equivalent to wenger). the lucky thing is and why the board love wenger so much is because his approach to football is in sync with their business model.

[Niall_Quinn]

why not? as long as arsenal fc are making a profit, he's happy.

its been the norm of our board for a long time.

The manager being allowed to proceed because the board is in agreement with the course of action being taken is not the same thing as the manager having control. But it does raise one important dilemma in terms of the argument put forth that all of our woes are down to Wenger. If that's the case, why does the board sit on its hands or hide out on the other side of the world? It can only be because they are happy we are slipping down the league, happy our players are leaving, happy we collapse at the end of every season. Or at very least they are not concerned enough to act. Or perhaps they are entirely incompetent. Whichever way you look at it the board is in this just as deeply as Wenger. And my whole argument these past few days has been based around the fact there's a definite move to paint Wenger as being solely responsible, the buck stops with him, so to speak. How convenient for all concerned, remove one man and everything is fixed. And how convenient that those equally responsible for our downturn are suddenly in the clear without having paid any penalty either practical or in terms of their reputation. It would be a travesty if this becomes Wenger's reward in return for what he has done for this club. A travesty enacted all so a few newspapers can be shifted, a few rich men can secure their seats on the gravy train and a growing body of fans can be appeased, albeit through misdirection. As fans we need to be very careful which way we jump.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

why not? as long as arsenal fc are making a profit, he's happy.

its been the norm of our board for a long time.

Thats more of the old board then Stan tbh. Until the end of the season we won't really know his objectives tbh.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

seems like most of you cannot accept the fact someone as intelligent as arsene, who once put an invincibles team together, can make mistakes that have put us in the position we are in. almost as if it 'must' be the board restricting his bidding/wage offering/general lack of transfer activity. if so, when did this start? this season when stan got full control of our club? if so, why hasnt wenger walked? he has always said the day he would walk would be the day a higher level individual restricts what he wants to do. if stan came in, changed things around, or someone on the board isnt allowing him to buy players at the wages/price he wants to anymore, wenger would have made it clear and walked. like he always said he would. he has always himself said he has full control of the club hence why he would never go to a team like real madrid.

if this all started prior to this summer, then why is it being so strictly upheld now, when our team needs experience more than any other time before? we've signed arshavin, vermaelen, nasri etc in the past, all who have been experienced players. why cant wenger go and so the same now? he can find players for £10m and put them on 80k a week. in no way does this break our budget or smash our transfer record fees.

fact is we arent doing that, instead we are splashing £15m on a league 1 player. did the board advocate that? no, wenger did. so stop acting as if somethings restricting him because to me it looks like there isnt. if anything its probably fiszman and dein not being on the board for the first time in 25 years, and the current lot havent the foggiest on how to run the club.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Wenger would not stay if all the various nonsense being spouted above was true.

All managers would, do you think fergie was happy with Glazer gate why did he stay? Wenger has never been one to critize the ones who pay him especially for the ones who attack him every day.

[Boss]

All managers would, do you think fergie was happy with Glazer gate why did he stay? Wenger has never been one to critize the ones who pay him especially for the ones who attack him every day.

All managers would? Bullshit.

When was Ferguson restricted? Name one player he wanted to buy but wasn't allowed to by the board? Thanks.

If you believe press rumours there is only one season he wasn't allowed to spend and that was the season they banked 80M from the Ronaldo sale. However they still got in replacements for those that left and still did reasonably well.

As said above, these restrictions suddenly appearing seem a very convenient excuse for us trying to bank 50M and not spend on anyone of real quality this summer.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

All managers would? Bullshit.

When was Ferguson restricted? Name one player he wanted to buy but wasn't allowed to by the board? Thanks.

If you believe press rumours there is only one season he wasn't allowed to spend and that was the season they banked 80M from the Ronaldo sale. However they still got in replacements for those that left and still did reasonably well.

As said above, these restrictions suddenly appearing seem a very convenient excuse for us trying to bank 50M and not spend on anyone of real quality this summer.

Come on now, UTD never had money for the last few season thats why they never spent tbh, But fergir trusted his board and got results thats the diffrence.

I Can't tell you why we have not spent on qualtty this season and we'd never know till someone speaks out i suppose.

[Kano]

seems like most of you cannot accept the fact someone as intelligent as arsene, who once put an invincibles team together, can make mistakes that have put us in the position we are in. almost as if it 'must' be the board restricting his bidding/wage offering/general lack of transfer activity. if so, when did this start? this season when stan got full control of our club? if so, why hasnt wenger walked? he has always said the day he would walk would be the day a higher level individual restricts what he wants to do. if stan came in, changed things around, or someone on the board isnt allowing him to buy players at the wages/price he wants to anymore, wenger would have made it clear and walked. like he always said he would. he has always himself said he has full control of the club hence why he would never go to a team like real madrid.

if this all started prior to this summer, then why is it being so strictly upheld now, when our team needs experience more than any other time before? we've signed arshavin, vermaelen, nasri etc in the past, all who have been experienced players. why cant wenger go and so the same now? he can find players for £10m and put them on 80k a week. in no way does this break our budget or smash our transfer record fees.

fact is we arent doing that, instead we are splashing £15m on a league 1 player. did the board advocate that? no, wenger did. so stop acting as if somethings restricting him because to me it looks like there isnt. if anything its probably fiszman and dein not being on the board for the first time in 25 years, and the current lot havent the foggiest on how to run the club.

from what i've been reading on recent pages that isn't the position of people.

i don't know whether this rumour is true or not, but it's just basic logical sense that a manager would not be in complete control of a multi million pound strategy for a business. Absolutely no way. wenger has to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch and he has had money to spend.

also, where did he say he would walk if someone else was blocking him doing what he wanted to? he has said he would walk if undermined but that is completely different.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

from what i've been reading on recent pages that isn't the position of people.

i don't know whether this rumour is true or not, but it's just basic logical sense that a manager would not be in complete control of a multi million pound strategy for a business. Absolutely no way. wenger has to take responsibility for what happens on the pitch and he has had money to spend.

also, where did he say he would walk if someone else was blocking him doing what he wanted to? he has said he would walk if undermined but that is completely different.

we arent any club. we are arsenal.
and wenger isnt any manager. he has transformed our club.

slowly over the years he has gained more control of the club and its dealings, whether on or off the pitch. thats common knowledge. you think wenger has the exact same responsibilities and control now as he had when he first started in 1996? come on man open your eyes.

as for the 2nd part, we've all read it over the past few years, i cant give you an exact date as to when he said it. around the time madrid came knocking and also when we were constantly linked to being taken over.

[Power n Glory]

This is crazy. If you won't believe a word Wenger says about his philosphy on football and transfers then at least look at what he's doing on the pitch. They say judge a man on his actions and not on his word.

Wenger says he firmly believes in developing young players. This isn't something born out of circumstance, this is his belief.
If he felt that Denilson was an under par player, he wouldn't give him the time of day. He wouldn't defend his performances and say he's underrated and wouldn't keep picking him game after game even though he keeps making the same mistakes.
He hasn't bought for key positions because he wants to give them a chance. He's not showing so much faith and confidence in them because he has no choice. Look how he finally gave up on Eboue and bought a right back, a back up right back and shifted him out of the squad.

The story about the wages and transfers makes no sense either. Before we can talk about wages we have to agree a transfer fee. Clubs are rejecting our bids so how can this all boil down to our wage structure?

He may have gotten into a spat with the board over the wage structure to keep certain players, I can imagine that happening, but that's just papering over the cracks. Fabs, Nas and Clichy want out because the club isn't buying and showing too much faith in young players that have no Prem experience.

[Özim]

Come on now, UTD never had money for the last few season thats why they never spent tbh, But fergir trusted his board and got results thats the diffrence.

I Can't tell you why we have not spent on qualtty this season and we'd never know till someone speaks out i suppose.
They spent but not huge amounts, but then they kept winning trophies so maybe they didn't need to.

After last season it was clear players were needed, guess what...this summer they spent money.

[The Wengerbabies]

No and its really sad to see what he has done to the club.

[Kano]

slowly over the years he has gained more control of the club and its dealings, whether on or off the pitch. thats common knowledge. you think wenger has the exact same responsibilities and control now as he had when he first started in 1996? come on man open your eyes.

as for the 2nd part, we've all read it over the past few years, i cant give you an exact date as to when he said it. around the time madrid came knocking and also when we were constantly linked to being taken over.

of course his responsibilities have grown but he does not control the club strategy, no lower level director (and that's what he is) would do so.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/2956629/Arsene-Wenger-I-would-quit-Arsenal-if-my-authority-was-compromised-Football.html

2008/09 was when madrid last came sniffing

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

of course his responsibilities have grown but he does not control the club strategy, no lower level director (and that's what he is) would do so.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/2956629/Arsene-Wenger-I-would-quit-Arsenal-if-my-authority-was-compromised-Football.html

2008/09 was when madrid last came sniffing

'but he does not control the club strategy, no lower level director (and that's what he is) would do so.'

are you out of your mind? you're comparing a football club to any other business. a manager at a football has 100 times more responsibility and control than a manager on the high street. can you not see that? when wenger first came, he probably did not have control over club strategy or control off the pitch, but over the years he won trophies and gained the trust of the board, and now he clearly has. you earn the trust of the board and wenger done that, so now has full control. the board trust him and if you cant see that then this debate can go no further.

was it wenger who advocated this youth project, yes or no? yes. therefore he has controlled the club strategy. something you said he cant.

also from the link you posted, ""It looks like managers have less of a say but I will go on my way if that happened.". If that doesnt state that if someone blocked him doing what he wanted to do he would walk, then i dont know what is.

[Kano]

sure a manager on the high street but that has no relevance here, as i keep stating, his level is equivalent to a lower level director. it's unbelievable that you think someone would invest and let someone lower down control their strategy. it is a business, don't forget that.

what you're doing here is confusing their belief in his strategies that have returned stacks of money for shareholders to flog off, with the idea that he is dictating it all. put in simple terms, the board and the manager agree on many many things, so why would they be blocking his ideas around the pitch?

selective quoting from that link. he says that he would go if undermined and that he has control of all the technical aspects (ie the team). that doesn't mean he tells the board what to spend, if they say no, then it's no but it probably hasn't happened much, as he likes to do it all on the cheap and they love it.

[Letters]

You're saying Wenger has full control of the club and that no-one else is involved with the club's direction or transfer dealings?
Seriously?

As for 'project youth', why did he do that? Because he wanted to? Because the board imposed transfer restrictions on him? What? I don't know.

Again, you're claiming far more knowledge of what's going on at board level in the club than you actually have.

[Power n Glory]

Was it Wenger that championed the idea of building new training faculties, setting up the academy and building the Emirates so we'd be able to compete with best clubs in the world?

If he had so much of an influence on what we've built over the years, how can he all of sudden be relegated to some sort of puppet and 'yes' man?

He doesn't have full control but he's a very influential figure. As soon as he arrived we moved up the food chain. Now as everything is falling apart it's as if he has no power.

[Letters]

If he had so much of an influence on what we've built over the years, how can he all of sudden be relegated to some sort of puppet and 'yes' man?

no-one has argued that.


He doesn't have full control but he's a very influential figure.

Agreed.


Now as everything is falling apart it's as if he has no power

Again, no-one is saying that.

[Joker]

I've said before that Wenger is a free market fundamentalist and this is no exaggeration. He had already complained about the imposition of the 50p tax rate, and when he said that it was a prime example of him becoming obsessively concerned with financial considerations and forgetting that football takes primacy, especially for fans. "Project Youth" wasn't a project in idealism, it was a project that would allow him to put his free market philosophy into practice.

Think about it, this project involves a lot of market transactions, buying up young players from all around the world, as if they're commodities to be traded on the international transfer market. When Arsenal supporters who are also shareholders complain at the AGM about our lack of progress as a club in the last 5 years, he points out that shareholders have the least to complain about, since they've had a good return on their investment. He claims qualifying for the Champions League is equal to winning trophies because he sees things purely through a narrow economic prism, and therefore the rewards of UCL qualification in monetary terms outweighs the monetary rewards of winning, for example, the FA Cup.

What Wenger has forgotten in the last 5 years is that most supporters are not such free market extremists, and care about things beyond the bottom line. This is the reason why the board are so loyal to Wenger. This is because Wenger shares their belief in the free market and the commodification of football. People like these fail to understand the value we attach to concepts like heritage, tradition, community values etc etc. You can't place a market value on these things, even though as Arsenal fans they mean a lot to us and in many ways define Arsenal FC and what makes us unique as an institution. This is why PHW and Wenger criticise fans and make subtle digs at our intelligence. In reality, it's not our intelligence that is inferior to Wenger and the board, but our value sets that are diametrically opposite.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

sure a manager on the high street but that has no relevance here, as i keep stating, his level is equivalent to a lower level director. it's unbelievable that you think someone would invest and let someone lower down control their strategy. it is a business, don't forget that.

what you're doing here is confusing their belief in his strategies that have returned stacks of money for shareholders to flog off, with the idea that he is dictating it all. put in simple terms, the board and the manager agree on many many things, so why would they be blocking his ideas around the pitch?

selective quoting from that link. he says that he would go if undermined and that he has control of all the technical aspects (ie the team). that doesn't mean he tells the board what to spend, if they say no, then it's no but it probably hasn't happened much, as he likes to do it all on the cheap and they love it.

why would a new owner go against wenger when the club is making profit? noone seems to be answering that one. we are making profit, wenger is in charge, why would stan change this strategy and go against wenger which is what some of you are implying.

i also never said they are blocking his ideas around the pitch. where did you get that from? im saying they arent blocking anything and its wenger who has chosen not to spend on experience. whilst some of you are saying it 'must' be down to board, as your beloved wenger cant suddenly have gone mad.


You're saying Wenger has full control of the club and that no-one else is involved with the club's direction or transfer dealings?
Seriously?

As for 'project youth', why did he do that? Because he wanted to? Because the board imposed transfer restrictions on him? What? I don't know.

Again, you're claiming far more knowledge of what's going on at board level in the club than you actually have.

no stop talking rubbish. i said he has full control over the club not that noone else does anything, or that people dont suggest ideas/how to deal with transfers/wages. this does not mean there arent people who help out or do the work for him. but wenger runs the rule of everything. in that sense, he has full control.

as for the youth project, wenger quite openly admits he decided to go youth because he saw the trend towards takeovers and teams spending millions, and knew we couldnt compete. thats not claiming to know board level information, its simple, open information available to anyone. so dont imply things that simply arent true.

http://arsenal-mania.com/articles/3109861/The-vindication-of-Wengers-youth-policy.html

"The decision was to go for more youth when we decided to build a new stadium because we are not in a position where we could spend £30m or £40m on players," said Wenger. "Whether people accept it or not is one thing but, today, we have a good side, we make profit and we pay our debtors back. People are scandalised when banks lose money but I'm scandalised when football clubs lose money. For me it's the same process. I'm not against spending money; I'm against losing money."

[Olivier's xmas twist]

I've said before that Wenger is a free market fundamentalist and this is no exaggeration. He had already complained about the imposition of the 50p tax rate, and when he said that it was a prime example of him becoming obsessively concerned with financial considerations and forgetting that football takes primacy, especially for fans. "Project Youth" wasn't a project in idealism, it was a project that would allow him to put his free market philosophy into practice.

Think about it, this project involves a lot of market transactions, buying up young players from all around the world, as if they're commodities to be traded on the international transfer market. When Arsenal supporters who are also shareholders complain at the AGM about our lack of progress as a club in the last 5 years, he points out that shareholders have the least to complain about, since they've had a good return on their investment. He claims qualifying for the Champions League is equal to winning trophies because he sees things purely through a narrow economic prism, and therefore the rewards of UCL qualification in monetary terms outweighs the monetary rewards of winning, for example, the FA Cup.

What Wenger has forgotten in the last 5 years is that most supporters are not such free market extremists, and care about things beyond the bottom line. This is the reason why the board are so loyal to Wenger. This is because Wenger shares their belief in the free market and the commodification of football. People likes these fail to understand the value we attach to concepts like heritage, tradition, community values etc etc. You can't place a market value on these things, even though as Arsenal fans they mean a lot to us and in many ways define Arsenal FC and what makes us unique as an institution. This is why PHW and Wenger criticise fans and make subtle digs at our intelligence. It reality, it's not our intelligence that is inferior to Wenger and the board, but our values sets that are diametrically opposite.

free market fundamentalist :bow:

[Joker]

"The decision was to go for more youth when we decided to build a new stadium because we are not in a position where we could spend £30m or £40m on players," said Wenger. "Whether people accept it or not is one thing but, today, we have a good side, we make profit and we pay our debtors back. People are scandalised when banks lose money but I'm scandalised when football clubs lose money. For me it's the same process. I'm not against spending money; I'm against losing money."

This quote again highlights that Wenger is treating Arsenal FC as purely a business, by repeatedly pointing ot how we are paying our debtors back, how we make profit etc. I'm not saying that paying our debts is a bad thing (of course it's a very important aspect of any institution) but he fails to mention that football is ABOUT MORE THAN THE FINANCIAL BOTTOM LINE! Nowhere does he mention in this quote about understanding the fans frustrations at failing to compete for trophies (which is different from demanding that we silverware every season, which no fan has ever done)

[Letters]

no stop talking rubbish. i said he has full control over the club not that noone else does anything, or that people dont suggest ideas/how to deal with transfers/wages. this does not mean there arent people who help out or do the work for him. but wenger runs the rule of everything. in that sense, he has full control.

And how do you know that?

[Power n Glory]

no-one has argued that.



Agreed.



Again, no-one is saying that.

No, but Wenger comes out and says that he firmly believes in growing a team ‘organically’ and people have a problem with what he’s been saying for years and looking for other reasons why he’s failing. I see people trying to disassociate him from what’s going on around the club.

If you’re going to say what people have posted is all speculation, then just look at what’s been built over the years, what Wenger’s philosophy is all about, how he fell from grace at Monaco, what he’s telling the fans right now, he’s not speaking in code and we have the answer.

He believes he’s doing the right thing.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

And how do you know that?

:lol: picking apart parts of my post again to try and get an upperhand. done it 2 pages ago and doing it again.

how do i know that? im using my brain. im looking at the obvious, using my judgement, and listening to people in and around the club who have spoken in the past. its common knowledge wenger has a lot more control than other managers do at any other club. but you can sit there and deny it, or paint a picture where wenger has little control.

as another poster said, its a copout.

[Letters]

"I don't, I'm speculating" would have done. :shrug:

[Flavs]

"I don't, I'm speculating" would have done. :shrug:

:lol:

BAM!!

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

how do you know hes not in full control?

wake up and smell the coffee pal.

edit: done what you done earlier and waited until there was a single point throughout the argument you could capitalise on to end the argument again :lol: i should start doing that.

[Niall_Quinn]

how do you know hes not in full control?

wake up and smell the coffee pal.

Because businesses aren't structured that way and Arsenal is a business. It's really no more complicated than that. Influence, yes. Control? Impossible.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

its only impossible to fit into your argument. otherwise its a perfectly sane argument and judgement to make, especially the way this club has been run over the past few years.

[Boss]

1. Wenger's never been one to spend big money on players - he prefers to buy his own and develop them. Even when he's bought high profile players in the past, it has been players on frees or at low prices (Klinsmann and Hoddle at Monaco, Campbell, Rosicky and Overmars with us). Everyone remembers the 'if we gave him 100M he'd give it back' quote and IIRC Wenger's gone on record saying that he prefers to make good players rather than buy them.

2. Most of our 'large' signings have been in the 10-15M range, which the board has all sanctioned. The board has backed Wenger in the past for relatively 'big money' moves - Nasri, Arshavin, Reyes, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gervinho, even the bids for Baptista+Robinho and all of those apart from Arshavin and maybe Gervinho are/were project players rather than finished product.

It doesn't make sense that the board would sanction loads of bids for project players but not sanction lesser/equal bids for established players. Wenger has a lot more control over the financial side of transfers than managers at other clubs do and this has only increased since Dein left. He's also mentioned in the past that he prefers younger players due to their sell on value and it's no coincidence that every one of our 'big money' buys was under 25 years old (apart from Arshavin of course, a notable exception for the reason he was bought). Wenger also prefers to buy from outside the Premiership (fact) and believes that transfer values within the Premiership are inflated (he's stated this before iirc). Our only transfers from within the PL in the last 10 years have been Silvestre (750k), Campbell twice (free), Diarra (2-4M) and Gallas (part of the Cole transfer).

Basically - why would the board sanction 15M for Nasri but not 16M for Alonso? Or 4M for Denilson but not 2M for Schwarzer? That is down to Wenger I'd believe.

Some background reading that should back up some of the above:


Former Arsenal managing director Keith Edelman believes Arsene Wenger is missing the influence of former chief executive David Dein.

Edelman says Dein was the missing link in Wenger's management team.

"During the years we were successful there was an alliance of people at the top who made the club successful - that was David Dein, Arsene and myself," he told the Mail on Sunday. "I ran the business side and David and Arsene ran the football side. David did a phenomenal job for the club and I think they miss David's role in encouraging Arsene.

"Arsene is naturally cautious and David was always very ambitious for the club. Look at Sol Campbell and how important he was and how expensive he was as an acquisition at a key moment when he won us a lot of trophies. [Campbell signed on a free transfer, but his wages and signing-on fees amounted to about £6million a year, at the time an unprecedented commitment.] I don't see that now.

"David was also a great networker. Together with Arsene, David would look at players and get into a position where he felt comfortable [spending money on them]. I used to sit in the boardroom and hear Arsene say, 'If you want to win the Premier League, you have to have a world-class goalkeeper'.

"Well, if that's what he believes, has he actually delivered that? David's importance is probably underestimated as he would make sure we now had a world-class goalkeeper.

"The demise of David is probably the reason why [Arsenal have not won more trophies], that and the fact that they haven't made some key signings at some key moments.

"There needs to be someone to understand the management that you have and to encourage them in their weak points and support them on that. Arsene is a naturally cautious man and, like any manager, he always thinks that his current management team is better than they actually are."

http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/ex-arsenal-chief-edelmen-wenger-has-missed-dein-transfer-influence-1589991

and


'Barry is a good player, but the problem with players who are 27 or 28 is that you pay big money and then you get nothing back.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1047900/Barry-bound-Arsenal-Wenger-eyeing-Villa-star-Liverpool-reject-10m-Alonso-bid.html#ixzz1VlXfy2eT

[Kano]

why would a new owner go against wenger when the club is making profit? noone seems to be answering that one. we are making profit, wenger is in charge, why would stan change this strategy and go against wenger which is what some of you are implying.

i also never said they are blocking his ideas around the pitch. where did you get that from? im saying they arent blocking anything and its wenger who has chosen not to spend on experience. whilst some of you are saying it 'must' be down to board, as your beloved wenger cant suddenly have gone mad.

see this the blind alley you keep running down. i'm certainly not looking for excuses for wenger (beloved? come on man, grow up. you'll be talking about cliques and all that gay shit soon) and i'm not excusing his spending decisions or the issues around the team.

what i am and will continue to refute is the idea that a man who owns several business' would invest a sizeable amount into another one and then let a lower level director fully control it's direction. it would never ever happen, unless he really didn't care about his money.

[Boss]

Wenger is hardly a 'low level director', given he's directly linked to most of the profit the club makes.

Let's not keep using that silly phrase please, thanks.

[Flavs]

I always thought that managers submitted a list of players to the board that they wanted to sign and the board went off and got/didnt get them.

huh

[Kano]

Wenger is hardly a 'low level director', given he's directly linked to most of the profit the club makes.

Let's not keep using that silly phrase please, thanks.

compared to a chairman or ceo, then yes he clearly is

a sales/marketing director is heavily linked to a business' income, do you think he's running the show over a ceo?

[Niall_Quinn]

see this the blind alley you keep running down. i'm certainly not looking for excuses for wenger (beloved? come on man, grow up. you'll be talking about cliques and all that gay shit soon) and i'm not excusing his spending decisions or the issues around the team.

what i am and will continue to refute is the idea that a man who owns several business' would invest a sizeable amount into another one and then let a lower level director fully control it's direction. it would never ever happen, unless he really didn't care about his money.

Agree with that. This isn't a Wenger love-in, it's a question as to whether we should keep Wenger as manager. And if you ask that question and decide the answer is no, then you have to ask the question why do you want to get rid of him. If it's just for football reasons then I guess that's fair enough, but if it's because of this idea that Wenger runs the whole club from top to bottom then I'd said that's a poor reason because the assumption he controls everything cannot be true. Therefore he cannot be solely responsible for the problems we face and neither will it be a comprehensive nor instant solution should he be removed. What I'm saying is get your reasons straight for wanting him out and then be aware there's a whole other group who want him gone just for entertainment purposes and they'll be using you to hide behind and justify their actions in sticking the knife in.

[fakeyank]

You talk of the Arsene Wenger of old, not the one of the last six years. The biggest inconsistency with our transfer dealings this summer is the signing of AOC for 15M.

If Arsenal have a limited transfer budget, then surely that 15M would be put to better use on players that could fit into the team now, instead of being wasted on someone that likely won't have an impact for at least 2-3 years.

If the issue is down to wages as suggested by some, surely moves for various EPL players at standard (non top-6) clubs would not cause us to break any wage system structure and still improve the side.

That we're still having the same defensive issues as six years ago is down to Wenger and no one else.

That we've bought just two players from the English top flight in the last ten years is down to Wenger and no one else.

As for the question asked, I'd assume the same was asked in response to Nottingham Forest fans questioning the decisions Clough made before he got the club relegated.

In fact, the statement on Wikipedia reads very similar to what's happening to us...



They started that season better than we've started this as well.

Not saying Wenger will get us relegated as that's silly, but quality wise we have less in reserve than most sides in the top ten and this season could be a lot worse than people are assuming.

I think that only Wenger could pick up some of the players he's found on the fees he's paid for them, but quite a few managers could get more out of them tactically.

Lettuce bhaiya, there you go! :gp:

OAC doesnt make sense. Plus players like Samba, Parker who are a clear upgrade on the dross we have and also wouldnt be wanting 100K in wages! We get OAC.. I do know that his payment is not exactly 15 million- 5 million this season and other payments over appearances etc etc.. however a Scott Parker would cost 7-8 million or a Enrique wouldve cost 6! The truth is that AW wants project youth to succeed and he is a bloody stubborn man. The day he accepts that project youth is a failure, thats the day may be we will see the AW of old... till then.. :cry:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Lettuce bhaiya, there you go! :gp:

OAC doesnt make sense. Plus players like Samba, Parker who are a clear upgrade on the dross we have and also wouldnt be wanting 100K in wages! We get OAC.. I do know that his payment is not exactly 15 million- 5 million this season and other payments over appearances etc etc.. however a Scott Parker would cost 7-8 million or a Enrique wouldve cost 6! The truth is that AW wants project youth to succeed and he is a bloody stubborn man. The day he accepts that project youth is a failure, thats the day may be we will see the AW of old... till then.. :cry:

Yer Ma.

[fakeyank]

If that was the case why would Wenger tolerate it?

Can't see him as the martyr destroying his reputation for the sake of a few old men making a lot of money.

As much as I would love to wish that the restrictions (not buying top players) were imposed by the board because it is devastating watching Wenger decline from the man who created the Invincibles to the man that gave Denilson 150+ appearances, logically I can't see that to be the case given his actions in the past.

My man, you are killing it. Asian clique kicking some kundi! :cool:

[fakeyank]

When nothing else makes sense simply look for the tell-tale signs of who has gained and who has lost. The shareholders have gained massively, for very little investment and risk. So they are the big winners. Kroenke stands to gain potentially more if the debts are secure. He's bought a CL club with its own world class stadium, a large fan base and a healthy balance sheet. In football terms the ideal investment EVEN IF THE CLUB BEGINS TO DO BADLY ON THE PITCH. Remember the Channel 4 documentary that exposed the foreign ownership scam. What were they looking for above all else? Clubs on the wane that for a small investment could be turned into cash cows, in the short term at least. We don't know the details of Kroenke's takeover so we can't really speak about the levels of risk he has taken on. But if he's managed to hedge those risks by whatever method we can say that Stan is set to be a big winner too. And face it, why would he even bother if that's not the case? Is it a love of Arsenal?

So who has lost. That's simple to see because it's more in the open. The team has lost, not the individual players but the quality and entertainment value of the team as a whole. With ticket prices up and value for money down, the fans have been the big losers. People getting fucked over by the rich, so what's new there? And there's one other loser. A man who is undergoing the process of seeing his five star reputation transformed into a vehicle for the tabloids to shift their daily rags, Arsene Wenger, the "Wally Without the Brolly". He's mad you know.

If I had to guess, what we're experiencing here is withdrawal symptoms. We've just spent the best part of a half a decade being fucked by the shareholders in preparation for the big sell-off. Now that's happened there's an empty space where PHW and friends used to plant their tools. That space is ready for some American style fresh meat. So get ready because I'm betting what went before was just foreplay.

Yup, blame it on the Americans! Having said all that, just answer some questions, Why is Wenger still here? Why not quit? Why did he extend his contract from 2011 to 2014? Cant he hear the boos? Why is tarnishing his reputation for an 'American'?

Oh, and AW hasnt been spending before the American became the majority stake holder at Arsenal. Easy to blame the American but its the french c*ck F'in the club up!

[fakeyank]

Come on now, UTD never had money for the last few season thats why they never spent tbh, But fergir trusted his board and got results thats the diffrence.

I Can't tell you why we have not spent on qualtty this season and we'd never know till someone speaks out i suppose.

CTG, which side of the fence are you ? Sometimes I feel you are anti-wenger, sometimes I think you are pro-Wenger. I just make out..

[Olivier's xmas twist]

CTG, which side of the fence are you ? Sometimes I feel you are anti-wenger, sometimes I think you are pro-Wenger. I just make out..

Im not Wengers biggest fan by a mile but don't beileve all the shit is down to him. I gots respect for the man but don't always agrew with what he does, and ill say it as i see it a guess.

Just think people want to have a go at the man for any little thing, so they can rant. End of the day the club is in a mess and Wenger/ the board are all to blame

[Boss]

compared to a chairman or ceo, then yes he clearly is

a sales/marketing director is heavily linked to a business' income, do you think he's running the show over a ceo?

You're trying to compare a football club to an ordinary business when they're miles apart.

Comparing the manager of a football club to a sales/marketing director is laughable so let's not go down that track, thanks.

[Kano]

explain why it's laughable instead just offering glib meaningless responses

[fakeyank]

1. Wenger's never been one to spend big money on players - he prefers to buy his own and develop them. Even when he's bought high profile players in the past, it has been players on frees or at low prices (Klinsmann and Hoddle at Monaco, Campbell, Rosicky and Overmars with us). Everyone remembers the 'if we gave him 100M he'd give it back' quote and IIRC Wenger's gone on record saying that he prefers to make good players rather than buy them.

2. Most of our 'large' signings have been in the 10-15M range, which the board has all sanctioned. The board has backed Wenger in the past for relatively 'big money' moves - Nasri, Arshavin, Reyes, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Gervinho, even the bids for Baptista+Robinho and all of those apart from Arshavin and maybe Gervinho are/were project players rather than finished product.

It doesn't make sense that the board would sanction loads of bids for project players but not sanction lesser/equal bids for established players. Wenger has a lot more control over the financial side of transfers than managers at other clubs do and this has only increased since Dein left. He's also mentioned in the past that he prefers younger players due to their sell on value and it's no coincidence that every one of our 'big money' buys was under 25 years old (apart from Arshavin of course, a notable exception for the reason he was bought). Wenger also prefers to buy from outside the Premiership (fact) and believes that transfer values within the Premiership are inflated (he's stated this before iirc). Our only transfers from within the PL in the last 10 years have been Silvestre (750k), Campbell twice (free), Diarra (2-4M) and Gallas (part of the Cole transfer).

Basically - why would the board sanction 15M for Nasri but not 16M for Alonso? Or 4M for Denilson but not 2M for Schwarzer? That is down to Wenger I'd believe.

Some background reading that should back up some of the above:



http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/ex-arsenal-chief-edelmen-wenger-has-missed-dein-transfer-influence-1589991

and

:bow:

You have overtaken NQ as my best poster on GW.

NQ :rose:

[BOBN]

why would a new owner go against wenger when the club is making profit? noone seems to be answering that one. we are making profit, wenger is in charge, why would stan change this strategy and go against wenger which is what some of you are implying.

i also never said they are blocking his ideas around the pitch. where did you get that from? im saying they arent blocking anything and its wenger who has chosen not to spend on experience. whilst some of you are saying it 'must' be down to board, as your beloved wenger cant suddenly have gone mad.
"
Well if you hold this to be true then how dare you put the "demise" of arsenal football club entirely on the shoulders of Wenger?

The owners, the most senior persons at the club, the custodians, are allowing a destructive policy to continue without intervening, because it makes them a few extra bob in the short term? the people who should know better and who dictate the long-term stategy of the club (20 years +) allow a rogue employee "madman" to sell the club down the river, because of money?

Whatever happens the buck stops at the owners, whichever way you want to twist it, the buck stops at the owners. This is their policy, just as a manager takes the flak for under performers being his players.

[Boss]

explain why it's laughable instead just offering glib meaningless responses

Instead of saying Wenger is directly linked to profit, I should have said he is the root of all of the profit we make.

The stadium move was down to his brilliance in the transfer market, and everything about our premier 'product' our business offers (the team) is down to his actions.

He's been here 14~ years and helped shape the club from top to bottom, in the way we're viewed as well as smaller things like fitness, style of play, attractiveness to fans and so on. He's far more influential than some marketing director who decides what stance Theo should be in as he poses for the new shirt.

Not sure how difficult it is to understand why a manager entirely in charge of a club's vision gets far more importance, influence and control than what you'd term a 'low level director' (those of which we also have, and probably decide what colour the urinals in the stadium toilets are).

[fakeyank]

Well if you hold this to be true then how dare you put the "demise" of arsenal football club entirely on the shoulders of Wenger?

The owners, the most senior persons at the club, the custodians, are allowing a destructive policy to continue without intervening, because it makes them a few extra bob in the short term? the people who should know better and who dictate the long-term stategy of the club (20 years +) allow a rogue employee "madman" to sell the club down the river, because of money?

Whatever happens the buck stops at the owners, whichever way you want to twist it, the buck stops at the owners.

I thought in a football club, the buck stops with the manager.. Here, our owner or board have NEVER given any signs where they said that they would not allow Arsene to spend money. A fair amount of people have given quotes where AW does not want to spend money yet there is a conspiracy theory in the background.. frankly its retarded! :lol:
People on here are making the board sound like they are Mike Ashley types. They have always vocally come out and said they will sanction moves that AW require yet the board, the american, the random Bangladeshi are all to blame.. AW is the victim!

As for the part about demise- here is how I look at it. Arsenal as a business is flourishing, we are THE best. Arsenal as a football club is falling rapidly. I see posts from Lettuce where he says that we should be 6th, fighting for 4th easily.. WTF! We should be talking about challenging for titles not talking about 4th place as a trophy. See what AW has done to us?! FFS open your eyes... AW has to leave!

[Cripps_orig]

The poll is closer than i thought it would be

[Boss]

The poll is closer than i thought it would be

All of those votes are down to deluded people like Letters who believe Wenger should be here for the rest of his life. a) hope white text still works and b) waits for Letters to say that he's called for Wenger to go earlier this year

[fakeyank]

The poll is closer than i thought it would be

Surprises me too. I thought he'd have 4-5 votes at most. Seems like 'Wenger love-in' flu is going around ever since our loss to Pool.. That has influenced the poll.. however seems like GW as a whole hasnt been affected by this stupid virus.

[Joker]

Wenger even had a say in the design of the changing rooms, and the catering service provided at the Emirates. That suggests this is a man who has a HUGE amount of influence at the club.

[Cripps_orig]

I havent read the thread, just voted but i really cant see how anyone can defend Wenger anymore.

Il have to read it and see this delusional defence of Wenger. Need a laugh tbh

[fakeyank]

Wenger even had a say in the design of the changing rooms, and the catering service provided at the Emirates. That suggests this is a man who has a HUGE amount of influence at the club.

YES! YES!! I know this!! I was told about this when I did the stadium tour! A manager who designs the changing rooms.. wow! He is a victim though..

[fakeyank]

I havent read the thread, just voted but i really cant see how anyone can defend Wenger anymore.

Il have to read it and see this delusional defence of Wenger. Need a laugh tbh

Lettuce, NQ, GB :rose:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Surprises me too. I thought he'd have 4-5 votes at most. Seems like 'Wenger love-in' flu is going around ever since our loss to Pool.. That has influenced the poll.. however seems like GW as a whole hasnt been affected by this stupid virus.

Or people could be concerned at the replacement the board install were he to go right now.

[Cripps_orig]

Lettuce, NQ, GB :rose:

NQ and GB were defending Wenger? Thats a surprise.

Letters, i expected. Poor guy is hoping against all hope that Wenger changes his way.

[Master Splinter]

however seems like GW as a whole hasnt been affected by this stupid virus.

Oh the stupid virus is pretty widespread......

[Cripps_orig]

The stupid virus has a name tbh.

Its called Wengeritis.

[fakeyank]

Or people could be concerned at the replacement the board install were he to go right now.

Right now, I'd personally take my U-18 coach over him! There are tons out there- Ancelotti, Billic, Riijkard, Pelligrini, Keown, Moyes. You might agree with some or not agree with any of the names but the fact is that we need a change. AW was unknown when he joined us.. may be another unknown person from Japan or South Korea or Bangladesh. I'd take Maradona personally but then thats coz I love the guy and he would piss the English off! :lol:

[fakeyank]

NQ and GB were defending Wenger? Thats a surprise.

Letters, i expected. Poor guy is hoping against all hope that Wenger changes his way.

Yes! NQ is blaming the board and of course the American. GB wants AW to leave but doesnt want anyone call him a c*nt coz that makes the poster 'fickle'

:ilt:

[Joker]

The poll is closer than i thought it would be

It has swung significantly in favour of "Wenger out" since last season though. This was the result when I first started the thread back in March of last season:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=47393

GB also asked the question at the end of last season:

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=46

Results for that poll are similar to this one, surprisingly.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Right now, I'd personally take my U-18 coach over him! There are tons out there- Ancelotti, Billic, Riijkard, Pelligrini, Keown, Moyes. You might agree with some or not agree with any of the names but the fact is that we need a change. AW was unknown when he joined us.. may be another unknown person from Japan or South Korea or Bangladesh. I'd take Maradona personally but then thats coz I love the guy and he would piss the English off! :lol:

Naming a string of coaches isn't the point I was making. The point I was making is more at the prospect of what the board would do; it'd be a legitimate concern if it were true given whatever you think is happening with Wenger over the last few years has been happening under their stewardship.

[fakeyank]

Naming a string of coaches isn't the point I was making. The point I was making is more at the prospect of what the board would do; it'd be a legitimate concern if it were true given whatever you think is happening with Wenger over the last few years has been happening under their stewardship.

I think the board would get a new coach if AW left.. :unsure:

Like I said, unless AW changes his ways, he needs to leave and after that what the board does in terms of replacing him is secondary. Our primary concern should be to get AW's head straight or get him out of his job as manager of Arsenal FC.

I hope I got your point this time.. :unsure:

[Cripps_orig]

Yes! NQ is blaming the board and of course the American. GB wants AW to leave but doesnt want anyone call him a c*nt coz that makes the poster 'fickle'

:ilt:

Read the first couple of pages, got bored.

NQ is half right. Blame the board and Wenger tbh.

As for the cunt thing, its a lack of respect thing. If he keeps playing the fans like fools then he'll get abused.

[fakeyank]

Read the first couple of pages, got bored.

NQ is half right. Blame the board and Wenger tbh.

As for the cunt thing, its a lack of respect thing. If he keeps playing the fans like fools then he'll get abused.

IMO Blame %- AW= 80%, Board= 15%, Bad luck = 5%

Agree about the respect part. I wanted him to leave 2 seasons back but I started calling him a c*nt towards the end of last season. I guess I have had enough of him.. soon a lot others will too.. inshahallah!

[Letters]

Letters, i expected. Poor guy is hoping against all hope that Wenger changes his way.

I've said repeatedly Wenger should have been sacked last season.
But hey, you can all keep ignoring that if you like.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I think the board would get a new coach if AW left.. :unsure:

Like I said, unless AW changes his ways, he needs to leave and after that what the board does in terms of replacing him is secondary. Our primary concern should be to get AW's head straight or get him out of his job as manager of Arsenal FC.

I hope I got your point this time.. :unsure:

Of course they would get a new manager in, the doubt creeps on to who they'd want and whether it would actually represent any real change. If they're comfortable with just finishing the top four season in season out based on the financial benefits of it, then why the assumption that a new manager is just going to mean they'll think "right let's get this new guy to push us on to a new level"?

[fakeyank]

I've said repeatedly Wenger should have been sacked last season.
But hey, you can all keep ignoring that if you like.

Man, I am confused! :lol:

So what are you saying here? I do get the point that there is something bigger (conspiracy theory IMO) going on behind the scenes but the important question is... do u want him as manager? If you wanted him sacked last season, what has changed your mind this season? Or do you still want him sacked? :unsure:

[Cripps_orig]

It has swung significantly in favour of "Wenger out" since last season though. This was the result when I first started the thread back in March of last season:

http://z13.invisionfree.com/goonersweb/index.php?showtopic=47393

GB also asked the question at the end of last season:

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=46

Results for that poll are similar to this one, surprisingly.

In March? We were in the midst of our awful run but i assume most of the Wenger fans back then were in the mindset that he will sort out all the problems in the summer which of course he hasnt. He hasnt even attempted to tbh hence we see more people wanting him out.

Ive wanted him out since the start of last summer. I turned on him at the end of the 09/10 season but was willing to give him that summer for him to get some quality players in. We didnt and ive wanted him out since and that hasnt changed.

This summer is as bad as last years and has done nothing to lift the mood of the fans.

[Cripps_orig]

I've said repeatedly Wenger should have been sacked last season.
But hey, you can all keep ignoring that if you like.

Yet you defend him to the rafters when someone else says they want him sacked.

You've probably done it in this thread if i cba reading it

[fakeyank]

Of course they would get a new manager in, the doubt creeps on to who they'd want and whether it would actually represent any real change. If they're comfortable with just finishing the top four season in season out based on the financial benefits of it, then why the assumption that a new manager is just going to mean they'll think "right let's get this new guy to push us on to a new level"?

I guess we can never know till AW walks or is fired or moved on to upper management. What I do know is that we need a change footballistically.. we need to stop the rot and it should start with AW.

[Özim]

Yet you defend him to the rafters when someone else says they want him sacked.

You've probably done it in this thread if i cba reading it
Yup I've made that point.

If you want someone sacked and believe they should be, you don't then look for all kinds of excuses for the problems.

I agree the board is to blame, but AW has a lot of blame to shoulder too....and definitely has to take a lot of blame on the transfer front.

[Cripps_orig]

I guess we can never know till AW walks or is fired or moved on to upper management. What I do know is that we need a change footballistically.. we need to stop the rot and it should start with AW.

That must never happen either

[BOBN]

See what AW has done to us?! FFS open your eyes... AW has to leave!
Ok you want wenger out, who do you think are in a position to make that happen?

Even with the one thing that nobody could argue isn't in the hands of the board, an action which you see as necessary for the sake of the club, you refuse to criticise them one iota.

The only virus on here is the blind cock fondling of the board from people like you. Shall we call it boarditis?

[Özim]

That must never happen either
New manager: Arsene I want to sign "Atopplayer"
Arsene: How old is he
New manager: 26
Arsene: Do you not think he's a bit old, it doesn't make a lot of sense economically
New manager: He's got quite a few years left Arsene and is already a top player who has delivered at the highest level
Arsene: What about the future, we need to build for the future...do you think he will still be around
New manager: I don't see why not Arsene he's got a fair few years and will most likely play on into his 30's
Arsene: We don't like keeping players in their 30's, will he accept a pay cut and one year contract
New manager: I'm not sure Arsene
Arsene: Is he super quality?
New manager: I'm not sure what you mean Arsene, but he's top class and has performed in the CL and was great at the World Cup and has also been consistently good in Spain
Arsene: How much will he cost, we can't buy players for 50 million you know
New manager: He's available for 16 million Arsene, I know it seems a lot but he's proven at the highest level
Arsene: You can make them an offer of up to 8.2 million but start at 5 so you can bid up, we don't want to spend more than that as we have to live in the real world and we have many young players which we don't want to kill
New manager: I'm not sure we'll get him for that Arsene
Arsene: We've got all summer, just keep negotiating and we'll get him at the right price, the deal needs to be right for Arsenal
New manager: If you say so Arsene

[Letters]

Man, I am confused! :lol:

So what are you saying here? I do get the point that there is something bigger (conspiracy theory IMO) going on behind the scenes but the important question is... do u want him as manager? If you wanted him sacked last season, what has changed your mind this season? Or do you still want him sacked? :unsure:

I'm conflicted.

It's not a conspiracy theory to suggest that this mess is not entirely Wenger's doing. We have a board who have some influence on the club and we have Wenger who does too. I take the point that Wenger arguably has more say in things than a lot of managers but the suggestion that he is COMPLETELY in charge of things and thus solely to blame for the mess is just plain wrong. IMO. As for how much say Wenger has...well, none of us really know but the board sit above Wenger and I would suggest if there are disagreements about how to do things (and there are some rumblings that there are) then the board would have the final say, not Wenger. The board employ Wenger, not the other way around.

The collapse last season was entirely down to Wenger, the mental weakness in the squad, the lack of defensive organisation. I blame him solely for those things and I think he should have been sacked for that. The utter balls up that has been this summer's transfer dealings. I'm not convinced that is entirely down to him.

As for whether I want him sacked now...well, like I said I'm conflicted. I think you're being naive if you think a new manager is going to come in and we're going to start spending big and everything will be great again. And I think some people are under-estimating how hard it is to keep a club top 4 while other clubs with far bigger spending power than us throw money around - many managers have tried and failed to spend big to get and keep a team in the top 4, how much has 'Arry and other Spurs managers spent and while they did sneak in there one year they didn't sustain it (mostly 'cos of City, but still).

In brief, I'd never disrespect the man 'cos I remember what things were like before he came and he's taken us places I never dreamed we'd go. I've seen the Double, twice. The unbeaten season. A few other trophies and a style of football in the early noughties I never thought I'd see us play. We're in the new stadium because of Wenger. We see a finish outside the top 4 as a major disappointment because of Wenger. That shouldn't be forgotten.

There is certainly less to lose by sacking him now though, top 4 is going to be a real scrap this year. I wouldn't write us off. We'll probably lose on Sunday but it's a long season so we'll see. I wouldn't cry if he left (as I would have done in the good days) but it wouldn't surprise me if we end up getting worse still when he goes.

[Letters]

Yet you defend him to the rafters when someone else says they want him sacked.

No


You've probably done it in this thread if i cba reading it

</discussion>

[Cripps_orig]

New manager: Arsene I want to sign "Atopplayer"
Arsene: How old is he
New manager: 26
Arsene: Do you not think he's a bit old, it doesn't make a lot of sense economically
New manager: He's got quite a few years left Arsene and is already a top player who has delivered at the highest level
Arsene: What about the future, we need to build for the future...do you think he will still be around
New manager: I don't see why not Arsene he's got a fair few years and will most likely play on into his 30's
Arsene: We don't like keeping players in their 30's, will he accept a pay cut and one year contract
New manager: I'm not sure Arsene
Arsene: Is he super quality?
New manager: I'm not sure what you mean Arsene, but he's top class and has performed in the CL and was great at the World Cup and has also been consistently good in Spain
Arsene: How much will he cost, we can't buy players for 50 million you know
New manager: He's available for 16 million Arsene, I know it seems a lot but he's proven at the highest level
Arsene: You can make them an offer of up to 8.2 million but start at 5 so you can bid up, we don't want to spend more than that as we have to live in the real world and we have many young players which we don't want to kill
New manager: I'm not sure we'll get him for that Arsene
Arsene: We've got all summer, just keep negotiating and we'll get him at the right price, the deal needs to be right for Arsenal
New manager: If you say so Arsene

Pretty much.

[Özim]

As for whether I want him sacked now...well, like I said I'm conflicted.
So basically you say you want him sacked, but you're not actually sure.

So everytime you tell us you think he should be sacked, it's not really true. Your argument makes more sense now, that's fair enough and up to you but you can't keep saying you said you wanted him sacked when actually you're not sure he should be.

Sounds to me like you're behind him and want him to stay.

[fakeyank]

I'm conflicted.

It's not a conspiracy theory to suggest that this mess is not entirely Wenger's doing. We have a board who have some influence on the club and we have Wenger who does too. I take the point that Wenger arguably has more say in things than a lot of managers but the suggestion that he is COMPLETELY in charge of things and thus solely to blame for the mess is just plain wrong. IMO. As for how much say Wenger has...well, none of us really know but the board sit above Wenger and I would suggest if there are disagreements about how to do things (and there are some rumblings that there are) then the board would have the final say, not Wenger. The board employ Wenger, not the other way around.

The collapse last season was entirely down to Wenger, the mental weakness in the squad, the lack of defensive organisation. I blame him solely for those things and I think he should have been sacked for that. The utter balls up that has been this summer's transfer dealings. I'm not convinced that is entirely down to him.

As for whether I want him sacked now...well, like I said I'm conflicted. I think you're being naive if you think a new manager is going to come in and we're going to start spending big and everything will be great again. And I think some people are under-estimating how hard it is to keep a club top 4 while other clubs with far bigger spending power than us throw money around - many managers have tried and failed to spend big to get and keep a team in the top 4, how much has 'Arry and other Spurs managers spent and while they did sneak in there one year they didn't sustain it (mostly 'cos of City, but still).

In brief, I'd never disrespect the man 'cos I remember what things were like before he came and he's taken us places I never dreamed we'd go. I've seen the Double, twice. The unbeaten season. A few other trophies and a style of football in the early noughties I never thought I'd see us play. We're in the new stadium because of Wenger. We see a finish outside the top 4 as a major disappointment because of Wenger. That shouldn't be forgotten.

There is certainly less to lose by sacking him now though, top 4 is going to be a real scrap this year. I wouldn't write us off. We'll probably lose on Sunday but it's a long season so we'll see. I wouldn't cry if he left (as I would have done in the good days) but it wouldn't surprise me if we end up getting worse still when he goes.

I just want us to try! If AW bought the necessary players, changed tactics and we didnt succeed, I'd say we tried but we are not even trying. Assuming the board has given AW backing to spend then its criminal what AW is doing (I believe in this theory). A new manager would do things differently.. Youth policy not working, get experienced ones, defense looking like a leaking oil spill, get it sorted... GIVE IT A FUCKIN TRY AT LEAST! Thats all I ask..

[McNamara That Ghost...]

I guess we can never know till AW walks or is fired or moved on to upper management. What I do know is that we need a change footballistically.. we need to stop the rot and it should start with AW.

I don't think that change is going to come unless there is a change at board level. In any case, voting yes certainly isn't the blind stupidity you make it out to be!

[Cripps_orig]

Just skimmed through a few more pages and i see the board being blamed quite a bit rather than Wenger.

They are both as bad as each other.

Also does anyone seriously think Wenger isnt in total control? Really? If he wasnt then he'd walk. You just have to look back to what hes said to whenever hes been linked to the Real Madrid job, a club where the president runs the show and the manager gets the critisism if it goes wrong hence they have had 50 managers in the past 10 seasons or something.

Wenger is totally to blame for the footballing side of things such as on the pitch shit and the buying or to be more accurate the lack of buying players etc

Board is to blame for not putting pressure on Wenger to produce and just sitting back and see the money rolling in from the most expensive tickets around.

[Marc Overmars]

If pushed I'd say I want him gone however apart from the very early memories of 95 when I started supporting the club, Wenger basically IS Arsenal to me. So whilst there are many managers out there who are qualified for the job and what not, in the back of my mind there is always going to be an irrational fear of what exactly life would be like post-Wenger. So it's a difficult situation but it's coming to a point now where maybe we need to take a few steps back before we can move forward, because this club is moving nowhere under the current set up and if that means getting rid of Wenger then so be it.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

So basically you say you want him sacked, but you're not actually sure.

So everytime you tell us you think he should be sacked, it's not really true. Your argument makes more sense now, that's fair enough and up to you but you can't keep saying you said you wanted him sacked when actually you're not sure he should be.

Sounds to me like you're behind him and want him to stay.

I'm not entirely sure Letters is contradicting himself. He can still want Wenger to be relieved of his duties but still remain mindful of what he has done for us and the problems that might stay in place whether he is here or not - in the same way the board might eventually not 'want' to sack Wenger but it is something that might be felt a neccessity.

[Özim]

I'm not entirely sure Letters is contradicting himself. He can still want Wenger to be relieved of his duties but still remain mindful of what he has done for us and the problems that might stay in place whether he is here or not - in the same way the board might eventually not 'want' to sack Wenger but it is something that might be felt a neccessity.
But he admits not being sure if he wants him sacked now in his post. This in my eyes makes his "I said I wanted him sacked" posts irrelevant and falls more in line with his arguments recently.

Like I said he's not at fault for everything (Wenger), but the transfers and tactics and coaching are his responsibility.

We sold Cesc and had no one lined-up, we didn't buy defenders (other than a kid) and spent 15 million on a kid (I think he's got potential) who isn't ready at the moment, you can't tell me Arsene isn't to blame...he didn't have to sell Cesc and had he not there would have be no money to keep back, he did so he must be able to spend it for a start.

If wages are a problem, then his policy over overpaying kids to keep everyone in line is down to him.

I don't buy the Wenger's hands are tied theory.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Just skimmed through a few more pages and i see the board being blamed quite a bit rather than Wenger.

They are both as bad as each other.

Also does anyone seriously think Wenger isnt in total control? Really? If he wasnt then he'd walk. You just have to look back to what hes said to whenever hes been linked to the Real Madrid job, a club where the president runs the show and the manager gets the critisism if it goes wrong hence they have had 50 managers in the past 10 seasons or something.

Wenger is totally to blame for the footballing side of things such as on the pitch shit and the buying or to be more accurate the lack of buying players etc

Board is to blame for not putting pressure on Wenger to produce and just sitting back and see the money rolling in from the most expensive tickets around.

You are most probably right there is blame to be shared around but ultimately only one 'side' can influence what is going on. If Wenger doesn't or isn't being made aware what he is doing now isn't good enough then it can only come from the board as they're the ones who can decide whether he goes or not. Given this situation has been allowed to exist for such a relatively long period of time now suggests to me, the board are still comfortable with how things are. They are the ones that need to tell Wenger what's what. And if they can't do that then I am afraid there's an impasse.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

But he admits not being sure if he wants him sacked now in his post. This in my eyes makes his "I said I wanted him sacked" posts irrelevant and falls more in line with his arguments recently.

Like I said he's not at fault for everything (Wenger), but the transfers and tactics and coaching are his responsibility.

We sold Cesc and had no one lined-up, we didn't buy defenders (other than a kid) and spent 15 million on a kid (I think he's got potential) who isn't ready at the moment, you can't tell me Arsene isn't to blame...he didn't have to sell Cesc and had he not there would have be no money to keep back, he did so he must be able to spend it for a start.

If wages are a problem, then his policy over overpaying kids to keep everyone in line is down to him.

I don't buy the Wenger's hands are tied theory.

Being conflicted doesn't mean you don't ultimately decide. In fact you can still make a decision and then be conflicted about it afterwards!

Also, who has said Wenger's hands are tied? You seem to be mistaking criticising the board for allowing this culture to exist for defending Wenger outrightly. I'm fairly sure everyone here has blamed Wenger with something at some point - he is the one that needs to be dictated to; that is supposed to be the board's domain.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yup I've made that point.

If you want someone sacked and believe they should be, you don't then look for all kinds of excuses for the problems.

I agree the board is to blame, but AW has a lot of blame to shoulder too....and definitely has to take a lot of blame on the transfer front.

That's a fair and reasonable assessment which stands a chance of being right in the real world, unlike all this "madman" and "megalomaniac" BS. So if Wenger goes how much will really change? It's inevitable the new coach would have a lot less influence over the board, and if we accept the board is partially to blame for our problems then the upshot of Wenger's removal is what? The cancer will still exist at the heart of the club. I've started to review Wenger's comments this summer from a perspective other than, "Wenger Out!", and I think he's talking to us in the only way he can given undoubted constraints. Now I might be delusional myself but I'm going with my gut instinct and in the end I'm not for the board, I'm not for Wenger, I'm for the club - Arsenal. And it's my belief we have some seriously bad'uns in the boardroom now. Toffs who have already cashed in and shouldn't even be there plus an absent owner who knows fuck all about the club and wouldn't have invested at all if his intention wasn't to get back more than he's put in. Wenger's got much to answer for too, no doubt, but I'd trust him over these Etonian fucks and the American any day.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

That's a fair and reasonable assessment which stands a chance of being right in the real world, unlike all this "madman" and "megalomaniac" BS. So if Wenger goes how much will really change? It's inevitable the new coach would have a lot less influence over the board, and if we accept the board is partially to blame for our problems then the upshot of Wenger's removal is what? The cancer will still exist at the heart of the club. I've started to review Wenger's comments this summer from a perspective other than, "Wenger Out!", and I think he's talking to us in the only way he can given undoubted constraints. Now I might be delusional myself but I'm going with my gut instinct and in the end I'm not for the board, I'm not for Wenger, I'm for the club - Arsenal. And it's my belief we have some seriously bad'uns in the boardroom now. Toffs who have already cashed in and shouldn't even be there plus an absent owner who knows fuck all about the club and wouldn't have invested at all if his intention wasn't to get back more than he's put in. Wenger's got much to answer for too, no doubt, but I'd trust him over these Etonian fucks and the American any day.

This but people seem to think if Wenger goes were going to get some world class manager who will spalash out Millions and Millions on Players.

Nothing much will change if Wenger goes unless this board goes too.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

But he admits not being sure if he wants him sacked now in his post. This in my eyes makes his "I said I wanted him sacked" posts irrelevant and falls more in line with his arguments recently.

Like I said he's not at fault for everything (Wenger), but the transfers and tactics and coaching are his responsibility.

We sold Cesc and had no one lined-up, we didn't buy defenders (other than a kid) and spent 15 million on a kid (I think he's got potential) who isn't ready at the moment, you can't tell me Arsene isn't to blame...he didn't have to sell Cesc and had he not there would have be no money to keep back, he did so he must be able to spend it for a start.

If wages are a problem, then his policy over overpaying kids to keep everyone in line is down to him.I don't buy the Wenger's hands are tied theory.

Problem is you or me don't kow how much he pays the kids, your assuming they get top dolla without any evidence. Are his hands tied that remails to be seen tbh.

If he walked out the club because he was not happy now, he be called a coward and all sorts.

None of us knows what really goes on up at that level and we never will till someone speaks out. Will a new manager change that much with PHW etc still there no way we will get the same thing only diffrence might be the attitude on the pitch might be dffrent.

we would never get a jose or a rikard here though

[Özim]

That's a fair and reasonable assessment which stands a chance of being right in the real world, unlike all this "madman" and "megalomaniac" BS. So if Wenger goes how much will really change? It's inevitable the new coach would have a lot less influence over the board, and if we accept the board is partially to blame for our problems then the upshot of Wenger's removal is what? The cancer will still exist at the heart of the club. I've started to review Wenger's comments this summer from a perspective other than, "Wenger Out!", and I think he's talking to us in the only way he can given undoubted constraints. Now I might be delusional myself but I'm going with my gut instinct and in the end I'm not for the board, I'm not for Wenger, I'm for the club - Arsenal. And it's my belief we have some seriously bad'uns in the boardroom now. Toffs who have already cashed in and shouldn't even be there plus an absent owner who knows fuck all about the club and wouldn't have invested at all if his intention wasn't to get back more than he's put in. Wenger's got much to answer for too, no doubt, but I'd trust him over these Etonian fucks and the American any day.
The board has been a problem for a while IMO, but the only way to hurt these guys is in the pocket, if everyone sits there and takes it why should they change.

Having accepted that the board is a problem we can't ignore the fact Wenger is also a problem, the tactics, the blind faith, the stubborness in all football aspects and the inability to identify and deal with these aspects are just some of the issues.

A new manager would be allowed to spend and build the team in his own image, all managers are or else they're won't sign on the dotted line unless told otherwise when they do sign. Replacing the manager would at least begin to change things, we may have someone who is tactically more astute and able to get the team to play as a better unit (particularly defensively).

I don't see the board being a reason why we should keep Wenger, because clearly he's not delivering on the football side instead choosing excuses for his team defficiencies.

[Özim]

Problem is you or me don't kow how much he pays the kids, your assuming they get top dolla without any evidence. Are his hands tied that remails to be seen tbh.

If he walked out the club because he was not happy now, he be called a coward and all sorts.

None of us knows what really goes on up at that level and we never will till someone speaks out. Will a new manager change that much with PHW etc still there no way we will get the same thing only diffrence might be the attitude on the pitch might be dffrent.

we would never get a jose or a rikard here though
I think we pretty much know they get paid a lot, from Wenger's words and the fact we can't get rid of them now. If you look at the evidence it's pretty clear we pay top dollar, it's one of the reasons we attract so many kids.

A new manager will bring new ideas and as mentioned will be allowed freedom to build a team (tha's what happens when new manager's come in), our style of football, tactics, organisation and balance are all wrong at the moment...this is something the board doesn't control...so this could change.

Who knows who we would get, we're a big club and I'm sure we could get someone decent, we won't be scouring the lower leagues for managers that's for sure, even in the pre-Wenger days, Robson was mentioned a man who had managed England.