Has Wenger really benefitted AFC since 2006?

[IBK]

In the wake of the transfer season, I've been giving Wenger's net value to the club some serious thought.

The natural assumption is that he has been great news - at least in terms of the stadium project - because he has kept us in the CL and done great business in the transfer market - and these are difficult achievements to deny.

But scratch deeper, and some question marks emerge. Firstly, despite the new stadium AFC is and has remained a rich club. It has a big fan base, and our gate receipts are the 3rd highest in the world (after RM and Manure). Sure some of that is committed to the stadium debt, but nevertheless we have a relatively big income, that has been richly augmented by our net transfer profits. But what has the manager done with this money? He has spent it on paying inflated prices to bring very young players to the club, and on rewarding young, untested or simply shite players with far higher wages than they would earn elsewhere. Vela; Bendtner; Denilson; Traore; Squillachi; Almunia; Djourou; Diaby - hell even Song; Walcott; and Arshavin (while they don't fit into this category) could be regarded as being overpaid in terms of what they have delivered consistently since they joined the club. And it has ultimately been for nothing.

The fact that project youth has been consigned to the dustbin, and the difficulty we are having shifting the dross demonstrates the folly of rewarding many of the players that we have had over the last 5 years - as does the fact that we haven't exactly broken the bank to bring in some experience to balance the talent that we do have.

Second, I think we have to question the effect that the manager's miscalculations have had on our team. The past 5 years have been characterised most of all by the (relatively few) players who can be termed Weger successes - Flamini; Hleb; Adebayor; Nasri - looking elsewhere as soon as they have shown some form, and in Fabregas's case having been distracted for the past 2 years. Whether it is Wenger's management style; his damaging adherence to a ridgid wage structure or his inflexible approach to the football side of things - the result has been constant disruption and lack of assimilation and progress. In a sense the benefits of his successful developments have been countered by his failure to prevent constant seepage of talent.

And in terms of players' development. I'm not sure whether the manager fully deserves his reputation for polishing rough diamonds. He has had noteable successes with the players I have mentioned, but for all those, there seems to me to be a litany of wasted talent. I would put the likes of Denilson (who showed massive promise at one point); Lansbury; Bendtner; Senderos; Arshavin; Djourou; Clichy; Diaby; Eduardo; Walcott - even Gallas in this category - players who for one reason or another (but mainly because of lack of experience alongside them, or because of the way the team is set up or being played out of position) could IMO have been greater successes than they have been.

I know that this is not wholly the manager's fault and that the players themselves have to shoulder some blame - but there are still question marks for me.

And finally I have to wonder whether our manager has also been a good thing for the club in terms of his absolute dominance. While not his fault - he has allowed the club to be over-conservative and non-progressive. His antipathy to pre season publicity tours has undoubtedly contributed to the club's failure to capitalise marketing-wise on the invincibles' legacy, and the strong impression is that he has fostered loyalty to himself, rather than to the club's proud traditions (in the way George Graham did, for example).

Look, its easy to be over-critical in hindsight, and on balance I still feel that Wenger has benefitted the club (in terms of its stability if not success) over the period. But I wonder if there has been recently much basis for assuming that 'Arsene knows'.

Thoughts?

[KSE Comedy Club]

Yes and No.

:shrug:

[IBK]

Yes and No.

:shrug:

:lol:

[Power n Glory]

The benefit has been stability but he lacks that drive for trophies and dominance.The players can see that and it's why they move on. Nice guy, but he likes that edge.

[IBK]

The benefit has been stability but he lacks that drive for trophies and dominance.The players can see that and it's why they move on. Nice guy, but he likes that edge.

Or he has that drive, but is addicted to having to show that he can do it differently?

[Power n Glory]

His ego outweighs the drive and need for trophies. He can easily sit back and see 4th spot as an achievement while others can't.

[IBK]

His ego outweighs the drive and need for trophies. He can easily sit back and see 4th spot as an achievement while others can't.

I agree with this - which begs the question has AFC as a vehicle for Wenger's ego suffered - or do the benefits stability-wise override this. I think its closer than it would seem...

[AKBapologist]

Why arbitrarily start at 2006?

[Niall_Quinn]

Nothing much has looked very stable to me over the last year.

[Fats]

I fancy a cheese and pickle roll for lunch

[Cripps_orig]

No

His personal crusade of going against the money men with the doomed youth project made us in to a laughing stock and at any other club, he'd have been sacked but the board are just as bad as him

[Xhaka Can’t]

Im against the money men. Anyone in their right mind would be too. Some Clubs have simply been reduced to being penis extensions of people with obscene amounts of money in the main obtained from criminality and through being part of an inner sanctum that subjugate their fellow citizens and cream off the profits of an entire country's mineral rights and resources.


Arsene made a huge mistake offering big contracts to unproven talent and I blame him for that. But if Wenger was stupid enough to offer the likes of The lesbian 200k a week, City would just offer him 300k a week and they'd do that with all the other great players they have because while money is all important along with ego to their owners, the obscene amounts we are talking about are piffiling to the cunts that own them.


Mind you, if we had offered the lesbian £200k per week, they'd only have to offer her 201k and shed be off like a ten dollar whore.

[Alan B'stard]

In the wake of the transfer season, I've been giving Wenger's net value to the club some serious thought.

The natural assumption is that he has been great news - at least in terms of the stadium project - because he has kept us in the CL and done great business in the transfer market - and these are difficult achievements to deny.

But scratch deeper, and some question marks emerge. Firstly, despite the new stadium AFC is and has remained a rich club. It has a big fan base, and our gate receipts are the 3rd highest in the world (after RM and Manure). Sure some of that is committed to the stadium debt, but nevertheless we have a relatively big income, that has been richly augmented by our net transfer profits. But what has the manager done with this money? He has spent it on paying inflated prices to bring very young players to the club, and on rewarding young, untested or simply shite players with far higher wages than they would earn elsewhere. Vela; Bendtner; Denilson; Traore; Squillachi; Almunia; Djourou; Diaby - hell even Song; Walcott; and Arshavin (while they don't fit into this category) could be regarded as being overpaid in terms of what they have delivered consistently since they joined the club. And it has ultimately been for nothing.

The fact that project youth has been consigned to the dustbin, and the difficulty we are having shifting the dross demonstrates the folly of rewarding many of the players that we have had over the last 5 years - as does the fact that we haven't exactly broken the bank to bring in some experience to balance the talent that we do have.

Second, I think we have to question the effect that the manager's miscalculations have had on our team. The past 5 years have been characterised most of all by the (relatively few) players who can be termed Weger successes - Flamini; Hleb; Adebayor; Nasri - looking elsewhere as soon as they have shown some form, and in Fabregas's case having been distracted for the past 2 years. Whether it is Wenger's management style; his damaging adherence to a ridgid wage structure or his inflexible approach to the football side of things - the result has been constant disruption and lack of assimilation and progress. In a sense the benefits of his successful developments have been countered by his failure to prevent constant seepage of talent.

And in terms of players' development. I'm not sure whether the manager fully deserves his reputation for polishing rough diamonds. He has had noteable successes with the players I have mentioned, but for all those, there seems to me to be a litany of wasted talent. I would put the likes of Denilson (who showed massive promise at one point); Lansbury; Bendtner; Senderos; Arshavin; Djourou; Clichy; Diaby; Eduardo; Walcott - even Gallas in this category - players who for one reason or another (but mainly because of lack of experience alongside them, or because of the way the team is set up or being played out of position) could IMO have been greater successes than they have been.

I know that this is not wholly the manager's fault and that the players themselves have to shoulder some blame - but there are still question marks for me.

And finally I have to wonder whether our manager has also been a good thing for the club in terms of his absolute dominance. While not his fault - he has allowed the club to be over-conservative and non-progressive. His antipathy to pre season publicity tours has undoubtedly contributed to the club's failure to capitalise marketing-wise on the invincibles' legacy, and the strong impression is that he has fostered loyalty to himself, rather than to the club's proud traditions (in the way George Graham did, for example).

Look, its easy to be over-critical in hindsight, and on balance I still feel that Wenger has benefitted the club (in terms of its stability if not success) over the period. But I wonder if there has been recently much basis for assuming that 'Arsene knows'.

Thoughts?

yes, but only by using his nearly misses and previous record to keep fans from rioting and keeping bums on seats.
he has done exceptionally well to keep things steady given the resources, and the club have been able to break the back of the debt despite the credit crunch screwing up their financial projections.

that goodwill and capital is now well an trul spent, and wenger has no more room for manouever

[IBK]

yes, but only by using his nearly misses and previous record to keep fans from rioting and keeping bums on seats.
he has done exceptionally well to keep things steady given the resources, and the club have been able to break the back of the debt despite the credit crunch screwing up their financial projections.

that goodwill and capital is now well an trul spent, and wenger has no more room for manouever

Recently we always seem to say that the coming season is crunch time for Wenger, but now it really is.

[IBK]

Also - I read an article in the Independent today that said that last season AW crossed the line from innovation to narcissism. I would love to think that the chastening effect of bombing out last season; losing his best 'project players and being humiliated at old Trafford makes him realise that he needs input from others (players; directors; a proper No. 2). I'm not holding my breath, but remember that last season he came back from being whipped by Manure, the Chavs and Barca in 2009/10 - and even changed his approach. Our new signings represent a bit of humble pie. I hope Wenger isn't full yet...

[Cripps_orig]

I hope Wenger isn't full yet...Hes full of shit

Does that count?

[selassie]

In the wake of the transfer season, I've been giving Wenger's net value to the club some serious thought.

The natural assumption is that he has been great news - at least in terms of the stadium project - because he has kept us in the CL and done great business in the transfer market - and these are difficult achievements to deny.

But scratch deeper, and some question marks emerge. Firstly, despite the new stadium AFC is and has remained a rich club. It has a big fan base, and our gate receipts are the 3rd highest in the world (after RM and Manure). Sure some of that is committed to the stadium debt, but nevertheless we have a relatively big income, that has been richly augmented by our net transfer profits. But what has the manager done with this money? He has spent it on paying inflated prices to bring very young players to the club, and on rewarding young, untested or simply shite players with far higher wages than they would earn elsewhere. Vela; Bendtner; Denilson; Traore; Squillachi; Almunia; Djourou; Diaby - hell even Song; Walcott; and Arshavin (while they don't fit into this category) could be regarded as being overpaid in terms of what they have delivered consistently since they joined the club. And it has ultimately been for nothing.

The fact that project youth has been consigned to the dustbin, and the difficulty we are having shifting the dross demonstrates the folly of rewarding many of the players that we have had over the last 5 years - as does the fact that we haven't exactly broken the bank to bring in some experience to balance the talent that we do have.

Second, I think we have to question the effect that the manager's miscalculations have had on our team. The past 5 years have been characterised most of all by the (relatively few) players who can be termed Weger successes - Flamini; Hleb; Adebayor; Nasri - looking elsewhere as soon as they have shown some form, and in Fabregas's case having been distracted for the past 2 years. Whether it is Wenger's management style; his damaging adherence to a ridgid wage structure or his inflexible approach to the football side of things - the result has been constant disruption and lack of assimilation and progress. In a sense the benefits of his successful developments have been countered by his failure to prevent constant seepage of talent.

And in terms of players' development. I'm not sure whether the manager fully deserves his reputation for polishing rough diamonds. He has had noteable successes with the players I have mentioned, but for all those, there seems to me to be a litany of wasted talent. I would put the likes of Denilson (who showed massive promise at one point); Lansbury; Bendtner; Senderos; Arshavin; Djourou; Clichy; Diaby; Eduardo; Walcott - even Gallas in this category - players who for one reason or another (but mainly because of lack of experience alongside them, or because of the way the team is set up or being played out of position) could IMO have been greater successes than they have been.

I know that this is not wholly the manager's fault and that the players themselves have to shoulder some blame - but there are still question marks for me.

And finally I have to wonder whether our manager has also been a good thing for the club in terms of his absolute dominance. While not his fault - he has allowed the club to be over-conservative and non-progressive. His antipathy to pre season publicity tours has undoubtedly contributed to the club's failure to capitalise marketing-wise on the invincibles' legacy, and the strong impression is that he has fostered loyalty to himself, rather than to the club's proud traditions (in the way George Graham did, for example).

Look, its easy to be over-critical in hindsight, and on balance I still feel that Wenger has benefitted the club (in terms of its stability if not success) over the period. But I wonder if there has been recently much basis for assuming that 'Arsene knows'.

Thoughts?

Great thread.

I think Wenger has benefitted the club's stability in terms of achieving the goal of retaining CL football but from a Technical point of view with the squad/development of players he's done an average to poor job.

I feel whilst he can be commended for sticking to his policy of developing players he has to the detriment of the team continued in vein to develop players who should have been shown the door quite some time ago, I do not feel he has been pragmatic enough in this instance.

Funnily enough I actually think the squad of 07/08 was one of the best squads he has assembled, it had a good mix of youth & experience. I actually feel that if he would have managed to successfully retain the core of that squad we would have gone on to win major trophies. For me, the major issues with his squad building and penchant for developing youth really stood out after the season of 07/08. Instead of a smooth transistion post 07/08, we endured a turbulent season waiting for Projects like Denilson, Diaby & Song to develop into top quality PL/CL performers.

What we're currently seeing is a cull of the first batch of "youth projects", the likes of Senderos (gone), Eboue (gone), Clichy (gone), Denilson (loan, will probably go), Bendtner (loan, will probably go). Add the likes of Traore (gone), Vela (who seems to have stagnated) & you actually have a big list of players who were either purchased or developed who have failed.

Where I think Wenger got it wrong was the timing of the cull, many of these players should have been shown the door a few years ago and not given bumper contracts.

Financial constraints aside, I do believe a lot of these decisions have been purely of Wenger's making and he unlike most managers tends to give players quite a long time to flourish, take the Almunia situation as a case in point.

Has Wenger really benefitted AFC since 2006, yes and no!

[Flavs]

In the wake of the transfer season, I've been giving Wenger's net value to the club some serious thought.

The natural assumption is that he has been great news - at least in terms of the stadium project - because he has kept us in the CL and done great business in the transfer market - and these are difficult achievements to deny.

But scratch deeper, and some question marks emerge. Firstly, despite the new stadium AFC is and has remained a rich club. It has a big fan base, and our gate receipts are the 3rd highest in the world (after RM and Manure). Sure some of that is committed to the stadium debt, but nevertheless we have a relatively big income, that has been richly augmented by our net transfer profits. But what has the manager done with this money? He has spent it on paying inflated prices to bring very young players to the club, and on rewarding young, untested or simply shite players with far higher wages than they would earn elsewhere. Vela; Bendtner; Denilson; Traore; Squillachi; Almunia; Djourou; Diaby - hell even Song; Walcott; and Arshavin (while they don't fit into this category) could be regarded as being overpaid in terms of what they have delivered consistently since they joined the club. And it has ultimately been for nothing.

The fact that project youth has been consigned to the dustbin, and the difficulty we are having shifting the dross demonstrates the folly of rewarding many of the players that we have had over the last 5 years - as does the fact that we haven't exactly broken the bank to bring in some experience to balance the talent that we do have.

Second, I think we have to question the effect that the manager's miscalculations have had on our team. The past 5 years have been characterised most of all by the (relatively few) players who can be termed Weger successes - Flamini; Hleb; Adebayor; Nasri - looking elsewhere as soon as they have shown some form, and in Fabregas's case having been distracted for the past 2 years. Whether it is Wenger's management style; his damaging adherence to a ridgid wage structure or his inflexible approach to the football side of things - the result has been constant disruption and lack of assimilation and progress. In a sense the benefits of his successful developments have been countered by his failure to prevent constant seepage of talent.

And in terms of players' development. I'm not sure whether the manager fully deserves his reputation for polishing rough diamonds. He has had noteable successes with the players I have mentioned, but for all those, there seems to me to be a litany of wasted talent. I would put the likes of Denilson (who showed massive promise at one point); Lansbury; Bendtner; Senderos; Arshavin; Djourou; Clichy; Diaby; Eduardo; Walcott - even Gallas in this category - players who for one reason or another (but mainly because of lack of experience alongside them, or because of the way the team is set up or being played out of position) could IMO have been greater successes than they have been.

I know that this is not wholly the manager's fault and that the players themselves have to shoulder some blame - but there are still question marks for me.

And finally I have to wonder whether our manager has also been a good thing for the club in terms of his absolute dominance. While not his fault - he has allowed the club to be over-conservative and non-progressive. His antipathy to pre season publicity tours has undoubtedly contributed to the club's failure to capitalise marketing-wise on the invincibles' legacy, and the strong impression is that he has fostered loyalty to himself, rather than to the club's proud traditions (in the way George Graham did, for example).

Look, its easy to be over-critical in hindsight, and on balance I still feel that Wenger has benefitted the club (in terms of its stability if not success) over the period. But I wonder if there has been recently much basis for assuming that 'Arsene knows'.

Thoughts?

are you sub/nasri scoreng??

[IBK]

are you sub/nasri scoreng??

That's me (thinking of going back to Sub 'cos 3 words are too long to sign in with)!

[IBK]

Great thread.

I think Wenger has benefitted the club's stability in terms of achieving the goal of retaining CL football but from a Technical point of view with the squad/development of players he's done an average to poor job.

I feel whilst he can be commended for sticking to his policy of developing players he has to the detriment of the team continued in vein to develop players who should have been shown the door quite some time ago, I do not feel he has been pragmatic enough in this instance.

Funnily enough I actually think the squad of 07/08 was one of the best squads he has assembled, it had a good mix of youth & experience. I actually feel that if he would have managed to successfully retain the core of that squad we would have gone on to win major trophies. For me, the major issues with his squad building and penchant for developing youth really stood out after the season of 07/08. Instead of a smooth transistion post 07/08, we endured a turbulent season waiting for Projects like Denilson, Diaby & Song to develop into top quality PL/CL performers.

What we're currently seeing is a cull of the first batch of "youth projects", the likes of Senderos (gone), Eboue (gone), Clichy (gone), Denilson (loan, will probably go), Bendtner (loan, will probably go). Add the likes of Traore (gone), Vela (who seems to have stagnated) & you actually have a big list of players who were either purchased or developed who have failed.

Where I think Wenger got it wrong was the timing of the cull, many of these players should have been shown the door a few years ago and not given bumper contracts.

Financial constraints aside, I do believe a lot of these decisions have been purely of Wenger's making and he unlike most managers tends to give players quite a long time to flourish, take the Almunia situation as a case in point.

Has Wenger really benefitted AFC since 2006, yes and no!

And that's the irony of the whole deal. The basis is good - some of his ideas and innovations have been great for the club, but there is a definite point where they have become obsessive and inflexible - to our detriment. This is where, by contrast, SAF stays so fresh. And where I start to wonder whether the great Wenger was great because he had a DD as a counterpoint.

[LDG]

I think Wenger is too prudent, and too trusting.

In football, things change rapidly due to injuries, money, confidence, age and tactics. Wenger does not adapt, or adapt his side quickly enough to compensate for the changes.

I can sympathise with him in some respects, because in order to let something blossom, you have to give it time. And in some respects I admire him for sticking to his principles in the, often vein attempt to see promise turn into gold.

Football has changed dramatically since 2006, and Wenger has done a very consistent job in keeping the team in the hunt, and the financials in check.

What he hasn't done, perhaps until the last few months, is be ruthless in culling and changing a team which has failed. Part of the reason for the "waiting period" we've had, is indecision from the manager in what he wants to do. Granted the Cesc and Nasri situations have been a cunt and a half, but he should have been more ruthless from 1st June, because even with C&N, we weren't good enough last year. And things needed changing quickly, efficiently and with a ruthless sythe.

I wouldn't say helacked desire....in fact, I think he wants to win more than any other manager. But the way he goes about things, thinking, pondering and trusting to good, often leave him floundering in the wake of more ruthless managers. That shows within an actual match, with his stubborness to change tactics, or substutions at key times.

A good manager. But someone far too slow to react.

[IBK]

I think Wenger is too prudent, and too trusting.

In football, things change rapidly due to injuries, money, confidence, age and tactics. Wenger does not adapt, or adapt his side quickly enough to compensate for the changes.

I can sympathise with him in some respects, because in order to let something blossom, you have to give it time. And in some respects I admire him for sticking to his principles in the, often vein attempt to see promise turn into gold.

Football has changed dramatically since 2006, and Wenger has done a very consistent job in keeping the team in the hunt, and the financials in check.

What he hasn't done, perhaps until the last few months, is be ruthless in culling and changing a team which has failed. Part of the reason for the "waiting period" we've had, is indecision from the manager in what he wants to do. Granted the Cesc and Nasri situations have been a cunt and a half, but he should have been more ruthless from 1st June, because even with C&N, we weren't good enough last year. And things needed changing quickly, efficiently and with a ruthless sythe.

I wouldn't say helacked desire....in fact, I think he wants to win more than any other manager. But the way he goes about things, thinking, pondering and trusting to good, often leave him floundering in the wake of more ruthless managers. That shows within an actual match, with his stubborness to change tactics, or substutions at key times.

A good manager. But someone far too slow to react.

Dithering - in other words. But I think he is also too close to his project and lacks objectivity.

[Flavs]

That's me (thinking of going back to Sub 'cos 3 words are too long to sign in with)!
I knew it!

[Daniele]

if you look at the signings and team's improvement over the last 5 years, then we have to draw a line and say tht AW has been a complete failure.

[Flavs]

But scratch deeper, and some question marks emerge. Firstly, despite the new stadium AFC is and has remained a rich club. It has a big fan base, and our gate receipts are the 3rd highest in the world (after RM and Manure). Sure some of that is committed to the stadium debt, but nevertheless we have a relatively big income, that has been richly augmented by our net transfer profits. But what has the manager done with this money? He has spent it on paying inflated prices to bring very young players to the club, and on rewarding young, untested or simply shite players with far higher wages than they would earn elsewhere. Vela; Bendtner; Denilson; Traore; Squillachi; Almunia; Djourou; Diaby - hell even Song; Walcott; and Arshavin (while they don't fit into this category) could be regarded as being overpaid in terms of what they have delivered consistently since they joined the club. And it has ultimately been for nothing.

This is of course assuming that Wenger handles transfer rather than just submitting a list of players he wants to the board and they go and get them. Also how much input do you really believe Wenger has in deciding who gets what wages?


The fact that project youth has been consigned to the dustbin, and the difficulty we are having shifting the dross demonstrates the folly of rewarding many of the players that we have had over the last 5 years - as does the fact that we haven't exactly broken the bank to bring in some experience to balance the talent that we do have.

Has it? Didn't we just get £35mil for a player we paid £500k for? And get £25mil for a player we bought for £14mil? How much are Ramsey and Wilshere worth now? Song and Djorou? i would say that while its not lived up to the billing we had been sold by the unstoppable Arsenal PR machine its still reaped huge benefit for the club. I guess it depends on what you thought "project youth" was actually trying to achieve. I would suggest that all youth systems even the bigged up Barca one produce 1 player in 20 that is actually successful, i think we are on par with any team in the world and yes i know we cheat by buying 16-19 year old from other clubs and then converting them but when the catchment area rules went i think that was always going to happen.


Second, I think we have to question the effect that the manager's miscalculations have had on our team. The past 5 years have been characterised most of all by the (relatively few) players who can be termed Weger successes - Flamini; Hleb; Adebayor; Nasri - looking elsewhere as soon as they have shown some form, and in Fabregas's case having been distracted for the past 2 years. Whether it is Wenger's management style; his damaging adherence to a ridgid wage structure or his inflexible approach to the football side of things - the result has been constant disruption and lack of assimilation and progress. In a sense the benefits of his successful developments have been countered by his failure to prevent constant seepage of talent. I see you have picked all the bad apples there, the things you haven't noted here are agents and billionaire owners. Also would you have wanted us to break the wage structure to keep such players here? I think Wenger has a very good history of knowing when its time to get rid of a player and maybe Anelka aside i cant think of any that have done better without us than while here

The conflict i see is that some players are accommodated and efforts are made to keep them (i.e. the captaincy and playing style) while others are simply binned at the first chance.


And in terms of players' development. I'm not sure whether the manager fully deserves his reputation for polishing rough diamonds. He has had noteable successes with the players I have mentioned, but for all those, there seems to me to be a litany of wasted talent. I would put the likes of Denilson (who showed massive promise at one point); Lansbury; Bendtner; Senderos; Arshavin; Djourou; Clichy; Diaby; Eduardo; Walcott - even Gallas in this category - players who for one reason or another (but mainly because of lack of experience alongside them, or because of the way the team is set up or being played out of position) could IMO have been greater successes than they have been.

I know that this is not wholly the manager's fault and that the players themselves have to shoulder some blame - but there are still question marks for me. I kind of agree with this, the way the actual playing squad are managed seems to get worse season after season, i do wonder if its a character thing by the players as much as the manager. The first great Wenger team had Adams, Keown, Wright etc in it to supplement the younger lads that were coming through, the second team had Bergkamp, Henry and a Vieira that had learned from the first lot. Now the only true, blood and guts, dragging them along with bloody fingernail types are RvP and Vermaelen and they are either injured or overrun.


And finally I have to wonder whether our manager has also been a good thing for the club in terms of his absolute dominance. While not his fault - he has allowed the club to be over-conservative and non-progressive. His antipathy to pre season publicity tours has undoubtedly contributed to the club's failure to capitalise marketing-wise on the invincibles' legacy, and the strong impression is that he has fostered loyalty to himself, rather than to the club's proud traditions (in the way George Graham did, for example). We have no idea how much power he really has at the club, all we have are badly written paper stories and the twisted views of former players to base things on. He does, however, come across like a man so obsessed with morals and beliefs around how things should be that he cant just accept the way things are.


Look, its easy to be over-critical in hindsight, and on balance I still feel that Wenger has benefitted the club (in terms of its stability if not success) over the period. But I wonder if there has been recently much basis for assuming that 'Arsene knows'. i think this is down to the individual really, some attribute al successes to him while ignoring the failures and others do the opposite. There are people so against him that he could win all 4 trophies this season and he wouldn't get the credit which is of course ridiculous.

The only 2 things that really grate me about him are his behaviour on the touchline and the pathetic tactics we play, he used to be quite adept at setting the team up to play and i remember away games in the champs league, especially at Juve and RM, where we set up defensively and with 5 in midfield and so on, game relevant tactics as it were. Now we just seem happy to pick 11 players and a formation and let them do what they like, it really fucks me off. I do believe another manager could do more with this team but i don't believe another manager could currently do more for the club.

[Flavs]

But I think he is also too close to his project and lacks objectivity.

A victim of his own success IMO, he lack s an opposing view. While we dont know what Pat Rice does i dont often see him disagreeing with Wenger. People always like to compare Wenger to Clough (Which is just ridiculous) but Clough only showed that genius touch when he had Peter Taylor at the side of him to temper his behaviour and style. (and drinking)

Perhaps we need a ying to Wengers yang

[IBK]

This is of course assuming that Wenger handles transfer rather than just submitting a list of players he wants to the board and they go and get them. Also how much input do you really believe Wenger has in deciding who gets what wages?

None if us know for sure, of course. But it is pretty much accepted that AW has a far greater role in how the club is run (ie the financial side) than other managers who merely ask for, and get what the board is prepared to spend. And the manager has made his strong views on the 'proper' value of players very well known - not to mention bringing in his own policies such as the famous over 30 one. It is to me inconceivable (or at least was inconveivable prior to the transfer window just past) that both the choice of players coming in and how much should be paid for them wasn't Wengers. As for wages - as far as I am aware, this concept of parity in wage structure is a Wenger one.





Has it? Didn't we just get £35mil for a player we paid £500k for? And get £25mil for a player we bought for £14mil? How much are Ramsey and Wilshere worth now? Song and Djorou? i would say that while its not lived up to the billing we had been sold by the unstoppable Arsenal PR machine its still reaped huge benefit for the club. I guess it depends on what you thought "project youth" was actually trying to achieve. I would suggest that all youth systems even the bigged up Barca one produce 1 player in 20 that is actually successful, i think we are on par with any team in the world and yes i know we cheat by buying 16-19 year old from other clubs and then converting them but when the catchment area rules went i think that was always going to happen.

Yes - I don't think there is any doubt that project youth Mk 1 - built around Fabregas, with the likes of Clichy; Denilson; Diaby; Bendy Vela; Traore and Nasri has bitten the dust. The latest signings (which if some stories are to believe were partly imposed on Wenger) demonstrate an acknowledgment that what Wenger was trying to achieve - a team of young/developmental players growing together with little in the way of real seasoning - is doomed to end the way we saw it end season after season.

How do I see 'project youth'? Well I see it as an attempt to grow a team organically and on the cheap (transfer wise), and mould a set of mostly young or unknown players into a winning team. It failed. Its quite a Wenger type position to take if you argue that the purpose of project youth was to achieve CL football on the cheap, or to create one or two big profit making transfers per season. AW is a football manager and should be judged primarily by success on the pitch, not in the boardroom. Same goes for the concept of 'benefit'. Only a fool would argue that the transfer profits of Fabregas and Nasri haven't 'benefitted' the club profits wise. But have they benefitted it in terms of our development as a team; has relying on Fabregas (and other relatively inexperienced players) for so many years while he himself learns, and making him captain benefitted those young players around him in terms of their development. Has the policy fostered a sense of Arsenal tradition and empathy - of pride to wear the shirt, as the likes of Scholes, Giggs at Manure; Lampard; Terry at Chelsea have done?

As for relative success rate at developing world class talent - I agree that we compare pretty much to other big clubs. The difference is that this is regarded as Wenger's USP. So parity with elswhere has to be regarded as not good enough. And lately he has had a conspicuous number of real failures - failure being when you can't get your players sold.


I see you have picked all the bad apples there, the things you haven't noted here are agents and billionaire owners. Also would you have wanted us to break the wage structure to keep such players here? I think Wenger has a very good history of knowing when its time to get rid of a player and maybe Anelka aside i cant think of any that have done better without us than while here

I don't think I picked all the bad apples (and there are relatively few 'good ones' anyway - Sagna perhaps?) - I have highlighted the pattern that has emerged of Wenger's greatest successes abandoning the club in most cases as soon as they have developed into potentially silverware-winning players. And this has been the ultimate futility of putting everything into developing players rather than mixing development up with bringing seasoned talent to the club. It has been Groundhog Day, season after season. A profitable Groundhog Day, maybe, but one that has seen our club trapped in a cycle rather than pushing on. I accept that Chelsea and Manure haven't helped - but I dispute that they have prevented us from winning any silverware for 6 years. Looking just at AFC, ultimately we haven't developed as a team during this period.

Re wages there are degrees. I wouldn't have wanted to see intemperate spending on wages, no, but by the same token I would prefer perhaps more attractive packages being offered to existing or incoming proven performers rather than a lot of money spent on rewarding players who represent nothig but potential.


The conflict i see is that some players are accommodated and efforts are made to keep them (i.e. the captaincy and playing style) while others are simply binned at the first chance.

This I do agree with. And Wenger's inconsistency here grates. A problem with lack of objectivity on the manager's part.


I kind of agree with this, the way the actual playing squad are managed seems to get worse season after season, i do wonder if its a character thing by the players as much as the manager. The first great Wenger team had Adams, Keown, Wright etc in it to supplement the younger lads that were coming through, the second team had Bergkamp, Henry and a Vieira that had learned from the first lot. Now the only true, blood and guts, dragging them along with bloody fingernail types are RvP and Vermaelen and they are either injured or overrun.

All part of the same obsessive regime, IMO. I think what we have seen re character is the result of AW's obsession with buying young players to whom he can be a father figure and mould precisely to his ideals; an almost dictatorial situation where he wishes to brook no criticism and a manager who has become too close to his pampered project players (and his own project) that there are few consequences for failure.



We have no idea how much power he really has at the club, all we have are badly written paper stories and the twisted views of former players to base things on. He does, however, come across like a man so obsessed with morals and beliefs around how things should be that he cant just accept the way things are.

Not totally accurate. We know that he wields the kind of power that has enabled him to have the board's support while indulging his experiments; to be given almost unlimited time to do so; and to fail repeatedly to win silverware in circumstances where another manager of a club as big as Arsenal would have been long gone - despite his early success.


i think this is down to the individual really, some attribute al successes to him while ignoring the failures and others do the opposite. There are people so against him that he could win all 4 trophies this season and he wouldn't get the credit which is of course ridiculous.

I too find it tiresome - but by the same token I can well understand the frustration - not to mention the pain of seeing our proud club often almost demeaned by the manager's seemingly erratic behaviour and decisions, some of which you rightly point out below. Its the feeling that Wenger feels entitled to indulge his beliefs with our club - even when the rationale for doing so seems hidden to anyone but him.


The only 2 things that really grate me about him are his behaviour on the touchline and the pathetic tactics we play, he used to be quite adept at setting the team up to play and i remember away games in the champs league, especially at Juve and RM, where we set up defensively and with 5 in midfield and so on, game relevant tactics as it were. Now we just seem happy to pick 11 players and a formation and let them do what they like, it really fucks me off. I do believe another manager could do more with this team but i don't believe another manager could currently do more for the club.

[IBK]

A victim of his own success IMO, he lack s an opposing view. While we dont know what Pat Rice does i dont often see him disagreeing with Wenger. People always like to compare Wenger to Clough (Which is just ridiculous) but Clough only showed that genius touch when he had Peter Taylor at the side of him to temper his behaviour and style. (and drinking)

Perhaps we need a ying to Wengers yang

I've said elsewhere that I think DD performed this role with Wenger.

Great debating, BTW :good:

[selassie]

if you look at the signings and team's improvement over the last 5 years, then we have to draw a line and say tht AW has been a complete failure.

Yep agreed, if he was/is being judged on a RESULTS only basis then he's been a complete failure & should step down.

He only really gets given the benefit of the doubt due to finances and the complete lack of clarity surrounding it at the club.

Saying that, losing the Carling Cup to Birmingham (a team who operate in a completely different market to us) pretty much confirmed that finances really don't play a major part in our failure over the past few seasons.

[IBK]

Yep agreed, if he was/is being judged on a RESULTS only basis then he's been a complete failure & should step down.

He only really gets given the benefit of the doubt due to finances and the complete lack of clarity surrounding it at the club.

Saying that, losing the Carling Cup to Birmingham (a team who operate in a completely different market to us) pretty much confirmed that finances really don't play a major part in our failure over the past few seasons.

Interesting question - quite why Wenger gets so much leeway. Partly explained by his pre 2005 success but IMO its also because like SAF he has become assimilated into the club to such a massive degree (philosphy; business model; degree of control over all aspects of the playing side) that its not really like getting rid of a manager in the ordinary sense. Difference is that SAF has brought footballing success and undoubtedly a footballing legacy even when he steps down.

[Daniele]

Yep agreed, if he was/is being judged on a RESULTS only basis then he's been a complete failure & should step down.

He only really gets given the benefit of the doubt due to finances and the complete lack of clarity surrounding it at the club.

Saying that, losing the Carling Cup to Birmingham (a team who operate in a completely different market to us) pretty much confirmed that finances really don't play a major part in our failure over the past few seasons.

I was one of the few saying 'give AW one more year' at the end of last season. I just wanted to see how he dealt with the trasfers in the summer. He has fucked it up big time and now has to go. We have Arteta and Benayoun where we had Cesc and Nasri. That says it all.

[Flavs]

Not totally accurate. We know that he wields the kind of power that has enabled him to have the board's support while indulging his experiments; to be given almost unlimited time to do so; and to fail repeatedly to win silverware in circumstances where another manager of a club as big as Arsenal would have been long gone - despite his early success.

Sub, i think what probably happened was that when Wenger submitted his original plan to the board for the stadium move it was firmed up with this youth development/sell on plan as well fro robustness. The romantic in me wants to congratulate Wenger for keeping us in it and a few times being very close to winning stuffs while paying off the stadium and not have the luxury of a sugar daddy. The realist in me see's how close we have come and nearly cries that with a few minor deviations from the plan we could have pushed on and won things. I am not trophy obsessed, i don't think many of us are but when we have come so close only to have it snatched away i do have to question whether a different manager could have took us further once Wenger had done the groundwork.

I found myself during last seasons debacle wondering what a man motivator manager such as Coyle or Holloway could do with our player, or what a tactics expert such as Moyes or Hodgson would do with our defence and i couldn't see them being worse than Wenger, we may lose the business and economics side of things by sacking him but are we far enough through the mortgage repayments for that to matter? We now have 2 billionaire owners, could they not swell the coffers to rid us of debt?

:(

[AKBapologist]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW :doh:

[selassie]

I was one of the few saying 'give AW one more year' at the end of last season. I just wanted to see how he dealt with the trasfers in the summer. He has fucked it up big time and now has to go. We have Arteta and Benayoun where we had Cesc and Nasri. That says it all.

I wanted him gone last summer, I thought he made a complete mess of last summers window with his dithering.

The signings of Arteta & Benayoun smack of desperation post 8-2 humiliation against Man U. We had all summer to do our business, quite why he had to go bargain hunting on the last day of the window is anybodies guess.

[IBK]

Sub, i think what probably happened was that when Wenger submitted his original plan to the board for the stadium move it was firmed up with this youth development/sell on plan as well fro robustness. The romantic in me wants to congratulate Wenger for keeping us in it and a few times being very close to winning stuffs while paying off the stadium and not have the luxury of a sugar daddy. The realist in me see's how close we have come and nearly cries that with a few minor deviations from the plan we could have pushed on and won things. I am not trophy obsessed, i don't think many of us are but when we have come so close only to have it snatched away i do have to question whether a different manager could have took us further once Wenger had done the groundwork.

I found myself during last seasons debacle wondering what a man motivator manager such as Coyle or Holloway could do with our player, or what a tactics expert such as Moyes or Hodgson would do with our defence and i couldn't see them being worse than Wenger, we may lose the business and economics side of things by sacking him but are we far enough through the mortgage repayments for that to matter? We now have 2 billionaire owners, could they not swell the coffers to rid us of debt?

:(

I agree with all that. And the purpose of my thread was to try to consider whether AW has become, in fact a net asset or a net liability, when you take both the financials and the football side of things together. Your question


I do have to question whether a different manager could have took us further once Wenger had done the groundwork.

Is on point because for me it encapsulates the dilemna we are in. A less stubborn man with less of a God complex might have acknowledged his own shortcomings and achieved this by bringing in a heavyweight No. 2. Not Wenger. It seems to be his way and his way alone, no matter how obvious the defects. I mean you could almost laugh, couldn't you? He persists and persists with certain players who keep failing him when everyone else in the world can see his folly, and then guess what? They let him down, and those who aren't taken away from him against his wishes he can't sell on because they are overpaid.

He did the business for 3/4 of the season in 07/08 and 10/11 - both years when the opposition wasn't at its best - and the potential shown in the former season, together with the good business he has done finance wise has kept him in power. But instead of learning from his mistakes that season; strengthening properly and developing/mixing up our tactics, Wenger continues to do the same thing again and again...

And its this that has seen him fall so far from grace, because Gooners (and everyone else) have realised that the 'good business' has come at a high price - that price being a manager who is now treating our great club as his personal vanity project.

He has given us a lot, and that is why I would be delighted if our relatively modest signings revitalise and transform the team. But the greater impression is that the manager has driven us into a cul de sac.

[IBK]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW :doh:

....with players every bit of the quality that we have, right? *sighs*

[Flavs]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW :doh:

Shush child the grown ups are speaking.

[Özim]

Coyle who motivated Botlon to a 5 - 0 trashing at Wembley vs Stoke? Or Holloway who motivated a blackpool side back to the championship, the Holloways who's tactically astute and defensively solid high line bravely limited the score to just a 6 - 0 trashing against the donkey that is wenger this time last season?

GW :doh:
1896

That's the last time Arsenal conceded 8 goals in a match, enough said really. This should never happen to a big club in modern day football whatever the circumstances might be (we didn't even have that many players out, Man U had almost as many out).

[AKBapologist]

....with players every bit of the quality that we have, right? *sighs*
The quality that you daily deride the manager for bringing in, putting on high salary's whilst ridiculing for failing to replace? And why should Bolton need top players to not lose 5-0 vs stoke?

*sighs*

[selassie]

Interesting question - quite why Wenger gets so much leeway. Partly explained by his pre 2005 success but IMO its also because like SAF he has become assimilated into the club to such a massive degree (philosphy; business model; degree of control over all aspects of the playing side) that its not really like getting rid of a manager in the ordinary sense. Difference is that SAF has brought footballing success and undoubtedly a footballing legacy even when he steps down.

Yep totally agree, especially the parts I've highlighted. Whilst most Managers have an element of Power, Arsene as you have stated has so much that many of the policies he's implemented cross the boundaries of Football Manager & Director Of Football in Job description type sense.

What is going to be very interesting is how Arsene's successor manages the policies implemented because I can't for one minute think the board will allow a new Manager to step in and change everything overnight.

[Flavs]

And its this that has seen him fall so far from grace, because Gooners (and everyone else) have realised that the 'good business' has come at a high price - that price being a manager who is now treating our great club as his personal vanity project.

Fall from grace might be a bit harsh, we are still a top 4 side despite the burden of a new stadium and the birth of the sugar daddy owner (Ignoring Jack Walker) we have been to 3 cup finals as well, we just fall the wrong side of that fine line people keep talking about. Are we weaker than when we were at Highbury? yes of course we are, is that all down to Wenger? No

To AKBwhatshisfaces point i would suggest that a man management or tactics expert could take what we have right now and do very very well with it, I think if another more, dare i say, "football" manager type had the backing that Wenger has received under such furious criticism they would have won trophies in the last six years IMO.

Tis funny but i watched Wigan play the other night and was genuinely jealous of the effort, self belief and style they were operating with, and they are beyond shite. Comparing that to our keystone cops type of play is like comparing, erm, well Arsenal and Wigan.

[AKBapologist]

Shush child the grown ups are speaking.
/* says the 5 year old girl with her mothers lipstick and oversized grown up clothing during a mock tea party.

Holloway/Coyle for Arsenal manager... :doh: Out of al the rejects you could have picked that would have at least contrasted with Wenger, you picked the two with the most similar flaws and no record of winning anything anywhere beyond promotion. This is the level of debate and rationalism here. The ignorant levels of crap written leave me no choice but to challenge it. I'm sure a bunch of people lurking have just given up.

[selassie]

/* says the 5 year old girl with her mothers lipstick and oversized grown up clothing during a mock tea party.

Holloway/Coyle for Arsenal manager... :doh: Out of al the rejects you could have picked that would have at least contrasted with Wenger, you picked the two with the most similar flaws and no record of winning anything anywhere beyond promotion. This is the level of debate and rationalism here. The ignorant levels of crap written leave me no choice but to challenge it. I'm sure a bunch of people lurking have just given up.

I think Coyle is a good manager who gets a helluva lot out of young talents, Our Jack, Sturridge & Cahill are 3 players he's nurtured very well. Bolton play good football and he's bought very well there. I really don't think he'd be a bad choice, seriously.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Coyle hasn't really improved Bolton, they're pretty much where they were under Megson, just with better football to watch. Individual players for a short period of time? Yeah possibly but like I say, a short period of time!

[Flavs]

/* says the 5 year old girl with her mothers lipstick and oversized grown up clothing during a mock tea party.

Holloway/Coyle for Arsenal manager... :doh: Out of al the rejects you could have picked that would have at least contrasted with Wenger, you picked the two with the most similar flaws and no record of winning anything anywhere beyond promotion. This is the level of debate and rationalism here. The ignorant levels of crap written leave me no choice but to challenge it. I'm sure a bunch of people lurking have just given up.

You think people with different opinions to yours are ignorant?

rofl

[selassie]

Coyle hasn't really improved Bolton, they're pretty much where they were under Megson, just with better football to watch. Individual players for a short period of time? Yeah possibly but like I say, a short period of time!

Megson did OK in his first season, their great end to the season effectively saved him from the sack, obviously he rightly took the credit for keeping them up.

In his second season they were awful, he was on track to relegate them, he's a master at that after all.

Coyle has definitely improved them, not to the extent where they are a top 10 side...but they are decent enough none the less.

[AKBapologist]

I think Coyle is a good manager who gets a helluva lot out of young talents, Our Jack, Sturridge & Cahill are 3 players he's nurtured very well. Bolton play good football and he's bought very well there. I really don't think he'd be a bad choice, seriously.
He's a average to good manager who pretty much see's Wenger has his idol. Develops within his squad 1-2 decent players with the rest mediocre dross. He frequently demonstrates a similar tactical disposition to our current manager. Personally, if our aspirations were to be lowered as a club (ticket prices halved), I wouldn't mind, but you lot would hate the reality.

Alex Mcleish or Ally McCoist would have been a manager I would have hated to see here, but at least have some record for success and have the type of character that contrasts with Wenger. Most of the stuff here is no better than saying Jerremy Clarkson should be the next King of England.

[AKBapologist]

You think people with different opinions to yours are ignorant?

rofl
No, I think people who form their opinions off the back of ignorance, are ignorant.

[Flavs]

No, I think people who form their opinions off the back of ignorance, are ignorant.

right, that's a lot better

[Daniele]

to suggest that McCoist or Coyle or Holloway would be better than AW is preposterous. C'mon. Let's talk about first-class managers, ancelotti, Van Gaal, but those mentioned are managers for minor clubs.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Megson did OK in his first season, their great end to the season effectively saved him from the sack, obviously he rightly took the credit for keeping them up.

In his second season they were awful, he was on track to relegate them, he's a master at that after all.
Coyle has definitely improved them, not to the extent where they are a top 10 side...but they are decent enough none the less.

His second season was 08/09, they finished 13th then. Following season they were down near the relegation zone it's true although they had some games in hand but if I remember rightly it was the combination of not doing too well in the league combined with some fairly erm agricultural football. Early 2010 is when Coyle joined. In terms of league postion they've been around the same place, finishing somewhere between 6-9 points above the relegation zone, for a while now.

[Letters]

if you look at the signings and team's improvement over the last 5 years, then we have to draw a line and say tht AW has been a complete failure.

A complete failure wouldn't have kept us top 4 for so long.

[AKBapologist]

to suggest that McCoist or Coyle or Holloway would be better than AW is preposterous.
But! but! None of those managers would ever lose to united 8-2 or go 6 years without a trophy... 1896!!! 1896!!!!

[Cripps_orig]

But! but! None of those managers would ever lose to united 8-2 or go 6 years without a trophy... 1896!!! 1896!!!!

Well they havent lost 8-2 to Man Utd and with arguable worse team than ours

[Flavs]

to suggest that McCoist or Coyle or Holloway would be better than AW is preposterous. .

Didn't you just say that Wenger has been a complete failure?

Also i would suggest that when Wenger does finally retire/leave/get sacked/get lynched Arsenal wont go for a prestige manager or a so called "big name" but will go for a lesser known manager who can take what Wenger leaves behind and drive it on.

[Joker]

If we compare Coyle to Wenger as he is these days, I would personally prefer Coyle tbh. Like I said, Wenger is seriously lacking in tactical nous, which is why so many managers of teams from the mid/lower end of the Premier League have frequently out-thought him in the last 5 years. Remember how Bolton used to get so many results against us with Sam Allardyce? What about Stoke beating us on several occasions in the last 3 seasons? We lost so many points last season against teams that we should be expected to beat, like Newcastle and West Brom at home. Moreover, we've struggled significantly against teams who play a defensive game at the Emirates, while having sufficient technical ability to keep hold of the ball for periods in the game (like Sunderland) Wenger regularly whines that the reason we've lost points against these teams is that they play 10 men behind the ball, or are overly physical etc, but the reality is that Wenger is unable to devise a plan to break these teams down, and has failed to bring in players who are well suited to playing against these teams (which is why his lack of signings from the EPL is a big flaw) Sam Allardyce has managed to get so many points off Wenger by using the same style over and over again, and the fact that Wenger is unable to counter it is a damning indictment of his lack of tactical intelligence.

At the moment, Wenger is one of the poorer managers in the EPL if we look at the whole package (i.e. tactics, motivation, results etc) Coyle wouldn't be my first choice by any means, but if given the choice, I'd choose him above Wenger atm.

[AKBapologist]

Well they havent lost 8-2 to Man Utd and with arguable worse team than ours
Because it's by magic that our team is better than theirs?

/* actually it isn't that much better, beyond a few stars, players that leave arsenal generally flop else where.

[Joker]

/* actually it isn't that much better, beyond a few stars, players that leave arsenal generally flop else where.

If it isn't that much better, surely that's another indictment of Wenger? We're much richer than the Bolton's and Stoke's of this world, and yet we can't afford to assemble a squad that is significantly superior to these teams? What happened to Wenger's so called great ability to find talented players whom he can then groom into top quality footballers?

[Daniele]

Didn't you just say that Wenger has been a complete failure?

Also i would suggest that when Wenger does finally retire/leave/get sacked/get lynched Arsenal wont go for a prestige manager or a so called "big name" but will go for a lesser known manager who can take what Wenger leaves behind and drive it on.

he's been a failure for 5 years out of 15 and his time is up but Arsenal need a manager with vision, great personality and experience at European level. McCoist is a novice, McLeish got relegated with the Brums twice, Holloway is good at joking but has been in the Pl as manager for one season. There are better candidates available, people who would take the positives of the Wenger era and add the qualities that we need to get back to winning ways.

[Daniele]

some people see someone who shouts and says fuck off all the time sitting on the bench and think 'hey, that's what we have been lacking, x is a great motivator, unlike AW'. Ridicolous. Shouting doesn't mean anything. I don't believe in the motivational issue. When he won the league he was a good motivator and now he isn't?

[Flavs]

he's been a failure for 5 years out of 15 and his time is up but Arsenal need a manager with vision, great personality and experience at European level. McCoist is a novice, McLeish got relegated with the Brums twice, Holloway is good at joking but has been in the Pl as manager for one season. There are better candidates available, people who would take the positives of the Wenger era and add the qualities that we need to get back to winning ways.

But if up and coming managers aren't given a shot at the big jobs how do they become top managers? I remember when Dein announced Wenger was taking over and i also remember the media and pretty much the whole footballing world going "WHO??"

I would rather us give the job to an up and coming manager than some big name numpty like Ancelotti and see what they can do with it. I loved the thread about arsenals next manager when some posters were saying they wanted Mourinho here cos he would win trophies, i will rather go a lifetime trophyless than have some classless coward like that take over.

[Daniele]

i've got nothing against up and coming managers. Only thing is that I don't see those mentioned as potential Arsenal managers. Martinez, more likely, even though I know we will end up with Dragan Stojkovic.

[Flavs]

some people see someone who shouts and says fuck off all the time sitting on the bench and think 'hey, that's what we have been lacking, x is a great motivator, unlike AW'. Ridicolous. Shouting doesn't mean anything. I don't believe in the motivational issue. When he won the league he was a good motivator and now he isn't?

Well i would suggest that within the team that last won the league there was enough character to keep motivated, now? Who identifies players to buy? The manager who has left us with a team of such weak mentalities? The manager

[AKBapologist]

But if up and coming managers aren't given a shot at the big jobs how do they become top managers? I remember when Dein announced Wenger was taking over and i also remember the media and pretty much the whole footballing world going "WHO??"

I would rather us give the job to an up and coming manager than some big name numpty like Ancelotti and see what they can do with it. I loved the thread about arsenals next manager when some posters were saying they wanted Mourinho here cos he would win trophies, i will rather go a lifetime trophyless than have some classless coward like that take over.
Up and coming managers who have consistently won stuff with smaller clubs. It's what AW did at France, SAF did with Aberdeen in Scotland and exceptionally few managers are doing now.

And picking won nothing, nobodies has it's own problems such as convincing ego's in the dressing room to give a shit. You'll go from having someone who almost every professional in the game respects, to someone the players will jump ship or avoid like the plague at the first sign of danger. Means transfers would be harder, keeping players will be harder, and unless the manager is instantly successful, the unsustainable "lost the dressing room" effect will happen eventually leading to a sack.

[Daniele]

Well i would suggest that within the team that last won the league there was enough character to keep motivated, now? Who identifies players to buy? The manager who has left us with a team of such weak mentalities? The manager

well, I wouldn't bring up the motivational issue anyway. I mean we've got captains of their national teams in Rosicky and Arshavin and so on. Henry was nobody before coming here, at Juventus he was crap. Vieira was a kid and Inter were looking forward to getting rid of Bergkamp when we signed him under Rioch. AW's main fault has been that he has got most signings wrong in the last 5 years to me.

[AKBapologist]

Well i would suggest that within the team that last won the league there was enough character to keep motivated, now? Who identifies players to buy? The manager who has left us with a team of such weak mentalities? The manager
Which is it? Is our squad strong or weak? Seems to flip flop dependant on whatever suits your point of view at the time.

[Özim]

But! but! None of those managers would ever lose to united 8-2 or go 6 years without a trophy... 1896!!! 1896!!!!
Too right.

Wenger has become a joke, both in the media and to his own fans, does nothing but spout nonsense, tactically inept, poor in the transfer market, unable to solve problem areas.

The 8-2 thrashing was a culmination of those things, that defeat has been coming for a while because of the way he's mismanaged the club, make no mistake though this is not a one off, some of the results in the last few years have been nothing short of embarrassing for the club.

We've finally seen a scoreline has reflected just how poor we can be at times.

[Flavs]

well, I wouldn't bring up the motivational issue anyway. I mean we've got captains of their national teams in Rosicky and Arshavin and so on. Henry was nobody before coming here, at Juventus he was crap. Vieira was a kid and Inter were looking forward to getting rid of Bergkamp when we signed him under Rioch. AW's main fault has been that he has got most signings wrong in the last 5 years to me.

I disagree, the players we have, have the ability and the technical gifts to be great, what they lack is the self belief and the character to get wins when they are taking knocks, this team has a glass jaw its as simple as that. How many times in the last couple of seasons have we conceded a goal and the heads dropped and then ambled on. Who do the players look to when they are down and out? The manager, sadly the one we have seems to be unable to get them up for any more. IMO Wenger doesn't exude that air of confidence or that winning knack any more, he looks more like a lost old man. I agree that some of the signings have been wrong but even a shit player can be driven on by an inspirational leader, which we don't have.

Also comparing the character and self motivational ability of Henry and Vieira to Rosicky and Arshavin is just silly.

[fakeyank]

I disagree, the players we have, have the ability and the technical gifts to be great, what they lack is the self belief and the character to get wins when they are taking knocks, this team has a glass jaw its as simple as that. How many times in the last couple of seasons have we conceded a goal and the heads dropped and then ambled on. Who do the players look to when they are down and out? The manager, sadly the one we have seems to be unable to get them up for any more. IMO Wenger doesn't exude that air of confidence or that winning knack any more, he looks more like a lost old man. I agree that some of the signings have been wrong but even a shit player can be driven on by an inspirational leader, which we don't have.

Also comparing the character and self motivational ability of Henry and Vieira to Rosicky and Arshavin is just silly.

:gp:

Th14, Vieira had players like Keown, Adams, Parlour who were known winners on the football pitch (not so much off it). These players moulded PV4, TH14 to be winners. Who did JW, RVP, Cesc have to really look up to? One of Arsene's biggest mistakes was to take out experience out of the team so quick. Look at Utd... they hold on to stars like Scholes, Giggs, VDS, Rio so that future leaders can be moulded. What do we do the moment a player hits 30? Kick them out coz they are killing the foetus in Mrs. Smiths womb!

[selassie]

His second season was 08/09, they finished 13th then. Following season they were down near the relegation zone it's true although they had some games in hand but if I remember rightly it was the combination of not doing too well in the league combined with some fairly erm agricultural football. Early 2010 is when Coyle joined. In terms of league postion they've been around the same place, finishing somewhere between 6-9 points above the relegation zone, for a while now.

Fair do's.

For some reason I thought Megson only had 1 and a bit seasons there.

[Daniele]

I disagree, the players we have, have the ability and the technical gifts to be great, what they lack is the self belief and the character to get wins when they are taking knocks, this team has a glass jaw its as simple as that. How many times in the last couple of seasons have we conceded a goal and the heads dropped and then ambled on. Who do the players look to when they are down and out? The manager, sadly the one we have seems to be unable to get them up for any more. IMO Wenger doesn't exude that air of confidence or that winning knack any more, he looks more like a lost old man. I agree that some of the signings have been wrong but even a shit player can be driven on by an inspirational leader, which we don't have.

Also comparing the character and self motivational ability of Henry and Vieira to Rosicky and Arshavin is just silly.

this team hasn't got a single player that stands out. Only half-players and some decent ones. I didn't compare the character of Arshavin and Rosicky with other players, I was only saying that they captain their national teams so they must have some kind of character. Also players like Vieira and Henry were the makings of AW, as they were nobody before coming to us. Henry's first touch was as poor as Walcott's at Juventus and Monaco, Vieira was sold by Milan after playing just one game at Bordeaux. He was pants.

AW spotted their qualities and developed them. I think that what he got wrong during these trophyless years are the signngs. Motivation means nothing at all if we don't know players and human being personally. Maybe Rosicky is vocal, maybe not. Who knows? You? Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. Not from me.

[Daniele]

to me there's something very wrong in our perception of the team. Arsenal have never been a great European side. we reached the EC final with AW in 2006 and won 6 league titles over the last 40 years. Three through AW who also presided over the Unbeaten season. To go 6 seasons without winning a major trophy is commonplace for this club.

In his 15 years tenure I never expected AW's Arsenal to win the league, as at least one club, Man Utd, always had a better equipped team than ours. When you talk about Great British teams steeped in the memory of European fans, they talk about Utd and Liverpool as Arsenal have won next to nought abroad.

AW has taken Arsenal to a level where we have never been before, setting standards that are setting up his own downfall.

[fakeyank]

to me there's something very wrong in our perception of the team. Arsenal have never been a great European side. we reached the EC final with AW in 2006 and won 6 league titles over the last 40 years. Three through AW who also presided over the Unbeaten season. To go 6 seasons without winning a major trophy is commonplace for this club.

In his 15 years tenure I never expected AW's Arsenal to win the league, as at least one club, Man Utd, always had a better equipped team than ours. When you talk about Great British teams steeped in the memory of European fans, they talk about Utd and Liverpool as Arsenal have won next to nought abroad.

AW has taken Arsenal to a level where we have never been before, setting standards that are setting up his own downfall.

The problem ALL AW backers fail to see is what he IS doing to the club. As far as my perception of the whole situation goes, its not the fact that AW has not won a trophy, it IS the fact that we do not even TRY. Back in the stone ages when we didnt win trophies, we put our best foot forward going into a season. We have a net profit in transfers yet they are not addressed. We have the same defensive frailties that are not addressed... how much more can a fan take?

Also another important thing to take note is that sooner rather than later, the big elite clubs will be miles ahead of others. This is not 1960 where all 20 teams starting the PL season has a chance to win the league. Times are different and for better or worse, it will remain the same. If we sit and procrastinate saying that we have gone zillions of years without a trophy, we can add 6 more to that, then thats a huge freakin mistake. We need to keep pace with the Utd's, Chelsea's, Barca's and Milan's of the world.

What are the fans really asking? Nobody I know has mentioned that we need to break the bank and sign a 50 million quid player. All we are asking is for some change in tactics, add some experience. Why couldnt Arteta, Santos, Mertesacker and Chu Young been added earlier? We have had glaring problems at CB position for years and IMO, it is yet not completely solved.. whose fault is it?

Wenger WAS good.. he is past it now. For his sake, I hope he doesnt tarnish his legacy at Arsenal.

[Cripps_orig]

I hope he doesnt tarnish his legacy at Arsenal.

Too late imo.

[IBK]

The quality that you daily deride the manager for bringing in, putting on high salary's whilst ridiculing for failing to replace? And why should Bolton need top players to not lose 5-0 vs stoke?

*sighs*

Pointless arguing with the best Arsenal Fan in the World ever, really.

[Cripps_orig]

Pointless arguing with the best Arsenal Fan in the World ever, really.

NBN die?

[IBK]

Fall from grace might be a bit harsh, we are still a top 4 side despite the burden of a new stadium and the birth of the sugar daddy owner (Ignoring Jack Walker) we have been to 3 cup finals as well, we just fall the wrong side of that fine line people keep talking about. Are we weaker than when we were at Highbury? yes of course we are, is that all down to Wenger? No

To AKBwhatshisfaces point i would suggest that a man management or tactics expert could take what we have right now and do very very well with it, I think if another more, dare i say, "football" manager type had the backing that Wenger has received under such furious criticism they would have won trophies in the last six years IMO.

Tis funny but i watched Wigan play the other night and was genuinely jealous of the effort, self belief and style they were operating with, and they are beyond shite. Comparing that to our keystone cops type of play is like comparing, erm, well Arsenal and Wigan.

Oh I meant relatively speaking (re fall from grace). There was a time when 'Arsene Knew' and there was as little a reason to question what he is doing than there is with SAF. Different times now (unless you are AKB - whose name says it all really).

[IBK]

NBN die?

:lol: I think AKB is his love child!

[Letters]

The problem ALL AW backers fail to see is what he IS doing to the club. As far as my perception of the whole situation goes, its not the fact that AW has not won a trophy, it IS the fact that we do not even TRY. Back in the stone ages when we didnt win trophies, we put our best foot forward going into a season. We have a net profit in transfers yet they are not addressed. We have the same defensive frailties that are not addressed... how much more can a fan take?

What's frustrating is that IMO he is the reason we're still top 4 (I think under most managers during the stadium move and with the rise and rise of the billionaire owner and other clubs spending big we'd have long since slipped out) but I also think he's the reason we've not won a trophy for so long as a mixture of stubbornness, idealism and poor coaching has seen us fail.
It's a maddening combination.

[AKBapologist]

I like the fact that because I don't want Wenger replaced by a know nothing, won nothing, noboby I automatically believe he's beyond any criticism.

And my name is ironic, but then again based on some of your arguments I wouldn't expect the *grown ups* in here to even know what that means.

[Marc Overmars]

Good read

[Dog Toffee]

*puts fingers in ears and chants 'Wenger Knows'*

[selassie]

The problem ALL AW backers fail to see is what he IS doing to the club. As far as my perception of the whole situation goes, its not the fact that AW has not won a trophy, it IS the fact that we do not even TRY. Back in the stone ages when we didnt win trophies, we put our best foot forward going into a season. We have a net profit in transfers yet they are not addressed. We have the same defensive frailties that are not addressed... how much more can a fan take?

Also another important thing to take note is that sooner rather than later, the big elite clubs will be miles ahead of others. This is not 1960 where all 20 teams starting the PL season has a chance to win the league. Times are different and for better or worse, it will remain the same. If we sit and procrastinate saying that we have gone zillions of years without a trophy, we can add 6 more to that, then thats a huge freakin mistake. We need to keep pace with the Utd's, Chelsea's, Barca's and Milan's of the world.

What are the fans really asking? Nobody I know has mentioned that we need to break the bank and sign a 50 million quid player. All we are asking is for some change in tactics, add some experience. Why couldnt Arteta, Santos, Mertesacker and Chu Young been added earlier? We have had glaring problems at CB position for years and IMO, it is yet not completely solved.. whose fault is it?

Wenger WAS good.. he is past it now. For his sake, I hope he doesnt tarnish his legacy at Arsenal.

:gp:

[fakeyank]

What's frustrating is that IMO he is the reason we're still top 4 (I think under most managers during the stadium move and with the rise and rise of the billionaire owner and other clubs spending big we'd have long since slipped out) but I also think he's the reason we've not won a trophy for so long as a mixture of stubbornness, idealism and poor coaching has seen us fail.
It's a maddening combination.

I completely agree on that but you have to look at that with some context. In 2007 when we moved to the stadium, we still had a few of the invincibles and some players who rubbed shoulders with members of the invincibles- TH14, Gilberto, Jens, Flamini, RVP, Cesc, Kolo. The speed at which AW took out the experience in the squad baffles me.. TH14 loves the club but he really didnt see any ambition from us, so he left and deservedly won the CL with Barca. Gilberto was sold. Flamini wasnt given a pay rise. Kolo was sold etc.

You then look over at Man Utd and see how SAF has held onto experience like Giggs, VDS, Scholes, Rio and you see the difference. These guys are winners and the youngsters were allowed to train with them, learn from them and know what it takes to win- on and off the field. AW just looked at the age and once it was 30+, the player would be chucked out... football games are not only won on the pitch, a majority of it is off it. Think if we had resigned PV4 last season instead of City.. u think PV4 wouldve let us slide into the depths of despair after our CC final.. heck, you think he'd have let us run onto the CC final with that lacklusre attitude? He'd have fired the players up for the game. What we saw was a bunch of youngsters over confident about a win playing with no heart... we came 2nd best to a team that got relegated... in a cup final. Nuff Said!

Some people say that AW was never the person to shout and scream.. no, he wasnt but he had people who would tear laidback cunts a new hole- Keown, Campbell, Vieira, Adams, Parlour etc. Who do we have now? Everyone is AW's love child and nobody will utter a word against him. AW is their father who hasnt done a thing wrong..
Coming to the point, I do not know if another manager wouldve secured top 4 after moving to Emirates but I bloody damn well know that he wouldve tried awfully hard to mesh experience with youth and not just abandoned all sense of sanity for the youth project.

[Niall_Quinn]

What's frustrating is that IMO he is the reason we're still top 4 (I think under most managers during the stadium move and with the rise and rise of the billionaire owner and other clubs spending big we'd have long since slipped out) but I also think he's the reason we've not won a trophy for so long as a mixture of stubbornness, idealism and poor coaching has seen us fail.
It's a maddening combination.

Wenger's performance precisely accommodates the financial project at the expense of the football team, it's easy enough to see that. If we needed to finish 3rd to qualify for the money, we would be 3rd every year. If 15th was enough then we'd finish 15th. It really isn't about the football at Arsenal any more. Not in a competitive sense anyway. The youth project fits nicely into the financial agenda too. Cheap fees, cheap wages, get a few years out of them and move them on. If they make it then grab the big transfer fees. Rinse and repeat. Until the Utd result. Maybe even the board has realised there's only so much the fans will put up with before the income stream is jeopardised. All about the money, all the time. And they are so fucking dishonest about it.

[Niall_Quinn]

The problem ALL AW backers fail to see is what he IS doing to the club. As far as my perception of the whole situation goes, its not the fact that AW has not won a trophy, it IS the fact that we do not even TRY. Back in the stone ages when we didnt win trophies, we put our best foot forward going into a season. We have a net profit in transfers yet they are not addressed. We have the same defensive frailties that are not addressed... how much more can a fan take?

Also another important thing to take note is that sooner rather than later, the big elite clubs will be miles ahead of others. This is not 1960 where all 20 teams starting the PL season has a chance to win the league. Times are different and for better or worse, it will remain the same. If we sit and procrastinate saying that we have gone zillions of years without a trophy, we can add 6 more to that, then thats a huge freakin mistake. We need to keep pace with the Utd's, Chelsea's, Barca's and Milan's of the world.

What are the fans really asking? Nobody I know has mentioned that we need to break the bank and sign a 50 million quid player. All we are asking is for some change in tactics, add some experience. Why couldnt Arteta, Santos, Mertesacker and Chu Young been added earlier? We have had glaring problems at CB position for years and IMO, it is yet not completely solved.. whose fault is it?

Wenger WAS good.. he is past it now. For his sake, I hope he doesnt tarnish his legacy at Arsenal.

As I've said before, I doubt he's gone from being the coach of the Invincibles to utterly incompetent in such a short space of time. Neither do I think he's past it. I just believe his job description is different now. Previously it was to manage a football team and win trophies, and he did that well. Since the stadium move it has been to manage finances and to be fair he's done that well too. Shame about the team though, the team and the fans got fucked.

[IBK]

What's frustrating is that IMO he is the reason we're still top 4 (I think under most managers during the stadium move and with the rise and rise of the billionaire owner and other clubs spending big we'd have long since slipped out) but I also think he's the reason we've not won a trophy for so long as a mixture of stubbornness, idealism and poor coaching has seen us fail.
It's a maddening combination.

Nail on head. The big question is whether we are now starting to drift downwards - not simply relative to the mega spenders but relative to the quality and performances of our own teams since 2006.

What frustrates me are the extremes. Wenger has been shown to be very much the flawed genius, but the way some people talk he has just seen us relegated!

[IBK]

I like the fact that because I don't want Wenger replaced by a know nothing, won nothing, noboby I automatically believe he's beyond any criticism.

And my name is ironic, but then again based on some of your arguments I wouldn't expect the *grown ups* in here to even know what that means.

Oh please. Stop being so childish. You take a high-minded approach belittling people on here as stupid, and then get all prickly when you are called on it. Get off your high horse.

[fakeyank]

Oh please. Stop being so childish. You take a high-minded approach belittling people on here as stupid, and then get all prickly when you are called on it. Get off your high horse.

:gp:

From what I can understand, backing AW is the elite thing to do these days. Its what intellectuals do... the masses who want AW out are the dumbasses with no college education. You should be ashamed of your ignorance IBK.. in fact, I should be ashamed of myself too.. :(

[GP]

Cool story bro

[Letters]

Wenger's performance precisely accommodates the financial project at the expense of the football team, it's easy enough to see that. If we needed to finish 3rd to qualify for the money, we would be 3rd every year. If 15th was enough then we'd finish 15th. It really isn't about the football at Arsenal any more. Not in a competitive sense anyway. The youth project fits nicely into the financial agenda too. Cheap fees, cheap wages, get a few years out of them and move them on. If they make it then grab the big transfer fees. Rinse and repeat. Until the Utd result. Maybe even the board has realised there's only so much the fans will put up with before the income stream is jeopardised. All about the money, all the time. And they are so fucking dishonest about it.

Cheap wages?! Our wage bill is one of the highest in the country, only exceeded by 2 clubs who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and Utd whose income is much bigger than ours. Wenger has been roundly criticised on here for paying players too much money.

@FY - agree with your post. We needed a mix of youth and experience, the signings in the scramble on deadline day will hopefully give us that so there are some signs that Wenger has somewhat changed tack in that regard.

[Letters]

From what I can understand, backing AW is the elite thing to do these days. Its what intellectuals do... the masses who want AW out are the dumbasses with no college education.

Well, no. But your disrespect towards him is uncalled for IMO. And those who portray Wenger as this bumbling idiot are being ridiculous. For all our problems last year we still finished 4th. Whether we will this year remains to be seen and it will definitely be our hardest battle to date for a top 4 finish but that is in part because of City's billions which we can't do anything about.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

:gp:

From what I can understand, backing AW is the elite thing to do these days. Its what intellectuals do... the masses who want AW out are the dumbasses with no college education. You should be ashamed of your ignorance IBK.. in fact, I should be ashamed of myself too.. :(

Says the guy who not so long ago basically called people 'blind idiots' for voting for Wenger to remain as manager. All this 'woe is me/woe is us' stuff doesn't do this board any favours and I mean that for either 'side'.

[Özim]

Well, no. But your disrespect towards him is uncalled for IMO. And those who portray Wenger as this bumbling idiot are being ridiculous. For all our problems last year we still finished 4th. Whether we will this year remains to be seen and it will definitely be our hardest battle to date for a top 4 finish but that is in part because of City's billions which we can't do anything about.
4th is all we hear when it comes to Wenger these days.

Let's be honest here, which top club athlete/sportsman is happy with 4th place everytime...it's a rubbish position to be in and to hail it as some sort of great result is way off the mark.

I'm sorry but 4th place is no achievement and when you look at some of the embarrassing results he's managed to produce he shouldn't still be here IMO, the way some of his teams have gone out for matches with next to no desire and have collapsed so often is just unbelievable.

For it to happen as often as it has reflects very badly on him, as does giving away some ridiculous leads and the manner in which we have been outclassed by certain teams in recent years.

The 8-2 defeat was beyond embarrassing and the fact he still gets support after it is mystifying, he's the guy who built this team and decided he didn't need players after all, he's also the guy that sent his team out with no apparent game plan like lambs to the slaughter, he also decided that it's OK to play rookies in games against sides as good as Man U.

On top of that Man U didn't have to play as well as they could and had players out themselves. I'm sick of these supposedly "freak results", for years these were very rare, but recently they seem to be happening more and more and that's down to a guy who just doesn't know what he's doing.

He's dragging the club down IMO and making us a bit of a laughing stock, both with his actions/words and his management style.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Finishing 4th sucks. But I doubt we will even manage that. But I've now come to accept that under our current model within the way the EPL is now, we have no chance at all of winning the league in the forseeable future - regardless of who manages us.

That is not to say I would like us to adopt the model of Man City or Chelsea. Far from it.

[Letters]

4th is all we hear when it comes to Wenger these days.

Let's be honest here, which top club athlete/sportsman is happy with 4th place everytime...it's a rubbish position to be in and to hail it as some sort of great result is way off the mark.

In terms of a league 4th says you're the 4th best side in the country. Given that two of the sides above us are fuelled by billionaires it's nonsense to say it's 'no achievement.' A few sides have spent big to try and achieve it and failed. Obviously we need to suppliment a decent league finish with some trophies and that is where Wenger has failed but to keep any club in the top 4 for so long is more than any other manager bar Fergie has achieved. You're acting as though it's easy to finish in the top in the PL each season, that's obviously not true. Given that he has done that the failure to win trophies is damning but it's just plain wrong to think that any idiot could have kept us up there. Plenty of other clubs aspiring to finish in the top 4 have hired and fired other managers and given them pots of money to spend to try to get there and they've failed.

[IBK]

In terms of a league 4th says you're the 4th best side in the country. Given that two of the sides above us are fuelled by billionaires it's nonsense to say it's 'no achievement.' A few sides have spent big to try and achieve it and failed. Obviously we need to suppliment a decent league finish with some trophies and that is where Wenger has failed but to keep any club in the top 4 for so long is more than any other manager bar Fergie has achieved. You're acting as though it's easy to finish in the top in the PL each season, that's obviously not true. Given that he has done that the failure to win trophies is damning but it's just plain wrong to think that any idiot could have kept us up there. Plenty of other clubs aspiring to finish in the top 4 have hired and fired other managers and given them pots of money to spend to try to get there and they've failed.

The irony is that Wenger has created these expectations. The frustration is the realisation that the same manager's shortcomings have most likely prevented us from winning any trophies for 6 years. The regret is that had those shortcomings not been present, we could probably have won the title at least once before Citeh had become a serious obstacle to doing so. The sadness is that 4th may be as good as it gets for AFC now.

[Niall_Quinn]

The irony is that Wenger has created these expectations. The frustration is the realisation that the same manager's shortcomings have most likely prevented us from winning any trophies for 6 years. The regret is that had those shortcomings not been present, we could probably have won the title at least once before Citeh had become a serious obstacle to doing so. The sadness is that 4th may be as good as it gets for AFC now.

I can live with 4th being as good as it gets provided we are always trying to be 1st, and no bullshit - a genuine effort to be 1st in everything all the time. That's the absolute minimum I expect from a supposedly competitive team. 100% effort, 100% ambition and 100% desire. We don't have that at Arsenal, we have players that give less than 100%, we have ambition tuned to the balance sheet rather than the team, we have zero desire when the going gets tough. Not good enough. Manager's fault for sure in terms of what goes on on the pitch, board's fault for sure in terms of what goes on off the pitch. They can pretend the buck stops with Man City but it doesn't. Aiming for 4th is shit, shit, shit.

[IBK]

Cheap wages?! Our wage bill is one of the highest in the country, only exceeded by 2 clubs who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and Utd whose income is much bigger than ours. Wenger has been roundly criticised on here for paying players too much money.

@FY - agree with your post. We needed a mix of youth and experience, the signings in the scramble on deadline day will hopefully give us that so there are some signs that Wenger has somewhat changed tack in that regard.

I'd love to believe this, but the jury's out a bit for me on this front. Palmer posted this blog extract (he's too 'anti' and sensationalist for my tastes, but I'll take a third party souce)


The BBC blog by Dan Roan described the scene at Highbury house at 9pm on deadline day :

In the chief executive's office, Ivan Gazidis had spent the day making phone calls to agents and officials at other clubs as he tried desperately to complete the spending spree that the summer sales of Cesc Fabregas and Samir Nasri had enabled and which the humiliating 8-2 defeat by Manchester United had subsequently made a necessity. A few yards away, club secretary David Miles, chief accountant Stuart Wisely and head lawyer Svenja Geissmar were working furiously, filling out registration documents and ensuring they were emailed to the Premier League. In all, 20 officials from the club's finance and legal departments were working harder than they could remember.

Now looking past this unseemly last minute scramble (which is equally bad, IMO, whether it was a strategy designed purely to drive incoming transfer fees down - thereby putting profit firmly above the interests of the team; bad planning; or a knee jerk reaction to the Manure result) - in this extract I see signs of board influence, rather than Wengers (he was in Switzerland, wasn't he - and has a reputation of being meticulous rather than last minute).

I'm not sure that a leopard as entranched in his ways and views as AW changes overnight, and I am sceptical as to whether he is humble enough to have accepted even now that his vision is flawed. I am glad of the change of policy whether intended or enforced, and if the new signings dramatically change our fortunes then even Wenger will have to bend. But I'm biding my time before anticipating a real change of tack from our manager.

[Coney]

The irony is that Wenger has created these expectations. The frustration is the realisation that the same manager's shortcomings have most likely prevented us from winning any trophies for 6 years. The regret is that had those shortcomings not been present, we could probably have won the title at least once before Citeh had become a serious obstacle to doing so. The sadness is that 4th may be as good as it gets for AFC now.

I don't think Wenger wants us to be 4th - I'm sure he'd like 1st the same as we would. The 4th thing is the minimum target for the year - in effect, he is saying that we must try and have CL football each year. Looking at his face during the last few games of the season make it quite clear that he does not like coming 4th. However, the loss of revenue from not getting to at least 4th would be significant and whether he stays or another manager comes along, we need that money coming on a regular basis, plus we need the carrot of CL football to stand a chance of attracting players.

[IBK]

I don't think Wenger wants us to be 4th - I'm sure he'd like 1st the same as we would. The 4th thing is the minimum target for the year - in effect, he is saying that we must try and have CL football each year. Looking at his face during the last few games of the season make it quite clear that he does not like coming 4th. However, the loss of revenue from not getting to at least 4th would be significant and whether he stays or another manager comes along, we need that money coming on a regular basis, plus we need the carrot of CL football to stand a chance of attracting players.

For sure he doesn't. But his blindspots mean that this is about the limit that he will achieve now without radical change - and even then there is the financial doping to contend with.

[Dog Toffee]

Shut up.

[AKBapologist]

:gp:

From what I can understand, backing AW is the elite thing to do these days. Its what intellectuals do... the masses who want AW out are the dumbasses with no college education. You should be ashamed of your ignorance IBK.. in fact, I should be ashamed of myself too.. :(

LoL your dumb asses because for all the times I say it, you still can't understand the fact that I want AW out. It is possible to defend someone from silly pathetic hypebole whilst still wanting a change. And until you can deal wirh your inability to hold too competing ideas amoungst other things in ones mind, I will continue to point out your intellectual deficiencies in kind.

[Xhaka Can’t]

LoL your dumb asses because for all the times I say it, you still can't understand the fact that I want AW out. It is possible to defend someone from silly pathetic hypebole whilst still wanting a change. And until you can deal wirh your inability to hold too competing ideas amoungst other things in ones mind, I will continue to point out your intellectual deficiencies in kind.

If you are going to call people 'dumb asses', you had better get it grammatically correct.

Just saying.

[Letters]

:lol:

[fakeyank]

If you are going to call people 'dumb asses', you had better get it grammatically correct.

Just saying.

:pal:

AKB :rose:

[Coney]

If you are going to call people 'dumb asses', you had better get it grammatically correct.

Just saying.

"Well double dumb-ass on you"
(James Tiberius Kirk, The Journey Home)

[Master Splinter]

I wonder how many times GB. went over his post to make sure he didn't get something wrong.

He even put the 'g' on the end of 'saying' to make sure he was covered.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I saved time by PMing WMUG. :good:

[Master Splinter]

What's a WMUG?

[fakeyank]

What's a WMUG?

Wheres my Username Gone

[AKBapologist]

If you are going to call people 'dumb asses', you had better get it grammatically correct.

Just saying.
:lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Wheres my Username Gone

Left of the page, next to your post. I can see it fine. Maybe it's a problem with your computer. Try buying a new one.

[Darth Vela]

"Well double dumb-ass on you"
(James Tiberius Kirk, The Journey Home)

:lol:

That's exactly what goes through my head every time I hear 'dumb ass', except I call him Jim, we're tight like that.

Incidentally, in 2006-8 AW was without a doubt a benefit as that was when the belt was tightest but since then the line is a little blurry as we've needed a little something extra and it's taken till now to actually get the squad a bit better balanced, both in terms of type of players and experience.

[IBK]

:lol:

That's exactly what goes through my head every time I hear 'dumb ass', except I call him Jim, we're tight like that.

Incidentally, in 2006-8 AW was without a doubt a benefit as that was when the belt was tightest but since then the line is a little blurry as we've needed a little something extra and it's taken till now to actually get the squad a bit better balanced, both in terms of type of players and experience.

I'd say the jury's out on this performance rather than paper-wise...

[Guns of Gibraltar]

Wenger the second most successful manager in the EPL after Fergie (on a tenth of Fergie's budget) has obviously been shit to AFC. So much vile in the press about Wenger is just unbelievable. I wonder, quoting Ali G, if "it's because I is French?"

[LDG]

Wenger the second most successful manager in the EPL after Fergie (on a tenth of Fergie's budget) has obviously been shit to AFC. So much vile in the press about Wenger is just unbelievable. I wonder, quoting Ali G, if "it's because I is French?"

Of course, you have a point.

But so does everybody else, when they say the stubborn cunt has refused to make the necessary changes when it is all to apparent to every cunt on the planet, that those changes are needed.

8-2 is one of the worst and most embarrassing results in the history of the club, off the back of one of the most calamatous season run-ins ever, and one of the most dithering summer transfer dealings ever. And it is down to our board and Wenger.

[Dog Toffee]

So one bad (ok, awful) result and that changes GoG's point? No.

And it appears Wenger has made the changes that are necessary. Considering we lost our 2 best players in the summer, we've come out of it quite well IMO.

[LDG]

So one bad (ok, awful) result and that changes GoG's point? No.

And it appears Wenger has made the changes that are necessary. Considering we lost our 2 best players in the summer, we've come out of it quite well IMO.

Erm. Sorry, but WDLLDDWDDLWLLDDLL is our form since getting shafted by Birmingham in the cup final (which was embarassing enough).

So, out of 17 games and (in theory, because of cup games) and a potential 51 points, we managed 16 points.

That, my friend, is fucking shite.

[Power n Glory]

Erm. Sorry, but WDLLDDWDDLWLLDDLL is our form since getting shafted by Birmingham in the cup final (which was embarassing enough).

So, out of 17 games and (in theory, because of cup games) and a potential 51 points, we managed 16 points.

That, my friend, is fucking shite.

That really is an awful record.

[selassie]

That really is an awful record.

Yep, he'd be facing the sack pretty much everywhere else, well at least at a top club anyway.

[Joker]

That record really is pathetic.

[Letters]

Erm. Sorry, but WDLLDDWDDLWLLDDLL is our form since getting shafted by Birmingham in the cup final (which was embarassing enough).

So, out of 17 games and (in theory, because of cup games) and a potential 51 points, we managed 16 points.

That, my friend, is fucking shite.

Almost as bad as LLLLDDLDWLLWDLDWWDLWLDDDL


...that was thoroughly enjoyable though.

:whistle:

[LDG]

I enjoyed that season. It was the best.

[Master Splinter]

Almost as bad as LLLLDDLDWLLWDLDWWDLWLDDDL




Was that 1892/1893?

Good days tbf.

[dazthegooner]

As much at the 8-2 result hurt might have been a blessing in disguise who know if we would have made the signings we did if we hadn't...

[Niall_Quinn]

As much at the 8-2 result hurt might have been a blessing in disguise who know if we would have made the signings we did if we hadn't...

Yeah, we might not have got Benayoun on loan had it not been for that result.

[Power n Glory]

As much at the 8-2 result hurt might have been a blessing in disguise who know if we would have made the signings we did if we hadn't...

Just goes to show how stubborn the manager is. It shouldn't take all that and I'm not even sure if Wenger even gave his approval for the players we signed. It really is worrying but hopefully, the worst is over and we won't sink to new depths.

[Edinburgh Gooner]

Yeah, we might not have got Benayoun on loan had it not been for that result.

Maybe Bastien was all ready to sign on the dotted line, but skipped the country at the full time whistle at OT.

[Cripps_orig]

THERE was a scene in the aftermath at Ewood Park that would have struck fear into even Arsene Wenger's most ardent admirers.

A sight far more worrying than watching his Arsenal side ship four goals to Blackburn.

It was the demeanour of the man himself — and it was alarming. His 6ft 4in frame was stooped, his head bowed, his eyes had lost all sparkle.

He didn't just look a beaten man — he looked beaten up.

It's a sad moment that comes to all of us in life, a time when we know our best days are gone.

But that awful dawning of realisation is never more painful than to a sportsman who once bathed in glory.

You can become your own worst enemy with that stubborn refusal to accept the inevitable.

As Wenger stood in that Blackburn corridor on Saturday afternoon he appeared to be a man in need of a good friend and good guidance.

As someone who's known the Frenchman since he first arrived at Arsenal in 1996 it was sobering.

There are few, if any, better, more honourable men in the game. Few who have been more successful. But he is in danger of becoming a figure of fun.

He tries to exert calm and control, tries to push the positives. And you want to believe him — but you can't.

Maybe he doesn't believe it himself these days. For every upbeat phrase, he qualifies it in the next breath.

He kicked off saying: "There were a lot of positives from this game. We dominated, we created chances away from home and that's not easy."

All true. Arsenal scored three goals, created numerous openings, and should have had a penalty.

But the negatives — conceding four to Blackburn including two own goals and defending like novices — far outweigh them and Wenger accepted as much.

He added: "You cannot say you are not worried when you see the performance we put in. It's not defensively solid enough. We didn't have many weak moments but every time we had one, we paid for it.

"We also scored two own goals and that is unusual."

Again all true — but what evidence is there that it's going to change? "It is important that we get our confidence back quickly."

Yes but how?

"We must focus on our next game, win our next game."

I'm sorry but beating Shrewsbury in the Carling Cup won't fool anyone.

Wenger needs some big wins — and quick — for this is a real crisis. A narrow 1-0 win over Swansea and a goalless draw at Newcastle have been dwarfed by defeats to Manchester United, Liverpool and now Blackburn.

It's Arsenal's worst start for 58 years and results yesterday could have plunged the Gunners into the bottom three.

Wenger admitted: "It's just not good enough and, of course, we are very frustrated. The spirit in the team is willing but if you look at the number of goals we have conceded it is just not good enough. I believe the group will take off but it is important we can get results."

That will be the clincher and Wenger knows his future is being openly debated.

"Speculation is part of modern life, there is nothing I can do about that. My future is focused on giving the best for the club."

The accusation, though, is he wasn't focused enough during the summer — being beaten to key signings like Phil Jones, Juan Mata and Romelu Lukaku.

Another criticism is that he unnecessarily prolonged the Cesc Fabregas and Samir Nasri sagas and was too slow and too conservative in replacing them. And that he stubbornly refused to bring in some wise, old heads — like maybe Brad Friedel, Scott Parker, Jonathan Woodgate, Peter Crouch — to help nurture this latest crop of Arsenal youngsters.

Maybe his hands were tied. Maybe there was no money to buy, or more likely a refusal to pay the salaries that go with high-profile arrivals.

So maybe it's American billionaire Stanley Kroenke and his sidekick Ivan Gazidis who are really the guilty men.

For the frustrating thing about Arsenal is that they say one thing and yet do another.

But at this rate it will be the greatest talent, the most valuable asset of Arsenal Football Club, who turns out to be the unfortunate fall-guy.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/3821627/Rob-Beasley-Ive-never-seen-Arsene-Wenger-look-so-broken.html

Too late

[Power n Glory]

They can cut the bullshit. I've got no sympathy for the guy. He'a arrogant an embarrassed because he's been giving it large and now being made to look a fool.

That 'patience is a sign of intellgence' jab won't be forgotten and I've got no time for someone in his position that wants to wallow in self pity. Grow a pair of balls and start clipping te eat of so of these players before it's too late. Before he loses all respect from his players and they won't even respond to a good dressing down. No leader should be made to look so weak and pathetic in public and this sympathy appeal won't help us. If he wants to wallow in self pity, let him do it on someone else's watch. I don't want to hear any more shit from him about 'suffering'. He still has a job to do and if he can't do it, retire and call it quits.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

They can cut the bullshit. I've got no sympathy for the guy. He'a arrogant an embarrassed because he's been giving it large and now being made to look a fool.

That 'patience is a sign of intellgence' jab won't be forgotten and I've got no time for someone in his position that wants to wallow in self pity. Grow a pair of balls and start clipping te eat of so of these players before it's too late. Before he loses all respect from his players and they won't even respond to a good dressing down. No leader should be made to look so weak and pathetic in public and this sympathy appeal won't help us. If he wants to wallow in self pity, let him do it on someone else's watch. I don't want to hear any more shit from him about 'suffering'. He still has a job to do and if he can't do it, retire and call it quits.

Fucking Spot on the man gets 6 million a year like you said if he can no longer do the job time to move on and let someone else earn that money tbh. No symapthy from me either. Neither do i have for the players tbh.

[Niall_Quinn]

I feel sorry for the board. They sometimes get a minuscule amount of stick and considering all they've done for themselves it's not really fair they should have to put up with the odd criticism. I think we should continue to overlook them and focus all the blame for our current situation on Wenger.

[gunnerrrrr]

I feel sorry for the board. They sometimes get a minuscule amount of stick and considering all they've done for themselves it's not really fair they should have to put up with the odd criticism. I think we should continue to overlook them and focus all the blame for our current situation on Wenger.

and to add we must remember according to Jubba the Hut ops sorry i meant Peter Hill-Wood we are silly nobodies

[Joker]

I don't feel sorry for Wenger one bit. He's brought all this upon himself by being incredibly stubborn and arrogant, believing that his philosophy would eventually succeed, and that we didn't need to sign established top quality players to reach the next level. Now he's been found out, as his youth project has failed and he was forced into panic signings on the last day of the transfer window. Now he's trying to spin it, claiming he was always in control and that we're still in a good position to do well in the league. I'm sorry, but I've had enough of *******'s bullshit, he's lost the plot and has no idea how to halt the decline that is taking place at this club. All he can do is complain about financial doping, long throws, etc, but he won't accept responsibility for any of this. He assembled this shit squad, and yet all our problems are external in his opinion.

I won't also forget him complaining about the 50% tax rate, a rate that most fans won't be paying or ever likely to pay. That showed to me his priorities and why the board love him so much. Effectively, he's one of them.

[Ollie the Optimist]

i do feel sorry for Arsene, he is our greatest manager ever yet a lot of people would rather he never came here judging by the way people talk about him these days (not just on here btw) yes he is a flawed genius right now and does need to go i think but the way the media are talking about him, all lining up to have a go for anything is just wrong, he changed english football for the better. yes he says the wrong things and i am pissed off at him for the state of the team, but i do feel sorry for him because of what he has done for us to the way he is now.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Given the outlay on players since Wenger joined, there is very little chance we'd have enjoyed anything like the success this team experienced in the first half of his tenure. If the level of investment in the squad remains at current levels (xfer window profits), then it doesn't matter who the Manager is, we aint having a sniff of success.