"Currants Bw..."

[Letters]

It looks like it’s heading that way. Freedom of speech and freedom to do as you please as long as it’s secular.

People are still free to worship in whatever religion they like, I don't see that changing any time soon or the church going "underground".
I guess the problem is as we become a more mixed society with differing belief systems how do you create laws which give "freedom" to everyone given that those systems conflict?
I mean, Christians have certain views which is why bumming used to be illegal. But I'm not sure it's the state's job to legislate about what people do with their genitals in the privacy of their own house.
Well, unless what they do with them is not consensual.

Where it gets silly is where a church is on dodgy ground legally if they state that a staff member has to be a Christian because otherwise that's "discrimination".
Or nurses getting fired because they offer to pray with a patient. I mean, it depends how that is done but surely the offer is benign enough if done sensitively and the person doesn't push it. Just say no if you're not interested.
Or Christian bakers getting sued (successfully) because they don't want to make a cake promoting gay marriage when they don't believe in it. Just use another baker FFS!

A bit of common sense is needed. I don't think it's a slippery slope where people will eventually have to meet in secret but evangelising is becoming more difficult.

All that said. If you fancy a trip to the Emirates this summer without having to watch Arsenal play...

https://justone.co.uk/

:d

Edit: Only £25 to sit in Club level. Bargain!

[Niall_Quinn]

All you've done in this discussion so far is declare yourself right and ignored my points and my simple, direct questions about your position.
So yes, I agree. I'll go and talk to the grown ups.

Grown ups? Of all people, I have no doubt you'll know how to behave in the presence of authority.


You have no problem with relinquishing your privacy, and everyone else's, to unknown third parties. Therefore, you are a moron. If you can find any fault in the statement then explain.

Your response:


All you've done in this discussion so far is declare yourself right and ignored my points and my simple, direct questions about your position.

Dishonest as ever. My position is very clear. I'm calling you a moron, assuming all your posts aren't jokes. It would take a moron not to understand my position. So you win. You haven't made any points. All you've done is grovel, pleading with your masters to keep you safe.

Read this again if you need further evidence.


Well, DNA testing helps solve a lot of crimes and when it came in it exhonorated quite a few innocent people, so there's nothing wrong with a DNA databases in and of themselves any more than there is finger print libraries IF they are used for the right reasons. It's not about what information they have on me so much as what they're using it for and what effect it has on my life.

There's quite a lot of CCTV around right now, your web activity and emails are monitored or logged at least - in an automated way, no-one is sitting there reading your emails or watching you on CCTV cameras.

This is already going on and what effect does it have on your life? Day to day, what difference does it make? What freedoms has it cost you? For me it mostly means I get targetted advertising which can be a bit spooky but is generally fairly benign. I don't feel anyone is sitting there watching me all the time and even if they are it doesn't affect what I can or can't do. If it starts to then that will be a problem. Will it? I'm not convinced. Orwell wrote 1984 in 1948, nearly 70 years ago and while yes, we are more surveilled now than ever I don't see it has had much if any effect on our day to day freedoms.

Naturally there's no comparison at all between the imposition of certain authoritarian methods on criminals, or those suspected of criminal activity, with those same methods being applied to the entire population, which is the key argument. So either you are smarter than you let on, but deeply dishonest. Or you are a moron. Having spoken to you so many times on these and related issues (which proves me to be a bit of a moron myself) it seems fairly clear you are a moron.

[Niall_Quinn]

People are still free to worship in whatever religion they like, I don't see that changing any time soon or the church going "underground".
I guess the problem is as we become a more mixed society with differing belief systems how do you create laws which give "freedom" to everyone given that those systems conflict?
I mean, Christians have certain views which is why bumming used to be illegal. But I'm not sure it's the state's job to legislate about what people do with their genitals in the privacy of their own house.
Well, unless what they do with them is not consensual.

Where it gets silly is where a church is on dodgy ground legally if they state that a staff member has to be a Christian because otherwise that's "discrimination".
Or nurses getting fired because they offer to pray with a patient. I mean, it depends how that is done but surely the offer is benign enough if done sensitively and the person doesn't push it. Just say no if you're not interested.
Or Christian bakers getting sued (successfully) because they don't want to make a cake promoting gay marriage when they don't believe in it. Just use another baker FFS!

A bit of common sense is needed. I don't think it's a slippery slope where people will eventually have to meet in secret but evangelising is becoming more difficult.

All that said. If you fancy a trip to the Emirates this summer without having to watch Arsenal play...

https://justone.co.uk/

:d

Edit: Only £25 to sit in Club level. Bargain!

:haha: This is great!

[Letters]

Two more posts which say nothing and, once again, fail to address my very simple, direct questions. :)

[Niall_Quinn]

Two more posts which say nothing and, once again, fail to address my very simple, direct questions. :)

Copy. Paste.

[Letters]

Brian Cant :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40335213

[LDG]

Brian Cant :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40335213

He definitely can't now

[Letters]

:ilt:

Not sure he could for a while tbh.

[LDG]

Lolz

Stupid cunt women in my office opening he windows to let the hot air in, and the air conditioned air out.

RETARDS :angry:

[Letters]

I was wondering to myself how much it would cost to get air-con at him.
Probably quite a lot.

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2017/06/20/identifying-someones-level-of-cuntishness-now-possible-by-how-reasonable-they-make-piers-morgan-look/

:lol:

[LDG]

I was wondering to myself how much it would cost to get air-con at him.
Probably quite a lot.

Probs.

I'm not too bothered at home, as you only get this kind of heat a couple of weeks a year.

I really should buy a couple of fans though. I keep meaning to, and only remember when I'm stuck to the bed with sweat.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I was wondering to myself how much it would cost to get air-con at him.
Probably quite a lot.

Have you been to New Zealand recently?

[Letters]

Oh, I see what you did there. Took me a while.

[Marc Overmars]

I've been in Madrid this week. 38 fucking degrees. :sick:

[Letters]

Yeah, screw that. As discussed it was 45 in Dubai and you really can't go outside for any length of time.
Opposite my hotel they were putting up a building and a load of guys were working on it, doing manual labour in that heat.
Worker's rights isn't really their speciality.

[Thierrymon]

I've been in Madrid this week. 38 fucking degrees. :sick:

Just a normal summer over here. I fucking hate summer.

[Letters]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/22/french-fitness-blogger-dies-after-whipped-cream-dispenser-exploded-rebecca-burger

Ironing :)

[GP]

Are there a lot of first-person singular objective pronouns, or is it just me?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yeah, screw that. As discussed it was 45 in Dubai and you really can't go outside for any length of time.
Opposite my hotel they were putting up a building and a load of guys were working on it, doing manual labour in that heat.
Worker's rights isn't really their speciality.

Better than Qatar I imagine

[Letters]

Are there a lot of first-person singular objective pronouns, or is it just me?

Wow...

[WMUG]

Are there a lot of first-person singular objective pronouns, or is it just me?

Myself is used sometimes. By twats, admittedly, but used.

[Niall_Quinn]

Myself is used sometimes. By twats, admittedly, but used.

I find myself to be twattish too.

[Letters]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40432946?SThisFB

Goodbye, Mr Bond...

:(

:rose:

[GP]

Gah! Don't do that!

I thought for a minute you were saying Roger Moore had died.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I was hoping for Sean Connery

[Letters]

Herp and indeed Derp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40438207

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Herp and indeed Derp

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40438207


https://youtu.be/97DGOhiFq5Q

Some people believe anything they see on television

[Letters]

This really isn't rocket salad. Literally all you have to do is try and shoot through the book, or a similar book, first. If the bullet goes through and there is now a hole in the wall then probably not the best idea to repeat the trick replacing the book with your chest.

Morans :doh:

[Xhaka Can’t]

That would mean having to buy two books and two bullets you moran.

[GP]

I've never even met anyone who owned two books.

[Niall_Quinn]

That would mean having to buy two books and two bullets you moran.

Full Metal Jacket would be the title I'd go for. I suspect the one copy would do for both shots.

[Letters]

https://comewheatmay.com/

:d

[Niall_Quinn]

How's the ongoing investigation into the repeated 500 server errors going? Will it be concluded this century?

[Letters]

How's the ongoing investigation into the repeated 500 server errors going? Will it be concluded this century?

Oh that. Jofnn is on it, he's moving the site to a new server which hopefully will give us lots of different errors.
He's recently been on holiday, rather selfishly if you ask me, which has delayed things somewhat.

[Niall_Quinn]

Oh that. Jofnn is on it, he's moving the site to a new server which hopefully will give us lots of different errors.
He's recently been on holiday, rather selfishly if you ask me, which has delayed things somewhat.

Would you say, all in all, he's a reliable sort?

[Letters]

Tbh, we probably should have stayed with Invision. Having our site gives us certain freedoms in terms of what we can post and VBulliten is overall a more powerful engine which gives us more scope for doing things with this place but as we're obviously never going to it probably wasn't really worth moving.
Seemed like a good idea at the time.
Hopefully the new server will be more stable.

[Niall_Quinn]

How much do you pay for the server, if you don't mind me asking. And is it a shared or dedicated resource? I ask because it's barely more expensive than shared hosting to get a VPS these days. A $20 DigitalOcean droplet in the London data centre should be more than enough to run this forum stably and reliably. Euro based Scaleway does even cheaper prices.

[Letters]

Jof pays for it so I don't know, but he does run other things on it other than GW.
I did suggest Azure a while back (having been somewhat brainwashed by Microsoft about it) but he didn't think that would be cost-effective.

[Jofnn]

The sites I host have been running on a dedicated server that was significantly bigger than required to ensure breathability for all sites on there (in essence, not paying for a dedicated to replicate a shared environment). Unfortunately, there have been a number of issues with that server, resulting in a lot of switched hardware and updates. The server unfortunately also had numerous service failures per day, resulting in a number of outages or unexpected errors... As such, it makes it quite difficult to understand which errors are site-specific (I.e. GW or VBulletin related) and which are being driven by server instability.

As part of slimming my own business and cost base down, I have now moved over to new flexible VM's that will grow/shrink as I need it to. This also means, in the event of another one of these stints of issues, I can easily spin up a replacement server within hours and avoid the usual DNS replication issues.

Re: the question of whether I'm reliable... I should think so, given that I dedicate a lot of my own time (above my normal hosting agreements) to keep this forum up and running. I have a lot of experience in managing and developing VB forums and hosting - and have been working tirelessly (even while on holiday - trying to sort a server out in Malta while at a wedding) to get this server sorted.

[Letters]

Boris :bow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40477136

[GP]

Johnson is a cunt.

[GP]

Boris :bow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40477136

There was a vote in HoC last week to remove the cap on public sector pay. Boris Johnson voted against it.

[Letters]

There was a vote in HoC last week to remove the cap on public sector pay. Boris Johnson voted against it.

:lol: Not surprising.

[Letters]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40480386

"An eight-month old Canadian baby has been issued a health card without a gender marker, in what could be the first case in the world.
Parent Kori Doty - a non-binary transgender person who identifies as neither male nor female - aims to allow the child to discover their own gender."


Oh piss off...

[Marc Overmars]

All that's going to do is confuse the poor kid.

Fucking freaks.

[Globalgunner]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40480386

"An eight-month old Canadian baby has been issued a health card without a gender marker, in what could be the first case in the world.
Parent Kori Doty - a non-binary transgender person who identifies as neither male nor female - aims to allow the child to discover their own gender."


Oh piss off...

I realise that babies junk is small but are they really saying they looked very hard and couldnt tell if it was a toker or a slit. Canadians need better doctors.

Im more inclined to believe that the parents did this. Some people are just deranged. A vegan couple recently refused to give their child a proper diet and the baby died of malnutrition. They should be in jail and not free to try and kill another baby.

[Letters]

I'm sure the boy or girl's gender is perfectly clear from their anatomy, but the "parent" wants to "the child to discover their own gender."

What kind of bullshit gibberish is that?! :doh:


"They fuck you up, your mum and dad..."

[GP]

You're confusing sex, which is biological, with gender, which is a social construct.

There are at least 63 genders, including Otherkin.

[Letters]

Had to Google "Otherkin". Sheesh...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I identify as an "attack helicopter"

I was more than ok with queers being allowed to marry, given the institution of marriage certainly predates all of the main religions, but if it's bringing this shit along by its coat tails I'd repeal the law and tell the gays "blame the over privileged white kids who can't stand not being able to legitimately claim discrimination"

Watched on you tube about Australian girl who identifies as a wolf and has bought herself a furry tail. Does she frolic around with her fellow Wolves? No because they are wild animals and they will literally tear her to pieces.

This shit gives mental ilness a bad names, this is the end result of telling people they are all special and important when they most certainly are not.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I identify as special. Extra special.

[Globalgunner]

I blame Elton John.

[Jofnn]

I identify as special. Extra special.

Sorry mate... Asda have already beaten you to that one.

[GP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJsn9cB9D08

[Letters]

Tell you who gives kids a bad name. Jacob Rees-Mogg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40506109

[GP]

Rees-Mogg is an alien, I'm convinced of it.

[Letters]

He wasn't really on my radar till a couple of days ago but it seems he's become something of an unlikely social media star :blink:

[GP]

The right-wing, Little Englander types seem to love him.

Weird.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dove has released a line of packaging that is sympathetic to womens' body shapes. So if you're a babe, you can buy the slim and curvy bottle. If you're a fat pig there's a round bottle available. Plus a whole bunch of in-between shapes.

Finally, women who were dissatisfied with the shape of their shampoo bottles have been listened to.

Unfortunately, all the bottles are white. So Dove is getting crucified for racism.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/112/241/49e.gif

[Letters]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vatican-police-bust-gay-sex-party-cardinals-apartment-1628975

:lol:

[GP]

Catholics :haha:

[Niall_Quinn]

Re: the question of whether I'm reliable... I should think so, given that I dedicate a lot of my own time (above my normal hosting agreements) to keep this forum up and running. I have a lot of experience in managing and developing VB forums and hosting - and have been working tirelessly (even while on holiday - trying to sort a server out in Malta while at a wedding) to get this server sorted.

Kidding FFS! GW Banter. I know only too well what it's like to have to put up with characters like Letters.

Goes without saying we all appreciate the time and effort the relevant people contribute to keep GW limpingmarching along. At least it should go without saying, but now I've had to say it :doh:

[Letters]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40516754

Grotbags :rose:

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40516754

Grotbags :rose:

Finally.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Finally.

She wasn't a real witch you know?

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2017/07/06/love-island-fans-urged-to-give-actual-porn-a-try/

The last two paragraphs :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

She wasn't a real witch you know?

Nutter :sulk:

[Marc Overmars]

My first week of married life is almost up.

Everything is the same, except she now owns half of everything. FFS. What's the point?

[Letters]

Wait...you didn't invite us? :angry:

Did you live together before you were married? If so then I guess it's not as different.

And why aren't you on honeymoon?

[Marc Overmars]

Yeah we've been living together for years.

Honeymoon is in a few weeks, she's a teacher so summer holidays and all that.

[Letters]

Well, that's a blow...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40520125

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well, that's a blow...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40520125

Muzzas think oral sex is sinful therefore probably why they are breeding at a higher rate.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm married so none of this affects me.

[GP]

Can't beat a bit of ATM

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-39883344

Poor little bugger

[Letters]

:rose: :(

[Niall_Quinn]

WTF? Absolutely typical Utd fan.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3972232/britains-first-pregnant-man-gives-birth-to-baby-girl/

[Letters]

"man". "father" :lol:
Piss off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

[Marc Overmars]

Why are posts from the future bumping old threads? :blink:

[Jofnn]

Why are posts from the future bumping old threads? :blink:

Come again?

[Jofnn]

Come again?

Scrap that - I see what you mean.

All indexes etc. are being rebuilt at the moment on the forum to try to sort another issue. I'll keep an eye on it once the maintenance work has finished

[McNamara That Ghost...]

GW. :lol:

The future is shit, just like the past.

[Letters]

Come back Invision, all is forgiven :(

[GP]

We had loads of good posters back then too.

Cripps, ILT, Mandela, 4th, Mr B...

[Letters]

:lol: To be fair most of them came here but either got banned or died or both.

[GP]

:lol: To be fair most of them came here but either got banned or died or both.

Speaking of which, do you reckon Theologooner is still with us?

[Letters]

Ha. Well, I think he's older than Coney so I doubt it.

:unsure: I hope he is, quite liked him.

[GP]

https://i.redd.it/m3f3xww59v8z.jpg

:ilt:

[Niall_Quinn]

Must have taken them ages to work their various genders and other shit out. Certainly dedicated to the cause.

I'm not entirely sure we'd be compatible if they came to live in my house.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Mr. B forgetting his wallet. Tight religious judgemental pompous shite.

Other than that, he was a cunt.

[Letters]

He put the FUN into FUNDAMENTALIST, or maybe the MENTAL.

[Letters]

Oh for goodness sake...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40591750

[Marc Overmars]

Oh for goodness sake...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40591750

Good grief. Why all of a sudden are people afraid of offending these freaks? It's embarrassing.

[Niall_Quinn]

Good grief. Why all of a sudden are people afraid of offending these freaks? It's embarrassing.

We've gone beyond fake news now and into fake reality.

It's all about mind control and thoughtcrime. If the sad and sick authoritarians that half the population grovel to can convince us our very nature is their's to define and modify as they see fit, we become the ultimate slaves. They will tell us who we are, what we are, what we can say, what we can think. And if we are subservient enough, they'll label us as progressive. Otherwise we are racists, bigots, unworthy.

Does anyone actually know a person that is bothered by all this shit? Some sad fuck who consumes themselves with using the politically approved terminology at all times? These freakoids are one in a million but they have a huge voice, telling everyone else what is acceptable as measured by some non-scientific, bullshit standard.

Whole fucking world is going to hell, but at least we have gender neutral bathrooms. Priorities, priorities.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Oh for goodness sake...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-40591750

I find "Hello everyone" to be offensive to me.

No I don't.

Don't you fucking start.

[GP]

They should address all 76 genders or I'll see them in court.

[Power n Glory]

This liberal shit is going too far.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

This liberal shit is going too far.

Except it's not liberal at all, it's the total negation of a liberal attitude. It's a regressive authoritarian attitude

If someone wants to refer to themselves as gender neutral that's fine I don't give a shit. But what I hate is using the emotional blackmail of the oppressor claiming to be the opressed.

No one seriously thinks they are being undermined by the use of the term ladies and gentlemen, they are just pushing an agenda.

I tell you what TFL "Ladies and Gentlemen and uppity fuckfaces who can't stand the fact that they aren't actually a minority so they have to make shit up"

[Globalgunner]

If there is a fire alarm and the announcement says. "ladies and gentlemen, please proceed to exit 3". Some people may think the announcement does not concern them. Its a legal and liability issue.

[GP]

If there's a fire alarm going off and an announcement telling ladies and gentlemen to exit, and they think they are exempt, then quite frankly they deserve to die.

[GP]

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/article_small/public/thumbnails/image/2017/07/13/14/corbyn-barnier-1.jpg

OOOOHHHH JEREMY CORBYN!

:bow:

[Niall_Quinn]

Hands up if anyone here thinks Paul Joseph Watson is a mega dick.

And I don't mean he has a big cock.

[Niall_Quinn]

I vomit on instinct when I think of the left.

Now I find I'm also vomiting when I think of the right.

I always vomited when I thought of the fake centre.

What's a guy to do when he spends his whole life vomiting?

Cunts.

All of them

I feel violent and I also feel violence isn't wrong. Seems to me it is deserved, and natural.

[Niall_Quinn]

I just want to be. Free of you all.

Could somebody please explain - where's the crime in that?

[Niall_Quinn]

You can be whatever you want to be.

But just leave me alone.

Deal?

[Niall_Quinn]

If yes, then stop voting.

FFS!

[Letters]

Drunk NQ :bow:

[Letters]

Also, had this email to the Goonersweb info address. Worth a try?

"Hi,
Please excuse my direct approach.
I have 15 years' experience in sales & negotiation.
I am assuming that you have leads coming in, or you have bought leads...and simply not getting the conversions that you require to be profitable as a business.
If you do nothing about this, where does that leave you?
On the flip-side, let me try to work your leads for you and... if I increase your conversions, what does that mean for your business and your lifestyle?
I can work on a high-commission basis.
As a business you are reliant on sales. It is my job to move each lead closer to that outcome.
I can be bullish or consultative depending on the product or service I am selling.
Initially, I can offer 100 - 125 calls for £148.
I urge you to try me.
Some quick answers for you to questions you have in your mind:
I am British, born & bred, with a London accent.
Pronunciation of words and grammar is very good.
I will make the calls remotely so you do not need to free up any office space for me or set me up on a computer etc
Command of the English spoken and written language is very good.
I am emailing from a marketing company to save me time and limit my conversations with interested parties.
Why am I not in a high-flying full-time sales job right now, if I am as good as I say I am? I enjoy sales. I want to build regular contracts with select few companies so I have freedom of managing my own diary, get paid for my efforts and get rewarded for my results.

If you are interested, when can we speak further?

Kind Regards
Jordan"

[Letters]

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/man-caught-defecating-railway-station-13313220

:lol:

[Letters]

The BBC's autumn line-up:

Shirley Holmes.
Robyn Hood.
Postman Pat(ricia)

[Letters]

It's all a storm in a B-Cup

:rimshot:

[Niall_Quinn]

The BBC's autumn line-up:

Shirley Holmes.
Robyn Hood.
Postman Pat(ricia)

"Postman Pat and his lesbian cat..."

[Letters]

"Postman Pat and his lesbian cat..."

And Jess is actually a person but she, sorry "they", happen to identify as a non-binary cat.

[GP]

"Otherkin"

Check your privilege, shitlord.

[Letters]

Schrodinger's cat identifies as both alive and dead :sulk:

[GP]

http://i.imgur.com/YLToLlo.png

:ilt:

[Niall_Quinn]

And Jess is actually a person but she, sorry "they", happen to identify as a non-binary cat.

Although, to be fair, "back and white cat", was quite progressive for the time. And they didn't specifically mention the gender, Jess could easily be a girl's or a poofter's name.

So Postman Pat :bow:

Leading the way, even though at the time we probably all mistook it as a children's day time TV program rather than the fierce social justice vehicle it was clearly designed to be.

[Letters]

http://i.imgur.com/YLToLlo.png

:ilt:

And that is the bullshit that this all panders to.

[Niall_Quinn]

And that is the bullshit that this all panders to.

Racist :sulk:

[Letters]

A woman Dr Who, now a woman on our bank notes :sulk:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40641382

Political madness gone correct, I tells you!

[Niall_Quinn]

A woman Dr Who, now a woman on our bank notes :sulk:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40641382

Political madness gone correct, I tells you!

That's way too big to be practical.

[Letters]

So's your mum.


:cool:

[Niall_Quinn]

So's your mum.


:cool:

Grow up FFS!

And anyway, so's your face.

[Letters]

Meanie :(

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You pair of cunts

[Niall_Quinn]

You pair of cunts

What of it?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

What of it?

Why would you think there was anything else to it

[Niall_Quinn]

A guess.

[Letters]

You pair of cunts

Isn't that what the new Dr Who has?

[Letters]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40653383

Chris Evans! :lol:
Worth every penny #topgear

[Niall_Quinn]

Gender and diversity are the major issues here. Old ideas like hiring the best person for the job need to be kicked into the past where they belong.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think in fairness this isn't about token diversity

It's about comparative wage for comparative work

Asking why are there not more women or blacks in an industry has very little truck with me. As you say best person for the job not postive discrimination is the fair thing.

Why are they getting less money for doing the same job is not an unreasonable question

Why are Victoria Derbyshire and Laura Keunsberg getting paid less than George Aligaih when they arguably have to do more work?.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think in fairness this isn't about token diversity

It's about comparative wage for comparative work

Asking why are there not more women or blacks in an industry has very little truck with me. As you say best person for the job not postive discrimination is the fair thing.

Why are they getting less money for doing the same job is not an unreasonable question

Why are Victoria Derbyshire and Laura Keunsberg getting paid less than George Aligaih when they arguably have to do more work?.

They shouldn't get less money. The job should carry the same pay regardless of who is doing it. But if you listen to that BBC knob, the real problem is laid out under his nose and his response is, yeah, more women, more blacks.

Mind you, they have much bigger problems at the BBC if they think that shit list of non-talent is worth blowing OUR money on.

[GP]

Just get in a black woman and get two birds stoned at once.

[Letters]

She'd better be a lesbian :sulk:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

She'd better be a lesbian :sulk:

Why? So that way you'll be able to justify the fact that she won't sleep with you?

[Letters]

<_<




Yes :(

[Letters]

Well, f*ck you very much, government :sulk:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40658774

[GP]

Don't worry about it.

You'll be dead by then.

[Letters]

Yeah. So the joke's on them! :cool:

[Letters]

Ed Byrne in yesterday's Metro, in response to the question "Will spoiling kids have a negative effect on them?"
"Probably. If you do hand everything to your kids whenever they want it, will they grow up completely maladjusted? Will they throw tantrums their whole life, even as adults, when they don't get their own way? And what will that prepare them for, other than being president of the United States?"

:lol:

[Letters]

Another great gone :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-40687618

:rose:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Another great gone :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-40687618

:rose:

Ha that girl has lost her income stream

It's either mediocrity or adult films unless she manages to train another dancing Dog

[Letters]

Adult films ftw

[Globalgunner]

I hear they are proposing people be allowed to choose their own gender now without doctors input. Ha ha!
Let me volunteer now that NQ will become a troglodyte and Letters a miniature sperm whale.

[Niall_Quinn]

I hear they are proposing people be allowed to choose their own gender now without doctors input. Ha ha!
Let me volunteer now that NQ will become a troglodyte and Letters a miniature sperm whale.

I'm going to be offbeat and select male as my gender. Not just because of science and biology and reality and shit like that, but because I'm a contrarian.

My opinion - this transgender lot are a bunch of sick individuals who need help. Or extermination. Either's just as good.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I identify as a one legged black lesbian with learning difficulties.

[Niall_Quinn]

Seriously though, there is a pressing aspect to this otherwise nonsense. Google transhumanism and take a look at how far these crazy fucks have got and are prepared to go.

I'm a libertarian and I believe people can believe whatever the hell they want, even if it flies directly in the face of reality. After all, reality is just a collation of limited data from limited senses. But the trouble with some people is they then insist everyone else consumes their beliefs, and that's where all the problems start and have ever started. Take religion, for example. Or government. Or money. Same things. Same regressive intents. Same negative outcomes that, non-coincidentally, conflict in the most direct way for they very liberal minds that endorse the principles of regression wholeheartedly, in the name of progress.

There is only one solution to this that does not involve remarkable levels of violence. Live and let live. But, you fucking liberals, you have to actually let "diverse" and "minority" people live. Do you understand that bit?

[Niall_Quinn]

I identify as a one legged black lesbian with learning difficulties.

You're after a job at the BBC?

[GP]

You're after a job at the BBC?

Shadow Home Secretary.

[Globalgunner]

My overriding fear is the damage they are doing to our kids. imagine 7 year olds in primary school. "Paul, you feel like being a girl today?. Thats fine use the other toilet if you wish, but do lift up the seat while youre there"....Angela are you a boy today or a girl...okay go and play football with the boys. And boys no bottom pinching while youre playing with her/him......Okay." Idiots..its as if they watched the last Mad Max film and said......Yeah! thats a future I could live with.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't see the point of confusing kids by teaching them about something that is so infrequent that statistically the chance of meeting someone with gender dysphoria is just statistically insignificant.

What next ? If a girl likes football she's secretly a boy?.

Here's a novel fucking idea let kids be kids.

[Letters]

You people wanted a female Dr Who. This is what this nonsense leads to :sulk:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You people wanted a female Dr Who. This is what this nonsense leads to :sulk:

Ha slippery slope argument

Although on the other hand.....

There was a documentary on channel 4 asking is love racist because apparently having a preference over ethnicity and skin colour makes you a massive bigot.

Then you have men taking oestrogen pills and growing their hair long and saying that men are prejudiced if they prefer you know actual women....actual women without penises.

Just goes to show authoritarianism can swing both ways

[Letters]

Paint... :rose:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40705466

[Letters]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40708343

They're this decade's McCanns IMO.

[GP]

That poor kid has been forced to needlessly suffer for months.

I hope he can find peace soon.

[Globalgunner]

Next thing they will be on a reality show. "Life after Charlie"...You heard it here first

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Absolute Circus from start to finish. I have some sympathy for the parents, you don't want to accept that your baby son is going to die but they managed to get themselves represented and supported by all the worst types of people.

I'm sorry what?, you believe in the sanctity of life and yet you threaten to kill people?.

[Letters]

I had sympathy with them up to a point but it gets to the point where, as sad as this all is, you have to stop lying about his quality of life and whipping up publicity.
How many other kids, who have a realistic change of improvement or cure, are still on waiting lists because of the resources spent on this kid who has none.
I got into an argument with someone on FB about this who seemed to genuinely believe that the parents knew better how their son was doing than the doctors.
I'm sure the parents desperately want him to get better but the fact is they're using emotion and wishful thinking against the doctor's repeated tests and observations.
You'd think from some idiots that GOSH staff want him to die. Of course they don't. No-one wants that. But the reality is, he's going to.
Give it up and let the poor little sod have some peace and dignity. There's no quality of life there and never will be.

[GP]

Apparently the courts requested that an MRI be performed but the parents refused.

I have no sympathy for them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I had sympathy with them up to a point but it gets to the point where, as sad as this all is, you have to stop lying about his quality of life and whipping up publicity.
How many other kids, who have a realistic change of improvement or cure, are still on waiting lists because of the resources spent on this kid who has none.
I got into an argument with someone on FB about this who seemed to genuinely believe that the parents knew better how their son was doing than the doctors.
I'm sure the parents desperately want him to get better but the fact is they're using emotion and wishful thinking against the doctor's repeated tests and observations.
You'd think from some idiots that GOSH staff want him to die. Of course they don't. No-one wants that. But the reality is, he's going to.
Give it up and let the poor little sod have some peace and dignity. There's no quality of life there and never will be.

I have nothing to add to that, I agree with you completely

[Globalgunner]

It became more about them than what was in the best interests of the child. People are fighting the law for the right to die, they instead want the right to keep a child alive who is technically dead already. Take him off the artificial gubbins and he would be dead in an hour. The hospital are the only ones who cared about whats best for the kid, the parents just wanted to keep the circus going. Are they seriously going to say if an ammniotic fluid test at 2 months had told them the foetus prognosis, that they would have still carried him to term?. Maybe in some future a cure can be found. Now however i think what has been decided is the best for the child.

Funniest thing is how rabid loonies creep out at every single cause. Banners, pitchforks, T-shirts and all.

[Niall_Quinn]

Absolute Circus from start to finish. I have some sympathy for the parents, you don't want to accept that your baby son is going to die but they managed to get themselves represented and supported by all the worst types of people.

I'm sorry what?, you believe in the sanctity of life and yet you threaten to kill people?.

That's about it. Once the media and the bleeding heart busybodies (who were probably also out on the street cheering for "our boys" who slaughtered, how many kids?) got a bite, dignity had no chance.

[Letters]

https://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/E836/production/_97064495_3a572418-e0fc-44fb-b677-073044bebfe4.jpg

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/552E/production/_97060812_mediaitem97062041.jpg

The hell is wrong with these people?
And, meanwhile, another thousand perfectly healthy kids die from malnutrition or Civil War and we collectively shrug, or ignore it.

World has gone completely mental.

[Letters]

Outside court, Charlie's Army campaigners reacted angrily and chanted, "shame on you judge" and "shame on GOSH".
Falling to the ground, one female supporter said: "He had a chance and you took it away."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40708343

No. No he didn't you stupid bint. Why are people so utterly unable to think rationally? :blink:

[Letters]

Just realised this means we've now got the funeral to come.
Wonder if it will be on TV?
Maybe we'll get a day off.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Just realised this means we've now got the funeral to come.
Wonder if it will be on TV?
Maybe we'll get a day off.

Maybe Elton John and Robbie Williams will collaborate on a song

Pass the Nembutal and the bottle of famous grouse please

[Power n Glory]

So the baby was normal when born but then it was discovered he had a rare condition? How are the parents supposed just accept that he is to die especially when being told there is a chance he can be treated and lead a normal life.

Am I missing something here?

[Xhaka Can’t]

I feel horrible for one person and it is the one person who has no say and has had his suffering prolonged by his parents who should have been putting their feelings before his welfare.

[GP]

So the baby was normal when born but then it was discovered he had a rare condition? How are the parents supposed just accept that he is to die especially when being told there is a chance he can be treated and lead a normal life.

Am I missing something here?

They were told by the medical professionals caring for him that his condition was terminal, there was 0% chance he could live a normal life.

Then an American snake oil salesman dangled a carrot in front of them and they believed him.

[Niall_Quinn]

So the baby was normal when born but then it was discovered he had a rare condition? How are the parents supposed just accept that he is to die especially when being told there is a chance he can be treated and lead a normal life.

Am I missing something here?

Yes. The whole emotional, clickbait hoopla that feeds the media and the suburban champions of easy causes. The child, the parents and the medical professionals involved are the stage props and plot elements. Soon the child will be dead and it will be time to play, Let's Judge the Parents! Plenty more clicks in this with proper planning. Gawkers at a car wreck. Isn't it just awful? Move over a bit, I'm trying to catch a glimpse through the smashed windshield. Nothing is real anymore once the media gets involved. That's why it's called fake news.

[Xhaka Can’t]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40705687

I wish they would all FOAD

[GP]

rip in peace

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-40705687

I wish they would all FOAD

BBC first with the latest, breaking PC news. As usual. What would we do without them, apart from spending the money they steal from us?

[Niall_Quinn]

However, there is still good news to be found if you dig. Sometimes excellent, joyous news.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40711774

[Power n Glory]

They were told by the medical professionals caring for him that his condition was terminal, there was 0% chance he could live a normal life.

Then an American snake oil salesman dangled a carrot in front of them and they believed him.

Stranger things have happened.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/26/boys-miracle-recovery-from-rare-cancer-after-mum-gave-him-cannabis-6534160/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/629193/miracle-baby-Bella-Moore-Williams-back-from-dead-after-life-support-off-Cambridge

Plenty of these types of stories around with doctors giving patients a slim chance of recovery. They don't always get it right.

I don't have kids so can't really judge but given how skeptical I am when it comes to the health service and their resources, I don't know if I'd be so quick to accept their verdict.

[Letters]

I feel horrible for one person and it is the one person who has no say and has had his suffering prolonged by his parents who should have been putting their feelings before his welfare.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

Yes. The whole emotional, clickbait hoopla that feeds the media and the suburban champions of easy causes. The child, the parents and the medical professionals involved are the stage props and plot elements. Soon the child will be dead and it will be time to play, Let's Judge the Parents! Plenty more clicks in this with proper planning. Gawkers at a car wreck. Isn't it just awful? Move over a bit, I'm trying to catch a glimpse through the smashed windshield. Nothing is real anymore once the media gets involved. That's why it's called fake news.

It turns into a circus once the press get involved.

[Letters]

Plenty of these types of stories around with doctors giving patients a slim chance of recovery. They don't always get it right.

I don't have kids so can't really judge but given how skeptical I am when it comes to the health service and their resources, I don't know if I'd be so quick to accept their verdict.
I'm not sure there are "plenty", statistically I imagine this sort of thing is very rare. But there are certainly some.
Doctors do make mistakes and I think it's perfectly reasonable that a parent would question a doctor when told that their baby has no hope of survival. The hope that the doctor is mistaken and the questioning of them is perfectly understandable.

But there's a massive middle ground between that and dragging this through multiple courts despite being told repeatedly by plenty of medical experts that there is no hope for this kid and whipping up a media storm making the whole thing a circus.
The doctors did brain scans months ago and found serious damage at a cellular level. The kid couldn't move, he can't breathe on his own can't eat, can't open his eyes for any sustained period. He probably can't see or hear.
Even the doctor in America agreed the treatment he was offering was experimental and would, at best alleviate some of the symptoms and would not reverse the brain damage which has already occurred.

There comes a point when enough is enough and that time was 3 months ago or more. The kid wasn't living, he was merely existing, kept "alive" by machines. I just pray he hasn't been in pain all this time.

It's a sad case and there are no winners, the parents have lost their son, the kid has lost his chance to die with dignity months ago and other kids have lost out because of the resources diverted to this case.
I only hope the money which the parents have raised for the "treatment" in America can now be put to a good cause.

And I hope the parents now get on with their lives, but I suspect with wearying predictability there will be book deals and TV specials and the media circus will rumble on.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not sure there are "plenty", statistically I imagine this sort of thing is very rare. But there are certainly some.
Doctors do make mistakes and I think it's perfectly reasonable that a parent would question a doctor when told that their baby has no hope of survival. The hope that the doctor is mistaken and the questioning of them is perfectly understandable.

But there's a massive middle ground between that and dragging this through multiple courts despite being told repeatedly by plenty of medical experts that there is no hope for this kid and whipping up a media storm making the whole thing a circus.
The doctors did brain scans months ago and found serious damage at a cellular level. The kid couldn't move, he can't breathe on his own can't eat, can't open his eyes for any sustained period. He probably can't see or hear.
Even the doctor in America agreed the treatment he was offering was experimental and would, at best alleviate some of the symptoms and would not reverse the brain damage which has already occurred.

There comes a point when enough is enough and that time was 3 months ago or more. The kid wasn't living, he was merely existing, kept "alive" by machines. I just pray he hasn't been in pain all this time.

It's a sad case and there are no winners, the parents have lost their son, the kid has lost his chance to die with dignity months ago and other kids have lost out because of the resources diverted to this case.
I only hope the money which the parents have raised for the "treatment" in America can now be put to a good cause.

And I hope the parents now get on with their lives, but I suspect with wearying predictability there will be book deals and TV specials and the media circus will rumble on.

Again, I haven't got kids but if I did I'm not sure how I'd feel about letting then die especially when told there is a slim chance of survival.

Why even get involved and judge the parents? Is it even anyone's place to?

[Niall_Quinn]

Again, I haven't got kids but if I did I'm not sure how I'd feel about letting then die especially when told there is a slim chance of survival.

Why even get involved and judge the parents? Is it even anyone's place to?

Depends if you are talking about genuine human emotion or the synthetic stuff that's replacing it.

[Letters]

Again, I haven't got kids but if I did I'm not sure how I'd feel about letting then die especially when told there is a slim chance of survival.

Why even get involved and judge the parents? Is it even anyone's place to?
But that's the point, that's not what they were told. They were told the exact opposite months ago.
This only came to court because the parents refused to accept that. And yes, it must be horrible to be told that your baby is going to die. I can't even imagine how hard that is. But the more you read about these conditions and the tests they did on Charlie the more bleak it looks. And this experimental therapy has no proven record, is not a cure and even the doctor who offered it conceded it would not reverse the brain damage which has occurred.

The parents have put this in the public domain and courted publicity, I think that gives people the right thing comment. Honestly, I think they have acted appallingly. They've painted GOSH, who have been nothing but professional, as the bad guys. They've lied about his condition (maybe not deliberately, they may have been lying to themselves as much as anyone else) and they seem to be making this far more about them than what is best for their son who has suffered for months longer than he needed to. I just hope he hasn't been in pain.

[Power n Glory]

But that's the point, that's not what they were told. They were told the exact opposite months ago.
This only came to court because the parents refused to accept that. And yes, it must be horrible to be told that your baby is going to die. I can't even imagine how hard that is. But the more you read about these conditions and the tests they did on Charlie the more bleak it looks. And this experimental therapy has no proven record, is not a cure and even the doctor who offered it conceded it would not reverse the brain damage which has occurred.

The parents have put this in the public domain and courted publicity, I think that gives people the right thing comment. Honestly, I think they have acted appallingly. They've painted GOSH, who have been nothing but professional, as the bad guys. They've lied about his condition (maybe not deliberately, they may have been lying to themselves as much as anyone else) and they seem to be making this far more about them than what is best for their son who has suffered for months longer than he needed to. I just hope he hasn't been in pain.

Again, it's very easy to judge looking in from the outside. Heck, aren't you the same person that said something about your church people giving testimonies of miraculous events?

[Niall_Quinn]

I think most people know what it's like to have a sick and dying child. To my mind it's pretty easy to predict how any of us would behave with that emotional burden added to by a bunch of raving bureaucrats, the sensationalist and ever-lying media, the crowd of busybodies that always seems to congregate around these reality style moral entertainment pieces and the shitty courts. For me, it's starting to look like these parents haven't lived up to the standards we'd all undoubtedly set.

Anyway, we are all Charlie now. Again.

Reminds me of how devastated I was when that MP died. What was her name again? Awful. Tragic.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again, it's very easy to judge looking in from the outside. Heck, aren't you the same person that said something about your church people giving testimonies of miraculous events?

Regardless of the parents behaviour we can all I hope agree that this episode left a bitter taste in the mouth

The assumption made by people that these doctors were acting in anything other than the child's best interest was lamentable

Farage.....the man who tells us sovereignty can be ours if we only want it enough, was happy for the Americans to interdict in this case.

[Niall_Quinn]

Hasn't left any sort of taste in my mouth at all. In relative terms this private matter turned out for public spectacle is entirely irrelevant outside a small circle of concerned individuals. And fuck the quacks. Perhaps they do want to save their patients, but precious few know how to go about doing that if the ailment extends beyond a grazed knee. One of the most incompetent professions on the planet.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Hasn't left any sort of taste in my mouth at all. In relative terms this private matter turned out for public spectacle is entirely irrelevant outside a small circle of concerned individuals. And fuck the quacks. Perhaps they do want to save their patients, but precious few know how to go about doing that if the ailment extends beyond a grazed knee. One of the most incompetent professions on the planet.

What's your doctorate in again?

[Niall_Quinn]

What's your doctorate in again?

Life.

And, by the way, you don't need to be a football manager to know Wenger is a fuck up. For example.

99% of these heroes lap up Drug Pusher Weekly from big pharma as if it's the bible. Try questioning them. Watch the arrogance sweat off them and pool on the floor. And yet they kill as many patients as they cure. 99% of them will tell you chemotherapy is an effective treatment, for example. Prior to that, 99% of them told you smoking was good for you. And prior to that, 99% of them recommended a little radioactive poisoning to promote good health.

As I said, I don't think they deliberately set out to harm their victims. It's just they are one of the most mindless and indoctrinated group of technocrats on the planet. You can tell them literally anything and they'll believe it provided it originates from higher up their scared chain and not from some crackpot source like, say, nature.

Deify these quacks if you want. But have a look at the evidence and it might change your mind.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Life.

And, by the way, you don't need to be a football manager to know Wenger is a fuck up. For example.

99% of these heroes lap up Drug Pusher Weekly from big pharma as if it's the bible. Try questioning them. Watch the arrogance sweat off them and pool on the floor. And yet they kill as many patients as they cure. 99% of them will tell you chemotherapy is an effective treatment, for example. Prior to that, 99% of them told you smoking was good for you. And prior to that, 99% of them recommended a little radioactive poisoning to promote good health.

As I said, I don't think they deliberately set out to harm their victims. It's just they are one of the most mindless and indoctrinated group of technocrats on the planet. You can tell them literally anything and they'll believe it provided it originates from higher up their scared chain and not from some crackpot source like, say, nature.

Deify these quacks if you want. But have a look at the evidence and it might change your mind.

The difference is you don't go through almost ten years of intense studying to become a football manager

There is nothing to say you should be making Gods out of doctors some of them do indeed have a god complex, but then there is a layman making sweeping statements about specialist paediatricians

Saying you Believe them all to be quacks and suggesting people should always trust their own "expertise" over a qualified medical opinion is to be guilty of the same hubris you accuse them off.

And On the other hand the American guy who was advocating for the alternative therapy basically admitted he had neither examined the child or his medical notes.

[Niall_Quinn]

The difference is you don't go through almost ten years of intense studying to become a football manager

There is nothing to say you should be making Gods out of doctors some of them do indeed have a god complex, but then there is a layman making sweeping statements about specialist paediatricians

Saying you Believe them all to be quacks and suggesting people should always trust their own "expertise" over a qualified medical opinion is to be guilty of the same hubris you accuse them off.

And On the other hand the American guy who was advocating for the alternative therapy basically admitted he had neither examined the child or his medical notes.

I didn't say I ranked my medical expertise over theirs. That would be a ridiculous claim. I don't despise them as individuals, I despise their so-called profession. Or more accurately, I despise what their so-called profession has become. Just as you find offence in people criticising their intent, I find it deeply offensive to suggest these people are authoritative in all bar the most basic, mechanical aspects of human life and health. Indeed, they deliberately go out of their way to limit the scope of their knowledge. They remind me of a polished version of the Spanish Inquisition. Certainly nothing to be admired and their appalling record speaks for itself.

[Niall_Quinn]

McEnroe refusing to apologise for reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDPK8ds1D-o

[GP]

Cool rock formation.

https://i.imgur.com/CMMdGGX.jpg

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I didn't say I ranked my medical expertise over theirs. That would be a ridiculous claim. I don't despise them as individuals, I despise their so-called profession. Or more accurately, I despise what their so-called profession has become. Just as you find offence in people criticising their intent, I find it deeply offensive to suggest these people are authoritative in all bar the most basic, mechanical aspects of human life and health. Indeed, they deliberately go out of their way to limit the scope of their knowledge. They remind me of a polished version of the Spanish Inquisition. Certainly nothing to be admired and their appalling record speaks for itself.

I'm not really sure what you're even alluding to, to be honest

Maybe a specific example rather than talking in generalities ?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

McEnroe refusing to apologise for reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDPK8ds1D-o

I don't understand this at all. What are they even annoyed with him about?

I like Charlie Rose but he's being a massive Cuck here.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm not really sure what you're even alluding to, to be honest

Maybe a specific example rather than talking in generalities ?

I don't like doctors, in the main. I've encountered a very few decent ones who seem to give a shit and haven't been entirely brainwashed. The rest have been utter turds, some so obnoxious I'd have punched their lights out if I was a single guy. But leaving my personal experiences aside (and the experiences of the vast majority of people I've spoken to on such matters), this particular case is a specific example of the supreme arrogance and all too common incompetence of this profession.

Read this page:
http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

The incompetent (not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully) (in this instance) staff at GOSH were unable to provide any solution other than to terminate the life of the child. Interestingly, they have this right whereas citizens do not, but that's another matter and another case of the state and its agents behaving unlawfully. Okay, so they can't be expected to cure every disease or condition that comes their way. But, by their own admission, in this case they had no competency to deal with the problem, if we assume death is not the desired outcome.

The parents said thanks, we'll take the kid to the States where somebody claims they can help. We'll pay. So it's not a matter of cash, as is so often the case with our corporate, for profit, "healthcare" system. Whether this third party could help or not is irrelevant. The relevancy is in who gets to make the decision. Even when it comes to the life of a child and when the state can't preserve that life, the court here rules that the child is owned by the state. In an act of the deepest black comedy it declares the doctors, who have already admitted they can do fuck all (they are INCOMPETENT by their own admission), KNOW what's best for the child. How can they possibly know that, when they've already concluded there's no medical remedy and have therefore (you would think) removed themselves as a factor? So what are they deciding on? Personal family issues? The arrogant fucks. We can't help, so instead we'll kidnap your dying child. It's the most ridiculous assumption and yet they managed to bring their kangaroo case to the kangaroo court and win. Of course they did. What's really at stake here in a wider sense is who "owns" the child. This ruling leaves no uncertainty and the medical profession has assisted vigorously, under the unshakable belief it knows what is best - for anyone and everyone I assume. They read books for 10 years and now they get to explain to a family what dignity is? Can you imagine a more refined form of arrogance?

This is another in a long list of reasons why it is essential and urgent to get rid of government and its drones.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't understand this at all. What are they even annoyed with him about?

I like Charlie Rose but he's being a massive Cuck here.

The title says it. These twats were triggered. The facts, context, everything bar the trigger mechanism is ignored. It's a reality that women tennis players, even doped up steroid queens like the Williams freaks, are inferior to male tennis players - strictly in terms of the sport. These brainwashed slaves immediately conflate that to an outright and unfavourable comparison between males and females, across the board. This allows them to mount their high horse and preach to a guy simply stating facts. Not only preach, but demand apologies for the introduction of reality into their little fantasy worlds.

This is the norm now. Most people in the public eye are either genuinely this stupid or too afraid of stupid people to speak up. McEnroe isn't one of them. He'll be hated and despised by a large segment of society as a result. For a short period of time I guess, until they find a new book reader or unlicensed thinker they can descend upon.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't like doctors, in the main. I've encountered a very few decent ones who seem to give a shit and haven't been entirely brainwashed. The rest have been utter turds, some so obnoxious I'd have punched their lights out if I was a single guy. But leaving my personal experiences aside (and the experiences of the vast majority of people I've spoken to on such matters), this particular case is a specific example of the supreme arrogance and all too common incompetence of this profession.

Read this page:
http://www.gosh.nhs.uk/frequently-asked-questions-about-charlie-gard-court-case

The incompetent (not having or showing the necessary skills to do something successfully) (in this instance) staff at GOSH were unable to provide any solution other than to terminate the life of the child. Interestingly, they have this right whereas citizens do not, but that's another matter and another case of the state and its agents behaving unlawfully. Okay, so they can't be expected to cure every disease or condition that comes their way. But, by their own admission, in this case they had no competency to deal with the problem, if we assume death is not the desired outcome.

The parents said thanks, we'll take the kid to the States where somebody claims they can help. We'll pay. So it's not a matter of cash, as is so often the case with our corporate, for profit, "healthcare" system. Whether this third party could help or not is irrelevant. The relevancy is in who gets to make the decision. Even when it comes to the life of a child and when the state can't preserve that life, the court here rules that the child is owned by the state. In an act of the deepest black comedy it declares the doctors, who have already admitted they can do fuck all (they are INCOMPETENT by their own admission), KNOW what's best for the child. How can they possibly know that, when they've already concluded there's no medical remedy and have therefore (you would think) removed themselves as a factor? So what are they deciding on? Personal family issues? The arrogant fucks. We can't help, so instead we'll kidnap your dying child. It's the most ridiculous assumption and yet they managed to bring their kangaroo case to the kangaroo court and win. Of course they did. What's really at stake here in a wider sense is who "owns" the child. This ruling leaves no uncertainty and the medical profession has assisted vigorously, under the unshakable belief it knows what is best - for anyone and everyone I assume. They read books for 10 years and now they get to explain to a family what dignity is? Can you imagine a more refined form of arrogance?

This is another in a long list of reasons why it is essential and urgent to get rid of government and its drones.

I appreciate your utter commitment to the individual over the state but again nothing you've stated suggested the doctors were in anyway medically wrong to make the decision they did. Why did they deny the parents the right to take him to the states? Because they have a duty of care to their patient and it was abundantly clear he wouldn't have survived the journey let alone benefitted from the treatment which would not in fact have reversed any of the brain damage.

Equally if you've got Christian scientists who refuse their child medical treatment which could save its life because they prefer to put their faith in the power of prayer....is it fine for those individuals to make this decision?

[Letters]

This is absolutely not a matter of the GOSH staff's competence. This condition is not curable. There is no treatment. To say that the GOSH staff's inability to treat this child shows incompetence is to have no understanding of what that word means. If the kid has appendicitis and the doctors fail to treat it then yes, that's incompetent. That is a condition which is easily treatable. But that is not the case here. The issue is not whether THEY could help, the issue is whether ANYONE could help and it was fairly clear in this case that no-one could.

The American in question (who, by the way, has a financial interest in the treatment he offered) even conceded it would not reverse the extensive brain damage which had already occurred. The treatment has never even been tried on this variation of the condition.

In terms of who makes the decision in the case of a minor who is not able to make their own decision, that should be the parents but there has to be some process if the parents are making decisions which the doctors feel will harm their child. If the kid has appendicitis and the parents want to pray about it and hope it goes away then even as a Charlie Church I'd have to say that should be challenged. If the parents and doctors can't agree then that's where it has to get legal and someone has to arbitrate. What other process can you have? These cases are rare, usually it IS the parents who get to decide in consultation with the doctors. But you have to have some process if the parents and doctors are unable to agree and the doctors feel the parents are making decisions which will harm their child.

[GP]

I saw some people on a facebook group saying that GOSH had murdered the child.

How fucking stupid can people be?

[Power n Glory]

I appreciate your utter commitment to the individual over the state but again nothing you've stated suggested the doctors were in anyway medically wrong to make the decision they did. Why did they deny the parents the right to take him to the states? Because they have a duty of care to their patient and it was abundantly clear he wouldn't have survived the journey let alone benefitted from the treatment which would not in fact have reversed any of the brain damage.

Equally if you've got Christian scientists who refuse their child medical treatment which could save its life because they prefer to put their faith in the power of prayer....is it fine for those individuals to make this decision?

I get where NQ is coming from. Glance through the below stories. There are plenty of examples of parents having to question what they're originally told by doctors and take a chance. Not saying they don’t care but the ‘duty of care’ line can only stretch so far. We’re talking about an organisation that’s under staffed, underfunded and relying on limited resources. When that stretched I question how much pressure they are under to look for the quick solution.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9223408/Miracle-recovery-of-teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html


A teenager who was declared brain dead by four doctors has made a "miracle" recovery after his parents asked for another medical opinion, just moments before his life support machine could have been switched off.

http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/26/boys-miracle-recovery-from-rare-cancer-after-mum-gave-him-cannabis-6534160/


A 13-year-old boy who was one in only five people in the world with an extremely rare cancer that meant he had only two weeks left to live managed to make a miracle recovery – thanks to cannabis.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/baby-left-no-brain-activity-10865982


Baby left with 'no brain activity’ after falling in swimming pool smiles after parents find 'miracle' doctor online

Two-year-old Eden Carlson's family say doctors told them she would remain in a vegetative state after being starved of oxygen for two hours - unable to eat, talk or walk ever again

[Letters]

Again, it's very easy to judge looking in from the outside. Heck, aren't you the same person that said something about your church people giving testimonies of miraculous events?

I do believe in miraculous healings. Well, it's more than a vague belief, I know a couple of people quite well who have experienced them. But I also know that these things are not common. And the parents in this case weren't basing their hopes for Charlie on faith in such things, they simply thought they knew better than the doctors. They still do.

Now, doctors make mistakes, obviously. But when multiple medical experts who have years of training and experience (when you have none) keep telling you the same thing then it's time to stop telling them they're wrong. The parents have repeatedly lied about the kid's condition and even now they're saying that had GOSH not delayed treatment then their son could have recovered and had a normal life. That is NOT true. There is no cure or treatment for this condition. Even this "experimental" treatment has never even been tried on this variation of the kid's condition and the doctor who offered it conceded it would not reverse the extensive brain damage which had already occurred.

They are painting GOSH as the "bad guys". They say they've been fighting for Charlie, I just think they've been fighting for themselves, unable to accept the reality of what has happened. For once I don't blame the press for whipping up this circus, the parents have actively courted publicity, they didn't need to accept the interviews if they wanted this to be a private matter. It suited their agenda to court the publicity. And the result is GOSH staff being abused and threatened and protests accusing the GOSH of letting Charlie die when something could have been done (which it couldn't). And all the time poor Charlie lies there as this drags on and on, unable to see, unable to move, unable to breathe without being assisted. I just hope he hasn't been in pain.

It IS easy to sit here pontificating, I've never been in their situation and I hope I never have to be. But I do know other people who have been in similar situations and they have come to an agreement with the doctors to end life support, they haven't dragged it through the courts and made it a national story. So people saying "any parent would have done the same" are simply wrong.

I do feel sorry for the parents, they had a (seemingly) perfectly healthy baby boy and then all this happened. But they have refused to accept the reality of what happened and that has meant more suffering for Charlie, abuse of the GOSH staff and resources wasted on keeping Charlie alive artificially when those resources could have been better spent on kids who have a chance of recovery when he had none.

As I said before, there are no winners in all this, only losers. But maybe some good can come out of the money they raised.

[Letters]

I saw some people on a facebook group saying that GOSH had murdered the child.

How fucking stupid can people be?

Well, you've been on here a while, so...

[WMUG]

I do believe in miraculous healings. Well, it's more than a vague belief, I know a couple of people quite well who have experienced them.

I'll just leave this here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo

[Niall_Quinn]

I do believe in miraculous healings. Well, it's more than a vague belief, I know a couple of people quite well who have experienced them. But I also know that these things are not common. And the parents in this case weren't basing their hopes for Charlie on faith in such things, they simply thought they knew better than the doctors. They still do.

Now, doctors make mistakes, obviously. But when multiple medical experts who have years of training and experience (when you have none) keep telling you the same thing then it's time to stop telling them they're wrong. The parents have repeatedly lied about the kid's condition and even now they're saying that had GOSH not delayed treatment then their son could have recovered and had a normal life. That is NOT true. There is no cure or treatment for this condition. Even this "experimental" treatment has never even been tried on this variation of the kid's condition and the doctor who offered it conceded it would not reverse the extensive brain damage which had already occurred.

They are painting GOSH as the "bad guys". They say they've been fighting for Charlie, I just think they've been fighting for themselves, unable to accept the reality of what has happened. For once I don't blame the press for whipping up this circus, the parents have actively courted publicity, they didn't need to accept the interviews if they wanted this to be a private matter. It suited their agenda to court the publicity. And the result is GOSH staff being abused and threatened and protests accusing the GOSH of letting Charlie die when something could have been done (which it couldn't). And all the time poor Charlie lies there as this drags on and on, unable to see, unable to move, unable to breathe without being assisted. I just hope he hasn't been in pain.

It IS easy to sit here pontificating, I've never been in their situation and I hope I never have to be. But I do know other people who have been in similar situations and they have come to an agreement with the doctors to end life support, they haven't dragged it through the courts and made it a national story. So people saying "any parent would have done the same" are simply wrong.

I do feel sorry for the parents, they had a (seemingly) perfectly healthy baby boy and then all this happened. But they have refused to accept the reality of what happened and that has meant more suffering for Charlie, abuse of the GOSH staff and resources wasted on keeping Charlie alive artificially when those resources could have been better spent on kids who have a chance of recovery when he had none.

As I said before, there are no winners in all this, only losers. But maybe some good can come out of the money they raised.

I offer this posting into closing evidence.

[Letters]

I get where NQ is coming from. Glance through the below stories. There are plenty of examples of parents having to question what they're originally told by doctors and take a chance. Not saying they don’t care but the ‘duty of care’ line can only stretch so far. We’re talking about an organisation that’s under staffed, underfunded and relying on limited resources. When that stretched I question how much pressure they are under to look for the quick solution.
I don't think there is anything wrong with them not just accepting the doctor's opinion at face value.
I completely understand them asking for second opinions. Anyone would do that.
What most people wouldn't do though is whip up a media storm and act like GOSH are trying to kill their child (leading to abuse of and threats towards GOSH staff) and claim that they have found a cure if only those nasty GOSH people would let them take their child.
This experimental treatment is NOT a cure and has never even been tried on this form of Charlie's condition.
It would NOT reverse the extensive brain damage which had already occurred late last year.
Multiple medical experts and multiple courts kept telling them the same thing.

[Letters]

I offer this posting into closing evidence.

Another post where you say nothing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I get where NQ is coming from. Glance through the below stories. There are plenty of examples of parents having to question what they're originally told by doctors and take a chance. Not saying they don’t care but the ‘duty of care’ line can only stretch so far. We’re talking about an organisation that’s under staffed, underfunded and relying on limited resources. When that stretched I question how much pressure they are under to look for the quick solution.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9223408/Miracle-recovery-of-teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html



http://metro.co.uk/2017/03/26/boys-miracle-recovery-from-rare-cancer-after-mum-gave-him-cannabis-6534160/



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/baby-left-no-brain-activity-10865982

I would hope that you accept that these are outliers. And it's not a basis for which we can decide To routinely ignore medical expertise.

And at the risk of being a pedant, a miracle would be defined as a disturbance to the natural order to make what would appear physically impossible, possible (and that's why there's no such thing, at best a demonstration of a gap or an error in our understanding). These are cases where the chances of recovery are statistically slim and they have defied the odds.
It's not a matter of blind faith.

[Letters]

I'll just leave this here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo

1 Corinthians 2:14, innit.

[Letters]

And at the risk of being a pedant, a miracle would be defined as a disturbance to the natural order to make what would appear physically impossible, possible (and that's why there's no such thing, at best a demonstration of a gap or an error in our understanding). These are cases where the chances of recovery are statistically slim and they have defied the odds.
It's not a matter of blind faith.
Next time my mate Dave gives his testimony I'll invite you along ##

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think there is anything wrong with them not just accepting the doctor's opinion at face value.
I completely understand them asking for second opinions. Anyone would do that.
What most people wouldn't do though is whip up a media storm and act like GOSH are trying to kill their child (leading to abuse of and threats towards GOSH staff) and claim that they have found a cure if only those nasty GOSH people would let them take their child.
This experimental treatment is NOT a cure and has never even been tried on this form of Charlie's condition.
It would NOT reverse the extensive brain damage which had already occurred late last year.
Multiple medical experts and multiple courts kept telling them the same thing.

Again that's it, getting a second conflicting judgement is obviously completely fine. But the GOSH doctors aren't unfeeling bureaucrats just going by the book. There's disagreeing with their judgement (which in the case of the parents is more a case of obdurate refusal to give up which no one can fault) and making out they are just trying to kill the child.

[Niall_Quinn]

Another post where you say nothing.

I'd never try to deprive you of reading the previous posts.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Next time my mate Dave gives his testimony I'll invite you along ##

Ok, because that would obviously be the first time I'd ever heard people give anecdotal evidence about something spiritual, miraculous or other worldly they'd encountered.

[WMUG]

1 Corinthians 2:14, innit.

How convenient.

[Letters]

I'd never try to deprive you of reading the previous posts.

Why don't you, for a change, try and address the issues I've raised. To sum up for you:
Yes, parents by default should be the ones making decisions for their children. BUT there should be a process in place if it's felt the parents are making decisions which will harm their child.

[Power n Glory]

I would hope that you accept that these are outliers. And it's not a basis for which we can decide To routinely ignore medical expertise.

And at the risk of being a pedant, a miracle would be defined as a disturbance to the natural order to make what would appear physically impossible, possible (and that's why there's no such thing, at best a demonstration of a gap or an error in our understanding). These are cases where the chances of recovery are statistically slim and they have defied the odds.
It's not a matter of blind faith.

Of course this isn’t a regular occurrence. The odds of survival are slim but you’re missing the point and shifting the focus from some of the points NQ made. The question is, when met with overwhelming odds, how far will doctors push to look beyond their usual methods to cure a patient? They have a ‘duty of care’ but how likely are they to look for alternative medicine if the treatments not supplied by Pfizer or the other massive pharmaceutical companies they’re contracted to work with?

[Power n Glory]

I do believe in miraculous healings. Well, it's more than a vague belief, I know a couple of people quite well who have experienced them. But I also know that these things are not common. And the parents in this case weren't basing their hopes for Charlie on faith in such things, they simply thought they knew better than the doctors. They still do.

Would it make a difference if they were Christian? If they'd been praying and believed God told them to press on with their pastor and congregation all backing them to press on and fight despite what the doctors have told them? Would that still make them idiotic?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Of course this isn’t a regular occurrence. The odds of survival are slim but you’re missing the point and shifting the focus from some of the points NQ made. The question is, when met with overwhelming odds, how far will doctors push to look beyond their usual methods to cure a patient? They have a ‘duty of care’ but how likely are they to look for alternative medicine if the treatments not supplied by Pfizer or the other massive pharmaceutical companies they’re contracted to work with?

No I'm not missing the point, in the case of these doctors the decision they made was based on the fact that Charlie would most likely not survive the journey over to the United States to have treatment which even the people offering it stated would not reverse the damage done.

The argument about big pharma, can be very lopsided and overlooks the amount of clinical research these companies do that the NHS simply could not afford....which is why I don't get the piety of certain people (which politicians jump on) stating that there should be no private involvement in the service.

Are there doctors in the NHS who are paid to push the medication produced by certain companies....yes of course, it's wrong and in breach of medical ethics for me. But again find me the evidence that this was in anyway a factor in this case.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Would it make a difference if they were Christian? If they'd been praying and believed God told them to press on with their pastor and congregation all backing them to press on and fight despite what the doctors have told them? Would that still make them idiotic?

I know that comment wasn't directed at me but just to clarify. I don't have any issue with the parents doing everything in their power to pursue the longest of long shots for their son. What I resent is the attitude that because the doctors have come to the conclusion that it would do him more harm than good (people who work for GOSH are dedicated in their care for children, it's a very tough decision for them to conclude a child cannot be helped) that they are de facto murdering their son.

[Letters]

Would it make a difference if they were Christian? If they'd been praying and believed God told them to press on with their pastor and congregation all backing them to press on and fight despite what the doctors have told them? Would that still make them idiotic?

I don't think that would carry much weight with a court and it probably shouldn't do.

[Power n Glory]

No I'm not missing the point, in the case of these doctors the decision they made was based on the fact that Charlie would most likely not survive the journey over to the United States to have treatment which even the people offering it stated would not reverse the damage done.

The argument about big pharma, can be very lopsided and overlooks the amount of clinical research these companies do that the NHS simply could not afford....which is why I don't get the piety of certain people (which politicians jump on) stating that there should be no private involvement in the service.

Are there doctors in the NHS who are paid to push the medication produced by certain companies....yes of course, it's wrong and in breach of medical ethics for me. But again find me the evidence that this was in anyway a factor in this case.


How many months did it take for them to arrive at that conclusion? The disease was diagnosed last September. 6 months later they say his life support should be switched off. How fast did this develop and could nothing have been done sooner?

I don’t need to provide evidence. The point you’ve just made contradicts what you’ve said about a ‘duty of care’. Unless you want to redefine what you mean?

[Power n Glory]

I don't think that would carry much weight with a court and it probably shouldn't do.

I didn’t ask if it would carry much weight in court. To clarify, how would you judge the parents if they were Christian and standing on faith, so to speak?

[Letters]

I didn’t ask if it would carry much weight in court. To clarify, how would you judge the parents if they were Christian and standing on faith, so to speak?

If it was an easily treatable condition I'd think they were being bloody idiots.
In a situation like Charlie Gard where there is no medical option then I'd admire their faith and hope they were right but I wouldn't think they'd be dragging this through the courts until God did His miracle.
If He's going to do one then He doesn't need to wait for a certain court ruling to do it.

[Niall_Quinn]

Why don't you, for a change, try and address the issues I've raised. To sum up for you:
Yes, parents by default should be the ones making decisions for their children. BUT there should be a process in place if it's felt the parents are making decisions which will harm their child.

Address the "issue" you've raised? All you did was chime in with a bunch of disconnected nonsense, That's not my opinion, btw. It's fact.

For instance, you believe in medical miracles AND the primacy of the medical profession - AT THE SAME TIME.

So how can anybody take you in the least bit seriously?

[Letters]

Yes, parents by default should be the ones making decisions for their children. BUT there should be a process in place if it's felt the parents are making decisions which will harm their child.
Have another go, NQ, there's a good chap.
What about the above do you disagree with? Very simple question, why do you always run away from those?

[Niall_Quinn]

I know that comment wasn't directed at me but just to clarify. I don't have any issue with the parents doing everything in their power to pursue the longest of long shots for their son. What I resent is the attitude that because the doctors have come to the conclusion that it would do him more harm than good (people who work for GOSH are dedicated in their care for children, it's a very tough decision for them to conclude a child cannot be helped) that they are de facto murdering their son.

It's actually none of their damn business. Why don't people understand that fundamental reality? The medical profession was asked for assistance in helping this child. They admitted they can't provide it. So fuck off already! Just because some kangaroo court claims state's rights based on statute (imaginary and arbitrary law) or just because some lecturer stuffed a drone's head full of authoritarian bullshit doesn't make a difference. The medical profession has clearly exceeded the bounds of its competency and authority, as has the court and the state. And if we don't believe that then we are self professed slaves. Owned by an imaginary construct that is administered by individuals who claim to know what's best for us and our offspring. By what right do they make such claims? If that's not intolerable then NOTHING is ever intolerable.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's actually none of their damn business. Why don't people understand that fundamental reality? The medical profession was asked for assistance in helping this child. They admitted they can't provide it. So fuck off already! Just because some kangaroo court claims state's rights based on statute (imaginary and arbitrary law) or just because some lecturer stuffed a drone's head full of authoritarian bullshit doesn't make a difference. The medical profession has clearly exceeded the bounds of its competency and authority, as has the court and the state. And if we don't believe that then we are self professed slaves. Owned by an imaginary construct that is administered by individuals who claim to know what's best for us and our offspring. By what right do they make such claims? If that's not intolerable then NOTHING is ever intolerable.

Where do you draw the line with that kind of thinking?

Do you think it's wrong of the state to interfere to prevent a child being mistreated by the parents. From denying them treatment on religious grounds to actually beating or sexually assaulting the child (statistically most child sexual offences go on within the family unit)

And there's something else you're forgetting. That in order to even attempt to transport this child across the Atlantic would have required the assistance of GOSH to begin with so in effect become complicit in the very thing they feel is damaging the child.

[Letters]

But, again, it's not just that they said they couldn't provide it, it's that they said NO-ONE can provide it and the kid was beyond help. The parents disagreed so fine, then someone has to make a decision.
It becomes their damn business when the kid is taken to hospital, then the doctors have a duty of care.
Their basis for thinking they know better than the parents is years of medical training and experience. Yes, doctors are fallible and prone to God-complex but overall I'd say they get it right more than they get it wrong.
Not all parents DO know what's best for their children and sometimes parents are actively a danger to their children. It's fairly rare but there are occasions when someone does need to intervene.

[Power n Glory]

If it was an easily treatable condition I'd think they were being bloody idiots.
In a situation like Charlie Gard where there is no medical option then I'd admire their faith and hope they were right but I wouldn't think they'd be dragging this through the courts until God did His miracle.
If He's going to do one then He doesn't need to wait for a certain court ruling to do it.

If you believe in miracles, you can't really dictate how things should be done. But that's another topic.

But overall point being we shouldn't judge the parents so harshly or be so cynical.

[Niall_Quinn]

Where do you draw the line with that kind of thinking?

Do you think it's wrong of the state to interfere to prevent a child being mistreated by the parents. From denying them treatment on religious grounds to actually beating or sexually assaulting the child (statistically most child sexual offences go on within the family unit)

And there's something else you're forgetting. That in order to even attempt to transport this child across the Atlantic would have required the assistance of GOSH to begin with so in effect become complicit in the very thing they feel is damaging the child.

There's no need to draw any lines, they are already drawn. The common law, which is both legal and lawful, provides for harm committed through acts of violence or malevolent abuse. Why you compare such easily definable crimes against a child to this particular circumstance I don't know.

As for the saints at GOSH, perhaps they can teleport his bed across the ocean? But I see your point. Yes indeed, they could hide behind a technicality to have their way. Although I wonder if a third party entering the hospital and freeing this kidnap victim would constitute cooperation on the part of the hospital.

[Niall_Quinn]

Have another go, NQ, there's a good chap.
What about the above do you disagree with? Very simple question, why do you always run away from those?

Have another go at what? Discussing issues based in logic with somebody who believes in miracles? Why would I do that? What could either of us gain from it?

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think that would carry much weight with a court and it probably shouldn't do.

Why not?

Are your prayers and miracles real or imaginary? Seriously. Are your beliefs founded in reality or imagination?

And if you insist your beliefs are founded in reality, even if it is part of reality that is presently beyond our understanding, please tell me why the courts should have any say at all in the matter? And why would you ever defer to their authority on such things? It seems to me you want to pick and choose from two conflicting belief systems. And didn't you read a book on cognitive dissonance?

[Letters]

Have another go at what? Discussing issues based in logic with somebody who believes in miracles? Why would I do that? What could either of us gain from it?

This is a strange reply given that you already did reply to my point, and I have replied back.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is a strange reply given that you already did reply to my point, and I have replied back.

No, I replied to a different point that's no longer really on the same topic. It's fascinating what you claim to believe.

[Letters]

But overall point being we shouldn't judge the parents so harshly or be so cynical.
They are the ones who have put this in the public domain, that gives people a right to an opinion. I've made mine pretty clear. If you disagree then that's fine.
I feel sorry for what has happened to them but I personally don't believe they have acted in the best interests of their child, although I'm sure they thought they were.
Most of all I feel sorry for the kid.

[Letters]

It's fascinating what you claim to believe.
There goes another irony-meter!

[Letters]

By the way, I feel I should should respond to the assertion a couple of pages back that GOSH are in favour of "terminating the life of the child". Terminate implies they want to take active steps to euthenise.
Were there not all kinds of machines keeping him alive Charlie would have been dead months ago.
What GOSH are advocating is that since he has no quality of life and no prospect of one (and hasn't had for some time) they should withdraw the artificial means by which they are keeping him alive. Anyone who thinks this is "playing God"...well, doctors are "playing God" every time they whip out someone's grumbling appendix before it kills them. Medical science has come a long way but it can only do so much.
IMO GOSH have consistently done what they believe is best for the child, I don't believe you can say for his parents. Well, I'm sure they "believed" they were doing what was best but they were sadly misguided IMO.

Some people are acting like GOSH staff are just itching to flip the switch. Really is pathetic and an insult to the mostly dedicated staff who work there.

[Power n Glory]

Why not?

Are your prayers and miracles real or imaginary? Seriously. Are your beliefs founded in reality or imagination?

And if you insist your beliefs are founded in reality, even if it is part of reality that is presently beyond our understanding, please tell me why the courts should have any say at all in the matter? And why would you ever defer to their authority on such things? It seems to me you want to pick and choose from two conflicting belief systems. And didn't you read a book on cognitive dissonance?

A similar problem I had last week with the theory of evolution being mixed in with the Bible.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There's no need to draw any lines, they are already drawn. The common law, which is both legal and lawful, provides for harm committed through acts of violence or malevolent abuse. Why you compare such easily definable crimes against a child to this particular circumstance I don't know.

As for the saints at GOSH, perhaps they can teleport his bed across the ocean? But I see your point. Yes indeed, they could hide behind a technicality to have their way. Although I wonder if a third party entering the hospital and freeing this kidnap victim would constitute cooperation on the part of the hospital.

If they did nothing to stop it and the child died (which he almost certainly would) than yes.

There's no difference, if we are stating that the wishes of the parents supersede anything else why wouldn't it also apply in the examples I've cited.

I think Letters might have stated this but why take a child into hospital ever if you're just going to blatantly disregard the advice of the doctors if you don't happen to like it. It's a bit like taking your car in for an MOT which it fails and getting the hump when the mechanics tell you it's neither safe or legal to drive it as it stands.

[Niall_Quinn]

If they did nothing to stop it and the child died (which he almost certainly would) than yes.

There's no difference, if we are stating that the wishes of the parents supersede anything else why wouldn't it also apply in the examples I've cited.

I think Letters might have stated this but why take a child into hospital ever if you're just going to blatantly disregard the advice of the doctors if you don't happen to like it. It's a bit like taking your car in for an MOT which it fails and getting the hump when the mechanics tell you it's neither safe or legal to drive it as it stands.

The alternative to your thinking is to accept their advice blindly. I've been to doctors who are abject quacks and have told me things I know to be untrue (from tested experience with other doctors in some cases). Advice is just that. You seek it and then you act on it if you find it reasonable, credible useful. I suppose the parents here are balking at the idea of the state killing their kid, when what they originally wanted was help. I don't blame then for rejecting the advice of individuals who admit they are of no use in this case. Why would you want the advice of people who openly admit, "We don't know what to do"? Not really advice at all, is it?

The wishes of the parents should, of course, supersede the state in all cases where a crime has not been committed. In fact supersede is the wrong word entirely, it implies the state has rights in terms of the relationship between parents and a child. It doesn't. Any rights it claims are imaginary, which is why they have to use statute to justify their unlawful interference.

[Letters]

The alternative to your thinking is to accept their advice blindly.
No, it isn't.
Why are you unable to think in any shades of grey?

There is a huge middle ground between blindly accepting everything a doctor tells you and repeatedly going "la, la, la, can't hear you" as medical expert after medical expert keep telling you the same thing.
Asking a second opinion is perfectly reasonable, maybe even a third. But there gets to a point where you have to face up to the reality of the situation.

And no-one is "killing" their kid, they are just saying there's nothing more they can do, and nothing more that ANYONE can do, so they believe it is in the best interests of the child to allow nature to take its course.
Yes, the parents wanted help and they got it, but there is only so much medical science can do.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The alternative to your thinking is to accept their advice blindly. I've been to doctors who are abject quacks and have told me things I know to be untrue (from tested experience with other doctors in some cases). Advice is just that. You seek it and then you act on it if you find it reasonable, credible useful. I suppose the parents here are balking at the idea of the state killing their kid, when what they originally wanted was help. I don't blame then for rejecting the advice of individuals who admit they are of no use in this case. Why would you want the advice of people who openly admit, "We don't know what to do"? Not really advice at all, is it?

The wishes of the parents should, of course, supersede the state in all cases where a crime has not been committed. In fact supersede is the wrong word entirely, it implies the state has rights in terms of the relationship between parents and a child. It doesn't. Any rights it claims are imaginary, which is why they have to use statute to justify their unlawful interference.

But again what evidence is there here that the alternative advice was better, when again i have stated that the people who have advocated this treatment admitted they had neither seen the child or examined his case notes.

There is a bit of a difference to ignoring a referral to a proctologist when you just have a case of the two Bob bits

To ignoring it when doctors saying the best way you can guarantee this child dies is to try and move him

[Niall_Quinn]

They are the ones who have put this in the public domain, that gives people a right to an opinion. I've made mine pretty clear. If you disagree then that's fine.
I feel sorry for what has happened to them but I personally don't believe they have acted in the best interests of their child, although I'm sure they thought they were.
Most of all I feel sorry for the kid.

I'm sure they don't require your sympathy, utterly meaningless as it is. Doubt they need your opinion either. But here you are nonetheless. Perhaps they don't read this forum. We can but hope. They needed to raise money from the public. Seems the public domain was the best route to go. Does that mean they want a swarm of car crash voyeurs pitching up with their opinions and condemnations? Doubtful, but could be.


...I personally don't believe they have acted in the best interests of their child...

Astonishing.

On the one hand, you have your miracles. On the other you find it unreasonable that anyone should question the proclamations of the medical profession, even when there's dissent within that profession. And, in your entirely balanced and rational opinion which is based in the real world or miracles and subservience, you have reached the conclusion that a family you don't know has not acted in the best interests of a child you don't know because a bunch of doctors you know nothing about have decreed it?

Poor kid. Awful. Terrible. But the right thing to do is let him die. Next...

[Letters]

Why not?

Are your prayers and miracles real or imaginary? Seriously. Are your beliefs founded in reality or imagination?

And if you insist your beliefs are founded in reality, even if it is part of reality that is presently beyond our understanding, please tell me why the courts should have any say at all in the matter? And why would you ever defer to their authority on such things? It seems to me you want to pick and choose from two conflicting belief systems. And didn't you read a book on cognitive dissonance?

I believe miracles are real, well I know they are because of testimonies I've heard.
But it's notable that my friend Dave who was cured of cancer did not just stop seeking medical help when other Christians told him they believed he would be healed. And also, he knows other people, as do I, who have had cancer and there were prayers for healing and it didn't happen. It makes me, and him, wonder why God doesn't cure everyone but there's lots of things I don't understand about God.
So I wouldn't advocate parents stopping medical treatment because they believed that a miracle would occur, nor do I think doctors or courts should.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Aren't you determining similarly that because they work for the NHS their medical expertise isn't credible?

Determining that they are simply wanting their own way rather than trying to uphold the best interests of the kid.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I believe miracles are real, well I know they are because of testimonies I've heard..

Overlooking for a second the solipsism in people believing that the universal laws have been suspended in their favour, and the logic fallacy in attempting to introduce revealed truth. People stating that they can determine from the alleged occurrence of bizarre phenomena that we can infer the existence of God not only that but it's motives.

You know nothing of the sort. You have anecdotal evidence of X occurring because of what someone has told you which you have then taken as confirmation bias.

[Letters]

I'm sure they don't require your sympathy, utterly meaningless as it is. Doubt they need your opinion either. But here you are nonetheless.
And here are you. We're on a messageboard, we're debating stuff about people who will never read this and probably don't care about our opinions, as we do about football. That's kinda how these boards work.


On the other you find it unreasonable that anyone should question the proclamations of the medical profession
No, I don't find that unreasonable as I've made clear above. And my opinions are based on the things I've read about this case. My opinion is based on incomplete data as is yours.


Poor kid. Awful. Terrible. But the right thing to do is let him die. Next...
You think they should keep him alive...well, alive is being nice, existing really, indefinitely? What do you think the right thing to do for him is given his condition and prognosis?

[Letters]

You know nothing of the sort. You have anecdotal evidence of X occurring because of what someone has told you which you have then taken as confirmation bias.
Well, the difference between "believe" and "know" is only one's perceived level of certainty. I say I "know" this, I may be wrong. I used to "know" that the Coriolis effect causes water to drain down a plug differently in the northern ans southern hemispheres but that turned out to be wrong.

You will say you know the reverse of course, but you may be wrong.