Can Arteta coach forwards?

[IBK]

Thought I'd try to start some Arsenal debate in an interminable interlull.

I've been pondering whether coaching forwards is the manager's Achilles heel, at a time when the game appears to be circling back to more traditional forward and wing play, from the high (low) point of Guardiaola playing without a traditional CF a couple of years ago.

Case for the prosecution:

1. The only forwards bought during Arteta's tenure (including attacking MF's and wingers) are Jesus; Havertz*; Odegard; Vieira; Trossard and Marquinos. The rest (19 out of 25) are MF's defenders and a GK.

2. Vieira and Marquinos were failures, so we are down to 4 forwards, one of whom (Havertz) was signed as a left 8 and 'fell' into the striker role almost by accident. Neither is he a traditional CF - more a false 9.

3. Odegard falls into the Saka camp. A player so talented that he can be effective almost on his own initiative, rather than training. Saka has aguably not been coached to be as effective a front man as he could be - and his defensive duties; as well as the lack of forward options, and a consistent threat on the left (that mean he is doubled or even tripled up on) detract from his attacking threat. His brilliance means that he has been a major contributor to our goals almost despite, more than because of the team set up.

4. We lament Martinelli's form, but when he arrived on the scene, he was one of the best young attacking prospects in the world. He has been neutered by a lack of support on the LHS, and has stagnated rather than progressed under Arteta's tutilage.

5. Attackers die under our manager. Pepe scored 16 goals in his first season but was frozen out and his form collapsed. Aubameyang dropped off a cliff and was frozen out/sold contraversially; ESR almost single handedly saved Arteta's job with his form in 2020/21 and while his next season was blighted by injury, he was never given a real chance to recapture hs form; Jesus changed our world, and I refuse to believe that he has declined terminally at 27. Fabio Vieira had scored 13 times in 21 appearances at the time he joined us; Nketia was England under 21 record goalscorer; Trossard averaged 0.66 goals per 90 minutes last season, but is down to 0.33 this season.

Saka and Havertz have suffered by being over played, and we lack any proper back up for Odegard to set up attacks (or the manager is reluctant to trust/develop Nwaneri for this role).

6. Arteta was mad keen on Mudryk - but we have seen nothing since he joined Chelsea to suggest that this was merited; Willian and (it would now seem) Sterling were/are disasters. Lack of judgment?

Its all good and well sharing out goals as we did last season, but we have been over reliant on set pieces this season, and it's obvious that we both lack a focal point and a 'Plan A' when it comes to attacking. Is the reason less our attacking players' form, and more the manager's failure to develop/build/nurture our team as an attacking force?

[Mac76]

Generally agree with your analysis although I think Havertz is definitely able to be more a traditional 9, not just a false one

[Marc Overmars]

He has always been risk averse coach which has plagued us since the start. I’d love to know how many games we’ve lost without scoring because it feels like a lot under Arteta. I appreciate the fact that you need defensive stability and control to compete but goals and only goals are going to actually get you over the line when it matters. Even someone like Mourinho at his defensive peak often had world class forwards who would deliver consistently.

I don’t believe that he can’t coach forwards, I think it’s more that he doesn’t feel like they’re absolutely essential. Which is something from the Pep playbook that he probably observed at City.

I think we are a team of substance but no style. Which is a complete 180 to what we used to be. I think Arteta has over complicated things, we take too much touches and cannot seem to penetrate defences with any pace because of the sideways nature of our football. Any forward will probably suffer in our current system.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

He has always been risk averse coach which has plagued us since the start. I’d love to know how many games we’ve lost without scoring because it feels like a lot under Arteta. I appreciate the fact that you need defensive stability and control to compete but goals and only goals are going to actually get you over the line when it matters. Even someone like Mourinho at his defensive peak often had world class forwards who would deliver consistently.

I don’t believe that he can’t coach forwards, I think it’s more that he doesn’t feel like they’re absolutely essential. Which is something from the Pep playbook that he probably observed at City.

I think we are a team of substance but no style. Which is a complete 180 to what we used to be. I think Arteta has over complicated things, we take too much touches and cannot seem to penetrate defences with any pace because of the sideways nature of our football. Any forward will probably suffer in our current system.

I agree with everything you said except your partial defence of him on the forwards thing. Their I'm with IBK.

I mean he's been a coach for five years and has failed to nuture or spot on his own a quality forward. I also believe he's added very little to Saka and Odegaard's game and clearly Martinelli has regressed. Trossard is also regressing though TBF he was one of the first to identify his killer instinct and that he was better as a forward than a winger.

TBF, it's probably difficult for a coach to be an expert in all areas. I also think his mentor isn't that great in spotting strikers despite Haaland's obvious success (which face it, all the stats from his previous clubs meant was likely anyway). AW wasn't great in building defences or spotting out quality defenders either and like I've said many times owed his early successes to the culture and foundation he found at the club.

Maybe the sooner he recognises his weakness, the more likely he does something about it. I really want the guy who comes and takes Edu's job to be someone Arteta (or whoever the coach is) can bounce footballing ideas off, just like the way AW was able to do with Dein.

[Marc Overmars]

Saka and Martinelli’s defensive responsibilities have reduced their goal scoring threat for sure. Although in the case of Martinelli I think he’s also a very weak finisher which doesn’t help. Trossard has flopped in the Odegaard role because he just isn’t that player, he’s someone you want in and around the penalty box not dropping deep. Hopefully normality is restored now Odegaard is back.

I think it’s a tad harsh not to credit Arteta with bringing the best out of Odegaard, he may be a very gifted player but his career was also drifting until he finally settled with us.

But yeah overall it’s fair to say that Arteta isn’t exactly a coach who forwards would look at and think he can bring the best out of them.

[IBK]

Interesting comments all. I guess my OP was not seeking to be 'critical' of Arteta per se, but to highlight the ways in which he appears deficient when it comes to his ability to both identify and develop forwards.

While the manager is of course risk averse/defensively minded, I am beginning to think that this might not be the only reason for our obvious deficiencies in the attacking third, and am wondering whether this is simply not Arteta's skill set. He is coaching like he played. The counter argument as MO says is that he doesn’t feel like forwards are absolutely essential, but for me this argument begs the question why can't our manager see what everyone else sees - that we are becoming a team that cannot do the basics of scoring goals reliably - or at least to the extent that a league winner must do.

As for the substance but no style observation. This is true for this season, but I don't think it applies to the second half of last season. However, 3 years ago we were in the same place, style wise. is this Arteta's 'norm'?

Great point 21GS that it's probably difficult for a coach to be an expert in all areas - and also that Guardiola has the same 'defect' when it comes to forwards, despite Haaland. Arteta is Guardiola's mentor after all. If Arteta really does not believe in forwards, then the likelihood of him bringing in help in this department seems unlikely.

[IBK]

As for individual players. Yes Odegard has flourished under Arteta, but his strengths are pressing and passing (plus leadership) - all Arteta traits/priorities. However, many perople have observed that he should be scoring more given his talent and importance to the team - so maybe this circles back to my original point.

And Havertz - my false 9 description was based on his role this season where he has dropped into MF a lot rather than occupy the striker zone like a Haaland. Again, my point is that he was not bought as CF. This was not Areta's vision, but a fortunate circumstance caused by him showing a talent when he was played up front. Also while he has done well in the forward role, I would not describe him as a traditional striker.

As for Jesus. I cannot be sure of course, but it does not seem as though Arteta is responding to his needs. I think Jesus needs (1) playing time, and (2) an arm around his shoulder. Its funny how Arteta persisted with Havertz until he came good, and is doing the same with Merino, but so far doesn't seem to be encouraging Jesus that much to try to find the form that we need him to show.