General Football Nonsense

[Letters]

yes and it's derived from an in-built superiority going back to the British Empire

There is something in that. And the fact that so much pop music, TV films is in English and consumed by a worldwide audience, it makes English easier to learn in a way - or there's more incentive to maybe.
Either way, I'd suggest it's a factor in why fewer English players have gone overseas to ply their trade - obviously there examples, you've listed some, but it has historically been rare.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Really?

I see exactly the opposite - bulldogs and flags everywhere, a stupid denial - or almost as bad, an acceptance - of the economic and social damage done because of a backwards-looking illogical sense of not wanting them foreigners over 'ere and 'taking back control' which is nonsense in a global economy

Well I know that’s what you see, but you see the world through the eyes of someone who embodies the attitude I'm deriding.

The irony of parochialism goes hand in hand with the irony of you accusing other people of a superior attitude

[Mac76]

Where does the inbuilt self-hating middle class snootiness that George Orwell observed in Road to Wigan Pier derive from, do you think?

I think it comes from 18th and 19th century when the hipsters of the time (yes the wallies have always been with us) thought they were cool by declaring their love for French things - literature, cuisine, art and degeneracy. The libertine class who wanted to live like Byron or Shelley but lacked the talent

The middle classes don't make up most of the population, particularly culturally

even very well off builder company owners etc living in big houses and driving £100,000 cars still regard themselves as working class

that's the really depressing thing, money doesn't lead to enlightenment

It's not snobbery to like foreign culture, not least food where some foreign cultures have historically proved themselves more adept at using a greater variety of different ingredients and flavourings etc to create more interesting dishes

but also other cultural aspects, for example most rock music is essentially actually based on the blues which hails from, errr, abroad

Many great things have been created in this country but there's nothign wrong with acknowledging waht otehr cultures bring to the table

England is not the best country in the world - to say so is nationalistic BS - but it has brought some great things but so have other cultures - other countries/cultures are just different, not better or worse

[HCZ_Reborn]

Anyway, I should say there’s no genuine enmity from me. But I felt Mac76 deserved a bit of a scathing attitude for trying to be a clever dick. I wouldn’t mind but I’d already referenced Glenn Hoddle’s time in Marseille earlier

[Marc Overmars]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

[HCZ_Reborn]

The middle classes don't make up most of the population, particularly culturally

even very well off builder company owners etc living in big houses and driving £100,000 cars still regard themselves as working class

that's the really depressing thing, money doesn't lead to enlightenment

It's not snobbery to like foreign culture, not least food where some foreign cultures have historically proved themselves more adept at using a greater variety of different ingredients and flavourings etc to create more interesting dishes

but also other cultural aspects, for example most rock music is essentially actually based on the blues which hails from, errr, abroad

Many great things have been created in this country but there's nothign wrong with acknowledging waht otehr cultures bring to the table

England is not the best country in the world - to say so is nationalistic BS - but it has brought some great things but so have other cultures - other countries/cultures are just different, not better or worse

No it’s not snobbery to like other cultures, but it is when you have such utter contempt for your own because you think it makes you seem worldly and enlightened. As I say, the irony is it actually shows you how little you understand foreign culture.

Take France for example, this English superiority you speak of is as nothing compared to Gaulism and French pride. You see the tricolour everywhere in France…there isn’t any handwringing about belting out La marseillaise. And whatever contempt you feel that the Brits might have for the French…well they more than reciprocate….and not just to us…they absolutely hate the Germans as well.

Similar attitude in Italy as well. Italian pride is just not something they are bashful about.


Human beings are tribal by nature. As I explained earlier there’s literally no difference between that kind of jingoism and Arsenal fans singing “we are by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen”

It’s just the middle class effete elitists who currently hold a hegemony on the culture (in terms of the academic institutions and things like art and entertainment) don’t like it.


Also I’m glad that you managed to appreciate the point I made the other day which is that the class system in this country is cosplaying and just because someone may identify as working class, it doesn’t make them so. Although I think you’re more referring to the cultural phenomenon of what was known as the Nouveau Riche.

[HCZ_Reborn]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

Whilst I really don’t like this kind of hatred for British Empire stuff where people are taught to be ashamed of our past rather than just accept it for what it was. Man we did a fucking horrible job with India , we murdered the intellectual and moderate Muslims, we absolutely influenced their caste system and the India-Pakistan divide which we drew up displaced millions and causes trouble to this day. And this is even before you get to the Bengal famine.


Soz

[Letters]

For people in other parts of the world, knowing English is also something that can elevate you socially too. An Indian chap I work with told me that if you don’t know English you are seen as being uneducated and therefore second class.

The thing which keeps the lights on at my organisation is the IELTS test - an English test* which people do in order to study or work in an English speaking country.
They love a bit of IELTS in India (and China). I've heard anecdotally than in places where people advertise for a partner they sometimes put their IELTS score as part of their profile!

*Fun fact, do you know what the difference between a test and an exam is? A test is on a subject - like English, hence IELTS being a test. An exam is based on a syllabus - so you are taught a load of stuff and then are examined on it.

[Letters]

Soz

Soz is right.
I may have related at the time when I was on a "very important" business trip to Cairo earlier in the year I had time for a quick trip to see the pyramids.
I vaguely remembered something about the Sphinx's beard so I asked our guide about it who cheerily informed me it's in the British Museum
Yeah, soz, that was kind of our thing!

But it's generations ago so, y'know, nothing to do with me, guv
I do find the German sense of national self-flagellation a bit weird about the War a bit strange, but I think a lot of that is borne out of a sense of not wishing to repeat historic mistakes rather than any sense of personal responsibility