Brighton vs Arsenal 04.01.2025 - KO: 17:30 GMT

[IBK]

Defence well we’ve conceded fewer goals than any other premier league team, and theres only one game in the last few months where we have given up loads of chances to the opposition and that was Crystal Palace

I think Arteta has to go, but everything in perspective. Four years ago we lost four home league games in a row and lost seven out of ten league games. We haven’t pushed on from challenging for the title last season and the season before that. We’ve sold players without replacing them presumably to free up the wage bill. We have too many players struggling for form, but we haven’t lost a game in any competition in almost two months, have lost seven overall in 12 months. Are second in the league

I’m furious because we aren’t top of the league on course for our first league title in over twenty years because I genuinely think that’s where we should be. But acting like we are where we were when we finished 8th is a trifle silly

The question of pushing on is an interesting one. We have improved in each of Arteta's 5 seasons in charge...and this season on results alone we are keeping pace so far with last time around. So I agree fully with you that some of the criticism of our team and manager is overblown. I agree with Letters also that its too early to judge (as opposed to being concerned about) our season.

In assessing our progress, there is an argument to be made that it is unfair to judge where we currently are without acknowledging the ill fortune we have suffered. An easy way to illustrate it is to ask where Liverpool would be had they been without Salah for a few weeks...or even if he was having a 'normal' rather than the astonishing season he is having. 17 goals in 18 Premier League games and 13 assists is not normal, and also supersedes anything that his manager has done. Slot is enjoying very good luck...and we have almost certainly been robbed of 6 points by refereeing that only seems to apply to Arsenal.

If Arteta were a star player, I do not think that anyone sensible could regard his 'signing' as other than a success to date. But if his contract was up for renewal at the end of this season, on current form I would (just as with a player), be asking whether a fat contract reflects what he is likely to do going forwards.

I don't think it's fair to judge the manager on what is often an uninspiring and conservative approach to games, if this approach is getting the results that he told us he was aiming to achieve in his fifth stage of development. Noone criticised Mourinho's success during his glory years on this basis.

But what I am starting to believe is that under Arteta, rather than last season - where we fell so agonisignly short - being a platform from which to push on again, it was a 'goldilocks' season in many ways. Timber aside we were incredibly fortunate with injuries. Havertz's form as a striker in the second part of the season was IMO a fortunate surprise for the manager - because he did not work in the role he was bought for. Trossard was a revelation, who now seems either to be declining physically or reverting more to type. Jorginho - bought as a back up - enjoyed an Indian summer and again I suspect out-performed the manager's expectations. Goals were shared out among the team - while Saliba and Big Gabi and Ben White in defence were pretty much ever presents.

What this season seems to be telling us is that we are not as resiliant as we could be to key injuries, and that reliance on our forward players to repeat their performances - particularly with a depleted squad following the Summer clear out - was misconceived.

Where I am wobbling on Arteta is that while he is conservative on the pitch, he appears to have gambled in terms of his squad. I don't know how much this is to do with PSR, or whether he has been frustrated by the owners, but I have to say that injuries aside we do not appear to have made the investments to ensure a further sustained push to where we want to get to. At this stage - and having seen (1) the Summer business we did, (2) the manager's apparent neglect in forward areas and (3) his use of the signings he has made (eg Rice in the wrong position; inability to solve the left hand side post Xhaka; big money spent on Merino who is nothing more than a squad option) I have to admit to wondering whether Arteta has the judgment to spend wisely on what is required.

[IBK]

Trossard was awful, kept giving the ball away or being caught in possession.

Playing Partey at RB should be made a criminal offence.

That line up was all about two thirds defence and one third attack - with nothing to bridge the gap between the two.

It didn't work last time when he set us up the same way either. It's a line up that you switch to when you are 3-0 up and want to see out a game, resting players.

He could have gone with a 3-5-3 and gone all out attack, but he is too cowardly.

For me our transitions are Arteta's blind spot. We neither have/play the personnel required, nor have a direct/cute enough approach to create sufficient chances when faced with a low block. It's fine using set pieces, but teams are working this out, and too often we are far too ponderous in our build up play and can't open teams up. It's ironic because for all our defensive ability, we are actuely vulnerable to teams who are quick in transition against us. I am really not sure whether our defence would fare much better if we were less obsessed with possession, because our desire for control might restrict the other side to few chances, but we seem vulnerable when those chances come against us.

[Mac76]

Trossard was awful, kept giving the ball away or being caught in possession.

Playing Partey at RB should be made a criminal offence.

That line up was all about two thirds defence and one third attack - with nothing to bridge the gap between the two.

It didn't work last time when he set us up the same way either. It's a line up that you switch to when you are 3-0 up and want to see out a game, resting players.

He could have gone with a 3-5-3 and gone all out attack, but he is too cowardly.

I agree that Partey at RB removes one of our best players from the midfield and he can't even do the RB role very well, it's certainly something of a crime :D

[HCZ_Reborn]

I agree that Partey at RB removes one of our best players from the midfield and he can't even do the RB role very well, it's certainly something of a crime :D

Yet you berated me when I expressed frustration about it on countless occasions

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

In assessing our progress, there is an argument to be made that it is unfair to judge where we currently are without acknowledging the ill fortune we have suffered. An easy way to illustrate it is to ask where Liverpool would be had they been without Salah for a few weeks...or even if he was having a 'normal' rather than the astonishing season he is having. 17 goals in 18 Premier League games and 13 assists is not normal, and also supersedes anything that his manager has done. Slot is enjoying very good luck...and we have almost certainly been robbed of 6 points by refereeing that only seems to apply to Arsenal.

I really don't disagree with much of what you have said, but is having a world class player admittedly in incredible form down to luck? Couldn't we then point to any good player on any team and discount what they are doing? Long term; Arsenal without Saka, Chelsea without Palmer etc. Fact is, for now at least we do have Salah and he's in unbelievable form but I don't put that down to luck. Plus, when we were without him last season for a chunk of 10 games or so, down to injury and AFCON our results stayed steady.

And I do think it is doing a disservice to what Slot has done at Liverpool this year. We were of course left in a fantastic position thanks to Klopp, given last season we weren't far away, except for a calamitous drop off after a 2-2 draw with United (ah shit). But even with that we are a much different team. We run alot less for example; we are actually amongst the bottom teams for distance run and sprints whereas even last season we were amongst the top end, even though we scaled back compared to the heyday of gung-ho Kloppball. And Slot is far more conscientious in terms of substitutions from both a fitness and game-managing aspect, bringing on people like Endo to close a game with 15/20 minutes left repeatedly when one of Klopp's failings was not making subs at all. And then of course dealing with the contract situation for undoubtedly our three most important players, which to say the least has been distracting.

And even with everything else, following Klopp absolutely nobody (myself included) though we'd even be in the conversation, regardless of City's drop off, so the sheer fact we are is surprising.

We've still had our fair share of injuries, with the likes of Alisson, Konate and Jota out for multiple weeks. Even squadies like Tsimikas, Elliott and Bradley have had weeks/months out, when they've been solid alternates or even better options. I'm not one to put things down to luck one way or the other, but you have had the bulk of your team fit for the whole of last season. Now that you are having injuries to the likes of Saka is that unlucky or a natural progression/consequence of previous years? We've had the same previously so it's not even a criticism per se, but naturally going 100% leads to a drop off somewhere along the line.

All that being said, and I think this is quoting another post somewhere, I actually do think we have massively dropped off form in the last few weeks, though it hasn't necessarily translated through to results yet. Defensively we are nowhere near as comfortable, which I do think has coincided with Konate's injury; but ultimately it's whether the drop off in play leads on to more dropped points (I think that will happen regardless) or we ride that out and our form picks up. With more games coming up more quickly I think that will lead to a natural drop (btw I think our performances in the cups and in Europe has been overlooked) which will therefore lead to more opportunities but I don't know if any team is strong enough to capitalise properly anyway.

Whilst I'm prattling on (and this isn't a direct reply to your post), I do think Saliba's red card was totally fair. The red for Rice was very harsh but equally he was a fucking idiot who gave another idiot the option to send him off. I always remember going back years now Mascherano being sent off for the one week answering back/arguing with the ref was an automatic red. The next week that rule was gone...

It is quite funny though how similar both of our seasons have been so far, compared to last year. And for the same reasons, both teams are sat here thinking we won't have to do the same again, and it will still be enough..... and City somehow still nick it by winning 11 on the bounce without anyone noticing.

[Mac76]

And I do think it is doing a disservice to what Slot has done at Liverpool this year. We were of course left in a fantastic position thanks to Klopp, given last season we weren't far away, except for a calamitous drop off after a 2-2 draw with United (ah shit). But even with that we are a much different team. We run alot less for example; we are actually amongst the bottom teams for distance run and sprints whereas even last season we were amongst the top end, even though we scaled back compared to the heyday of gung-ho Kloppball. And Slot is far more conscientious in terms of substitutions from both a fitness and game-managing aspect, bringing on people like Endo to close a game with 15/20 minutes left repeatedly when one of Klopp's failings was not making subs at all. And then of course dealing with the contract situation for undoubtedly our three most important players, which to say the least has been distracting.

Good post, and this bit in particular, I keep saying that Slot has very sensibly toned down the heavy metal football to create something mroe sustainable - is it really a coincidence that this has allowed Salah and Van Dyke to get back to their very best? Plus the rest of the forward line with Diaz, Gakpo, Nunez (for all his misses, he's a real presence) and Jota is a force to be reckoned with even before you start talking about Salah.

Slot was hardly starting at ground zero but he's taken a team everyone was saying was clapped out and needing serious rejuvenation back to a very high level

[IBK]

I really don't disagree with much of what you have said, but is having a world class player admittedly in incredible form down to luck? Couldn't we then point to any good player on any team and discount what they are doing? Long term; Arsenal without Saka, Chelsea without Palmer etc. Fact is, for now at least we do have Salah and he's in unbelievable form but I don't put that down to luck. Plus, when we were without him last season for a chunk of 10 games or so, down to injury and AFCON our results stayed steady.

And I do think it is doing a disservice to what Slot has done at Liverpool this year. We were of course left in a fantastic position thanks to Klopp, given last season we weren't far away, except for a calamitous drop off after a 2-2 draw with United (ah shit). But even with that we are a much different team. We run alot less for example; we are actually amongst the bottom teams for distance run and sprints whereas even last season we were amongst the top end, even though we scaled back compared to the heyday of gung-ho Kloppball. And Slot is far more conscientious in terms of substitutions from both a fitness and game-managing aspect, bringing on people like Endo to close a game with 15/20 minutes left repeatedly when one of Klopp's failings was not making subs at all. And then of course dealing with the contract situation for undoubtedly our three most important players, which to say the least has been distracting.

And even with everything else, following Klopp absolutely nobody (myself included) though we'd even be in the conversation, regardless of City's drop off, so the sheer fact we are is surprising.

We've still had our fair share of injuries, with the likes of Alisson, Konate and Jota out for multiple weeks. Even squadies like Tsimikas, Elliott and Bradley have had weeks/months out, when they've been solid alternates or even better options. I'm not one to put things down to luck one way or the other, but you have had the bulk of your team fit for the whole of last season. Now that you are having injuries to the likes of Saka is that unlucky or a natural progression/consequence of previous years? We've had the same previously so it's not even a criticism per se, but naturally going 100% leads to a drop off somewhere along the line.

All that being said, and I think this is quoting another post somewhere, I actually do think we have massively dropped off form in the last few weeks, though it hasn't necessarily translated through to results yet. Defensively we are nowhere near as comfortable, which I do think has coincided with Konate's injury; but ultimately it's whether the drop off in play leads on to more dropped points (I think that will happen regardless) or we ride that out and our form picks up. With more games coming up more quickly I think that will lead to a natural drop (btw I think our performances in the cups and in Europe has been overlooked) which will therefore lead to more opportunities but I don't know if any team is strong enough to capitalise properly anyway.

Whilst I'm prattling on (and this isn't a direct reply to your post), I do think Saliba's red card was totally fair. The red for Rice was very harsh but equally he was a fucking idiot who gave another idiot the option to send him off. I always remember going back years now Mascherano being sent off for the one week answering back/arguing with the ref was an automatic red. The next week that rule was gone...

It is quite funny though how similar both of our seasons have been so far, compared to last year. And for the same reasons, both teams are sat here thinking we won't have to do the same again, and it will still be enough..... and City somehow still nick it by winning 11 on the bounce without anyone noticing.

Love the post mate. Don't get me wrong - I was not trying to argue that having an in form, incredible player is lucky in itself. It's all part and parcel of the game. The more subtle point I was making was that Slot (who has done an incredible job coming into your club - dont get me wrong) has benefitted from this factor outside anything tactical that he might have done. I would imagine that not even Liverpool fans saw the level of goals and assists that Salah has achieved since August. I don't follow Liverpool closely, but my impression is that Slot's 'genius' (if we want to put it this way), has been to have the lack of ego to see that he inherited an extremely strong team capable of challenging for the title, and been content to tweak this to make it more defensively resiliant/efficient (in the manner you have set out), and curb slightly the raw emotion that Klopp's incarnation showed - that ran out of steam in the end last of season.


I think that the assumption was that the task of a new manager coming in would see Liverpool drop off, and in this many commentators ignored the inherent strength and experience of your team. As you point out, a further mistake made was assuming that the drop off from last season was a general trend rather than something that could be arrested.


Coming back to Arsenal however, I do think it's fair to say that if (1) Odegard had not been out for 2 months - and playing to his ceiling like Salah has, or (2) Saka had not been injured on 21 December, we would not be 6 points behind you. I take what you are saying about injuries - all teams have them - but these 2 players are as important to us as Salah is to you. By way of an example - when Saliba got injured 2 seasons ago, that was our season done. It's key injuries that are the issue here. Alisson's injury did not derail you as Kellerher stepped up. Jota is am amazing player but with your strength in depth in the forward line and Salah's form, his absence was not really felt. Granted, Slot has managed Konate's absence well - we have done the same with Ben White; Zinchenko; Calafiori.


Key injuries are hurting us, and I emphasised that I think that there is a degree of negligence and naivity in our manager - and club in general - thinking that a depleted strength forward line would be able to get us to where we want to be this season. I acknowledged also that we lived a charmed life with injuries last season - and I agree with you that over playing certain players and not rotating is costing us now. It's ironic that the one player who has been most carefully managed - Nwaneri - is our latest crock.


As for refereeing decisions. I get it. We can debate these. They happen. What is difficult for Gooners to take is that the a number of the decisions that have directly led to dropped points have been made against us, but noone else. Despite this, I don't think that we can 'blame' decisions for our mediocre form - acquisition and management of player resources is a bigger factor - but when it comes to our own fans with knives out for Arteta, it is IMO fair to offer up our treatment by POGMOL in mitigation.

[Mac76]

Zinchenko

Both in terms of the quality of the player and also what he stamds for in terms of how the team has set up with him in it, this is the worst signing at Arsenal since Mustafi.

[Mac76]

Yet you berated me when I expressed frustration about it on countless occasions

I think I just indicated you were getting a bit over the top about it, that said it's maybe taken me longer to appreciate how much he offers when in midfield atm, and how we lose without it

[IBK]

Both in terms of the quality of the player and also what he stamds for in terms of how the team has set up with him in it, this is the worst signing at Arsenal since Mustafi.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I think that this is nonsense. Even if you think (I don't) that his signing was a disaster, to suggest that he was a worse signing than Willian; Soares; Ceballos (to name players we depended on - there are many more utter duds) etc IMO betrays unjustified bias. I'm not denying his defensive weakness and lapses in concentration but for a lot of his time his technical ability and ball-playing skills have been key for Arsenal's build-up play, and to focus on the downsides while ignoring the benefits of the player simply fits the scapegoat narrative. I will be roasted on here for defending a player who has become a chosen lightening rod - just like I was with Xhaka - but I don't really care about following the crowd.