When will Arteta be sacked by

[IBK]

I haven't posted on here in a while due to work committments etc, but I just wanted to come back and post and take back some of my words. Since the turn of the year in PL our results and form has been really special. Whatever happens this season I can't really fault Arteta or even the players for the perfomances and results they are delivering right now at this crucial point in the season.

I realise there is a way to go, but this team seems to be peaking at the right now, the quality, the organisation, the application, the fight, it's all their. Not only that but it's the first time since the peak "Wenger years" where I am starting to believe this team is capable of producing something very special.

Arteta is building something very special right before our eyes, this is no flash in the pan, he delivering a proper project and I certainly trust the process.

Hi Mate. Nice to see you on here.

Firstly its good to see someone who is prepared to revise his view, rather than sticking to the same line.

When it comes to football, it is entirely appropriate that opinions should change according to performances on the pitch. What is clear to me is that Arteta has a gift for seeing things that fans certainly and many other managers don't.

For all the Arteta doubters, and I include myself at times since he joined our club, the following are clear and obvious signs of his talent:

- Spotting qualities in players that work with his collective vision. Individually, the likes of Havertz; Raya and Jorghino stand out here (and Kiwior gets a special mention too). We as fans were underwhelmed with all of these players, yet certainly the first 3 have become first team essentials in a system that is the best, and most fluid in the league. The fact that we are not missing Jesus and Partey, who would have been the first players on the teamsheet only months ago is incredible. Our performances with our first 3 choices at left back (Zin, Tomiyasu and Timber) out, and the fact that at the same time we have improved in both attack and defence is extraordinary. Arteta sees things that most others don't. This includes identifying players with the smarts to understand a very complex system.

- Instilling self belief in his team. It is self evident that our players now believe that they can win the league, and trust Arteta's system implicitly. You don't get performances that we have been putting in since the start of the year without this - and he has achieved 100% buy in. We can now see the reasons why the manager ditched players who were popular with fans, yet didn't show the comittment to the cause. You genuinely get the feeling that players coming in are desperate to join the party, and that we fear no one. Beating Liverpool and City, and putting formerly tricky opponents such as Newcastle and West Ham to the sword recently is testimony to this. Last season I feel that we feared trips to Anfield; The Etihad and the Shithole. i just don't think we do any more.

- Learning and developing on from past mistakes. When I and others criticised our manager for sterile performances earlier in the season, and lamented unproductive control this was justified. Now we see that control has become domination, and familiarity with the roles they are expected to perform has meant that players are seeing the fruits of this process. We all know that Arteta is still relatively inexperienced, and this still shows at times (eg our game in Porto) - but the manager's development of this team - particularly since the winter break - shows a vision and adaptablility that I think has been under-appreciated. I genuinely don;t really understand how the manager has achieved this, but we seem to be peaking at just the right time - a time when we were about to fall off last seaon. This takes considerable talent, IMO.

This is not just recency bias. It is greater appreciation of the manager's plan. Yes we have had a relatively easy run of results, but by the same token we have shown indisputably that our result at home against the league leaders was not a one off, and that we are evolving into a special team.

Will we win the league? Quite possibly not. Does Arteta need top silverware to cement his burgeoning reputation? Of course. But I fail to see how the views of those who do not think that Arteta has shown that he can become a truly exceptional manager are justified in the light of what we are seeing. For me, he has shown us clearly that we should trust the process, and I would not swap Arteta for anyone else at this moment in time.

[Mac76]

@IBK, yes I've been thinking exactly this lately, I was criticising him a lot for being stubborn and having favourites, but partly through accident and partly by design he is learning to use other players and tactics. Sorting out our set pieces has also been a huge plus although i still don't understand why it took a training cmp in Dubai to do it -how long has that coach been at Arsenal - at least one and a half seasons?

Anyway as you say he needs silverware but has built a strong young team which, if they can get something big over the line soon (and by big i mean CL or PL), will I think go on to be a really dmoninant force

[HCZ_Reborn]

So I’m going to take your arguments one by one, mainly because I think you’re without doubt the person on here who most frequently makes arguments in good faith. However I’m not especially convinced that you calling your arguments self-evident makes them so, and in my view too many people use such terms rhetorically


- Spotting qualities in players that work with his collective vision. Individually, the likes of Havertz; Raya and Jorghino stand out here (and Kiwior gets a special mention too).


I’m not entirely sure this is necessarily conducive to success. Managers can of course have their own style they want to play and want to get players they think best suited to that style. However this in turn can make the team one dimensional, and as I stated originally whilst I give credit to Arteta for incorporating set piece routines into our play to break through the deep block. It’s a result of a stubborn even myopic way of wanting the game to be played that required this intervention. And it’s not without its drawbacks, albeit via shithousing as you put it Porto were able to nullify it.

I also think there’s a danger of making luxury signings at the expense of getting in players in positions where we require them. Whilst there’s no question now that Havertz for all his imperfections and idiosyncrasies looks a better player with us than he was at Chelsea (and I say this as someone who whilst not a fan of the signing, always liked him as a player) I think there’s no doubt that this wasn’t a signing we needed to make. I would say the same with Raya, I like his distribution but I think we’ve sacrificed what is overall a better keeper in Ramsdale.

- Instilling self belief in his team. It is self evident that our players now believe that they can win the league



I think even being generous this is at best an untested assertion. I’d in fact argue that we had three tests away from home this season - Newcastle, Aston Villa and Liverpool. And we failed two out three of those tests, we simply can’t blame a rum referring decision against Newcastle because we created nothing, Villa is the worst of all because we had them on the ropes, absolutely there for the taking but could not deliver the knockout blow.
Liverpool was actually a largely sedate game, people talk about the chances Liverpool had but I don’t think they had all that many, and in many respects we were as wasteful. But yeah albeit a December game rather than a title deciding fixture, we looked far more composed and less intimidated than we did the previous April. But in my view we will only know if that mentality is really a thing if we can produce when it matters.

- Learning and developing on from past mistakes


He has learned from some mistakes, others not so much. I think Arteta still is very bad at rotating the squad. When you consider the amount of games Saliba, Rice and Saka have played this season….theres a very real risk of them breaking down . On top of that, it also means squad players who may be moved on in the summer are deprived of game time by which we can get more money for them. A player like Smith- Rowe for instance, there’s been scope to start him and not simply bring him off the bench.

I genuinely thought Arteta had to show he’d learned in the transfer market, but in my view last summer was a disappointment. Take away whether I think Rice or Havertz have been worth the money…it comes back to my view of luxury signings. When you look at the areas where Arteta has signed the most players its defenders, he seems unable to go a season without buying new ones and jettisoning those he himself has previously bought in. And I say that’s luxury because it’s clear the priority is in other areas of the pitch.

The modern game is unforgiving, we simply don’t have the ability to give Arteta the time he feels he needs to realise what most of us saw some time previously. And no I don’t think it’s because he’s lacking in intelligence or perception. It’s because he’s stubborn and galaxy brained and often thinks he can do things that defy convention because he regards himself as an innovator.

There’s nothing wrong with being an innovator but it’s far less important than being a pragmatist and being flexible.

[Mac76]

@hcz I'd have said all of that pretty much, about 6 months ago, but I do think he's learnt.

Yes he could give other players nore game time and agree ESR could've had a start here and there. But subbing at Saka at HT, knowing we've three games in 8-9 days, at least showed he's able to think more strategically about how we use plyaers (and yes it's taken him too long to learn)

also I think we mustn't lose sight of the fact he wanted to buy Mudryk ahead of all of Trossard, Jorg and Kiwior - take those three players away now and we'd be severely lacking in options

Havertz does look like a luxery and we certainly overpaid for him by some way, but he is now proving very useful, notwithstanding we always have to ask who else we could have got for that money

I do think Arteta values the right attitude highly and he clearly thinks Havertz has it, also he got a player who knew the PL - it worked with Rice straight away, it didn't initially work with Havertz but he's growing into it, the main issue is so much poor finishing (albeit his goal yesterady was a good strike)

overall, probably the main reason i feel more positive about us atm is simply the lack of Zin who, as is well documented, is a huge annoyance to me - I really hope Arteta is realising how well we are playing without him, in a more direct way and not giving the ball away so often - i felt that, before Tomi got injured, Arteta had at lesat realised Tomi was a better option than Zin for some games - i am hoping he will go further and realise Zin is a bench player at best, though tbh i struggle to work out when he's worth it even from the bench - if we're winning he could well ship a goal, if we're losing he will slow our attacking play down

[HCZ_Reborn]

I simply don’t think that there has been a sizeable number of games that give me sufficient evidence of learning.

The fact is that we have a run of seven games won in a row last season. Now we haven’t scored 31 goals in those games but we did score 23. And we didn’t play two of the worst teams ever to play in the premier league. Now of course you can only beat who you’re up against but whilst things have been favourable in the PL, there’s much that could cause the kind of rot we’ve seen countless times before.

Assuming we win the next two games, and whilst that’s not a watertight assumption it’s a reasonable one in that there’s no reason why we shouldn’t. We don’t play again for 2-3 weeks until we play city, not the most desirable of preparation for City away…you can argue the players are rested but are they when many are on international duty. That’s by the by because Arteta isn’t responsible for fixture scheduling. There’s talk of him arranging a friendly both to keep the players fresh and to allow Jurrien Timber to play a non competitive fixture in order to reacclimate

Now all of this is a good idea for sure, but the proof is in the eating. Not just how we do in that game but the effect it may have as a knock on.

In just over two weeks from the city game, we’d have to play three league fixtures and if we get past Porto a quarter final champions league tie and after the second leg of the quarter final we have back to back games away at Wolves and away at Spurs.

So between March 31st and April 27th, there are a fuck load of bear traps to navigate. If we navigate them well, we could go into May only having one away game left to play and our first semi final of the European cup in 15 years.

However historically the evidence is we step into the first bear trap and we are so shocked by this we hobble around in distress blithely walking into the next one.

By bear traps I don’t just mean fixtures but potential for injury, suspension etc

[Mac76]

@hcz, I don't see how any of it proves whether Arteta is a good manager or not, all i can do is look at a team where individuals like Havertz are improving, Kiwior has fitted in well and we now have Jesus, Partey (although for how long is a different matter) coming back and giving us more depth - as you say there be some intense runs of games so that will really help.

Also where things have gone wrong for us ths season we have picked it up relatively quickly again

IMO the main thing Arteta has got wrong recently is that ridiculous situation with Gabriel at the start of the season, which almost certainly lost us points and was in my view, whatever anyone says, caused entirely by Arteta having a personality problem - however he realised he'd broken up the best CB partnership in the PL and corrected his error - let's hope he learnt from that

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well with Gabriel there was talk of selling him that was even discussed by Arteta in press conferences, where he more or less said he didn’t know whether the player would still be here because the club would make that call.

We know Arteta for sure has had fallings out with players, but there’s a bit of when you’re a hammer everything looks like it’s a nail. I think you’ll find that we struggle with purchases in the summer and that any substantive purchase will be based on selling players. There was interest in Gabriel and the Saudi leagues transfer window closed after ours.


Now for sure Arteta’s lineup at the beginning of the season was Galaxy brained, still for the life of me not sure what he was trying to achieve. It was motivated for sure by looking at assembling a team without Gabriel in it in case he was sold, but I don’t think Arteta particularly wanted to sell him….plus Gabriel came on as a sub in two of the first three games and the only reason he didn’t come on in the third (Fulham at home) was because we brought on a load of attacking players because we were chasing the game for long periods. Just don’t see that happening if Arteta wanted him gone.

However, at the same time I don’t think it would necessarily be a bad thing occasionally going forward to split up the partnership every once in a while. Have White and Gabriel together, Saliba and Kiwior…simply because if one of Saliba or Gabriel get injured…you have a backup centre back pairing that has played together.


Given Saliba’s long injury last season , given Gabriel came off injured back in January…we have been very lucky to be able to play them week in week out.

[HCZ_Reborn]

@hcz, I don't see how any of it proves whether Arteta is a good manager or not, all i can do is look at a team where individuals like Havertz are improving, Kiwior has fitted in well and we now have Jesus, Partey (although for how long is a different matter) coming back and giving us more depth - as you say there be some intense runs of games so that will really help.

Also where things have gone wrong for us ths season we have picked it up relatively quickly again

IMO the main thing Arteta has got wrong recently is that ridiculous situation with Gabriel at the start of the season, which almost certainly lost us points and was in my view, whatever anyone says, caused entirely by Arteta having a personality problem - however he realised he'd broken up the best CB partnership in the PL and corrected his error - let's hope he learnt from that

One individual bad result on its own is unless the players look totally poorly set up is not so much on the coach I agree, you can only do so much preparation and in game management…ultimately the players will produce or they won’t. But last season, the season before and the season before that are all littered with examples of poor runs


I would argue we did have quite a sustained run of poor results from December into January

We won one game from seven between 9th December and 7th January…scoring only five goals in that period

That’s exactly the kind of collapse, that not only do I fear happening but that I think is highly possible will happen in April.


Because lack of goals? Possibly, Because of defensive injury? Also possible


Would love to be wrong, but whenever I’ve waited for the other shoe to drop in the past…it hasn’t failed to do so.


Where I’ve been wrong is predicting catastrophe rather than just a fizzle out


I don’t think it will be as heinous as last season because a) I don’t think any of us is expecting we will win the league or the European cup b) It’s not even up to us whether we win the league…the way it was last season

[IBK]

OK so I'll respond to your points specifically below, but generally while I understand that you remain to be convinced of substantive progress under Arteta, I think that pointing out his undoubted shortcomings (all the best managers have some), and disappointing results in certain games willfully ignores the undoubted progress Arteta has made, in order to double down on your viewpoint. I am not saying he is perfect, and pointed out his inexperience that of itself is a obvious concession that he still has much to learn, but we can see - both from the team's performances and the underlying data - that there seems to be a positive evolution in our team.

So I’m going to take your arguments one by one, mainly because I think you’re without doubt the person on here who most frequently makes arguments in good faith. However I’m not especially convinced that you calling your arguments self-evident makes them so, and in my view too many people use such terms rhetorically


- Spotting qualities in players that work with his collective vision. Individually, the likes of Havertz; Raya and Jorghino stand out here (and Kiwior gets a special mention too).

I’m not entirely sure this is necessarily conducive to success. Managers can of course have their own style they want to play and want to get players they think best suited to that style. However this in turn can make the team one dimensional, and as I stated originally whilst I give credit to Arteta for incorporating set piece routines into our play to break through the deep block. It’s a result of a stubborn even myopic way of wanting the game to be played that required this intervention. And it’s not without its drawbacks, albeit via shithousing as you put it Porto were able to nullify it.[/B]

I think that being one dimensional is the last criticism you could make of our current team. We have achieved the best balance of attack and defence in the EPL so far this season (we are the top team in terms of defence and only 1 goal behind Liverpool in second in terms of attack). We have added set pieces to our game, and are far and away the league leaders for set peice goals. We have interchangeable players and positions; have slotted players with different skill sets in and out of key positions and Arteta has managed his team around potential weaknesses, such as playign Havertz often in 3 positions during a game, and inverting on the right when Kiwior has come in at LB. We have looked ineffective at times against low blocks, but lately this issue has been more than rectified (the majority of teams we have played recently will clearly have wanted to try to contain us, but we simply didn't allow them to). Even at Porto, we adapted our game plan for stability and while we did not have the same attacking intent against a team that set out to spoil and was incredibly conservative playing out, we should have achieved a decent away draw but for a moment of inexperience. This is not a one dimeensional team.

I'm afraid I fail to understand how spotting and developing player qualities that makes the collective better cannot be regarded as a clear sign of managerial talent. You say that this is not conducive to success. I say that ths is rather reductive. What you appear to be arguing is that managerial talent equates only to success. While I have agreed that only by winning the top competitions will Arteta deserve to be regarded as one of the best, this does not detract from the fact that he has shown undoubted talent in moulding a team that is doing what we wanted it to do for years - being competetive and in with a shout of the league. In doing this he has been innovative and insightful, and proved the detractors of a number of his signings misguided. This will not change if we fail to win the league or the CL.

I and most observers do not agree that we have sacrificed better players in getting to where we are currently. I believe that Arteta has been single minded in promoting players who have shown their worth. I was and remain a Ramsdale fan, but we look generally a more 'grown up' and consistent team than we were last season, in which our early success was built more on emotion but we were prone to self-harm in conceding goals, and this was exemplified by Ramsdale.

I also think there’s a danger of making luxury signings at the expense of getting in players in positions where we require them. Whilst there’s no question now that Havertz for all his imperfections and idiosyncrasies looks a better player with us than he was at Chelsea (and I say this as someone who whilst not a fan of the signing, always liked him as a player) I think there’s no doubt that this wasn’t a signing we needed to make. I would say the same with Raya, I like his distribution but I think we’ve sacrificed what is overall a better keeper in Ramsdale.

Your argument would have been more justified earlier in the season where we looked goal shy, but I find it difficult to identify what 'luxury signings' this team is carrying right now. I think Arteta's skills are actually evidenced by the fact that we no longer look bereft of players in key positions. I would concede that this will be tested if we have injuries to Saka and Martinelli, but given the strength of the team currently, Jesus could deputise on either wing. Again, the team's stats bear out this point.

- Instilling self belief in his team. It is self evident that our players now believe that they can win the league



I think even being generous this is at best an untested assertion. I’d in fact argue that we had three tests away from home this season - Newcastle, Aston Villa and Liverpool. And we failed two out three of those tests, we simply can’t blame a rum referring decision against Newcastle because we created nothing, Villa is the worst of all because we had them on the ropes, absolutely there for the taking but could not deliver the knockout blow.
Liverpool was actually a largely sedate game, people talk about the chances Liverpool had but I don’t think they had all that many, and in many respects we were as wasteful. But yeah albeit a December game rather than a title deciding fixture, we looked far more composed and less intimidated than we did the previous April. But in my view we will only know if that mentality is really a thing if we can produce when it matters.

I'm afraid that your points do not support your dismissal of my point. The majority of football opinions are untested assertions in an empirical sense - particularly when it comes to self belief. However there is also the eye test, and it is a truism that teams play better when they are confident and have self belief. For me the manner in which we are now playing is testament to self-belief and players' confidence in each other. You don't get our extraordinary recent results without it. Nor do you bounce back from a misrable late december and early January with our current run, or put 4 past Newcastle after a sickener in Portugal. The poor results that you have referred to are not indicative of a lack of self-belief, they are simply poor results. In any event, why should these results rather than the effervescence we have shown in 2024 speak to the manager's ability to motivate and inspire his team? Most people would say that one of Klopp's or Guardiola's skills is to instill their teams with self-belief. So why is it different for the manager of the team that is matching them this season?

He has learned from some mistakes, others not so much. I think Arteta still is very bad at rotating the squad. When you consider the amount of games Saliba, Rice and Saka have played this season….theres a very real risk of them breaking down . On top of that, it also means squad players who may be moved on in the summer are deprived of game time by which we can get more money for them. A player like Smith- Rowe for instance, there’s been scope to start him and not simply bring him off the bench.

I do not think it is a manger's job to make money on players. And neither do I think that not giving certain fringe players game time is evidence of an inability to learn from past mistakes. Ther isn't a football fan on earth who does not think that certain unused players should be given a chance. That opinion does not equate to a manager not learning or developing, it is mostly simply a personal preference. Whether by accident or design, Arteta has used quite a few fringe players to good effect this season. I agree that he hasn't rotated Rice; Saka; Saliba or Big Gabi but that does not necessarily mean that he hasn't learnt from past mistakes. Apart from Saliba (with a specific back issue that seems to have been resolved), to my knowledge all the other mentioned players have decent injury records. The manager would be criticised for not fielding his best players if they are fit, but then dropping points, so it is largely a question of risk/reward. Besides - our caution with Partey; Tomi; Jesus; Vieira is a step change from pervious seasons, and why not look at this of evidence of learning from past mistakes? I think that the general structure; stability and flexibility of this team is a significant improvement of the 'vibes' of last season that of itself shows development and growing maturity - both in the manager and his players. The progression will never be linear, but I think it is churlish to deny this.

I genuinely thought Arteta had to show he’d learned in the transfer market, but in my view last summer was a disappointment. Take away whether I think Rice or Havertz have been worth the money…it comes back to my view of luxury signings. When you look at the areas where Arteta has signed the most players its defenders, he seems unable to go a season without buying new ones and jettisoning those he himself has previously bought in. And I say that’s luxury because it’s clear the priority is in other areas of the pitch.

You are kidding me here? Havertz; Timber; Rice; Raya. Timber looked team changing in the brief glimpse we had; Rice has been transformative and noone is questioning his transfer fee; Havertz is beginning to look like excellent business, and Raya is making this team tick going forwards while being GK for the team that has conceded fewest goals in the EPL. Where are the luxury signings you refer to? OK we didn't sign a winger or a striker, but we are not a nation state team, and the allocation of resources is not doing us badly!

The modern game is unforgiving, we simply don’t have the ability to give Arteta the time he feels he needs to realise what most of us saw some time previously. And no I don’t think it’s because he’s lacking in intelligence or perception. It’s because he’s stubborn and galaxy brained and often thinks he can do things that defy convention because he regards himself as an innovator.

There’s nothing wrong with being an innovator but it’s far less important than being a pragmatist and being flexible.

The question is who would be better for our team than Arteta. And here we come up against the usual problem. Fans compare reality to fantasy - as though there is always a manager who could come in and achieve immediate success. This doesn't exist. Do you really think - based on us finishing second last season and keeping pace with the juggernauts that are Liverpool and City (and possibly the 2 best managers in world football), Arteta has not earned the right to continue his project? if so I am glad you are not in charge at the club

[HCZ_Reborn]

To answer your points in reverse order, I think spending the money Arteta has spent affords him very little in the way of Rights, it instead shifts expectation onto him….this is not just my view, this will be the view of the club’s hierarchy. Now I don’t know if their expectations are the same as mine, there’s obviously a discrepancy in the timetable. But more so, the reason I’d move Arteta on is not because of what he’s not achieved but of where he has failed to convince me that he can achieve.

Talking about the run of results we are on which you’ve called extraordinary, which has little function other than as a superlative. In fact there’s little extraordinary about the results, 2023 February/March/April yielded a similar run of results (7 wins), the year before that we won six out of seven between February and March of 2022.

Both seasons rendered an April foundering, and I operate under the assumption that it will happen again. And whatever tactical tweaks that Arteta has brought about both in playing style and playing personnel have at best kept us in a holding pattern.

Now if April turns out not to be a disaster, if Raya faces sustained pressure on his goal and doesn’t shit the bed, if one of Gabriel or Saliba or Rice doesn’t get injured, if we don’t suffer a hangover where one undesirable results drags into two or three losses in a row, if we put ourselves in May where we are give or take largely where we are now in terms of our proximity to City and Liverpool.


Then I’m more than happy to reassess


What I’m saying in essence is we don’t need silverware this season, what I require is evidence that we don’t wilt when it comes to the business end of a season

And if we do (which I think we will) I think it’s only reasonable to give someone else a chance to shape the team according to their vision

Do I expect the board will do this ? No