When will Arteta be sacked by

[IBK]

To answer your points in reverse order, I think spending the money Arteta has spent affords him very little in the way of Rights, it instead shifts expectation onto him….this is not just my view, this will be the view of the club’s hierarchy. Now I don’t know if their expectations are the same as mine, there’s obviously a discrepancy in the timetable. But more so, the reason I’d move Arteta on is not because of what he’s not achieved but of where he has failed to convince me that he can achieve.

Talking about the run of results we are on which you’ve called extraordinary, which has little function other than as a superlative. In fact there’s little extraordinary about the results, 2023 February/March/April yielded a similar run of results (7 wins), the year before that we won six out of seven between February and March of 2022.

Both seasons rendered an April foundering, and I operate under the assumption that it will happen again. And whatever tactical tweaks that Arteta has brought about both in playing style and playing personnel have at best kept us in a holding pattern.

Now if April turns out not to be a disaster, if Raya faces sustained pressure on his goal and doesn’t shit the bed, if one of Gabriel or Saliba or Rice doesn’t get injured, if we don’t suffer a hangover where one undesirable results drags into two or three losses in a row, if we put ourselves in May where we are give or take largely where we are now in terms of our proximity to City and Liverpool.


Then I’m more than happy to reassess


What I’m saying in essence is we don’t need silverware this season, what I require is evidence that we don’t wilt when it comes to the business end of a season

And if we do (which I think we will) I think it’s only reasonable to give someone else a chance to shape the team according to their vision

Do I expect the board will do this ? No

You do tend to focus on language used to play down an argument. But in the case of our extraordinary results/performances in 2024, I don't think your observation is correct. This run has given Arteta's team:

- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- Status as the first team in Premier League history to win by five or more goals for three consecutive away games.
- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- More different scorers in the period than any other team.
- Most goals scored after 27 league games than Arsenal have ever scored (and 5 more than we had scored in our blue period last season).

I'd say that justifies my description, that is further enhanced by the fact that our run has come after an early season where some (including me) said we had gone backwards; and after it looked like the wheels were coming off in late December/early January.

I also don't think Arteta has us in a holding pattern. League results alone suggest otherwise. 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd before this season is clear evidence of progress.

I take your point (and agree) that a late season collapse will call this into question, but my OP referred to the evidence we have seen of Arteta's talent - and I think we have seen this. We have also, IMO seen an identity; a plan and a process - more evident this season than last. While its easy to be wise after the event, on current evidence faith in Areta is justified.

[Mac76]

I don't think we will collapse at the end of this season, we have players like Partey and Jesus coming back from injury which adds to squad depth

I think Arteta is learning to rest some players and give others more minutes - he even took Saka off at HT on MOnday.

And i think the team has last year's experiences to draw on

none of that means we will win anything, but i don't think we will capitulate like last year

[WMUG]

Last year's collapse was purely down to Saliba and Tomiyasu getting injured against Sporting, causing us to have to play Holding for the run in.

Without that, I don't think there's any question of us not winning the league.

Barring a similar catastrophe this year, we have to be in with a shout.

[Marc Overmars]

Last year's collapse was purely down to Saliba and Tomiyasu getting injured against Sporting, causing us to have to play Holding for the run in.

Without that, I don't think there's any question of us not winning the league.

Barring a similar catastrophe this year, we have to be in with a shout.

I think with Saliba we definitely would have taken it to the end. Another issue though was probably how chaotic we were making games, going life and death for points is going to catch up with you eventually and that’s what happened. This season I think there’s definitely a lot more maturity in limiting how opponents are able to attack us. It came at a cost of our forward play being very stodgy in the first part of the season but now everyone has found their scoring boots it’s starting to look very polished.

I don’t anticipate a collapse like last season, I’m just of the opinion that we are likely to get 1 or 2 more bum results than Liverpool and City in the final stretch which will make it too difficult for us to stay on top should we find ourselves out in front.

I’m comfortable with us being an outside bet though as we all know that whatever incarnation of Arsenal there’s been for 20 years, struggling to deal with the pressure and weight of expectation has always been an underlying issue.

[Mac76]

Turns out Saka was a little ill on Monday, so the sub wasn't as strategic as i was giving Arteta credit for, in fact you could ask why he even played, if ill, against such a poor side where we didn't need him

[HCZ_Reborn]

You do tend to focus on language used to play down an argument. But in the case of our extraordinary results/performances in 2024, I don't think your observation is correct. This run has given Arteta's team:

- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- Status as the first team in Premier League history to win by five or more goals for three consecutive away games.
- The best scoring run of any team in Premier League history over seven consecutive games in the same season.
- More different scorers in the period than any other team.
- Most goals scored after 27 league games than Arsenal have ever scored (and 5 more than we had scored in our blue period last season).

I'd say that justifies my description, that is further enhanced by the fact that our run has come after an early season where some (including me) said we had gone backwards; and after it looked like the wheels were coming off in late December/early January.

I also don't think Arteta has us in a holding pattern. League results alone suggest otherwise. 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd before this season is clear evidence of progress.

I take your point (and agree) that a late season collapse will call this into question, but my OP referred to the evidence we have seen of Arteta's talent - and I think we have seen this. We have also, IMO seen an identity; a plan and a process - more evident this season than last. While its easy to be wise after the event, on current evidence faith in Areta is justified.

I’m sorry if I appear to be being unfair to you but I think you’re in danger of conflating statistics with achievements. The run of seven wins that we racked up last season amounted to 21 goals (which is still three goals in a game). And all statistics tend to be free of the caveats behind them. This caveat is that 11 of the goals we’ve scored have come against two of the worst teams in premier league history who have long ago abandoned any hope of premier league survival, now of course goals don’t count any less no matter who you score them against (and nor should they). And nor is it any poor reflection on us, in both the Burnley and Sheffield United games we took a totally professional attitude in order to bolster our goal difference.
If I appear to be singling out words, it’s because I think it’s important to understand how despite us both having the same broad definition of a word, how our perception of how it does or does not apply to Arsenal currently differs.

For example, if Arsenal were to win the European cup….you would think it an extraordinary achievement, I’d think it was a good one. You’re not incorrect to call it extraordinary because it differs in the sense that we as a club have not won this competition before. However the way I look at it, it’s not extraordinary because it would be line with the model of Chelsea and Manchester City spending money in order to attain this prestigious silverware.


But I think this could go on forever. It’s not like I think you’re being unreasonable, I’m largely trying to provide rationale for why I don’t think I’m being unreasonable


Anyway to precise my argument, there has been nothing in this run of good results that I’ve not seen before. I’ve enjoyed it but I’m forever waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I think in my mind the only unsettled question is not the if but the when.

I do think we will beat Brentford and overturn the deficit against Porto and make the 1/4 finals but ironically I think the latter may be part of precipitating the collapse that I see as likely (history doesn’t repeat but it rhymes)

Now of course this then leads us back to how we consider certain words. Mac I think it was stated that we hadn’t had a collapse this season, my contention is that we have (the one win in seven run over December into January)

My contention is that Arteta’s reign at Arsenal is characterised by the peaks and troughs that we experience under him. If I see evidence in April that these are at an end and we can perform with sustained consistency (the kind Liverpool showed between 2018 and 2020) then I’m open to changing my mind. If not well as I say it’s my view we give someone else a go

[HCZ_Reborn]

Turns out Saka was a little ill on Monday, so the sub wasn't as strategic as i was giving Arteta credit for, in fact you could ask why he even played, if ill, against such a poor side where we didn't need him

Little ill ? Two bob bits ?

Happens to the best of us

On the subject of Saka, I see we’ve been linked with Raphinia again. I have to say I wouldn’t be adverse to that, he’d be a good backup option for Saka if he’s in need of being rested.

[IBK]

I’m sorry if I appear to be being unfair to you but I think you’re in danger of conflating statistics with achievements. The run of seven wins that we racked up last season amounted to 21 goals (which is still three goals in a game). And all statistics tend to be free of the caveats behind them. This caveat is that 11 of the goals we’ve scored have come against two of the worst teams in premier league history who have long ago abandoned any hope of premier league survival, now of course goals don’t count any less no matter who you score them against (and nor should they). And nor is it any poor reflection on us, in both the Burnley and Sheffield United games we took a totally professional attitude in order to bolster our goal difference.
If I appear to be singling out words, it’s because I think it’s important to understand how despite us both having the same broad definition of a word, how our perception of how it does or does not apply to Arsenal currently differs.

For example, if Arsenal were to win the European cup….you would think it an extraordinary achievement, I’d think it was a good one. You’re not incorrect to call it extraordinary because it differs in the sense that we as a club have not won this competition before. However the way I look at it, it’s not extraordinary because it would be line with the model of Chelsea and Manchester City spending money in order to attain this prestigious silverware.


But I think this could go on forever. It’s not like I think you’re being unreasonable, I’m largely trying to provide rationale for why I don’t think I’m being unreasonable


Anyway to precise my argument, there has been nothing in this run of good results that I’ve not seen before. I’ve enjoyed it but I’m forever waiting for the other shoe to drop, and I think in my mind the only unsettled question is not the if but the when.

I do think we will beat Brentford and overturn the deficit against Porto and make the 1/4 finals but ironically I think the latter may be part of precipitating the collapse that I see as likely (history doesn’t repeat but it rhymes)

Now of course this then leads us back to how we consider certain words. Mac I think it was stated that we hadn’t had a collapse this season, my contention is that we have (the one win in seven run over December into January)

My contention is that Arteta’s reign at Arsenal is characterised by the peaks and troughs that we experience under him. If I see evidence in April that these are at an end and we can perform with sustained consistency (the kind Liverpool showed between 2018 and 2020) then I’m open to changing my mind. If not well as I say it’s my view we give someone else a go

Fair enough. I'm bored with this now and I don't have to be right. I think it is clear that our manager has transformed our team to one that we haven't seen in 20 years. But if you disagree that's cool.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I think with Saliba we definitely would have taken it to the end. Another issue though was probably how chaotic we were making games, going life and death for points is going to catch up with you eventually and that’s what happened. This season I think there’s definitely a lot more maturity in limiting how opponents are able to attack us. It came at a cost of our forward play being very stodgy in the first part of the season but now everyone has found their scoring boots it’s starting to look very polished.

I don’t anticipate a collapse like last season, I’m just of the opinion that we are likely to get 1 or 2 more bum results than Liverpool and City in the final stretch which will make it too difficult for us to stay on top should we find ourselves out in front.

I’m comfortable with us being an outside bet though as we all know that whatever incarnation of Arsenal there’s been for 20 years, struggling to deal with the pressure and weight of expectation has always been an underlying issue.

1 or 2 bum results you’re right would not represent a collapse


But there is the potential of playing a quarter final and maybe even semi final of the Champions league tie alongside league fixtures


Say we make the quarters


We would play City away on Easter Sunday, Luton at home three days later, Brighton away Saturday evening, Then the first leg of the 1/4 finals before playing Villa and then the second leg before back to back away matches at Wolves and Spurs

Luton aside…no easy games there to bolster our goal difference. Just a lot of potential bear traps. That nothing I’ve seen so far this season has given me belief that we are able to contend with.


So my proposition is simple


If come May 1st, we are in contention for both the league and the European cup. I think we will have done exceptionally well

Contention means reaching the semi finals of UCL, and being in no more than around 2-4 points off top spot


If we are in contention for one of those things, we’ve done quite well


If as I suspect we will resemble a burst tyre, then I see no reason to believe why my opinion that we should move Arteta on is either harsh or precipitous

[Mac76]

If as I suspect we will resemble a burst tyre, then I see no reason to believe why my opinion that we should move Arteta on is either harsh or precipitous

Why would it be his fault though?

OK, if when Zin recovers Arteta brings him back in and plays him in every game then i will blame him for a monumental error, but if he picks the best sides available to him, including a bit of regular rotation, and alters his tactics appropriately and the players put in performances which show a real drive to win, then succeed or fail I'm not sure he will be too much to blame

Last season we suffered from his not rotating and the players getting tired/losing their nerve, this season may be different - we'll see but we're already looking better than previously which is the point we're all making to you

Citeh away will be a real test - if we can just get a draw it would be huge, especially if Citeh and Liverpool draw this weekend and we beat Brentford (which we absolutely should)