This Weekend's Fixtures & Midweek Fixtures (20/21/23/24/25 Apr)

[HCZ_Reborn]

Unnecessarily

Dude, this is football. It's a competitive sport. You know the other team are trying to win too, right? Sometimes you're just not going to win a game. We really weren't that bad against Villa. Arteta clearly set us up to blitz them early and win it by half time. We had our chances but it didn't quite happen. There are very fine lines in football. Second half we were poor, but Villa aren't some cloggers we should be thumping. After the top 3 they're probably next best.

Your "minimum expectations" are virtual perfection. And, again. Early season you were saying we wouldn't be in a title race. The first wobble we had I'm pretty sure you were saying Top 4 wasn't assured. You massively overreact to the slightest setback. I arguably underreact, but my main thing this year is I've seen progress. That is surely not in dispute. We've passed plenty of tests this season which we failed last year. If that progress isn't enough to win the title then I can live with that, but changing manager while we are heading in the right direction under them is a crazy thing to do.

No not virtual perfection at all. They were the expectation that we would be still in the title race or in the champions league by 1st May.

It was unnecessary because it was self inflicted with a poorly chosen line up, I choose my words carefully.


As I’ve said only twice in the last twenty years has a team won the title with less than 85 points. We got 84 last season, so I don’t believe this whole Man City cheat code applies to us.

We didn’t deserve the title last season because of the collapse in the last ten games. Minus the Villa game our form in 2024 has been near on title winning form but it’s not unreasonable to expect that we keep it going till the end of the season.

We need to do our part, to get the amount of points a team would on average get if it wins the title…if that’s not enough to beat City so be it but it’s a reasonable expectation of progress

[Letters]

No not virtual perfection at all.

You lost your shit after the first PL loss of 2024, prior to which we'd won every game but 1 - the one being a creditable result away at City.

They were the expectation that we would be still in the title race or in the champions league by 1st May.

Well, we certainly will be mathematically although if we lose tomorrow and City win then it will be hard to make a case for us.

It was unnecessary because it was self inflicted with a poorly chosen line up, I choose my words carefully.

In your opinion. But you've criticised Arteta for line ups in plenty of games we've won this year. What I'm mostly looking for is progression. I've seen that this year. Had we properly collapsed again then I'd probably be with you, but we really haven't. Dropping points tomorrow would be disappointing but "expecting" a win at a ground we rarely win at is unreasonable.

[HCZ_Reborn]

You lost your shit after the first PL loss of 2024, prior to which we'd won every game but 1 - the one being a creditable result away at City.


Well, we certainly will be mathematically although if we lose tomorrow and City win then it will be hard to make a case for us.


In your opinion. But you've criticised Arteta for line ups in plenty of games we've won this year. What I'm mostly looking for is progression. I've seen that this year. Had we properly collapsed again then I'd probably be with you, but we really haven't. Dropping points tomorrow would be disappointing but "expecting" a win at a ground we rarely win at is unreasonable.

What I’m expecting is for us to make City have to win every single one of their remaining games. We didn’t do that last season, and if we don’t do it this season I cannot see how that’s progress.


Yes we’ve done well in 2024 but that’s after a lot of poor results in the first half of the season. But let’s point out a few things…in 97/98 we were unbeaten from December 1997 until when we secured the title against Everton, and we then lost the next two dead rubber games. 2001/2002 we won 12 games in a row and again were unbeaten from just before Xmas.

These are the standards set by title winning teams of over 20 years so don’t give me this shit that I’m expecting too much. It’s unfortunate that Spurs and United are the last two away games of the season but even though it’s not in our hands there is no excuse not to win both games because we are better than both teams and when it comes to the crunch there are no excuses.

No fan of NQ but I think he has a point when he talks about the fanbase being infected with mediocrity. His Wenger hatred means that most of what he says is bollocks. Liverpool have dropped away, it’s remarkable that they were leading for as long as they were…testament to what a great manager Klopp is that a team with so much average led the way for so long

[Letters]

What I’m expecting is for us to make City have to win every single one of their remaining games. We didn’t do that last season, and if we don’t do it this season I cannot see how that’s progress.

So we either do push them to the last day or we don't, and that's your only measurement of progress?
That's such a weird and binary way of looking at things. You're not even comparing like for like. Last year we had an outstanding run up till the World Cup which in many people's minds made us favourites. I personally never quite saw it that way, it was still pretty early in the season, but we were certainly well clear at the time. We then had one of our wobbles - including a loss to City - but then went on a good run and we were still in charge of the title race at the start of April. We were 8 points clear of City although they had a game in hand.

We then went on a pretty disastrous run of 3 points in 12, including losing the away game at City. And that put us a point behind them with 5 games to go and they had a game in hand. Then went on to lose 2 of the last 3 games - and they were Brighton at home and Forest away, games I do think it's more reasonable to expect us to win.
It wasn't just that we didn't take them to the last day, we went on an awful run which took us from a commanding position to underdogs, and then we downed tools and just handed it to them.

That was pretty poor, but I guess given a title challenge was so unexpected I could forgive them somewhat, as disappointing as it was. But we needed to show progress this year. And we clearly have. It's been a completely different title race. One, which I'll remind you again, you expressed scepticism early season we'd even be in. So this level of expectation you now have is a little baffling. There has been 3 contenders and I don't think at any point anyone has really been far enough ahead that you could install them as clear favourites. But we've stood our ground. And we've stood up in the big games. 4 points from Liverpool, 4 points from City. This time last season we'd collapsed to the point that City were ahead with a game in hand. This year we're ahead - City still have a game in hand and that makes them favourites but there's been no collapse from us this year. We've pushed them as hard as we reasonably could. There's been one slip this calendar year, which given we're close to May is hardly something to lose our shit about. I don't even agree there were a "lot" of poor results before the turn of the 2023. The big wobble we had was the West Ham at home and Fulham away double header. We then followed it up with losing to Liverpool in the Cup although actually we were good in that game. It was wastefulness up front which cost us in that one - that has been an emerging theme this season, although we have scored more than anyone else so that's a bit of a conundrum.

These are the standards set by title winning teams of over 20 years so don’t give me this shit that I’m expecting too much.

You're cherry picking. There are plenty of other seasons where the title winning side didn't go on a run like that.
I picked an arbitrary season - before City started going on these mental runs, and I didn't count Leicester which was a bit of a weird season all round. The season after that Chelsea won it. They admittedly had a long winning run in the first half of the season but that only put them 6 points clear. After that they dropped more than enough points for another team to overhaul them, but there wasn't "a City" around to punish them.
[EDIT: I checked 2014-15 too. Chelsea champions that year too. Never won more than 4 in a row]

It’s unfortunate that Spurs and United are the last two away games of the season but even though it’s not in our hands there is no excuse not to win both games because we are better than both teams and when it comes to the crunch there are no excuses.

None of the title winning sides you're ejaculating over won at Spurs. And this Spurs side are significantly better than the one which the best Wenger side failed to beat. I'm not saying we can't win tomorrow, but "expecting" us to is you being the annoyed customer in a fine dining restaurant. You know that Spurs will be trying to win too, right? And they're not actually a bad side this year. Beatable, certainly, but they're not going to want to lose a NLD which could push us towards a title. They will be very up for it tomorrow.

No fan of NQ but I think he has a point when he talks about the fanbase being infected with mediocrity.

There's a massive gap between mediocrity and your expectation of perfection.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I’m not expecting perfection, I’m expecting the number of points that sides who have won the title have on average won

Anyway 2005 and 2006 - Chelsea won at Spurs, 2007 United won at Spurs, City won at Spurs when they won the title in 2012, 2014, 2018 and 2019 and Leicester won at Spurs when they won the title in 2016

The Arsenal winning title sides - won at United in 98 and 2002, won at Liverpool in 2002 and 2004 title wins, and Chelsea in 1998 and 2004 title wins.


But none of this is relevant. We put ourselves in the situation where we have to win at Spurs and United by our failure to win easier fixtures earlier on in the season. It is what it is, if we can’t challenge right to the end then there’s absolutely nothing substantive to your claim that we’ve built on last season and haven’t just hit the ceiling.

I’m responding to your claim that because of City steamroller we are left with impossible task, but if we aren’t getting the points that would usually win us the title that claim is completely empty

[Letters]

I’m not expecting perfection

Literally earlier in this thread you said we should be expecting to win all 4 games. Games which include 2 tricky away games. Games we haven't won in title winning seasons.

I’m expecting the number of points that sides who have won the title have on average won

That average is a bit skewed by a few exceptional seasons of late. The average over the last 7 seasons is 94 points, thanks to a City side who are surely the best in PL history and Klopp taking Liverpool to a pretty ridiculous level - and he only got the better of them once. I'm not convinced that's the new normal. We're likely to get a points total which would have seen us there or thereabouts in most seasons before that.

I'm confused about your level of expectation and what it's based on. Early season you were complaining about how rubbish we were - even though we were winning the games - and predicting doom. After the Fulham game - the first points we dropped - you said that:

"I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us"
https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/s...ead.php?t=5264
#agedlikemilk

Then after the West Ham game you said:

[if we don't bring in a target man in January] I don’t think it’s just the title that won’t happen (I think we can kiss goodbye to that now, that’s between Liverpool and Man City) but top four as well

https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/s...ead.php?t=5325

When I picked you up on over-reacting to a bad result and said we'd finish top 3 you were bigging up Spurs and Villa - who never seemed credible contenders to me.

And then after the recent Villa game you declared it a "collapse". The first game we'd lost in the calendar year!
Your basis for that was it was sandwiched between the two Bayern games - a team you have declared one we should have beaten despite tipping them for the CL at the start of the season.

You're all over the shop, dude, and you massively overreact to every setback. No that there's anything to over-react to right now, we picked ourselves up after the Villa loss and CL exit and have continued to win.

We put ourselves in the situation where we have to win at Spurs and United by our failure to win easier fixtures earlier on in the season.

That's one way of looking at it. An alternative way of doing so is we've put ourselves in the situation where with 4 games to go we could win the title despite City only dropping 6 points this calendar year.

It is what it is, if we can’t challenge right to the end then there’s absolutely nothing substantive to your claim that we’ve built on last season and haven’t just hit the ceiling.

I guess that's true if you ignore all the things I mentioned in some detail which demonstrate progress. To summarise:

Last year we blew a pretty substantial lead and with 4 games to go we were all but out of it.
This year we have never had any cushion but we've stuck with a City side who are surely the best and most consistent in PL history.
Last year we lost the 6 pointers, this year we've stood up in them.
And first year back in the CL and we got through to the quarter finals for the first time in 14 years.

We've passed a load of tests we failed last year.
The difference is pretty clear.

If we lose tomorrow then we'll be all but out of the title race but I won't be losing my shit about that. You will, I imagine.
We always knew that the harder run in was a factor against us. We were never favourites because of that. The glimmer of hope would be City also have to go to Spurs where they have a poor record, but that would be clutching at straws.

I’m responding to your claim that because of City steamroller we are left with impossible task, but if we aren’t getting the points that would usually win us the title that claim is completely empty

Not impossible, but the City juggernaut have only been stopped once and that was by a team who did pretty much achieve the perfection you claim not to expect but your reaction to every setback suggests otherwise.

Overall, I can't really fault their efforts this season however things end up. We could exceed last year's points total and goals scored. We'll definitely have a much better defence and therefore goal difference. I feel I've seen progress from last year and I've evidenced that. If you don't feel that, or don't feel it's enough given the money spent then OK, I guess we agree to disagree.

[Marc Overmars]

We’re significantly better than United and Spurs so I guess there should be an element of expectation to win but these are grounds we’ve rarely won at throughout PL history, regardless of form and what state we’ve been in. Don’t recall ever winning at both in the same season but we simply have to this year to have any chance of the title.

[Letters]

We’re significantly better than United and Spurs so I guess there should be an element of expectation to win but these are grounds we’ve rarely won at throughout PL history, regardless of form and what state we’ve been in. Don’t recall ever winning at both in the same season but we simply have to this year to have any chance of the title.

Just watching the Utd highlights.
Us if we don’t win there , they are a hilarious mess.
More worried about today.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Literally earlier in this thread you said we should be expecting to win all 4 games. Games which include 2 tricky away games. Games we haven't won in title winning seasons.


That average is a bit skewed by a few exceptional seasons of late. The average over the last 7 seasons is 94 points, thanks to a City side who are surely the best in PL history and Klopp taking Liverpool to a pretty ridiculous level - and he only got the better of them once. I'm not convinced that's the new normal. We're likely to get a points total which would have seen us there or thereabouts in most seasons before that.

I'm confused about your level of expectation and what it's based on. Early season you were complaining about how rubbish we were - even though we were winning the games - and predicting doom. After the Fulham game - the first points we dropped - you said that:

"I think people here will have to concede that Rice shouldn’t be playing for us"
https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/s...ead.php?t=5264
#agedlikemilk

Then after the West Ham game you said:


https://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/s...ead.php?t=5325

When I picked you up on over-reacting to a bad result and said we'd finish top 3 you were bigging up Spurs and Villa - who never seemed credible contenders to me.

And then after the recent Villa game you declared it a "collapse". The first game we'd lost in the calendar year!
Your basis for that was it was sandwiched between the two Bayern games - a team you have declared one we should have beaten despite tipping them for the CL at the start of the season.

You're all over the shop, dude, and you massively overreact to every setback. No that there's anything to over-react to right now, we picked ourselves up after the Villa loss and CL exit and have continued to win.


That's one way of looking at it. An alternative way of doing so is we've put ourselves in the situation where with 4 games to go we could win the title despite City only dropping 6 points this calendar year.


I guess that's true if you ignore all the things I mentioned in some detail which demonstrate progress. To summarise:

Last year we blew a pretty substantial lead and with 4 games to go we were all but out of it.
This year we have never had any cushion but we've stuck with a City side who are surely the best and most consistent in PL history.
Last year we lost the 6 pointers, this year we've stood up in them.
And first year back in the CL and we got through to the quarter finals for the first time in 14 years.

We've passed a load of tests we failed last year.
The difference is pretty clear.

If we lose tomorrow then we'll be all but out of the title race but I won't be losing my shit about that. You will, I imagine.
We always knew that the harder run in was a factor against us. We were never favourites because of that. The glimmer of hope would be City also have to go to Spurs where they have a poor record, but that would be clutching at straws.


Not impossible, but the City juggernaut have only been stopped once and that was by a team who did pretty much achieve the perfection you claim not to expect but your reaction to every setback suggests otherwise.

Overall, I can't really fault their efforts this season however things end up. We could exceed last year's points total and goals scored. We'll definitely have a much better defence and therefore goal difference. I feel I've seen progress from last year and I've evidenced that. If you don't feel that, or don't feel it's enough given the money spent then OK, I guess we agree to disagree.

Expectation is based on the money we’ve spent I’ve consistently stated this

The concern of struggling was based on the first few games of the season which were diabolical, by your own admission you weren’t watching those games to see how atrocious we were.

The simple point I’ve been making over and over again is that if we can’t get the average points total that teams have won over the past twenty years to win the league than we have nothing to say about City…nothing.

Spurs and United are not easy fixtures, the expectation that we should win them is based on the position we are in now where we have to win them…played at different times of the season a draw might have been acceptable in one of those games.

Success or failure is determined by fine margins, not just in football but in all sport. If we can’t push city right to the end now when they haven’t particularly had their best season what makes you think we can do it next season.


It was a collapse. We lost control of the title race and went out of the champions league. It’s weird to look at it in any other way.

[Mac76]

Just watching the Utd highlights.
Us if we don’t win there , they are a hilarious mess.
More worried about today.

Yes I must admit, while I still wouldn't use the word 'expect' I probably would use the word 'should' in terms of our winning, although even then it's a game Utd will be up for and want to show off in, probably one of the few times they'll put in a decent shift

Plus they're bound to get a dodgy pel