That's a confusing sentenceOriginally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Southgate wouldn't have won us the next World Cup.
Spoiler: Nor will the next bloke. I guess we'll talk in 2 years
That's a confusing sentence
Southgate wouldn't have won us the next World Cup.
Spoiler: Nor will the next bloke. I guess we'll talk in 2 years
I suppose the question is do you think England have the players to win the World Cup. If you don’t think that, then I respectfully disagree but fair enough. But if it’s based on this fatalistic, England will find a way to fuck it up because that’s just what we do.That's a confusing sentence
Southgate wouldn't have won us the next World Cup.
Spoiler: Nor will the next bloke. I guess we'll talk in 2 years
I’d just say that
England in this century have won both the Cricket and Rugby World Cup, the UK has produced serial winners in multiple sports. There’s no reason why football should be any different.
However I do think there’s a mentality deficit especially amongst supporters who clutched their pearls over criticism of Southgate for getting us to two Euro finals. It’s the reason why the FA wanted him to stay on and it’s putting it simply a mentality of losers prepared to accept second best. If that doesn’t change then this could be an impediment to us, but will see.
I'd say we have the players to be contenders, I don't think we're hot favourites.
I don't really think our achievements in other sports are that relevant. Cricket and Rugby are both far less competitive - as in, there isn't the depth of quality that there is in a properly global sport like football.
Like all these things, the discussion becomes so polarised. Southgate definitely deserves criticism for the way we played in the Euros, we were very negative in a way we don't need to be with our players. But he got us to two finals in a row - the first finals in our history in the Euros. To dismiss that as just blind luck with easy draws or to say we've suddenly got this exceptional squad who should be sweeping all before us is a bit silly. He deserves some credit for that. It's a bit like Poch and Spurs, basically did well but didn't land a trophy. But the next bloke didn't at Spuds either and I don't think the next bloke will with England. We certainly have a squad which should be contenders now but historically we've always failed even when we have in theory been good enough.However I do think there’s a mentality deficit especially amongst supporters who clutched their pearls over criticism of Southgate for getting us to two Euro finals
The Cricket World Cup was daylight robbery which makes the Russian linesman seem liike an irrelevance
The New Zealand team should have staged a sit-in or suchlike until the decision was overthrown
No it’s not just blind luck it’s also having the players. Southgate’s best job was arguably getting to the semi finals of 2018 because we were most definitely not contenders then and although it was disappointing to lose to Croatia, there was a sense of achievement. You didn’t have him getting criticised for not winning it, because every sensible fan knows even if we’d got to the final we’d have had our arses handed to us by France
Euro 2020 similarly there wasn’t abuse against Southgate for failing to beat Italy, there was over magnification of a few racist trolls targeting Saka (who by the way has shown such exceptional character in coming back from that)
World Cup 2022 I don’t think the expectation was on us to win but the patience was starting to run thin with predictably timid tactics, the game against France we actually had them on the rack for big parts of the second half and then we retreat within ourselves again.
Euro 2024….i think you know as well as I do that it was more than just losing the final, it was the utter compost mulch that passed for football. I think if not for that and if we’d actually gone for it against Spain like Germany did and still lost I think there would have been far less criticism
Do I agree with fans chucking plastic cups at him? No but unfortunately there are always morons. None of the pundits who were frustrated with the tactics were in anyway abusive or disrespectful. But ultimately getting to two finals means nothing if you can’t identify where progress is likely to come from. Jogi Low took over from Klinnsman in 2006 and managed two semis and a final (where they were outplayed by Spain) before finally getting it right in 2014….he was given that time because it was clear that there was a clear identity, a purpose, a plan with what he was trying to do. They were bringing through exciting players, they played without fear and they looked like a team not a group of individuals.
None of this was evident with Southgate….its not an easy thing to do, I think the people who said he established a good atmosphere in the England camp probably do have a point, I think Southgate probably did help Saka a lot after that penalty miss which could have been damaging for a player his age. But even then that comes with caveat, he absolutely comes out of the Ben White fracas looking weak.
As for your opinion that England shouldn’t be considered favourites for any given tournament be it the one just gone or the World Cup. Well I think it depends who is brought in and how they are able to make best use of the players they have. I think France as I said earlier have ended their cycle which failed to establish the dominance it should have, Spain have outperformed but ultimately footballing gravity will reassert itself and Germany have the right man in Nagelsmann they are just slightly further behind us in their transition. Argentina don’t impress me, and Brazil seem to be going through a crisis of confidence (although last time that happened they ended up winning the World Cup in Japan and South Korea)
So what I say is the platform is there for us to go into the tournament as favourites feasibly, it’s just a case of whether we grasp it
And I say this aware of false dawns. But I don’t think I have ever felt that we were likely to win a tournament. The first tournament I was old enough to form opinions on as to who might win it was Euro 96. Germany were the favourites for that tournament, and it being played in England nudged us up to second favourites. My experience of that tournament was people felt it was sad it ended like it did for us, but no anger against Venables I think most people wanted him to stay on as coach. And I think most people felt sorry for Southgate for missing that pen (well not so much missed but saved by Kopke) the way they’d felt for Stuart Pearce six years earlier (and the way most people who aren’t utter dickheads felt sorry for Saka)
And then looking at the other tournaments that followed on from this, this seems to reflect the general feeling at the time
France 98 - the abuse Beckham got was fucking outrageous, and I think Diego Simeone proved as a player and a coach to be a horrible piece of work. But ultimately never expected us to win because it was clear that Glenn Hoddle was a half wit.
Euro 2000 - Typical Keegan really, good going forward…hopeless at the back. Disappointed to go out at the group stage but I think everyone knew the French were going to win this.
2002 - Japan/S Korea - As I recall Argentina were the favourites and didn’t even get out of the group. The match between us and Brazil was a bit of a fizzle after the Ronaldinho fluke goal, but it wasn’t really crushed dreams
2004 - Euro 2004 - Equally not sure there was any strong belief that we were going to win this. The assumption was that despite going out at the group stage of the World Cup that France would win this tournament.
2006 - Germany - Now this is probably the only tournament where it was spoken about that this could be our time. Beckham was playing his last tournament before retiring from international duty, last tournament for Sven. But ultimately we were a good team in amongst a load of other good teams - France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Argentina and Brazil
2010 - S Africa - I get that Capello was brought in to turn us into winners but the expectation was that the winner would be Brazil or Spain.
2012 - Euros - Capello gone off in a huff, Woy was appointed as the safety first option and actually the appraisal when we went out in the quarters to Italy was that we’d done well given the upheaval prior to the tournament
2014 - Brazil - Our name never once mentioned amongst list of potential winners, lots of calls for Woy to go after group stage exit
2016 - France - Expected that we’d do better than we did, but equally expected that we’d get to the 1/4s and come up against a superior French team…as it turns out Iceland beat us
Beckham deserved everything he got
The Ronaldinho goal wasn't a fluke
Chants of “your wife’s a whore and we hope your kid dies of cancer?” And effigies hanging from lampposts. If you think that behaviour is not outrageous it says nothing good about you.
And yes it absolutely was a fluke. It was a cross…Seaman was badly positioned but the intent was clearly to aim the ball for someone in a blue shirt to get their head on it
OK yes maybe that stuff re Bekcham did go just a little bit too far
but no Ronaldinho meant it, it's just a shame some people don't have the imagination or understanding of what a very good player at the top of their game can actually do - if it had been the other way round would all the England fans be calling it as a fluke? I think not
Players have scored goals from all kinds of wonderful angles that defy description it’s not the lack of imagination that makes me assert that it was a fluke, it’s knowing what a cross is, seeing the goal scorers reaction of incredulity before suddenly trying to pretend that he meant it. As I said to you in the other thread, Flukes are a big part of life. Brazil were better than us and deserved to win, a fortuitous goal doesn’t detract from that. People compare it to what Nayim did for Real Zaragoza against Seaman, now that was both fortunate and intended….fortunate in that Seaman could and should have kept it outOK yes maybe that stuff re Bekcham did go just a little bit too far
but no Ronaldinho meant it, it's just a shame some people don't have the imagination or understanding of what a very good player at the top of their game can actually do - if it had been the other way round would all the England fans be calling it as a fluke? I think not
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