Arsenal vs Manchester United Player ratings and match reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

Meanwhile I've just discovered our next transfer target...

https://twitter.com/SundayChants/sta...67079525163194

scuffed it

[IBK]

Obviously very happy with the result.

We are not quite clicking though. It's very noticeable that (for me) we looked much more solid with big Gabbby back and therefore a much more familiar back 5.

Last week I was going to post that Arteta is over complicating our approach. I recall him saying that we adopted an absurdly high number of formations in the Fulham game, and the telepathy that we saw a lot in the first 2 thirds of last season is lacking as a result. Its one thing trying to be unpredictable and have pland B C and D against a low block. It's another trying to be too clever and taking the instinctiveness that seemed to free our players and made them look as though they are enjoying playing away from the team.

So it was good to see us looking more like this in the final 10/15 mins of this game, and I hope that this is a sign that we are finding our groove again.

It's funny how a fairytale ending shifts perceptions. For most of the game I was cursing Havertz - not just for his own defeiciency in looking like he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but for the manager's stubbornnness in playing him, and taking away from our team's cohesion in the process. Now I am more inclined to tolerate his inclusion and try to be patient - but only on the condition that he Arteta does not also tinker further with what is otherwise our strongest satring 11 - give or take Jesus/Nketiah.

It seems churlish to mention this - but we have to do something about our tendency to concede on on an opponent's first goalscoring opportunity. We know that (an albeit poor) Manure team plays counterattacking football, but by consistently pressing so high we gift players like Eriksen and Rashford precisely what they are waiting for - and we keep getting punished for it. If we are going to persist with this (and we are), then we HAVE to be more clinical in front of goal ourselves. To this end, Saka's form worries me. Its seems obvious that he has been overplayed, and we need to find a way to give him a rest. I would try playing Reiss Nelson in his position, but replace Havertz with Trossard (or Vieira) when an opportunity presents itself.

Anyways - a very important result that means we go into the international break with our tails up rather than navel gazing - which is the last thing that we need at the moment.

[Chippy]

Yes i think i was trying to be reasonable but you're right it is generous and 1.5 is probably more like it

[HCZ_Reborn]

Obviously very happy with the result.

We are not quite clicking though. It's very noticeable that (for me) we looked much more solid with big Gabbby back and therefore a much more familiar back 5.

Last week I was going to post that Arteta is over complicating our approach. I recall him saying that we adopted an absurdly high number of formations in the Fulham game, and the telepathy that we saw a lot in the first 2 thirds of last season is lacking as a result. Its one thing trying to be unpredictable and have pland B C and D against a low block. It's another trying to be too clever and taking the instinctiveness that seemed to free our players and made them look as though they are enjoying playing away from the team.

So it was good to see us looking more like this in the final 10/15 mins of this game, and I hope that this is a sign that we are finding our groove again.

It's funny how a fairytale ending shifts perceptions. For most of the game I was cursing Havertz - not just for his own defeiciency in looking like he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but for the manager's stubbornnness in playing him, and taking away from our team's cohesion in the process. Now I am more inclined to tolerate his inclusion and try to be patient - but only on the condition that he Arteta does not also tinker further with what is otherwise our strongest satring 11 - give or take Jesus/Nketiah.

It seems churlish to mention this - but we have to do something about our tendency to concede on on an opponent's first goalscoring opportunity. We know that (an albeit poor) Manure team plays counterattacking football, but by consistently pressing so high we gift players like Eriksen and Rashford precisely what they are waiting for - and we keep getting punished for it. If we are going to persist with this (and we are), then we HAVE to be more clinical in front of goal ourselves. To this end, Saka's form worries me. Its seems obvious that he has been overplayed, and we need to find a way to give him a rest. I would try playing Reiss Nelson in his position, but replace Havertz with Trossard (or Vieira) when an opportunity presents itself.

Anyways - a very important result that means we go into the international break with our tails up rather than navel gazing - which is the last thing that we need at the moment.

I’m glad it’s not just me who sees the obvious drawback in holding a high line. Ultimately I think it plays to the strengths of teams that come here for two reasons a) because as you note we aren’t clinical enough in front of goal to profit from pushing up so much and b) the fullback system we employ leaves us vulnerable to pace attacks, now Ben White is no slouch but he’s also no full back although I will say he did start off shakily with Marcus Rashford but he dealt much better with him as the game went on…I suspect he felt more comfortable sliding in to try and win the ball later on where as risking a yellow early on changes the game for you.

But either way Rashford is an excellent footballer imo, so to get a handle on him is to his credit.


I kind of feel though we are pissing into the wind expecting our attacking players to be clinical, Saka and Martinelli for instance their footballing instincts are to lay on chances for others rather than take them on themselves….and tend to only take shots on when there’s no other option.

In a way the problem is the same is true for Trossard, Nketiah, Jesus etc…I would say Odegaard but actually for me I think he’s taking too many shots on where sometimes he’d be better laying it on for others. But there is a hesitancy to take on the shot and it gives defenders time to readjust themselves and block.

My solution is to play more on the counter attack where you have the space to operate and passing to others takes entire defences out of the game. I’m not quite sure we have the midfield currently to play that way (certainly don’t have the fullbacks) but I think we need to appreciate that we were lucky that Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard were in such a purple patch for goals last season and we simply shouldn’t have assumed that would carry on to this. This is why not buying a striker was idiotic, but we are where we are.

[Letters]

Meanwhile I've just discovered our next transfer target...

https://twitter.com/SundayChants/sta...67079525163194

The shot was a bit of a hit and hope but that first touch was *chef's kiss*

[Mac76]

The shot was a bit of a hit and hope but that first touch was *chef's kiss*

and the way he beat the two players immediately after receiving the ball

also I'm not a fan of people writing things off as 'hit and hope' it was a well-taken shot which found the top corner, - ok if he tried it again ten times he might not place it there once, but you could say that about a lot of pro footballers

[selassie]

Obviously very happy with the result.

We are not quite clicking though. It's very noticeable that (for me) we looked much more solid with big Gabbby back and therefore a much more familiar back 5.

Last week I was going to post that Arteta is over complicating our approach. I recall him saying that we adopted an absurdly high number of formations in the Fulham game, and the telepathy that we saw a lot in the first 2 thirds of last season is lacking as a result. Its one thing trying to be unpredictable and have pland B C and D against a low block. It's another trying to be too clever and taking the instinctiveness that seemed to free our players and made them look as though they are enjoying playing away from the team.

So it was good to see us looking more like this in the final 10/15 mins of this game, and I hope that this is a sign that we are finding our groove again.

It's funny how a fairytale ending shifts perceptions. For most of the game I was cursing Havertz - not just for his own defeiciency in looking like he is on a different wavelength to everyone else, but for the manager's stubbornnness in playing him, and taking away from our team's cohesion in the process. Now I am more inclined to tolerate his inclusion and try to be patient - but only on the condition that he Arteta does not also tinker further with what is otherwise our strongest satring 11 - give or take Jesus/Nketiah.

It seems churlish to mention this - but we have to do something about our tendency to concede on on an opponent's first goalscoring opportunity. We know that (an albeit poor) Manure team plays counterattacking football, but by consistently pressing so high we gift players like Eriksen and Rashford precisely what they are waiting for - and we keep getting punished for it. If we are going to persist with this (and we are), then we HAVE to be more clinical in front of goal ourselves. To this end, Saka's form worries me. Its seems obvious that he has been overplayed, and we need to find a way to give him a rest. I would try playing Reiss Nelson in his position, but replace Havertz with Trossard (or Vieira) when an opportunity presents itself.

Anyways - a very important result that means we go into the international break with our tails up rather than navel gazing - which is the last thing that we need at the moment.

Yesterday was a really important result, it would not have been good if we dropped points in back to back home games. I agree with a lot of what you are saying here and did think we look a bit more stable at the back with the inclusion of Gabriel.

We were pressing really high last season but I think the security of Partey and Xhaka and the chemistry in the team meant we did not get punished as obviously or as much. Central Midfield at the moment is the issue and that's largely down to 2/3rd's of it being different in personnel (Rice and Havertz). Rice has bedded in fairly well and is giving us 7 out of 10 performances most weeks, Havertz up until now has been a passenger, he isn't adding much to the team offensively or defensively. Havertz was a high risk, but potentially high reward signing, I am prepared to give him time to bed into his new role but it should not to the detriment of the teams performances and results. If he continues to add nothing then he should be dropped and forced to play himself back into contention, I don't care how much he earns or what he costs. I do however agree with you and think Arteta will persist with him until I guess the chemistry is formed. It's not just an issue with just Havertz, the chemistry between all 3 of the Midfielders has not yet been formed and it's why IMO we are seeing these disjointed perfromances. Regardless we are winning and that's not a bad thing even if at times it's a struggle to watch.

[IBK]

I’m glad it’s not just me who sees the obvious drawback in holding a high line. Ultimately I think it plays to the strengths of teams that come here for two reasons a) because as you note we aren’t clinical enough in front of goal to profit from pushing up so much and b) the fullback system we employ leaves us vulnerable to pace attacks, now Ben White is no slouch but he’s also no full back although I will say he did start off shakily with Marcus Rashford but he dealt much better with him as the game went on…I suspect he felt more comfortable sliding in to try and win the ball later on where as risking a yellow early on changes the game for you.

But either way Rashford is an excellent footballer imo, so to get a handle on him is to his credit.


I kind of feel though we are pissing into the wind expecting our attacking players to be clinical, Saka and Martinelli for instance their footballing instincts are to lay on chances for others rather than take them on themselves….and tend to only take shots on when there’s no other option.

In a way the problem is the same is true for Trossard, Nketiah, Jesus etc…I would say Odegaard but actually for me I think he’s taking too many shots on where sometimes he’d be better laying it on for others. But there is a hesitancy to take on the shot and it gives defenders time to readjust themselves and block.

My solution is to play more on the counter attack where you have the space to operate and passing to others takes entire defences out of the game. I’m not quite sure we have the midfield currently to play that way (certainly don’t have the fullbacks) but I think we need to appreciate that we were lucky that Saka, Martinelli and Odegaard were in such a purple patch for goals last season and we simply shouldn’t have assumed that would carry on to this. This is why not buying a striker was idiotic, but we are where we are.

Yes - alas I think you are right about our existing players becoming more clinical. But I am not sure that this issue would be solved simply by buying a striker. Arteta's system demands that a 'finisher' is not enough. Our No 9 needs to be a technical playmaker as well as an out and out striker. He needs to have the technical ability to play in tight spaces and with his back to goal. I think that our 'verticality' is not quick enough - and neither do we put in sufficiently good crosses to suit a target man who can knock the ball down for others or finish himself. There is no space and the opposition defenders are generally already set by the time we get the ball central. We are often caught in the 'horseshoe'. We have recently tried to stretch the opposition by getting the ball wide quickly - but while this worked in the first 10 mins yesterday - many teams have worked this out and do not commit too many players wide.

I think that your concern about our MF not being able to re-produce their goal tally of last season. My fear is that the manager does not share this view.

FWIW Eddie is more of a 'finisher' as a striker, but his game suffers from the above situation. Maybe a Haaland would solve it - but he is a freak, and I'm not sure there are too many options available to us of his type of quality.

It's clear that Arteta sees Havertz as a striking solution - providing goals from the left - but the problem is that he is fluffing his lines so far.

In theory, of course playing counter-attacking football would provide better opportunities, but firstly Arteta is not that guy at all. Possession seems to be everything with him. Secondly our technical excellence is a problem as well as a virtue. Like it or not the majority of teams (including Manure) fear this, and are not simply going to come on to us - affording space behind is not something that we can dictate and to a degree we are stuck having to cope habitually with low block. So we are caught between 2 stools. Teams sense that we are vulnerable because of our high line and it only takes one misplaced pass to open us up. So we seek solutions to that lack of space by having a playmaker in goal.

Given what we have, I think our best hope is that our players develop that telepathy that reduces astray passes - because I don't see much changing otherwise. I also fear that we may be found out in the CL.

I will be very interested in seeing how we deal with Spurs in 3 weeks' time. It seems that they know no other game under Postecoglou than pressing forward, so this may give us a look at what we are like when given more space to operate...

[HCZ_Reborn]

Yes - alas I think you are right about our existing players becoming more clinical. But I am not sure that this issue would be solved simply by buying a striker. Arteta's system demands that a 'finisher' is not enough. Our No 9 needs to be a technical playmaker as well as an out and out striker. He needs to have the technical ability to play in tight spaces and with his back to goal. I think that our 'verticality' is not quick enough - and neither do we put in sufficiently good crosses to suit a target man who can knock the ball down for others or finish himself. There is no space and the opposition defenders are generally already set by the time we get the ball central. We are often caught in the 'horseshoe'. We have recently tried to stretch the opposition by getting the ball wide quickly - but while this worked in the first 10 mins yesterday - many teams have worked this out and do not commit too many players wide.

I think that your concern about our MF not being able to re-produce their goal tally of last season. My fear is that the manager does not share this view.

FWIW Eddie is more of a 'finisher' as a striker, but his game suffers from the above situation. Maybe a Haaland would solve it - but he is a freak, and I'm not sure there are too many options available to us of his type of quality.

It's clear that Arteta sees Havertz as a striking solution - providing goals from the left - but the problem is that he is fluffing his lines so far.

In theory, of course playing counter-attacking football would provide better opportunities, but firstly Arteta is not that guy at all. Possession seems to be everything with him. Secondly our technical excellence is a problem as well as a virtue. Like it or not the majority of teams (including Manure) fear this, and are not simply going to come on to us - affording space behind is not something that we can dictate and to a degree we are stuck having to cope habitually with low block. So we are caught between 2 stools. Teams sense that we are vulnerable because of our high line and it only takes one misplaced pass to open us up. So we seek solutions to that lack of space by having a playmaker in goal.

Given what we have, I think our best hope is that our players develop that telepathy that reduces astray passes - because I don't see much changing otherwise. I also fear that we may be found out in the CL.

I will be very interested in seeing how we deal with Spurs in 3 weeks' time. It seems that they know no other game under Postecoglou than pressing forward, so this may give us a look at what we are like when given more space to operate...

To précis what you’ve said it feels like the biggest barrier for us is the coach and when I suggested that last season I was shot down, because perception is often what carries more than reality and perception is that Arteta is a genius and he isn’t. I’m not saying he’s stupid, I’m saying he’s stubborn and full of hubris and is the kind of person who takes unconventional and goes down a rabbit hole with it.

Yes you need to change things up, but sometimes the path of least resistance is there for a reason.

[IBK]

I think where we differ is that while I can observe issues with the approach that Arteta is adopting with our team, I don't want a change of manager (I don't know whether this is your view, but I know that some on here do). He is stubborn and seems to have a blind spot with certain players, but there is not a manager out there who is without flaws. Even Guardiola is IMO guilty of playing a rather uninspiring brand of smothering football, and we will never know whether he would be able to achieve the success he has had without the unlimited financial resources at his disposal - not to mention his club breaking financial ules 100+ times. While we are at it, if people see Arteta as cold and obsessive (I don't personally agree with the former), Guardiola is this x 100. I don't like him at all.

I think regarding Arteta as a 'genius' is overblown. He is clearly a clever tactician (seems too much at times), but is a manager still learning in his first big role. But I struggle to see the antipathy to him. He is one of our own, and clearly loves our club. And he has given us an identity and some pride back in our team after too many broken years. In a sense I feel that he is a victim of his own success, because expectations are so high at Arsenal now - and as a result there is angst amongst some suppoters every time we fall below 'perfect'.

Arteta has built a young team that is the envy of most that has not reached its ceiling yet. He and his team have given us moments over the last season or so that we have not witnessed since Wenger's glory years. I think that his achievements need to be seen in the context of the travails affecting a number of our traditional rivals - and he compares very favourably in this regard. It seems a little absurd to me that the fact he was unable to beat what is the best team in the world to the title last season seems to be held against him.

I have always been of the view that its unfair to judge the manager we do have against a theoretically perfect manager we don't - when such a manager does not exist.

Arteta's (real or percieved) flaws are interesting to debate. But things are going pretty well notwithstanding, IMO.