Are we getting carried away with the doom and gloom?

[Niall_Quinn]

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

The fans and the sponsors have provided money that has been misspent, that much I'd agree with. I'm not even suggesting we waste more money, not at this stage. It's the attitude that has to change. People are saying it's great that Arteta has pulled the team together into a more cohesive unit. True, he has. But what the hell? Isn't that what a team is supposed to be all about anyway? We're giving him a thumbs up for doing the absolute bare minimum, just because we had managers before that couldn't even achieve that much? I'm not criticising Arteta for doing his job, and I haven't been calling for his head. But I'm not getting excited about square one either.

I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference who we brought in while the attitude at every level of this club is so rancid. I think we might need a priest rather than a manager to solve the problems. Cast out all thoughts about scraping into a CL competition we don't stand a chance of competing in as some form of success. That's what got us into this decline in the first place, Wenger's Top 4 Trophy as we slid into this inevitable mid-table status, which people were warning about (myself included) for years, and being laughed out of the room for saying it.

With the current attitude remaining in place (second best is 1% from glory, don't lose rather than strive to win), a rookie manager that seems to appreciate the basics but shows no sign of taking it beyond that, so far, and owners that treat the whole affair as an exercise in balancing the books - we're getting the expected outcome. How could it be any different? If the manager is not going to change (because there's no point) and the owners aren't going to change then the attitude has to change. It has to become realistic rather than purely optimistic. It has to be about what must happen and how it will happen rather than what we hope could happen.

If I could hear Arteta essentially saying, fuck, we play shit, boring, pointless, soulless garbage and that needs to change pronto because that's not going to get us anywhere, then I might have some enthusiasm. Instead I'm hearing about the great spirit again, and I've heard all that shit before. And I'm hearing about the CL being the goal, not the title. It's unrealistic for us to win a title in short order, that's fair, but what's the PLAN for doing that, step by step? And is that plan being executed? I don't see it. The only realism I can see here is a "big" club settling down to be also-rans for the long term, maybe scraping a seat at the CL draw on a random basis. And people calling that progress.

[Mac76]

I kind of get whet you are saying, but let's face it, the owners have spent money. I'm not sure that its 100% fair to label the ownership as not prepared to invest. Most people saw the case for bringing in a young manager and giving him some time to build sustained success, non?

i think 99% of criticism of the Kroenkes is rubbish, they have financially backed the club

their biggest mistake is trusting people they thought were experts to get it right - instead Raul was a total crook just filling his agent mates' pockets

Josh in particular is apparently taking more of an interest and I think was the force behind gettign Raul out of the club, then they put that guy Lewis in to steady the ship

admittedly we still bought Willian which was a really bad move but that's still the club management getting things wrong, not the owners.

it doesn't matter how much money you put in, if the management waste it all on duds like Pepe and Willian and probably Arteta himself, then what's the point?

[Niall_Quinn]

The sell Pepe wagon is gathering speed. Personally I was on the don't buy him in the first place, especially for 70 million quid, wagon. But that horse bolted, leaving the wagon stranded. If we sell Pepe, what difference will it make? Are we buying Messi to replace him? It will take a player of that calibre to single-handedly raise the attacking profile of the team. We could go after Dwayne Dibley again, I suppose. Or some other past target like we usually do. But what difference would it make? Might as well keep Pepe and hope Arteta twigs that the shitball we are playing isn't going to bring out the best in any player, including Auba as it turns out.

[Bumble]

What is the objective of arteta. If he is to blood academy players as a main goal then thats fair enough and think the fans can buy into it if the club are open and honest about. With guys like saka nelson amn willock nkieteh etc then mid table for a season isnt so bid. The football is dull, i wouldnt say we are cohesive but organised. Arteta was brought to organise the team. That has happened. But beyond that we are relying on a bit of magic for a goal and we dont have those players.

If the aim is blooding youngsters then stick with arteta as any more experienced manager wouldnt want to do that.

[Mac76]

Apparently he only subbed Willian at HT because he had a muscular problem, it wasn't even tactical...

[IBK]

Well, sure.
But it's also reasonable to think that a club of Arsenal's stature shouldn't be where a rookie manager cuts their teeth.

Perhaps - but that was the decision made, and what's more (1) he has had to cope with upheaval on many fronts that would have been difficult for even an experienced manager to cope with; (2) he was clearly bought with a long term vision in hand; (3) whatever we think about the current malaise of the team, a u-turn before he has had sufficient time for his project to bear fruit would only be disruptive. My view is that Arsenal will never get to where it wants to be by being short termist and we do need to see through the decision made...

[IBK]

The fans and the sponsors have provided money that has been misspent, that much I'd agree with. I'm not even suggesting we waste more money, not at this stage. It's the attitude that has to change. People are saying it's great that Arteta has pulled the team together into a more cohesive unit. True, he has. But what the hell? Isn't that what a team is supposed to be all about anyway? We're giving him a thumbs up for doing the absolute bare minimum, just because we had managers before that couldn't even achieve that much? I'm not criticising Arteta for doing his job, and I haven't been calling for his head. But I'm not getting excited about square one either.

I don't think it would make a blind bit of difference who we brought in while the attitude at every level of this club is so rancid. I think we might need a priest rather than a manager to solve the problems. Cast out all thoughts about scraping into a CL competition we don't stand a chance of competing in as some form of success. That's what got us into this decline in the first place, Wenger's Top 4 Trophy as we slid into this inevitable mid-table status, which people were warning about (myself included) for years, and being laughed out of the room for saying it.

With the current attitude remaining in place (second best is 1% from glory, don't lose rather than strive to win), a rookie manager that seems to appreciate the basics but shows no sign of taking it beyond that, so far, and owners that treat the whole affair as an exercise in balancing the books - we're getting the expected outcome. How could it be any different? If the manager is not going to change (because there's no point) and the owners aren't going to change then the attitude has to change. It has to become realistic rather than purely optimistic. It has to be about what must happen and how it will happen rather than what we hope could happen.

If I could hear Arteta essentially saying, fuck, we play shit, boring, pointless, soulless garbage and that needs to change pronto because that's not going to get us anywhere, then I might have some enthusiasm. Instead I'm hearing about the great spirit again, and I've heard all that shit before. And I'm hearing about the CL being the goal, not the title. It's unrealistic for us to win a title in short order, that's fair, but what's the PLAN for doing that, step by step? And is that plan being executed? I don't see it. The only realism I can see here is a "big" club settling down to be also-rans for the long term, maybe scraping a seat at the CL draw on a random basis. And people calling that progress.

Lots to unpick there mate.

TBF I am not sure that the owners can really be criticised for being small time in their aspirations. There was a period where they seemed disinterested and unwilling to put their hands in their pockets but I don't think we can say that now. We have spent pretty big (by reasonable, not Oligargh/Emirate state standards). The choice of management personnel has ranged from questionable to disastrous, and the churn has been astonishing since Wenger, but making mistakes at executive level is not the same as lack of ambition. I may be in a minority here, but I still feel that trying to go toe to toe with Chelsea; Manure and Citeh in spending terms would be unwise, and we have seen with our own record signings that this does not necessarily equate to success.

So where does the 'small time' attitude come from? Well I would take the view that part of this has to be realism. We won't simply spend our way to the top. There is another way of looking at our project, and that is that it is supposed to be a long term strategy for sustained success. I agree that currently the pathway to this seems unconvincing, but I maintain that we need to see how it plays out, rather than tearing it up now.

I'm not sure that Arteta is a manager who is happy to accept mediocrity. The fact that we look mediocre at present is not the same thing. Neither is having realistic short term aspirations of getting back into the top 6, following the shit show of the past few years. Is Arteta the man for the job? I don't know, but to a degree he has shown that he will not put up with players being less than committed to the cause. I am concerned about his apparent favouritism for under-performing players but I am not sure that I would put this down to lack of ambition.

As you say, there are few current signs so far of the manager being able to take it beyond the basics, but the basics were what we needed when we came in, and IMO we have not given Arteta long enough to see whether his team can evolve. If he does not have what it takes, I would not put this down to complacency.

For me there have been sufficient signs of most of our players being committed to the cause, which was not the case under Emery. I don't think you can look at Gabriel; Tierney; Bellerin; Saka; Partey; Holding and see players who are content with being second best. Auba is going through a poor patch but noone doubted his ambition last season. Same goes for Ceballos. The rest of the players - well they may well not be good enough but I am not sure that their performances indicate an attitude problem.

For me the main problem is that we have done poor transfer business and this is partly down to the churn at director of football level, and partly due simply to stupid decisions - Willian being the most stupid of all.

I think that we need to try to tease out what the issue is here, and I donlt think it is one of aspiration.

[Özim]

The guy had zero experience when we appointed him, it was a weird choice for a top club, we should at least have picked someone who had cut their teeth before joining us. For me he's proving to be hype, yes he's improved the defence but 100% at the expense of the attack which is non existent, we barely create any chances and have a very good forward line who are having less shots than Harry Maguire.

We've gone from a manager in Wenger who didn't know how to defend now to a manager who doesn't know how to attack.

On top of that there's the double standards, Ozil, Guendouzi, Martinelli and Saliba just get cut out of the team/squad but the likes of Xhaka, Mustafi, Willian can get away with whatever they want with no repercussions, it's a joke.

Last season we were largely awful, at least the performances were, Ok we finished the season well enough with this 11 men behind the ball thing and we had the rub of the green somewhat, one tactic against everyone and now we've been found out.

This guy is in way over his head and IMO doesn't have a clue what he's doing, now not only are the performances dreadful, so are the results.

But then when you employ someone with zero experience maybe it's not a great surprise when they flop spectacularly when they've never demonstrated they are capable of managing in the 1st place which should be the one of the primary requirements when employing a manager for us.

Let's face it though, this club just employed the guy they wanted all along, they wanted him before we took Emery on but it didn't happen for one reason or another, then they dubiously claimed to have done an extensive search for the right candidate only to employ a guy they'd interviewed 18 months before. Arteta didn't really earn the chance of the job as he'd never done anything to make him qualified for it.

[Mac76]

The guy had zero experience when we appointed him, it was a weird choice for a top club, we should at least have picked someone who had cut their teeth before joining us. For me he's proving to be hype, yes he's improved the defence but 100% at the expense of the attack which is non existent, we barely create any chances and have a very good forward line who are having less shots than Harry Maguire.

We've gone from a manager in Wenger who didn't know how to defend now to a manager who doesn't know how to attack.

On top of that there's the double standards, Ozil, Guendouzi, Martinelli and Saliba just get cut out of the team/squad but the likes of Xhaka, Mustafi, Willian can get away with whatever they want with no repercussions, it's a joke.

Last season we were largely awful, at least the performances were, Ok we finished the season well enough with this 11 men behind the ball thing and we had the rub of the green somewhat, one tactic against everyone and now we've been found out.

This guy is in way over his head and IMO doesn't have a clue what he's doing, now not only are the performances dreadful, so are the results.

But then when you employ someone with zero experience maybe it's not a great surprise when they flop spectacularly when they've never demonstrated they are capable of managing in the 1st place which should be the one of the primary requirements when employing a manager for us.

[selassie]

I think the biggest problem with Arsenal as it stands right now is that we do make changes, but the changes by in large are either easy choices or not doing quite enough.

To come out of two extensive searches for managers with Emery & Arteta to show for leaves a lot to be desired. We are a big club apparently and should be aiming for the very best irrespective of what it costs.

Arteta is learning on the job, that much is a fact. We just have to ride it out with him. I have seen good and bad things from Arteta, that is understandable given that he is learning on the job.

Do I think he needs to go? Not if we don't have a top class replacement lined up, do I think he should go regardless? Not really...I don't think we are that bad but we certainly need to improve and fast.

Do I think we are capable of top 4 this season? No...we are not good enough. The squad is in a mess and quite frankly we need to rebuild but we need to get it right. We already seem to be making a pigs ear out of developing some of the great young talent we have in the squad...why is Saliba being frozen out? Why is Pepe not given a sustained run in the team? What the hell has happened to Ceballos?