"Currants Bw..."

[Niall_Quinn]

Is the Guardian the most aptly named organisation in the world? And the Independent the least? It looks that way.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Prove me wrong in any instance ever. You have the history of humankind to choose from.

That would be pointless because using your rationale any kind of military or law enforcement comes under the bracket of thugs and shakedown artists.

And this is fundamentally where the unbridgeable gap there in lies between us, because I don't believe there is quantative and qualitative parity in terms of freedom (or lack thereof) between living in the UK, US, Canada or any country in Western Europe or living in Castros Cuba or the Al Saud mobster racket in Saudi Arabia.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Students mainly. Anyone against "the man" gets a T-Shirt. "The man" gets none. Pinocet doesn't really fit that list, but he did get a line in Maggie nightdresses.

The point is the students seem to think there is any difference between the left and the right, and to an extent I think this is almost encouraged.

[Kano]

The point is the students seem to think there is any difference between the left and the right, and to an extent I think this is almost encouraged.

All you have to do is put on a different colour tie and people will believe anything.

[Niall_Quinn]

That would be pointless because using your rationale any kind of military or law enforcement comes under the bracket of thugs and shakedown artists.

And this is fundamentally where the unbridgeable gap there in lies between us, because I don't believe there is quantative and qualitative parity in terms of freedom (or lack thereof) between living in the UK, US, Canada or any country in Western Europe or living in Castros Cuba or the Al Saud mobster racket in Saudi Arabia.

Let's test this to see if there is any compatibility between freedom (better termed liberty) and government.

To avoid red herrings such as your house having the benefit of being protected by the fire service by default, or your person being protected by the police by default, we go and live with a friend in a detached home on private land without a neighbour within a mile, and we resolve to have no contact with police, ambulance or any other state service regardless of what befalls us. We have no children so we don't require indoctrination services, we have no car, we literally live in a shack at the end of a neighbour's garden.

We have jobs. We rent a private, non-UK based satellite Internet service. We purchase fuel to run our own generator so we are off the grid. We collect rainwater in a barrel. We only conduct business with non-UK companies. Our payment is delivered in cash by a courier each month and we don't use banking services.

What happens if:

1. We refuse to register on the electoral roll?
2. We withhold payment of tax?

Explain how liberty works under these circumstances and what the outcome of our claim on liberty will be if we exercise that condition and refuse to comply with the state in all cases.

Next, tell me what happens if we exercise our right to self defence under these conditions?

As you can see, there is no fundamental difference between the state in the UK and the state in Castro's Cuba, other than the probability it would be harder for the state to find you in Cuba.

The state is most certainly an authoritarian entity that hires thugs to commit violence against all those who refuse to collaborate with it. How can you argue otherwise given the self evident facts?

I think your only argument can be that sovereignty reside with the monarch and we are therefore automatically subject to the authority of the monarch. Unfortunately that authority allegedly is granted directly by God - yes really, I'm not making that up. It's God that directly intervenes and raises the monarch above all others and grants him/ her the additional rights to command and govern.

But what happens if you don't believe in God?

The state is the biggest myth and the biggest scam ever perpetrated. And its main concern is in the execution of the second biggest scam ever perpetrated, the money fraud. Under these conditions it is impossible for liberty to exist.

[Goonermerree]

The Americans cut off Cuba because it's an embarassment to them, of course the detention of "enemy combatants" in Guantanamo is an affront to decency of course. I don't think taking away Habeas Corpas is right no matter who is doing it.

And America is rightly condemned for it, so should Cuba in turn be condemned for its routine human rights abuses under Fidel Castro.

Agree. Just because one lot is as bad as the other lot doesn't mean neither should be condemned for what they have done.

[Goonermerree]

Why is it you have to ask yourself that it's acceptable to have t shirts with Che Guevara, Castro or Mao on and yet if a printed tshirt with Mussolini, Hitler or Pinochet people would be up in arms.

I do think there is some kind of sense that left wing dictators and thugs are somehow more acceptable than the right wing equivalent. It's not a view I hold to, I think they are equally disgusting.

Agree with that too!

[Niall_Quinn]

The point is the students seem to think there is any difference between the left and the right, and to an extent I think this is almost encouraged.

Well there is a difference between the left and right in terms of philosophy and ideology. The modern confusion arises due to extremist left wing "centrist" organisations hijacking these philosophies and ideologies as marketing material to distinguish their indistinguishable collectivist and authoritarian agendas. The right is always a tentative thing and can only exist for limited periods, the left is what replaces it as society degrades into stability, corruption and inevitable collapse. Jesus was a right wing activist. The church his unintended left wing bastard. The "right wing fascist" Nazis were left wing socialists. The extremist British establishment ran its entire empire racket from the centre, as most racketeering empires have done. The model just keeps repeating, over and over again and to such a degree that familiarity has crushed all concept of alternatives.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Let's test this to see if there is any compatibility between freedom (better termed liberty) and government.

To avoid red herrings such as your house having the benefit of being protected by the fire service by default, or your person being protected by the police by default, we go and live with a friend in a detached home on private land without a neighbour within a mile, and we resolve to have no contact with police, ambulance or any other state service regardless of what befalls us. We have no children so we don't require indoctrination services, we have no car, we literally live in a shack at the end of a neighbour's garden.

We have jobs. We rent a private, non-UK based satellite Internet service. We purchase fuel to run our own generator so we are off the grid. We collect rainwater in a barrel. We only conduct business with non-UK companies. Our payment is delivered in cash by a courier each month and we don't use banking services.

What happens if:

1. We refuse to register on the electoral roll?
2. We withhold payment of tax?

Explain how liberty works under these circumstances and what the outcome of our claim on liberty will be if we exercise that condition and refuse to comply with the state in all cases.

Next, tell me what happens if we exercise our right to self defence under these conditions?

As you can see, there is no fundamental difference between the state in the UK and the state in Castro's Cuba, other than the probability it would be harder for the state to find you in Cuba.

The state is most certainly an authoritarian entity that hires thugs to commit violence against all those who refuse to collaborate with it. How can you argue otherwise given the self evident facts?

I think your only argument can be that sovereignty reside with the monarch and we are therefore automatically subject to the authority of the monarch. Unfortunately that authority allegedly is granted directly by God - yes really, I'm not making that up. It's God that directly intervenes and raises the monarch above all others and grants him/ her the additional rights to command and govern.

But what happens if you don't believe in God?

The state is the biggest myth and the biggest scam ever perpetrated. And its main concern is in the execution of the second biggest scam ever perpetrated, the money fraud. Under these conditions it is impossible for liberty to exist.

The point is it's all relative, you may think having to pay tax on your income or having to register on the electoral roll is the same as for instance being a hairdresser in Saddams Iraq where the Ba'ath party would expect you to inform them of the conversations your customers are having when you are cutting their hair, and suspicion will fall on you if you don't at least report some of those customers for having made a subversive remark (regardless of whether they did or didn't).
Knowing that in that respect you face the choice of torture/imprisonment or worse or inflicting it indirectly on other people so as to shield yourself from that fate.
You can tell yourself you are living in a state of constant invigilitation and terror because you will be fined for not registering on the electoral roll, or be punished for refusing to pay tax on services whether you use them or not. You make think that's comparable to a totalitarian existence, you may think the methodology is different but the outcome is the same but I don't and I don't think the people who escaped such states to live in western democracies would agree with you either.
This is the unbridgeable gap, I take no issue with libertarianism in itself even if I don't believe it to be practical (and certainly not currently) but I'm not in fear of summary execution or torture, I can say what I like (even with the liberal political correctness agenda that's gone too far I'm only in fear of being slightly ostracised) and in return I have to make a contribution to the society in which I lived monetarily......that's how it is, if you want to see me as a slave who is glad of his chains than I doubt anything I've said will convince you otherwise.
I would only suggest that futility works both ways.

[GP]

President elect, folks.