Match Reaction vs Mongs

[AFC Leveller]

Im able to see things from both sides's point of view. Ozim makes some good points and so do the likes of Letters and Quinn but ultimately our shortcomings on the pitch are down to the players, bad management, bad tactics and in certain games a mental block.

[IBK]

You have the answer right there in front of you, Letters. It all stems from the frustration of always getting close, but then finding some way to fuck up when the pressure is on.

Patience has worn thin among the fanbase and, the fickle bastards we are, most won't hesitate to call for Wenger's head the minute we seemingly start faltering.

I think it is further compounded by the fact that we bottled it against relegation fodder. Even more frustrating considering that we knew we needed to keep pace by winning these easier set of fixtures leading up to the blitz of tougher opponents, if we wanted to be in with a shout towards the end.

We went out against the orcs and just never looked like winning. This is something which has been plaguing us for quite a while now and I think it's only fair that some fans see only one common denominator in all this.

I've wanted Wenger gone for some time now, but the respect, admiration and gratitude I developed for the man when he revolutionised our club, the BPL and club football in general, made it a bit easy for me to tentatively throw some support behind him when it looked like he was ready to challenge the big boys. But then, as the season progressed, that old feeling of deja vu slowly seeped in as the same cock ups began to recur.

I'd love for him to leave on his own terms, whenever he chooses to. Leave on a high, flaunting the league title in the face of his detractors, but sadly, I don't think he has it in him anymore. All belief has been dashed, as I think he's gotten us as far as he can.

All's not lost though, and when he walks, he will have made a great club greater, leaving them in the enviable position of being self made and standing on solid footing. Absolutely nothing for him to be ashamed of.

Apart from the Wenger out aspect - you make some good points here. Its the grinding repetitiveness of what happens season after season that is the issue here. From where I sit - I don't see too many Gooners knee-jerking about Wenger. Many, like you appreciate the sacrifices the club had to make throughout the stadium project, and value the massive amount that Wenger has done for our club (though I do think it's worth remembering what he has received in return over and above the money). The frustration comes from seeing how much more the manager could have achieved from the base he has built over the past few years had he made one or two small adjustments in his approach. And I agree 100% that results such as last weekend's are quite rightly - against the backdrop of what has come before - seen as indications of fundamental flaws in Wenger's teams or tactics, rather than being able to be dismissed as 'one off's.

[IBK]

There are some fairly logical reasons for thinking Wenger's taken us as far as he can and we should look elsewhere.
What annoys me is the hysteria.

Had we won on Saturday we'd be a point off the top of the table. I seriously doubt anyone would have been calling for Wenger's head then.
Fine, we lost, but that result shouldn't be the difference between Wenger and Wenger
I appreciate that one result is against a backdrop of 9 years of ups and downs and no trophies but at the start of the season, especially after the Villa game, the issue was could we stay in the top 4. No-one seriously expected a title challenge this year, that shouldn't be the criteria for success this year. IMO we've done very well to stay up there as long as we have. I am concerned about a massive collapse and if that happens then the progress we seemed to be making will disappear. Right now though we're 12 points ahead of where we were last year and we're in the FA Cup quarter final with a winnable home tie.
Concerns about the 'big games', squad depth and the ability to last a season remain and we can only really assess where we are in May.
Right now though no-one would sack their manager based on how we've done this year so far.

Personally, I think calls to sack Wenger - even in the context of all that has gone before - are wide of the mark, and he stays at the end of the season even if we end the season fourth and lose this weekend.

But I think that some 'truisms' relied on by those who defend Wenger need looking at. The first is the defeatism of bemoaning the billionaire teams - that I've dealt with on the other thread. The second is looking at expectations before the start of the season to assess the position of the team now. Before the season, we:

- Had no idea that Ozil would be signed
- Could not have guessed at Ramsey's improvement
- Would have regarded the prospect of Merts and Kossy staying fit as they have as unrealistic
- Could not have anticipated the importance of Flamini, or that he would join us on a free
- Would have laughed at the idea that Arsenal would be top of the league for a couple of months
- Could not have anticipated how bad Manure would be, or how many soft points Citeh would drop away from home

For me, its as legitimate to look at where we were in December as to look at where we were in August last year. And we could, and should have made a better fist of defending our lead than we have done. Liverpool now have a decent chance of challenging for the title given their form and momentum - their expectations prior to the season would have been lower than our's - particularly given the possibility of losing their star striker. Does that mean that they won't do everything they can to sieze their opportunity? Of course not.

We have choked this season, from a position of strength, as we have choked in so many seasons for the past decade. You say that winning the title should not be the criterion for success this year. Given the length of time Wenger has had to mould his team; our new found financial strength, the teething problems of those teams that have traditionally finished above us, the fact that we had clear water behind us in the Premiership as late as December, and our record in the second half of last season - should we have regarded winning the league as acriteria for success - hell yes!

I'm coming round rapidly to the belief that Wenger has indeed lowered fans' expectations so much that our first reaction is to look at excuses for failure rather than at reasons why we should succeed. And what's more I think that this attitude is becoming ingrained in a number of his players.

[fakeyank]

Personally, I think calls to sack Wenger - even in the context of all that has gone before - are wide of the mark, and he stays at the end of the season even if we end the season fourth and lose this weekend.

But I think that some 'truisms' relied on by those who defend Wenger need looking at. The first is the defeatism of bemoaning the billionaire teams - that I've dealt with on the other thread. The second is looking at expectations before the start of the season to assess the position of the team now. Before the season, we:

- Had no idea that Ozil would be signed
- Could not have guessed at Ramsey's improvement
- Would have regarded the prospect of Merts and Kossy staying fit as they have as unrealistic
- Could not have anticipated the importance of Flamini, or that he would join us on a free
- Would have laughed at the idea that Arsenal would be top of the league for a couple of months
- Could not have anticipated how bad Manure would be, or how many soft points Citeh would drop away from home

For me, its as legitimate to look at where we were in December as to look at where we were in August last year. And we could, and should have made a better fist of defending our lead than we have done. Liverpool now have a decent chance of challenging for the title given their form and momentum - their expectations prior to the season would have been lower than our's - particularly given the possibility of losing their star striker. Does that mean that they won't do everything they can to sieze their opportunity? Of course not.

We have choked this season, from a position of strength, as we have choked in so many seasons for the past decade. You say that winning the title should not be the criterion for success this year. Given the length of time Wenger has had to mould his team; our new found financial strength, the teething problems of those teams that have traditionally finished above us, the fact that we had clear water behind us in the Premiership as late as December, and our record in the second half of last season - should we have regarded winning the league as acriteria for success - hell yes!

I'm coming round rapidly to the belief that Wenger has indeed lowered fans' expectations so much that our first reaction is to look at excuses for failure rather than at reasons why we should succeed. And what's more I think that this attitude is becoming ingrained in a number of his players.