Arsenal on the slide?

[Boss]

Although I think we are on a slide in terms of reputation and will find it very hard to make top four this season, I expect this to change when Wenger leaves / is thrown out. Even though I don't believe he has the capability to win trophies anymore, even with the financial fair play rules coming into play, I think a competent manager would and they will ultimately benefit us far more than they will any other club.

[Kano]

It would certainly help if we were winning, in terms of money they would bring to the club (in terms of commercial revenue, sponsorship and prize money) and of course in terms of transfer value of a player.

I don't see why players like Denilson, Bendtner etc should get big money when they've achieved nothing in the game, you have to at least earn your salary not have it handed on a plate to you.

players are not bashed because they are not driving revenue into the club, no fan really cares about that too much

no footballer earns their money, none of em

[Coney]

We are definitely on the slide. We only need to look at results in the last 5 years to see that we have stagnated, committing the same mistakes season after season and losing steam in the title race around March/April time. Every season we don't take the FA Cup seriously and go out in the 5th/6th rounds. We did well in the Carling Cup this season, but again, when it came to the crunch, we failed again. The Champions League shows we are not good enough against Europe's elites, and it's relatively predictable that we will go out in the Quarters every season.

You could argue, how can we be on the slide if we're simply stagnating? The thing is, teams like Liverpool, City, Spurs are looking to improve on the back of impressive seasons (end of season in Liverpool's case). The teams above us are not sitting on their laurels and are continually looking to improve themselves. While we have a squad of spoilt, overpaid footballers, many of whom have a higher opinion of themselves than their performances justify. Quite a few of our first team players are looking to leave (Clichy, Cesc, Nasri), while others have made noises about leaving (Denilson, Bendtner)

I'm not that concerned about the players leaving, because IMO they are cowards who were as responsible for our underachievements as anyone else. However, the lack of incoming players is a worry, and the fact that, in that article that you posted, the author claims that we offered Phil Jones higher wages than United (and a higher transfer fee) shows how far we have fallen in status, and the detrimental effect of this is that we are much less competitive in the transfer market. To put it in language that Wenger and our corporate board will understand, our lack of success has reduced the "brand value", making it harder to entice potential "customers".

I agree with the article in that a complete culture change is needed. We need players who can combine quality with substance, who are willing to run through brick walls and who do not rest on their laurels, and are intelligent enough to realise that a few good performances doesn't make you the dog's bollocks. Those players are available on the market, and do not have to cost the earth (look at Sagna and Vermaelen for instance) If Wenger took his head out of his arse, perhaps he'd see that.

I don't agree we are not good enough against Europe's elites. We can and did beat manu and chavs and I don't see people making the same comments about them. We did better (4-3) against Barca - who are almost in a league of their own - whereas manu managed only 3-1 and were just as much pushed out of the game as we were - possession stats for manu and the Arsenal against Barca were similar at about 2:1 ratio. We got bounced out of the CL this year because we drew Barca in the first knock-out round. Had manu or chavs drawn them they would have got crapped on two (yeah - ignore the fact we came second in the group stage - the point is when you draw a team like that in whatever round, you stand a high chance of being screwed.)

As Letters said earlier, we have stagnated but the other teams have not stormed ahead really. Not only in the PL but also not in the CL. Again, had the ball not fallen to Bendtner in the second Barca game but to Nasri or VP, we might well have gone through 4-4 on agregate and a lot of the verbage we have seen on GW would not have happened. Barca might have dominated the games we played against them but they did not put us to the sword by scoring 10 goals against us. If that had been the Arsenal, we would have had a ton of comments about us dominating play but not converting it into goals. Well, against us, Barca did not score anything like the number of goals they should have in proportion to their possession. Same was true when they played manu, if it comes to that.

[Boss]

players are not bashed because they are not driving revenue into the club, no fan really cares about that too much

no footballer earns their money, none of em

Top players more than earn the money they're paid.

[Kano]

well thats a minority pov

[Coney]

Players are not paid for playing football as they were in the past. The are paid as entertainers because that is what TV is making the game become and as such, they are the rock stars of the genre so the wages reflect that. (And like rock stars they have agents to feed and they are extremely greedy bastards).

[Kano]

yeah id agree with that

[selassie]

Yes, I know - what we all need is another depressing article on the state of affairs at AFC. But over the past couple of seasons, I have started to think about trends, and whether, rather than a period of 'rebuilding' what we are seeing at AFC is the gradual decline - certainly of a once great manager, but even of our status as a proper, top club.

I wonder what it must have felt like at Liverpool - in the years after 89/90 - or Villa in the mid 1980's. I am sure that their fans thought that they were just a couple of signings away from a return to the top - that getting in the right manager would see the glory days return - just like many of us now. Of course I realise that our commercial basis is relatively sound - and that direct comparisons are difficult - but the competition is arguably a lot stronger now.

What is quite shocking ATM is the sheer depth of negativity and lack of hope that surrounds our club. This is clearly the case amongst the players as well as the fans. There is, and has been, an air of misery about the place for a while now - one that brings to mind a relegated club rather than one (hopefully) playing CL football next season.

I know I will be labelled 'knee jerk' or a band-waggoner by some - but to me the Arsenal spirit itself is deserting the club. This article http://www.onlinegooner.com/article....lusive&id=2331 from the Online Gooner last Saturday presents a view about what is happening at Arsenal that at present its very difficult not to sympathise with.

Thoughts?

Really interesting thread.

We've no doubt stagnated...not quite sure that we're in decline yet but we're fast approaching it and have to be very very careful about the direction we take as a football club this summer.

What is clear is that the Current Policy from a footballing point of view, be it results, mentality & squad harmony doesn't work, it's failed...it's a vision that is clearly flawed and has to change, whether it has to change permanently is one that the manager has to answer but this policy hasn't & will not work with the current set of players we have.

It's quite simplistic to solely point the blame at the manager but there are a number of things that I believe need to change at the club in order for the football team to progress. I'm afraid to say a lot of our ideals & policies are very much stuck in the 90's and you will only get away with achieving the bare minimum for so long. This team is very much in danger of missing out on CL football altogether if some of the policies at the club are not changed/modified.

A lot of these changes I would like to see are in one way or another financially driven, investing more money in the playing squad for me is the no.1 priority and distributing it properly as oppose to having this crazy "everyone is equal" structure that is purely based on ideology. A lot of our policies are based on ideology and they must change, this is not how a successful business operates & it's certainly not how a successful football team operates.

[Coney]

Really interesting thread.

We've no doubt stagnated...not quite sure that we're in decline yet but we're fast approaching it and have to be very very careful about the direction we take as a football club this summer.

What is clear is that the Current Policy from a footballing point of view, be it results, mentality & squad harmony doesn't work, it's failed...it's a vision that is clearly flawed and has to change, whether it has to change permanently is one that the manager has to answer but this policy hasn't & will not work with the current set of players we have.

It's quite simplistic to solely point the blame at the manager but there are a number of things that I believe need to change at the club in order for the football team to progress. I'm afraid to say a lot of our ideals & policies are very much stuck in the 90's and you will only get away with achieving the bare minimum for so long. This team is very much in danger of missing out on CL football altogether if some of the policies at the club are not changed/modified.

A lot of these changes I would like to see are in one way or another financially driven, investing more money in the playing squad for me is the no.1 priority and distributing it properly as oppose to having this crazy "everyone is equal" structure that is purely based on ideology. A lot of our policies are based on ideology and they must change, this is not how a successful business operates & it's certainly not how a successful football team operates.

I agree, especially the parts in bold.

[Olivier's xmas twist]

Yes, I know - what we all need is another depressing article on the state of affairs at AFC. But over the past couple of seasons, I have started to think about trends, and whether, rather than a period of 'rebuilding' what we are seeing at AFC is the gradual decline - certainly of a once great manager, but even of our status as a proper, top club.

I wonder what it must have felt like at Liverpool - in the years after 89/90 - or Villa in the mid 1980's. I am sure that their fans thought that they were just a couple of signings away from a return to the top - that getting in the right manager would see the glory days return - just like many of us now. Of course I realise that our commercial basis is relatively sound - and that direct comparisons are difficult - but the competition is arguably a lot stronger now.

What is quite shocking ATM is the sheer depth of negativity and lack of hope that surrounds our club. This is clearly the case amongst the players as well as the fans. There is, and has been, an air of misery about the place for a while now - one that brings to mind a relegated club rather than one (hopefully) playing CL football next season.

I know I will be labelled 'knee jerk' or a band-waggoner by some - but to me the Arsenal spirit itself is deserting the club. This article http://www.onlinegooner.com/article....lusive&id=2331 from the Online Gooner last Saturday presents a view about what is happening at Arsenal that at present its very difficult not to sympathise with.

Thoughts?

Article is spot on. I like the bit about Song, just goes to show how arrogant our players really are.