General Football Nonsense

[HCZ_Reborn]

Did you see his first reply?
You can disagree with his thesis, but he did give an answer.
Isn't one factor that a lot of the players aren't English, that's going to translate in to who goes through to become a coach or manager.

Well to paraphrase the whole thing started because he doesn’t like being thought of as a soy boy/woketard whatever

I’ve never really chided him for being woke, it’s more the unthinking lefty tribalism (you can be left wing without being woke)

It’s really an ongoing issue where he has it in his head that England is this parochial yet triumphalist backwater, and I point out that patriotism is a feature of most countries and that the reason the left have never got a stronger foothold in Britain (as opposed to the more social democratic version we’ve had) is because of the middle class intellectual vanguard that regarded itself as the liberator of the working classes whilst never really liking or understanding them that much

In fact there are days where it would be easier just to produce an image of a paperback copy of Orwell’s Road to Wigan Pier when he opens his mouth on the matter

[Mac76]

Well to paraphrase the whole thing started because he doesn’t like being thought of as a soy boy/woketard whatever

I’ve never really chided him for being woke, it’s more the unthinking lefty tribalism (you can be left wing without being woke)

It’s really an ongoing issue where he has it in his head that England is this parochial yet triumphalist backwater, and I point out that patriotism is a feature of most countries and that the reason the left have never got a stronger foothold in Britain (as opposed to the more social democratic version we’ve had) is because of the middle class intellectual vanguard that regarded itself as the liberator of the working classes whilst never really liking or understanding them that much

In fact there are days where it would be easier just to produce an image of a paperback copy of Orwell’s Road to Wigan Pier when he opens his mouth on the matter

all of which is absolute tosh, I made a remark about English football managers not the general population (of which I'm part btw, so where does that leave you?), there's you projecting your own narrow-minded caricatures onto people because you just don't the intellectual range to understand that each person is different, not a cypher

[HCZ_Reborn]

so why are there plenty of managers from overseas, I realise the PL might be one of the better-paid leaguess but given there's loads of Spanish, Itailan and German coachces, all of whom must have earnt a bob or two in their careers, your reply doesn't work?

Again I’m only offering an explanation for why English players aren’t becoming coaches at the end of their careers.

I can’t speak as to why players from other countries are still wanting to get into coaching. I’d also add because of the money involved in the premier league we want the finished product who has already made their bones in a foreign league, Arteta in terms of a club like us being his first gig is almost unheard of.

But yeah of course your explanation that England is culturally or educationally backward makes far more sense. And if you’re an example of it….maybe you’re not 100% wrong

[HCZ_Reborn]

all of which is absolute tosh, I made a remark about English football managers not the general population (of which I'm part btw, so where does that leave you?), there's you projecting your own narrow-minded caricatures onto people because you just don't the intellectual range to understand that each person is different, not a cypher

I don’t think everyone is a cipher. But you are. Your anti-English screed on here is a constant.


The argument started because the point was being made about lack of English coaches at the top level. The reason is negate there aren’t that many English coaches full stop. So when you have plodding dullards like Lampard and Gerrard getting fast tacked it’s because people are desperate to see an English coach succeed


Now doubtless I think there are things that need to change, just as young English players need to be prepared to go abroad to make their bones (and there was a clear interregnum period between Hoddle etc doing it and what we have now which is the odd English player plying their trade abroad before they even make a name for themselves)

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal have been fined £65,000 for failing to control their players after Myles Lewis-Skelly was sent off during their Premier League win at Wolves.

The Football Association (FA) charged Arsenal with failing to ensure their players "did not behave in an improper manner," at Molineux on 25 January.

I trust this will be applied to everyone for the remainder?

[HCZ_Reborn]

I trust this will be applied to everyone for the remainder?

Well will be interesting to see how Liverpool are punished for failing to control their players at end of Merseyside Derby

Barely got a mention in the media, which is not a surprise as there’s been a long established trend of the media being in the tank for Liverpool.

[IBK]

While I know it will shatter everyone's tired cliches about me... I'm not at all sure - people who are promoted for reasons other than their ability can be counter-productive to what you're trying to do, maybe it would be better for the FA to fund places on couching courses to minority players or something like that

But as far as I understand it, this is an initiative rather than a set quota. I have both stated my opposition to quotas and my disbelief that given the preponderance of ethnic minority footballers there are so few in management positions. I am not suggesting that people be promoted for reasons other than ability.

Also, why the debate about the EPL only? The initiative is an FA one, not a Premiership one? Plenty of Engish managers in all 4 top leagues. But Among the 92 clubs in the top four tiers of English football, there are currently just two black managers. Do people really believe that this is becuase minority candidates lack the requisite ability?

[HCZ_Reborn]

In fairness to Mac, I got the impression that he only expressed the belief that a system that would involve quotas might invariably end up with accusations of tokenism rather than making it on merit.

Quotas can often be a way of short cutting the process.

There is of course no reason to believe that someone of a certain ethnic minority lacks coaching ability anymore than someone who is white. I would be interested to know why a lot of prominent black English players for example who are vastly over represented relative to the Afro-Carribean population, do not seek to become coaches. Do they assume there will be resistance from authorities not even explicitly but a kind of what’s now called unconscious bias.

[IBK]

In fairness to Mac, I got the impression that he only expressed the belief that a system that would involve quotas might invariably end up with accusations of tokenism rather than making it on merit.

Quotas can often be a way of short cutting the process.

There is of course no reason to believe that someone of a certain ethnic minority lacks coaching ability anymore than someone who is white. I would be interested to know why a lot of prominent black English players for example who are vastly over represented relative to the Afro-Carribean population, do not seek to become coaches. Do they assume there will be resistance from authorities not even explicitly but a kind of what’s now called unconscious bias.

In that case - fair enough to Mac. And as an ethnic minority myself I hate that fixed quota systems lead to an assumption (sometimes justified) that the beneficiary is not there on merit.

I think that your theory re black coaches may indeed have a lot of truth in it. There can be a lot of self-regulation in these matters - an assumption that 'someone like me' does not become a football coach. A good example of an analogous situation within football is the clubs that have traditionally been regarded as welcoming for black fans...don't think many ethnic minority fans were flocking to Millwall back in the day.

I guess another might be the preponderance of white men from the North west in refereeing?

[HCZ_Reborn]

That’s quite a recent thing (not the white men, but white men from the north west)

20 or so years ago, you had the likes of Poll, Bennett, Barber, Dirkin, Elleray who were all southerners so it felt like there wasn’t an over representation of one particular geographic area

Not quite sure why there is this surfeit of people from the north west now.