Coronavirus Pandemic

[Letters]

When it is a protest that affects their interests or those who fund them, those protestors will face the full force of the law.

Well, maybe. I'm not convinced although I may be naïve.
Aren't all protests about things the government isn't doing or doesn't want to do? I don't believe they will be outlawed or cracked down upon.
There are certainly dangers here and potential for abuse. My gut feel is it won't make as much difference as some people think.

[Niall_Quinn]

I've agreed the 4 bills are of potential concern, but I've also said I don't think they will actually make any difference to your day to day life, or mine.
Your objections are ideological, not practical.
As I said, these bills didn't stop a load of people protesting over Christmas. What happened to those people? Did they all get rounded up? Are they in prison? No, of course not.

And sure, some people have used this crisis to enrich themselves. I've never disputed that. Twas ever thus.

But you're shifting goalposts. You know the sorts of dystopian things you were predicting. None of them happened - certainly not here, and you were clearly talking about things going on in this country and how that would progress. The reality is restrictions have been imposed and removed as the data dictated. You can have a sensible debate about whether they did that in the right way and at the right times. But it's a stretch to think that any of it was a slide into a totalitarian or authoritarian regime. They were clearly responding to a situation and that response changed over time. Which is why, now numbers have dropped since Christmas and it's increasingly clear that Omicron is less serious, it looks like Boris is about to announce a further lifting of restrictions (which are very light touch right now anyway).

Why is it so important for you to perpetuate the lie? I specifically said, some people will not accept the shifting realities until they see Nazis stomping down their own street and banging on their doors. You know this. But, for some reason, you need to cling to the idea the very principles of the relationship between government and the governed have not been ripped to shreds over the past 2 years (more gradually over the past half century). Why is it so very important for you to deny this is happening? Are you afraid of what's occurring and compensating by pretending all is as it was before? Just because your own door hasn't been smashed in yet?

Every single act of authoritarianism that is waived past without complaint (or even applauded by some) is another brick to build the prison. It's not even the extreme examples we've seen all around the world and yes, most certainly in this country too. It's almost everything now. It's tax season, for example. When you sit down and actually think about taxation, look at the details, look at the costs and benefits and outcomes, it's genuinely shocking. It's absolutely absurd and shameful the people have allowed themselves to be chained like this. Yet most, who simply refuse to look, will point at a hospital and say it's worth it. Right before the hospital kicks them on to an 18 month waiting list in the hope they'll die in the meantime.

Simple, simple things that can't be avoided and yet are somehow avoided by so many. Obvious, day to day and certainly practical things. Like trying to get an appointment with a doctor or a dentist. Walking into a supermarket with the pennies that haven't been snatched to buy a ton of packaging containing ever reducing portions, all at inflated prices. Looking at the petrol prices which are mostly tax these days. Look all around you, everywhere? Nothing has affected you? You can't see it all heading in one direction?

What are you saving up for? A grand economic boom and a parade to celebrate liberty restored?

It's not coming. You can't see the troops march down your street (even though they are there in every new proposal, every new bill that flies unscrutinised, every disgraceful and despicable law, every human rights abuse, every tip of the unbalanced scales of injustice, every act of overt censorship, every witch hunt that corners and pulps a dissenter), but with enough complacency they won't even need to stomp because people will volunteer to construct the prison for themselves.

The next cash and power grab will dwarf all the others. 2001, 2008, 2020 - chicken feed compared to what comes next. Because we have a planet to save - right? Strange you can't see the state marching down your street and into your home but you can see the floods and the fires and the hurricanes and ice melt, though the pensioners freezing in their homes and the people eating bugs are a little blurry.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well, maybe. I'm not convinced although I may be naïve.
Aren't all protests about things the government isn't doing or doesn't want to do? I don't believe they will be outlawed or cracked down upon.
There are certainly dangers here and potential for abuse. My gut feel is it won't make as much difference as some people think.

14 different propaganda and psychological warfare departments/ units were deployed to manage the messaging and advise on strategy during the pandemic. You should think about that. We could have honest and transparent leadership and open debate, or covert operatives, misinformation, disinformation and censorship. When did we ever get the former? Hence the latter. Not all protests are alike. Some are the blind shouting at the ignorant being led by the profiteer. The smaller, quieter, sometimes shamefully absent protests - like a protest against 33K kids dying a day for lack of a drink of water - are likely the ones refused a license.

[Globalgunner]

You spend too much energy trying to rescue a lost ship. Let it sink. It wants to anyways.

[Letters]

Why is it so important for you to perpetuate the lie?

What lie? You DID make some quite dystopian predictions. Not only did those not come true, the exact opposite has happened.
Instead of the increasing restrictions you predicted, most if not all have now been removed.

I specifically said, some people will not accept the shifting realities until they see Nazis stomping down their own street and banging on their doors. You know this.

I do. You said that some time after you made those predictions but yes, you did say that and I responded.
My response was that I want to some evidence they're coming and I don't see any. If you're telling me there's a storm coming then show me there's a cloud in the sky. You could argue that the Covid restrictions were big black clouds, but they've mostly cleared up now. In fact just tonight Boris has announced that the Plan B restrictions will be removed next week - mandatory face coverings in public places and Covid passports are both being dropped.

But, for some reason, you need to cling to the idea the very principles of the relationship between government and the governed have not been ripped to shreds over the past 2 years (more gradually over the past half century). Why is it so very important for you to deny this is happening?

Explain what you mean by this. How has the relationship changed? If anything I'd say the public and the media have become significantly less deferential to the government over the last 60 years. I've seen clips of old interviews with politicians which were very respectful and deferential, there's far more holding them to account now. What's happened over the last 2 years is that the government have exercised powers in an unprecedented way - or certainly since the War. Those powers have always existed but in normal times our government doesn't exercise them. But the last 2 years has been anything but normal.

Are you afraid of what's occurring and compensating by pretending all is as it was before? Just because your own door hasn't been smashed in yet?

Whose door has been smashed in? What do you think has actually changed in the relationship between government and governed.

Every single act of authoritarianism that is waived past without complaint (or even applauded by some) is another brick to build the prison.

That's only true if there is a clear direction of travel towards authoritarianism. But there isn't. Restrictions have been imposed and removed as the situation has changed.

You have ideological issues with taxation, but it's hardly a new thing. I don't have a problem with the principle of it, although I would agree that our tax money is not spent in an optimal way. And I believe that the NHS is, overall, a good thing. But it's in a mess due to underfunding and it being admin and management heavy. I don't have an issue with the principle of us being taxed and in return getting infrastructure and services. I don't know how else a modern complex society could function.

Look all around you, everywhere? Nothing has affected you?

Not really. I mean, obviously the pandemic restrictions affected me, they affected everyone. But I always believed that they were a temporary response to an extreme situation. As I said we can certainly debate whether they were the right response, but I never saw it as a slide into an authoritarian dystopia. And given that the light touch restrictions still in place are being removed next week, I reckon I got that one right.

You can't see it all heading in one direction?

Not really. I'm not clear what you're getting at here. The rest of your post seems to be more predictions about the future. With respect, your record there isn't great. And I'm not having a go at you about that, none of us know what will happen. But you seem to have a strange ability to predict things, see the opposite of your predictions happen and maintain an unshakeable confidence in your abilities to know what's what.

The reason you got things wrong in that post about the army and curfews is that you have an underlying assumption that "they" are out to get us. But they aren't. And no, that doesn't mean they're bending over backwards to help us, those aren't the only two possibilities. There's a sensible middle ground where sure, the government is corrupt, incompetent and self-serving but not actually trying to control us to the degree you suppose. I think the truth lies in that middle ground. If they wanted to exert more control then they had the perfect excuse to over the last month with case numbers through the roof. But they didn't because they have no interest in doing so unless they really feel it's wanted in exceptional circumstances. That was true a year ago with hospitals creaking and deaths way above average. It isn't true now.

You think I'm cheering them on as they build a prison. I think you're railing against being in prison while the door is wide open.

[Niall_Quinn]

The deceit in that post is almost beyond belief. It's like a response to something entirely different to what was originally posted. And it shows a level of denial that is unexpected, even for you. You are absolutely incapable of looking, or even thinking, beyond the message. Everything you have said above is the stock response to issues you yourself replaced to avoid talking about the issues I actually raised. It's psychotic.

I think, in the end, a fairly large segment of the population has to be written off.

[Niall_Quinn]

You spend too much energy trying to rescue a lost ship. Let it sink. It wants to anyways.

The joke here is I'm trying not to leave a Christian [sic] behind. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Niall_Quinn]

ONS ("The Data") forced to confirm the scam so a handful of others could share in a 14 trillion dollar transfer of wealth. This is the inevitable conclusion whether people wet the bed over it or just accept what has become increasingly obvious. And tens of thousands more will die from the fallout.

The earlier FOI:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...ingcauses?s=09

Will get the latest one when available. Trials and executions need to commence now. There are international laws that have long covered these types of crimes.

EDIT: Around 17K deaths FROM covid to date. In line with findings from Italy and the US. Average age of covid casualties - higher than the national life expectancy (same as in Ireland, probably same as most nations). What an outrageous scam.

[Letters]

The deceit in that post is almost beyond belief.

What deceit? Come on, don't just state stuff like that - if you're going to accuse me of deceit then spell it out. Where have I deceived you or anyone else?
We've had this conversation. If you continue to insist on thinking the worst of me then we cannot have a sensible conversation.
After Gary stepped in I have toned it down, you have too but it's a shame you continue to accuse me of deceit which implies I am actively trying to mislead people.

It's like a response to something entirely different to what was originally posted.

Honestly, that's kinda how I feel about your posts.
But OK, if I've misunderstood you then explain how. I've asked a couple of times above for you to clarify things you've said. For example, you said:
"[I'm denying that] the very principles of the relationship between government and the governed have not been ripped to shreds over the past 2 years"
Have they? Explain how.

And it shows a level of denial that is unexpected, even for you.

What am I denying?

You are absolutely incapable of looking, or even thinking, beyond the message.

I'd suggest you are incapable of introspection. At the start of all this you were on board with the restrictions but then you started falling down conspiracy theory rabbit holes, fuelled by your slight paranoia that "they" are out to get you.
You claimed that the 10pm closing time for pubs was to soften us up for curfews. You claimed that the army on the streets in Birmingham (to deliver tests, if I recall correctly) was to soften us up for the army on the streets.
You predicted curfews and checkpoints, you predicted the tests would become mandatory.
None of that happened.

There was the Covid Pass, but even then I got one of those while I was testing positive, I just didn't report the positive test. Not out of any desire to evade the law, I just didn't bother to. The whole Covid Pass thing seemed to be based entirely on people 'fessing up. All you had to do is say you had a negative test - note, just say you did, you didn't need to provide any evidence - and that was basically good enough. And when I did get to the event which required a Covid Pass the bloke took a cursory look and that was it, anyone could have taken a screenshot of theirs and sent it to me and I'd have been waved through. And from next week the Covid Pass is being rolled back anyway.
This is the authoritarian regime I'm supposed to be worried about, is it? Come on, dude.
Elsewhere you said:

You can point at the law that quite openly decrees protests of more than 2 people are illegal. Or visiting your elderly relative in a care home is prohibited. Or the state mandating who may or may not enter your own private home, etc, etc. Literally in your face but some people will say, no, no, no, it's all a mistake

I wouldn't say "no, no, no". I'd say "yes, but". And the but is - those were temporary restrictions designed to deal with a temporary and extraordinary situation.
As I keep saying, you can debate whether the restrictions were the right ones at the right times, but you can't sensibly continue to claim that they were part of a permanent slide into authoritarianism.
All those restrictions have now been lifted.

In your other post you're basically making the point that Covid is only dangerous for old and/or ill people. Well...yeah. But that's a lot of people.
So what should the response have been? "Fuck 'em?"
I believe elsewhere you've said that the response should have been shield the vulnerable, the rest of us get on with it. I sort of agree in principle, but in practice in a complicated interconnected society I'd suggest that's not easy to do.

Everything you have said above is the stock response to issues you yourself replaced to avoid talking about the issues I actually raised. It's psychotic.

What have I avoided talking about?

[Niall_Quinn]

What did you avoid? Well, come on, you are the one avoiding it so why ask me?

But, okay. The discussion was about the relationship between the government and the governed and the bills and laws that radically alter that relationship. And the 14 trillion dollars.

You turned it into another round about the current state of restrictions. Are you allowed or not allowed, etc? When the restrictions are in place you say - "The Data".

When the restrictions are lifted you say - Not very good authoritarians

And that's ALL you say. Any actual science, legal discourse, precedent, historical foundation, anything at all that doesn't impact immediate events within the square yard you occupy at any given time is of zero consideration. And yesterday never happened, only today exists and tomorrow never comes. A carefree way to live, for sure, but then you do unconscionable things like vote or have an opinion when neither act can be based on anything tangible given your truncated field of view.

So, they said you are ALLOWED to do shit now? And I say they never had the moral or lawful privilege to say such things in the first place. That's what you are avoiding and voiding. The very principles behind law, human rights, government and representation. But you have the Good Morning Britain version of things adequately covered, I guess.