When will Arteta be sacked by

[HCZ_Reborn]

most of that's right although i do think Partey at RB was because he didn't have Zin at LB and he wanted to carry on his inverted FB BS

that said there may well also have been something going on with Gabriel and he was trying to prove we didn't need him by playing White at CB, which was shown to be blatantly dumb and whether he likes it or not he simply can't undermine our defence by not playing Gabriel and Saliba as a partnership and in their best positions

his combination of rookieness, failing to see the obvious, obsession with previous-era Citeh, inability to deal with various different character types and general stubborness are a terrible combination

I don’t know but I suspect the issue with Gabriel was connected to the possibility of Arsenal selling him to one of the Saudi clubs. There was interest shown in him, and I do think the club is mindful of the fact that we’ve spent a lot of money and need to recoup some of it, which means being prepared to accept a “offer you can’t refuse” bid for even our best players, especially in light of the failure to make much money on the players we do want to sell.

I don’t think the “Rookie” thing is especially relevant, I think actually in many ways you’re better off with a young coach because they are more open to change and innovation, where as the longer a coach has been in the game the more they tend to get stuck in their ways. Arteta is a junior Guardiola, and I’m minded to think that were he coaching City whilst he might not as successful as his mentor…..they’d still be winning things. Guardiola has all the same flaws as Arteta. I think Guardiola is more extroverted but he is someone who thinks he’s more intelligent than he is, as I say his system at City is working because the players he’s had at his disposal are good enough to manage despite it’s obvious clunkiness…Guardiola not a people person, not particularly warm or friendly…hes more agressive where Arteta is passive aggressive but both are stubborn and inflexible. Why it’s taken him so long to win the champions league with City and why he never succeeded in doing so with Barcelona.
Arteta will go to City and he will probably do ok there depending on whether their spending ability remains largely unchanged.

What we needed was someone who was a cross between Klopp and Wenger, Klopp knew when he came to Liverpool that a number of players he had at his disposal were just not good enough but he didn’t just freeze them out…he incorporated them into his team so either he made full use of them or by the time it came to upgrade them they hadn’t been bench warming for a year and totally depleted of value to buying clubs.

If Arteta doesn’t rate you, it’s very hard almost impossible to change his mind, and if you’re not worthy of playing in his team you’re not worthy of his time. You’ll see that a lot of people who left simply stated that they never even had a single conversation with Arteta between the time they joined and the time they left.

I don’t think he likes what we might call difficult players but ultimately he will tolerate them as long as they are useful (which he did with Auba). Rightly or wrongly he regarded Xhaka as one of our better players, although that said i think he wanted an upgrade on him in 2021, but when he struggled to get in the player he wanted to replace him (Manuel Locatelli) he panicked and convinced Xhaka to sign a new deal.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It isn't.

Then I would suggest you spend more time actually watching games and gathering an evidence base for yourself before simply dismissing the arguments of others. Because let’s be fair that’s what you’re doing, it’s not just you disagree your opening gambit was that it was utterly crazy to even discuss replacing Arteta where we are at the moment. Which I’ve no doubt you’d be more than capable of providing a substantive argument in favour of, but not without actually watching the games

[Letters]

Then I would suggest you spend more time actually watching games and gathering an evidence base for yourself before simply dismissing the arguments of others. Because let’s be fair that’s what you’re doing, it’s not just you disagree your opening gambit was that it was utterly crazy to even discuss replacing Arteta where we are at the moment. Which I’ve no doubt you’d be more than capable of providing a substantive argument in favour of, but not without actually watching the games

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

When your opinion is a) based on a far smaller evidentiary base b) utterly dismissive of the opinions of others, which as I’ve said seems far more about your risk adverse small c conservative mindset (which was very much the case with your reticence to replace Wenger back in the day) rather than actually being convinced by the coach. Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and “we have no guarantees of getting someone better”.

Fine I don’t think there’s even anything necessary wrong with believing that, but your diagnosis that it ain’t broke comes from watching match highlights and seeing the league table early on….rather than the performances which you must admit whether people here are pro or anti Arteta are raising a hell of a lot of red flags.

I accept that my argument at the beginning of the season was histrionic, but even that is tempered with a couple of injuries to key players and it could really all go down the shitter in a big way. And I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that Arteta has peaked in what he’s able to achieve for us, and that a club of ambition should at the very least have an eye on an upgrade.

[Letters]

your diagnosis that it ain’t broke.

That isn't my diagnosis.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That isn't my diagnosis.

Then what exactly are you arguing? You’re far from stupid….you know that I’m not making an unsubstantiated and baseless claim when I’m talking about the massive expenditure this club has seen under Mikel Arteta. When I say broke I don’t mean creases to be ironed out, I mean serious flaws so either our definition of broken is very different or I’m at a loss as to what your objection is

[Mac76]

I watch the highlights, I know the results. I know what the league table says.
The suggestion that I have to watch the games to form an opinion, and have no right to one without doing that is utter bullshit.

tbf highlights really don't tell you much, I know that from watching the games and then watching the highilghts - I've seen gamese where we were pretty crap for 80 minutes but then have the highlights make us look really good because it's the ten acculmulated minutes where we actaully did anything worthwhile

[HCZ_Reborn]

tbf highlights really don't tell you much, I know that from watching the games and then watching the highilghts - I've seen gamese where we were pretty crap for 80 minutes but then have the highlights make us look really good because it's the ten acculmulated minutes where we actaully did anything worthwhile

Yep you don’t really get a full flavour from match of the day and even less of one from the snippet highlight reels that Skysports produce.

Of course you could argue that even at our best, there were games where the spells of brilliance are deceptive and much more of the game is a turgid nothing….and I’d say that’s largely reflective of our away game performances so far. Largely in control but stifled when it comes to the all important affair of putting the ball in the net. Though I suspect that’s as much because Everton, Palace and Bournemouth showed zero ambition and Lens decided to go for it (though as I said to someone earlier even with the players we had on the pitch, out of position if we’d just continue to soak up the pressure rather than try and play on the front foot with zero space to operate in…we’d have torn them to pieces like wet tissue)

[Marc Overmars]

My main gripe with Arteta is his weird lack of ability to react to things in game. It doesn’t matter how things are playing out I feel like the changes he makes are already pre-programmed. The lack of flexibility will prevent him from being considered an elite coach. Though because of his links with Pep and general reputation in the game he’ll still probably land on his feet whenever his career takes him.

I think he has definitely earned the right to see this out. It’s difficult to justify removing a coach who has overseen quite a significant transformation of the club and team itself. Let’s not forget how fucking awful it was in the dying days of Wenger and the years that followed. You only have to look at the posts here to see how much apathy there was.

Ultimately, we don’t have an Abramovich style owner so we’re never going to be a club who won’t accept not winning. So whoever the coach is, will most likely be given all the time they need until something goes disastrously wrong. I do think the expectation to succeed is fair though now, 4 years is a long time and with the money we’ve spent in recent seasons a league title is definitely something that should feel within reach.

[Letters]

When your opinion is a) based on a far smaller evidentiary base

Your far larger "evidentiary base" has led you to basically get every prediction wrong so far this season. Forgive me if I don't have much confidence in your 20:20 foresight.

utterly dismissive of the opinions of others

Which I haven't been. I've repeatedly acknowledged there are some concerns this season. Performances haven't been great. Some of Arteta's decisions have been suspect.
What I find silly is this thread firing up again after every bad result.
You're the one being dismissive with your "you don't even watch the games". I've always found that sort of fan snobbishness ridiculous. I had a season ticket from 90-91 up till around 2012 and I never considered myself "better" than other fans who weren't able to watch games or having more of a right to an opinion than others.

Most of your arguments seem to come from either “if it ain’t broke don’t fix it” and “we have no guarantees of getting someone better”.

Wrong and correct respectively. The latter is true - changing manager is by definition a disruptive thing. Doing that to a team which just finished in their best position since 2016 and have, overall, started this season well would be madness in my opinion. Obviously it depends how we do this season. If we don't even finish Top 4 then it's a different conversation given how we did last year and how much money we've spent.
With regard to the former, my position is not that "it ain't broke", I dispute whether we know whether it's broke yet.
Last season we massively overperformed given pre-season expectations. We're less than a 20% of the way into the season, that isn't enough to tell you much. If we'd lost every game so far then OK, I'd agree that was a pretty good indication that all is not well. Everton, I think we can agree, are not going to be champions this year. It's far too early to tell much about our long term prospects. I completely disagree that "there’s probably been enough games played now to get an idea of where we are likely to be."

We'd scored 2 more goals at this stage last year. I'm not convinced that's enough of a difference to be significant.
We've actually conceded one fewer than last year at this stage. And we have only one less point.
While we're here, Spurs started the season with P7 W5 D2 L0 last year and were 2nd, level with City and 1 point behind us.
Was that enough games to indicate where they were "likely to be"?

I take the point about performances but seasons are long. Feelings change. They change from game to game. After the Bournemouth game I was pretty upbeat. The CL game pissed me off. If we lose to City, as I fear we will, then that will be a big indication that things aren't going to go well this season. Which may sound like a bit of a contradiction to my above thought that you can only really tell long term, but games like this are big tests of where you are as a club. These are the games we have to be standing up in, if we don't again then I don't know if I'll hop on the Arteta Out bandwagon but it will set the alarm bells ringing loudly.

I don’t think it’s crazy at all to believe that Arteta has peaked in what he’s able to achieve for us, and that a club of ambition should at the very least have an eye on an upgrade.

I don't think any of that is crazy. I just think it's too early to say definitively that we've gone backwards. I mean, we could go top at the weekend. Or it could be another failure to stand up in a big 6 pointer. I do fear the latter but the game hasn't happened yet. Just quit straw-manning me.